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On the cosmological view

שו”תCategory: faithOn the cosmological view
asked 1 year ago

Hello.
 
After watching your discussion with Aviv Franco, an interesting point occurred to me that perhaps you could explain Aviv’s position in a more orderly manner.
 
Following the fallacy of infinite regression in claiming that everything has a reason, you said that there is a reason only for things in our experience, and therefore the singular point that is in our experience has a reason, and if that reason is not in our experience then we have solved the problem. Aviv, on the other hand, argued that perhaps we simply do not know what the reason is. You answered him, and rightly so, that if someone gives an answer and someone else does not give an answer, but says ‘maybe we do not know’, it is more likely to listen to the one who does give an explanation.
 
Well, you can look at things differently. In my opinion, there is a presupposition in your statement, according to which the singular point is something in our experience. I think there are pretty good reasons to think that it is not – it is infinitely dense, which causes its time to pass at an ‘infinite’ speed, meaning that it cannot be spoken of in terms of ‘before’ and ‘after’. Furthermore, we cannot find a reason for it in our experience. And in general, we cannot really say that it is something in our experience because we were not there when it was. From all of this, it follows that it may not be in our experience at all. Therefore, if it is not in our experience, Aviv’s argument does indeed stand – we do not know what the reason for the singular point is, since it itself is no longer in our experience.
 
Now we are faced with two possibilities – either the singular point is something we can understand, it will be answered in our experience, or it is not. If it is in our experience, then another entity, God, is needed to explain it. If it is not in our experience – God is not needed. It turns out that, according to Occam’s razor, God can be ‘cut’ out of the equation.
 
Or, in other words, Aviv indeed claims ‘I don’t know’ how a singular point exists. But even in the position of the other side that wants to offer an explanation, there is still ‘I don’t know’ how this entity God exists. Therefore, in essence, both sides do not explain the matter, but rather escape to the limits of ‘this is already something we don’t know, not in our experience.’ Aviv is modest enough to say that he does not know the singular point, while the believing side pretends to claim that he does know it, and therefore he is required to have another entity called ‘God.’
 
In fact, the cosmo-theological view can also be interpreted in the same way. But I think it’s better to interpret it through the theory of parallel universes. But that’s for another time 🙂
 
A happy and joyful Torah Giving Holiday to all the House of Israel!


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מיכי Staff answered 1 year ago
I have answered all of these (parallel universes and the singular point) before. The point is a particular state of matter and not a different kind of entity, and matter is something that has been purified of cause (this is the cosmological argument). Furthermore, the laws of nature that govern evolution since the big bang were not created by the point but accompany its evolution to our world. And the laws require a lawgiver (this is the physico-theological argument).

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אריאל replied 1 year ago

Again. I agree that according to your statement, matter is a cause, all this only if it is a thing in our experience. I fail to understand why add another entity, which is not in our experience, and is the cause of the initial matter, and not simply say what Aviv Franco said - ‘I don't understand what happened there’. After all, that exactly means that the singular point is not in our experience. Your rejection there was that what he was saying was ‘I don't know’, while you are giving an answer, and therefore you should be listened to. In fact, that is not true. You also say ‘I don't know’ about God, since He is not in our experience. What you should have shown is why it is clearly impossible to say I don't know about the singular point, not to tell Aviv that ’I don't know’ is not an answer. Since I clearly see a situation where I simply did not understand what happened there, I see no reason to add another entity and have to say that I do not know what happened with it.
If you are brave enough to claim that you understand what happened there, and therefore you must posit another entity that you do not understand, a successful path. I simply look at the first point of the material, say to myself - ‘Wait, this does not fit with the principle of causality’, and simply leave it like that, in complete ignorance, because this point, by virtue of being one for which I cannot see a reason in our experience, becomes in my eyes one that is not in our experience, one about which I am humble enough to say ‘I do not know’. Or in the words of Maran Rabbi zt”l, ‘The essence of knowing is that we will not know’.

מיכי Staff replied 1 year ago

Everything has already been answered. It seems to me that you are just insisting, so I see no point in continuing.

אריאל replied 1 year ago

Okay
Anyway, you wrote that you've written about this before. Can you point me to where you've addressed this point so I can look at them and understand the matter better?
Thanks in advance!

מיכי Staff replied 1 year ago

It is found in the first stanza in Conversation 2-3. And in a more preliminary form in Notebooks 2-3.

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