On "cutting" legumes, conservatism and blasphemy (column 2)
With God’s help
This site published a short email response of mine on the subject of legumes.. I write there that I see no point in keeping this custom, and over the years I've been getting more and more into it (like most of us), until I decide to completely loosen the leash (probably this year in the month of Azzah). I'll start with a prayer: May it be my will that a pegi'n (= a fence breaker, a snake will dwell in me), although the poskim have already written about the prohibition of open water that is not afraid of snakes in our day. On the other hand, on the subject of "cutting legumes," it seems that the snakes are alive, existing, and kicking. If they weren't there long ago, no one would have been careful about this ridiculous nonsense.
Why does this law irritate me so much, much more than many other nonsenses that we all do? First, because it has no point whatsoever. Second, because there is no reason to immediately abolish it. And third, and this is the main thing, because it is harmful and makes the law seem like a stupid anachronism, and thus a great blasphemy is created (more within those who are obligated to the law than from the outside. They have long been sure, and to a considerable extent rightly, that we are all crazy). I hate acting like an idiot, and no less than looking like an idiot. But I hate it, when the law is seen and perceived like this, shouldn't we all have a problem with it? Chazal say that the nations of the world blame (= deplore, from the word deceit) Israel for a red heifer that has no point. But there I am calm, because I know that there is a point behind it, even if I don't understand it. The Almighty, who commanded it, must have known what He was doing. I don't know how paracetamol works, but I believe the doctor who tells me to take it to reduce fever or prevent pain. But when many of my friends and I are counting ourselves out about legumes, can I be just as calm? Does this also have some unknown flavor? If anyone knows of such a flavor, please let me know urgently. If only for the joy of the upcoming holiday.
This strange and annoying custom probably began in the Ashkenazim in the Middle Ages. Its origin is unknown, and many have tried to explain it without much success. I once heard from Rabbi Midan (Rosh Yeshiva of Har Etzion) that he knew of 22 reasons for reading the Book of Ruth on Shavuot, but only one reason for reading the Book of Esther on Purim. This is exactly how the multitude of reasons for prohibiting legumes appear. It is commonly believed that this is because at that time there were frequent cases of grain being mixed in packages of legumes, and thus the Jewish holy flock who were guarded against something leavened on Passover used to avoid eating legumes (not all of them, of course, not even in the Ashkenazim). Others claim that there is a severity here, such as the opinion of Rabbi Yochanan ben Nuri, who believes that rice also leaves a leaven. This is despite the fact that not all opinions have a similar halakhah, and despite the fact that his words are directed at rice and not at all legumes. There are other different and strange explanations, which I do not see the need to go into all of them. None of them are convincing, and certainly would not have been enough to convince a reasonable person to start today to avoid eating legumes on Passover. I think we can settle for the following a priori analysis: On Passover, there is a prohibition on leaven, that's all. Legumes themselves are certainly not leaven. Therefore, a prohibition on eating legumes that developed in some place and time, assuming that it is not just nonsense, of course, can only be one of two things: 1. There was a concern there about leaven that was mixed in (as above). 2. There is no concern about leaven, and then there is a reason for adding such a prohibition: "You shall not add" (adding a prohibition on what the Torah prohibited). In order not to blame the early generations who were neither people of the lands nor transgressors of "You shall not add" (of course, even if they were such, we have no obligation to continue in their path), the conclusion is that there was probably some concern about mixing with leaven. Mishal.
But that was in their time, and if it was so good that they avoided eating legumes. What about the learned halachic answers that are published on this matter today? Today, it is clear that there is no such concern. First, I don't remember ever finding grain inside a package of legumes. For some reason, the most strict in prohibiting legumes report finding grain in rice every morning. Why on earth does this only happen to them? Why wouldn't God, the Almighty, grant me, His faithful servant, the privilege of finding a grain of wheat? In any case, surprisingly, no one I know has ever experienced this harrowing experience. Second, even if such a grain were to be found, it would clearly be an extremely rare case. Especially since, according to the commercial rules currently in force in our developing country, the presence of gluten in a product in which it is not reported is very serious from a legal perspective (for those sensitive to gluten, you can make a lot of money if you find a grain of wheat in rice. Please report any such cases to me). Third, sometimes mistakes do happen, but a country is not built on mistakes. I'm sure there was a case where someone found a grain of wheat in a bag of potatoes, or in a can of tuna. Does anyone know if we should ban potatoes or fish on Passover? I'll tell you a secret, I guess that even in matzo people sometimes found wheat, L.A. It is clear that there is no real concern about the mixture of chametz in legumes, or in anything else, and even if there is a remote concern, it is not a reason to prohibit legumes on Passover.
So what do we do? Most of us, from the greatest to the least, find different ways to cover up, which are expanding every year. Legume oil has long been permitted (already by Rabbi Kook and before him). Legumes that were not in the Middle Ages – many poskim, including conservative ones, allow in the shop. Some allow a mixture of legumes (and then most all products that contain legume residues are permitted, for the public's information). Obviously, if there were a real concern about leaven, no one would allow any of these (the concern about the presence of a grain of wheat exists in quinoa just as it does in rice. For the information of all friends, we do not live in 12th-century Europe, but in the State of Israel of the twenty-first century). These are covers that have one goal: to circumvent this fossilized stupidity in various ways, out of a feeling that we have no way to simply get up and abolish it. After all, this is what actually needs to be done.
After all the scholarly and completely unconvincing explanations offered for the prohibition of legumes, it is clear to all of us that we are bound by a strange custom that has developed over the years and has become a monster that swallows up our Passover. Our background today is mainly covered with legumes. Most of the preparations for Passover, the constraints in cooking, food preparation and shopping, concern legumes. After all, if legumes are permitted, there is almost nothing problematic about Passover. There are substitutes for everything. Again, my problem is not that I can't eat rice or that I suffer during Passover (that is also true, but for the sake of the truth, people suffer). I suffer because I feel that I am engaging in anachronistic nonsense that lacks flavor and smell. On the other hand, there are those for whom this is what makes the holiday special. With legumes, their holiday will seem like a weekday. We need some tasteless prohibition to feel religious, don't we? This is my favorite proverb: It's too good to be KOSHER.
In a joint interview conducted by Sarah Beck with Rabbi Navon and me on Galei Yisrael Radio (April 21, see link below), Rabbi Navon said that these customs are the fragrances of the holiday for all of us. If we were to abandon the customs and focus on halakhah, nothing would remain of all our religious lifestyles. Thus, Seder night can be halakhically summarized in the hour including the meal (saying Pesach Matzah, Maror, and Hallel, and eating what is necessary). Thus, "Kol Nidrei" becomes the holiest moment of Yom Kippur, even though it is a formal process of dissolving vows that is marginal and not really necessary on Yom Kippur. I argued that in my opinion, there is a departure from proportion in relation to the customs. With all due respect to the fragrances, in the area of smell and fragrance, I leave things to the discretion of each person and not to the rabbinate and the poskim. First and foremost, the holiday is halakhah, and the fragrances at most accompany it. Today, the situation has reversed, and the fragrances cover most of our background and have even become the subject of halakhic law. Secondly, I certainly observe certain customs (there is a halakhic status for customs, apparently from the verse "Do not forsake the law of your mother"), but those that have a purpose. Thus, the custom of all vows and the Haggadah certainly have a purpose. So I make sure to distinguish between them and halakhic law, but to the same extent I observe them. But what about all this and foolish customs like legionnaires?!
This is a custom, a decree, or a fear that, in all (sane and intellectually honest) opinions, is devoid of any meaning. What remains for us to examine is whether our hands are indeed tied by the lack of authority to undo such historical traps? Is there really nothing we can do? Is it not possible to kill the monster with our bare hands (as the saying goes: without the Sanhedrin and without "B'Tselem")?
What underlies the discussion of authority is the claim that it is impossible to change decrees or customs even if their purpose is null and void (as Maimonides says in the book of the Hebrews, "Mahal Memariam"). Here we must distinguish between three types of laws: decrees, customs, and concerns. A decree is a regulation of a qualified rabbi that prohibits a certain thing (usually out of fear that they will come to violate a Torah prohibition). A custom is a situation in which the public begins to behave in a certain way, even though the halakhah does not require it. And the third thing is a concern. A concern is a different kind of custom. Let's say there is a pothole somewhere on the road. People, of course, go around it with their car so as not to fall into it. It was like that for a generation or two, until the municipality remembered to fix the pothole. Should we now continue to bypass this point because there is an (ancient!?) custom to do so? Does it depend on the length of time they used to do so? (One year, or two hundred years) Probably not. Legumes were at most a concern, not a custom and certainly not a decree.
Some use the term "legume prohibition" to reinforce the obligation to guard against them. This is baseless, since there is no prohibition here, and when they began to practice this, there was no Jewish court authorized to issue a binding prohibition (such as a day of fasting and remembrance for the Holocaust, Independence Day, and the like), and as far as I know, there was no one who actually did so. This is an apologetic term whose purpose, at least today, is solely to defend a fear that has lost its appeal. Just for the sake of completeness, I will note that even if this was a decree, then even with regard to regulations and decrees, for which the law requires a rabbinical opinion (usually great in wisdom and minyan) to repeal them, sages throughout the ages have repealed several of these when the reason was no longer valid and when it was necessary and continued compliance would be harmful. See many examples in the last chapter of Rabbi Neriah Gotel's book, The Changing Nature of Nature in Halacha, and there are many more. If we take an example from Seder night, washing hands over something that was dipped in a drink, which is an explicit regulation in the Talmud. And behold, several important poskim wrote that they heard that they repealed the laws of impurity and purity, there is no point in doing so, and indeed the vast majority of those who are obligated to the halachah do not do so today (although for most poskim this is necessary even today because we do not have the power to repeal regulations that have no reason).
Apparently the conclusion is that it is a custom and not a decree. But even with regard to customs, many poskim have written that a foolish custom is automatically null and void. If ketaniyot is not a foolish custom, then I do not know what a foolish custom is. So if this is true with regard to regulations and decrees, then even more so with regard to customs.
So what are we left with? Fear. Legumes are (or, more precisely: were) a fear. But with fear, we saw that the rule is that when the fear is gone, the need for action is gone. This is similar to eating food that was a health concern that has since been proven to be untrue or for which we have found another solution. Are we still forbidden to eat it now? It is important to understand that fear is not an obligation of any kind. Fear is a state of mind, not a prohibition, nor is it a halakhic personal matter (even where the fear is about a halakhic offense). When there is fear, one avoids something (and rightly so), and when the fear is gone, one stops avoiding it (even more rightly so). In my opinion, avoiding eating legumes today is like being careful to only cross the road at a crosswalk when there have been no cars in the world for hundreds of years.
As mentioned, this concern (not a decree or a custom) is not only stupid and annoying, it causes great harm. It causes terrible blasphemy, presenting the halacha as a rigid and stupid system, clinging to practices that have long since lost their appeal. It reminds me of the trite story about the Rebbe of Gur who, when he came to light the Chanukah candles, asked his servant to remove the broom that was standing next to the menorah. He explained that he did not want all the Hasidim to place a broom next to the menorah during the lighting. The servant removed the broom, and what happened the year after that? All the Hasidim placed a broom, removed it, and then lit candles. We are all used to laughing at this bizarre story, and at the same time, we all act exactly like those Hasidim. There has long been no concern, and we are still investing our money and fortune to avoid the fear of legumes on Passover, Rabbi. What is the difference between the cases? Why is everyone laughing at this, while here everyone is acting like the last of the foolish Hasidim? Halacha is not an anachronism, but those who mock the way it is conducted today are right. An increasingly high percentage of the laws that we observe are anachronisms. Some of them, unfortunately, cannot be changed (as I described above), but why not change at least those that can be changed? Why idealize stupidity and ignorance?! As mentioned, when there is damage, decrees can also be canceled, but here we are talking about a concern, not a decree, and there is no need for justification. Let us open our eyes, and we will discover to our amazement that we are in 21st century Israel and not in medieval Europe (some of them have probably been asleep for a thousand years). Here, this concern does not exist. Period.
In the margins of my remarks, I will address a question that several people who heard my opinion asked me. What about soaked matzah? And rich matzah? This confusion proves my claim about the confusion between foolish customs, strictures, and laws. The confusion created by the policy that makes legumes a core belief in order to protect this holy prohibition. Soaked matzah is based on the fear of flour residues in the product that could sour when they come into contact with water. This is a distant fear and many do not tend to fear it, and it is still not nonsense. It is a fear of leaven, albeit distant. What does that have to do with legumes?! With rich matzah, the situation is even more serious. According to several poskim (including the Rema, whose likeness is practiced by the Ashkenazim), rich matzah is more sour than dough kneaded in water (see Bitza 7b, where it means that the stronger the sourness, the greater the prohibition, and therefore there is a stronger reason to prohibit it with leaven than with leaven). Therefore, the strictness here is a halakhic matter, and even if there is disagreement about it, that is perfectly fine. There are disagreements in halakhic law and everyone will act according to their own system. But in the case of legumes, this is not a disagreement, but a historical accident. The Ashkenazi Jews are stuck with a stupid historical accident, and they insist on moving the broom over and over again, lest the mythological snake of the fence-breakers bite them.
So let me go from slavery to freedom in Mota and this Passover to lie on the fence for you. And as the late said: "I don't know why I deserve a reward, all I wanted was to return home in peace." Happy holiday and kosher.
After a while, I remembered the Toss in Bitzah 6:1, 25, and the Idna, which wrote that there is no need for a minyan in the cancellation of a concern:
And indeed, here are my friends who are concerned – Pharisees who are forced by Israel to do work and when it is the 19th, they are placed there, and if they were to see that their dead are being buried, they are forced to do work and it is said that at this time, there is no friend who is permitted, and it cannot be said that there is a need for another reason to permit the practice. This reason is because of a fear and a transgression. The fear is a transgression of the reason, and the Lord said about the waters of the exiled people, lest a snake drink from them, and now that there are no snakes among us, it is clear that we drink from them even from the beginning, despite the fact that it is something that the Lord and the Prophets would have prohibited.
Just as I wrote in the column here.
- For an interview on Galei Israel, Listen here at the beginning of things.
- Detailed reference by Rabbi Shmuel Ariel
- Rabbi A's comment
- Video by Rabbi David Bar Haim about legumes
Wolf:
Geowold!!
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Nadav Gessner:
Rabbi Michael,
It is difficult for me to accept the disdain for a custom that was practiced by the great rabbis. The Rema and the Maharil would not have maintained a strange and annoying custom.
I don't know about all the different and strange reasons, after studying the issue from the Gemara, Beit Yosef Shulchan Aruch and its subjects, I saw that the custom has three main reasons: 1. That I should not alternate between a dish with various legumes and a dish of various grains. 2. That I should not alternate between dishes made from legume flour and grain flour, 3. Mixing various grains with legumes. There is an understandable rationale for these reasons, even though they are not strong enough to make it clear that it should be prohibited, because concerns can always be found and why. But is the existence of relatively distant exceptions in halacha new to you?
While it is clear that nothing has changed regarding the first tastes, because today legumes are cooked and baked from their flour no less and even more often, regarding the third taste, I have heard Rabbi Eliezer Melamed teach several times in shiurim that the reality today has not only not changed but has actually worsened. He even addressed this briefly in the Revivim section. http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/15751.
Perhaps in rice, which is not similar to wheat, it is easy to distinguish industrially, but in cumin, for example, which is also grown in the same field as wheat, Rabbi Eliezer said that once they showed cumin grain at a kosher conference, and only after they were shown the subtle difference between cumin and wheat, did they see that the ratio is 1 to 20. Not even a 60-fold increase! And we are talking about leaven that prohibits something.
Moreover, in Rabbi Micha Halevi's class this year, he said that he recently took care of a spice factory that had exactly this problem! After grinding, he realized that the grains from which the spices were made contained less than 60% wheat. The rabbi ordered the factory to stop operating for a few days (the rest of the incident is irrelevant to his case).
My question is, do you deal with kosher? Do you know the reality in the fields? In the packaging plants? Or are you just saying: I have never found wheat in rice. Because that doesn't sound like a serious enough argument to me. Maybe only for rice. (Certainly not the argument that according to the law it is serious to have unreported gluten. Do we live in the same country? Since when is the law here a guarantee for anything?).
I will summarize:
This is a ruling based on a caveat. There is no shortage of such in the halacha, more or less distant. All the reasons still exist. Therefore, there is no reason to annul this type of halacha, simply because in our opinion the beliefs of the great men of that generation were foolish.
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Rabbi:
Nadav Shalom.
I just saw your comment. Sorry for the delay.
I have already written that all these unconvincing justifications, even if they are true, are irrelevant to the discussion. In your opinion, we should prohibit things based on the actual concern about them, not because of custom, and not permit them based on formal questions such as whether it is a legume that was in existence at the time of the "decree," or whether it is green. Poke around and see where there is leaven and where there is not. Furthermore, if there is a real concern, Sephardim should also be stopped from eating legumes. No one recommends doing this. Therefore, I do not buy the enthusiastic reports of supporters of this custom, and you do not need any knowledge of kosher for this.
If leaven is found in any product, production must be stopped or the kosher status must be revoked. This is what has been done and is being done in these cases, and the ban on all legumes does not become any less ridiculous because of this.
The law on gluten is very significant, just like the RMP's consideration of Akko milk in a modern country. In the State of Israel, they are also strict about it, if only for economic reasons (the fine if you violate it). If you don't trust the conduct - don't eat any kosher product because it might contain pork or blood and you weren't told. By the way, do you know many Sephardic gluten-sensitive people who were harmed by eating legumes on Passover? That gluten got into their product? From what I've been told, even in restaurants - which are much less supervised than industrial products - this almost never happens anymore.
I don't know whether or not there was a concern about chametz at the time of the Maharil or the Rema, so it is possible that in their time there was a reason for this prohibition. We will leave the discussion of the obligations of death for another occasion...
By the way, if this were a decree (and as I wrote, in my opinion it really isn't, but rather a concern), then there's no need for all this, because even if the reason is nullified, the decree is not nullified. I've already written about the fact that the early rabbis nullified dozens of such decrees. The rules of halakhah are not mathematical rules, but that's a topic for another discussion.
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Pine:
Following on from what was said about Rabbi Chaim Navon, there is an article by him with similar things that I would love to hear your opinion on:
Rabbi Chaim Navon:
A new Torah genre has come into the world: mocking the exaggeration of Passover cleaning. "According to Halacha, in three hours you can make your house ready," people read in Shabbat pamphlets, and I immediately rush to disparage both men and women who clean. My wife really doesn't like these statements. Maybe according to Halacha, three hours is enough, she says (and I say: I doubt it), but that's how my mother cleans, and that's how we clean too. And she's right. Because our Passover is not determined solely by the books of Halacha. I believe with all my heart in the vitality of Halacha to our spiritual lives. In a world where all loyalties are degenerating and all commitments are dissolving, in a world where people pride themselves on having freed themselves from the shackles of religion while at the same time worshipping themselves as a selfish and crazed idol, in such a world our loyalty to Halacha is a vital and heartwarming wonder. Halacha is the skeleton of our spiritual world. But this skeleton must be covered with flesh and blood. Halacha must not be given up, but it can and should be added to. Our customs and traditions are what give volume and strength to our religious life. What would our Passover look like if it were only Halacha? From the point of view of the mathematics of Halacha, it is enough for a person to recite short, fragmented parts of the Haggadah. From the point of view of formal Halacha, if the cleaning for Passover can be completed in three hours, then the Seder night can be completed in an hour and a half, including the meal. It is not just about Passover. If we were limited to formal Halacha, much of the flavor and aroma of our religious life would be taken away from us. According to the books of Halacha, one does not have to pray Kabbalat Shabbat. I am not saying that one should not pray it in the Carlebach style – that is certainly true, and even recommended, regardless of Halacha – but that one should not pray Kabbalat Shabbat at all. Shabbat songs also do not appear in any section of the Shulchan Aruch. Even "Kol Nidrei" on Yom Kippur night can be skipped. And even for forgiveness, we don't need to wake up. Our lives are wrapped in customs and habits, without which we would be lost and poor. It is impossible to turn to books everywhere as an exclusive source of authority. In no area of our lives do we act like this. Respectable people boast about wearing ties. Does anyone have a logical explanation for this item of clothing? When we meet, we shake hands. What is the meaning of this procedure? It is unhygienic and illogical. We will not find any explanation for it in books. We can only find theories about the historical origin of the handshake, theories that only present it in an even more ridiculous light. Anyone who examines the rational explanation for each step and what justification can be found for it in books will reduce his life to an incredibly short series of purposeful actions. None of us act like this. Even when we do things that have a clear purpose, this reasoning is not the motive for our actions. Sometimes people tell me with pride that they explain to their young children the reasoning for every religious action and every mitzvah. And I ask: Do you also teach them a crash course in bacteriology before brushing their teeth? We do what we do because that is how life is in our home, and at the elementary level, that reasoning is enough. This is the basic layer of family and community identity that every child should grow up with. As our children grow older, they understand more and more. But we, their parents, also press the microwave and believe that the food will heat up, without having any idea how this miraculous mechanism works. If we limited our actions only to what we can rationally explain and justify, we would still be heating food on campfires (assuming we understand the theory of fire combustion). Our customs have a double value. First of all, they shape the hidden corners of our souls. Each of us misses the High Holy Day melodies of our parents' home. Not that they are really more beautiful than the melodies of the cantor in our contemporary synagogue, but we grew up on them. Besides this, customs also have another value: they preserve the wisdom of our ancestors. The wisdom of many generations has been poured into these customs. And if the accumulated experience of our ancestors led them to gather together for the Kabbalat Shabbat prayer, even though the halacha does not require it, then this is probably the way to truly elevate our Shabbat. Because of all this, I appreciate the dedication to Pesach cleaning. Whoever finds it too much for him – let him reduce. Whoever feels that the smells of bleach turn him into a compulsive-obsessive monster – let him stop. But those who are ready and willing to make the effort and clean more than necessary, because that is how they did it in their parents' house, and that is how they want their Pesach – deserve appreciation and not disdain. I have much more to say on this subject, but the panels are waiting for me. (The weekly column in Motzesh magazine – Your New Week).
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Rabbi:
Halacha itself sees a custom as something obligatory. But in doing so, it also says that foolish customs should be abolished. And when a custom becomes a nuisance and it is clear to everyone that it is nonsense, there is no reason to keep it. And when it comes to a concern that has become a custom out of inertia, like the Rebbe of Gur's broom, then it is already a joke. And if cleaning for Passover is a fashion like wearing ties, then clean it. Just don't tell me that it is obligatory. If you look for leaven where it can be, then there is a place. But simple cleanings are not a custom, but a nuisance. Rabbi Navon reacts with a hysterical reaction to the excessive reform and innovation (to his taste), and in doing so, in my opinion, he associates gender with something that is not gender. Incidentally, I also don't have too much faith in the collective wisdom of the generations. For example, I clearly prefer scientific medicine to the 'accumulated wisdom' of the Chinese in acupuncture.
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kid:
Be updated on the new site, a, Why not be afraid of that biting snake? b. My opinion is that the snake is not exactly metaphysical but a feeling of withdrawal that does not do good to the self in front of the audience to which you belong, c. Look at the fact that in Passover customs, one should not abandon the tradition, even in the custom of a shtutted. This is a slippery slope and that is how the reform began. It also had halachic supports for the most part until it deteriorated. I hope that his honor did not eat legumes on Passover. Personally, it would hurt me [of course, this does not obligate his honor] as I think it would also be for his honor. Happy Holidays
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Rabbi:
Gadi Shalom. Thank you for your response. If something doesn't do someone good, then don't do it. The question is not a question of feelings, but of prohibition or permission. Even if it says so in the Maharal, I disagree with it. The moment you treat a foolish custom like halakha, the damage is much more serious. The reform (and the Enlightenment) began with two forces that were combined together: the rebellion from below, and the wrong response from above (from the rabbinical establishment: condemnation and excommunication instead of a substantive response). I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this year I did eat legumes.
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kid:
I will add a few more words: we are all part of the public. If everyone decides to do what they see fit, it will not hold. The issue is nothing more than signing the Talmud. It is the same principle. They accepted it and that is it. I made it very brief, and it should be extended.
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Rabbi:
Regarding the issue of handing over the decision to everyone, I will bring here things I said about twenty years ago to my students at the Hesder Yeshiva in Yeruham before they left for the officer course. I told them that I would not want to go to war with soldiers that I know would never refuse me an order. Every soldier must refuse an order when a red line is crossed from his perspective, of course after considering that the matter is serious enough and justified. This is not only the soldier's right and duty for the benefit of his own values, but is also necessary for the proper functioning of the army. A commander who knows that if he gives an order, the soldiers can refuse him – will consider every order more seriously, and the functioning of the army will only improve. A commander who knows that every order of his will be carried out automatically will give orders without sufficient thought.
Regarding the status of the Talmud, it is indeed based on public acceptance, as was the case at Mount Sinai. But they did not accept the foolish custom of ketaniyot, and even if they did, it was a mistaken acceptance, like any other foolish custom.
I would also add that the arguments you have raised here are true for any custom, and what emerges from them is that in fact there is no such thing as a foolish custom. After all, you can always say that it is forbidden to deviate from the public and its acceptance is binding, etc., etc. But there is such a concept. So when did it say that foolish customs should be abolished? I mentioned in my remarks that even decrees from the Talmud were abolished by the Rishonim when it was necessary. So a fear or foolish custom all the more so that there is no problem and it is even desirable to abolish them.
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Yeruham:
The honorable Rabbi 'forgot' that the Beit Yosef, regarding the issue of legumes, cites the words of our Rabbeinu Yerucham, who writes, 'And it is a foolish custom' - that is, your entire long [and enjoyable] speech in one word, 'nonsense.' From the course of events in the Beit Yosef, it seems that he is rubbing his hands with pleasure at hearing the words of Rabbi Yerucham, and he adds fuel to the fire and writes, 'And in Spain they never practiced this,' that is, don't confuse our minds with absurd Ashkenazi customs. See you at the university
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Rabbi:
May they be blessed.
In my words, I did not need sources at all, because even if there were no such sources, my words would still stand.
Gadi Ma'alich cites a source that talks about "harvesting legumes," and this is also a source (and I haven't forgotten it either).
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kid:
To my mind, I thought you were calling it a foolish custom that we are talking about today, but it is clear that it is an ancient custom [a decree, see the Maharil who wrote that there is a death penalty] with reasons [although there are some] of their own, and yet our Shulchan Aruch, the Rema, wrote a halakha "It cannot be changed" as I wrote if we read from the halakha [and more in public] each with his own opinions is the end of the matter, this is a reform, talking about it in public is contagious, I did not prolong it and maybe I will write to you privately, [Is there a chance that I will change your mind about something that in principle will convince you of the justice of the things?]
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Rabbi:
It is difficult for a witness to testify about his actions. I can only express my appreciation and hope that if good evidence is presented, I will gladly return.
Originally, I assume that this fear had logic. I have no reason to assume that our ancestors and elders were fools. Therefore, it is clear that when I speak of a foolish custom, I am referring to our day. What I argued about the time when people began to abstain from legumes is a different argument: I argued that it was probably a fear and not a decree or custom, and I assume that there was really a basis for this fear at that time. After this basis has disappeared, there is no reason to continue practicing it. I detailed the matter in my column.
The treatment of this as an ancient custom is only because they don't understand why everyone does it and don't have the courage to change and abolish it as they should have. And inventing a death penalty for this is truly a futile thing to forgive.
I once heard from Rabbi Midan (maybe I wrote in my own words. I don't remember), that he knows 22 reasons why the Book of Ruth is read on Shavuot, but only one reason for the reading of the Book of Esther on Purim. All the reasons for "decrease in legumes" testify by a thousand witnesses that there is no reason at all. Just now, one of my acquaintances sent me a quote from Rabbi Chaim Pelaji, who wrote that the prohibition of legumes is because it is a dishonorable food for the holiday. And according to this, of course, they should also be avoided on Sukkot and Shavuot (he himself writes this in the Hadith). See how far these strange things go, and how all this is related to the distinctions between the different types of legumes (what was available at the time, green and not green, etc.).
If when everyone comes with their own interpretations, this is reform – then I am a reformer. I am one of those who use their own interpretations (although I try to be careful about this). This is what our sages have done throughout all generations, and they were not afraid of all these concerns (see, for example, the sources that Yeruham cited in the message before you).
This is not a departure from the Halacha, but a departure from the words of some Halacha arbiters. And they all do this. To call this a departure from the Halacha is to assume the desired outcome (you assume that this is the Halacha. But that is what the debate itself is about, and in my opinion it is not).
I certainly hope that talking about this in public is contagious. You certainly understand that my goal in publishing these things was not to hide my positions. I hope that it will infect many others who have abandoned their authentic teachings on this matter. The right way if you want to prevent this is to present good arguments against, and not to do it in person but in public. So that everyone can see and judge.
All the best
——
kid:
Rabbi Michal, if I thought you were a reformer, I would not argue about this. You are neither the first nor the last who every year can wonder to himself or to his friend why legumes are not permitted in our time, and everyone still follows the Rema who wrote that there should be no change despite his knowledge that in his day there was no longer any concern, [perhaps the concern of dragging wheat and rice] There was no shortage of leaders in previous generations who had handfuls of credit in their hands to permit the matter without fear for their own skin, and for the sake of the dangers of the matter, they did not permit it. The people are not ready for fundamental changes because this is a slippery slope, all the more so when it comes with a disregard for what is necessary, and this is the absolute respect for our ancestors who are still called,,,If we are first like angels, etc.,,,These are beliefs necessary for our existence and those greater than me will also say that this is a reality [the descent of generations, etc.] For others, these will be necessary customs and the custom of Israel is Torah and its merits are beside it. Without these foundations, I do not see Continuation and existence,,
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Rabbi:
Hello, Gadi.
First of all, I don't think it's right not to debate with Reformers. Arguments should be responded to with arguments and not with boycotts or insults. What I wrote is that if the exercise of reason is a reform (as you claimed) then I am a Reformer. This is not a rhetorical statement, but I meant it completely seriously.
The fear of allowing, in my opinion, did not stem from personal fear, but from a reaction to reform and demands for change that arose or were feared to arise. I think that at least nowadays this is the wrong policy. Contrary to what was accepted in the past, that when there is a loophole, any change should be blocked or walls should be erected, today this policy is destructive and harmful. What needs to be done is to explain what is truly forbidden and what is not, and not to mix customs with prohibitions, and certainly not to adhere to foolish customs.
I don't know who the "people" are who are ready or not. I actually think that the people have stopped being ready for total non-change, especially on such stupid issues as kindergartens. And if we don't change, many will throw away (and are already doing so) everything. People are losing faith in such a fossilized and anachronistic system.
The question of whether Rishonim are like angels and its meaning does not concern us. I am not claiming that any of the founders of this prohibition were stupid. On the contrary, it is clear to me that they had a good reason, but I am claiming that now it no longer exists (and there are no concerns about dragging it out). It seems to me that if we maintain the perception of Rishonim as angels in this sense, we have no right to exist. Our eyes are seeing the (justified) deterioration of public trust in halacha and the poskim. This is a result of their/our fossilized conservatism. We earn it honestly.
——
kid:
Rabbi Michal, with a Reformer I would not discuss legumes, there is no such thing as a boycott. As for the fear of loosening, that is indeed what I wrote. I disagree with his honor regarding conservatism. I believe that conservatism is necessary, and for some reason his honor writes that the leash should be loosened [at least in what he believes], which in my opinion is destructive. Indeed, when an important, talented, and important Jew stands up and somehow mocks a saint and a precious person in the religious Ashkenazi community who observes the words of the Rema according to Halacha and who did not think that this was a foolish custom, this does indeed cause distrust, and this is what I argued from the beginning. History proves again and again this trend towards reform, leaving religion, and converting to Christianity in the past, and today, with the national religious community, which, with all the concessions that apply to it emotionally and mentally, does not hold,
——
Rabbi:
Gadi Shalom. Apparently we have a disagreement about what constitutes disrespect and what is dangerous to the status of Halacha. This is a factual dispute and I see no possibility of resolving it here, and after all, my words have already been spoken.
Regarding your words about the evidence from history, there is of course a lot to discuss. I see all the examples you brought as evidence for my theory. Regarding your words about the national religious public, I completely disagree with you. In my opinion, this public is what holds the Haredi public together, which itself really doesn't hold (and many of those who do hold together are failures in my opinion). Furthermore, Harediism (even if you assume that Judaism in the past was Haredi, a very difficult claim in itself) did not hold together in the past, since everything we know today (Reform, Enlightenment, national religiosity, etc.) emerged from it and its failures. But that really opens up a completely different debate, which has no place here.
——
kid:
It's like claiming that all the failures of the generation of the desert and those who come after it are from the Mount Sinai situation because they all came out of there. First, to claim that conservatism or boycotts or the ways of dealing with the beginning of the Reformation is what gave it legitimacy. This, in my opinion, is an argument that is plausible and not even a conspiracy. The exceptions that they will find to this argument are not really there to build such a reality. Since we became a people, there have always been "Reformers" in different variations and this is not something new as is commonly thought. First, we are here in our country today thanks to the existence of Pharisaic Judaism for generations, and it is the one that held it.
Here is the head of the Practical Reform Party (Aharon Horin) who for some reason is not that well-known to the public.
——
Rabbi:
The status of Mount Sinai did not cause any failure. But the Haredi boycott played a central role in the failure to deal with the new winds.
I didn't write that the boycott gave legitimacy, but that it was complicit in the failure. That's really not the same thing.
The Pharisees are the Reformers of our day. Therefore, to claim that we are the successors of the Pharisees and that it is their way that has preserved us, and at the same time to argue against the Reformers, seems to me to be a real blasphemy.
——
kid:
Rabbi Michael, good morning,
Your response looks like a 'V'
I used an extreme word, legitimacy from the word legitimate = logical,
In other words, the reality of the reform became logical through the attitude of,,,,
As I wrote, we do disagree on the matter,
Regarding the Pharisees of that time, who are today's Reformers, if you mean that the Sadducees preceded them, then I really feel that I am only degrading their honor by arguing.
And if it was just about changes, there is no doubt that they were mainly in the direction of piety and raising the walls, and not the other way around.
Even if there were indeed changes to ease the methods of punishment, then a] we have no historical record of what was practiced before,
[B] Many not insignificant punishments were added, a plague of rebellion, punishments that were not lawful, a great many, etc.,
Stones from ancestors or history etc…….,
Of course, all of this is apart from decrees and regulations and exclusions and observances and curfews and prohibitions, etc.,,,,,,,,,,,,,
——
Rabbi:
I didn't mean that the Sadducees were ahead, but rather that their approach was ahead. The Pharisees created a period of demanding sermons and far-reaching changes in halakha, kola and chumara. Incidentally, the difference between kola and chumara is not always clear, even today.
But this entire historical debate is irrelevant to our discussion. Even if you were right and this was indeed the policy of the Pharisees (and in my opinion it really wasn't), you would still suggest deviating from it. After all, I completely agree that this is indeed the policy that has been followed for most of our history: raising the walls when there are calls to break through (when the dispersal of a conference is taking place). But I have already written that there is no sanctity in halakhic policy, and contrary to halakhic law, there is no obligation to adhere to it. Policy should be tested by success or failure and by its suitability to reality. My argument is that today it is absolutely inappropriate. The opposite is true.
Ephraim:
You may be right, it's irrelevant, but why the rudeness?!
——
Rabbi:
Ephraim, are you sure you're on the right site? Are your words being misinterpreted? What's irrelevant and what's rude?
Amichai:
1. As you can see from many of the comments here, the ability to argue logically and rationally with an average Orthodox is impossible, since arguments such as "how can one be disrespectful" or "there is no rabbi who permits" are arguments that seek to eliminate the ability to think, and therefore thinking will not convince a person (who consciously or unconsciously) gives it minimal weight in life, meaning that the average Orthodox is ultimately busy preserving (what he inherited) and is not willing to realize what he inherited. This is very jarring today, since with Israel's return to its land and the establishment of an Israeli state and society, we should have moved into a state of realization and not remained in a state of preservation, as Orthodoxy does today, in my opinion.
2. Your assumptions regarding customs and decrees and the ability to cancel or change them are also questionable. Much of what is written can be asked, "Who said that?" I want to say that there are "rules" that for some reason someone decided were determined that way without reality requiring it, even the maxim that the Sanhedrin cannot cancel something that was determined by a Sanhedrin that is greater than it requires clarification. What cannot be canceled and under what circumstances?
3. I wanted to ask your opinion in general about many Talmudic sayings that are irrelevant today? What is your attitude?
For example, keeping seven days clean for a woman who is in a state of impurity (Rabbi Zira's statement on the book of the daughters of Israel), in fact, as I understand it after studying the subject, what happened was that women would sometimes bleed outside the regular time for impurity (gonorrhea), and this was relatively common in our day. In addition, this was the root of the problem, which was that it was difficult for women to properly count the days of menstruation and fill in the days when they were supposed to have menstruation (a calendar and a pen were not within everyone's reach, certainly not an app for calculating menstruation time). Therefore, the daughters of Israel decided not to risk violating the Torah prohibition of impurity, and therefore they also made it more severe for the blood of impurity (and all blood) to keep seven days clean after it. In other words, the daughters of Israel seriously harmed the intention of the Torah (to allow a woman in a state of impurity to be with her husband after 7 days as she was supposed to, to allow a woman to be in the blood of purity after giving birth), and all this because in the balance of considerations, the fear of the prohibition outweighed the cancellation of what the Torah did want us to do, and after all this I ask myself, Today, gonorrhea is relatively rare, today there is no problem with the help of a calendar and a pen (or an app) to understand whether the blood that flows on a certain date is within the range of the month that can be defined as niddah blood or is gonorrhea blood. Furthermore, there are women today who are halakhically infertile and undergo all kinds of procedures just because of this severity, meaning that today the will of the Torah (to permit niddah after 7 or to permit a woman with the blood of purity) is nullified when there is no consideration that justifies it. In fact, I feel that in maintaining this severity, we are sinning. It seems as if this severity is more important than the commandment of Per and Rabbah at times.
Unfortunately, even the discussion I want to have with my environment on the subject is stopped very quickly because of people's unwillingness to discuss it "Gevalad". In my opinion, the root of the lack of discussion on the subject stems from the religious attitude that has stuck in Diaspora Judaism, that severity is always a blessing, and as if prohibiting what is permitted is an excellent thing that certainly does not violate the will of the Torah. I of course think that prohibiting what is permitted is at least as severe as permitting what is prohibited (and even in this there is much to be said at the root of the view that Judaism, in my view, is a culture and a natural longevity that seeks to clothe man with morality and higher values, as opposed to most Orthodox who believe that Judaism is a religion that seeks to create laws and norms that are not natural to man so that man will always "overcome." Proof of this is that most religious people today feel satisfaction that they suffered greatly in performing a mitzvah and yet still did it, such as pushing 3 matzahs on Seder night even though it proves to them that this amount is not necessary).
That's it, I was careless and didn't even bother to edit. I'd love to hear what you think about what I wrote.
——
Rabbi:
Amichai Shalom.
You have raised some very important questions and I will not be able to exhaust them. I will try to be brief.
1. I actually disagree with your interpretation. These claims are claims like any other. A person claims that tradition has a truth value and that collective rationality fits it in some way, and therefore they have faith in its results. This is an approach like any other approach, and it can and should be dealt with. It is true that sometimes there is a lack of attention and people do not give up their basic assumptions, but this is true for all parts of the population and not just for religious orthodoxy.
2. You can say "Who said" about anything. And are there no basic assumptions in your thinking? The question is whether there is an answer to the question of "Who said". Sometimes there is and sometimes there is not. It is important to understand that sometimes an answer will not address the substance of the matter but rather the question of authority. Every normative system (such as state law, for example) establishes rules that are binding regardless of whether they are correct. If there is an incorrect law or an incorrect interpretation by a judge, there is still an obligation to obey them. Halacha is no different in this sense. Therefore, an answer that says we do not have the authority to change, or that in order to change, a judge (major or not) is required is a completely legitimate answer. And again, it must be examined whether it is correct or not, but there is nothing a priori wrong in it.
3. This is a specific halakhic and meta-halakhic discussion and this is not the place to conduct it. I am not at all sure that it is irrelevant today. And I also do not think that we have the authority to repeal it, just like an irrelevant law of the Knesset that only the Knesset can change (see previous sections on this type of answer). But given that there is truly no relevance, there is no obstacle to change (of course, a mechanism must be found that solves the problem of authority, and there are such in some cases).
Prohibiting what is permitted is problematic, and today even more so than ever. I completely agree.
I don't agree with your statement that the distinction between religion and moral and other values is wrong. I do agree that it is late (meaning that this distinction was once less sharp). But that is a separate discussion and there is no room here to dwell on it.
——
Pine:
1. You often compare the authority of the Knesset to the authority of the Sages, but with regard to the authority of the Knesset, if there is agreement to change a law that has become obsolete and is no longer relevant, this can easily happen, whereas with regard to the authority of the Sages, it seems that even broad agreement will not be beneficial in changing the decree.
2. Regarding the halacha that a court of great wisdom and quorum is required to annul a regulation, why don't we add a clause that in the event that it is clear to everyone that the reason for the regulation is invalid, the sages of the generation are sufficient to annul the regulation?
——
Rabbi:
I'm not very knowledgeable in the legal world, but as far as I understand, no law can be repealed without Knesset legislation. There is a novelty that the Ministry of Justice does not enforce when there is no public interest, but this is also a procedure that the Knesset can approve or repeal.
Regarding the authority of the Sages, in my opinion, if there is broad agreement, it is null and void. There is simply no agreement on that. What is the difference between agreeing to accept their authority (which is the basis for the authority they have) and agreeing to nullify it? The mouth that forbade is the one that permitted. See, as the Rabbi of the Rabbis, Memariam, that there is no principled restriction on nullifying ancient laws. Rabbi Kook also wrote that all of Israel have the power of the Great Council, and therefore their agreement nullifies whatever you wish.
What does it mean that we do not add? Because we do not add to or change the decrees of the Sages (unless there is general agreement, and so on. Hypothetical only). Although in practice this is done all the time, and I even gave examples and references to this in my remarks.
Eric:
"First of all, I don't remember ever finding grain inside a package of legumes. For some reason, the strictest in prohibiting legumes report finding grain in rice every morning. Why on earth does this only happen to them? Why wouldn't God, the Almighty, grant me, His faithful servant, the privilege of finding a grain? In any case, surprisingly, no one I know has actually experienced this harrowing experience."
I don't remember finding a grain of wheat in a bag of Sugat rice, but in bags of legumes that you buy filled in stores (meaning that there are drawers of different products and you fill the bag with them) there is definitely sometimes something that isn't the original product, so it's likely that there will also be wheat there from time to time.
This Passover I found something unclear in a bag of soybeans (which I eat based on Rabbi Feinstein's belief that small grains were not permitted during the custom) that may have been leaven or at least something that could be leaven.
To say that for this reason legumes should be prohibited? Probably not. To say that there is some degree of aggravation in this, like soaked matzah, etc.? It is understandable.
——
Rabbi:
As I wrote in my words, this is true for everything, and especially for everything that is sold in bulk. So what's the point of banning legumes, and certainly reducing the ban on legumes that existed in their time. Ban everything that there is concern about nowadays (if the concern is significant). Therefore, I do not agree that it is similar to shurua.
Eric:
Legumes, in their broad definition (seeds that are eaten or something like that) include all or almost all things that are sold in bulk and can be confused with grains.
I am currently speaking for the method in which legumes that were not present at the time of the decree are also prohibited.
——
Rabbi:
This method also does not prohibit legumes here, but rather the fear of leaven. Puk Chezi, is it appropriate to prohibit it because of it? Legumes are not just anything that is sold in bulk. These are empty excuses that come to defend a custom that has no meaning. But this does not protect this custom, but rather other things, as the Mushnet has taught.
You're talking about the possibility of being confused with grain, but we're talking here about the fear that grain will be found. These are two completely different flavors. The fear of being confused exists in waffles and cakes sold on Passover, and should we now introduce a new decree from our mind lest they get confused?!
——
Eric:
A. The original concern was (perhaps) that a bag of legumes might contain grain (due to mixing in the bags or for some other reason). Even today (in a significant number of places that sell legumes) it is possible to find grain or leaven in legumes.
So at most (assuming that the rabbi is right that there are other things that are commonly sold in bulk next to grain and sometimes grain falls there, I'm not entirely sure if this is the case with other things) there was room to expand the custom on the assumption that maintaining a custom also requires maintaining everything that falls under its original rationale, and this is a rather novel assumption in my opinion.
kid:
Rabbi Michal
B.E. So do you agree that this has been the case throughout history and propose that in times of need, a deviation from it be made while there is a Sanhedrin in Israel………?
This is what we really lack for change, the Sanhedrin. In our time, establishing a Sanhedrin is like a wolf living with a lamb, and we still haven't gotten there.
——
Rabbi:
Your words here are unclear. I'm not clear about what you're saying and especially what it refers to. It would be helpful to respond to what you're referring to so that I understand.
If you mean to refer to my statement that laws established by the Sanhedrin should not be changed without a Sanhedrin, that is not the case here. And if you mean to refer to my statement that policies that were traditionally made stricter should be changed where there is a fear of loopholes, then I have already explained elsewhere that there is authority to change policies. I argued this because policies are not laws, and therefore are subject to change even without a Sanhedrin. They should be examined according to their usefulness. But perhaps I did not understand your point.
——
kid:
Indeed, in order to change the words of the deceiver, a Sanhedrin or something of equal power is needed.
As I wrote my opinion, alone and publicly, this is a disgrace,
——
Rabbi:
Indeed, an innovation. To change the words of the Rema, do we need a Sanhedrin???
From now on, I must treat you as my master and knowledgeable rabbi who taught me something new.
I just have a question: Does this innovation itself, which has no origin, no father, no explanation or explanation, need a Sanhedrin? I wonder!
Moshe Kogan:
The truth is, I once found a wheat grain in a vacuum-packed bag of rice, but I really agree with what you're saying. Even the Ya'avetz wrote that this is a foolish custom, but it has no power to change it. And in general, if a person buys fresh legumes (corn, peas in pods, etc.), where is the problem? And speaking of customs, then the whole custom of "our water" stems from the idea that the sun at night heats the springs, and therefore the hot water could ferment the wheat/flour, and therefore they drew water earlier. So isn't there room to also abolish this foolishness (although there is of course a big difference, in that here we are talking about something that doesn't really matter, whereas the prohibition of legumes does pertain to what can be eaten on Passover. (And by the way, the whole "collection" of disposable dishes "kosher for Passover" started because of competition between merchants and the stupid kosher ones about bleach, and as they say, "Oylem Goylem", so if this is understood to be foolish and there is no need to be careful, why really should we "need" to act differently on the subject of legumes...)
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Rabbi:
I would cancel everything, and much more (the second Yot and the months of discernment and so on and so forth), but our water law (like the second Yot and the months of discernment) is a law and not a concern, and it can be argued that there is a need for a different minyan to permit it (although when the law is based on an error in reality, there is room to cancel it even without it, and as I wrote, laws are sometimes canceled without a different minyan).
kid:
Rabbi Michal
I'd rather send the question to you,
When all the jurists in recent generations thought they had no power to permit,
And if you were to ask them in what way there was an option and a reality that the matter would be further and removed, what would they answer in his honor?
——
Rabbi:
I have no idea and I don't understand why this is important.
kid:
From now on, I must treat you as my master and knowledgeable rabbi who taught me something new.
I addressed these things in the Bible, and it turns out that this is not so much a novelty as it is ancient.
——
Rabbi:
All sorts of emails were dropped here during the discussion, and mine got mixed up with yours. But I think we've exhausted them.
A:
This question came to me when I heard something from a friend about the rabbi's opinion on legumes, but it connected to the halakhic and thought-provoking clarification I'm trying to do. Let's say I decide that in my opinion (after checking, etc.) there is no reason not to eat legumes on Passover, and that God has no interest in it - should I continue to observe it because of customary laws? (What exactly is the place of Shema, son of your father's commandment, in comparison to clarification and behavior based on one's own halakhic clarification? Is it possible that any clarification will remain theoretical most of the time so as not to, let's say, 'withdraw from the public'?) And another side of the question - should I say that the reason it remains in the rabbinic tradition indicates that God wants me to behave this way?
——
Rabbi:
There are laws of custom and custom is a binding thing. But my argument is that petty things are not custom but just nonsense. Regarding the other side of the question: not necessarily. Custom is binding because there is a law of custom, and not necessarily because it expresses some truth.
As I explained here, legumes are not a custom but a concern, and therefore the entire discussion is irrelevant regarding this.
But I will answer my opinion regarding real customs. In customs, a distinction must be made between a custom of ruling and a custom that is not related to halakha. In my opinion, a custom to rule according to one opinion or another is not binding if you have your own position (not even to follow as a Sephardic author or as a Carma for Ashkenazi). But a non-halakhic custom is binding from the law of not abandoning, unless it is a foolish custom. With regard to such customs, there is no dependence on the essential question of whether God, the Blessed One, will or will not actually want this act. It is not done because it is a correct act, but because that is the custom. However, in a custom of ruling, there one must certainly search for the correct ruling. And there one must follow the custom only if you do not have your own position, as we found in Shas, if you do not know the most beautiful of women, follow the footsteps of the sheep (meaning that only if halakha has disappeared from you, do you follow the custom).
Metaphysical considerations regarding the will of God do not play in the halakhic arena. Even if they are correct, they are at most ex post facto explanations of halakhic principles. Thus, for us, the need to maintain customs can perhaps be explained by the fact that the preservation of the custom indicates that God wants it. But we follow the custom because of the halakhic principle itself (do not forsake it) and not because of the metaphysical explanations for it.
Nun:
Good week, Rabbi Michi,
I don't usually send you posts I write on Facebook, but this time I thought I would (especially in light of the debate I had with Rabbi Navon about it), maybe you'll like it:
1) Rabbi Yankela lived in Iria, Poland, about 250 years ago. One day he entered a meat processing plant and noticed that the packages of kosher meat (slaughtered by rabbis) were carelessly mixed with packages of meat from impure animals sold to gentiles. He was shocked, and when he told his friends, they said they had also encountered such a situation, and it turns out that there are several other plants that have suffered from the mistake of mixing the pure with the impure.
Since then, they have decided to ban the eating of meat altogether, due to the problems in the factories, lest they end up eating impure meat.
2) Rabbi Yodel lived in Iria, Hungary, about 250 years ago. One day he noticed that horse meat sold to Gentiles was very similar to cow meat. He told his friends about it, and they thanked him.
Since then, they have decided that they no longer eat meat at all, lest they come to eat horse meat.
3) After 250 years, when Jewish slaughterhouses are very careful that no impure meat reaches there, everything is packaged and inspected, and it is clearly indicated what type of meat it is, the Jews of Hungary and Poland still refrain from eating meat. This is contrary to the Torah, which permitted pure meat, contrary to all the Tan'an'i and Amora'im, and the great men of the first and last who all ate meat and did not consider it forbidden for any such reasons, but no one has risen to abolish this custom even though it is completely irrelevant and its logic is flawed.
4) The above story is a fiction and a parable that I made up in my mind on Shabbat when I returned from synagogue, but the custom of not eating legumes on Passover by Ashkenazi Jews and some Moroccan Jews is a true story. The great rabbis have already said that it is a foolish custom (and with great justification), and one of the great Ashkenazi rabbis has called for its abolition.
And yet... with all the progress of both Torah and scientific enlightenment, the change in actual reality, and the study of the roots of customs and laws, some Orthodox Jews continue this irrational custom because that is how their ancestors practiced it or because in their opinion a custom cannot be abolished (an opinion that stems from a lack of knowledge and familiarity with the extensive halachic literature of the last thousand years).
And I ask how long will an irrelevant and illogical tradition continue?
# Legumes as an example of the gap between common sense and reality and the orthodox institutional religion.
——
Rabbi:
Beautiful. And those are the things I wrote in the post.
Hello,
First of all, thank you, I knew about the matter, but I didn't act like that in practice. It was clear to me that no "ruling" was needed here that would allow it, where if there was any reason for a hypothetical "ruling" in the past, the reason for it has passed, and therefore the ruling must also be upheld. In the past, it didn't bother me much, but about a year ago I went vegan (for reasons of preventing suffering and ecological reasons) and it became really difficult on Passover. This upcoming Passover I will be eating legumes in full. I didn't feel in the past that this was something I would do alone (I have other matters that I believe must be fought for in halakhic terms, and I believe that every person in Orthodoxy must choose his battles carefully). Thank you for the support that you allow me to have...
It would be interesting to compare the issue of legumes on Passover among Ashkenazim to the issue of fish and milk among Sephardim (a scribal error)… To the best of my knowledge, among the Sephardim there is no shortage of rabbis who will allow it despite the “pseudo-custom of the fathers,” while among the Ashkenazim they take this whole issue much more seriously. It is also interesting where else in the rulings those differences are expressed.
Wishing you a Happy Purim…
Hananel
Naturally, Reform hysteria is more prevalent in Ashkenazi. Furthermore, long before that, Ashkenazi jurisprudence (at least the early one) was also more precedential and based on custom (=the Ashkenazim tend to act as they do).
In the book of the Holy Scriptures, Taharat 7
In Pesachim 52, it is explained that a local custom also binds future generations because, "Do not forsake the law of your mother," as Rabbi Yochanan instructed the sons of Bishan, whose ancestors had the custom of not sailing from Tyre to Sidon on Shabbat eve, and whose sons found it difficult to continue the custom. Rabbi Yochanan said to them, "Your ancestors have already accepted it upon themselves, as it is said, "Do not forsake the law of your mother."
According to the Ramban (cited in the book 'Masa Melech' by Rabbi Yosef Ibn Ezra, ed. Yad Rav Nissim, p. 176), this is a custom that was practiced as a restriction, and this is what he said: 'Not at all, customs: in a place where they practiced according to the Torah, custom, and were the first to know that there is no prohibition in it, but to make a restriction for a mitzvah is what they have made strict upon themselves... They are not permitted, even though they come to repeat them like the sons of Bishen.' (And this is what the Ritva and the Ran wrote, ibid., pp. 176-178).
According to the reason that the Samak wrote in the sign of the vehicle (a fear that God would mistake it for permitting grain as well, both of which constitute a kadira), and according to the reason that the Ritva wrote in Pesachim (a fear of mixing grains with legumes since they are mixed in the places where they are grown and packaged, which is why some have avoided eating them altogether and some have taken the stricter approach three times) – this is a custom that was practiced because of a reservation, which also obliges future generations.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
In the year 1227
In Yerushalmi (Challah 1:5 and Pesachim 2:4) it is implied that the disagreement between the Sages and Rabbi Yochanan ben Nuri stems from different results of tests conducted by each of the dissenters:
And the late:
Rabbi Yochanan ben Nuri said: A potter is required to make challah, since it comes with matzah and leaven. And the rabbis said: It does not come with matzah and leaven. And should they examine it? – They disagree about the main point of examining it. Rabbi Yochanan ben Nuri said: They examined it and found that it comes with matzah and leaven, and the rabbis said: They examined it and did not find that it comes with matzah and leaven.
Experiments conducted at the request of Dr. B.P. Monk (Tachumin, I, pp. 101-102) revealed that rice alone does indeed stink and not sour, but rice starch combined with the enzyme 'betral alpha-amylase' sours.
In contrast, Rabbi Ido Alba testifies: 'And here I tested this matter in reality (with my friend Rabbi Shimon Ginzburg) and saw that it is possible to make rice and millet rise without them smelling, and only if the dough stays for a long time does it smell' (Rich Matzah – Investigations into the Limits of Leavening, p. 49)
It appears that both in the days of the Tanach and in our own day, different experiments yielded different results. This fact invites a renewed, laboratory and Torah-based examination of the question of the feasibility of souring rice and legumes.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
The Rabbi already wrote that all of these things belong only when there is a Sanhedrin (according to the Maimonides in the introduction to the Laws of Mary), as there was during the time of the Bnei Bishen. I do not know whether the Maimonides disagreed with him or whether he also spoke in general terms of customary law without referring specifically to his time.
Regarding the taste of the Smak, see my words to Rabbi Shmuel Ariel. I also gave an example there from the example he himself gave of selling a thin animal to a gentile that was overturned by a high hand and without batting an eyelid in the Shulchan Arash. There, too, there was a reservation. Incidentally, I am talking about a concern and not about a custom or reservation. And in particular, that it is not a custom of all of Israel but rather certain communities within it.
As for the rice, I would rather they look into it. If they ban it from the law, I would see something completely legitimate in it. But it has nothing to do with the custom of legumes, of course. That's a completely different discussion.
Ayalon, the custom is valid even without the Sanhedrin.
With regard to the custom created during the Sanhedrin period, this is clear. But with regard to the custom created outside the Sanhedrin period, the Rabbi says that this is only in the case where the custom still has a reason (good reason). It is not yet clear on what basis (unless one believes that it is a vow, but then one still needs to allow vows. The other reasons, such as the law of your mother and do not go beyond the bounds of the world, are still not exactly understood by me – are they words of Kabbalah? So this too is from the Rabbis). It seems that the Sanhedrin is turning a custom into something like a regulation, and even if a reason is nullified, a regulation is not nullified (the Maimonides mentions decrees, regulations, and customs as concepts that differ with different laws). I do not know why the Rabbi says that legume is not called a custom but a fear. In practice, if people, out of fear of their past, "got used" not to eat legumes, it is called a custom. There was a conscious decision here not to eat legumes, and it seems that it became something that was established back in their time. If there was a Sanhedrin during the time of the Rishonim (and the custom was widespread throughout Israel), then legume would have been nullified. But in the great Jewish law of wisdom and reason. (I am personally not sure that the rabbi is right that if a taste is nullified, then a custom is nullified (without the Sanhedrin). But then we need to find a good definition for when something becomes a custom. Is it obligatory to spin spinning tops and eat donuts on Hanukkah?)
I didn't say that a custom is only valid if it has a reason. What I said is that if it has no reason, then it is right to abolish it if it brings
Harm (like blasphemy in our day).
And all of this is only with regard to the custom of the 14th century, and that is what the Rambam speaks of there, which he included in "not to forsake." On the other hand, a custom that is practiced "from below" (whose validity is based on "do not forsake," and according to some opinions - puzzling to the rabbinate - on the law of a vow) when its cause is certainly null and void is null and void. That is what I called a concern, not a custom. As long as one is concerned, then it is certainly worth worrying about. But when the concern is null and void, there is no reason to continue to worry about it (and at most, it is appropriate to make a vow revocation, alongside a vow that has faded like a vow and if it was practiced by a rabbi). Therefore, a custom that is "from below" that is void and void is null and void. And when it brings harm, then it is certainly worth canceling it.
This is only because you buy the legumes at the supermarket, where the legumes are packaged and relatively clear.
If you went to the market to buy legumes by weight, you would see that mixing wheat grains is very common (legumes also enrich the soil with nitrogen, so many people sow legumes and wheat alternately, which may further increase the chances of interference).
As mentioned, according to this, legumes should be prohibited for all ethnic groups and communities. This is about the fear of chametz and not about "forbidding legumes" or any other custom. And certainly there should be no distinction between green and other legumes, those that were in their time and those that were not.
It is truly more understandable the opinion of those who do not distinguish between legumes that existed in their day and legumes. "Most of the new legumes are not legumes in any sense. Neither from a fear of mixing nor from a botanical point of view. And it seems to me that most of those who avoid legumes also avoid new legumes (avoiding corn, peanuts, soy, and quinoa, which were unknown to many of our ancestors).
The opinion that divides between old and new legume crops believes that this is an explicit ruling, perhaps even from Talmudic law (this is the opinion of the Gra and the Pharisees), whose meaning may not be significant today, but the nullification of the meaning does not invalidate a regulation.
Regarding differences between denominations, and is there something unique about different denominations having different restrictions? The Ashkenazi denominations used to not eat legumes because of the fear of mixing (which is still alive and kicking today), the Sephardic denominations used to carefully select the legumes (because of the same fear).
I don't understand that, nor does it. At most, there should be a distinction between legumes that are at risk of containing a mixture of leaven and those that are not, and this varies from place to place and from time to time.
Is there really a difference between a custom that the Sanhedrin established on their own or that the people established on their own and the Sanhedrin did not protest? In chapter 1 of the Book of the Laws, the Rambam speaks of "letting the people abide by this custom" and in chapter 2, "they issued a decree or established a regulation or instituted a custom" (with regard to their removal in Halacha 2, and in Halacha 3 with regard to the fact that if there was a restriction to the Torah 1A, it should be abolished forever). Rabbi Shilat in the book Al Kedamot Rambam does not distinguish between them and claims that every custom is an initiative of the people, as opposed to a regulation that is an initiative of the Sanhedrin (perhaps from the word "tikkun" for "correcting something that is broken," although this is not always true in the Rambam's language). It is possible that with regard to the restriction, these are only decrees as stated in the second part of Halacha 2 and the rest of the laws that are there until the end of the chapter (except for the beginning of Halacha 5), as well as as we hear from the Rambam's introduction to the Mishnah in the fourth part of the Toshabeh sections (a decree from the word "gader" with the substitution of "reish" and "delat"). The N.F.K. The big one is regarding the issue of seven clean days (of the people who are not in the fields), which seems to be a custom (not a rule or a decree) that the women of Israel practiced on their own. Will they really never be able to abolish this custom, even when there is a Sanhedrin?
Personally, I really don't know whether the Rambam should be precise about this or whether he simply shortened his words in the rest of Chapter 2 and also refers to regulations and customs. Also, "they introduced a custom" is an abbreviation for "they left the people to their custom." Otherwise, what exactly is the difference between a custom that was introduced and a regulation? (Perhaps these are two different names in reality, but formally they are the same thing.)
I'm also not clear about the difference. Maybe the Jewish Court determined something as a non-binding custom, and only when it was accepted did it become a Jewish Court custom that requires cancellation. This is in contrast to a regulation that is valid by virtue of the regulation itself. But I don't have a good answer to that.
Hello Rabbi,
Thanks for an enlightening article.
One of the reasons for prohibiting legumes is that there may be confusion, etc. Is there room today to permit regular legumes, but to prohibit things that there is a concern about confusion? For example, kosher waffles for Passover, kosher bread for Passover, etc.? In these things, there may be a concern about confusion between chametz and them.
In the Book of Revelation 30:1-17
To Alon – Greetings,
Indeed, Rabbi Yoel Ben-Nun believes that, for the reason that the prohibition of legumes was replaced with leaven, things similar to leaven, such as waffles and cakes, should be prohibited.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
Sounds delusional to me. We do not have the power to renew decrees on our own. If you want to be concerned – please do. And the "prohibition" of legumes is not a sufficient basis, since it was also established without authority (therefore, as stated, it is clear that there is no prohibition here, but concern). If you accept the ability of the first to establish a prohibition, then we ourselves also have such an ability. So establish a prohibition and that's it. So from the perspective of the Jewish religious community, I do not understand why one should rely on the delusion of legumes.
Rabbi Michi Shalom!
I write in my turmoil.
Someone asked me to read your strong words about the custom of not eating legumes on Passover. These words convinced her, and greatly weakened her devotion to the matter.
I read.
After some time, I went to our pantry and looked at the package of quinoa we had bought (since I had decided to trust the lighteners in quinoa, not to consider it a legume included in the custom). I discovered that the package clearly states – “Allergen Information: May contain wheat”! In other words, your strong evidence of the extreme caution currently practiced due to celiac disease has no basis.
In addition, it is written regarding the product's kosherness for Passover that it is kosher for Passover for those who eat legumes, but that it must be checked. Orit Tzadzikat sat down to check it, and indeed discovered a number of grains of another grain in it – probably oats (we are not knowledgeable enough to identify).
I don't have a package of rice at home to check what it says on it, but I can't help myself.
You – have you checked what is written on a package of rice?
It seems you didn't check what was written on the quinoa package, and that you didn't choose a single package of quinoa or rice. Maybe I'm wrong.
But if I'm right – how can you use such harsh derogatory expressions about someone who does maintain the custom, without checking? How can you claim that you've never found wheat in a package of rice, if you've never looked? Do you know what a grain of oats looks like, and how big it is? It's probably quite tiny.
Doesn't disrespect for a Vatican custom without proper examination also constitute blasphemy?
Happy Holidays!
Hello Rabbi A.
Hope you are well.
I appreciate your words, and I'm glad you wrote to me about it and that you have a proven track record. By the way, my words have already been helpful in preventing an obstacle from eating quinoa and the leaven grains in it.
Let me start by saying that those words of mine were written a few years ago, and they were also written in a storm, hence the harshness in the wording. I did indeed overdo it in my harshness and I regret that, but I completely stand by my words. I was simply annoyed by this nonsense that occupies almost our entire “screen” during Passover, sparks groundless scholarly discussions, and causes endless chatter and major misunderstandings in the public. In any case, I stand by my position that this foolish custom must be abolished.
I wrote that I heard about the claims that packages of legumes contain chametz grains, and as I wrote, I did not find any in the rice (I am not a quinoa eater). But I already wrote in my original comments that this can happen (and not just in legumes), and that still does not explain this strange custom. If there is a concern about chametz grains – I would expect it to be prohibited for all of Israel and not just for those who practice the prohibition on legumes. Beyond that, what is the point of distinguishing between legumes that were present at the time this custom/concern was formed or were not then, or distinguishing between green legumes and others. Is there no concern that packages of legumes that were not present at the time or pink legumes may contain wheat or oat grains? You yourself wrote here that you decided to be lenient with quinoa because it is not included in the “decree.” And I wonder what the definition of the “decree” has to do with the concern about chametz? All these divisions and easings and tightenings that everyone is talking about on Passover (international blasphemy in my opinion) lose their meaning according to your argument. All these (stupid) halachic discussions should be canceled and all legumes, and in fact all packaged legumes, and not necessarily legumes, should be declared forbidden as leavened bread and not given kosher status. Is that what you are proposing? If so, then your argument is not directed at me.
My argument is that if there is a concern about chametz in the packaging of something – they should respect it and ban it and not give it kosher for Passover (if only to prevent the Sephardim, who in your opinion devour chametz on Passover for their appetite, from the prohibition), or they should tell everyone (including the Ashkenazim) to check before use (and in fact it is very desirable before Passover, because during the holiday there is no way to see if it is present in less than a handful, or at least there is a concern that it will be eaten). And if, as you argue against me, people do not know the difference between wheat grains or oats, then the option to check does not exist and legumes should be banned for everyone (I assume you are not claiming that only I, the little one, do not understand anything about this, but the rest of the Jewish people do know how to distinguish between tekhel and kala ilan and between rice and oats). We are really failing the masses with the chametz prohibition, aren't we? So how is everyone silent?!
In short, none of this has anything to do with the custom of legumes or the “edict” (which, I argue, never existed, was never created, and there is no such thing as a parable). And there is certainly no place to prohibit things that involve something related to legumes (the fear of legumes in a cottage) and other nonsense. These strange defenses that constantly emanate a strong apologetic odor in relation to the custom of legumes are what aroused my anger in the first place, as they involve great blasphemy. People understand that this is nonsense (and rightly so), and serious scholars of Torah repeat it seriously and pepper it with divisions regarding the laws of legumes as if there is something real in it. In my opinion, this really makes the halacha a sham, and that is precisely what made me tired of writing these things. The crazy proportions that this thing takes on in the face of this colossal nonsense (the Rebbe of Gur’s broom becomes the essence of Passover) are, in my opinion, grave blasphemy, and indicate a shameful abjection of the halacha.
In conclusion, I accept your comment about the harshness of the wording. But my argument is that the custom is a foolish custom and should be abolished. If there is a concern about chametz, please treat it as with any other concern about chametz and do not allow half of the Jewish people to eat chametz on Passover in a fancy kosher manner. The blasphemy is caused by those who practice in this way, much more than those who warn about it (even if blasphemy). The fact that they continue with it all the time and are unwilling to admit their mistake is, in my opinion, the greatest blasphemy.
Times of joy and farewell,
May I ask what kosher status the quinoa had?
Dear Rabbi Michi!
I like the sharp words on your tongue.
I'll get into the nitty gritty:
1. So, are you willing to admit that the main claim you made, that today this severity has no realistic basis, since the production processes are free of gluten concerns due to celiac disease - that this claim is incorrect?
2. Your claim about the disproportionate amount of discussion on this subject: I am embarrassed. How can I continue the discussion without falling into this sin? In the law pamphlet that I distributed in my community ahead of Passover, the topic of legumes occupied a very small percentage of the space. Therefore, I propose, in order for us to continue the discussion, that we share the blame equally. Let's say this as a general claim - the disproportionate discussion arises every year at least equally by both sides. Therefore, this is an irrelevant claim. After all, the question of who is to blame for this inappropriate discussion, or who is causing the blasphemy, is the desired assumption - whoever is found to be wrong at the end of the discussion will be found to be the cause of the blasphemy. So for God's sake, let's leave that aside and focus on the discussion itself.
3. The claim that it is a concern and not a custom – I am not clear about the depth of the claim. Where does this sharp distinction come from? The Rema writes that it is a custom. The Hatas writes that it is a vow of many, which has no permission. Are you making your claim based on historical sources? Halachic? It just seems to you? If it just seems to you – then it is at most a possibility, but it is legitimate (and not stupid) for someone to think differently than you. Do you have evidence that it is a concern and not a custom?
4. Let's assume that this is indeed a concern and not a custom. Why then do you think it should be treated the same way by Sephardim and Ashkenazim? Maybe there is a real concern, it exists to this day (as I saw on the quinoa packaging), and different communities have introduced different ways to deal with it? (When I wrote a real concern, I meant to say that it has a realistic basis). The particular way in which one community or another used to deal with the problem becomes a custom that should be preserved as an ancestral custom. It's like the custom of waiting so and so many hours between meat and milk, or of distancing oneself in various ways from having many wives. The concern is fundamentally a realistic concern, even if distant, and different communities have introduced different ways to beware of this concern. Why does the way I used to beware of this concern require the Sephardim? They distanced themselves by intensively choosing legumes, while the Ashkenazim by abstaining from eating them.
5. I don't understand your claim that you need to sort it out before Passover. The grain in the package is not leavened. But if I cook it on Passover without sorting it out – then I will be violating the prohibition of not being seen. Therefore, it is not permissible to cook it on Passover without sorting it out. In fact, according to Ashkenazi custom, it is permissible to cook on Passover, and apparently the concern was perceived as so realistically low that they were content with caution about eating it, which is a much more severe prohibition than the prohibition of not being seen or not being found.
6. Regarding the difficulty of sorting – it’s really hard. Orit sorted the quinoa three times, as it says on the package. She found oats the second time too! It took a lot of time and concentration. She also testified that if the children were around her, she wouldn’t have been able to find them. The leadership of not eating is very understandable to me, at least as an option, it’s certainly not stupid.
7. I still don't understand – have you checked what it says on the rice packaging? Is there a concern about gluten or not?
8. I still don't get it – did you sit and choose a package of rice three times before you wrote what you wrote?
Happy Holidays and Happy Shabbat!
To my friend Oz, the Holy One of Israel, may you be blessed in me. Before whom are you purifying yourself and who is purifying you (that's what friends are for).
To the substance of your words, I say this (not in the order of your paragraphs, but I hope I addressed them all):
A. Regarding the actual concern you raised. Indeed, following your words, I went back and saw that there are packages that have a warning (some are formulated for traces of gluten and some are formulated for fear of grains) and some are not. For example, rice products such as rice flour and rice noodles are sold without a warning at all and with simple kosher for Passover for legume eaters (where it is no longer possible to determine). In any case, I am willing to admit that my claim that there is no concern about the presence of grains because of celiac disease is incorrect regarding grain packaging. But this too, of course, has nothing to do with legumes. This can be true for many types of packaging, regardless of legumes in their accepted definition for Passover.
All of this, of course, is based on the factual concern of the presence of grains. To arrive at the prohibition of chametz from here, one must also discuss the laws of sufficiency and cancellation before and during Passover.
B. In legume products (which are not available for selection, such as rice flour or rice noodles), and certainly in products where there is concern about a mixture of legumes, such as cottage cheese or dairy delicacies, etc., there is no reason to prohibit it.
Now we will return to the packaging that was the subject of the discussion.
C. I choose rice once because it sounds reasonable to me both for Passover and on a regular day. I am sure that if there are grains then there could also be cases where in the fourth choice you will find some grain and there is no end to the story. In my experience I did not find wheat or other suspicious grains. Of course, it is possible that I was mistaken because of the similarities or that my packaging was clean (by chance or not by chance), but if so then all of Israel could be mistaken in that it is not right to order permission to eat based on choice. And even if you do a G.P. it will not be useful to someone who does not distinguish between the grains.
D. The concern about chametz is only if water has come onto the grains, of course. But this is the very concern that prevents leaving packages of wheat grains (or flour) at home on Passover. If so, even legumes are not forbidden, and one must fear that water has come onto them, which is why I wrote that one must check before Passover. And indeed, some of the poskim also forbade legumes that did not come onto them, and these are truly miraculous things (part of the same disproportion that I described that legumes were made a hafza prohibition in the P"an).
E. Everything you mentioned is not a reason to prohibit legumes, but rather a fear of leaven. It really does not overlap with the prohibition/custom of legumes. And of course all the different distinctions between legumes that were or were not at the time of the decree/custom are irrelevant. The question is where is there a fear of leaven today and where is there not. That's all.
F. My distinction between custom and suspicion is between two categories that can be called custom by the Poskim. Therefore, their language is not evidence. Even a custom that is based on suspicion is called custom by them (and as is known, sometimes such language is used because of businessmen who have come out against it), and of course there is also a custom that is a mere custom. My argument is that concerns are valid as long as there is concern and when there is none, there is none (unless they are stipulated in a regulation of an authorized rabbi, in which case there are opinions that a great rabbi should wisely and with due regard for the minyan cancel them even if the reason is null. Although this should also be rejected, and so on). It should be added here that this concern arose at a time when there was no longer any authority to establish a prohibition on the matter, and therefore I do not accept the term "edict" nor its validity when the reason is null. I will note that the multitude of reasons in explaining this custom indicates that there is nothing clear here, and the various concerns indicate an apologetics that in retrospect we would not have feared if we had not had to defend a custom that has lost its legitimacy (Rabbi Midan would say that he knows 22 interpretations of why the Book of Ruth is read on Shavuot but only one of why the Book of Esther is read on Purim).
G. The difference between the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities is not in the treatment of the fear of chametz, but in the custom of eating legumes. If there is a real fear of chametz, I do not see a community that would allow such a thing. And if the fear is not significant but very remote, there is no reason to fear it in such proportions. As I wrote, my outcry is mainly because of the contrast between the intensity of the fear and the proportion of the concern about it. Especially according to your opinion that the fear is not remote at all. After all, in a random package that you checked in your house, you found chametz. So what is the point of treating it differently between the communities? Do you really think that there are rabbis who would allow the possession of wheat grains in the house. Many even forbid selling wheat grains to a gentile (of course because of the fear that they will get wet). And if they are afraid that people do not know how to distinguish (as you wrote about me), then there is no difference between Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities, of course.
H. When I said it covers the entire "screen," I didn't mean that rabbis and poskim who deal with Passover law only touch on this or mainly on this. But your people Israel deal mainly with this. Go out and see what they're looking for when shopping at a store or supermarket. What do they check? Almost all the discussions and checks regarding Passover prohibitions (and I assume that a significant portion of the questions you're asked are also about legumes. Beyond that, there are all the divisions that poskim make on this issue, even though, as mentioned, this is not their main concern.
I. The source of my words is the lack of proportion in dealing with something that is at most a distant concern, and the handling of it depends on distinctions, some of which are unrelated to the concern, and this is the main thing that concerns the general public with regard to Passover. All of this is completely unreasonable in my opinion.
Baha Salkinen:
1. There is no prohibition on legumes, but there are cases where there is a concern about the presence of chametz grains. These are two completely different things and there is no reason for differences between the customs of the denominations in this regard (except for differences in rulings between them on halachic questions, such as rich matzah, etc.).
2. The concern is remote, and it only exists in products that are packages of granules.
3. These are packages of grains that are not actually legumes in the accepted halachic sense, but according to the reality of our day. Therefore, there is no point in discussing formal distinctions about "legume classification" and what is included therein.
4. Even if there are grains, there is no reason to fear the prohibition of chametz, due to the laws of doubt and nullification, etc.
5. In a situation of such packaging, if one nevertheless takes the view that there is a prohibition, then it is for all of Israel and not just for Ashkenazim, at least for those like me who do not know how to distinguish oats from quinoa. And those who know, even if they are Ashkenazim, are permitted to do so. And if one fears for those who do not know, then again everyone should be prohibited. There is a great urge to hang the differences in custom on the law of recitation and shaking on Passover (which also regarding the division into denominations does not coincide with the custom of legumes).
6. In products that are not packaged grains, meaning almost all of the supermarket (cottage cheese or dairy delicacies with concerns about legumes, not to mention oil and legume products), there is nothing to ban and there is nothing to discuss.
I admitted to a mistake regarding the possibility of finding a grain in the package. Do you acknowledge me in the above summary?
To the Moharra, who resides in XXX and whose fortress extends to Lod. I hope that he and his family are well. First, a few weeks ago I remembered the Toss in Bitzah 6a, i.e., the ‘Vahida’, which defines the concept of fear and states that it is void without the need for a minyan (we ended our previous discussion with this): And the idna is like this: My friends are chayshinan – Pharisees who compel Israel to do work and when it is the 19th, they are placed there and if they see that their dead are being buried, they will compel them to do work and a minyan is not permissible at this time, and it cannot be said that another minyan is needed to permit a minyan. This is the reason because of fear and transgression. The fear is transgression. And the Lord said, “We drank water from the waters of the exiles, lest a snake drink from it, and now that there are no snakes among us, it is clear that we drink from it even from the beginning, even though it is something that the minyan and the rabbinic Rabbi would have prohibited. Second, today I received a YouTube clip from Rabbi David Bar Chaim on The legumes, and maybe you'll find it interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RACQCNzcrEg I wrote a few comments about his words in my response: I of course agree in principle. Still, a few comments:
1. It does not address the difference between fear and custom.
2. His hypothesis about the Karaite origin sounds very speculative.
3. He refers to custom as a local custom, but I think that today this is an anachronistic interpretation. Once upon a time, when the world was static, custom was by place. Today, custom is by origin. This is the case with "do not crowd together," for example (which is also mentioned at the end of his remarks).
4. His words about unity are nonsense in my opinion, from beginning to end.
5. I completely agree with his conclusion, that today this foolish custom occupies the entire "screen" and overshadows the true content of Passover. Disruption of thought, waste of energy, etc. Greetings to everyone. Mikhi Avraham, while listening to the words of Rabbi David Bar Haim: Regarding the Toss - I understand that a law based on fear, if the fear is nullified, it is likely that the law will be nullified. A law based on custom - not so. But a few questions remain: 1. Is there evidence that petty things are based on fear and not on custom? 2. How do we treat a custom that was created because of fear? 3. How do we treat a custom that may have been created because of fears, but we do not know for sure because of what fear? Does it also say there that if the fear that we assume is the root of the custom is nullified, the custom is nullified?
While I listen to what Rabbi David Bar Chaim said: Regarding the Toss – I understand that a law based on fear, if the fear is eliminated, it is likely that the law will be eliminated. A law based on custom – not so. But a few questions remain:
1. Is there evidence that pettiness is based on fear and not custom?
2. How should we treat a custom that was created out of fear?
3. How should we treat a custom that may have been created because of concerns, but we do not know for sure because of what concern?
Does it also say there that if the fear that we assume is the root of the custom is invalid, the custom is invalid?
1. Simply because I don't see any other basis there. He himself speaks of a mistake (the perception that there is leavening in legumes). So there is no fundamental reason. What remains are various hypotheses, all of which are based on fears (either fear of the presence of leaven or fear of Ethi's replacement with leaven). What else could it be?
If this was a custom not based on fear, then it is a foolish custom. After all, the Gemara itself tells the Hadith that there is no problem with legumes?
2. I don't know if there is a custom for something like this. If it is a concern, then as long as there is a concern, it should be done this way. When does a concern become a custom, and why? What is the logic in turning a concern into a custom, after all, everything that is practiced is only because of the concern. So why would some combination anchor it regardless of the concern? It makes no sense. Alternatively, when does a concern remain a concern and not become a custom? When it is short-lived? It is not reasonable in my opinion.
3. If it was created because of a concern and we don't know what kind of concern, then from our perspective there is no concern. The obvious conclusion is that in their time there was probably a concern and now there is no concern. Especially since we have reasonable suggestions for such concerns (those raised by the Rishonim: Ethi Lahalofi or a concern about the presence of leaven). So why assume that there is a concern that has disappeared that we are not thinking about? This is the method of hidden reasons that is brought up in the name of the Gra, and for Anad it is unreasonable. It is like explaining the rule that punishments are not punishable by law with a concern that there may be a pirka (this is how some of the Rishonim explained it). This can be asked about any explanation that we raise, not just about a pirka. Maybe there is a pirka? We haven't heard that pirkas are not used. If we haven't found a concern today, then there is no concern. And if they were concerned, then there was probably a concern in their time (what's more, the Rishonim themselves explained it this way).
I'm not sure I understood you correctly, but it seems from the quote that there are only two things –
1. Fear. And even if it has crystallized into a custom, it still functions as a fear, meaning that the abolition of the fear will result in the abolition of the law.
2. A custom that is not based on fear, then it is a foolish custom.
In your opinion, is there a custom that, on the one hand, is not a foolish custom, but on the other hand, does not function as a concern? If not, then there is no place for the concept of "custom" in halakha.
There are certainly such customs. For example, decorating the markets of Jerusalem with fruit (although this was a regulation, but such a thing can also be a custom), plucking willow (a custom of the prophets), praising the Lord, and more.
The general definition in my opinion is the following: a custom is a valuable way of serving God, which has a good reason (spiritual benefit) but is not a halachic obligation from the main point of view. This is of course mainly in positive commandments, but there is a place for such customs in prohibitions as well. For example, staying away from a prohibition (not out of fear but as an extension of the prohibition. As is the case with the Shvutim, some of which are an extension of the Torah and others are a strict ruling from the Torah). Alternatively, waiting six hours between meat and milk is an extension of a custom. Stricter eating according to a minority opinion can be a custom. And much more on this path.
But a concern becomes a law only through the determination of an authorized rabbinic court (Sanhedrin) and not as a custom. For example, the prohibition of eating poultry in milk was established in the Talmud or Sanhedrin. Regarding such a case, it is said that even if the reason is nullified, the regulation/decree is not nullified except in a different minyan (and according to Maimonides, only if it is great in wisdom and minyan. And the Rabbad disagrees with this). But the legume laws were created at a stage when the rabbinic court no longer exists, and therefore this path is closed to us. What remains is either custom or concern. Therefore, talk of "decreeing legume laws" is, in my opinion, absurd on its face, regardless of the reasons for the prohibition.
And what's more, today even soap for cleaning floors is kosher for Passover (a decree lest a nose fall to the ground, as is well known), and they can just as easily sell quinoa with kosher for Passover. The concerns are no less great than with any other kosher product.
All of your chatter here is a joke...
You are having a discussion from your plate.
You forget that among the people of Israel there are a million peoples from other countries who do not know the laws.
Therefore, the problems that the Poskim discussed are still relevant today.
Not everyone is as learned as you, and some of you, within the framework of your personal learning, also have the audacity to disparage the great sages of previous generations.
And therefore, we do not change this "nonsense" custom precisely for the sake of your simple people, Israel.
On the 16th of Elul, 8th of August.
To David – Greetings,
Besides the reason for the Smak, who feared that God would make a mistake, there is also the fear of the Ritva on Passovers of a mixture of wheat grains with legumes due to their proximity to the place of growth (and in the packing houses), which is why the Ritva used to check the legumes three times on Passover, and the Sephardic people still do so to this day. Refraining from eating legumes on Passover saves women the trouble of checking three times and allows them to rest during the holiday from their hard work of cleaning and preparing the house and free up time for more pleasant pursuits. So it seems that even when the vision of "And all your sons shall be taught by God" is fulfilled, righteous women will prefer to forgo legumes for a week.
With best wishes for a Happy New Year, a year of freedom and greatness, Shatz Levinger
https://m.ynet.co.il/Articles/5497230
In the Bible, Nach Nachman is a trained person, etc.
To Rev. Dr. M. A., Hello, I'm new around here and I really enjoyed reading your (interesting) opinions.. and this is where my heart is.
Tells me that the suffocation caused to him and the rest of our Ashkenazi brothers/cousins due to the shortage of legumes – he is the one who caused it.
Let him shoot the arrow with the apple.
What His Honor distinguishes between custom and fear is a correct and simple distinction, but the weak argument has no place here at all.
This is because we have forgotten a necessary parameter for a situation of "concern" here, and that is - that the thing be prohibited by law due to the concern, and then indeed
It is not at all appropriate to lead future generations according to the past, but something that was permitted by law and yet our ancestors practiced it.
A restriction and a fence because of a harsh punishment (or anything else) is like a permanent custom that cannot be canceled, despite what the Talmud says.
The terrible ones will not come to the one who cancels, even in a dream (smiley of the first [terrible] snake??).
I do not believe that there is any need to provide evidence that this custom is a grave offense and not in accordance with the principle of the law, since they were among the latter.
They wanted to allow it (Ya'vatz) and some wrote that they did not accept the first generations in place of poverty and drought (and indeed I did not know a clear source for this, but I did not search for it and in the meantime I do not fear them lying..), according to Arvah (133:5) and Responsa Hatas (Part 1, Orch. 1, 222-222) and other later ones, and in some of the later ones they wrote reasons such as "I am not subject to change", etc., which belong to someone who does not know how to distinguish or
Among the people of the land and the like – and in short – that do not constitute an indication of a prohibition from the principle of the law.
Likewise, it is not a foolish custom according to the Maharish (Laws of Passover): Legumes of all kinds, Maharash Degzrinan said, should not be cooked on Passover, even though they do not miss out on the five kinds, wheat, barley, spelt, oats, and rye. In any case, all kinds of legumes are forbidden. And let no one say that because there is no prohibition from the Torah, it is not necessary to feel, for whatever the Rabbis decreed, whoever transgresses it is liable to death, and transgressors cannot deviate from the matter that is prescribed. Nor should it be said that a custom here is permissible, since the custom is wrong, especially regarding a matter that is completely permissible, and there are places where a prohibition is practiced in which it is practiced, one can say that it is a permissible custom here. … But a thing that is simply forbidden and comes to be permitted by virtue of a custom there, will shut the mouths of those who speak lies… and so on.
And another comment – I read here and there about you questioning authority. From your words I understood that there is appreciation and love in you (hidden perhaps..)
To the greatest of generations, but with all this, as the philosopher said – our Lord is loved, but the truth is loved by us. True and stable.
Alas, and a very great alas – if the Maharil (who was a great man, as it turns out) writes that the one who transgresses it is liable to death (and by the way, it is not clear to me how he transgresses against the law of non-sedition?) and “the mouths of those who speak lies will be stopped,” and all the great men of the last and first generations refer to the legume decree as a custom and not as a concern, according to your observation – I would suggest that we consider the matter again before shoving a grain of rice in our mouths, and if it were true, no grains were found in the legume decree and they took the legume decree out to the city gate and stoned it, as our holy Torah says, and as our sages of old say, “You shall multiply and you shall eat” (ibid., ibid.) [I think I was precise..]
And another tiny note – the one who forbids legumes out of respect for the holiday is not Rabbi Pelaji, but none other than our Rabbi Menoah.
May God bless you (!!!!) and I will copy his language for our troubled rabbi so that he does not waste his time searching for things:
Rabbi Manoah (Halal Chametz 5:1)
It is written in the Book of Customs that the custom of the whole world is not to eat zera'onim on Passover, because they leaven, and therefore they are called chitsami. It is not clear to say that the custom depends on a general prohibition, since there is no leavening in any legume in the world, but rather because one does not need to eat legumes on the occasion, since it is written, "And you shall rejoice in your holiday," and there is no joy in eating a legume dish. There is no doubt that if one wants to eat zera'onim on Passover and similarly with other types of legumes, it is permissible, and there is no fear of prohibition at all. However, they did, as they said in the Yerushalmi chapter where they did, anything that is permitted and is contrary to prohibition is questioned and permitted. Thus the pure.
May Freud's denial mechanism never arise in you.
And continue to be the most perfect Jew.
Thank you for the enjoyable reading on the site, and soon one of my friends got me one of your books.
And for them too, thank you in advance.
Ahhh…. And also for your response.
Anonymous (for fear of being ripped off)
All the things, including our Rabbi Manoah, have already been answered here. And I will stand by my guard. Everything has been explained. And what the great men of the generations wrote differently, their honor is in their place, but I do not agree. I assume that they wrote yes to the answer of the species out of fear that they would come to permit what is actually forbidden (and perhaps this is the meaning of what the Maharil wrote that the fetus is liable to death, which of course lacks any basis or basis). And for the Enad, this is the wrong policy for our generation, when all the information is exposed to all eyes.
Sorry for opening the unexplained lines, I simply pressed ENTER in the comment panel when it seemed to me that the line had ended.
Unfortunately, I didn't read all the comments, so I'll write here even though the matter may have been discussed during the comments:
In my opinion, the fact that they preserved the customs, including this one, came from a lot of conservatism, both logical conservatism for fear of any deviation from the path followed in the parents' home and from a conservative nature [anyone who knows Hungarian elders, for example, knows that they will distribute Hanukkah money exactly the amount that their father distributed and they will devote their souls to singing the melody that their father sang - with people like that, who were at certain levels a high percentage of the people of Israel, it is natural that any custom would be preserved.
At the same time, there is room to ask about our sages like the Gra and others, since they were independent and did not adhere to what their ancestors practiced [while the Gra even adhered to the original halakha of the Sages] why they continued to observe the custom]
I would be happy if you addressed the entire issue of observing customs in your articles, because it seems to me that you believe that there is no place today for a man to observe what was practiced in his father's house more than what was practiced in his neighbor's house, and to challenge the entire concept common in our time, "Do not forsake your mother's teachings."
This is not customary in our time. Observing customs is part of the halakha, and Medina DaGmaara. Therefore, I do not dispute that. I only dispute the absoluteness of the matter. When there is a need and certainly when harm is caused, there is room to deviate from the custom. In particular, petty matters are not originally a custom but a concern (although today they already are).
What about the method of the RTA in the egg that you brought up earlier, which needs to be canceled from the beginning?
I didn't understand. I no longer remember what the question was and which RA. Please elaborate.
I wholeheartedly agree to abolish the excessive smallness decree in the people of Israel, but it is not easy to abolish it because it has already become a tradition among stubborn communities in the people of Israel. Please see the following:
The tradition of the Passover Seder is stronger than a mitzvah from the Torah.
How many Torah commandments do we have in the Passover Seder? (3) In fact, all the rest are rabbinical commandments and customs according to tradition.
The life of a Jew is conducted, among other things, according to: Torah commandments, rabbinic commandments, customs, and tradition.
The Passover night seder is not traditional, consisting of only three commandments. Eating matzah, as it is said: In the evening you shall eat matzah, the story of the Exodus from Egypt, and the blessing of the food. However, there is no hint in the Torah to conduct a seder on the night of Passover. Regarding the commandment of the story of the Exodus from Egypt, it is written in the Torah: "And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say to you, What is this service to you? And you shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Passover to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians...".
Because if we pay attention and read precisely the verse written in the Torah, regarding the eating of the meat of the Passover sacrifice: "And they shall eat the meat on this night, roasted with fire..." eating matzah, as it is written later: "And matzah...", and eating marjoram, according to the end of the verse: "He shall eat it with bitter things." ..."
Why do we not eat meat roasted with fire on the night of Passover? Because the Temple does not exist today. And because due to the current situation it is not possible to observe it at all, because without the meat of the Passover sacrifice, we are not obligated to eat all three of these factors, but together, perhaps we would be exempt from eating matzah and maror altogether. But there is a separate mitzvah to eat matzah. Therefore, we nullify the mitzvah from the Torah to eat all three together. Rather, the mitzvah of the rabbinic order to eat maror is a reminder of this mitzvah.
But the conduct of the Seder is according to tradition that has been handed down from generation to generation, and its transmission continues without interruption and without fundamental change, even though it includes additions that have been added over time. For example, the sanctification of the day, four cups, karpas, immersions in salt water and khrusot, and the hasaba. They are only traditional customs, and the Seder does not change.
Let's say a certain family established a different Seder practice, that the eating of the matzah would be done immediately after asking the four questions, and the eating of the bittern would be done when they got to the point: "And they made their lives bitter." And because Hillel the Elder, who would eat the Passover meat wrapped in bittern between two matzahs "on satiety," at the end of the meal. That is why that family instituted eating the "korach" at the end of the meal as an "afikomen." This family would have conducted their Seder much more logically than we do today. And yet they would not have transgressed against any mitzvah, neither from the Torah nor from the rabbis. But why do we not hear of any family that instituted such changes? Because the tradition is so strong and steadfast. And so, in all communities in Israel, the basic Passover Seder is conducted according to the same recipe.
And here is a story to prove this: There was a case where the son was in a yeshiva and studied there according to what is written in the books of halakhah.
Once, when he was at his father's house, he saw that his father was acting differently from what he had learned.
So, he said to his father: "Sorry, Dad, but that's not how it's done."
His father asked him: "How do you know I'm wrong?"
The son answered him: "Because it is written in the Mishnah Berurah."
He said: "A clear Mishnah was written for orphans. You have a father. Well, this is not a matter of halacha, but of conduct in your father's house, and as long as you are in my house, you will behave in the same way."
With great respect
Shmuel Shimshoni (Hadera)
I didn't understand the purpose of this message. Do you want to explain why the people of Israel are acting in such a stupid way? I know. Or do you want to support this policy? That's what I wrote against.
And as for the argument between the father and son, I am of course with the son (if a clear Mishnah represents the halacha. As a rule, I do not accept the Mishnah as binding halacha, but that is not the discussion here).
May the power of the esteemed Rabbi be with you.
It is imperative to spread the truth.
Working on it. 🙂
But in packaged food packages, your argument is heard,
But what about the giant sacks full of legumes in places like the Mahane Yehuda Market and so on, and if that's where it belongs, maybe it shouldn't be divided.
Decree: How do you know that this is not a decree? Only because you don't know the name of the court? And where did you find out that at a certain point the authority to decree is revoked? And even if you are right that the reason is void, until a court convenes and revokes the decree, it exists and there is a law to uphold it on its own.
Custom: "If it is not a foolish custom, then yes." For example (a true story) one woman used to clean the blood from the chicken in her house, and would fill the entire bathtub with water and clean it that way. One day her husband saw her doing this and asked her why she did not use the faucet. She replied that this was how she saw her mother do it and she did not care about the custom. In the end, it turned out that her mother used to do it following her grandmother who did it because she lived in a place and time where there were no faucets. This is a foolish custom.
I don't think, and I also don't think you think, that there is some kind of "terrible desecration of God" in this, that because of the custom of not eating legumes, all the nations of the world mock us and look at us as people living in the Middle Ages, and if we would only cease from this custom, then we would be a light to the nations and all the peoples of the earth would see that the name of God is called upon them, and they would ask to go with us, "for we have heard that God is with you," and they would say, "This great nation is only a wise and intelligent people, and what great nation has righteous and just laws and judgments?"
But it's all a matter of attitude.
I have no idea. If you think there is a concern about such bags, then don't buy them there. What does this have to do with the custom of buying legumes? Such concerns can exist in all sorts of places, but it should be discussed in each case on its own merits and not according to the boundaries of 'legume law.'
After the Talmud, no one can issue decrees because there is no great Jewish court. And if there was a Jewish court in any place that issued a decree, then let the people of that place observe it. What does this have to do with us?
I wasn't talking about Gentiles. This is a blasphemy against God within the Jewish community. We are behaving like fossilized idiots. It's not for nothing that I brought the Rebbe's broom from Gur. It's exactly the same thing.
A. These bags are related because they show that mixing is indeed involved and because of such things they decreed,
Here there is another question: why are the decrees of that time binding today or was there even a decree or just a custom, but that has already been discussed elsewhere, please separate.
In this regard, I suggested that perhaps it is because they are not dividing but rather setting up a general fence.
B. By arguing on a case-by-case basis, it is possible to invalidate any law or regulation that has ever been enacted, and therefore this is not an argument.
C. If all Ashkenazi rabbis and communities accepted this upon themselves, then it is exactly like "the people of that place" and it is related to us.
D. This is not blasphemy against God.
E. The broom is not similar because there is no taste in it, unlike legumes.
And I'll say it again: in the end it's all a matter of attitude.
I answered everything and didn't see what was new. There is not the slightest reason in all this to condemn legume. At most in certain places where there is concern that it could get worse.
I didn't understand why, I would be happy if the Rabbi could explain.