Shortening military service for Hesder yeshiva students

This is an excellent answer for secularists. But what is the answer to the claims coming from religious people who claim that it is possible to both serve for three years and study Torah in quantity and quality?

First, on the contrary, they should be respected and do so. In reality, in the vast majority of cases, this does not happen (as is well known, the vast majority of Israelis do not really study seriously throughout their lives). But if there is a son of Aliyah who is sure that he will be able to serve in the army itself for three years and study well and thoroughly, please do so.
But even if it is a son of Aliyah, it is not clear to me why this should be done at all? Why would that son of Aliyah contribute ten years of service (three years in the army and another quality year of study), instead of contributing five years to the country, when a regular soldier contributes only three? Again, these are feelings of inferiority that I really do not understand. Why are explanations even needed, for religious or secular people? Let the secular people explain why they only serve for three years. I really do not understand.

I debated this a lot, and I understand the questioner.
I finally came to a clear conclusion:
From our side, there is a good justification for shortening service, and there is no need to feel inferior, and this is where the rabbi's explanation comes in (we can perhaps argue, but it seems you agree).
From the secular side, the explanation doesn't make sense at all, in my opinion, but here is an important point.
A person lives according to his worldview (namely, that there is a need for Torah students, and without the Hesder they will learn much less in quantity and quality), and there is no need to consider other approaches (when it comes to you).
In other words: And because the secular are blind to the value of the Torah, should I do something different from what the Jewish people really need?
When you get to the army, you will see that many times your secular friends will clean the place where you sleep while you pray Shacharit, etc.
Is it because your secular friends don't understand the value of prayer that you should give it up? Or even shorten it? Of course not.
One can understand the secularists' anger about the matter, but it should not affect your path or your confidence on your path.

Exactly. There will be many who will not understand the value of an education ministry, a kosher supervisor, a shekel, military bands, the IDF radio, or anti-aircraft missiles. Society decides what is important to it, and that is a relevant service. Within this framework, everyone does the best they can and understand. There is no reason in the world for me to behave according to someone else's values, and I also do not owe them any explanations. I will give them explanations that will describe my worldview to them, but there is no need to give them explanations that will make them conform to their own perceptions.
Incidentally, the same is true of state budgets (for culture, sports, yeshivahs, etc.).

It seems unfair to include such considerations when sharing a common burden, and that it is right that when a Chinese sage and his partner have three coins in common, another person should also buy a slice for each and a flower with the third - when his partner does not like flowers?

The case of cleaning during prayer is a necessity, but indeed if it interferes and it is more possible, it is right to make a division so that when one prays the other cleans, the first one will clean when the second one has finished speaking.
There are many things that are needed for the shared system to work - such as anti-aircraft missiles, satisfying religious needs so that everyone can serve, and even a little entertainment. Here, decision-making is necessary. This becomes everyone's need (military service on the IDF is indeed absurd).

But what does this have to do with the "goals of life"? of one of them?
When a large part (or even a majority) of society does not share the same ‘purpose of life’, it is not fair to include it in the considerations of burden sharing…

If it is something ‘in our souls’ I can understand that there is a clash between values and what will result in burden sharing, and there is room for discussion… but this is indeed a situation in which there is a certain injustice… (for example’ girls' service, if indeed religious girls' service would allow for a shortened service for others)…
But I do not agree with the conclusion, ‘what will it serve’… This is a more just division when on the other side stands a person who does not share the same purpose…

I am not a member of the Alia and I am not close to it, but I can say with certainty that even though I served three full years (+ a few years of service) from the age of eighteen until now I have learned many times more Torah in quantity and quality than most of the Hesderniks. Our values are the same, but I have an additional value: to try not to apply my values at the expense of others. If everyone served the same amount of time, the service could be shortened (you will probably argue with that…) and if you pray while your friends are cleaning your room, I think it is ugly.

Rest assured. You have no additional value. No one applies their values at the expense of others. The amount of time that the Hasderniks serve will neither increase nor decrease the number of years that someone else will serve. No one wants everyone to go to Hasder, but only an elite group (which has not happened yet). Even if the number of soldiers in the army doubles, they will not shorten the length of service because, unfortunately, the army leaders see the soldiers as “manpower” and ”a resource” And they will not be willing to give up resources that have nothing to do with the needs of the army. And no one forces your friends to clean the room while you pray. You can get up before them and go to bed before them. And maybe if they also pray, maybe they will be educated people and will not have to clean the room every day (and certainly not the toilets...).

This mentality of creating unnecessary work and then forcing other people to do it is simply unbelievable.

To Yitzhak Meni and Alon.
You simply did not get the point, and I am very surprised.
I am speaking in a situation where prayer necessarily comes during camp cleaning and the like (there are quite a few such cases in the army). Even if in the morning you can get up earlier, in the evening and in the evening this is often not possible, and while you are praying they will tell the secular to clean, or to run, and the like.
Anyone in such a situation who gives up prayer because the secular does not understand its value, then he is in no way a Ben Torah.
Now the analogy to the Seder.
The assumption is (perhaps one can argue, but it seems that the questioner agreed) that without the Seder there would be significantly fewer Torah students in quantity and quality. And there is no need for additional soldiers.
If all citizens were religious, the Seder would remain in place (because everyone would understand the importance), now that not everyone is religious, it does not make sense to do the opposite of what the people of Israel need, just because the other person is blind to this matter.

L R
You are mistaken. The rabbi's words to the questioner are well-known and simple (at least to me) and do not need too much explanation. Those who ask questions of this kind usually simply have the usual feelings of inferiority of religious people towards secular people. I also add and say that in the current routine military reality there is not even a moral claim, so to speak, more for the secular side of its own system. In your example of prayer times - if we suppose we were in constant fighting day and night (in which case we are only required to pray a short prayer) then at least, even if we assume that there was a commandment to pray a long prayer despite this, it would be possible to understand, even if not agree, with the other side. The common life in every society - there is a kind of agreement between the participants regarding the division of the burden. And each has different emphases regarding what the burden is. And each side understands that it is necessary to pay something of its own in order to participate. The secularists are willing to pay for prayer times and kosher, etc., so that religious people will be in the army. And the government is willing to pay for the maintenance of the arrangement so that religious people will live in it, etc. And that's fine. The reason we supposedly don't pay anything is because secular people have almost no special requirements beyond what even religious people consider necessary. For example, secular people find all kinds of silly rituals important, and religious people do participate in them (if they're not against Halacha). And this stems from the fact that we understand that it's important to them. But in the army, there's a lot (that's not a word) of time wasted in routine, and the fear that soldiers won't sit idle for even a minute is not related to any value that's important to the secular public. And although in principle, even if we were working on the Flying Spaghetti Monster and had to spend half an hour in the morning playing tag in its honor (and it really was important to us), then even according to the laws of sharing, they would have to free up that half hour, in practice this wouldn't happen. And there's a deep reason for this because in some hidden way, when people participate together, they respect each other even if they don't understand everything the other side does, and they have a subconscious respect for these things too. The secular public has respect for the Torah in some way. A hidden place in their consciousness, and the religious public also apparently has a certain respect for secular rituals and understands that they meet a certain need in reality. Therefore, there is a limit to these things. If the Haredim were to demand a mikveh in the morning and three hours for a daily class and an evening seder, and for everyone the training for their niche, the army would give them up. But then they would be super fighters. And they are not. And the feeling is that there is a certain connection between these two phenomena (the abundance of demands on the one hand and the insufficient output on the other).

To Alon.
I really didn't understand the connection between your response and what I commented.
All I did was comment that the analogy to your prayer was not mine.
I was talking about a situation where it necessarily comes at the expense of the other.

It's not complicated. The claim that there is a connection between what happens in a situation where this necessarily comes at the expense of the other, and the situation where it doesn't. A relationship of, say, a kernel and a shell. And I answered Manny according to his own method (shell). That is, my feeling, in his example of prayer for example, that if secular people lived under high stress of time utilization, I suppose they would somehow respect the religious requirements more in this matter and not less as seems to be the case.

Ahhh, it's a pleasure to see the smug orderlies justifying themselves with false flattery. A person sees all the flaws except his own. Wouldn't you kiss the feet of those who do full service and apologize that you can't stand it? We wouldn't be angry, but we'd still be proud and think you're an elite? Get out of the movie, spoiled hedonists.