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Question about faith

שו”תCategory: faithQuestion about faith
asked 3 years ago

Peace and blessings,
I am at a crossroads and there is a question that has been bothering me for a long time.

In mathematical theory, there is a system of axioms and rules of inference. Although even the various mathematical theories have not completely defined everything formally from the ground up, there have been successes in doing so in certain areas, and things have already been proven to be consistent.

I would expect a system of case law that is supposedly based on God’s teachings to be consistent. It is clear to me that in practice it is not possible to prove that the entire system is consistent, but at the very least I would expect a specific subsystem or branch to be consistent and well-defined (for that matter, the law of money).

I would be really happy if it were possible to define even a small fraction mathematically so that it could be consistent.

Unfortunately, I have not yet come across any book that claims to do so. And unfortunately, I think the entire system of jurisprudence is inconsistent, given the many disagreements and differing opinions. And accordingly, I doubt that our Torah was given by God, because I would expect a Torah given by God to be consistent.

Do you know of a book that deals with the subject? An attempt to define part of the judicial system in a consistent manner? Or alternatively, is this even possible? And if not, why not?


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מיכי Staff answered 3 years ago
You are assuming here that the law has a structure that is analogous to an axiomatic system and hence that in principle it should be possible to prove its consistency. This is of course a baseless assumption. So far as I know, no one has proven the consistency of any legal system (the legend says that Kurt, growing up, when he took the exam to receive US citizenship, proved the inconsistency of the American Constitution. I assume that there was no proof of mathematical consistency there either). One can of course try to find contradictions, but I do not see how in principle it is possible to prove the consistency of such a system. But it’s not just in the legal field. There are many areas of life (actually all areas except mathematics) in which consistency cannot be proven, either because there is no consistency (in the mathematical sense), or because you cannot complicate them in a way that allows for proof. This is not a disadvantage in these areas but a result of their nature. For example, every law needs interpretation, since it is not a matter of mathematical rules. Law is full of controversies (the existence of which does not mean anything to its detriment, contrary to your strange assumption, and this certainly does not mean that it is inconsistent or was not given by God, but only that it is difficult to prove consistency. At most, only each system in itself is supposed to be consistent). So how can consistency be proven in a system of rules that do not say anything unambiguous. Consider, for example, the 313 commandments. How would you like to prove consistency between them? On the surface, they do not deal with the same issues at all, and therefore do not ‘talk’ to each other. Why do fertility and reproduction in any way relate to the prohibition of eating pork? Do they have any common conclusions in the way that the axioms of number theory or geometry do? It is trivially consistent. Alternatively, here I will prove to you the consistency of a subsystem of the halakha (you said that you are satisfied with a subsystem). The commandment of procreation and reproduction deals with obligations related to the mating of two people and their products (personal status in the Stone of Ezra). The prohibition of eating pork deals only with pork and is not related in any way to the Stone of Ezra (except to the Law). Therefore, a situation will not arise in which these two commandments would have anything to say. Therefore, there can be no contradiction between them. Mishal. And now, for fun, I will explain the proof. Let’s assume that there are two people in the world. A man marries Eve on the condition that she eat pork. This is a halakhically valid condition. But the halakhah forbids her from eating pork. At the same time, the halakhah requires him to marry her as a mitzvah instrument for fertility and reproduction. We have proven an inconsistency. Mishal. But we have not proven an inconsistency here. We have proven that it is possible for a situation in which it is not possible to observe all the halakhah together. This is a conflict, not a contradiction, and therefore has nothing to do with consistency. Just as the saying “Do not do what is forbidden” has nothing to do with consistency. And another explanation: There is a mitzvah to eat matzah on Passover night. Let’s say there is no longer any grain from the old one. He must prepare it from new grain, but this is forbidden before the day of the Passover. Then he cannot fulfill the mitzvah of matzah. Now I will comment on these two contradictions: Have we proven a contradiction? Absolutely not. We have proven that there are situations in which a conflict arises and a halakhic solution must be found for it (regarding the second case: do something that is repugnant, do not do it). When the halakhic solution is introduced, it will eliminate the contradiction and eliminate the proof of the system’s contradiction. So is the system consistent, because it includes this solution, or are you discussing it without it? Goel’s theorem was based on some properties of the axiomatic system he discussed (equivalence to number theory). There is no reason to think that this holds in halacha. On the one hand, it could mean that halacha can be consistent and perhaps even be provable (because Goel’s theorem does not apply to it), but somehow it is not structured in a formal way so that this can be shown. There is a feeling that if this is the nature of the halakha, then it is not a serious system. In my opinion, the situation is the opposite: if it could be consolidated and proven to be consistent, it would not be serious. This also does not mean in any way that it was not given by God. There are different interpretations of what was given by Him. Contrary to your naive assumption and expectation, the halakha was created by humans and not by God. The basis on which it was built was what we received from Him. But that does not mean that it is not binding. The authenticity of the halakha is not a condition for its validity. In short, in forgiveness this is a really childish argument. A kind of youthful enthusiasm for a new field that is revealed to you (mathematics and logic). I would take a short breath before drawing rash conclusions from this enthusiasm. If this is the main problem that makes you hesitate about faith and halakha, we are in an excellent situation.

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מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

And another note. Even if it were possible to build a computer program that would rule on a law, that would say nothing about its validity and consistency. Certainly if it were machine learning and not a classical program, since then the program would imitate human judgment, and would probably also make mistakes from time to time. But even humans make mistakes from time to time.
In principle, it is possible to build a computer program that would treat a person psychologically. This is not very far from a realistic application. This is despite the fact that psychology not only does not pass consistency tests, but it is not a science and is not systematic at all.

ע' replied 3 years ago

"In short, this is a really childish argument. A kind of youthful enthusiasm for a new field that is revealed to you (mathematics and logic). I would take a short breath before drawing rash conclusions from this enthusiasm. If this is the main problem that makes you hesitate about faith and halakha, we are in an excellent situation."

This question arose in my youth, but I have not yet received a satisfactory answer. For that matter, I am close to completing a master's degree in computer science and this question still bothers me. I believe in the existence of God, and can also accommodate the fact that empirical observations are not absolute truth, i.e., the fact that given a contradiction between science and Torah, it will not be possible to prove with absolute certainty who is right. But for the sake of consistency, this is a necessary condition. Proving the correctness of a system from outside the system would be impossible (as in all Torah), but at the very least I would expect it to be possible to prove the correctness from within, otherwise it would be possible to prove one thing and the other. Likewise, it is not possible to judge whether the ruling throughout the generations was correct at all. Perhaps religious figures throughout the generations invented things out of personal interests, etc.

"When the halakhic solution comes in, it will eliminate the contradiction and eliminate the proof of the system's contradiction."

Why is there a need to create a solution every time? Isn't the Torah absolute, but changes from time to time? Isn't the Torah that G-d revealed to the people of Israel from Sinai exactly the same Torah that we learn today? And if the Torah is truly absolute and only new things are "discovered" and not "invented," why do you think it is not possible to define some area from the foundation and judge it mathematically?

"There is a feeling that if this is the nature of Halakha, then this is not a serious system. In my opinion, the situation is the opposite: if it could be proven and its consistency proven, it would not be serious. It also does not mean in any way that it was not given by God. There are different interpretations of what was given by Him. Contrary to your naive assumption and expectation, the Halacha was created by humans and not by God. The basis on which it was built was what we received from Him. But that does not mean that it is not binding. The authenticity of Halacha is not a condition for its validity."

I'm sorry, but I believe that a system of rulings must be consistent, otherwise there is simply no guarantee of its correctness. According to my worldview, there is only one thing in this world that can be proven with absolute certainty, and that is the consistency of a system and the laws within it.

And if you think that consistency cannot be proven at all, why did you believe in something that cannot be proven to be true at least in itself?

Do you believe that this cannot be done at all?

"Here I will prove to you the consistency of a subsystem of Halacha (you said you are satisfied with a subsystem)"

The system proposed by the L.A.D. is not rich enough, I am looking for something rich enough.

מיכי Staff replied 3 years ago

Again, sorry, but you insist on just that.

I explained to you why this demand is unfounded. So it doesn't help to repeat it unless you come up with some kind of argument against what I wrote. You are talking about proofs for or against, and I claim that the format of mathematical or logical proofs is irrelevant to this type of material. I showed you the problematic nature of even the simplest systems that I demonstrated, which you called insufficiently rich. Even there, you will not be able to truly prove consistency or refute it. You will not be able to prove anything in them or their opposite, since proofs are not the format for dealing with such a system.
It is not about creating a solution every time. When there is a problem, a solution is sought. When you have a problem in science or logic, you do not seek a solution? Don't understand this strange claim. Do you want a system that will not create problems or a system that has no problems? The fact that it creates problems is our business, not the system's.
It is not that I think that the field of halakhic law cannot be described logically or mathematically. This is not possible in the fields of natural sciences either (Tarski tried to do this partially. Very weakly), and certainly not in more ‘soft’ fields.
There is nothing to be sorry about. A person makes mistakes sometimes. Legitimate. There are mathematical systems whose consistency cannot be proven. Are you willing to accept them or use them? If not, I don't know what you are doing in the field you mentioned. Not to mention systems whose consistency has not yet been proven (even if it exists). If you believe in any values, not necessarily religious or halakha, or in any legal field or in findings of psychology, physics, chemistry, and the like, I don't see how you do it if their consistency has not been proven. There is almost no field of knowledge whose logical consistency has been proven, except for a few simple mathematical systems. So if you only accept that, good luck to you.
You didn't understand my argument. I showed you that even in this simple system your requirement is not well defined.

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