חדש באתר: מיכי-בוט. עוזר חכם על כתבי הרב מיכאל אברהם.

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asked 6 years ago

The Rabbi can please comment – https://ravtzair.blogspot.com/2019/11/blog-post_6.html?fbclid=IwAR3mgTlgyOq6GtD2mkqSdPDjr9caRrUk_E37KinpJJDAhuuX_DlnMTtJfD8&m=1


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מיכי Staff answered 6 years ago
I don’t know what I should comment on. These are empty words. The writer assumes that the laws of democracy reject everything, as if there is holiness in them. I brought the examples of Herschel Greenspan and David Frankfurter in my words. They murdered a political figure who served in a regime that was duly elected through a democratic process (the Nazis came to power through a democratic process). Not to mention that the obligation to uphold the laws also exists in a monarchical regime, not just in a democracy (halakhah speaks of “dina demalchuta,” and not specifically about the laws of democracy). So what does the writer expect if I come to the conclusion that all of us, all citizens of the country, are going to ruin under the auspices of democracy, that is, in a process in which there was no formal legal flaw? Should we go like sheep to the slaughter and give our souls on the altar of democracy? These are empty words. I have already addressed the question of whether Yigal Amir’s factual assessment was correct (i.e., whether we were really about to perish, and whether the murder would have saved us from it) in my column. But the discussion is not that, but a principled discussion of what a person should do if these are his assessments. I do not understand how the pagan consideration (which gives sanctity to the laws of democracy) that the writer raises deals with the problem I spoke about. In short, I addressed everything in my original words and I don’t know what there is in the author’s words that requires further consideration.

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חגי replied 6 years ago

Shalom Rabbi Avraham

The young rabbi does not assume that the laws of democracy morally reject everything, what he is arguing is that I as an individual or as a minority group should not use force or violence to impose my understanding on the public, even if it is a very, very urgent and important matter.
This is not a moral issue – in the technical part, almost always the action of an individual or a minority will not really change the course of social affairs. The failure of Yigal Amir, and unlike Greenspan and Perkpotter, is not “accidental” but lies in the fact that they did not obey the ”laws of democracy” which are more like a natural-behavioral law than a moral law.

פשיטא replied 6 years ago

Hagai, a collection of meaningless words. After all the talk, if you think someone is now on the verge of death, that they are about to die (!) Won't you save them even if you violate democracy?! If you save them - that's what Yigal Amir thought. If not – justify it morally! And what, democracy rejects human life?? But what, you assume that it won't help, well, then Yigal Amir assumed otherwise. So at most he was wrong. But here we are discussing moral judgment towards a person!

חגי replied 6 years ago

No – I will not save him if it is contrary to the ”laws of democracy” because after a few minutes he will be on the verge of death again, while the very attempt to save him has damaged the democratic consensus, and then the level of violence will rise and many other people will end up in death.

Why – For a person who is currently in the center of a group of hundreds of people who are lynching him, and there is currently no force around him that can stop them – There is no chance that I will be able to save the poor man from the crowd, and on the other hand my life and perhaps the lives of those around me will be in danger.

It is clear that Yigal Amir was wrong, let's try to learn from his mistake and not harm the social consensus not to use violence (derisively called “laws of democracy”)

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

Hagai, you answered me as I should, and I really don't understand what you're saying. You'll leave a person to die because of the laws of democracy? Have you gone crazy? And according to your strange and eccentric method, let's assume that the entire nation is going to die. Won't you save him because of the laws of democracy?
And what's the point of this chatter that if you save him, he'll be in danger again? Are you inventing a justification? What dangers were created after Rabin's assassination?

חגי replied 6 years ago

Sorry, Your Honor, I'm struggling to answer the question and explain, you should try to relate to the cases I gave as examples.

Yes – I probably haven't gone crazy, but I won't take violent actions that most of my people oppose in order to save a human being. Would you break into a prison with violence to save a person sentenced to death who there is public consensus that this punishment is deserved?

If all of my people are going to die and are interested in it, I will not try to prevent it by resorting to violence (beyond the technical question of whether it is even possible) but I will try to convince.

The danger created after Rabin's assassination is a lack of solidarity among the people to the point of indifference to the lives of people who identify with the right-wing-settler sector, a lack of desire to protect them or help them in times of need. When you are a Jew in a hostile area (like the Earth), it is a pikuach nefesh

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

I don't see what needs to be answered. I answered everything, and your words don't address the issue. I'm sorry.

י.ד. replied 6 years ago

It seems to me that the argument is that just as in the case of a persecutor, if his limbs can be saved, he must not be killed, so too here, since there were supposed to be democratic elections in 1996, and Rabin was going to lose, this is a persecutor who can be saved with his limbs.

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

Y”D, I assume you're joking.

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