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Formal authority in facts

שו”תCategory: Meta HalachaFormal authority in facts
asked 9 months ago

To Rabbi Shalom
I started watching the series on dogma and I have a comment on the subject:

The rabbi’s argument is that it is (conceptually) impossible to demand that someone believe in something.
But it seems to me that you can demand that someone be brainwashed until they truly believe in something. This may not be moral, but it is possible, and I think many have actually done and are doing it to themselves.

And if, for example, the Rabbi is as certain that God does not have a body as he is that one plus one equals two, it may be better for him (even morally) to be convinced by brainwashing that God does not have a body than to think that He does have a body.

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מיכי Staff answered 9 months ago

You didn’t understand my argument. I didn’t say it’s technically impossible, but there can’t be such a demand. Are you demanding that Reuven brainwash himself into adopting a position he himself doesn’t believe in?

אלון replied 9 months ago

Let's say Reuven believes in a God who has a body.
And according to Reuven, that same God requires him to believe that he does not have a body, that is (in a metaphorical way) to take a pill that will make him believe that he does not have a body.

אלון replied 9 months ago

So the Rambam says: "The God who revealed himself to us, and in whom you and I believe, demands that everyone who believes that he has a body, take a pill that will make him believe that he does not have a body."

מיכי Staff replied 9 months ago

I suggest you spare yourself these vain chatterboxes. We are required to believe and not take hallucinogenic pills. You cannot demand that someone believe in something they do not believe in.

אלון replied 9 months ago

For me, this is not nonsense, not nonsense, not a game, but a real question that annoys me. But I probably won't be able to explain myself better than I did and we've exhausted it.

יהונתן מ replied 9 months ago

If someone believes that God wants them to believe something, then together with the reasonable assumption that God does not want the person to believe things that are not true, it follows that they already believe in that something.

אלון replied 9 months ago

Why? Maybe he doesn't want us to believe in true things that hurt us or in something else important. And once again, this is just the credible future, meaning maybe the story is like this:

1. The truth is that he doesn't have a body
2. Reuven thinks he has a body
3. But God demands that Reuven believe that he doesn't have a body (because that's the truth)
4. Reuven thinks: If God wanted to believe in something that is not true in my opinion, there must be some reason to be convinced of it, even by force (and this is his credible future).

Option A
5. He "takes a pill" (i.e. convinces himself with some kind of brainwashing)
6. In the end, he believes that he doesn't have a body
7. He keeps his commandments (and along the way he understood the whole story, but that's not the point)

Option B
5. He stands his ground
6. You can come to him with the argument, "Why don't you take a pill? You do believe that you should obey it."

יהונתן מ replied 9 months ago

I think that even after the brainwashing he knew that he believed it only because of the brainwashing and I'm not at all sure that a person can brainwash himself. Theoretically, it is possible to demand from a person (who behaves in a very illogical way in that he does not believe what he is told is the truth and instead believes that he is being asked to believe something that is not true, even if it is possible it is very unlikely in the face of the possibility that it is simply the truth) to find a way to undergo brainwashing that will make him believe something and also forget that he was brainwashed to believe it. To me, this seems like empty talk.

אלון replied 9 months ago

I think that not only is it plausible, but that many people actually do it, in the world of religions and in the world of ideologues. They call it “working on themselves” or “forcing their instincts” (i.e. using these or other legitimate terms to describe self-brainwashing).

יהונתן מ replied 9 months ago

It seems to me that they already believe it is true and just want to live it. Like someone who believes that prayers help and in practice is not intentional in praying, who tries not only to understand that prayers help but also to feel it. And even if there are people who make a deliberate effort to believe in a lie, they are strange. Try to think of a belief that you are sure is true that a prophet tells you is false. What will you do? You will either believe him or you will not believe him, but I do not think that you will look for a method to undergo brainwashing that will also make you forget that you believe only because of the brainwashing in order to believe the prophet. This is a very strange demand on the part of God that I do not think is even technically possible. If I have three options, either to believe or not to believe or to undergo brainwashing, I will choose one of the first two options.

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