To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

Forgive me, Your Honor, but it is simply madness to take with such naive faith the recommendations of a health nuisance to be vaccinated
Leave for a moment ignorant and conspiracists like me – There are quite a few serious doctors and scientists who make weighty arguments against administering a vaccine whose developers also admit that long-term effects have not been tested
Usually, a vaccine test is carried out for years, here they have significantly shortened the procedures
Are we supposed to calmly accept that we have been chosen to be guinea pigs?

My honor forgives the gentleman, and even my little ego forgives. But it is madness to believe all sorts of speakers on their own behalf and that they have no responsibility for what is happening, in a place where there are bigwigs (like the FDA) and those who will take responsibility if something happens. Everyone chooses who their experts are and who the conspirators are.

Our rabbi taught us that the “great ones” do not have an automatic certificate of approval for every statement and opinion, and everything must be examined on its merits and weighed logically…
Is this statement valid only for the great Torah scholars, but when it comes to the “great ones” of medicine and government, will we become like the last of the fundamentalists, Rachel, and will we swallow their decisions (which literally concern life and death) with thirst and submission?

Why should we accept without criticism the medical guidelines that are imposed on us, even if intuitively they are contrary to common sense?

Dear Alex. We are old friends, and that is precisely why I will allow myself to comment on your lack of listening and blatant bias, which leads you to truly childish logical errors.
Where did I write not to be critical of doctors? Why do you think that the guidelines are counterintuitive? And that you are a doctor, and I didn't know? Over and over again you call for criticism, and confuse criticism with automatic negation of everything said by the establishment. I have already written to you that this is exactly the opposite of criticism.
The guidelines for vaccination concern health, not life and death (the "terrible" dangers that are expected from listening to the guidelines are unknown to anyone. At most, there are dubious claims that it has not been sufficiently tested). On the other hand, their non-existence is a matter of health, and here it is also a matter of life and death.
And finally, in a field related to expertise, it makes a lot of sense to accept the opinion of an expert, especially when I don't understand this field. There is no expertise in the instructions of Torah wisdom. There is indeed expertise in Halacha, and therefore I believe that someone who is not a T.A.H. certainly deserves to have a rabbi make him one and listen to his voice. But even in the realm of expertise, I would not blindly obey and try to check. But not myself because I understand nothing about it, and I estimate that you do not either.

Alex, in this case what you call “common sense” is actually quite crooked…
But on the contrary, examine critically, and if after a critical analysis of the full data you come to a conclusion that contradicts what the results of the trials conducted so far teach and what the FDA's top testers decided, don't get vaccinated (just stay home so as not to infect others).

Okay
So we agreed that in the field of expertise there is no place for blind obedience and there is a place for checking, while consulting or listening to experts

So why to this day have your responses to other opinions of doctors and scientists who speak differently from the medical establishment been complete rejection, not to mention disdain?

There is a respected group of scientists and doctors who are united in a group called the Common Sense Model

They completely disagree with the prevailing conception

Is it appropriate to at least address their position in a substantive way?
Can the fact that the dear Mr. Feiglin of the website supports their position – help?

To this day, unfortunately, I have only seen complete rejection without any reference to the substance of things

Response to the heart

On the same weight, I recommend that you critically examine the true data regarding the “epidemic” Corona (a little tip – don't rely only on television and sites like Winnet)

If you still maintain your position that we are in the midst of a terrible epidemic – you are welcome to lock yourself in your house (just don't force your anxiety on us)

Alex, I went ahead and checked carefully, including reading articles (not in Vint, of course. In that you are right that Vint is an inferior and poor source), and I also discussed the subject with an expert, one of the leaders of research in the field. And I have news for you: we are in the midst of a global pandemic.
I see that you are a conspiracy enthusiast (maybe you even believe that Shimon Peres is friends with Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein and all three of them assassinated John Kennedy), and I have no business with conspiracy enthusiasts.

Dear Lev

Since you decided to move to the level of responses to the writer's body instead of the substance of the matter – I have nothing more to discuss with you
This tactic is used mainly by those who know that their argument is weak – and therefore your escape is certainly understandable (although condemnable)
As for the substance of the matter – an exhaustive examination like you did (you spoke to one expert…. Wow) is indeed conclusive proof of the existence of the epidemic…
Your words about my belief in conspiracies are not worthy of a response but teach a lot about your superficial and populist way of thinking
That ends the discussion with you as far as I'm concerned

Health and Happy Hanukkah

I'm not sure how you concluded from my words that I was relying on one expert (obviously not).
But never mind. You're probably right and this isn't a pandemic, but rather fictitious propaganda by aliens who took over the global media to promote the international pedophilia network headed by Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates, and unfortunately Donald Trump, who tried to stand up to the outbreak, failed (there's nothing he can do. After Osama bin Laden shaved and changed his name to Obama, he managed to bring about fraud in the voting machines).
And if that's the case, there's no point in discussing it.
Happy Hanukkah to you too.

Alex, you are welcome to go to a hospital and see people who are hospitalized because of Corona and all the patients. After that, you will deny Corona.
The vaccine has been tested on forty thousand people and is currently being injected all over the world, so by the time it reaches you, we will probably already know whether it is safe or not.

Alex, I apologize for the previous, disrespectful response. What can I do, in general I have a tendency to disparage global conspiracy theories, especially in areas where I have a fairly good understanding.
But there is no benefit in such responses and I have no interest in insulting.
You want to believe in an absurd global conspiracy that will benefit your health (and let's just hope it doesn't harm the health of others).
The bottom line is that there is no room for a discussion that is not based on claims and findings.

On the 1st of Tevet 5771

Here I say a few thoughts on the issue of vaccination, as homework for consulting an expert.

A. Ostensibly, the risk of vaccination is that in vaccination, a person is given a weakened dose of the virus, and there is some reason to fear that the person who is susceptible will become infected and fall ill precisely because of the vaccine. However, in our situation, there is already a great fear of contracting the virus even without the vaccine, and what have we gained by not getting vaccinated?

B. What perhaps there is reason to suggest is that before taking the vaccine, the person should be tested to see if they have antibodies, and if their body has already developed antibodies, there is no point in getting vaccinated again unnecessarily. But if the person has not developed antibodies, it is better for them to get vaccinated.

This seems to be the case, and in fact it is best for everyone to consult with a specialist who is familiar with their medical history.

Best regards, Yaron Fishel Ordner

From what I understand, there are different technologies when it comes to vaccination. Are you sure that the coronavirus vaccine is also with a weakened virus?

Yishai, you are right about the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine being synthetic without a virus.
Of course, this does not mean that a priori there is no risk.
The body may also develop an unwanted reaction to foreign substances that are not viruses, which is why safety tests on tens of thousands of people were necessary.

I understand.
I meant that the risk of the virus resurfacing is non-existent.

Lishi
I'm having a hard time understanding how you concluded that I'm a “corona denier”..
Every year there are masses of people hospitalized from winter viruses – there's nothing unusual this year

Good luck with the vaccine trial – If the government ordered it, we do it without hesitation

And a question for those who understand:

I just saw an article on Channel 7, which said that the effectiveness of the ‘Moderna’ vaccine is 94.1%, and it prevents infection by 66% – So I don't understand: 66% or 94.1%?

Best regards, Yaron Fish”l Ordner

Alex, every year over a million and a half people die from one virus?

Yishai
I'm really tired of repeating myself like a parrot, but I'll make one last effort for you:

1. Where did you get the idea that a million and a half died? Do you know them personally or did they say it on the news?

2. In your opinion, what do you mean, died from the virus? Do you mean that the virus is the cause of death or that they died for another reason and were previously detected as carriers of the virus? (Hint: check the Ministry of Health's policy in its reports)

3. Are you sure that the existing tests are reliable? Go out and do some research into why the PCR test was invented and what people are saying today about the reliability of the tests

I gave you food for thought and research in a nutshell – I'm done with the thread

1. You're right. I really didn't go through and test a million and a half people to see if they died or not.
2. What is the policy of the whole world?
3. I expect you to tell me why the tests are not reliable.

To Yaron's question, the 94% rate is measured by (lack of) the appearance of a significant symptomatic illness. This does not represent the rate of protection from infection with the virus (not that I know where Channel 7 got the data they presented. You should check the source itself and not speculate on it).