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Does the Torah lie?

שו”תDoes the Torah lie?
asked 7 years ago

In Leviticus 25 it is written, “If you walk in my statutes and keep my commandments and do them, I will give you rain in its season, and the land will yield its produce, and the trees of the field will yield their fruit, and the threshing floor will yield its harvest, and the harvest will yield its seed, and you will eat your bread to the full, and you will dwell in your land in safety. I will give peace to the land, and you will lie down, and no one will make you afraid. I will make evil animals cease from the land, and the sword will not pass through your land. You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall before you by the sword . Five hundred of you will pursue, and a hundred of you will pursue ten thousand, and your enemies will fall before you by the sword . I will turn to you and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. You will eat the old and the new, and you will bring forth the new. 11 And I will set my tabernacle among you, and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. 13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, that ye should be their bondmen: and I will break your yoke upon you, and will lead you astray.

14 But if you do not listen to me and do all these commandments , 15 and if you abhor my laws, and if your soul abhors my judgments, so that you do not do all my commandments, so that you break my covenant, 16 I will also do this to you, and I will appoint over you terror, consumption, and fever, that consume the eyes and make the soul faint; and you shall sow your seed in vain, and your enemies shall eat it. 17 And I will set my face against you, and I will strike you before your enemies; and your haters shall come down upon you, and you shall be scattered, and none shall pursue you . 18 And if in spite of all this you will not listen to me, I will increase to afflict you, seven times for your sins . 19 And I will break the pride of your strength, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your land as bronze, and I will make your strength vain; your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the earth shall not yield their fruit. And if you will go with my people, and will not be willing to listen to me, I will bring upon you seven plagues according to your sins. And I will send the beasts of the field among you, which shall devour you, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number , and you shall be ashamed of your ways. And if by these things ye will not repent of me, and ye will go with my people, then I will also go with you, and I will strike you seven times for your sins. And I will bring upon you a sword of vengeance, the vengeance of the covenant, and ye shall be gathered together into your cities, and I will send a word among you, and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy . And I will break your loaves of bread, and ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall return your bread by weight, and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.”
Etc. Etc. In contrast to these clear things, I reviewed the entire chapter 22, and the entire Torah, and did not find the verse “But all this is valid only for the next 1,500 years, after which I will leave you and you will manage on your own.” Do you think that God, the Holy One, lied in the parsha of My Laws? That His promise has expired? Has the covenant and the agreement expired? (It is tempting to ask if a new covenant did not come in place of the old, if only to defy).


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 7 years ago
I would be happy if you could search the entire Torah and find me a verse that teaches that prophecy will end at some point and that miracles will end. When you find these verses, if you still have the patience, please find me a verse that commands us to charge money instead of giving an eye for an eye. And so on. If you only accept explicit verses and not interpretive considerations (especially in light of observing reality), you won’t get far. Even the Karaites don’t really think that way.

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אורן replied 7 years ago

I thought of a few excuses regarding this question:

There is a passage that speaks of a possible introduction of the secret of the Blessed One:
And the Lord said to Moses, Behold, your days draw near to death. Call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, and I will command you. And Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tent of meeting. 15 And the Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud; and the pillar of cloud stood at the door of the tent. 16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou liest with thy fathers; and this people hath risen up, and gone a whoring after the gods of the strange gods of the land, which are among them; and they have forsaken me, and broken my covenant which I had made with them. 17 And my anger was kindled against them that day, and I forsook them, and hid my face from them, and they were devoured, and they found many evils and miseries; And he said, In that day, is it not because my God is not among me that these evils come upon me? 18 And I hid my face in that day from all the evil which he had done: for he turned unto other gods. 19 Now therefore write ye this song, and teach it the children of Israel, and put it in their mouths: That this song may be unto me for a witness unto the children of Israel: 20 When we shall come into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey, and eateth and is full, and fatness; And he shall turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me to anger, and break my covenant. 21 And it shall come to pass, when I have brought upon him many evils and troubles, that this song shall be a witness before him for ever, that he shall not be forgotten out of the mouth of his seed: for I know his trouble, which he doth this day, before I bring him into the land which I sware.

It is possible to understand that the practice of secrecy is not only a temporary practice for the period of sin, but that from the moment Israel sinned, the practice changed permanently to the practice of secrecy. God foresaw this in advance, and therefore also wanted to write the poetry (Torah) forever so that even though there is secrecy, the covenant will still be preserved by virtue of the writing of the Torah.

Another excuse for the question:

If you pay attention, you will see that the course of the Torah in the verses you cited begins in the previous chapter, in chapter 25, verse 1, where the Torah says:
1 And the Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying: Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When you come into the land which I give you, and the land is devoted to the Lord, you shall be devoted to the Lord.

The following passages are based on this statement. The word ki is used here in the sense of “when”. That is, when you come into the land. The statement is relevant to the time when all Israel dwells in their land (see Rambam”s at the end).
As evidence, we can see that many of the commandments commanded in the verses in this section are commandments that depend on the land (Shmitta, Jubilee, redemption of the land). In our day it is known that these commandments are not followed from the Torah (because not all Israel dwells in their land). Similarly, the practice that God promised in these verses is not practiced today, at least until these commandments are again practiced from the Torah. See also what the Rambam says regarding the conditions of residence in the land:

10:10 [8] When the tribe of Reuben and the tribe of Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh were exiled, the jubilees were abolished, as it is said, “And you shall proclaim freedom in the land to all its inhabitants” (Leviticus 25:10), while all its inhabitants were living on it: and this is that tribe should not be mixed with tribe, but all of them lived as prescribed.

11:11 While the jubilee is practiced in the land, it is practiced outside the land: as it is said, “It is a jubilee” (Leviticus 25:10; Leviticus 25:11; Leviticus 25:12) in every place, whether in front of the house or not in front of the house. [9] And during the Jubilee, the law of a Hebrew slave is applied, and the law of houses in walled cities, and the law of a field of confiscation, and the law of a field of a manor, and those who receive a resident alien; and a seventh is applied in the land, and the dropping of money in every place–from the Torah.

12,13 And during the Jubilee, no Hebrew slave is applied, nor are the houses in walled cities, nor are the fields of confiscation, nor are the fields of confiscation, and those who receive a resident alien; and a seventh is applied in the land, and the dropping of money in every place–from the Torah.

12,14 And during the Jubilee, no Hebrew slave is applied, nor are the houses in walled cities, nor are the fields of confiscation, and those who receive a resident alien; and a seventh is applied in their words, and likewise the dropping of money in every place from their words, as we have explained.

יהודי מאמין replied 7 years ago

Rabbi, regarding the prophets: I don't remember that God made a contract and a covenant with us in which he said he would send us prophets. I don't see any room for comparison. Regarding miracles, I actually believe that there are miracles every day. As far as I'm concerned, the entire Torah simply loses its meaning the moment you take reward and punishment from it. It was written as a contract: Do this and that, and I will reward you this and that. Therefore, you need a very, very strong reason to explain why you think this agreement has expired (because it's a bit like saying, as far as I'm concerned, that Judaism has expired)

Oren, your response is actually more reasonable. I'll have to delve deeper into the matter. Thank you

מיכי Staff replied 7 years ago

The contract was signed in the blank (before we saw it): We will do it and we will hear it. Its content was an obligation to keep the Torah, and there was no promise of reward in return. The promises were given to us in the Torah, and therefore we saw them only after we “signed.” Therefore, there is no obligation here, but a description of policy. But policy can change. I gave you some examples (out of hundreds and thousands of others, of course) of verses that say things and we interpret them contrary to the plain text without having a verse to support it. Therefore, the claim that there is no verse that tells us about the change in policy is irrelevant.

By the way, some of the examples do talk about promises: a blessing in the seventh year, for example. Ten tithes – so that you may become rich (please test me on this). Do you think all of these are fulfilled?

You talked about thinking that there are miracles. Even visible miracles? In the past, there were also visible ones. Is there a verse that explains that visible miracles will end? But when? Why did you call me that, it is a fact. And the same is true of the subject of Didan.

Do you really see a clear correlation of rain versus good deeds as promised in the verses? I would love to see the data you have. This could be a real sensation.
And speaking of promises, what about: If you walk in my statutes, or As an eagle stirs up its nest, etc. Were the Egyptians murdered in the Holocaust and throughout the generations or maybe Jews specifically?
If you claim that the promises are fulfilled, I don't think you can provide facts to support this. At most, you will have some lame excuses.

גלעד replied 7 years ago

Rabbi, I remember that I said that tithes are for you to get rich, some say that this refers to the second tithe. (Chomast).
Does the Rabbi remember anything about this?

By the way, I don't understand the message's questioner, and I can only quote Moshe Rat's words in Shabbaton in his commentary
http://www.sofash.co.il/%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%9F.html
(p. 34)
Do not ignore the curses
The curses in the parashah "Come," like those in the parashah "Bechukoti," are usually read in a low voice and quickly. It is not clear
what the reason is for this. Perhaps this is to express our fear of
the curses, to the point that we do not dare to express them out loud. Perhaps
they simply want to “spare” the public the unpleasantness of hearing
descriptions of horror. There are various customs according to which the rabbi or another scholar is brought to the Torah to recite the curses,
who is not afraid that he will direct his recitation against his personal enemies.
I do not intend to oppose the custom of reciting them in a whisper. However, on a
principle level, it may be appropriate to recite the curses
out loud. After all, what is the purpose of the curses? To instill awe and fear in our hearts, so that we understand the serious consequences that our sins may have, God forbid. If we
recite them in a whisper, we are
like a patient who is not interested in listening to the doctor's warnings
about the serious damage that will be caused to him if he continues to neglect his health.

“Oh, why does this doctor resort to the approach of intimidation?”, the patient indignantly
says. “Why can't he present a medicine that embraces and includes
that accepts me as I am, and doesn't demand that I change?”.
It's really unpleasant to hear frightening descriptions, but ignoring
them will not prevent them from coming true in reality, but on the contrary – precisely
paying attention to them, and the shock they arouse in a person, are what can
save him.
The bloody history of our people teaches us that ’ indeed
meant these warnings with the utmost seriousness. These are not parables or
exaggerations, but descriptions that came true time and time again throughout
Israel's history. And if anyone has ever imagined that God has changed
over the millennia, that in the modern era he is no longer so “strict”
and ”tough” But all is love and inclusion and tolerance – The Holocaust came
and taught us otherwise. “For I the Lord have not changed and you, the children of Israel, have not changed”. The Lord has not changed, the Torah has not changed, and the severe warnings are still in force.
Sometimes I wonder what we will truly answer on Judgment Day, when the Lord will ask us
why we did not learn any lesson from the previous two destructions.
Why, when we return to our land, do we defile it with Sabbath desecrations,
burglary, abominable processions, injustices between man and man, and other
sins, just like the previous times. What can we say? That we thought
that He did not mean it seriously? That this time it is okay? “And He is merciful
He will atone for sin and not corrupt

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