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Ratio’s response to your trilogy

שו”תCategory: generalRatio’s response to your trilogy
asked 5 years ago

Is the trilogy such a tragedy??
How do you deal with a thin Judaism? And with proposals for changes in Halacha?
I must point out that I have not read the new books by Rabbi Dr. Michai Avraham, but I have difficulty understanding the polemics surrounding or against them.
Any debate about the tenets of faith, that is, about “what we must believe,” is circular.
why?
If a person denies the essence of faith, then the parties are clear: I believe in the resurrection of the dead, he does not believe, and the judgment is as explained in the Shulchan Aruch, etc.
If a person claims that one does not have to believe in something (and does not believe in it), then according to his theory there is no problem with his disbelief. Only according to the theory of those who believe that one must believe, there is a problem with his belief. But they admit that the problem is only with their theory. They claim that they are right, but he claims that he is right. A problem.
Then Mikhi comes along and claims that it is possible to dilute some of what is considered by the majority to be tenets of faith, and one does not have to believe in it.
Those who argue against him, since they must believe, rely on sources that they believe are forbidden to deny. But in Michi’s opinion, it is permissible to deny them. So the argument against him is circular.
In short, when arguing about the source of authority, there is no common denominator, and therefore there is no debate.
You can argue about what someone says, if you recognize them as a source of authority. If you don’t recognize them as a source of authority, there’s no way to argue. If you recognize A as a source of authority because of B, but the other person doesn’t recognize B either. Then there’s no conflict.
In my personal opinion, the question of what one must believe is a halakhic question. Because unlike questions of interpretation, outlook, and understanding of Torah ideas, which are not halakhic, one who disbelieves in the principles of faith has halakhic status (as explained in the Shulchan
Although it is possible to argue in Halacha, every veteran student is allowed to offer his opinion in Halacha. Even Rabbi Michai Avraham, as a person who has taught Torah to many for many years, can offer his opinion in Halacha.
Obviously, most rabbis will disagree with the rulings on matters of lean Judaism.
But, the goal of this thin Judaism is to allow people who are unable or unwilling to believe in ‘fat’ Judaism to remain people of faith.
So what do we care about that?
Most believers are not bothered by some statement that they don’t have to believe in something. The fact that they don’t have to doesn’t mean that it’s not true. If there is a debate between Maimonides and the Rabbis about whether someone who believes in ghosts is an Epicurus, this doesn’t mean, of course, that we should believe in ghosts, because according to the Rabbis, there is a ‘thin Judaism’ here. And so with all the other thin ones, let’s assume that we don’t ‘have to’ believe in providence at the AAA level, and those who don’t believe will not be killed. Does this mean that there is no providence or that there is no point in believing? Those who think that they don’t have to, will vouch for it.
Even Miki himself does not follow the path of Leibowitz, for whom any discussion of anything related to spirituality aroused disgust and contempt and was considered idolatry, and beyond God, a Pinochetist and settler hater, he was not willing to accept any other option.
Miki says he doesn’t believe it, because he sees no reason to believe it. He doesn’t even claim that all the ‘fat’ must not exist, he just doesn’t feel the need to believe that it must exist. So I say – good luck to him.
The same thing about changes in halacha, wants to propose, let him propose. I don’t know if he intends to rule or propose. The majority probably doesn’t agree. So what’s the point of someone proposing something and it remains a minority opinion.
Because the debate in this area, as mentioned, is circular. A debate about the source of authority. So there is no conflict.
If someone were to claim changes in halacha, and anchor it in the Mt. and Chzota, there would be something to debate.
If someone were to claim a lean Judaism, and anchor it in the Sages, there would be a mess.
But if one admits that according to accepted halachic Judaism, there is no place for any part of the trilogy, then we have no choice but to agree.
And if the halachic authorities are somehow convinced by his rulings, everyone will be satisfied. For now, that is not the direction.

Continued from the comments

What is there to discuss about his words? He does not accept tradition (he does not claim that ‘there is no tradition’ but claims that the words of the Sages and others do not have the authority of tradition), and that is the issue itself. From the perspective of most sages, tradition, the Sages, the Rishonim do have authority, and their words are also binding. This is the reason why we accept their words and not because we have proof that they are “true”. Anyone who does not want to accept their words, and does not want to accept their words that say there is an obligation – that is their problem.

Discussion is only possible with a common premise. Someone accepts the sages or the Rishonim but claims they intended otherwise. It is possible to argue with him. If he does not accept the source of authority that I believe in, how can I force him to accept it?

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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 5 years ago

Is there any question here?

הספקן replied 5 years ago

Does the Rabbi agree with the analysis of his views as presented here?
Does the Rabbi agree that there is no basis for debate?

מיכי Staff replied 5 years ago

I just skimmed. There is certainly room for debate, and I also do not agree that my views are against the sages. I do not accept their authority in the field of thought, but that does not mean that there is necessarily no compatibility.
He himself writes that ”from the point of view of most sages” the sages have tradition and authority, that is, he implicitly admits that it is not agreed upon. I belong to those who think not.

הספקן replied 5 years ago

I don't understand
He claims there is no debate because the entire dispute is about the source of authority
If you don't accept the sages in the field of thought as a source of authority
Then what is there to debate?

מישהו replied 5 years ago

See the comments https://rationalbelief.org.il/%D7%90%D7%99%D7%9A-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%92%D7%97%D7%94-%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%98%D7%91%D7%A2/

לוזר replied 5 years ago

The comment that was deleted after 5 minutes on the Ratio website in the above thread:
Here is the burial place of Rabbi Yoreh Deah
He knows how to deal with Yaron Yadan and all the other garbage and trolls on the Internet, but against Rabbi Dr. Michi, he drops like a fly.
Rabbi Dr. Michi wrote three books, each about two thousand pages thick, on the subject of changing the Halacha, which no one has done until now. Including Rabbi Yoreh Deah. And I didn't read all the references and that it is a matter of “choice” Hello, are you serious? That's what you have to say!
PS. I have read all the books of Rabbi Shlita's website team; Volumes of Yoreh Givurot Shmonim, Chapter 1 With blessings of the oath, and with the likes of Google Drive and WikiShiva, the rabbi is amazing at uprooting mountains and grinding each other, but I felt that he knew how to say "from the side of purity" and "from the side of impurity" and played with the utmost arrogance with every piece of information like playing ball. But when Rabbi Dar Mikhi comes and systematically speaks a word about our nature, suddenly the rabbi's dignity is silenced and his strength is like a woman's.

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