A woman who committed adultery with her husband’s permission

Yes, she knew it was forbidden and she was traditional and her husband was secular and they didn't get along and didn't have a relationship for over two years
And he told her I'm not jealous of you, you should be with others and you too. Then after a year of being with women, she started dating others until she fell in love with me and I saw that it hurt her that we had a relationship and I didn't understand why I only understood after I found out everything
Today she is getting stronger in religion because of me and there is great love between us and we want to get married but are afraid that a curse will be placed on us if it is forbidden.
And really, we are unable to separate, we have been through a lot of difficult things together and we haven't separated.
If we separate, it will be unfair to both of us. I won't want to start a home anymore and neither will she and I am capable of hurting myself because I can't live without her.
I know that some people allow marriage if the husband wasn't jealous of her, and also because in my case it was accidental. If I had known in advance, I wouldn't have gotten into it from the beginning. When I found out she was separated, my world was destroyed. I tried to commit suicide because on the one hand I want her and on the other hand I can't be with her until she gets a divorce. I waited and we kept it and didn't have sex during that period.

Hello.
I don't know anyone who allows a woman to be a prostitute when her husband is not jealous of her. Such an explanation did come up on my site here: https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%96%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%9B%D7%9E%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%94-2/
But no source was given for it and it doesn't seem to me. Even if you were mistaken, it is still forbidden (see Beit Shmuel Even HaEzer 9:1-3). If you have a written source that says this, I would love to see it.
Perhaps we should examine the Kiddushin made with the first husband, perhaps we can find a flaw in them that invalidates them (like an invalid witness – one who desecrates Shabbat, etc.). If the Kiddushin with the first husband is invalid, then it is not forbidden for you.
Regarding your description as if you cannot continue living without her. First, I would say that people can overcome love for a woman and find another partner. There is a difficult period after the separation, but they usually recover from it. If you feel that you will not be able to overcome it, I would recommend going to a psychologist to help you with this.
Finally, I will just mention in the margins of my words the mimra of Rabbi Elai (Moed Katan 16) that if he sees a man whose desire overcomes him and he cannot stand it, he should wrap himself in black and go to a far place and do whatever his heart desires. Although this is not a halakhic permission, and I certainly cannot permit you on this basis. This is a guide to minimizing damage, and most of the poskim have not ruled on his words as halakhic. But I bring the matter to your attention.
I will also note that there are no curses or dangers or the like here, but rather a halakhic prohibition.
Be strong and courageous.

Apparently it is forbidden on the side of the decree of the scripture..
After all, if a man has committed adultery and committed a crime against his fellow man, what is the husband's fault that she is now also forbidden to him. And yet, even forgiveness is forbidden. This means that there is apparently no difference.

There are some jurists who allow it if she was previously married to another man, and when she was married to another man, she was already forbidden to her husband. However, for this to happen, she must have been definitely forbidden to her husband by the other man, that is, by witnesses or with clear knowledge by a person who is faithful to him.

How can I check her marriage? And are you sure that her husband wasn't jealous of her and let her go, and even though we're good friends now, everything is still forbidden?

You can try to check if the wedding was of great value. Who were the witnesses (Shabbat-observant, relatives of each other or of the groom or bride). In the circumstances you described, unfortunately, I do not see a halachic possibility to permit it.

How can I find out? If the witnesses are kosher or not, and what happens if we get married? This is a real prohibition and we will be harmed because of it?

You need to check who the witnesses were and find out if they are relatives or not religious. I assume the woman knows who they are. They also signed the ketubah and I think they are also registered with the rabbinate.
I don't know what it means to have bad luck. It's a crime. I'm not one of those who believe in curses and bad luck, etc.

I answered, "Who was the rabbi and the witnesses?" My question is, "If such a prohibition is made, then there will be no harm to us together, that's all."

I don't know how to answer such questions. They have nothing to do with halakha. I personally don't tend to believe in spells and curses. What's bad is the fact that it's a crime (and maybe the punishment given after 120 for the crime. I don't understand that)

Mikhi,

Did you hint to him that he could, in the name of an extra-halakhic principle, bypass the halacha, and perhaps it would be better for him to do so (provided that he “wraps himself in black” and so on)?

Although you qualified the act by saying that it was only “damage minimization”, I suspect that you meant something deeper.

Is there a way?

Reminds me of the case of Rabbi David Eisenstein who found “permissions” to exchange wives with his friends, and claimed that there was no prohibition because there was no elilat maal. He presented the same arguments to the court. It should be noted that this was a case of lemandan and elilu.
This story sounds a bit strange.
https://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=3106821&forum_id=771

From what I read there, this is nonsense. Of course, there is a prohibition against a man's wife in this. At most, one can discuss the prohibition against a prostitute who is dependent on her husband's negligence, and that is what I wrote here. Rabbi Wesner's ruling is not related to the matter at all, since the discussion is about the woman's negligence, and a Jewish woman is not prohibited from a husband and therefore not from a prostitute when she has committed a crime by mistake or rape.

But is there no mistake or rape of the woman in this case? After all, the women's husbands deceived them that there was no prohibition, and not only that, but they also claimed that she was committing a crime if she did not consent. The women were also subject to pressure from powerful figures in Haredi society.
It is not certain that there was no mistake or at least rape of the women here.
It reminds me a bit of the case of “a prostitute to give birth to the Messiah”.
https://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?cat_id=24&topic_id=1027245&forum_id=1364

Sure. That's what I wrote (although it still needs to be discussed according to Maharik). But the one in question was a prostitute.

Doron,
You understand that even if the answer is yes, he can't say it…

By the way, there are other cases in history where poskim hinted to people to bypass the halacha. I read about Hari” who would recommend fatal women (such as those whose 3 husbands died one after the other) to find a fourth man to sanctify them and he would arrange a wedding for the couple, even though according to the Gemara, such a woman is prohibited from getting married (because of the danger).

Doron Y.D., any answer can be given. I oppose esotericism. My clear halachic answer is that it is forbidden. Although there is Rabbi Elai's recommendation for someone who sees that his instinct is overcoming him to minimize damage. I brought this to his attention so that he would be aware of it. But one must understand that this is not a halachic ruling, but that if his decision is to violate a prohibition, it is better to minimize it, but it is clear that if he does so, he violates a prohibition. Therefore, my words should not be seen as an implicit halachic permission. If I thought there was a permission, I would say so.

14,
It is probably clear to me that a rabbi - or in fact any person who believes in the validity of the halakha - cannot permit something that contradicts it. I also believe that Mikhi is telling the truth to the best of his understanding.
In any case, the moment someone introduces the consideration of “minimizing damage” there is reason to suspect even the most honest and decent person that perhaps, absent-mindedly, he revealed a real tension/contradiction and then - again, in good faith - tried to cover it up.

It is also not clear to me how Rabbi Elai's recommendation can be applied in the context of this case. But perhaps it is possible…

It is always possible to suspect, but here I do not see what the basis for suspicion is. Especially since I, as a policy, write everything and oppose any concealment.
By the way, I just saw:
https://www.facebook.com/100001840621677/posts/2976942232377102/
A word in stone

I also agree with every word written in the link.

So if her husband suggested it and wasn't jealous of her
And she also really regretted her actions and cried about it for days and nights
And I didn't know about it at all and it was accidental and I knew we kept everything until the divorce
So why shouldn't they allow us and let us suffer in life
Also thanks to this relationship she became stronger in religion, observant of Shabbat, ready to cover her head, modest, things she didn't do in the past and that it would stop if she separated because she does it for me
If you have the opportunity to delve deeper into the subject, I would be happy even with a rabbinical judge

Unfortunately, I don't see a way out right now.
I'll search and consult further and if I find one, I'll let you know.
Good news,

Okay, thank you very much. In any case, update next week. I would appreciate your answer. Right now, we can get married and everything will be fine except for the prohibition itself, and there will be no curse in our lives, right?

I didn't say that it's possible to get married. It's impossible because there's a Torah prohibition against it.
I also didn't say that there wouldn't be a curse. I said that I personally don't believe in curses and in my eyes, they're baseless inventions. But that's belief, not knowledge. Just as I don't know if there will be, I don't know that there won't be.
I also added that it's accepted in tradition that punishment (in heaven) for such an offense is given, although here too I can't say that I have knowledge of it. But at least this is a more established tradition than the matter of curses.
I'm sorry. Good luck and all the best,

Okay, thank you very much. You'll look into this in depth next week and update me with good news. Shabbat Shalom. And thank you for the time you've given me. I really appreciate it.

Sorry for the intimate questions. When you did it, was it with a condom? I mean all the times without exception.

Sometimes with, sometimes without

http://halacha.co/The-wife-of-a-man-who-unfaithfully-married-her-husband-to-the-second-husband/#_ftn3

Hello.
Sorry for the delay (Tisha B'Av).
I looked and there is no opinion here that is lenient. The answer deals with the situation where there was a first-time smoker and the second one was accidental, and there is also disagreement about this. That is why I asked you in the past whether there was a first-time smoker, and you answered no.
In the meantime, unfortunately, I have not found an option to permit.

Good morning, thank you for the answer, Your Honor, if you have the opportunity to consult with a rabbinical judge or other rabbinical officials, I would be happy to keep you informed. Good morning.

I sent a question to some of my friends, but so far I haven't received any viable suggestions (the condom thing was a suggestion from one of them). If anything happens, I'll update.

Absolutely fine, thank you very much. Keep me updated. In any case, we really want to get married and have children, and thanks to me, she will keep Shabbat, be modest, pure, everything.

Hello Rabbi, how are you? I found more things that I would like you to look at.

https://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/38390

http://halacha.co/נישושין-לבועל/

The first link says that in the absence of the husband's knowledge, the husband is not prohibited from marrying
What do you mean by absence of knowledge until the divorce or even after?

If the husband was not jealous of his wife, she is permitted, this is only true when she hid with another and doubted her sin,
This is what is written in the Rambam, so we can not admit it and then it is only doubted and then yes it is permitted and there is no prohibition

The husband's lack of knowledge is not agreed upon by almost any poskim. The Rash”sh says this as an explanation in the opinion of Thos’ that was rejected by all poskim (and even when they already say this, it is said in order to permit a marriage that has already taken place and not to permit the marriage to begin with). Beyond that, I understand that in your case he already knew when it happened, because he even gave her permission for it. I assume that the husband also believes her, and therefore even if he says in his mouth that he does not believe, it is just a formal statement.
Unfortunately, I see no basis for permission here.

Regarding your first question, I inquired with her in depth again and the answer is that at the time of the incident she was secular, so she was not observant and religious, but she did know that relationships were forbidden and all of this until the get, but she did not know the severity of it, which means that it was also accidental for her.
Even her husband told her to go freely with whoever she wanted, he offered her an open marriage, swapping partners, etc.

I still don't see a possibility of permitting. The Maharikh cited in Rama wrote that the law is that if a woman commits adultery inadvertently, she is not forbidden from her husband, only if she was mistaken in thinking that the adulterer was her husband, but if she knew this and only thought that it was permissible, she is still forbidden. Beyond that, here she was not really mistaken, but at most did not know the severity of the prohibition.
I'm sorry.

If she didn't know the prohibition and was really far from religion then it's a kind of mistake
Some rabbi in the line of halakha heard the whole story and said that it is permissible because her husband released her and because she didn't really know the prohibition and really regretted her actions
Did you get to consult with a few more rabbis or a rabbi who is in a rabbinical court?
And I would like to know what you suggest I do because I really love her and intend to marry her, I'm just afraid that we will have a life without luck like that. Some rabbi told me and scared me, saying you will live without luck and it's a shame for me and our children, that's what he told me and I cried a lot. I can't do without her.

Hello.
I wrote you my opinion. Even if it is in the realm of a mistake (very doubtful), it is not a mistake that permits it. I also asked others and did not hear anything that could be useful here. If there is a rabbi who told you that it is permitted and if you trust him – for health. I am no holier than anyone else, but this is my opinion. I cannot tell you anything that is not in my opinion.
I explained to you the options that are open to you in my opinion, and also my opinion on matters of luck, etc. Unfortunately, I have nothing more to add to that.

What are the options? And what about luck? What do you think? I would love to know again. I'm already confused and going crazy.

I told you that in my opinion there is no halakhic permission. I reminded you of Rabbi Ilai's mimra regarding minimizing damage. And I told you what I think about bad luck in marriage and the like. Look again at the previous emails.

And what is meant by damage minimization, I also don't understand.

Read one of the previous emails I sent. I brought up the Mimra there that if a person sees that his instincts are overcoming him, he should go to a faraway place and wear black and do whatever his heart desires. I said that this is not a halakhic permission but a suggestion for minimizing damage when one comes to the conclusion that sin is inevitable.

Give me a practical example because I don't understand the mimra. What is meant by staying away and wearing black? This is not an evil inclination. This is true love. We have been through a lot together. If she hadn't been my match, we would have separated a long time ago with everything we have been through.

If a person wants to commit some offense and feels that he cannot bear it and is about to commit it, Chazal advises him to go to a faraway place and wear black and only then do what his heart desires. It is important to understand that this is not a permit to commit an offense, but rather a suggestion to minimize damage: if by any means you are going to commit the offense, at least try not to blaspheme (do it where people do not know you).

You didn't answer my last question (regarding the nature of the first marriage).

I answered you, the rabbi of Ramat Gan consecrated them
What other questions do you want to know? I will answer them, dear rabbi.

I asked you in the last email whether the first marriage was arranged in such a way that the couple allowed each other to have open relationships with others as soon as they got married, or whether he only "released" her when they decided to divorce.

He only released her when they decided to separate about 3 years ago and not during their wedding
Because he told her either an open marriage or a divorce because he couldn't be with just her and she didn't agree to an open marriage in any way
He's really not religious at all, completely secular, he even took her to a swingers party so that maybe she would agree to have sex with him and he with someone else and she left but only he had sex and she didn't
She's not that kind of girl

I understand.

Regarding the blasphemy, people don't know that we had a relationship and things like that and she was separated. And what about the answers I gave you, does that help anything?

Unfortunately not.

If there's anything else that can help, tell me and I'll figure it all out. I really want us to get married and everything and establish a kosher and loyal home in Israel.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything else at the moment. If I do, I'll update.

Dear Mr. B’ Leave you nonsense in the juice. The Torah was not given by God, so there is no need to obey its instructions. Live your life according to your own judgment and stop believing in the vanities of that world.

I read the whole discussion and would love to know what you did? Did you end up getting married? Did you get a permit? And if so, are you living a happy life? Thanks!