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שו”תCategory: faithChinese
asked 12 months ago

1. I did not conclude that there was a God who appeared at Sinai. I concluded that there was a dramatic event there. I have faith in the ability of the people who were there to know that they experienced a dramatic event, but I do not have faith in the ability of the people who were there to distinguish between a dramatic event and a “divine revelation.” Note, my doubt is not in the reliability of the chain of reports – if tomorrow morning there was a news story in the newspaper that a hundred thousand uneducated villagers/nomads leading a primitive tribal lifestyle in central Africa/Indonesia excitedly reported that God appeared to them directly last week, collectively, that would not be very convincing to me, because I think it is very doubtful that they have the skill to understand what they saw. They certainly saw *something*, and it must have been very dramatic, but there is no reason to think that they are interpreting it correctly.

Regarding the proposal, first of all, it is my understanding that Qumran contains the biblical text itself, and in particular most of the Book of Deuteronomy. That is what I meant.

In terms of whether the prophecy is indeed concrete or vague – for that matter, for me it is very clear and I honestly don’t think I am “raping” the text or assuming what is wanted. For me it is indeed concrete and special.

The question is mainly whether and in what way it becomes a successful and accurate basis for religious commitment. I am not sure that it takes me directly back to Sinai, because it is simply a prophecy given by Moses – it is not part of what the people heard in the revelation itself. The speaker is Moses. Tradition claims that it is Moses.

I agree that this strengthens the general credibility of the entire tradition, but I’m not sure that it directly applies mainly to Sinai.

Let’s assume for a moment that I don’t think there was a Sinai, and that this is a text first written at the end of the First Temple period by some sages acting under inspiration. Does that necessarily mean that it is not the basis for religious commitment but at most a therapeutic method?

That is, for me it is a visible miracle. The very fulfillment of this prophecy is a miracle. Even if it is not related to Sinai, I see a miracle here. From this arises an aesthetic aspiration that gives rise to a commitment. The sermon is not about meaning for my life, but about the completeness of reality. The feeling, for that matter, is that the world will be more complete if I keep the commandments, regardless of whether it provides me with meaning or not. I have a commitment that the world will be beautiful, complete, and to the best of my judgment it is an objective truth that the world will be more complete when a prophecy that I recognize as a true prophecy continues to be fulfilled.

Is it religious or therapeutic?


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מיכי Staff answered 12 months ago
1. You have come to the conclusion that there was a dramatic event there, and you don’t know what it was. What does that mean? 2. I am not familiar with the Qumran findings, but the biblical text does not need Qumran; it came first. 3. As I wrote to you, if you think the prophecies are significant then that is a good basis. I just don’t understand why you insist that the Torah was not given at Sinai. You have come to the conclusion that there was a dramatic event and convincing prophecies come to you and you are told that they originated there. So you decide that these are convincing prophecies but their origin is not there. I don’t understand the logic. 4. If for some reason you nevertheless come to the conclusion that the text is late, but it contains significant prophecies and gives you instructions. Yes, you can be committed to these instructions as the basis for a good life (because the text knows everything). But why assume that it is binding? Someone commanded you to do this? Living right and being committed are two different things. The aesthetic issue is not clear to me, and it seems to me at most like a consideration of whether this is a correct life. But religious commitment is based on commitment and not just on the fact that it is right. 5. Maimonides writes at the end of Chapter 8 of Kings that one who keeps a commandment because of a decision of the mind and not because of a commitment to the commandment at Sinai, his actions are not a commandment. He is talking about one who keeps them because it is the right thing to do. In essence, this is therapeutic.

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א' replied 12 months ago

Thank you.
1. It means nothing.
2. Qumran creates a strong and above-mentioned barrier to the hypothetical latest date when the Torah was composed. It is possible that this text is older, the traditions are convincing and in high probability it is probably significantly older. But with probability 1 (modulo mega conspiracy) it was written at most during the Judean Desert sect. This does not eliminate any other argument, it only creates a particularly solid and certain ground, which does not depend on any other argument that is only probabilistically true.
3. As mentioned, I do not insist that the Torah was not given at Sinai. I accept that the probability of, say, 70% that it was given at Sinai. There is something to work with here. But if I have a stronger argument that does not rely on this fact and is independent of it, that is a very nice addition.
4. I am trying to offer a subtle nuance here: what binds me is not the fact that they constitute the basis for a good life, as the text promises. What seems to compel me is, in a metaphor that may help, a very strong urge to “complete the puzzle”: The first part of the passage is, in my opinion, a concrete, canonical, and special prophecy that was fulfilled in an unusual way, contrary to all reasonable expectations. I have almost 1 certainty that it is canonical and special (for example, because it describes the course of my life), I have almost 1 certainty that its fulfillment is an unusual event (because it is certainly 1 at least two thousand years old, and the distance of time makes such a prediction very unusual), and I have 1 certainty that it did come true (from personal experience). I have an urge to put the missing piece in the ”puzzle”.

The collection of these strong certainties, which are all more certain to me than the giving of the Torah at Sinai, leads me to think that there is a divine hand here. My expectation of receiving a personal revelation strengthens the claim, because I do verify the fulfillment of the prophecy through personal experience. It is very easy for me to accept that this is indeed a “revelation” or “miracle” that I am exposed to every day, and therefore the sense of aesthetic awe is immense and unprecedented for me.

Is there anything more aesthetic than a visible divine miracle?

The problem is that this miracle, as dramatic as it is, is still incomplete. The text predicts that there will be a sequel. If the sequel also comes true, the miracle will be even more aesthetic.

My aspiration for beauty, and for aesthetics, creates a sense of commitment and a strong desire for this to happen, for the continuation of the prophecy to come true. It doesn't matter at all what the text contains. It doesn't matter that it promises me a good life in the future. If it promised me something else, then that's what I would want. Because what's important is to increase the beautiful miracle. To enhance the beauty of this magnificent phenomenon – a visible divine miracle.

This is not a moral obligation. There is no moral value that obliges me to enhance beauty. This is not a personal-utilitarian obligation, not always what is fun and what is pleasant is also beautiful, and vice versa.

What is here is amazement in the face of an aesthetic wonder, in the face of a magnificent mosaic – which despite everything is still missing. There are stones there that are not placed in place, metaphorically. By analogy, perhaps a kind of OCD – an obligation to complete the mosaic and fulfill the rest of the prophecy.

As the case may be, and what is written there is that what is supposed to happen is that I will fulfill the commandments. In my understanding, these commandments refer to the same Jewish tradition that, with a 70% probability, originated at Sinai. But even contrary to what is likely, Sinai did not exist and was not created – It may not matter, because this is the tradition that came to me and to her, as I understand it, from the prophetic reference.

Have you read “Xenocide”, one of the sequels to “Ender”? by Orson Scott Card. If so, that would give me an exaggerated but endearing analogy – “The Chosen of the Gods” who feel an obsession with performing various rituals.

מיכי Staff replied 12 months ago

Okay, now we've moved on to language that I don't understand at all. OCD belongs to the field of psychology, and I've already written my opinion on it and its relationship to commitment. This 'argument' explains why you have an urge to keep a commandment, not why you are committed. I could also say that I took an LSD pill and therefore I feel an urge to complete the experience by keeping a commandment.
We're repeating ourselves.

א' replied 12 months ago

It was a metaphor. Respect for parents is also a psychological thing. It doesn't matter – it's just a metaphor. If it's not useful it doesn't matter.

Would it be possible to ask to set a time with you again to talk about these things verbally? It's obvious that I can't describe it in writing.

Maybe after I finish reading the liberal sciences, which are the “homework” from the previous conversation?

If that's a possibility

מיכי Staff replied 12 months ago

Respect for parents can be interpreted on two levels: 1. The tendency/impulse to respect parents. 2. The obligation to respect them. The first is psychological and therefore has no ethical or religious value. The second is philosophical.
Just as in morality there is an impulse or instinct to behave morally and there is a moral obligation. The first is psychological and therefore has no value and the second is philosophical.
What you describe is also a type of experience that arouses in you a psychological impulse to act. But this is not justification for a philosophical commitment.
I don't see anything beyond that here, but
Can we talk if you want. By phone or in person?
Coordinate with me on WhatsApp.

א' replied 12 months ago

Good afternoon.

Thank you very much for the meeting at your home. It was very helpful, and beyond that, it was also a great honor to meet you in person.

I wanted to ask you a halachic question.

Can the commandment of honoring parents produce a “Beit Hillel” interpretation of the prohibitions related to homosexual relationships?

Let's say there is a parent whose only dream and aspiration is to see his son in a loving relationship. Could this in some way or variation legitimize the living together of two homosexual couples, or their relationship in one way or another?

Regardless of the explicit act that is forbidden. I am not talking about the sexual practice but about the relationship itself, which I understand is forbidden due to the “acts of the land of Egypt”.

In more harsh terms – If a parent is deeply saddened by the fact that their child will not experience love in a relationship, is there any reason to consider easing the issue, even if not allowing it?

מיכי Staff replied 12 months ago

I am not aware of a prohibition on cohabitation. There is a prohibition on marital life, and it is a prohibition from the Torah. We can talk about the prohibition of exclusiveness that exists in cohabitation. There is an article about this in Bazhar M (see quotes here on the ‘Kimuch’ site. Do you know?).
Everything beyond the law, the law has nothing to say. As for your question. If it is forbidden, then it should not be done for the parents either. And if there is no prohibition, then there is no halachic question. In terms of conduct, everyone will make their own decisions.

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