What is memory? On the modern transition from the ontitudinal to the mental (Volume 7)
With God’s help
Following the days of remembrance (for the Holocaust and for the fallen IDF soldiers) that have now passed, various reflections have arisen in me regarding the essence of memory and the importance of remembrance. I ask your forgiveness in advance for delving into areas that seem ostensibly mystical, but necessity will not be spared.
On the sanctity of memory
In today's State of Israel, almost nothing is sacred (and that's a good thing). But it is precisely against this backdrop that the sacred attitude we give to memory stands out. These two days of remembrance are the only holy days in our public life. Anything that offends them immediately provokes irritated and hurtful Pavlovian reactions. Every year we are bombarded with in-depth articles about Haredim who do not stand when the siren is blown or when the national anthem is sung, and the feeling is as if the secular or Zionist has desecrated the sacred. The Haredim rub their hands with delight and say that now perhaps the secular public will be able to understand why they are offended by the desecration of Shabbat or Yom Kippur (there is quite a bit of demagoguery in this claim, but there is still something to it, and that's okay).
Why is it important to remember?
Why is it really so important to remember? What is sacred about this memory? We can enter into the question of the importance of history in general ("History of high need", as Yosef Avivi famously said), but that is not our topic. The question is more specific: Why is it important to remember the fallen/perished?
At first glance, the question is outrageous. After all, they gave their lives for us, so why shouldn't we remember them? But this is not true regarding the victims of the Holocaust. The vast majority of them did not give their lives, not for us or at all. Their lives were taken from them against their will. Therefore, it does not seem that we have a duty of gratitude towards them. The same applies to the victims of hostilities. They were simply killed by terrorists and did not give their lives for us. This is very unfortunate and painful, of course, but I do not see a duty of gratitude here. [1] Regarding the fallen IDF soldiers, it is not simple either. A significant number of them were killed in various ways that are not related to giving their lives. But let's assume that this is not true for most of them. Many of the fallen did give their lives for us and we owe them a debt of gratitude.
Moreover, gratitude, even where it does exist, seems to be an insufficient explanation. Do they enjoy it when we remember them? After all, they are no longer here. And do their souls in the treasuries above look down and check to see if we still remember? Does it get sad when it sees that we don't? How does remembering constitute gratitude?
Well, then perhaps the value of memory is instrumental. Memory is a means to achieve good goals. For example, remembering the Holocaust will help prevent another Holocaust. According to this proposal, memory is not a value in itself (according to Leibowitz, values are always goals, not means)[2]. But this does not explain the remembrance of the fallen. What does it come to prevent or achieve? Another instrumental explanation tries to anchor the duty to remember by saying that memory helps the bereaved families. Public participation in their grief makes things easier for them and shows them that the sacrifice of their loved ones is valued, and therefore was not in vain. So is there a duty here between one person and another towards the families? If that is so, then what about the Holocaust? There too, remembrance is an obligation to help the families who remain? Does remembrance show that their sacrifice was not in vain? One of the problems there is that their sacrifice was completely in vain. Didn't the victims of hostility simply fall in vain? All of this is really implausible. And what about those who have no family? There is a feeling that one must come and appear at the funeral (see the case of Shawn Carmeli, a lone soldier who fell in "Protective Edge," and the well-known song by Ariel Horowitz about 20,000 mourners who came to the funeral. It is true that that man had family abroad). Who did it help? Why is it important?
Now the answer is that gratitude is itself a good quality and therefore it is important that we work on acquiring it and assimilating it into our souls. It is done for ourselves and not for someone or something else. Although I agree with this, it seems to me that this does not capture the essence of the matter. People feel that they have some kind of obligation towards the fallen themselves. And of course an indication of this is the victims of the Holocaust and others for whom there is no obligation of gratitude, and yet there is a sense of obligation of remembrance, or even a sense of sanctity towards them.
Well, then perhaps the conclusion that this is a deep-rooted nonsense is really warranted. The fact that many feel this way doesn't mean much. There is no rule as to how many, since the majority does quite a bit of nonsense. I have a feeling that in many cases, precisely when the majority says something, it is probably a mistake. Although these things are meant for situations in which people justify their positions. There you will usually hear hair-raising reasonings about their nonsense. But when people feel something based on their own ignorance, I have faith that in most cases there should be something to it. It is at least worth checking. In many cases, people have good intuition, they feel or experience something, although when they try to rationalize it, they often end up with nonsense. People don't always manage to figure themselves out.
If so, there is something about memory that says I must. The feeling of many people that there is an obligation to remember is worth examining. Although the explanations seem forced and artificial, which deepens the difficulty and the need to try and examine it again. It seems to me that the explanation I will offer below, correct or not, represents well the feeling of many of us. But before that, I must dwell on another possibility.
On need and value[3]
If there is indeed no good reason for the duty to remember, perhaps we can see memory as a necessity rather than a value. We have a need to remember people and feel their absence. If we don't feel this, we have a pang of conscience, and therefore it is important for us to remember them.
This suggestion is probably correct, but it is important to understand that its meaning is that remembrance is not obligatory. There is no value in remembering the dead/fallen, but people have a need to do so. For health. And who does not have such a need? Let him not do so. In such a perception, there is no room for criticism and judgment towards those who do not remember. They lack nothing in the ethical and value sense. They are simply structured differently from us. They lack this need, and nothing more. I doubt whether such a perception correctly describes the feelings of most people I know. The vibration of holiness that accompanies these days does not reflect a purely psychological need. People see it as a value. They may be wrong, but that is what they think.[4] The question I am addressing here is what this common intuition is based on?
Male Amalek
First, I will extend my testimony a little. In the parsha, when the Torah comes out, it is commanded upon us (Deuteronomy 25:19):
And it shall be, when your God gives you rest from all your enemies round about in the land which your God gives you, that you shall utterly destroy the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget:
God Himself also promises us in Parashat Beshalach (Exodus 17:14):
And Jacob said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven:
What is this remembrance that we are commanded to erase and that God promises to erase? Furthermore, we are commanded (in the same verse) not to forget. This is a specific command to remember and not forget what Amalek did, so how does this reconcile with the command to erase his memory? There have been many sermons on this matter, about Amalek in the heart and the remembrance in forgetfulness and other strange Hasidic discourse. But it seems to me that the explanation is completely different.
Rashi in Parashat Ki Titze writes:
You shall blot out the male of Amalek – from man to woman, from child to suckling, from ox to sheep (1 Samuel 15:3). Let not the name of Amalek be mentioned even on the beast, to say, this beast was like Amalek:
It seems that he senses that there is a problem here. He explains that the memory in question is not something mental (memory) but objects. It is true that we must remember Amalek, but at the same time we must erase everything that remains of him (whose name is mentioned). The meaning of this is that in biblical language, the "memory" of a thing is actually a part of it. The memory of Amalek is something of Amalek, and not a memory of Amalek. The memory of Amalek must be erased but his memory must be preserved. In this way, we have essentially transferred the term "memory" from the mental plane (memory) to the onto-entity plane (remnant, part).
Back to the duty of remembrance
If this is indeed the meaning of the term "remember", perhaps we can learn something from this about the meaning of memory in general. When we bring someone or something to mind, it is of course a mental action. Something in our brain begins to work, and an image of the remembered object or some experience related to it is created in us. But perhaps there is something deeper here, an ontological one: when we remember, there is something within us, a "remember" of that object, which is right there in our consciousness. When we remember someone, we are, as it were, conjuring something of him and bringing him back to our realms, thus bringing him back to life in some sense.
If we adopt this strange concept, the duty of remembrance takes on a more significant meaning. In remembering, we bring back to life something (a memory) of someone who has died. The duty to remember is nothing more than an obligation to somehow exclude his death, since something of him still exists when he is remembered.
Isn't this a mere metaphor?
Where does this mystical perception come from? Isn't it a mere metaphor? The words are reminiscent, of course, of Moti Hamer's Schmaltzian and somewhat catchy song (performed by Hava Alberstein), "One Human Tissue":[5]
When I die, something from me
Will die in you.
When you die, something of you will remain in me.
Will die with you.
Because we are all one living human tissue.
And if one of us goes from our place
Something is dying in us –
And something, stayed with him.
The poem says that something from one person is in another person. But everyone thinks that this is at most a metaphor. If we are materialists (those who believe in the existence of matter only), then it is clear that no part of the deceased person remains with us or elsewhere (perhaps different molecules of him that have been scattered throughout the universe). But if we are dualists, that is, we believe that there is something more in a person beyond matter, then there are mental components that are part of him. Where do these go when he dies? It depends on whether we see the soul as one single entity whose entire contents disappear or go somewhere after death. But there is certainly room for the perception that the memories, thoughts, and ideas that were inside the person are actually part of him. This is part of his mental component, and in this sense, when we recall them in our memory, they actually leave something of the deceased with us even after he has gone to his earthly home. It is likely that when we remember what the person looks like physically, it is certainly not part of him. But when memory brings to our mind ideas and thoughts of the deceased, then part of his mental component ("his memory") is truly with us.
In the Shimoni Bible, Kohelet Remez Tetikaft, it is written:
For the living know that they will die. These are the righteous who, even in their death, are called alive, as it is said, "And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a living man." And Benaiah the son of a living man, and all the rest of Alma, are not the sons of my dead, but rather the son of a living man who, even in his death, is called alive. And the dead know nothing. These are the wicked who, even in their life, are called dead, as it is said, "And you are a profane wicked prince of Israel."
The righteous are called alive because their ideas and thoughts remain behind them.
And in the second lesson (good lesson) in Parashat Exodus, Chapter 1, Section 1, it is written:
How many times did he mention the names of the tribes in the way of their ancestors' affection, and their own affection, therefore it is said that a name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of birth, which are different from the praise of a person after his death, for people recount his praise and good deeds, but on the day of his birth he has no praise or greatness, for the Egyptians mourned for our father Jacob seventy days, since the righteous, even in their death, are crowned with life:
The righteous, even in their death, are called alive because their good name and good deeds are the part of them that remains alive.
Therefore, the Jerusalemite says in Shekelim P.2:5:
Therefore, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel says, "They do not make souls for the righteous, their words are their memory."
The memory of the righteous is their "remembering," and above we have already seen that this is a remnant that remains of them.
It is possible that this also gives another meaning to Rosh Hashana, which is called in the Bible and among us "the Day of Remembrance," since on this day our memory rises before God, the Blessed One. Does this mean that on that day He remembers us? After all, He remembers everything all the time. More likely, the intention is that our memory rises before Him, meaning that a part of us is with Him. On that day we gain some kind of closeness to Him, some "reminder" of us is with Him.
If so, it is not necessarily a metaphor. In a dualistic view, there is room for the belief that memory is a "memory" of the dead that remains with us, and remembering revives it in some sense. Memory has an ontological dimension and not just a mental one. It seems to me that in a statement of this kind the gap between metaphor and metaphysics is quite narrow. The distinction is no longer sharp.
It is important to understand that anyone who insists on seeing this as a mere metaphor, meaning that the memory is not a remnant of the remembered in the memoryr, will find it difficult to reconcile this with the view that sees value in memory. Anyone who believes this should adopt a view of memory as a necessity and not as a value.
The question of the existence of collectives
When we look again at the term "Zecher Amalek" we see that "Amalek" is the Amalekite people (or Amalek son of Eliphaz son of Esau, the father of this people). Zecher Amalek is a remnant of that people. If the Torah tells us to wipe out the Amalekites and calls them Zecher Amalek, this means that it sees them as part of the Amalekite people. This brings us back to the question of the existence of collectives, which I have discussed briefly. In the column "The Right and Left's Attitude to Racism" (On this website, 6.5.2016).[6] In essence, there is an expression here of a collectivist view. The Amalekite people are some entity, and the people who make it up are a part ("memory") of it. This is a relationship parallel to the relationship between people's memories and themselves.
Interestingly, the modern or postmodern world does not tend to see collectives as existing entities, just as it does not see memories as parts of people. The modern view treats memory as a kind of metaphor. In its view, memory is a mental state or capacity that occurs in the mind of the rememberer and not something ontic in the world itself. Similarly, there is a tendency to see the collective at most as a useful fiction, rather than as a distinct entity. In this view, the individual is the entity that really exists in the world, and the collective is nothing more than a useful fiction.[7]
The connection between the two processes: the transition from the ontic to the mental
These are two processes with the same structure: objects that were previously perceived as existing entities, that is, as belonging to the ontological plane, are abstracted and transferred to the mental plane. Memory is now perceived as something mental and not as an entity, and the collective is also perceived as a definition that exists only in our minds, a fiction, and not as an entity that exists in the world itself.
There is a connection between these two processes. In order to see that the organic whole has something beyond the details that compose it, we must assume the existence of a soul. Something that connects the collection of molecules into a total organic entity. Without it, it is a collection of molecules (or perhaps actually quarks). Similarly, with regard to the collective, in order to assume that it is something (Amalek) beyond the collection of the details that compose it (the Amalekites), we must assume that there is something that unites them into one organism. The Hegelian soul that transforms the details into one national whole. In the Bible, this is seen as a function of the king, who is called "One of the People" (which makes the people one). Perhaps this is also the function of God who transforms the universe into an organic whole instead of a collection of details (as if the soul of the world).[8] Therefore, the distinction in the existence of a mental component in man, that is, seeing it as belonging to the ontological plane, is similar to the distinction that the collective is a being in itself (beyond the details that compose it).
The willingness to see abstract things as entities has been declining over the generations. In the past, these things were taken for granted as entities, and today we tend to see them as subjective fictions. Ironically, even though modern science is becoming increasingly abstract, the modern approach still holds that rationality requires not accepting the existence of intangible (or non-entities) entities. If once the one responsible for the collapse of deserted houses was a demon (whose name is Shaya, and about whom it is said, "and Shaya strikes the door." See BK 21:1 and Bashi there), today the one responsible for this is the second law of thermodynamics. But a law only describes what is done; it itself does not and cannot do anything. Thus the law of gravity describes the phenomenon of attraction, but the one who causes it is the force of gravity (which is some kind of being and not a law. The law only describes the manner in which this force operates). If once the feeling of fear at night or in the desert when we are there alone was perceived as a result of fear of harm from demons (who are some abstract beings) who roam those places, today it is a mental-psychological phenomenon without an onto-objective root. Thus the evil inclination is perceived as a type of being that resides within us, while today almost all of us perceive it as a tendency in the soul, that is, as a mental phenomenon.
Frank L. Baum describes this process beautifully in the following passage from his story The Wizard of Oz:
"Aunt Em told me that all the witches died out many years ago." "Who is Aunt Em?" inquired the little old woman. "She is my aunt who lives in Kansas, where I came from." The Witch of the North seemed to think for a while, her head bowed and her eyes fixed on the ground. Then she looked up and said, "I don't know where Kansas is, for I have never heard the name of that country before. But tell me, is it a civilized country?" "Certainly," replied Dorothy. "Then that is the reason. I think that in civilized countries there are no witches left, nor wizards, nor wizards, nor sorcerers, but, you see, civilization never came to the Land of Oz because we are cut off from all the rest of the world. That is why we still have witches and wizards among us."
So who is right? Are the ancient perceptions primitive and we should abandon them, or perhaps the obvious conclusion is that we are blind to this part of reality. Perhaps modern rationality blinds us to abstract entities. The assumption that only the tangible exists and the abstract is fiction actually blinds us and does not allow us to discern such entities, and so we give them a metaphorical interpretation. Thus, people talk about "grandfather watching over us from above" after his death, and when asked, they explain that it is only a metaphor. But the clear feeling that one gets when hearing these things is that this is a real description. People are not willing to admit that such a perception exists in them, and therefore when it arises directly, they turn it into a metaphor. But their words do not sound that way. They do seem to perceive as if there is something of the person that exists even after his death.[9]
Back to memory
Personally, I am skeptical of ontological concepts (probably because I am part of modern culture). On the other hand, the transfer to the mental does not seem obvious or necessary to me either. Sometimes it is not very convincing. There are situations in which we must recognize the existence of abstract entities, and not only in science (like the force of gravity). Entities such as a collective or a soul seem to me to be real, ontical entities, and not metaphors or mere fictions. Here I am a proud primitive. And so I also tend to interpret memory on the ontological plane, thereby returning it from the modern mental interpretation back to the ontological.
This is the explanation I offer here for the sanctity of memory and its value. There will be those who will speak of the ontic interpretation as a metaphor, but metaphors are supposed to express or symbolize something real. A metaphor is not a justification for anything. Anyone who sees value in memory and demands that others participate in it cannot rely on metaphors or linguistic phenomena in general. If memory has value, then memory is probably indeed something ontic. Our tendency to perceive it on the mental plane is a modern repression, or adherence to the demands of modern rationality, but as mentioned, this is not necessarily justified.
Dualism is not mysticism in the bad sense of the word. The feeling that I have a soul or a mental component is certain and clear to me. Although modern rationalization transfers this feeling to the realm of metaphors, as I explained in my books on the sciences of freedom, it really does not sound convincing to me. And if there is indeed a mental component in us, then there is no reason to offer an ontic interpretation of memory as well. As a dualist, I can certainly accept that this component remains in the world in some sense even after our death.
On the right and left
In the column I wrote Based on the words of Major General Yair Golan, I linked these perceptions to the dispute between the right and the left. I argued there that the right is based on a collectivist perspective and the left on individualism. In my book Two Carts and a Hot Air Balloon (Fourth Chapter, Chapter 2), I already discussed studies that show that the memory patterns of these two groups are different,[10] and for good reason. Memory on the right is generally collective. When remembering the fallen, they talk about their contribution to the country, the values they bequeathed to us, and the general significance of their life and death. This can be explained in light of the fact that the right is based on collectivism. Whereas the left, whose perspective is based on individualism, tends to remember the person on a personal level. Who he was, what and who he loved, what he looked like, what his tastes were, etc.
Since then, things have changed a bit, and memory has become more personal in all segments of the population. Every year, the days of remembrance for the Holocaust and for the fallen IDF soldiers take on a more personal and less collective character. This means that while the collective dimension of memory is becoming less dominant, memory is becoming more ontic. The duty to remember is no longer instrumental (so that we learn from the ways of the dead and contribute to the survival of the collective) but rather an obligation to preserve it alive, which, as mentioned, is based on an ontic perception of memory. As we have seen, this itself is based on a dualistic perception of man. The right also joins the left's pattern of memory, but not because of individualism and denial of the collective dimension, but because of reference to the dimension that remains of the dead themselves. Perhaps treating the personal is also the more correct way to preserve the collective. If we remember, we keep the dead alive, and then the collective also benefits and survives more in some sense.
And when he comes out, what does he say? May the readers forgive me for the mysticism and primitive speculation that I have allowed myself to put on the keyboard of the Baha'i Atara Kadisha...
[1] See inTribute to the victims of the attack at the Rabbi Center
[2] See, for example, the last article in his collection of articles, Faith, History and Values, which deals with the sanctity of life and the merciful death.
[3] On the relationship between needs and values, see the third part of the fourth notebook on this site.
[4] The entire fourth notebook is devoted to this type of argument, which is called a "theological" argument.
[5] The quotation is partial and without repetitions that are required by the melody.
[6] See my articles – The Right and Left's Attitude to Racism. See also my books Two Carts and a Balloon, Illumination 15, and my articles in Bazhar Yad, The problem of the relationship between the individual and the whole and the 'defensive wall' dilemma.
[7] See my article on this, "Suddenly a person wakes up in the morning and feels that he is a people and begins to walk" – on Jewish identity in our time and in general, I will introduce to.
[8] I will only comment here on the concept known as pantheism (attributed to Spinoza). It is about identifying God with the material totality in the universe. God is nothing more than the totality called the universe in its entirety. On the face of it, it is nonsense. All in all, we take this totality that we all know exists, and call it by another name. What is the difference between this and ordinary atheism? Is it just a change of name? In what sense is there faith in something here and not just a semantic game? It seems to me that the only way to give some meaning to this bizarre concept is to just assume that there is something that unites the totality in the universe to be an organism, the soul of the world, and that is God (then identifying God with the universe is roughly like saying that man's soul is himself, and not his body). Of course, if this is the meaning, then pantheism loses much of its charm, since it is about belief in God in a fairly ordinary sense. God is again something that stands beyond the world and the world is found and functions within it. So what is the difference between this and the concept of a personal God? I think it's just the subjective experience that exists with the believer in these two beliefs. In every other sense, it's semantics again. Except this time it's a semantic change of the religious perception and not of atheism as in the previous version.
[9] Another example of this can be seen in my article, Two Concepts of Myth: The New Historians, and the Rashba's Ban, Tzohar Y.
[10] See, for example, Michael Feige's article, "Let the Walking Ones Go," in Myth and Memory, David Ohana and Robert Wistrich (eds.), Kibbutz Hameuhad and Van Leer Institute, Jerusalem 2009.
Joseph L.:
Regarding Note 8:
It seems to me that a pantheistic view does require belief in an impersonal God, and it is not just a subjective matter. After all, Spinoza abolished the separation between Creator and creature by saying that all of existence (the degree of expansion + the degree of thought + an infinite number of other dimensions that man does not perceive) is God. In this great organism, there is no meaning to will or personality, for God does not speak to himself, therefore he is not personal but only functional (because Spinoza advocated the determinism of God and the Qo of man, which is nothing but a mode of it).
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Rabbi:
I didn't understand the comment. As I explained there, to the best of my understanding, identifying all of reality with God is simply atheism with a slight change of name. Unless you see God as the soul of reality (and don't actually identify Him with reality itself). But then you get closer to what is now called panentheism (= the world within God), and also to a personal perception of it. I remember an article by the late Yosef ben Shlomo on the subject of panentheism.
——
Joseph L.:
Bergman (in History of Philosophy) and Yosef Ben Shlomo (Chapters in the Teachings of Baruch Spinoza) emphasize that when Spinoza identified God with nature, he did not mean nature in its narrow sense, that is, material reality, but rather the totality of being with all its dimensions. I think that this is where the difference between pantheism and atheism lies. Spinoza believed that both material reality (the degree of expansion) and spiritual reality (the degree of thought) are both expressions of one entity, God. In contrast, atheism does not require a correlation between these levels (and if it is materialist, then there are no other levels at all). And as mentioned, seeing reality as an expression of God erases the Creator/created separation and with it the personality of God. Pantheism, in my opinion, does maintain this separation and can therefore maintain a perception of a personal God.
——
Rabbi:
What you wrote seems to me exactly the same as what I wrote, except that according to you, material reality is only some aspect of God. So what? At most, it means that this atheism is not materialistic (what some call panentheism). I have never understood the discourse on pantheism, panentheism, and other nonsense. All of this seems to me to be meaningless wordplay, and therefore I do not think there is any point in arguing about it. To me, this is similar to arguing about whether the Lebanese we see in the cloud is the cloud, or whether there are additional dimensions in the cloud (or in the entire set of clouds) of which the Lebanese is only the material dimension, but the cloud is the entire set, and therefore there is no cloud and no Lebanese. Forgive me, but things are getting boring…
Amir Jose:
After the explanation you gave for the concept in note 8, you added that there is consequently no special difference between the pantheistic concept and the ordinary concept of God, that He is actually separate from the world (but can still influence it). In the lecture you gave on reductionism, whether or not it is simple, you noted that the view of the Lithuanian school is more to see God as something that is separate from the world, transcendent but can still influence it of course, and that this world is nothing but an experience that must be distanced from.
In light of this, I actually see a lot of potential for difference, not only on the ideological level but also on the practical level, following the new meaning you gave to the parable of God and the world for the human soul and body.
I think both you and I know that I am not my body and that I exist beyond my body and can of course control my body (so far the Lithuanian perception) but still when you want to create a (truly transcendent) connection with me, connect with me or simply be with me, you do it precisely through my body! You shake my hands and speak into my ears and are near my body (not to mention the deepest connection between a man and a woman) and all of this is considered that you are creating a connection with my very real core.
So if we understand the pantheistic or panentheistic view in this way, there is a lot of room for worshiping God through action and use in the world itself, and not just through studying the Torah or studying the very concept of God, etc. Just as many people think that if they want to grasp something about God or get closer to the Creator, they do so only through the mind (and I have heard those who excuse the practical commandments as a way to teach and establish impressions in the mind), on the contrary, the way to get closer to Him and to cling to Him will be through this material world and everything in it, through the Temple and through offering sacrifices and through prayer in certain places such as synagogues or the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, and the very practical action that you take means that you have created a connection with Him, or in other words, you have clinged to Him.
What do you think?
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Rabbi:
It is clear that the practical implications of metaphysical concepts are not necessary. We are talking about correlations, not a necessary logical connection.
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Amir Jose:
So I didn't understand your words correctly the first time... If there really are no necessary consequences from metaphysical reality for how we act in the world, then not only is the discussion about the pantheistic or panentheistic or panpenpantheistic view unimportant, but any discussion dealing with metaphysics is meaningless with regard to what is done at the end of the day.
At most, it is an activity for leisure hours when it is impossible to study Halacha or Gemara for some reason. Or alternatively, it is therapy for those people who have difficulty understanding what and why they are doing what they are doing, who they are standing in front of when they pray, etc.
——
Rabbi:
Here you have jumped too far. There is a point in discussing non-essential connections as well. In fact, there are no essential connections at all in the world of ideas. For example, China is a communist country and yet it runs a fairly capitalist economy (not completely, of course). And Peron's Argentina was extreme right-wing and ran a fairly socialist economy. Is that why you think there is no point in discussing the connection between the right and capitalism and communism? Even the conclusion that the connection is not essential is a conclusion from this discussion, and after all, you had a point in conducting it.
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Amir Jose:
I was hoping you would say something like that, because in my humble opinion there is benefit in talking about metaphysical reality and I'm glad you think so too. But still, you didn't just point out that the connection is not necessary or correlative. I believe in my humble opinion (correct me if I'm wrong) that you said that because you are taking an approach that tries to separate theology from halacha as much as possible. I do, however, unlike you, think that not only is there benefit to the above talk, but I also believe that after that talk there should also be practical consequences. For example, if I understood that there is not just one God but several gods who rule the world and they created it and me, then I must show favor to all of them and not just one of them, and in addition I must fight against all those who disbelieve in those gods and decide to follow only one god and abandon the work of the others.
This sounds simple to me, and is much more consistent with common sense than consciously ignoring metaphysical reality. Just as when I work for a certain value I take into account (in the language of calculation) physical reality (do not put your hand in the fire, lest you be saved, and your souls be saved), so too will I take into account metaphysical reality when I work for values or needs or desires, and in truth, thousands of examples can be given on the subject.
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Rabbi:
If I have reached a metaphysical conclusion, I have no interest in ignoring it. But two things must be examined: 1. Is this indeed my conclusion (and how certain I am of it). 2. Does this conclusion concern the halakha or not? In many cases, it does not concern the halakha, and therefore there is no need to include it there.
You wrote in this language:
"The willingness to see abstract things as realities is decreasing with the generations. In the past, these things were taken for granted as realities, and today we tend to perceive them as subjective fictions."
Ironically, although modern science is becoming increasingly abstract, the modern approach nevertheless holds that rationality requires not accepting the existence of intangible (or non-tangible) beings."
I don't understand the irony here. After all, abstraction is exactly that: stripping an "idea" or "concept" of its "tangible" part,
And thus leave it as something that is not perceived outside the subject?
After all, the definition of a "concept" is "that which exists only in perception"?
I didn't understand the question. The modern world is becoming more abstract and recognizing the existence of abstract beings (I mean scientists, not philosophers, many of whom doubt the existence of theoretical beings), yet modern man tends not to accept the existence of abstract beings and not beings. They accept the existence of a gravitational field or an electric field only because they see the results of their actions, but they don't recognize the existence of demons even though they see the results of their actions.
Okay. I didn't know there was a difference between scientists and philosophers. I tend to think like the latter.
I look at "gravitational field" as a concept ("useful fiction" as you say).
That is, the "there is" here is only the actual objects and the distant minority between them, and the whole story of "mass" creating "force" or "curving space/time" is only an "intellectual sorting and arrangement" ('arrangement' in the sense of before and after, which is called "cause and effect") between the parts of the actual event (object, place, time), and the concepts (force, mass, curvature) are the 'names' of the parts of this arrangement.
So here is our point of debate. In your opinion, the entire search for gravitons is a waste of money (billions) to no avail. The graviton is a particle that carries the force of gravity, but in your opinion there is no such force. This is just our fiction that describes the observed phenomena. The chance of it being found is zero. By the way, the same was true for the other fields, and look, it's a wonder, they usually found the particles that were predicted to be found...
Not that I'm an expert on the subject (I only know about it from reading here and there), but I really read about gravitons not long ago, and I was very puzzled:
What is meant by "gravitational"? Does it mean that the particle "grabs" the object and "pulls" it toward the floor?
Second question: What have we gained? We still haven't explained what the force itself is, we've only "placed" it on a subject. And what's wrong with that if it doesn't have a subject?
I would be very grateful if you could clarify this matter for me (as much as is possible to explain to the people of Israel in this field).
In physics, a distinction is made between particles that carry a force/field and particles on which the force/field acts. The best example is photons. The photon is a particle that carries the electromagnetic field/force. When it hits particles, it acts on them, and thus the effect of the electromagnetic field is created. If the electromagnetic field were just our fiction to describe the electromagnetic field, then there would be no photons in the world. The equivalent for the gravitational force is gravitons. The particles with mass are the particles on which the force acts. The gravitons are the particles that carry the force (that exert it).
The accepted assumption in physics is that there is no effect at a distance, and therefore if two distant masses exert a force on each other, there must be something mediating between them, that is, transmitting the force. And this is where most physicists differ from many philosophers of science. Philosophers toy with the idea that theoretical entities do not exist but are useful fictions for us. Physicists assume for granted that these entities exist (in one form or another). It is clear to me that the physicists are right, and the philosophers simply do not know what they are talking about. There are very good arguments in favor of the matter. One argument in favor of the reliability of our generalizations (that theoretical entities are examples of its products) is found here (at the end):
https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%AA%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9D/
Thank you very much. I'll take a look.
Michi:
In physics, a distinction is made between particles that carry a force/field and particles on which the force/field acts.
Israel:
Three things were found: 1- the force, 2- the particle carrying it, 3- the particle acted upon by them.
1. I understand that "force" is the physical "push" that we are all familiar with, and that there is no other "force" besides this. Is this true?
2. I understand that "carrying" a force also means that the subject is "accelerated" or "driven" by the force, and this causes it to move to another place, where it hits another subject particle and "transfers" the force to it, and then the second one begins to move, until it also encounters a third particle, and so on, until the target particle "on which the force/field acts" (as you put it). Is this correct?
3. Is there a difference in types between a subject particle and a target particle, or is the difference between them only in relation to their "role" in a given event?
Michi:
The photon is a particle that carries the electromagnetic field/force.
When it hits the particles, it acts on them, and thus the effect of the electromagnetic field is created.
Israel:
4. I understand that this "action" is, as I wrote above, the "transfer" of force from one particle to its companion. This means that there is only one "action": the "transfer" of force from one particle to another. Is this correct?
Michi:
The equivalent for the force of gravity is gravitons.
Israel:
5. I understand that every force has a "direction", meaning that it "pushes" in a certain direction (this direction is what determines the direction of motion of the particle carrying it). Is this true?
If all of this is true, then I don't understand:
A. How does mass create force?
B. Even if we assume this, this force has a direction, so from the MNP: if it is directed from one object (with mass) towards the second object (between which there is an attraction), then when it reaches it it should have pushed it (and thus moved it away) instead of pulling it?
And if it is directed into the attracting object, how is this force transferred to another particle outside it? And how is it that the graviton begins to "travel" and move away from the attracting mass, when it supposedly should have been attracted and absorbed into it?
Michi:
Philosophers toy with the idea that theoretical beings don't exist but are useful fictions for us. It's clear to me that the physicists are right, and the philosophers simply don't know what they're talking about.
Israel:
If I've understood correctly so far, we find that every scientist's explanation is based on terms that he does not claim to explain.
And they are: the "particle" (the "is"), the "force", the "place", the "movement", and the "transfer of force".
I understand that philosophers are trying to deepen the understanding of these concepts, and define them differently, so that according to their understanding of them, it will be possible to describe the phenomenon more "easily" (albeit in a more abstract way), that is, without having to add (invent) new objects (subject particle), but rather with a different "composition" of their deeper concepts. Isn't that right?
I assume (and ask your opinion) that the photons (or other particles) that the scientists "found" (as you testify), were not really "seen" by their eyes. When they say they "found" them, it means that physical results (phenomena) that were predicted by the explanation of the photons, and that constitute "proof" of their existence, occurred. If so, philosophers could argue about this too, and offer a different explanation based on their deeper understanding of the basic terms.
By the way, it seems to me (although, again, I don't understand much about the subject), that the explanation of the "curvature" of space/time is a more philosophical explanation than the explanation of gravitons, and it is not needed for them. Is this true?
One last comment: I was convinced by your words about the reliability of scientific generalizations. And yet, as far as I understand, the Bible says nothing about their nature.
Even if I consider generalization merely an intellectual arrangement of concepts, I can still place great faith in it and its predictions.
I believe (by the power of induction) that this description also correctly describes future phenomena.
You are looking at the force-carrying particles in a somewhat simplistic way. There is no physical description that explains how the force-carrying particle exerts the force on the real particle. It is a fundamental fact that it exerts it. Even if there were such an explanation, it would be in terms of additional instances or events, and you could again ask how they work. In the end, we stop with fundamental facts.
Philosophers have not found any alternative explanation. They are just wondering whether the explanation that scientists have found is a claim about the world or only about ourselves. There is no debate here between two options. The distinction between scientists and philosophers is also mine, so don't quote it as a known fact. But it is a correct description of the situation for most scientists/philosophers, as I understand it.
You can of course believe what you want, but belief in a generalization is no more founded than belief in the existence of theoretical entities. If you reject the latter, it is not clear why you embrace the former. In general, a generalization without entities contradicts the principle of causality, according to which every event has a cause. On the other hand, your perception of a physical event as such has no cause. It simply happens and that is it, but there is nothing that causes it. For example, bodies move without there being anything that moves them (= the force of gravity).
Michi:
You can of course trust what you want, but trust in generalization is no more well-founded than trust in the existence of theoretical entities.
If you reject the second, it is not clear why you embrace the first.
Israel:
Simply because (as you explained very well in the article) empirical reality tells us that our generalizations are correct (this is also a generalization).
But I have no indication that theoretical beings exist outside of us.
Michi:
In general, generalization without entities contradicts the principle of causality.
After all, according to him, every event has a cause, and in contrast, in your view, no physical event has a cause.
It just happens, but there is nothing that causes it. For example, bodies move without there being anything moving them (= the force of gravity).
Israel:
I am trying to argue that if the philosopher succeeds in describing the "physical" event in abstract terms,
The principle of causality would also hold in the abstract. The cause would not have to exist in the physical sense.
For example, if the philosopher succeeds in showing that space and time exist only in our intuition (as Kant claims),
He could say that even movement (which is simply a change in space/time) does not exist outside of our consciousness.
And yet he wouldn't have to find a reason for the movement that "exists" physically.
If he adds to this that mass is nothing more than a "point concentration" of space/time (that's what I read some people say, although I didn't understand),
Because then the body itself does not exist except in our consciousness.
True, now I have nothing to base such an explanation on, and it is nothing but speculation,
Still, personally, I prefer to wonder along the lines of: "What is motion, and how is it possible?", rather than asking: "Where is the graviton?".
And yes, if it were up to me, I would direct scientific investigation in this direction.
Even what has already been "proven" (photons) does not convince me.
In my opinion, this only postpones the request for understanding to another place (how the photon is created, and what its properties are).
This reminds me of the question of whether proving a mathematical result by a computer is considered proof or not.
As I understand it, it is not. Because proof is not just a means of verifying and ensuring that the theory can be trusted,
It also serves to understand the phenomenon, and understanding, in my opinion, only belongs when there is an explanation showing how it stems from the axioms that are accepted by us (i.e., we do not feel the need to explain them).
I thank you for giving me the opportunity to find out for myself what I think.
I wanted to ask about the duty to remember, which is in fact the duty to preserve something of the dead in the living. Obviously, there is such a duty towards those who fell in defense of the people out of gratitude towards them. But regarding the victims of the Holocaust and in general anyone who fell because of their Jewishness, what duty of gratitude do we have towards them? I thought of offering an explanation that the Jewish collective has a duty to protect its individuals who are attacked because of their mere belonging to the collective, and since the collective failed to protect the individual, the least it can do to compensate for the failure is to perpetuate the memory of the individual who fell because of his mere belonging to the collective.
It's possible. But maybe it's just a matter of quantity. It's possible that every dead person has a duty to be remembered, but here there are many and some of them have no one to remember them.
But then it's hard to understand why the victims of terrorism are included in the memorial ceremonies. They are a numerically smaller group than those killed in traffic accidents, and yet it is intuitively clear to people that it is more important to remember them than those killed in traffic accidents.
I'm really not even sure they have a place there.
That is, if there was some kind of epidemic in Europe that killed 6 million Jews, would we have the same duty of remembrance towards them as towards the victims of the Holocaust?
Yes. Why not? Notice that I wrote Dawley you are right but not sure. This is a discussion about the other side.
Even if what you wrote is true (although it sounds a bit strange), it is only true in relation to remembering individuals. On Holocaust Remembrance Day, the Holocaust is remembered as a collective and not as individuals, so your explanation is not appropriate for Holocaust Remembrance Day. I would like to suggest another direction. The Holocaust is an essential part of our identity and that is why it should be remembered. Do you agree?
This is also completely relevant in relation to the Holocaust. A collective that is remembered is present with us today.
I don't understand your argument. The Holocaust has become an essential part of identity because everyone is busy remembering it. Why not state that standing on one leg every morning is the essence of our identity?
"The righteous are called alive because their ideas and thoughts remain behind them." What about the wicked whose ideas remain behind them?
"The righteous, even in their death, are called alive because their good name and good deeds are the part of them that remains alive." What about the righteous that no one has heard of?
I didn't get to understand what you think memory does, I would appreciate it if you could be more specific, "conjures up" is not a definition.
Even if something like this does happen, it still doesn't explain why it's a value, why it's important.
Even the wicked whose ideas remain are called life, for the same reason. But life in the language of the Bible is life for the good (See, I set before you today death and life, and you have chosen life), and in this sense only the righteous are called life.
Righteous people whom no one has heard of (and let's assume there are no remnants of their thoughts and actions, which is rarer), are indeed not called living in this sense.
I have defined the matter as best I can and have nothing to add. I have explained the value of this (this is the value of life. Can you explain the value of life?).
Apparently, the verse proves the opposite, since the verse does not just say "life", but "life and goodness", meaning that these are separate things.
Where does this huge difference come from? Most of the righteous have not heard of them or have forgotten them, so most of the sentence "righteous in their death are called alive" is incorrect, and if the rabbi is right, then the main point is missing from the book.
It is possible to understand that the value of life is the possibility of creating and progressing, it is possible to explain that it is the ability to enjoy the pleasures of life, it is possible to explain that the value of life is only a negative value – meaning that it is forbidden to kill, but
Not a positive value – meaning that one should have children, etc., etc. The concept that the Rabbi brings up is “the value of life”
It is too complex for a rabbi to just blurt it out about the memory of the dead, and he would even refuse to define it properly.
A minimal familiarity with the language of the Bible will help you understand that the doubling teaches that life is good. Furthermore, when it says "and chose life," the word "good" was not added.
The righteous whose ideas remain here are alive because the ideas keep them alive. They don't need to be remembered. And even the idea can be embedded within other ideas but they had an impact.
Many things can be explained. But value is not a means to anything. Value is an end in itself. There is nothing complex here and there is no need to explain. If there is a person who cannot give birth or create, is it permissible to kill him? Is his life worthless?
"Minimal familiarity" is not an answer but rather a maximum attempt to silence the accuser.
Why didn't they add "and chose the good"? Excellent question, maybe because it's just a result, I don't know.
My claim still stands that most of the righteous were not remembered or had any influence, only the very best and the most talented were remembered, like Maimonides and the Ramban and their ilk.
Even if value is indeed an end in itself, my arguments can still be made, but instead of making them as an answer to "why?" - as the rabbi understood them, they can be understood as an answer to "what?" - that is, what is the boundary of life.
Of course it is complex, and the best evidence is that questions about 'simple' values like these have been at the center of philosophical debate for thousands of years.
We in Judaism believe that the concept of creation is broader than buildings and children, and that suffering and destruction are also a way to build broader things.
If you insist, we'll never move forward. I'm done.
I don't know why the rabbi thinks I – and perhaps all the commenters – am here to harass and argue.
I am a person who seeks the truth and greatly appreciates the Rabbi, and I went through half of the site and really enjoyed it, but I found that there are many things I do not agree with, and I try to understand the Rabbi's approach or reject it because I believe it is against the spirit of Judaism (such as the Rabbi's apostasy in Providence).
I have no right to demand this, but I would be happy if the rabbi treated me accordingly and with respect.
What's more, I think I'm right and the rabbi is the one who insists.
(From a subjective point of view, if I pull the rope in my direction and the other person in his direction, there is no way to know who is really right.)
The rabbi doesn't have to answer these questions specifically, because these aren't the questions that really bother me, but instead of the rabbi seeing that this is an issue that concerns me, as I said, I would be happy for the rabbi to look at me from eye level, and not from his throne.
A. It says "righteous" and the Gemara did not share it.
B. The fourth question actually depends on the second question, namely, what exactly is the boundary of this conjuration, and according to this one must measure whether the value of life also belongs to this.
Wonderful things that touch very deep souls.
May it help you, Rabbi Nachman, in Likutei Moharan, Part Two, 7:
"And therefore, it is necessary to leave behind a son or a disciple,
So that his knowledge may remain intact,
May it illuminate the children of this humble world.
*For when the knowledge of a subject is left in the hands of a son or a disciple, it is considered as if it were itself a thing that remains in the world*
…
When his days are full and the time of his departure arrives,
*Then the word that was spoken in his friend will be clothed in this, and it will be considered as if it were itself a real thing existing in this world…*
"For the essence is knowledge, *and when knowledge is left behind in the hands of a son or a disciple, it is considered as if it were a substance that would remain in existence forever*."
And similarly, ibid., Part I, Katsav:
In the book of wisdom, the likeness of the wise man is recorded and depicted there,
For these are the words and the letters written and depicted in the book, they are the wisdom of the wise *and his soul* and the testimonies of his face,
It was found that his mind *and his soul* and his face, which is his likeness, are in those letters and the boxes,
Therefore, in each book, we find the likeness of the precision of the wise man who renewed these words."
In the Book of Laws, the Rabbi gave his disciple, Seudah 4:7:
"And this is the test of the virtue of remembering the names of the righteous,
For in the holy name of every righteous person and righteous person, the entire essence of the righteous person is included, all his righteousness and his Torah and his good deeds and all his virtues and his degrees,
"For the name is his soul and his spirit."