What Is Greatness in Torah? (Column 682)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In one of the more embarrassing threads on this site about drafting Haredim, Erez wrote the following sentence:
I have become convinced today from a conversation with that kollel man that there are no “Gedolim” who are not Haredi, and that our crown, the late Rabbi Kook (the Ra’ayah), was the last “Gadol B’Yisrael” whose outlook was not Haredi.
These words come straight from the mouth of a “high priest,” a person whose understanding of Torah is roughly like my understanding of ancient Chinese. Yet he is deeply and emphatically convinced of this because he spent one evening with a Haredi kollel man who spoke (nonsense) “eloquently and persuasively.” Since it cannot be denied that such a feeling exists among many (and of course among all Haredim, though not only them), I thought it appropriate to try to understand where this comes from. Therefore, I wrote a column that will touch on the question of who is a Gadol in Torah.
Infants Captured by Themselves
More than once I have written (see for example Columns 655, 680, and more) that the Haredi public conducts itself childishly (=infantile). The arguments advanced to justify its path are generally foolish and reflect a basic lack of understanding in various fields of knowledge as well as in halachic application. In many cases, social pressures determine truth and understanding. This is a public of “infants captured,” except that they are captive to themselves. But even in such a situation, and perhaps precisely then, it is apt to say that “a prisoner cannot release himself from prison.” Why do I mention this here? Because this too is intimately connected to the question addressed in this column: what is greatness in Torah.
The initial trigger for writing this column arose a few days ago, when I read an article by Yehuda Yifrach in last Shabbat’s supplement of Makor Rishon, “‘Put pressure on us’: Rabbis from the heart of the Lithuanian world talk about the conscription issue” (for those who want to read it as a file, see PDF). The article is certainly interesting, and the headline gives a sense of the depth of the captivity in which the Haredi public finds itself. However, it is worth noting that the term “rabbis” in the Haredi context means married men, sometimes kollel fellows and sometimes Ramim (teachers) in some yeshiva high school or major yeshiva. There is no reason to think these are the words of Haredi leaders.
These things join what Rabbi Elchanan Nir brought in an article from about nine months ago, in which he recounts a meeting he and Rabbi Tamir Granot had with a well-known Haredi rabbi about conscription and more (this time it was indeed a fairly prominent Haredi leader):
Recently I had a long visit, together with my friend Rabbi Tamir Granot, with a recognized Haredi Gadol. “Come and be part of the people of Israel,” we cried in his ears. He understood and even agreed that we were right. “But if I go out publicly and say that you are right,” he justified, “they will persecute and boycott me.” And then he added candidly: “We are a community of children; you are a community of adults. We will not be able to mature on our own. The internal mechanism will cut off any attempt at change. You will have to give us a kick; only that way will we grow.”
Anyone familiar with Haredi conduct does not need these descriptions. There is no doubt that these feelings exist even among the highest rabbinic leadership, which is itself captive. You can sense this from Yifrach’s descriptions of the clandestineness required for some of his interlocutors to agree to be interviewed anonymously. I too have previously brought similar descriptions. You understand that a society that operates this way—where one cannot raise opinions for open discussion and everything runs under fear—is a distorted society. Of course, one cannot take seriously anything Haredim say. There is no way to know what a Haredi person really thinks, even when he speaks in a private forum. And certainly there is no way to gauge their religious devotion and worldviews, since outwardly there is always a perfect façade (see Column 680, in the section “A brief discussion on the price of insularity,” which deals with the myth of Haredi survivability).
The absurdity here is that we are dealing with a public that follows its leaders who are themselves captive to the public and its activists, and so on in a vicious circle. They are in a loop one cannot escape from—at least if they are unwilling to take steps and pay prices (see the end of Column 680)—and they continue to fear their own shadow. Each one there fears the other, creating a community whose distorted conduct is based on mutual fear. Therefore, even those already willing to sound the alarm and admit the problematic situation continue to hide and to release declarations from the closet through journalists and non-Haredi people. They are begging for someone to save them from themselves, since after Baron Münchhausen who pulled himself up by his hair and got himself out of the pit, we have not found a prisoner who frees himself from jail.
But here I wish to touch on a point that arose in Yifrach’s article, almost as a side remark (I don’t know why it is customary to write mesiach, as in “speech in distraction”)—a point that brings us to our topic here.
On the Difference Between Haredim and the RZ Public: The Ills of “Hardalism”
I will begin with a passage that made me write this column. Within the article, Yifrach brings the following words:
“For the average Haredi, there is only one scale by which to assess whether you are a good Jew: how much Gemara you learn, the quality of your scholarship, the level of your observance of the commandments. He cannot imagine a conception that has two scales. He cannot grasp that there is a yeshiva student who prays with devotion because he reads poetry, and that military service is a realization of an authentic Jewish value. And there is nothing to be done: up against the Haredi scale—the Mizrachnikim will always lose. The Zionist yeshivot—in the hours when they study Gemara—do what we do, only in a far less serious manner. Your rabbis acknowledge this superiority. There is no Zionist rabbi who will erase the Haredi Gedolei HaDor.”
This passage is instructive. Beyond the essential value question of what is truly most important (scholarship and mitzvot versus other matters), note the factual assumption so deeply embedded in them, as if it were self-evident. They all (including Yehuda Yifrach himself, of course, who did not think to comment on it) have internalized well the Haredi propaganda according to which Haredim engage in scholarship, they are professionals, whereas the “Mizrachnikim” are at best amateurs whose concern is devotion and poetry, civic engagement, military service, and self-sacrifice (and the meticulous, like Yifrach’s interviewees, add: “which is certainly worthy of appreciation”). Their attitude toward RZ rabbis is roughly like ours toward Reform rabbis.
It cannot be denied that communities that do not engage in halacha and study—certainly Reform but also some Orthodox—appoint rabbis and rebbetzins who are evaluated on other planes, unrelated to learning. Those who can speak, quote Tanakh, play beautifully and stir hearts, deliver sermons and preach ethics, quote poets and authors, and tell and explain the aggadot of Hazal. Rabbis are evaluated by charisma and pastoral ability, by understanding and empathy for the community, and less by scholarly level. I am not saying a congregational rabbi need be a superb scholar, nor that the aforementioned traits are unimportant; but this colors the conception of “greatness in Torah” in general (see my article on this). Unfortunately, this illness of cheapening the title “rabbi” has penetrated deeply into the Religious-Zionist camp as well, where everyone receives the title “rabbi” by virtue of various merits (some indeed praiseworthy), but they cut corners on scholarship and classic halachic-Torah knowledge. Therefore this public rightly gets hit by Haredi criticism.
If I return to the description from the article, the latter part is certainly correct: additional planes beyond scholarship are worthy of appreciation. Mitzvot and good deeds, ethics, the ability to deliver and speak, and so forth—all these are fine and important virtues. But these do not come in place of knowledge and scholarship, only in addition to them. Yet here I arrive at the point that it is precisely the former part that upsets me more. Clearly a Judaism of scholarship alone is distorted and flawed, and such Torah is not worth much. But the assumption that the Haredi model reflects “greatness in Torah” in the scholarly sense is also distorted. I argue that there is distortion even on the factual plane that appears in the article, namely that the Gedolei Torah are Haredi (as in Erez’s claim at the start). In my view, the RZ—and particularly the Hardal—inferiority complex is at play here, whereby it is clear that the real Gedolei Torah are Haredi. No one dares to question this “fact.” Well, except me (the heretic), of course.
The root of the problem is the model of greatness in Torah. Again, I am not speaking about the need for deeds beyond learning and observance in the Haredi, narrow sense. That is self-evident. To call Haredi life “meticulous observance of mitzvot” is a joke, since some of the most important mitzvot and moral values are trampled there in a disgraceful manner, and the desecration of God’s name that results drags down to the abyss any shred of value there is in their deeds and learning. As the prophet already said: “Why do I need your many sacrifices?” But here our subject is greatness in Torah in its direct sense. I want to dispute even that.
The Hardal model of greatness in Torah is borrowed from the Haredim. They can declare marvelous and broad statements from Rav Kook until tomorrow. But at the end of the day, deeply embedded within them are the narrow Haredi concepts of greatness in Torah. Their model is essentially the Haredi model, and it is no wonder that in that arena they lose. No one can be more Haredi than the Haredim. If you compete on their field, you lose. One cannot compare the number of scholars and the scope of scholarship between the two worlds. The Haredim invest all their energy, their best people and talent in this, and of course trample everything else. As it is said: “I was never defeated except by a master of one craft.” Therefore the Hardal inferiority complex is so deep—and rightly so. You cannot be more Haredi than the Haredim. When the competition is on their field, you will certainly lose. Incidentally, hence the disgraceful cooperation of the Hardalim with Haredim and their distortions, as we have seen in recent years in the political arena. The discourse, of course, leans on respect for those with different positions and their spiritual and rabbinic leadership (nahara nahara u-pashtei), closeness to “our brothers” in Torah and mitzvot, and other honey-dripping slogans. But fundamentally lies a very deep inferiority complex born of their model of greatness in Torah.
In my eyes, incidentally, this is the deepest attack that “Hardalism” inflicts on the RZ conception and public. The implicit adoption and entrenchment of Haredi standards as the ideal model (despite minor declarations to the contrary), as you can see in Yifrach’s article—both among the interviewees and the interviewer. Hence, of course, any other model is seen as “lite,” as Mizrachnik amateurism. The Hardalim try with all their might to imitate Haredi devotion to Torah, the narrowing of Torah (along with hatred and dismissal of academia, for example), while at the margins there is a controlled and cautious engagement in the “white Shas” of Rav Kook (and for the meticulous, also in Emunat Iteinu of Rabbi Tau, the writings of Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda, etc.). Well, no one is perfect.
I have recounted here in the past that after a period when we lived in Bnei Brak, I developed the feeling that a rabbi with a knitted kippah cannot truly be a scholarly figure. It was clear to me that each of them could sit in my class and learn something about scholarship. It took me a very long time to free myself from these inferiority feelings and from clinging to external markers like modern Hebrew, reliance on common sense, non-Torah sources, and the like. None of these necessarily indicate that you are not a scholar. In the end, the process I describe in this column led me to the opposite conclusion. These are conditions for greatness in Torah.
As I wrote in response to Erez’s words, in my view the situation is the reverse: there are almost no Haredi Gedolei Torah. A lad could count them. To understand why, I must describe my model of greatness in Torah. And I stress again: I am not speaking of greatness in character traits, devotion, mitzvot, and good deeds. My concern here is greatness in Torah—who is a talmid hacham. My claim is that the Haredi (and by extension the Hardal) model of greatness in Torah is crooked and distorted.
Who Is a Gadol in Torah: Three Additional Features
As noted, no one disputes that in the Haredi world there are many more people who master all the treasures of the Ketzos HaChoshen, Reb Chaim, and the Rashba. Some are people with excellent analytical abilities whose general lectures are a pleasure to hear. There are poskim there with complete command of the halachic literature in its branches. This is the figure of the scholar and the posek in the Haredi model. But is this the full realization of the concept “greatness in Torah”? I emphasize that what follows is written out of deep appreciation for these abilities, and out of deep disagreement with the cheapening of the title “rabbi” and distributing it to people who are not endowed with such knowledge and abilities—rabbis and rebbetzins whose scholarly ability is roughly like that of a third-year yeshiva student. But precisely from such a view one must beware the opposite error: seeing these skills as the entirety of greatness in Torah.
In my view, greatness in Torah must certainly include knowledge and scholarly skill and analytical ability. But beyond that, it must include at least three more things (which are interrelated): common sense, good familiarity and understanding of the world, and reasonable literacy in other disciplines (certainly recognition of and respect for them). These three are greatly lacking in those whom the Haredim call “Gedolei Torah.” On the contrary, from their perspective a reasonable measure of these is not an advantage but a disadvantage; it shows that such a “Gadol” is not truly immersed in Torah. A Gadol in their view should be cloistered in a room full of faded brown and black books in Rashi script, with gold lettering on the cover: Darkei Yechiel, Nachalat Mahalalel, Birkat HaZevach, Ta’alulei Mechuyal, and the like. They must be written in archaic language, neither sharp nor clear, and Heaven forbid to use modes of thought not handed down from our ancient teachers. And if they peek at another book—only under the table where no one knows, and certainly never to make any use of it.
You will forgive me if I do not bring sources and citations here—from the Rambam on Ma’aseh Bereishit and Merkavah, through the Gra on the need to master the seven wisdoms, and so on. Why do I need a verse? Reason suffices! I don’t even think those wisdoms are merely “spices and cooks” for Torah. In my view, they have intrinsic value. In Brisker terminology, I have often distinguished between “Torah in the person”—the totality of the wisdoms, including aggadah, ethics, and thought—and “Torah in the object”—study of halacha and Talmudic analysis in halachic sugyot. Haredi Torah is indeed Torah in the object—the core of the concept “Torah”—and it is important not to mix it with other fields. But as I have explained, this division does not necessarily reflect a difference in importance but in essence (whether the value of study is objective or subjective). It is hard to elaborate here; I have written at length elsewhere about the root of the matter.
In Column 655, I discussed the traits of Haredi thinking, both about the world and about study (see Column 680 on how the Haredi duality and detachment from common sense begins in their Torah study and from there moves to worldly matters and general ideas). At times you will find logical arguments there whose conclusions indeed follow formally from their premises. Haredim examine an argument or scholarly construction by its coherence, but look less at whether it holds water from the standpoint of common sense. In their eyes, contradiction to common sense is even a virtue, for “the opinion of householders is the opposite of the opinion of Torah.” Any idiot in the street can state common-sense notions, but absurd ideas based on valid arguments are the skill of “Gedolei Torah.”
I have previously cited the words of Rabbi Benny Lau, who said that a Rosh Yeshiva delivers his lectures before an audience of brilliant students who scrutinize the consistency of the structures he presents. But they are too young to tell him “this doesn’t make sense.” Thus is created an ideology that produces a Torah detached from common sense and sound reason—a Torah that anyone looking from the outside understands is not “our wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations.” And the rabbinic leadership is the one that excels in this detached thinking. This has become the model of greatness in Torah.
Detachment from other fields of knowledge leads to a lack of conceptual clarity in the yeshiva world. The habit of defining concepts and analyzing them a priori before using them in scholarly constructions is a blessed academic habit that has not penetrated the yeshiva world. Much of the analytical pilpul could be avoided and clarified were we to precede it with conceptual analysis. It also places the scholarly idea you are dealing with in a broader context with implications in other disciplines. Thus clarity is achieved, coherence of thought, and greater depth. The technical pilpul gains flesh, skin, and sinews, and ceases to be a detached logical structure. I dealt with all this in my lectures on conceptual analysis (see for example here).
A General Note
Before I continue, I must sharpen an important point. Clearly ascetic greatness cloistered in four cubits of faded books is also very important. This is a possible and important model of greatness in Torah, and I do not come to deny it. On the contrary, in my view it is important that there be such people and to encourage their growth. Here I wish to argue three claims: 1) This is not the only model of greatness in Torah. 2) Such a Gadol must not be given roles and authority of leadership. 3) In many cases, a Gadol of this type lacks common sense and breadth of horizon, which harms even his rulings and scholarship in the narrow sense. If these are lacking, it is hard to truly regard him as a Gadol in Torah. On these matters, see here a clip from my conversation with Roi Yozevitch, Column 163, Column 139, and the article on two models of the rabbi, and more.
Example: What Is a Plague?
One of the clearest examples of the limitations of narrow greatness is the criminal conduct of R. Chaim Kanievsky and his flock during COVID-19 (my conversation with Yozevitch above was held in its wake). I am not dealing here with whether there is an obligation to obey the law, nor whether the doctors’ guidelines were necessarily correct. I am also not talking about R. Chaim’s “holy spirit” and whether in the end he was proven right. Here I am talking solely about the narrow approach that led to the problematic decisions he made for the Haredi public at large, and the terrible desecration of God’s name they caused.
I can surmise that when R. Chaim came to decide on opening educational institutions during the pandemic, he examined the matter with the halachic-Torah tools he was accustomed to using. I am not speaking about the fact that the approach to a plague is influenced by Scripture and Talmud, which see it as divine punishment, the main way to cope with which is prayer and study (yes, yes—there is also “hishtadlut,” of course). According to this, it is no wonder that precisely during a plague one must not cancel children’s Torah study, no?! But here I address a different aspect.
If you check the Talmudic definition of a plague, you will find it in Ta’anit 19a:
What is considered an epidemic? A city that sends out five hundred [able-bodied] footmen and three dead are taken from it on three consecutive days—this is an epidemic; fewer than that is not an epidemic.
And so rules the Rambam, Hilkhot Ta’aniyot 2:5:
As for an epidemic—what is an epidemic? A city that has five hundred able-bodied men and three dead are taken from it on three consecutive days—this is an epidemic. If they die on one day or over four days, it is not an epidemic. If it has a thousand and six dead are taken over three consecutive days—this is an epidemic. If on one day or over four days, it is not an epidemic. And so proportionally. Women, children, and elderly men retired from work are not counted among the city’s men for this matter.
And in the Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 576:2:
And similarly for an epidemic: what is an epidemic? A city that has five hundred able-bodied men and three dead are taken from it on three consecutive days—this is an epidemic. If on one day or over four days, it is not an epidemic. If it has a thousand and six dead are taken over three days consecutively—this is an epidemic. If on one day or over four days, it is not an epidemic; and so proportionally. Women, children, and elderly men retired from work are not counted among the city’s men for this. If there is an epidemic in Eretz Yisrael, the other diasporas fast for them (and specifically if it is throughout the whole, not part) (Ran, ch. 3 of Ta’anit). If there is an epidemic in a province, and caravans go to and from it to another province, both fast even if they are far from each other.
We have clear numerical criteria by which to determine whether there is an epidemic. Without entering how sharp or binding this is, it is very plausible that this would be the basis guiding the typical Haredi posek in deciding such questions.
However, I surmise that R. Chaim, like other Haredi poskim, had never heard of the concept of an “exponential process.” A plague is such a process, and therefore its growth rate is not really grasped by one unversed in the matter. To illustrate, I will bring an example I once heard (I have brought it before). Think of a very large sheet of paper. You fold it and its thickness doubles. Fold again, and it quadruples, and so on. How many times must one fold such a sheet so that its thickness reaches from the earth to the moon?… Well, the answer is not a million billion times, nor even a thousand. It is forty folds. Note: forty (!!!) folds of a sheet one millimeter thick bring us to a thickness approximately the distance from the earth to the moon. Just to give a feel: the last fold (after 39 folds) adds another half of the distance from earth to the moon (it doubles the thickness, thus getting us to the moon). Exponential processes are very surprising. They begin slowly: another millimeter and another millimeter. But very quickly you get to an addition of kilometers and millions of kilometers in a single fold.
Now consider a plague in which on day one one person dies. So too on day two. On day three, two people die. All these are fluctuations around an exponential process which, if not monitored immediately, will very quickly produce thousands and hundreds of thousands of dead every hour. The criterion of “how many die each day” is in no way relevant to such processes. Diagnosing them is difficult and requires expertise (and even that does not always succeed, as we saw with COVID), and understanding their significance requires minimal familiarity with mathematical calculations. Therefore, one unfamiliar with exponential processes cannot make decisions in such questions.
This is not merely a technical matter. It is part of greatness in Torah. Understanding the world, familiarity with other disciplines, or at least awareness of problems and readiness to consult, to know whom to consult (hint: not Gafni and Deri), and to understand what the advisors say. This requires familiarity with and appreciation for such fields. A posek who sits cloistered in his room with the same musty books and makes decisions by “holy spirit” without consulting can bring disaster. But beyond the outcomes, here I claim first and foremost that he rules halacha incorrectly. It is not only a practical problem and a danger; it calls into question his greatness as a halachic decisor.
Further Halachic Examples
Consider a halachic question about forming a minyan over Zoom. I have previously written that in my opinion it is possible to combine into a minyan people who are in a shared Zoom meeting, even if physically they are in different and far-flung places. The reason is that such an encounter is considered as being in the same place, i.e., a site (makom). It is not for nothing that a “place” on the web is called a “site,” since those in it feel a shared presence, just as do those in the same room. One can, of course, argue with this claim, but one who has never experienced this cannot understand it. You cannot pose such a question to R. Chaim Kanievsky or to Rav Elyashiv, because they lack the tools to understand it and answer it.
The same holds for questions concerning women’s status in synagogue or generally. Consider a question about attending a performance by a female singer. A typical Haredi posek will surely forbid it out of hand. Even if the questioner explains that he enjoys the musical quality of her singing, that posek will surely dismiss it and think that he is just trying to find a heter. To that posek it is obvious that the desire has a sexual component; otherwise, why would someone want to listen specifically to a woman singer? He has never heard a woman sing and does not understand the musical value people see in such singing. Therefore, in his view listening to a woman singer is certainly a desire to arouse forbidden thoughts.
So too regarding a question about a woman being called to the Torah, or even whether to allow her to deliver a dvar Torah (what is the problem with that at all?). A posek who will address such a question must understand the situation, understand the significance of the matter for the woman and the community, and a typical Haredi posek has no way to answer such a question because he does not understand the situation. In principle, he could do so if he were attentive to the questioner’s words and descriptions and gave him credit that he is not merely seeking a heter but describing things as they are.
I do not intend to claim that every posek unfamiliar with a situation is disqualified from judging it. I refer to extreme unfamiliarity, namely a situation far from the posek’s world (see my article here). Beyond that, he must be willing to listen and to evaluate the situation through the eyes of the questioner. In such cases, I very much doubt you will find this among conservative poskim. Their very conservatism and closedness do not allow them to consider such arguments seriously, even when there is room for such considerations.
A Haredi posek will sometimes completely ignore the needs of people in his own community. Poskim who forbid women to drive, or yeshiva boys to travel during intersession and to learn to drive, to attend (Haredi male) music evenings, and the like. It seems they are entirely detached from understanding the needs and atmosphere, and they impose an impossible burden on their flock. This reflects detachment from understanding the Haredi world itself.
Many more examples can be found. One might argue that it is unreasonable to demand that every posek be familiar with every situation he judges. My claim is that there is no such demand, though it is fitting to be familiar with common situations (like using computers and the internet) and certainly situations in the Haredi world itself. In any case, he must be willing to listen to those who live that situation and to take their descriptions into account.
To the same extent, it is important that a posek who makes public and political decisions (like those guiding the Haredi parties) understand how a state is run (as opposed to a community)—a point sorely lacking in Haredi rabbinic leadership. It appears that poskim do not understand the difference. You can see this in the arguments for exempting Haredim from conscription (see, for example, the absurd discussion here). Haredim argue that there is currently no real danger, since there are enough soldiers to handle the problems (and if not, they should draft Hesder students during yeshiva periods, or further extend compulsory service and reserve duty—just as our reckless government, run by Haredim, in fact did). And what if a real danger arises of a multi-front war? Well, then we’ll enlist. They completely ignore the terrible burden on reservists and its economic and social ramifications. They ignore that a modern army cannot operate by drafting when there is danger. We are not in biblical times; when the enemies are at the gates, we cannot then recruit people and train them for modern warfare. These arguments are not only those of rank-and-file kollel men. I am quite sure their leaders see things this way too. They do not understand how to run a state, nor the difference between it and a community. In their minds they are still in Warsaw or Vilna.
Failures in Narrow-Minded Scholarship
All these are failures in halachic decision-making. A Gadol in Torah who is mandated with leadership and halachic rulings must certainly be evaluated by these parameters as well. But what about the scholar (Rosh Yeshiva)? He gives lectures and writes scholarly works, but is not a posek and does not rule in practice. Is there a problem of narrowness for him? I think there are also flaws and defects in the scholarship of narrow-minded rabbis. Broader and deeper understanding of sugyot is achieved by those whose horizons are wider. The scholarly depth and breadth of perspective are affected by familiarity with logic, history, philosophy, psychology, economics, and other sciences and wisdoms—each according to his inclinations and skills. Again, the intent is not that a scholar must be expert in all wisdoms. That is almost impossible. But he must have some footing, understanding, recognition, and appreciation of them. Unlike halachic decision-making (as in an exponential epidemic), here even consulting experts will not help, since usually there is no concrete question he himself will recognize as demanding consultation.
I think there are several examples on this site of scholarly thinking nourished by ties to other disciplines. Let us take two examples. Consider the kal va-chomer of “included in two hundred is one hundred.” A regular kal va-chomer derives conclusions from a strict/lenient relationship between two contexts. For example, in Mishnah Bava Kamma 24b we learn that a horn is liable in the victim’s courtyard by a kal va-chomer from tooth and foot. Such a kal va-chomer can be refuted by counter-arguments showing that horn is not necessarily stricter than tooth and foot, or that the victim’s courtyard is not necessarily easier to obligate than the public domain. But there is another type, called “included in two hundred is one hundred,” which several Aharonim assume cannot possibly be refuted. For example: “If one is liable for opening [a pit], all the more so for digging.” Opening a pit obligates the owner to pay for damage caused in it. So one who dug the entire pit and not only opened it is certainly liable. Here the relation between opening and digging is not only stringency/leniency but inclusion: every digging includes within it opening, and therefore all the laws of opening must certainly apply to digging as well. As noted, some Aharonim believe that a kal va-chomer of this type cannot be refuted, since it is not a relation of stringency but of inclusion. But in Column 318 I showed that this is not so. Philosophical understanding, generalization, and a broader view that sees also legal and scientific dimensions can help the learner understand this.
Another example is concepts of authority. In several places I have distinguished between two different concepts: formal authority and substantive authority. Substantive authority is the authority of an expert; it arises from the fact that he likely knows more and is more skilled than I in that field, and therefore is probably correct. Formal authority is authority granted to a person or institution based on who they are, like the authority of the Knesset or of the Holy One Blessed be He. Many entanglements in sugyot of authority arise because people do not distinguish between these two types. Among other things, the authority of the Talmud is presented as a result of the Amoraim’s spiritual charisma and supreme abilities (each could revive the dead). The need for such rationales indicates that people think it is substantive authority (the sages of the Talmud cannot err). But the truth is that their authority is formal, not substantive. And the proof is the many errors found in the Talmud, not only in scientific and mathematical matters. Another pitfall deriving from the failure to distinguish is attributing the authority of “lo tasur” to the sages of our generation—based, of course, on the “da’at Torah” they have.
These are, of course, two random examples among very many. Thus, for instance, analyzing the Rambam and Ramban’s disputes in the first two shorashim must be done with awareness of the legal implications of the two approaches, yet in the (very sparse) literature interpreting the Shorashim you will not find this. The entire book Yishlach Shoreshav is full of scholarly ramifications from other fields of knowledge for understanding the Rambam’s meaning in the Shorashim. We have not yet spoken of understanding the methods and rules of derash—especially the logical rules (kal va-chomer, binyan av, and the refutations against them). Logical analysis of these rules resolves many difficulties that the average scholar has no way to cope with. Economic knowledge can, of course, be very helpful for understanding sugyot such as those in “Perek HaZahav” (about money and goods and the meanings of various transactions—see Columns 522–525), for understanding the scholarly concept of “chalut” (see my article here), for understanding the meanings of various clashes between halachic rules (like “a positive commandment overrides a negative one,” etc.) and moral rules, the analysis of halacha-and-ethics sugyot, issues of probabilistic evidence (226, 228), of the different kinds of majority rules, such as kavua (several columns on this site), and much more.
In many sugyot, scholars make analytical calculations and build tall and complex structures describing the positions in the sugya, whereas a preliminary conceptual analysis would have saved a substantial part of the work, and placing the matter in a broader context would illuminate it brilliantly (see the lecture series on conceptual analysis).
Some Complementary Remarks
In general, as I understand it, greatness in Torah is no different from any other field in its nature. It is specialization in a disciplinary field like any other. There are two main differences from other fields:
- Scope. Greatness in Torah requires, beyond mastery of the material itself and the skills of analysis and synthesis, also intellectual greatness that is as multi-disciplinary as possible (I mentioned earlier several fields that may be important, but in principle any field may be). While broad intellectual horizons are a value in themselves beyond greatness in Torah, they do not necessarily contribute to the specific disciplinary field one engages in (sometimes they do). The statement that someone is great in Torah has a different meaning and weight than the statement that he is a great mathematician.
- The more essential difference is not in the nature of greatness but in the following questions:
- How important it is to be great in Torah as opposed to greatness in another field. Greatness in Torah is a value, while greatness in another field is less so (if at all). At the very least, one is value in the object and the other in the subject.
- In Torah study it is important to apply what one learns (“to learn in order to perform”) and to conclude with practical conclusions (“study that leads to action”). A mathematician is not a triangle, and this does not harm his mathematical quality, but a talmid hacham must apply his Torah, and if he does not, that is a defect.
Here I will only note that I do not mean to claim that the goal of study is application, i.e., that learning has only instrumental value. On the contrary, greatness in Torah is a value in itself, not the creation of a living encyclopedia whose purpose is to help fulfill halacha. The very holding of Torah and delving into it is a value of its own. See Column 479 and my article here.
One practical ramification of this picture is that there is no added value to studying the laws of Shabbat over studying Kodashim and Taharot. Both should be studied aliba de-hilchata in this sense. As I understand it, intellectual pilpul in Torah is the very essence of the matter and of greatness in Torah—except that pilpul must be done properly, broadly, and from deep horizons, with common sense, and concluding in practical outcomes.
In a WhatsApp discussion I held on this matter, the statement of the late R. Avraham Shapira was raised—that a Gadol in Torah is one who can permit agunot. I replied that in my opinion the release of agunot is not the most complex field in halacha. It is no more complex than issur ve-heter, the laws of damages and Choshen Mishpat, and the like. It has that reputation because of the heavy responsibility borne by those who engage in it, i.e., because of the significant implications for women (it is roughly like saying that medicine is the smartest and most complex science—nothing could be further from the truth. There too the responsibility is heavy, but the depth and complexity are hardly prominent compared to other sciences, to put it mildly. A doctor is a mechanic of a complex machine with weight and value). I added that even in the field of permitting agunot, it is not a matter of halachic knowledge in the narrow sense. Understanding the world is very important; common sense no less; and even statistical and scientific understanding (see Columns 612–614).
Conclusion
As I wrote above, this column is not meant to undermine the greatness of people who devote themselves to Torah study and are cloistered in their four cubits of halacha. My claims are that such greatness is not suitable for public leadership (contrary to the myth that devotion to Torah leads a man to the right answers even without familiarity with the world and the relevant fields of knowledge), that it comes to propose other models of greatness, and also to argue that this model in many cases is lacking, mainly because of three things: unfamiliarity with the world, unfamiliarity with other fields of knowledge, and a lack of common sense. These matters are sharpened all the more in our time, when the weight of Torah knowledge diminishes and the weight of all these rises (until GPT arrives and empties even that of content).
All these deficiencies are not offset by encyclopedic knowledge and analytical pilpulim. I write this as one who highly appreciates these abilities. Rabbis who lead their flocks in such a detached and childish way are not Gedolei Torah—at least not in the relevant sense. These are children with impressive analytical abilities. My aim in this column was to break this infantile model and the unjustified inferiority feelings toward it. For this reason, I insist on not playing the honor games toward the leaders of all Haredi and conservative streams. This entrenches that inferiority complex and embeds it among Haredim and Religious-Zionists alike.
The assumption that total focus is a necessary condition for greatness in Torah may be correct, but it is a necessary (and not entirely so) and certainly not a sufficient condition. Knowing the world—including literature, thought, and science—is a very important component of greatness in Torah. This, of course, does not require every posek or scholar to earn an academic degree (though in my view it is very desirable), but to know, to be conversant, and to appreciate—most definitely yes.
In conclusion, I now propose to re-examine the assumption that most Gedolei Torah are Haredi. This depends, of course, on your model of greatness in Torah, but I think that by the parameters presented here, the answer will be entirely different from the prevailing answer that takes for granted the Haredi-conservative model.
The rabbi wrote about the mustards that they borrow their understanding of greatness from the Haredim, although I am not one of the aforementioned group, I will refer the rabbi to Rabbi Yosef Kellner's book "The Criterion for Truth and Morality", where he explains that a person is greater when he is more "general", meaning that he contains more, knows more opinions, methods, and in any case also the wisdom and understanding with the world in all respects. Which is no different from what the rabbi wrote in the column.
Of course, there are decrees among the mustards and they themselves disagree about who the successors of the late rabbi are, and it seems that the rabbi was talking more about yeshivas like Har HaMor and Mitzpe Ramon, which are definitely Haredi in their outlook, but in places like Eli the situation is a bit different, fortunately for us.
I won't go into the nuances, but the general description is correct. Rabbi Kelner is just recycling slogans from Rabbi Kook. The question is what is actually happening, not what is stated in the writings. The fact that a strong sense of inferiority has been created towards Haredim. And that is true, my husband, as on Mount Moriah.
Anecdote in a nutshell
A while ago, it became known, and not for the first time, that Ali's students were staying at Viznitz in Bnei Brak for Shabbat. I thought it was a nice idea, provided it was mutual.
I won't fall off my chair if the aforementioned Erez is an ultra-Orthodox troll. I just find it hard to believe how the worldview of an average Seder guy can fall apart following such a poor set of arguments.
Thanks for the column.
Still, in terms of the inferiority complex of the Da'tal, they may be right: while the Da'tal rabbis do have the additional elements of greatness, they ultimately lack a lot compared to the Haredim in terms of knowledge of the Torah and the scope that you emphasized and emphasized again and again, which is a significant condition in your opinion as well.
Am I right?
Absolutely. But there is no need to feel inferior. A person with many skills will always be weaker in one skill than a person with only one skill.
You mentioned the Gra, who must know seven wisdoms, [and this is not the main point of the column] but was the Gra himself and other great ones in the past who were not called “Haredim” Were they not bundled together with faded books, etc.?
To the point, it should be added that a judge in the Sanhedrin had to know seventy languages, and be proficient even in witchcraft,
As an Haredi, I agree with much of the criticism of a narrow-minded way of thinking and one who is afraid of the shadow of the other, – In general, I agree with much of what you said, and at the same time I strongly disagree with many of your thoughts, allow me to express my feelings, Rabbi, because it is very difficult with you and difficult without you
I don't know what the Gra knew, but I assume that if he demanded something, he fulfilled it himself. If his books were dull, it probably was. That was how it was with everyone back then. So what?
In the order of the Rabbi, we got the hint. We are convinced that you are the greatest of our generation.
And without any connection to the column, you wrote “and the evidence for this is the many errors found in the Talmud, and not just in scientific and mathematical matters”. Do you have any sources you can direct me to?
In my opinion, this is especially true of Israeli Haredi. Abroad, one can see an excessive openness to external wisdom among rabbis, as well as among outsider rabbis such as R’ Asher Weiss, who are not at all disconnected from common sense and yet effectively implement the Haredi rabbinical model of being clothed in the foundations of Torah and Halacha.
According to the model you drew, do you see yourself as great in Torah?
If so, that somewhat diminishes the credibility of the conclusion because perhaps there is a personal touch to it…
I object to the impudent and irrelevant question. If this is true, and it is certainly true from a theoretical perspective, and you are welcome to peruse the wonderful columns and convince yourself, then what does it matter how he sees himself? It is very possible that he believed this from the beginning and aspired to it anyway, and even if not, again, what does it matter? On the merits of the matter, he is right, and you are welcome to present a counter-theory rather than raise impudent and foolish questions.
When the competition is in their march – on the field
Here in my desire to claim – in my desire
Yesher Kawh.
By the way, you hurt the yeshiva boys in Shiur C’ when you accepted them into all kinds of rabbis and rabbis…:)
Thanks. Fixed.
I am not familiar with what is happening now in the Haredi yeshivot, but I do want to add that at least from my superficial impression - I do not see any extraordinary news coming from the Haredi yeshivot in the last few decades. Books are published endlessly, but I do not know of a book that presents a new teaching method or unique ruling: In Thomas Kuhn's terms, it seems that the Haredi yeshivot today are only concerned with "standard scholarship" that further and further expands what is already known and applies it to increasingly esoteric details, and there are no paradigm shifts like those made by R’ Chaim of Brisk, R’ Shimon Shekap, the great Hasidic scholars, the Shulmans, the Maimonides (and these are just examples and I am sure you can give many more - but I think you will have a hard time finding such an example from the last generation or two). I do think that in the Zionist yeshiva world, there are efforts and even successes to create a new type of study - whether by combining academic, literary, or philosophical tools, or a more existential study that, even if you don't like it, is still a new and often refreshing way to study. So it may not be classical or scholarly study in the sense that you refer to it, but there is an effort here to study the Torah in a new way and discover unique and different aspects of it than what has been the case to date - and to my impression, it is a sincere and genuine attempt to make the Torah relevant out of a true belief that it has something to teach and offer to the modern learner as well. I am not very knowledgeable, but from my impression, not only is there no such message coming out of the Haredi yeshiva, but on the contrary, it is considered a kind of heresy.
You are not right. There are certainly many innovations in the Haredi world as well. Countless. From Mintzberg, continuing with the Schreiber brothers, the Inbal brothers, and more. There are probably many more that I am not familiar with. But all of these are considered esoteric fringes and not Torah greats who are publicly recognized as such.
Can the rabbi provide an example of innovation in the Haredi world? (I mean innovation in "transparent" matters, not in the scholarly/Talmudic aspect, which is certainly more abundant than in the Da'tal community)
No. I'm not interested in that. I don't know how to bring innovations in learning either because I don't know. But I know that there are.
But if we've reached the point where there are more scholarly innovations there than in the religious community, again a claim that I don't know what it's based on and that contradicts your previous statements, we've already done something.
We heard the innovations of one of the Schreiber brothers at the beginning of the war.
You're mixing ad hominem. Both of them are probably not great intellectuals in the sense that goes beyond scholarship.. This is a demonstration of my argument in the column.
I don't know these people in depth, but what are the innovations, say, in the Inbal brothers? Weren't they the ones who founded the organization "Emerit"? It doesn't seem to be a particularly innovative organization... (perhaps in relation to part of the primitive Haredi world that prohibits the practice of science at all)
Sounds a bit reckless and assumes what is wanted, doesn't it? ” I don't know who x is, but what did he innovate? (After all, he's Haredi, and they don't have innovations)”. And no, they are not related to values (that's their father). And no, values don't deal with science. But other than that, your message is perfect.
Now I suddenly realize that you don't know anyone on the list, not just the scoundrels. Truly one of the most impressive attitudes of ignorance towards the determined I've encountered.
You are forgetting a very important aspect of "fences" in the Haredi view.
A fence is not a Haredi invention, and they have already brought it in and also turned it into an inclusion, such as the moksha.
The Haredi community, and I am specifically talking about the Lithuanian community (I am interested in your opinion on the Sephardi community and the path of Rabbi Ovadia), was built on the struggle against the Enlightenment movement, which drew many of its good sons out of the path of Judaism, and therefore fences and gatherings were created within the walls of the yeshiva.
Now you can come and say that even though the need came from something fundamental, this does not mean that the tools that were removed as a result do not affect the ability of a Torah scholar to make decisions based on the rest of the wisdom that exists today.
So the Haredi view says that the wisdom of the Torah contains all the rest of the wisdom.
Just as Rashi sat in a cave for 13 years and wrote the Zohar, in which he also included statements about the structure of the world, even though he did not have the tools to learn these insights.
The well-known saying that God looked at the Torah and built the world, meaning that deep within the Torah are all the secrets of the universe.
I recently heard a senior professor talk about medical questions that arose during the war that were addressed to Rabbi Eliashev Zetzel, who did not study medicine, and he gave them laws and ways to deal with certain situations that he did not want to detail, which are still used today.
Therefore, for the Haredi view, a disadvantage in not learning foreign wisdom does not impair the ability of a Torah scholar to rule on related issues.
On the other hand, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, for example, was more open in this aspect, probably also because the Mizrahi public did not close off from the wave of enlightenment and is therefore more open-minded, and this really led to a dispute in halachic matters that stemmed from a lack of technical knowledge, such as whether it is permissible to light a light on a holiday according to Rabbi Mashash, who permits it because he did not correctly understand how a switch works, and Rabbi Ovadia forbids it after examining the mechanics.
I agree that the response is really not something to say the least.
Regarding science, I meant to say that values is a kind of dialogue organization that uses apologetics regarding scientific questions, but I really don't know much about it, so it's better not to talk about it.
In any case, regarding the list that the rabbi brought regarding innovators in the Haredi sector, with the exception of the Schreiber brothers (who, as mentioned, I don't know their method personally in depth, but I've heard about them from all sorts of acquaintances and read about them on Wikipedia), whose innovations deal mainly with the academic aspect, the Inbal brothers whose innovations are more on the intellectual aspect. Are there innovations/openness of thought among the Haredi that are not found in the (broad) Datl community already?
For example, Rabbi Feibelson is considered innovative and revolutionary in the Haredi community (some boycotted him for saying that the verse "eye for an eye" was meant literally and the Sages demanded it differently)
To the best of my knowledge, values and ratios (both in the Inbal family's activities) tend to be less pseudoscientific than dialogue.
Rabbi Uriah Inbal certainly has innovations in the form of study, and perhaps his brothers do too, but I am less familiar with them (he has books on Yore Deah and Chosheen Mishpat, I don't know if there are only "accepted" innovations there or also innovations in the form of study).
A few comments, not always important:
A. Strictness in what characterizes Judaism – probably its value as a measure of adherence to Judaism is greater than strictness in matters of morality and ethics (which can be a Christian characteristic just as much as a Jew).
B. Regarding the exponential process – just to be precise: You will be asked whether the Gm’ did not know, and this is a simple explanation. Perhaps it is implied in her words that until you see the process clearly, the case is not defined as an epidemic. Your real answer is that the Gm’ was not aware of this either, and this is similar to cases that are now known to have been fixed and once did not know.
C. I understand that there is also a side to prohibiting Yahud on Zoom (whether it is a decree or an independent prohibition)?
D. It is very doubtful whether the leaders really think that in times of trouble we will recruit Avrechim from Brisk and put them on a plane. The considerations are completely different and are symbolized much more in the stories of Yankela and Fritz. There is no option to help Fritz.
E. It is very true that disunity and ignorance damage the quality of the ruling and the quality of the person, but those who claim that distortions like the one you mentioned are less likely to take root forever than the mirror image of rabbis who are naive, charismatic, and ignorant of halakhic law. This forgetting of the Torah will be much more difficult to correct. In addition, the damage will be damage that concerns more the religious rabbinate than the human damage that exists in the Haredi system.
F. After all, the basis of greatness in the Torah, I think, according to you too, is an excellent and wise mastery of the halakhic material.
A. It is not a question of what is important at all. It is also not true that the particular is necessarily more important. And in general, to the maxim that it is better to fail in free love than in free hatred, I usually respond that it is better not to fail in both.
B. It is clear that the Gemara did not know either. But I do not blame it for this. No one did. But a modern-day arbiter and leader should be familiar with the existing knowledge and act accordingly. Even if he adopts your interpretation of the Gemara in order to act correctly.
C. Very doubtful. There is no practical concern here, and in my opinion, even if it is a self-prohibition, it is far from a prohibition.
D. The fact that such arguments are raised is sufficient even if that is not what really motivates them.
E. See on the dichotomy in section A.
F. Ibid.
This sounds utopian. Do you really know any rabbis who meet the criteria you presented in the article? (Real) hands-on in a variety of professions, at a level that is not the layman like the rest of us, a deep and conscious understanding of the ways of preaching, experience with all sorts of contemporary phenomena? The questions you presented sound like the demand from the sages of the Sanhedrin, which I would also be satisfied with if it were realistic (knowing 70 languages?! And when do you study Torah? After all, studying takes a long time)
When defining greatness, one determines the relevant axes. This does not mean that there is someone who meets all the criteria completely. Even if the criterion were classical Torah knowledge, there is no one who knows everything.
Two supplementary comments:
1. I would also add the fact that yeshivots do not bother to check versions when studying the Gemara or Maimonides, which often eliminates a lot of idle chatter.
2. This approach to Torah study is, in my opinion, part of the general Lithuanian approach that the Torah (especially the Gemara) is something beyond us, something divine-heavenly that is beyond human perception. And so, it is precisely this disconnect that sometimes arises from this way of study that you present that contributes even more to this perception. There is also the matter of the general alienation from the ways of academia (which in my opinion also prevents the pursuit of versions), but I do not think it is the main thing. This perception that the Torah is so heavenly and is not like other wisdom (for some reason, by the way) makes Torah study more expensive in their eyes. I once heard a saying that Sh’ Chaim took the batons out of the prohibitions and the permitted and only introduced laws. This abstraction and this detachment, which for others might lead to alienation, for them is what elevates the Torah to a miracle. The Torah is above all, it is the one that dictates reality, and God forbid that the Torah should be extinguished or should correspond in one way or another with reality. It is the one that preceded the world (“Look into the Torah and create Alma”). And so, whenever you see a conflict between the two, – reality is nullified in comparison to the Torah. And therefore it is also inappropriate to bring in external methods outside the Gemara to analyze it. Incidentally, they later project this approach onto morality as well (like the saying of the Gér”z about the fact that precisely because the Torah forbade ‘Thou shalt not murder’ murder brings harm to the world, etc.), but that is another matter.
I found a quote by Rabbi Edelstein that certainly illustrates this point:
“And when there is an explanation in the Gemara or in the Rishonim that is not understood, it is not a shortcoming on our part, for understanding the Gemara and the Rishonim is not our understanding, and not everything belongs to understanding, and someone who thinks that he understands all the explanations in the Gemara has a very crooked head, that he does not belong to everything. Therefore, when we do not understand the explanation of the Gemara, we should not dwell on it much, as if it seemed against simplicity, it is not surprising, because we are not Amoraim, and dwelling on understanding difficult explanations of the Gemara is not for us, and this is how all the great ones grew, and whoever has a clear mind sees that there are many things that are not understood, this is correct and faithful advice, for anyone who wants to be a scholar.”
Thank you Rabbi.
A story (from the first vessel) that happened like this.
A brain surgeon who was required to perform a medical procedure on a person's brain on Shabbat, and when asked about it by an ultra-Orthodox Rabbi, replied that it should be performed “with a change”.
When there is no brain – there is no brain.
I think that sums up the Rabbi's post.
I don't believe it. There is a limit.
In the Rabbi's favor, we got the hint. We are convinced that you are the greatest of our generation.
And regardless of the column, you wrote “and the evidence for this is the many errors found in the Talmud, and not just in scientific and mathematical matters”. Do you perhaps have sources you can direct me to?
If you understood that, then I'm done. From here you can only go down.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://files.daf-yomi.com/files/bookfiles/hayedihot-hamadahiyot/hayedihot-hamadahiyot.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifqq_rkKyKAxWJTKQEHVD7HxwQFnoECBIQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw3e9rAgwdGBzcVK1J1bEmlO
Shalom Rabbi.
When you gave examples of the shortcomings of the Haredi posak, you gave several examples. One was about a pandemic and then examples about the needs of women and the needs of yeshiva students. I don’t really understand why recognizing the need is supposed to influence the halakha. Recognizing the reality is supposed to influence in order to distinguish between different types of reality in relation to the same halakhic criterion. But why is recognizing the need supposed to influence the main body of the halakha? It is at most a reason for votes after the halakha has been clarified in the possible case, but it certainly should not be a consideration of halakhic clothing (I think I also saw that you wrote similar things on the issue of conversion)
See my article on halakhic rulings in extreme situations that I referenced in the column.
An incredibly arrogant column. It seems to me that according to the line of thinking that appears here, the columnist will even dare to claim that the Haredim will not be able to become skilled fighter pilots in two weeks. These are difficult times for Israel and we will soon need many excellent Torah scholars in the cockpit on their way to Iran. And where will our excellent pilots come from if not from Ponibiz and Mir?
Yesterday's unbelievable is today's reality (Overton Window)
By the way, if you don't believe me, I'll just say that during one of the rounds in the women's department in medical school, there was a woman who the doctors said had to give birth early and therefore needed to start induction tomorrow. During a visit the next morning, she said that she spoke to the "Rebbe" and he told her not to induce and that "it would be fine." I don't remember what happened to the woman and her baby in the end, but they say "there is no one from the land who is a Hasidic" because if he is from the land, he is the Rebbe. It's tried and true.
You mean the first tool that invented the story?
Every mistake of the Rishonim and Achronim can be considered a mistake, but it is customary to accept this as a lack of understanding, – and I found in the name of the Rishonim that anything that is not a halachic conclusion in the Gemara can be a mistake, because the main thing is the conclusions of the things, – although it is clear that this is not the accepted way, but on the Michi website we are talking about the fact that for him it is accepted, and it also has previous references.
It is not good to write “We understood the hint” – Every path and opinion of every person – If he truly believes in it, – he also follows it, but really Rabbi Michi is not suspected of glorifying himself, – For that he should have gone at least with a frock or something like that. [This is despite my criticism of many of his opinions]
The Haredi definition of Torah greatness is in relation to the Torah greats who have been in Lithuania in recent generations, and the Lithuanian definition of Torah greatness is based on the Gra as a model of genius and greatness in Torah. The question is not about the Haredim, the Haredim, and the Da'talim, but rather why, out of dozens of ways of learning, the Lithuanian Lomde's has taken over the yeshivahs in recent generations, and is this a sign of greatness or smallness?
Simply because the Lithuanians established the yeshiva in their current form, by Rabbi Chaim of Volzin, a student of the HaGar.
According to the rabbi, was Rabbi Schach the greatest of his generation?
What is the actual question and why is it being issued?
For a woman's child
This is what happened to me on the way back from work as a result of reading the column: A short film summary. Reuven is a Lithuanian ultra-Orthodox scholar who studies Torah from morning to night. He has never left the kollel where he studied. In the past, he tried to find various teaching positions in small yeshivahs and other kollelhs, but failed and remained as an avrech in the kollelh. His neighbor Rabbi Shimon is a rabbi in a hesder yeshivah. He is a lesser scholar than Rabbi Reuven, but he managed to win the position of rabbi of education in a hesder yeshivah due to his rhetorical skills and charisma. The days were the days of the “Iron Swords” war, in the neighborhood shared by Reuven and Shimon, a soldier was killed in Gaza. During the seven days, many comforters arrived, including Reuven and Shimon. When Reuven arrived to comfort, he got caught up in a side conversation of comforters who reviled the ultra-Orthodox community for not participating in the IDF”s war effort. The next day, Reuven returns to the kollel, where a young avrecher comes to him with a difficult question in the Gemara. Reuven tries with all his might to analyze and ponder the issue, but has difficulty reaching a solution. He returns home and is dejected when he meets Shimon, who says that he has just returned from the hospital from visiting a student who was injured in the war. Reuven is angry inside and asks Shimon to accompany him home and help him think about a Gemara issue. Shimon explains that he is busy and wants to postpone until tomorrow, but Reuven begs him. They enter the ma'md, which is Reuven's place of study. The light goes out, Reuven hits Shimon so hard that he faints. Reuven sits him down on a chair and ties him up. Shimon wakes up and starts screaming. Reuven says that if he doesn't study with him, he will kill him. Shimon is horrified, and begins to cry and begs for mercy. Reuven screams at him to shut up. Reuven begins to lecture on the Gemara and the investigation with the questions about it, and asks Shimon to excuse him. Shimon has difficulty thinking, Reuven screams at him that he is a stupid rascal who doesn't know how to study, and how did he even become a Rabbi? He immediately continues to attack him and the twisted society that is Hellenizing. Shimon cries and is afraid that Reuven will murder him. Reuven screams at him and says that he should think carefully about the Gemara if he wants to live. Shimon asks him to read the Gemara to him slowly. Reuven reads the Gemara to him, Shimon listens to the words of the Gemara and asks Reuven to read Rashi to him as well. Reuven finishes reading to him. Shimon closes his eyes and begins to lecture on the entire Gemara with Rashi's words and solves all of Reuven's questions, while Shimon lectures, he slowly frees himself from the shackles. And at the end of the speech, he gets up from his chair and runs away from the court, while Reuven lies on the floor, moaning in tears.
Regarding the inability to rule when disconnected from reality. Although you wrote that it is only in situations of extreme unfamiliarity, I actually identify with the phenomenon even when it comes to rabbis who leave the house and know a little about reality. When I left the yeshiva (the Heder yeshiva, to be precise) I felt that I was not receiving a satisfactory answer to halakhic questions from the rabbis I consulted with. They simply did not truly understand the reality I was talking about and what need I was coming from (for example, although it was not exactly a halakhic ruling - when I went on mixed military service that required intensive work with girls around the clock, including joint projects, the rabbi told me to cut off contact with women. To be polite but distant and not to speak to them beyond a very basic need). Are you also familiar with the phenomenon in the Zionist-religious world?
definitely.
On the 1st of Kislev, 2019
Two comments:
A. Rabbi Kanievsky ztzel spoke about opening educational institutions in a way that allowed grocery stores to open. In small groups, and while maintaining space and ventilation and masks. The logic behind this is that children's education is no less an existential necessity than bread and milk, and their wandering around without a framework of educational supervision – may increase the risk of infection.
B. It could perhaps be said that a posk does not need knowledge of wisdom. Perhaps on the contrary, to the extent that he comes without prior knowledge – he will listen attentively to the expert. And sometimes it is precisely arriving without prior knowledge – that allows him to challenge the expert with questions that the expert did not think of.
Best regards, Fishel
So why did the Sanhedrin need to know all the languages (e.g. Mordechai the Jew), and all the possible wisdoms in order to discuss as explained in the Sanhedrin laws? And it is true that a dayan is different from a mere halachic arbiter, but the grief and sense of necessity belong to both.
On the 18th of Kislev, 555
To David, greetings,
In ancient times, the amount of information was small, and it was possible to think that one person could encompass all the ‘Seven Wisdoms’. Even the Torah ‘cabinet of books’ has grown immeasurably. It is impossible for one person to encompass everything, and therefore in all areas of knowledge there is a need for specialization and specialization.
The more a person masters his field – he enriches and enriches his colleagues who are experts in other fields with his expertise. And his knowledge of how difficult it is to thoroughly encompass his field of study – will lead him to appreciate the expertise of his colleagues in their fields of knowledge and to listen carefully to their opinions.
Indeed, great poskim – We seek to receive a professional opinion from the ’greatest expert’, we ask the questions in order to understand reality in depth, in order to issue a ‘true judgment’ ‘truth’ from the side of Halacha; ‘truth’ from the side of the study of reality.
Best regards, Fish”l
Helps to increase the degree of humility, which leads a person to be a wise man who learns from everyone. Therefore, the Chas explains that the law was ruled as follows: Even though the Bish were "sharpeners of the tongue," they would "change the Bish's words before their own," thus proving that they listened carefully to the reasoning and considerations of those who disagreed with them.
Best regards, Fishel
It is worth quoting the teaching in the Book of Mitzvot, Mitzvah, 1911, which confirms the point that the great men of Israel should be at least somewhat knowledgeable in wisdom.
And there is no one who stands in the Sanhedrin (Ibid. 17:1; Ibid. Sanhedrin 5:21; 12:1) among the great and the small, except men who are wise and versed in the wisdom of the Torah, and who also know the end of the field of wisdom, such as healings and fortune-telling, fortune-telling, fortune-telling, and the ways of the soothsayers, and the sorcerers, and the sorcerers, as May they be able to judge the people in all these ways if they need to.
Regarding the Gemara on the plague of Hadar, it goes without saying that our sages did not know how to calculate and how quickly a plague could spread. Simply put, in their time, when someone died, they could not diagnose why it happened, and only the accumulation of dead people indicates that there is a plague here. It is not like today, where you can tell from just one hospitalization that a certain virus has entered the country (I heard the explanation of the Gemara during the Corona era from a doctor who was a Torah scholar).
Indeed, there is no need to say that our sages did not know mathematics. It is not because of any need. They simply did not know.
For some reason, it seems to you that in diagnostics and modern medicine they were weak but in modern mathematics they were cannons.
In your opinion, what caused quite wise people such as R’ Akiva Eiger and others to treat themselves like wall mosses in relation to several generations before them, both in wisdom and in other virtues, – is this excessive humility and modesty and nothing more, or is it only towards Torah greatness and not wisdom in general?
Proximity to the source does indeed give an advantage to previous generations. Incidentally, in religious education it is very difficult to argue against the assumption that the first were like humans and we like donkeys. There are many who have said this about all fields, which shows even more how disconnected this thesis is from reality.
There is a difference between mathematics and modern mathematics in that it can ultimately be learned using tools that existed in ancient times, because it is ultimately in the mind, – but modern medicine is built on research and experiments, and technological tools that did not exist.
Nice division. At the next kiddush in the synagogue you can say it. If anything, maybe they also have something to say about Fermat's or Goldbach's conjecture?
Even if they didn't talk about it explicitly, because they didn't deal with it, they could have easily come to it, just as surely Rabbi Michi would agree that Einstein knew what to say about the Goldbach and Fermat conjecture if he had lingered over it a little [assuming he didn't deal with it, I don't know]. – And like the innovations in physics that Einstein or the Honorable Rabbi didn't deal with, but “he has it” – G-d says with Chazal that one who is wise in many subjects, [with available tools] will solve them easily.
Regarding the kiddush, I try to connect it to the parshas of Yeshiva, – perhaps in what the brothers despised Joseph and in the end he became king…
Apologies, I didn't see the column on mathematics in halacha before, and I don't have the knowledge/time/mind to calculate the Mishnah in mikvaot using the latest tools, – and it is certainly appropriate to ask experts and broaden one's horizons – I don't disagree with that,
Nevertheless, I still think that this is a mathematical innovation as a kind of technological innovation, and not a deficiency in the wisdom of the sages.
Of course. That's what I wrote there explicitly.
For some reason, you tend to attribute ridiculous thoughts to your readers that are not theirs.
Correct (adding a ’)
This is extreme ignorance
I didn't read the article because I returned from abroad yesterday and I barely have time to swallow, but I thought it would be interesting to the rabbi and the members of the blog "The beating for the sin of the Rosh Yeshiva of the Hesder" and the leader of the religious community for financial matters who even received an award from the state for his work on the matter.
Here are some gems from his words and the rest can be seen in the link I attached below.
In his words, the rabbi wrote: "Instead of beating for sin together as a community and admitting that for years in the past we sent our sons to mass (!) suicide. It sounds extreme, but the sages said it before me - "The greater the sin, the greater the killing."
Who told us that it is possible to send our sons into a secular atmosphere where "what will the son do and not sin?" Who took responsibility for sending boys for many years (the situation is much better today) to a mixed secular atmosphere that”what I love about them is Keret”, when hormones are working overtime, when they are a dangerous and vulnerable minority? This is when Chazal guided us and we pray not to bring us into temptation and humiliation.
Who encouraged with a clear conscience recruitment into Sayeret Matkal or Shayetet 13 when the percentage of secularization was very high? I remember soldiers who returned with a complaint and in tears and wondered how I, as the head of a Heder yeshiva, do not mind sending them to Modi'in, when sometimes there is serious friction with girls and with secularization. They asked why we were not warned of very difficult attempts”
Maybe we too need to examine ourselves whether we succumbed to covert secular coercion in rape when we knowingly entered irresponsibly?
https://www.tv2000.co.il/news/41686
And this is a link to the Kiryat Malachi Rosh Yeshivah about his beating for the above sin
https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/so0s68
You talk about recruitment, how does that relate to openness in learning?
I prefaced by saying that I didn't read the article, but I saw this title at the beginning of it:
“In one of the more embarrassing threads here on the site regarding the recruitment of Haredim”
In terms of content, things are correct. But regarding the realistic analysis, I am no longer sure. Why doesn't R’ Asher Weiss meet this criterion (I heard him mention Shakespeare)? Rabbi Yaakov Ariel? Apparently, Rabbi Dov Lior also has some familiarity with the external world (although I don't really know). These are two (maybe three) central conservative poskim, do they really not deserve the title of Torah greats in your opinion? (I don't mean to say that they have authority, only in this context of the discussion)
Who said that all of these don't meet these criteria? I didn't refer to any specific person and I didn't write anything sweeping. I'm not saying that they do either. I don't usually give grades to a specific person except in exceptional cases.
As a young Haredi man and familiar with the public, it seems to me that there is a certain development that the Rabbi is not familiar with - Haredi thought, especially Ramesh Shapira and R.I. Hutner, who defined the need for Torah as a certain Aristotelianism of adherence to divine wisdom (I wonder what the Rabbi thinks about this), and this pretty much bypasses the problem that the Rabbi raised at least in the apartheid point of each person because there is no interest in being a great person in relation to the world, but rather a personal interest and the aspiration is only to learn Torah.
And as for what will be considered great in the eyes of the public, the same logic works here too, no matter how successful a person is, he has no authority as long as he does not meet the Torah requirements of a great person, and if he also understands world affairs, then that is excellent and indeed quite a few rabbis were eulogized at their funerals for understanding the younger generation, etc. (It is possible to reject those who were not subject to the Speedo for being immersed only in Torah…) But without them being great, their authority is given to specific ink and not general.
Personally, it seems to me that the problems are more the cynicism of the system and the conservatism that preserves itself to the point of ridiculous claims, or inventions of authority that have no basis. (Implicit in the article)
Hello Rabbi Avraham,
I read your post titled ‘What is greatness in Torah’, but I didn't quite understand its conclusion:
Because it seems to follow from the Rabbi's words that there are no Torah greats here or there. Those who are considered Torah greats among the Haredim lack general education and common sense, while the rabbis of the Mazorachnikim are not at the proper level of scholarship. (I assume that the Rabbi would agree that today even those who are considered the most learned in the national religious community still do not reach their ankles in the field of pure scholarship of many hundreds of Haredi scholars who are not even considered the greats of the generation among the Haredim)
Hello.
It's not binary and indeed no one is perfect. Each and their own virtues. As I wrote, the weight of knowledge in our time is less, and in my opinion the virtues of those with education and common sense are more important.