Legumes‎

Dear Rabbi Mikhi!

I enjoyed your words.

I will get to the point:

1. So, are you willing to admit that the central claim you made, that today this severity has no realistic basis, since the production processes are free of gluten concerns due to celiac disease - that this claim is incorrect?

2. Your claim about the disproportionate amount of discussion on this subject: I am embarrassed. How can I continue the discussion without falling into this sin? In the halkhot sheet that I distributed in my community ahead of Passover, the topic of legumes occupied a very small percentage of the space. Therefore, I propose, in order for us to continue the discussion, that we share the blame equally. Let's say this as a general claim - the disproportionate discussion arises every year at least equally by both sides. Therefore, this is an irrelevant claim. After all, the question of who is to blame for this inappropriate discussion, or who is causing the blasphemy, is the desired assumption – whoever is revealed to be wrong at the end of the discussion, will be revealed to be the cause of the blasphemy. So for God's sake, let's leave that aside and focus on the discussion itself.

3. The claim that it is a concern and not a custom – I don't understand the depth of the claim. Where does this sharp distinction come from? The Ram”a writes that it is a custom. The Hat”s writes that it is a vow of many, which has no permission. Are you making your claim based on historical sources? Halachic? It just seems to you? If it just seems to you – then it is at most a possibility, but it is legitimate (and not stupid) for someone to think differently from you. Do you have evidence that it is a concern and not a custom?

4. Let's assume that it is indeed a concern and not a custom. Why then do you think this should be treated the same way by Sephardim and Ashkenazim? Maybe there is a real concern, it exists to this day (as I saw on the quinoa packaging), and different communities have introduced different ways to deal with it? (When I wrote a real concern, I meant to say that it has a realistic basis). The particular way in which one community or another used to deal with the problem becomes a custom that should be preserved as an ancestral custom. It is like the custom of waiting so and so many hours between meat and milk, or of distancing oneself in various ways from having many wives. The concern is fundamentally a realistic concern, even if distant, and different communities have introduced different ways to beware of this concern. Why does the way I used to beware of this concern require the Sephardim? They distanced themselves by intensively choosing legumes, while the Ashkenazim by abstaining from eating them.

5. I don't understand your claim that you need to sort it out before Passover. The grain in the package is not leavened. But if I cook it on Passover without sorting it out – then I will be violating the law of not being seen. Therefore, you should not cook it on Passover without sorting it out. In fact, according to Ashkenazi custom, it is permissible to cook on Passover, and apparently the concern was perceived as so realistically low that they were content with caution about eating, which is a much more severe prohibition than the prohibition of not being seen and not being found.

6. Regarding the difficulty of sorting out – it is really difficult. Orit sorted the quinoa three times, as it says on the package. She found oats the second time too! It took a lot of time and concentration. She also testified that if the children were around her, she would not have been able to find them. The tradition of not eating is very understandable to me, at least as an option, certainly not stupid.

7. I still don't understand – Did you check what is written on the rice packaging? Is there a concern for gluten or not?

8. I still don't understand – Did you sit and choose a package of rice three times, before writing what you wrote?

Happy Holidays and Shabbat Shalom!

To my friend Oz Harar R.A. Shalit. May you be blessed in me, Israel, before whom you purify and who purifies you (that's what friends are for).
To the substance of your words, I say this (not in the order of your paragraphs, but I hope I addressed everyone):

A. To the substance of the concern you raised. Indeed, following your words, I went back and saw that there are packages that have a warning (some that state traces of gluten and some that state fear of grains) and some that do not. For example, rice products such as rice flour and rice noodles are sold without a warning at all and with simple kosher for Passover for legume eaters (where it is no longer possible to determine). In any case, I am willing to admit that my claim that there is no concern for the presence of grains because of celiac disease is incorrect regarding grain packaging. But this too, of course, has nothing to do with legumes. This can be true in many packages of many types, regardless of legumes in their accepted definition for Passover.
All of this is, of course, based on the factual concern about the presence of grains. To arrive at the prohibition of chametz from here, one must also discuss the laws of sufficiency and revocation before and during Passover.
B. In legume products (which cannot be selected, such as rice flour or rice noodles), and certainly in products where there is a concern about a mixture of legumes, such as cottage cheese or dairy delicacies, etc., there is no reason to prohibit it.
Now let's return to the packaging that is the only thing being discussed.
C. I choose rice once because it sounds reasonable to me both for Passover and on a regular day. I am sure that if there are grains, then there may also be cases where in the fourth selection you will find some grain and there is no end to the matter. In my experience, I did not find wheat or other suspicious grains. Of course, I may have been mistaken because of the similarities or because my packaging was clean (by chance or not), but if so, then all of Israel could be mistaken in that it is not right to order permission to eat based on choice. And even if you do, it will not be useful for someone who does not distinguish between grains.
D. The fear of leaven is only if water has come on the grains, of course. But this is the very fear that prevents leaving packages of wheat grains (or flour) at home on Pesach. If so, even with legumes, there is no sin and there is a fear that water has come on them, which is why I wrote that it should be clarified before Pesach. And indeed, some of the poskim also forbade legumes that did not come on them, and these are truly miraculous things (part of the same disproportion that I described that legumes became forbidden by the law of the Hebrews).
E. Everything you have mentioned is not a reason to forbid legumes, but rather to fear leaven. It really does not coincide with the prohibition/custom of legumes. And of course all the different distinctions between legumes that were or were not at the time of the decree/custom are irrelevant. The question is where is there a fear of leaven today and where is there not. That is all.
F. My distinction between custom and suspicion is between two categories that can be called custom by the jurists. Therefore, their language is not evidence. Even a custom that is based on suspicion is called custom by them (and as is known, such language is sometimes used because of businessmen who have come out against it), and of course there is also a custom that is a mere custom. My argument is that suspicions are customary as long as there is suspicion, and when there is none, there is none (unless they were determined by a ruling of an authorized court, in which case there are opinions that a court of great wisdom and authority should overturn them even if the reason is null. Although this must also be rejected, and so on). It should be added here that this concern arose at a time when there was no longer any authority to establish a prohibition on the matter, and therefore I do not accept the terminology "edict" nor the validity of this when the reason is null. I would like to point out that the multitude of reasons given in explaining this custom indicates that there is nothing clear here, and the various concerns indicate an apologetics that in retrospect we would not have feared if we had not had to defend a custom that has lost its sanctity (Rabbi Midan would say that he knows 22 interpretations of why the Book of Ruth is called on Shavuot but only one why the Book of Esther is called on Purim).
G. The difference between the Ashkenazi and Sephardic sects is not in the treatment of the fear of leaven, but in the custom of legumes. If there is a real fear of leaven, I do not see a sect that would allow such a thing. And if the fear is not significant but very remote, there is no reason to fear it in such proportions. As I wrote, my outcry is mainly because of the contrast between the intensity of the fear and the proportion of the concern about it. Especially according to your view that the fear is not remote at all. After all, in a random package that you checked in your house, you found leaven. So what is the point of treating it differently between the sects? Do you really think that there are rabbis who would permit the possession of wheat grains in the house. Many even forbid selling wheat grains to a gentile (of course because of the fear that they will get wet). And if you are afraid that people will not know how to distinguish (as you wrote about me), then there is no distinction between Ashkenazim and Sephardim, of course.
H. When I said that it covers the whole ”screen” I did not mean that rabbis and poskim who deal with Passover law only touch on this or mainly on this. But your people Israel deal mainly with this. Go out and see what they are checking in a store or supermarket. What do they check? Almost all the discussions and checks regarding Passover prohibitions (and I assume that a significant part of the questions you are asked) are about legumes. Beyond that, there are all the divisions that the poskim make on this issue, even though, as mentioned, this is not their main concern.
I. The source of my words is the lack of proportion in dealing with something that is at most a distant concern, and the handling of it depends on distinctions, some of which are not related to the concern, and this is the main thing that concerns the general public with regard to Passover. All of this is completely unreasonable in my opinion.

Bah Salkinen:
1. There is no prohibition on legumes, but there are cases in which there is a concern that leaven grains may be present. These are two completely different things and there is no reason for differences between the customs of the denominations in this regard (except for differences in rulings between them on halachic questions, such as rich matzah, etc.).
2. The concern is remote, and it only exists in products that are packages of grains.
3. These are packages of grains that are not actually legumes in the accepted halachic sense, but according to the reality of our day. Therefore, there is no point in discussing formal distinctions about the “legume prohibition” and what is included in it.
4. Even if there are grains, there is no reason to fear the prohibition of leaven in this, because of the laws of doubt and nullification, etc.
5. In a situation where packaging is like this, if they still decide that there is a prohibition, then it is for all of Israel and not just for Ashkenazim, at least for those like me who don't know how to tell oats from quinoa. And those who know, even if they are Ashkenazim, are allowed to do so. And if there is concern for those who don't know, then everyone should be prohibited again. There is a great need to hang the differences in custom on the law of re-shaking on Passover (which also does not coincide with the custom of legumes regarding the division into denominations).
6. In products that are not packages of grains, that is, almost all supermarket (cottage cheese or dairy delicacies with concerns about legumes, not to mention oil and legume products), there is no prohibition and there is nothing to discuss.

I mistakenly admitted about the possibility of finding a grain in the package. Do you agree with me in the above summary?

I completely agree with the rabbi's arguments to abolish the custom, what's more, they made it worse for the consequences of consuming legumes.
Companies usually write warnings like “Allergen Information: May contain wheat” for legal protection reasons and not because they are really afraid of wheat contamination. As the Demodi'in Rabbinate once wrote on a bag of peeled walnuts when singing a Passover song for legumes eaters.
By the way, the phrase legumes eaters itself sounds to me like ”vegetable eaters.