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Were you and I meant to be?

שו”תWere you and I meant to be?
asked 3 years ago

You claim that God programmed nature so that through evolution it would reach its destination – man. From here we have free choice.
The question is, assuming that the world is not perfect today (according to you, of course), did God also want specific details to be created in man?
That is, the body of Micah and the soul of Micah, or the body and soul of Ehud, or is everything happening now without His supervision, and all kinds of “Micahs”, “Ehuds”, etc. are created along the way, but without G-d intending to create specific details?


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מיכי Staff answered 3 years ago
I have no idea. Anyway, souls probably don’t come from evolution, and I assume that what’s important to me is his soul, not his body.

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אהוד replied 3 years ago

Regarding souls, you write that you have no idea, but I actually think it is important that you express a position.

The main idea of "no man has control over the spirit" is that there is no providence at all in this world, probably for the last two thousand years. The point is that anyone who pays attention sees that when you say "I don't see providence", you are referring only to the material world, "earth". But if you believe that "in heaven" (let's say the world of souls and spirituality) God does intervene. For example, decides to attach soul X to body Y at a certain stage of life
So in short you do say that there is divine providence and intervention already in our day, at least to some extent

Now, it is clear that you cannot really know how God manages souls, but on the other hand, as long as you have no say in this matter, it is impossible to say that you believe that there is no providence at all, but only in the material world.
And since the material and spiritual worlds are ultimately connected (every believer assumes this), then it can be assumed that you do believe in a certain providence over reality.

*There is another possibility that you are a panentheist (i.e. you believe that matter and spirit are one, ultimately), and then my question is probably out of place, but from what I understand you are a monotheist, not a panentheist.

So again I would be happy if you would try to express a position.

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

I have no position and I don't need to express a position. When I say there is no divine involvement, it means there is no involvement in what happens in our world. Not in the world of souls and not in the attachment of souls to bodies. My argument is that if a force acts on a body, it will accelerate and if no force acts, it will not accelerate. That's all. What happens in the world of souls has nothing to do with this.
Regarding panentheism and monotheism, you are mixing concepts and not defining them correctly. None of this has anything to do with this at all.

אהוד replied 3 years ago

I want to explain why the matter of being a monotheist and a panentheist is indeed related.

If you were a panentheist, you wouldn't be able to claim what you claim, because according to the panentheist, our material world is just a reflection of deeper inner worlds (have you ever seen The Matrix?).
After all, a panentheist is not really a dualist. He can't claim that God operates in a spiritual world, but doesn't operate in the material world, because ultimately everything is interconnected.
If something operates in the deeper worlds, it operates here in the material world.

But as mentioned, this is just a clarification, you are a monotheist in the first place.

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

Again, I say you're mixing concepts. Panentheism is an approach that deals with the relationship between God and the world, not between matter and spirit. But that's not important to the discussion. In my opinion, it's not a well-defined approach either, and I doubt it even means anything.

אליהו פיטוסי replied 3 years ago

One might ask why the Rabbi doubts whether this approach means anything? I'm interested, because I came from Rav Kook's yeshivot, so pantheism is the basic thing for me, at least it was. This approach sounds logical, although certainly not proven. But what are the flaws in it?

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

This is not about failures. Before discussing failures, one needs to understand what exactly it means. It is supposed to be something between pantheism (everything is God), which is just a mental confusion, and the normal perception that there is a God and the world outside of Him and before Him. Pantheism tries to say something in the middle: everything is in God. What exactly does this mean? That we are His members? That He is connected to us and animates us? That He is the soul of the world (meaning that the world is an organism and God is its soul)?
I think we usually mean the latter, but does this mean that He operates everything and makes all the decisions? So what is wanted from us? And if we are independent beings, then what exactly does it mean that He is the collective soul of all of us (and of the world)?
Seems like puns with no clear meaning.
You don't need fancy words and semantic jargon to understand that God exists, created the world, and perhaps also animates it at every moment (like a circle of power, when we are the circle of command). All the rest is just mental confusion and meaningless nonsense.

אהוד replied 3 years ago

We are independent beings with free will who need to tap into the divine essence within us.
That means we have free will, and that means we are also divine, and the sum of it all is divinity.
That's all.

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

🙂 Cheers. I don't think I could have summed up better why this is meaningless nonsense. This is an excellent end to the discussion.

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