A Broad View of the Conversion Controversies (Column 469)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In recent months, following a ruling by Rabbi Melamed on the subject, the discussion about conversion has been renewed, particularly regarding the acceptance of commandments (kabbalat mitzvot) in conversion. I was asked here for my opinion, and I said I would respond in a column dedicated to the topic of conversion. In the discussion that followed that question, various sources were brought that seemingly waive acceptance of commandments in conversion. In my view, there is no such source, and I will clarify this below.
Background
On Shabbat Parashat Vayikra, Rabbi Melamed published a halakhic ruling in which he argued that conversion should not be ruled out in the absence of acceptance of commandments (i.e., that a conversion should be allowed when, in the court’s assessment, the convert is expected from the outset to live as a “traditional” Jew). He writes that although most decisors oppose this, there are quite a few who support it (at least claim it is valid post facto), and therefore, in his opinion, the state may recognize such conversions, certainly in exigent circumstances.
As expected (and he certainly anticipated this), those who have been criticizing him in recent months immediately pounced and used these remarks to prove their claims about him. Against the detractors rose the defenders, demonstrating with “signs and wonders” that he is correct and that this is simply part of a broader persecution against him. I have already written on the site (see column 410) that although in most of the questions under debate with him I tend to Rabbi Melamed’s side, I do not at all agree that most of the critiques are illegitimate or that they amount to bans and ostracism. In my eyes, most are reasonable and substantive—even though I disagree with most of them.
Even in the latest debate about conversion, amid the heated rhetoric one can indeed find substantive treatments. See, for example, the critique of Rabbi Tavdi here and the defense by Rabbi Schatz here, who go through the sources Rabbi Melamed cited one by one and analyze them. Each one’s starting point is clear, but neither of them rants; rather, they present interpretive arguments to support their position. Nevertheless, despite the substantive nature of these two responses, I cannot avoid pointing out a hidden one-sidedness. Note that the debate rages over each and every source Rabbi Melamed brought. Rabbi Tavdi criticizes Rabbi Melamed and shows that he erred in his interpretation of every source he cited, while Rabbi Schatz, by contrast, explains that he was right in each of them. How does a debate arise over every single source, with each side enlisting all of them to its side? In an ordinary case I would expect each to lean on certain sources, say that others are debatable, and still others run against his view, and in the end decide, with reasons, how to rule among the sources. A pattern in which all sources point my way smells tendentious. However, as I will explain below, there is a possibility that this reflects not partisanship but simply misunderstanding and confusion.
General Direction
I was asked what I think of Rabbi Melamed’s ruling on conversion. People wondered whether the “persecution” is justified or not. You all surely know the claim that just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you. But note that, to the same extent, the claim that people tend to persecute you does not mean such persecutions are never justified. On my first reading, I thought that here Rabbi Melamed missed by a wide margin. Later I realized things are more complicated. He likely missed, but perhaps not by quite so much.
In my opinion, Rabbi Melamed’s remarks—as well as the critique and defense of him, detractors and defenders alike—suffer from several conceptual confusions that greatly impede the discussion. No wonder both sides read the same sources and understand them (as I noted, each one of them) in opposite ways. I think the concepts are not clearly distinguished for the disputants, and that is the main cause of the confusion. My view of Rabbi Melamed’s position on the conversion issue depends on what he himself meant, and that is hard to understand from his words. The question that arose on the site on this matter and the brief discussion after it clarified for me that the matter indeed requires sharpening and organization.
In this column I wanted to disperse the fog a bit and present my principled position on conversion. I presented it at length in my essay “Gates of Conversion: On Coercion and Good Intentions,” and here I will focus mainly on two points from it. In my assessment, once the fog is dispersed it is likely that both sides will be able to agree to this thesis, at least to some extent. If the debate was born of confusion, perhaps removing the confusion can remove the debate.
A Principled Stance and Methodological Rules
To set the framework, I will begin at the end. My position consists of two claims, one stringent and the other lenient:
- Stringency — In my view there is no room whatsoever to compromise on acceptance of commandments in conversion. One who calls to abolish it, or claims it is unnecessary, is plainly mistaken. Moreover, to the best of my knowledge there is no source that says so—but that is not very important. Even if such a source existed, it would be wrong.
- Leniency — The content of that acceptance of commandments is minimal. It is very different from what people usually sketch.
Before getting into details, I will preface that this double picture is very typical. I once heard from Rabbi Blumenzweig (formerly head of the Hesder Yeshiva in Yeruham) that one who is very stringent in a given matter will usually be very lenient in it from other angles. The example he gave was the Chazon Ish’s approach to the sabbatical year (shemittah). He was very stringent about the heter mechirah, but that forced him to adopt far-reaching halakhic leniencies so that people could actually live according to his stringent approach (something not typical of other decisors who do not trouble themselves to check whether their stringencies are practically implementable). Regarding conversion, since that essay I have been considered very stringent because of the first claim. But I do not state the second claim (the lenient one) merely for reasons of feasibility and practicality. I truly believe both claims are correct as a matter of law. I am, in principle, opposed to changing halakhah in exigent circumstances, except where there exists, in principle, a halakhic path that allows it—and then one should point to it also in non-exigent circumstances (there are rare exceptions, not for now).
I will close the introduction with another methodological rule. As is known, in my eyes precedents carry very little weight. Building a halakhic discussion on citations of the Rishonim and Aharonim, and certainly of contemporary decisors, is second-order decision-making, which I strongly oppose. The matter should be discussed from primary sources (which have formal authority) and through conceptual analysis. Only then may one bring sources from great decisors and evaluate them on their merits. A discussion that suffices with citing so-and-so’s view, especially if he is a contemporary scholar, is of encyclopedic value, not halakhic discussion. If I have my own position, then with all due respect to contemporary scholars and scholars of previous generations, I am supposed to adhere to it. Of course I will take their words into account and examine them seriously before forming a stance, but in the end what matters is my conclusion.
Still, I will qualify this approach in the case of conversion. My essay bore the subtitle “On Coercion and Good Intentions,” and I argued there that although the intentions of Rabbi Druckman’s conversion apparatus were likely positive, their actions were coercive. A person who has his own halakhic approach can and should act according to it. But in conversion, which has ramifications for the entire public, the situation is different. One who has a lenient approach to conversion that is not accepted by the vast majority of decisors cannot convert people according to his view, for he thereby turns them into Jews and imposes his stance on the entire public. In such a matter, a relatively broad consensus is required (even if not wall-to-wall agreement—that would be “law for the messianic era”). These remarks, of course, apply also to my own position, and I think that the position I present here in fact enjoys a very broad consensus. The conceptual analysis I will present can lead one who discusses the matter to realize that he is mixing layers of discourse and that his true position resembles mine. But of course, if I fail to convince a broad group of decisors, then those who hold this view must not act coercively and convert people according to it.
Is Acceptance of Commandments in Conversion Necessary—and Why?
The Talmud in Bekhorot 30b states:
“Our Rabbis taught: One who comes to accept the matters of fellowship except for one matter—we do not accept him. A gentile who comes to accept the words of Torah except for one matter—we do not accept him. R. Yose b. R. Yehudah says: even [if he rejects] one fine point of the words of the Scribes.”
That is, one who comes to convert must accept the system in its entirety. If he accepts it except for one matter, he is not a convert. From the Talmud’s language one might understand that we do not accept him ab initio but post facto he is a convert; however, the accepted understanding among decisors and commentators is that he is not a convert at all. It seems to me that this is also the plain meaning of the Talmud. “We do not accept him” means we do not treat him as a fellow or a Jew (see Rashi there, s.v. mekablin, and Maimonides, Hilkhot Metamei Mishkav 10:2).
Here an important point arises regarding the omission by the decisors. Both Maimonides and the Shulchan Aruch present a conversion process comprising three components: circumcision (for a man), immersion, and the offering of blood (a sacrifice, when the Temple stood). Both omit the dictum we saw about one who accepts “except for one matter.” Maimonides is all the more puzzling, since he brings the law about acceptance into the fellowship but omits the law about acceptance for a convert. Seemingly, for some hidden reason the decisors understood that this dictum is not the halakhic ruling, and from here some have questioned the need for acceptance of commandments in conversion. Indeed, in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh De’ah 268:1, in describing the process of conversion, the author mentions circumcision and immersion but not acceptance of commandments. So too Maimonides, Hilkhot Issurei Bi’ah 13:1:
“Through three things Israel entered the covenant: circumcision, immersion, and an offering.”
Further on there he deals with the order between circumcision and immersion and which of them is indispensable, but there is no reference to acceptance of commandments. However, in 13:17 he writes:
“A convert whom they did not investigate, or to whom they did not inform the commandments and their punishments, and he was circumcised and immersed before three laymen—he is a convert; even if it was known that he converted for some [ulterior] matter—since he was circumcised and immersed, he has left the category of gentiles. We are suspicious of him until his righteousness becomes clear. And even if he reverted and worshiped idols, he is like a sinning Israelite—his betrothal is valid, and one must return his lost property. Since he immersed he became like an Israelite; therefore Samson and Solomon maintained their wives, even though their secret was revealed.”
Here mention is made of informing him of the commandments and their punishments—but this is not indispensable.
By contrast, in the Shulchan Aruch 268:2–3, the author does speak of informing him of certain commandments:
“2. When someone comes to convert, we say to him: ‘What did you see that you came to convert? Do you not know that Israel at this time are afflicted, oppressed, and harried, and that troubles come upon them?’ If he says: ‘I know, and I am unworthy to join them,’ we accept him immediately, and we inform him of the fundamentals of the religion—that God is one and the prohibition of idolatry—and we elaborate with him on this matter. And we inform him of some of the lighter commandments and some of the more stringent ones, and we inform him of some of the punishments for the commandments, and we say to him: ‘Before you came to this state, if you ate forbidden fat you were not liable to karet; if you desecrated the Sabbath you were not liable to stoning; but now, if you eat forbidden fat you are liable to karet; if you desecrate the Sabbath you are liable to stoning.’ We do not overburden him nor are we exacting with him. And just as we inform him of the punishments, so we inform him of the reward of the commandments, and we tell him that by performing these commandments he merits the life of the World to Come, and that there is no perfectly righteous person except one who is wise and performs these commandments and knows them. And we say to him: ‘Know that the World to Come is reserved only for the righteous, and they are Israel; and that what you see—that Israel are in distress in this world—is for their good, for they cannot receive an abundance of good in this world like idolaters, lest their hearts become haughty and they go astray and lose the reward of the World to Come; and the Holy One, blessed be He, does not bring upon them an abundance of calamities so that they not be lost. Rather, all the idolaters will perish, and they stand.’ And we elaborate on this to endear [the commandments] to him. If he accepts, we circumcise him immediately and wait until he heals completely; afterwards we immerse him in a proper immersion without any interposition… and three [scholars] stand over him and inform him of some of the lighter commandments and some of the more stringent ones a second time, while he is standing in the water… and he recites the blessing over the immersion after he rises from the water, and once he immerses he is like an Israelite; if he reverts to his old ways, he is a sinning Israelite, and if he betroths, his betrothal is valid.”
“3. All the matters of the convert—whether informing him of the commandments (to accept them), or the circumcision, or the immersion—must be in the presence of three who are qualified to judge, and by day… This is only ab initio; but post facto, if he was not circumcised or immersed except before two [or relatives], or at night, even if he did not immerse for the sake of conversion (e.g., a man immersed because of a seminal emission or a woman immersed for menstruation), he is a convert and is permitted to marry an Israelite woman—except for acceptance of the commandments, which is indispensable if it was not by day and before three. According to the Rif and the Rambam, even post facto if he circumcised or immersed before two or at night, it is indispensable and he is forbidden to an Israelite woman; but if he married an Israelite woman and had a son from her, we do not invalidate him.”
That is, there is a process of clarifying why the person has come to convert; there is also informing him of some commandments and the fundamentals of the religion, and reward and punishment (even twice); and the convert himself is meant to accept this (“if he accepts, we circumcise him immediately…”). Moreover, at the start of §3 it is brought that informing him of the commandments must also be done before a court qualified to judge (and unlike circumcision and immersion, here it is even indispensable), meaning that in the author’s view this is an essential and indispensable part of conversion. True, this is “some commandments” and not all, and it does not state here that if he fails to accept one matter the conversion is void. Thus there is a requirement of informing him of commandments and accepting them; the only question is the required scope.
The Meaning of Omitting Acceptance of Commandments
Let us assume for the discussion that acceptance of commandments was entirely omitted by these decisors, or at most mentioned by them in passing. What does that mean? Can we infer from this that it is not an essential part of conversion? In my view, certainly not. On the contrary: the omission stems from the opposite reason—acceptance of commandments is the essence of conversion, not one more detail in the procedure.
For example, in the laws of acquisition in the Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat) you will not find a rule that one must intend to acquire. You will find the rules and details of acts of acquisition and their precise intentions, but not the very need for an intent to acquire. Why? Because the intent to acquire is not part of the procedure of acquisition; it is the essence of the transactional act. One who wants to acquire consults the Shulchan Aruch for how to do so. Therefore the author speaks to someone who wants to acquire and guides him how to do it. One who does not want to acquire is not addressed by these rules. There is no need to say that if you lifted some object without intent to acquire it, you did not acquire it. Hence there is no point or need to write in the Shulchan Aruch a legal requirement that a person must want to acquire, because this is not actually needed. If you do not want—don’t. But then, if you do not want it, you will of course not acquire.
The same applies to conversion. The laws of conversion address one who wants to convert and prescribe what he must do for his conversion to be valid. One who does not want to convert has violated nothing—but he is not a convert. The assumption is that the desire to convert means a desire to join the servants of God who are obligated in His commandments, in the well-known words of Rav Saadiah Gaon: “Our nation is a nation only by virtue of its Torahs.” Therefore acceptance of commandments need not be mentioned as one more detail in the conversion procedure. It is the essence of conversion, and one who lacks it is not performing conversion at all. These laws do not speak to him. He is like one who picks up an object in his yard without intending to acquire it.
Indeed, this is explicit in Maimonides’ language. After he describes that Israel in the wilderness underwent circumcision, immersion, and sacrifice as a process of conversion, in 13:4 he writes about future generations:
“Likewise for future generations: when a gentile wishes to enter the covenant and to seek shelter under the wings of the Divine Presence and accepts upon himself the yoke of the Torah, he needs circumcision, immersion, and an offering; and if she is a woman—immersion and offering, as it is said, ‘As you, so the stranger.’ Just as you [entered] with circumcision, immersion, and offering, so too the convert for future generations with circumcision, immersion, and offering.”
Here “and accepts upon himself the yoke of the Torah” suddenly appears—but then he immediately reverts to describing the process with only three components: circumcision, immersion, and offering. What does this mean? His words are clear: when a gentile wishes to enter the covenant, i.e., to seek shelter under the wings of the Divine Presence and to accept the yoke of the Torah and commandments, the way to do so is by circumcision, immersion, and offering. Acceptance of the yoke of the Torah is not part of the procedure of conversion but the intention that animates the entire matter. If the gentile wants to accept the yoke of the Torah, the conversion procedure is what he must do. From here, conversion means acceptance of the yoke of the Torah. This is likely also the meaning of Maimonides at the beginning of these laws: “Through three things Israel entered the covenant,” and he specifies: circumcision, immersion, and offering. Entry into the covenant with the Almighty is a commitment to the yoke of Torah and commandments, and the way to perform it is by the conversion procedure.
It is therefore no wonder that Maimonides and the Shulchan Aruch omit the law of a convert who accepts “except for one matter.” If he is not accepting the yoke of the Torah but choosing for himself what to take and what to leave, he is not accepting a yoke—so he is not a convert. Not because a required element in the procedure is missing, but simply because he does not want to convert. Exactly as with one who picks up an object without intending to acquire it. Therefore, in describing the conversion process there is no need or point in including acceptance of the yoke of the Torah and commandments. One possible consequence is that if the convert does not accept one matter because he believes that this is not the correct interpretation of the Torah, he is still a convert. Only if excluding that one matter amounts, in principle, to not accepting the yoke of the Torah, is his conversion invalid.
A Conceptual Consideration
This conclusion also follows clearly from conceptual analysis—from logic. What, exactly, defines the process of conversion if not acceptance of commandments? What should the convert want? To suffer together with us? That is mere masochism. Conversion is not entry into a masochistic sect. If he is ready to suffer with us because he believes what we believe and identifies with the reason for the suffering—then he wants to convert. If he merely wants to speak Hebrew instead of Swedish—that is not conversion. I have written more than once (see, for example, my essay here and columns 336–337) that there is no Judaism apart from obligation in the commandments. This is a necessary and sufficient condition.
If someone wishes to define a “conversion” that is national-civic (joining the Jewish people in an ethno-cultural sense), I have nothing to say to him. That is no different from joining the Belgian or Tanzanian nation, and the gates of definitions are certainly not closed. Nation and peoplehood are very open and amorphous concepts, and each group defines them as it wishes. But that is not conversion, and it has no religious or halakhic significance. It is a decision by a society, a people, or a state, not a halakhic decision. Therefore rabbis and dayanim should not be engaged with it, but rather civil servants or judges.
We may now understand the Talmud in Bekhorot itself. If the decisors omitted the rule about acceptance “except for one matter” because it is obvious, then why did the Talmud bring it? Note that the Talmud presents the rule for conversion together with the same rule for acceptance into the fellowship. In acceptance into the fellowship, there was certainly room to say that even if a person accepts it except for one matter, he is still a fellow, for there we are not discussing a principled acceptance of an entire comprehensive system. At most he would be a fellow for eating non-sacred food in purity but not for some other matter. Therefore, regarding fellowship the Talmud had to teach that acceptance except for one matter is not valid; we would not have known this without its novelty. In contrast, with respect to conversion there is no novelty here, for as we saw this follows from conceptual analysis alone. It may be that the Talmud mentions it merely to draw an analogy to acceptance of fellowship. In effect, it is saying: just as acceptance of Judaism except for one matter is invalid (which is obvious and need not be stated), so acceptance of fellowship except for one matter is invalid.[1]
The Dispute about Acceptance of Commandments: Two Meanings of the Term
In these debates, various sources were cited that seem ready to waive acceptance of commandments in the conversion process (see also the discussion on the question raised on the site). This is a conceptual confusion. The term “acceptance of commandments” appears in the conversion discourse with two different meanings: (1) acceptance of commandments as the essence of conversion—this is what I have discussed until now—the acceptance in the convert’s heart: his motivation to enter this process and his understanding of it; and (2) “acceptance of commandments” as a formal act within the conversion procedure—an entirely different meaning.
When we inform the convert of the commandments and hear from him that he accepts them upon himself, that is a formal act that is part of the procedure. Regarding that act, one can debate whether it is rabbinic or biblical, whether it is indispensable, and perhaps even whether it is necessary at all. But one must not confuse this with the convert’s fundamental motivation and intention, where it is agreed by all, without dissent, that we are speaking about acceptance of the yoke of the Torah.
Indeed, there are opinions that the need to articulate that intention at the moment of conversion is unnecessary or not indispensable, or is needed only rabbinically, etc., but this has nothing to do with the court’s need to assess what is in the convert’s heart—why he has come and what he understands. The court must assess whether this convert is coming because he wants to fulfill commandments, and whether he understands that he is becoming obligated in them and that he will be punished or rewarded for his deeds—for without this the conversion is invalid. That is certainly indispensable. If the court can assess this without a formal act of acceptance, the conversion may perhaps be valid (although the Shulchan Aruch implies otherwise, since it requires this to be done before three, indispensably), and the disputes among the decisors revolve about this—and only this. Therefore these disputes have nothing to do with my principled claim about acceptance of commandments as the essence of conversion.
So much for the stringent claim: acceptance of commandments certainly makes or breaks the conversion. Now I will move to the lenient claim: the content of that acceptance.
The Content of Acceptance of Commandments
Most of the disputes around acceptance of commandments in conversion are not about its necessity but about its scope. Rabbi Melamed speaks of acceptance of commandments at the level of “traditionalism.” Others quote Maimonides about “some commandments” and “fundamentals of the faith,” to show there is no need to commit to all the commandments. Unlike the earlier debate (on which I also have a clear stance), these disputes seem to me rather empty.
No one disputes that the convert is not meant to finish the Talmud during the conversion process. He is not meant to know all halakhah in detail—hardly any born Jew does. Moreover, he is not meant to commit to doing everything and never failing—no born Jew manages that either. Up to here, all agree. So what remains? It turns out that “acceptance of commandments” means that he commits in principle to the yoke of the commandments, meaning he understands that from the moment of conversion this entire system obligates him, and that he will be rewarded and punished for his deeds. Note well: this is not an academic learning that “Jews think one must keep Shabbat and not eat pork.” That is academic knowledge. Acceptance of commandments means that he understands that from now on this obligates him. Not that “Jews think it obligates him,” but that he himself understands and agrees.
Nothing beyond that is required. It is reasonable that he knows in advance he will not live up to it (if he is a realistic person). It is reasonable that he knows that not always will his effort be maximal (if he is realistic). He may even think that there are particular laws that he will, from the outset, not even strive to keep—and that too is perfectly fine as far as the validity of the conversion goes (of course it is not fine halakhically). All that is required is only his understanding that the thing obligates him and that he will be punished, and that he accepts this upon himself at the moment of conversion.
One may wonder: how can someone understand that this obligates him and that he will be punished, and yet plan in advance to violate some law? This wonder may sound very reasonable—to a Martian. But we, who dwell in houses of clay, know full well that people are complex creatures. Faithful Jews and great righteous people cut corners in this or that law even though they know they will be punished. Drives, biases, interests, social pressures, psychological difficulties, and more—all of these often lead us to do something that, even in our own view, is not right. To expand on this, I can only refer you to columns 172–173 on weakness of will. This is roughly like a penitent who accepts upon himself “never to return to this sin” (see Maimonides, Hilkhot Teshuvah 2:2) when it is clear to him even at that moment that, in practice, this will not happen. And yet such acceptance is valid repentance, for we are all human; if at that moment we genuinely want it—even if later we will not strive enough—that is repentance (see the commentaries to Maimonides there).
Returning to the content of acceptance of commandments: the conclusion is that there is no need to commit to actually keeping commandments, and the court does not even need an assessment that the convert will do so. What is needed is an assessment that the convert understands the implications of his conversion (obligation, reward and punishment) and that he accepts them upon himself. If the court is persuaded that this is the situation—the conversion is entirely valid, even if from that moment onward the convert does not keep anything at all.
Note that I am not saying merely that if the convert sins after converting this does not invalidate the conversion and he is a sinning Israelite. That is obvious and accepted and needs no elaboration. Clearly, what determines validity is only what was in the convert’s heart at that moment. What he does afterwards changes nothing. Here I wish to say more: even if at the moment of conversion the convert had in his heart no intention to keep any commandment, as long as he understands the implications and accepts them upon himself, the conversion is valid. The content of acceptance of commandments is extremely minimal—far below the view of the “lenient” side in the debate with Rabbi Melamed.
Let me take an example I heard from my friend Rabbi Aharon Katz, may he live long, former head of the Institute for Advanced Torah Studies, when he served as a conversion judge. He told me that a convert appeared before them on Friday, and afterward it became known that that evening (Friday night) he married his chosen one in a large hall with a band, desecrating Shabbat publicly. The court annulled his conversion, for it was clear to them that the event had been organized before the conversion. This was not a sin that occurred after conversion (in which case he is a sinning Israelite). Such a case reveals, retroactively, that at the moment of conversion he did not intend to accept the commandments. On the face of it, the analysis sounds very persuasive. But in light of what I described above, I am not sure they were right. If that convert did not intend to keep Shabbat at the moment of conversion, but he understood the significance of his actions and accepted the implications, he is still a convert in the strictest sense. Admittedly, the court’s decision there is not necessarily mistaken, for it may be that when they heard of his actions they reassessed that from the outset he did not truly intend to accept, and he did not really believe that this obligates him and that his actions would have consequences (otherwise, why not marry on Sunday? And why marry without a rabbi, not “according to the law of Moses and Israel”?). If that was their assessment, their decision was correct.
My intention here is merely to sharpen my distinction, not to set down definitive rulings about that particular case. What is decisive is the assessment of the court that sat in judgment. If the court concludes that there was no acceptance of commandments (in the minimal sense I described) at the moment of conversion, the conversion is invalid. It is hard to lay down rules that will apply to all cases, but it is very important to understand the framework. The court must understand what it needs to assess in order to determine the validity of a conversion, but the assessment itself is entrusted solely to them. Such an assessment is, of course, very complex, and we can never have certainty, but that is the reality. There are other cases in halakhah (not only in conversion) where a court must assess what is in a person’s heart—with all the human difficulty that entails.
No wonder people try to bypass the need for such an amorphous assessment by claiming that actual observance is the indicator by which we gauge the prior intention. That allows us to discuss easier, decisive questions, like how many laws must be kept to provide such an indicator—and all the debates revolve around this. But I do not think there is a general answer; hence, the discussion about the scope of observance is, in my eyes, nonsense. The relevant question is the assessment in the specific case before us—not general criteria. In any case, it is crucial to understand that actual observance is, at most, an indicator (if at all), not a self-standing requirement. Therefore the debate about the required scope of acceptance is pointless and meaningless. Acceptance must be comprehensive and complete, covering the whole of halakhah, but its practical manifestations may—at least in principle—be nil, and the conversion can still be valid.
If we accept the framework I have outlined—and it seems to me that everyone can and should agree to it (it is practically necessary; I do not see a logical, plausible alternative halakhic position)—we find that all these disputes arise from conceptual confusion and are, in part, simply empty.
Conversion to “Traditionalism”
Returning to the question of conversion to “traditionalism” that Rabbi Melamed proposed and that sparked the current debate—we must examine precisely what he means. If he means that practical observance is not what matters, I agree. But then even if the convert will not keep anything—not even at a traditionalist level—the conversion can be valid (as long as the court assesses that there was acceptance of commandments in the sense I described), unless we decide that behavior below “traditionalism” expresses a lack of acceptance from the outset, which I rather doubt (but, of course, every case stands on its own).
I will note that I have written here more than once (see, for example, here and many more) that in my eyes “traditionalists” are halakhically worse than atheists. The latter are coerced in the sense that they believe in nothing (like infants taken captive). But many traditionalists know and recognize halakhah and are, on a principled level, committed to it (their ideal model is one who does keep it), and yet they cut corners. Unlike atheists, such traditionalists are full-fledged transgressors. And nevertheless, I will now say that although a traditionalist Jew is a greater sinner than an atheist, conversion to traditionalism is preferable to conversion to atheism (which is not conversion at all). Conversion to traditionalism, in this sense, entails full acceptance of commandments. As I explained, practical observance is not essential to the validity of the conversion.
Since I expect comments on this point, I will add that here I mean traditionalists who believe in everything but cut corners in observance. There are also the opposite kind of traditionalists—those who keep some things despite believing in nothing (they are committed to the tradition of “father’s house,” like Ahad Ha’am). These are secular in the strictest sense; their commandments are worthless, and one who “converts” to that sort of traditionalism is a very great gentile indeed.
Since the start of the debate, Rabbi Melamed has published several columns in B’Sheva in which he tries to explain his position (the latest I saw was this). I think I read them all, and I still have not found a satisfactory explanation of his claim. There are conflicting notes in his words. In some places it seems he means what I have said here; in others he enters the pointless debates about the scope of observance itself. It is quite clear to me that he is not aware of the distinctions I have made here, for if he were, he could present his position more clearly and convincingly—to himself and certainly to others. The same holds for his opponents. Even if one of them disagrees with something I said, it would be easier for him to address the arguments and ground his position within the framework I proposed. As conducted, the debate is practically a dialogue of the deaf. It rages about the extent of observance meant to be performed; one says thus and the other thus, with no substantive arguments apart from citing and cataloging sources and precedents, and the question becomes how many sources support each side.
Interpretations of Precedents
You can now go through all the debates on the site here and in the articles surrounding Rabbi Melamed’s words, and you will see that in most cases this is a dialogue of the deaf. Sometimes people explain that there is no need for acceptance of commandments when the source says there is no need for the act of acceptance. Sometimes people speak of conversions for the sake of marriage or conversions for side reasons, but these precedents are utterly irrelevant. In earlier periods it was obvious to people that conversion obligates them in commandments and brings punishment, even if they did it only to marry. Therefore there is full, valid acceptance of commandments there. In many cases a gentile understood that the Jewish God punishes Jews, and he understood that when he converts he joins those who are obligated by Jewish law (in the ancient world, a plurality of gods was normal). Thus it is not necessarily a case of someone who does not believe at all in the truth of the system. There are cases where it is clear that the convert will not keep commandments and nevertheless he was converted—but as I explained, it may be that the assessment was that he understands and accepts upon himself the implications, and then practical observance has no bearing on the conversion.
In light of the analysis I have presented, both Rabbi Melamed’s words and those of his opponents—and especially the relevance of the precedents that each side brings and their analysis—become very obscure and, usually, not very relevant. Are we dealing with observance in practice? An assessment of observance at the moment of conversion? Understanding and acceptance of the meaning even without intent to observe? The content of the formal act of acceptance in the conversion procedure? And so on. There is no point now in going peddler-like through all the arguments, but whoever reviews them will see that almost all of these discussions become unnecessary.
First-Order and Second-Order Decision-Making
The picture I have drawn regarding acceptance of commandments in conversion seems to me self-evident and very logical, and I find it hard to see how anyone could disagree. At most, one can argue that in a given situation there is or is not an indicator of the convert’s intentions; but I do not see anything else to debate. Therefore, each side should first state whether he accepts this general picture, and then add the nuance within it over which he wishes to argue. After all, when reading the sides’ claims it is not clear at all what the debate is about, and even less clear where—if anywhere—each speaker departs from the picture I have sketched. I can interpret all sides so that they all agree to the picture described here and are only caught up in different words born of conceptual mixing.
The reliance on precedents and their analysis in this debate is a hallmark of second-order decision-making, which unfortunately characterizes most halakhic debates today (and not only today). In this column one can clearly see the drawbacks of such decision-making and such modes of discussion. By contrast, I have proposed here first-order analysis and decision-making, which comprises conceptual analysis, basic definitions, and constructing a general picture as it emerges from authoritative sources and from reason. Note that all this was done without recourse to any later decisor—and certainly no contemporary one—and even the few early sources are brought here merely as illustration.
I think that, upon reading the column, you will see two clear advantages of first-order halakhic analysis: it renders much of the second-order discussion (and the discussion of precedents) superfluous; and even if one accepts the importance of precedents, such analysis sheds a different light on the content of those precedents and their relevance to the debate.
In this context, it is worth seeing my remark here in the debate about the philological-historical approach in the humanities (in the discussion of R. David Zvi Hoffmann’s position on conversion).
[1] I do not know whether those decisors had a different textual reading, or they read the existing text as I have. In the text before us it does not look merely like an analogy (especially since the law of acceptance into fellowship is brought before acceptance of commandments).
In my opinion, you skipped over another option, which is more reasonable.
You wrote, “Maybe he even thinks that there are certain laws that he will not even try to observe in advance, and that is perfectly fine in terms of the validity of the conversion (of course, it is not halachically okay). All that is required is his understanding that this obligates him and that he will be punished, and that he accepts this upon himself at the time of conversion.”
More likely, in my opinion, is that if he thinks in advance that there are laws that he will not even try to observe, there is no acceptance of the burden of a commandment, and that is what the convert does except for a certain thing. Conversion only applies if he decides to make a significant effort to observe every commandment and law. He certainly knows that he will sin – whether inadvertently or from an evil inclination like every Jew, but his plan, his general decision, is to observe everything to the fullest extent – to the extent that he manages to overcome his inclinations and weaknesses. Of course, he doesn't need to know whether it is permissible to drink between glasses or whether the bitters of the korach are dipped in the rosary, but he needs to show us that he has decided to fulfill everything in any case – if his instincts do not overcome him.
The great issue, which I say is that it is impossible to convert even to traditionalism that believes in absolute positivity, because it is still lacking in accepting the commandments when one decides in advance to coincide as he pleases, and not only if his instincts overcome him
The division does not really exist. ‘As much as he manages to overcome his instincts and weaknesses’ de facto includes everything.
“Let it seem to us that he has decided to fulfill everything in any case if his instincts do not overcome him” a definition that belongs to Hasidic vert and not to a halachic definition.
Nadav, I didn't understand your comment.
Uri, this is very unlikely in my opinion. Effort is something that cannot be defined. A person says in advance that he will not try to comply, it is because it is difficult for him. So this too should be seen as failure and not necessarily a lack of effort. As with all of us. After all, if he truly believes and is committed, why wouldn't he comply if there is no cost? Unless you see in his behavior a symptom of a lack of faith/commitment, then the conversion is truly invalid, as I wrote.
The immigrant needs to understand that he is obligated even if it is without making an internal decision that he decides to obey this obligation? What if the immigrant thinks and understands that now there is a chance that God Almighty will command him in the system of commandments, but he does not think that God Almighty's commandments are "binding" (i.e. whether or not there is also a normative decision here in filtering all the facts of all kinds).
I'm not sure I understood the comment. If he is obligated then when there is no price he will certainly fulfill. Therefore one of two things: either he is obligated but does not fulfill the price or with difficulty, or he is not obligated. If he is not obligated, it is really not conversion.
If he does not think that the commandments of God are binding, he is of course not a Jew. This is the meaning of not being obligated.
From the wording, “accepting a commandment means that he understands that from now on it binds him,” it seems that this is an “understanding” of a fact and not a normative decision. Perhaps he believes that he is “obligated” in every factual sense, but even without a price, he is not interested in fulfilling it (free choice).
Normative claims are prescriptive, not descriptive. When I say that someone understands that murder is forbidden, it means that he is also obligated to do so (otherwise he does not really understand this claim except in a descriptive sense: some people live with the feeling that murder is forbidden).
Similarly, I wrote in the past that the very concept of God derives the obligation to his commandments. This is in contrast to the recognition of the existence of some other object or some occurrence, which does not oblige me to anything. God is a charged entity, not a neutral one.
1. The rabbi wrote that it is clear that the essence of conversion is accepting the yoke of commandments, because “our nation is not a nation, etc.”, but this seems an anachronism to me. It is very possible that in the eyes of the ancient world the essence of conversion was the agreement to worship only the God of Israel alone and not to turn to other gods, and this was the Torah of the covenant. A hint of this can be seen in the expression “your people are my people and your God is my God”.
2. Precisely because it is possible to wonder about the essence of conversion, it is impossible to be satisfied with a first-order discussion in the absence of sources. A conceptual clarification of “it cannot be that this is x” is playing logic with yourself without any external anchor for examination. Therefore, it is also difficult to accept the argument “if there are rabbinical quotes for or against this interpretation, it does not increase or decrease”.
3. The issue of punishment and divine judgment sounds strange. If a person does not believe that there is any external punishment or reward for his actions, can he not convert? Or become a servant of God?
1. The expression of Ras”G is not my evidence. It is an illustration. The evidence is that there is no other measure of Judaism, and I referred to my discussions of this. And so of course it also emerges from the Mimra in the firsts.
2. And what do those rabbis who wrote the precedents rely on? After all, everything begins and ends in the first order.
3. The punishment is only an indication of commitment. If a person does not believe in reward and punishment, in my opinion, this is not a defect in conversion. Although the Maimonides and the Shulchan Arius may have thought that it was a binding principle. I don't know.
4. Doesn't the string of stories of converts before Shammai and Hillel raise a question about the entire thesis written here? The essence of minimal conversion, the ability to force the community of sages to accept a gentile for all of Israel against their opinion, and the need to adhere to precedents and the interpretation of the sages of the generations, otherwise we will be lost?
I don't see why. If there is a concrete question, please be respectful and raise it.
The argument: “Acceptance of the commandments is the essence of conversion and not one of the details in the process” is very difficult.
This is an apparently paradoxical argument, and basing it on the laws of property owners is not even close to being sufficient. I will explain:
We need to distinguish between a concept that has a meaning in the ‘Stamah’ and a concept that has no meaning in the ‘Stamah (i.e. outside the context of Jewish law). When a concept has a meaning in the ‘Stamah, say property, then we can omit its meaning and assume that people will use its known meaning*. On the other hand, when we are talking about a new concept, say tefillin, then we have no choice but to begin the discussion by explaining ‘What are tefillin’ – “These 4 paragraphs… are called tefillin”.
If you say that conversion is a concept that exists in the stam (as a property), then conversion to the Jewish people is the same as conversion to the Swedish people except for the things that the halakhah added, namely the word immersion and sacrifice.
If you say that conversion is a concept that does not exist in the stam (as a tevile), then conversion is what the halakhah explains to us it is, and therefore if the halakhah omits the acceptance of the commandments (as you agreed to assume at the beginning of one of the paragraphs), then the acceptance of the commandments is not part of conversion.
It is impossible to add substantial meaning to the concept of interpretation.
With respect to the main point of the discussion (the ’kola’) the analysis is excellent, but it is not clear what the ‘indication in the heart’ is that the court is supposed to decide based on. An indication that the immigrant intends to keep the commandments – certainly not. An indication that he is aware of the positive system – It is not necessary, since it is clear from the process (except in extreme cases such as a minor or a fool).
From a practical point of view, the concept of ‘acceptance of the commandments’ is almost meaningless:
All it requires is that there is no coercion on the foreigner, and that he knows that ‘halacha’ exists**. Beyond that, his mere agreement to continue the process constitutes ‘acceptance of the commandments’, whether he intends to observe them in a secular, traditional, Reform or Haredi manner.
To clarify the point of contention, it is necessary to clearly define when a conversion is valid and when it is not:
The strict ones require experience in observing the commandments as a religious Jew – belief in God and the law, and its existence as a religious person.
Rabbi Melamed requires experience in observing the commandments as a traditional Jew – belief in God and the law, and its existence in some way.
From the column I understood that the rabbi's requirement is – The court is impressed that the convert understands that he will receive reward and punishment in relation to his observance of the halacha. Does this necessarily mean that a foreigner must believe in God, in the afterlife, in God's providence, in reward and punishment?
(In my uninteresting opinion – none of this is required. Any validity of ‘accepting a commandment’ is in order not to mislead a gentile who comes to convert without knowing about the halacha and then will be disappointed that he will probably go to hell, a kind of inappropriate mistake-taking on the part of the court. In retrospect, the conversion is still valid)
*Of course, this will create questions in the future when the meaning changes, but that's a different problem.
**This can also be argued about, especially in relation to an atheist foreigner.
PS. Of course, in all cases it is only a question of whether the conversion is valid. Whether one should convert in advance like this is a completely different question (which is expressed mainly from religious-political-sociological considerations, i.e. to what extent do we want to strengthen the correlation between 'Jew' and 'observing the Sabbath according to its law')
I did not base this on the laws of the Kenai. The basis for this is the explanation (that there is no other definition of Judaism), on the Gemara in Kororot and on the tongues of the poskim. The laws of the Kenai were brought up only as an example to answer the difficulty raised as to why the poskim do not bring up this requirement.
I see no difference between a concept that is clear in a general context and a concept that is clear in a Jewish context, as long as it is clear. Everyone is supposed to understand what and who a Jew is. Incidentally, this understanding can be considered universal. Gentiles are also supposed to understand that a Jew means someone who is committed to the law.
I have no way of providing unambiguous tools for assessing what is in a person's heart. But that is the role of the Jewish Judiciary, and although they can of course be wrong, we have no better way than to make an impression. Thus, the Jewish Judiciary is supposed to decide who is a Baal Teshuvah (for returning him to kosher), or on intentions in the Kenai and Kiddushin, and so on.
It is not true that it is enough that there is no coercion on the immigrant. There are interests (such as the Law of Return and rights and asylum in the Land, etc.). Indeed, as I also wrote, once upon a time this was truly the case, and therefore immigrants also received marriages. But today there are interests, and today the definition of Judaism in the eyes of the masses is not necessarily halakha (but rather some amorphous Jewish national identity). Therefore, today it is certainly not enough to have no coercion.
My definition is not related to reward and punishment, but rather commitment. Reward and punishment are only an indication of commitment. Of course, commitment is a commitment to God and His commandments, and therefore faith is a fundamental condition that is not needed before. The observance of mitzvot in the Ahad Ha'am version is worth nothing. Someone who converts on the basis of observing the halakha, whether mild or severe, with all the sections of the Mishnah, is clearly a gentile for the purposes of Ahad Ha'am.
The simple explanation is that joining the Jewish people is similar to joining the Swedish people.
The halacha comes and renews – No, here you need circumcision and baptism and a sacrifice and everything in front of a court of law.
The halacha comes and *does* not renew (to whoever said) that you need ‘acceptance of the commandments’.
To make sure I understood correctly – A conversion is valid from the point of view of accepting the commandments if the court of law believes the convert who says:
“I join the Jewish people and therefore commit myself to the system of laws that God has obligated the people of Israel with”.
I understand this from the perspective of the hasbara, but I can't read it in the sources:
“…They did not inform him of the reward and punishment of the commandments and circumcision and baptism in front of the lay people – then this is a grave sin’ It is known that for a reason he converts, since he is circumcised and baptized, he is removed from the ranks of idolaters. Of course, one can disagree with the Rambam and the Shulchan (of course, since the beginning of the Shulchan means something different), but the simple truth of this halakha is that the entire story of the mitzvot is only for the beginning.
I clarified the difference between receiving and announcing a commandment.
My emphasis is on “because he was circumcised and baptized”. Not “because he received a commandment”, not “because he was informed of a commandment”.
(And in general, it simply means that he does not even know that there is such a thing as a commandment)
I explained this too: Anyone who wants to convert (=receive commandments), since he is circumcised and baptized, is a Jew.
And of course, in the Shul, it is written to the Hadiya that even the announcement of the mitzvot delays, not just their acceptance. Therefore, I don't understand how you put words in his mouth about an unjust God.
Many traditionalists think that there really is no need to keep everything and that God should not mind that I remove a stain from my shirt on Shabbat. Will someone who converts if they accept this commandment be subject to it?
I explained everything in the column. If that person accepts the yoke of a mitzvot, he lives kosher. Even if his interpretation of the mitzvot differs from the accepted one.
with
It seems to me that there is a fundamental question that arises here.
If a foreigner converts out of faith and with the desire to enter into a system of reward and punishment for observing the 33 commandments, but for all sorts of reasons he knows that he is about to sin and be punished. And despite all this he wants to convert. For all sorts of reasons. Probably because of personal weakness. On the one hand, he believes in Judaism. And he was born and raised here and has no other way to base his life than on conversion in order to get married and start a family. And on the other hand, he is converted to appetite and does not intend or is unable to change this situation. Is it from an ideological point of view, and not from a dry halakhic point of view, that it is even worthwhile to convert such a person? Does God, the Blessed One, desire such a foreigner to join the people of Israel? Is it about him that the verse, "Love the foreigner," was said? Am I, as a Jew, obligated to return a loss to a complete evildoer of this type. To repay him with kindness. To treat him with brotherhood? Here too, we see that the obvious answer is no. After all, God Almighty, from a study of the sources and from a conceptual point of view, does not at all desire the entry of Gentiles who do not observe the 33 commandments into the people of Israel. And from this perhaps also derives the laws that a person who is wrong on Shabbat should study Torah or perform a religious mitzvah while being a Gentile is liable to death. And all that is expected of him, in order to reach perfection and be considered desirable in the eyes of the place, is the 7 commandments of the children of Noah, upright and ethical behavior, and the rejection of idolatry out of faith in the Torah of Moses.
The fact that something can technically and formally be considered a conversion does not mean that it is the will of God, or the spirit of the Torah, or that it is in accordance with the principles of the Torah and the principles of the sages. And perhaps that is the cry of all the critics. After all, such a convert is worse in terms of conclusion than traditional Israeli criminals. Who are aware of their duty and do not fulfill them. But most of them have never delved into religion. They do not understand the magnitude of the duty of observing the commandments. The magnitude of the seriousness of the offense, but were born into a mixed environment and fulfill what they think is expected of them.
And I do not understand what problem that conversion can solve in terms of assimilation in general. Previously, we regretted the loss in mixed marriages and now we regret the loss in the entry of a new Israeli criminal into the nation. That criminal will establish a home in a marriage that is indeed kosher. But with a lifestyle that is likely to be very criminal.
Why can't Gentiles, if we want to prevent sins and intermarriage, be given the status of a resident alien, a righteous man among the nations, a decent person who has a share in the world to come, and we are all responsible for its sustenance and revival?
I am not writing my words with the aim of solving any problem, so it is not important whether it exists or not.
I did not discuss here the question of the policy of conversion in the first place, but only the validity of conversion. Policy is a different matter, and here I tend to agree with what you said. In the halakha itself, we find this distinction, for example, regarding the conversion of spouses. As a policy, it is not recommended to accept such a conversion, but in retrospect his conversion is valid (this is accepted. Since in my opinion this is not true. Even in the current day, such a conversion is not valid).
Surely you have not forgotten the Gemara that a foreigner who converts among the Achaemenids and does not know anything of the entire Torah is obligated to offer one sin offering for everything. This means that he is already a Jew. This means that he converted only because he happened to be a Jew or an Israeli without anyone teaching him anything at all. The desire (from sincerity) to be counted among the Jewish people is the essence of conversion. The practice depends on the Jewish people and we all know that halachic practice is not a consensus among the entire people, even though it was in the past. Therefore, any party that takes an action that is not generally accepted is violent, even if it is the Chief Rabbinate or a private court. And it is better that it be privatized and that the political reality determines it.
It certainly hasn't disappeared, and I don't understand how it's related to the subject under discussion. Such a Jew has taken on a halakhic obligation, but he doesn't know what it includes. But it's clear to him that there is a halakhic obligation and that it obligates him.
Being counted among the Jewish people is an undefined matter. Speak Hebrew? Read David Grossman? Serve in the army? All of this can be done without being Jewish, and indeed there are many who do.
To my father
This is really not the clear meaning of the Gemara. Tosafot on the spot comment that the conversion was by three of the Israelites, only that they did not inform him of the commandments of Shabbat. But the convert himself did not become a convert.
There is no such thing as converting to Israeliteness. That is nonsense. One converts by accepting the burden of the commandments and the court’s assessment of the sincerity of the convert’s intention. After that, it does not matter what he does (it is very important, as long as he remains in his Judaism)
“Even if at the moment of conversion the immigrant's heart is not to keep any mitzvah, as long as he understands the consequences and accepts them upon himself, this conversion is valid”
I didn't understand how it can be said that a person who thinks not to keep any mitzvah intended to take upon himself the burden of Torah, or that he didn't really intend to or that he didn't understand the meaning. Is it possible to understand that a person sometimes fails like everyone else or even returns to his ways after a while, but if he doesn't keep them at all, is he called committed to the mitzvah?
This is a statement of principle. My argument is that one does not have to intend to fulfill the commandments. This intention is at most an indication of acceptance of the principled obligation. In practice, if he does not fulfill it is because of a price he is not willing to pay or because he is not obligated. The judge is supposed to decide which of the two.
First, a great honor, certainly thought-provoking.
I will start by saying that the rabbi has no one who disagrees with the fact that the actual observance of the mitzvot is an indication of the acceptance of the mitzvot, which is the heart of conversion. And now, with the permission of the rabbi, I will make two comments on the body of the matter.
A. Regarding the ’ghumra’. Forgive me, but the rabbi has a hard time accepting the argument. Moreover, it is certainly possible to think of another definition of conversion. For example, a person can desire the result of conversion, his formal definition as a Jew, without committing to the mitzvot. For example, the ability to marry a Jew, the obligation to restore what he has lost, and so on. In light of the fact that such a definition, or such a desire, exists, I would expect that the obligation to accept the mitzvot would be written explicitly. That is, it is not possible to be Jewish (and, in the case of the laws of the Jews, to gain an object) without accepting the burden of a commandment (and, in the case of the laws of the Jews, without buying it or wanting to buy it).
B. Regarding the “kola.” Ultimately, the question of whether a person will commit a transgression depends on several components: the strength of his certainty about the prohibition and the punishment for it, his fear of the consequences and results of the prohibition, his desire to violate that prohibition, his ability to deal with desire in general (what we call the postponement of gratification or, more correctly, the cancellation of gratification). In other words, the fact that a person does not actually observe a commandment, even after he has “accepted” the burden of a commandment, is related to the relationship between these factors. We are of course interested in the first part, perhaps even only the first part of the first part, namely that he understands that he is obligated to do certain things and that he is forbidden to do other things. In fact, if I understand your argument correctly, that a person does not observe the Torah and the commandments after receiving the commandments, does not necessarily stem from the first point, but from the other components. I very much understand and identify with and agree in principle, but on a practical level, it seems that there is no other way to determine the nature of the first and significant component of the sincerity of receiving the commandments. How can one know whether a person receives the commandments?
All of this, in my opinion, goes back to the psychology of the ’traditional’. Does the traditional Jew (the one you were talking about, not the atheist) really think that the commandments obligate him? That is, does he really understand what the meaning of the obligation of the commandments is, and his whole life is nothing but a repeated failure in his desires, or a general lack of ability to delay gratification, or any other of the other components that I listed? Or is the picture a little more complex, and is fed by this set of components. In other words, the fact that a person has difficulty with fulfilling a particular mitzvah is fed by the fact that he does not really understand the meaning of the prohibition, or that the strength and level of certainty are not clear to him. In any case, since I understand that the variable we are interested in examining, which is the acceptance of the commandments, is not binary, but a continuous concept, I think your “examination” of the quality of conversion (as several commenters have already written) is a bit naive.
Therefore, we are forced to cling to the indication of actual observance of the commandments. Although we all understand that it may not reflect the fundamental and essential component that underlies conversion, it seems to be the only indication that exists. All of this, of course, without going into the question of what the expected level of observance is. For example, we may come to the conclusion that, in contrast to the past, all the other components I listed above have changed significantly, and in any case, the actual forecast for observance of the commandments can be lower without lowering the level of certainty regarding the acceptance of the commandments, which, as stated, is at the heart of the matter of conversion.
I will start by saying that no one disagrees with this except all the rabbis. It is agreed that if the immigrant does not actually observe a commandment, his immigration is not invalid. The discussion is about what his mind and intentions were at the moment of conversion.
A. Once the definition of Judaism is based on halakhah, then even if he wants the possibility of marrying a Jewish woman, he understands that he must observe a commandment. This is exactly how I explained the law of immigrants for the sake of marriage.
B. You described my position perfectly. I clarified this further in the talkbacks. The indications are what the immigrant says and how he conducts himself in the conversion process. How interested he is, is he excited about the whole story, knowledge of his motives and background, etc. I have already said that in other contexts in halakhah, understanding what is in a person’s heart is also important.
I did not understand your description of the sequence. In section B, you explained it more correctly, but there it does not speak of a sequence but of a set of factors. It is absolutely not the same thing. There is no sequence in accepting a commandment. Either he accepts or he doesn't. Indeed, other factors can influence actual existence, as you wrote.
Regarding actual existence, see my introduction. This is precisely the indication that everything is agreed upon and irrelevant.
Regarding the beginning of my remarks, I did not formulate them properly, and therefore what was understood was the opposite of what I intended to claim. My intention was that the majority of all poskim understand that the question of actual observance of the mitzvot or the assessment that a person will observe a mitzvot is “merely” an indication that the process of conversion is valid and nothing more. I did not mean to claim that everyone agrees that a gentile who committed a transgression has his conversion invalid, which is of course not true as you wrote.
A. I am not sure I understand. The argument is based on an assessment of the opinion of the gentile existing at the time of the Shulchan Aruch or Maimonides (I am asking seriously)? There was certainly room to think that there was a possibility of joining the Jewish nation, and that the halakhah recognizes this. That is, a person could be part of the Jewish people, and this would have a halakhic meaning, for example, as I mentioned above, that he could marry a Jewish woman and that they would be obliged to return his lost property. Provided, of course, that he completes the ‘conversion practice’ of circumcision, immersion, and offering a sacrifice. Incidentally, to the point, it should be said that the obligation to accept the mitzvot during the conversion process is explicitly stated in the author's words, and he also explicitly rules that it is an impediment. In Rambam (13:4), it does not appear as part of the conversion process, but rather as something that motivates or enables the process from the beginning, as you yourself noted.
B. Accepting the mitzvot itself, just like any contract, is not continuous, that is of course true. But the question is what underlies the acceptance. After all, a person has taken upon himself to enter into a legal system that in practice no one enforces (at least not openly). And it is impossible to ignore the fact that this point is a significant contributing factor to the fact that today there are many Jews who do not observe the Torah and mitzvot at all.
Therefore, when that foreigner is about to violate the Sabbath, is he violating the Sabbath with the awareness that he is about to commit a keret? Or is it that part of what allows him to commit the offense is the fact that alongside his absolute acceptance of the burden of the commandments, there is significant doubt about their certainty. And with regard to the question of belief in the existence of the system, I can certainly ask, in my opinion, how much does he believe in the system? What price is he willing to pay for believing in the system?
In practice, with regard to the court's assessment, I believe that in most cases there will be no significant gap. The court examines the person's seriousness in the process, and as such it usually comes with a sincere desire to observe the commandments in principle, and to maintain a religious life.
If that's what you meant to say, then you're just repeating what I said.
I answered everything else, and you're repeating the same questions again. I don't know what to do with it. I'll be back shortly.
A. I've already answered that. There's no such thing as a Jew without Halacha. Does he want to join the Hebrew speakers? For that, he doesn't need to convert, and that shouldn't justify a marriage license with him. There are many Druze or Russian Gentiles who speak Hebrew.
B. I explained that there's no meaning to discontinuity, only complexity. You're repeating the discontinuity again without explaining anything. It's not about whether he's 100 percent convinced. No one is 100 percent convinced, but everyone is supposed to make decisions under conditions of uncertainty. There's no discontinuity in that.
In the definition of exiles and precisely in the Rambam”s and you followed the path of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. See Lekoti Sichot, 33, Shavuot, 2
As the saying goes: “Even a clock stands still…”
🙂
Even if the principle is understood, it is difficult to see how someone who knows about the Sabbath and does not intend to keep it from the beginning (and who, as evidenced by the fact that he violated it a few hours later), can be considered someone who has taken upon himself the burden of the commandments (i.e., believes in it and its Torah and sees himself under a real obligation).
Is it conceivable that someone who came to convert and said: I accept upon myself the burden of all the commandments but Musar is aware that I intend to violate the Sabbath, reveal fornication, and fill my belly on Yom Kippur, we will accept him?
In such a case, we will always consider his words about accepting the burden to be empty words, and the court did well to annul his conversion, which is automatically annulled (and it is not similar to the prohibitions of slander or the abrogation of the Torah, which every person fails in at one point or another. Or to the general knowledge that he is destined to sin because no one is righteous, etc.).
I didn't understand what was new here beyond what I already wrote. Indeed, it would also be conceivable. Observing the commandments is an indication of receiving the commandments, but not necessarily. See Moishe's talkback above in section B:
https://mikyab.net/posts/75802#comment-61060
If you assess that these were empty words, then his residency is not valid, as I wrote. But not because he does not observe, but because he did not receive. I do not agree that this will necessarily be the assessment.
Whether we accept him or not, to begin with I agree that it is appropriate not to accept him, but if they received him, he lives kosher.
Shalom Rav
The Rabbi's interpretation of Maimonides' words that he did not write the Gemara in the first place
I do not understand it, since in the Gemara there is an innovation in the power of not accepting a single halakha
And this is certainly a great innovation because this stranger accepts the burden of the entire Torah, only one mitzvah he does not accept and is not at all similar to one who does not accept anything, and to omit this because there is no need to write the law of accepting a mitzvah is strange
To me, this seems reasonable. There is no acceptance of the yoke here because he himself decides what his ”olom” is. Maimonides brings the acceptance of the yoke as the motivation for conversion.
Maimonides also did not write the law of one who converts like a non-Jew. There is no need to write. This is not the acceptance of the yoke of a commandment but folklore.
If I understand correctly, your claim that there is certainly no need to actually accept a commandment because it is obvious and known to all of us that there are commandments that he will overlap with and he will not keep the entire thorn of the law and necessarily it is sufficient to assume that the immigrant is aware of the consequences of conversion (obligations, reward and punishment).
But where does this come from to jump and say that there is no need to actually accept a commandment? In total, this proves that there is no need to actually accept a commandment on the entire thorn of the law, but it is very possible that there is a need to actually accept a commandment on one level or another?
Are you sure it's written in Hebrew? I couldn't understand. I wrote that one needs to receive the commandments but not actually keep them. And what does it mean to receive the commandments "at one level or another"? To keep thirty commandments? Four hundred and fifty? It's easy to make empty slogans.
This is exactly what you don't understand, why don't you need to actually observe the commandments and it's enough that he is aware of the consequences? Just because he is sure that he will overlap doesn't mean that he doesn't need to actually observe the commandments, at most it means that he won't be perfect?
For example, it's much more likely that an average and reasonable Jew needs to actually observe the commandments, but conversion knowing that he will eat treifot and nevilot, etc. has no meaning of conversion and joining the Jewish people.
I explained what I had to explain. If you don't accept it, then no. I don't see what there is to add here. To me it seems obvious, and in fact necessary.
Rabbi Michi, thank you for your words (I think Rabbi Feinstein wrote similar things). The question is: Is the level of observance of the mitzvot close to and apparent to conversion not a reasonable indication of the level of belief of the immigrant in the reward and punishment of the mitzvot? A reasonable religious person believes that the punishment for leaven on Passover is keret, and therefore he is more wary of it than lashon hara, for example. If the immigrant truly accepts upon himself the reward and punishment of the mitzvot and believes in their existence, then he will truly strive to observe them. Therefore, an immigrant who holds a wedding on Shabbat without a rabbi less than a day after conversion reveals to the judges that even in real time he did not think that he would be punished for desecrating Shabbat. I will try to clarify this further. Acceptance of the mitzvot includes belief in two things: a. There is a reward and punishment for the mitzvot, b. I, the immigrant, am obligated to them. A prime minister who, an hour after taking the oath of allegiance, passed secret material to the enemy, it is quite reasonable to assume that the oath was verbal and external. He did know that there were consequences for his actions (he was aware of it), but he did not really intend to commit to being loyal to the state (he did not commit to it). The same applies to the resident who violates the Sabbath that you described. Either he does not believe in reward and punishment, or he does not intend to be obligated. Accepting the commandments requires both, and if one is missing, he is not a resident.
You're repeating what I said. Is there a question here?
Does the Rabbi agree that accepting a commandment includes belief in reward and punishment? If not, what is the content of the commitment to fulfill it? After all, there is no commitment without sanctions for those who do not fulfill it.
This is a strange argument. What is your point? If you are asking this because you have knowledge that I do not believe in reward and punishment, then your eyes can see that I do not accept your assumption that there are no valid norms without reward and punishment. And if you are speaking from what I said here, I do not understand where you saw such a statement. On the contrary, I wrote that the immigrant must accept the reward and punishment (although I really wrote this only as an indication that he accepts the obligation. Regarding reward and punishment, I do not have a clear position).
Perhaps we can define the acceptance of this general commandment in the form of a question to the Gentile: "If, let's say, keeping the entire Torah did not require any effort from you, there was no difficulty or experience at all, and you were able to keep it all without a problem, would you keep it?" Because in my opinion, if something seems like nonsense to me or I don't believe in it, then I don't do it just because "if it doesn't help, it won't hurt." If someone tells me that I now have a commandment to jump 3 times, I won't do it even if it's easy, so if he says yes, there is actually an indication here of the general commitment: does he see the Torah as something empty and devoid of content or as something important on a principled level that is just difficult for him, etc.
Totally agree.
The definition “I have accepted that it is binding on me without committing to actual observance” does not stand up to criticism. After all, the Gemara there states a similar sentence regarding accepting membership. Would it be conceivable to consider as a “member” who is faithful in matters of impurity and purity and tithes someone who only “commits in principle and does not promise to observe”?
Does a friend also need to be circumcised and immersed? When making a comparison, one must understand that it is done for a certain aspect and is not complete. And in Talmudic language: Don minya and minya and oki in itra. Except for one thing, meaning I accept upon myself a commitment except for one thing.
The language of the baraita you copied above: “T”R: He who comes to receive the words of the community except for one thing – is not accepted, a pagan [צ”ל: a gentile/foreigner] who comes to receive the words of the Torah except for one thing – is not accepted”. Circumcision and baptism were not mentioned. But the acceptance is the same acceptance. How is that simpler?
Indeed, both involve accepting a commitment, except for one thing. I explained why a commitment to fulfill is unreasonable, and I have nothing to add.
Let the readers judge.
Additional evidence:
Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Yevamot, page 44, page 2
He who has been baptized and has become a Jew is like Israel in all his words. For what reason is he a convert? Why did he return to the temple of the daughter of Israel, and did he make a conversion to a Karina of the temple, and his sanctifications were sanctified.
Rambam, Laws of the Prohibitions of Entry, chapter 13, Halacha 17
And even if he returned and practiced idolatry, he is like Israel a convert whose sanctifications were sanctified.
If “hadar biah” means: he withdrew from his principled commitment, but a practical commitment is not a condition for conversion, why did Rambam omit the main innovation and settle for the practical “returned and practiced idolatry”?
The discussion here is truly bizarre. He reneged on his commitment and therefore committed crimes. Usually, those who are committed do not commit crimes.
Maimonides does not say "returned" but "returned and worked". You are loading this with an interpretation that he withdrew from his commitment, because indeed this is usually the case, but this is only "usually" and against what you have said that the main thing is the principled commitment and a practical return does not necessarily cancel it. If so, this does not qualify as "even", the clearest example of his withdrawal from his acceptance.
Even a slave of idolatry, which is the supreme expression of a return from the very commitment and not just a practical offense.
I think we've exhausted it.
According to the Mera Datra method, there is a difference between acceptance and fulfillment. This gemara speaks of equality in acceptance between accepting companions and accepting strangers. But it does not speak of equality in the required fulfillment.
There is a claim that is often heard – that it is better for them to convert, than for them to marry us when they are Gentiles. And after all, marriage with them when they grow up with us from childhood all the way, and serve with us in the army, is inevitable. It happens and will happen. Therefore, we need to push for conversion, encourage it, and facilitate it. This is also, apparently, the modus operandi of “Nativ” in the army.
(It sounds something like this – If your child meets a smart and charming Gentile girl in the army and falls in love with her, wouldn't you prefer that she already be a convert? Therefore, we need to push them to convert from the beginning).
I heard this claim, as it were, also from a serious rabbi, and I was very surprised.
I couldn't understand if there was any halachic logic to the claim. To me, it sounds absurd.
I would love to hear your opinion.
There is some logic in this claim (very dubious in my opinion) if we are talking about someone who is not accepted to convert for policy reasons (like the conversions of former spouses, or someone who in our assessment will not actually keep the commandments). Here, the conversion is valid from the standpoint of the theory, but the policy is not to convert. Policy considerations are subject to consequentialism and updating according to circumstances. But a conversion that is not valid certainly should not be made for such a reason.
So could there be justification for changing policy considerations today, regarding those who live among us, for this reason, and encouraging people to become interested in conversion?
It's definitely possible. These are already policy considerations. Although in my opinion the state should not be involved in matters of conversion at all, neither encouraging, nor recognizing, nor torpedoing. It's none of her mother's business.
A. Decided to buy a draft
B. Decided not to buy a draft
C. Not decided at all on the subject.
A. Decided to keep the commandments
B. Decided not to keep the commandments
C. Not decided at all on the subject.
Many of the traditionalists are in C.
What is wrong with the convert who is in C?
Why does the rabbi say either yes or no when there is also the one who did not delve into it and did not decide but will flow?
I ask that you not comment in riddles. If you have a comment or question, please write them clearly. I don't know what a draft is and what it's doing here.
If the immigrant did not become ill, he did not take upon himself a commandment and therefore is not an immigrant. That's all.
Decided to flow with.
This is the situation of many in the nation.
Does this seem satisfactory to you?
These words are not defined. Did he receive a commandment but flow with existence or does he flow with acceptance (what is that anyway?)? I explained everything, and I don't see any situation that wasn't covered by my words in the article. Therefore, there is no point in using undefined words that seem to express a third situation.
Decided to flow with the commandments and observe a part that suits him like many traditionalists..
Less delved into whether he accepts a ‘burden’ or not…
A reality that exists among a large number of traditionalists.
Flow and not a definition of obligation.
Although when observing what exists, I do think that we should because of the obligation
Definitely a third situation and perhaps they are the largest group among traditionalists
So he doesn't take it upon himself. It's exactly the one who excluded one thing that doesn't live.
The exception to the first point is that some explain that this is not the whole matter.
That is, he agrees/wants to be a Jew provided that he is not subject to a Shatanez and is not punished for it. (Because he has a beautiful sweater that is subject to a Shatanez from the Safta) For this, it is impossible to convert, that is, to be a Jew in advance only for some, and especially not for some.
But it does not prove that he is obligated to accept to keep the commandments at all, but that he knows that this is the matter and will receive a reward if he keeps it and a punishment if he breaks it…
And there are no exceptional commandments.
But there is no need to commit to keeping it and certainly there is no need for some kind of assessment of his seriousness in keeping even one thing.
But he knows that this is a matter that includes all the commandments
Up to this point you've repeated exactly what I wrote. I've exhausted it.
In the part of the Kola, some points of view
In the part of the Hvarta, the Rabbi fails to convince and fails to push the understanding that this is the essence of the migrations (?) within the words of the Maimonides and more.
The essence of the migrations is a desire to join the people of Israel simply like that and nothing more.
Does the Rabbi want to burden this even more?
Please, whoever takes the evidence from his author is the one who wrote it.
And write even? Sometimes it is simple and this is the essence (without evidence, even 1 even incidentally) because otherwise it is just a Hebrew-speaking Gentile, etc. This may indicate that this is the Rabbi's general understanding and his perception of the concept of the people of Israel, etc. But of course, it is not evidence, proof, or anything similar to this.
And perhaps we can learn from the context of today's Jewish law - not the words "a slave involuntarily", probably because if he himself does not want to accept the yoke of commandments, there is no point in converting him. In other words, the essence of conversion is accepting the yoke of commandments.
It is not enough that he wanted to live with us, work with us and enjoy what we have to offer. He must convert. He must be circumcised. He must accept the yoke of commandments.
If he is not interested, do not keep him, sell him.
?
Interesting.
Surely after Ras”G wrote explicitly that conversion is to join the people of Israel and he is: to join the people of Israel and not to accept the commandments.
Maimonides, who came after him, if he had thought like Rabbi Michai, would certainly have written: No, Ras”G is wrong. The essence of conversion is the fulfillment of the commandments. And since he did not write so and in general omitted the acceptance of the commandments, then he was not afraid of Rabbi Michai's understanding
In the 24th of Nisan 152
Ras 3 defined that our nation is not a nation except in its Torah; and therefore, in his opinion, there is no other meaning for joining the people of Israel than accepting the yoke of the Torah, and as defined by Maimonides, to “crouch under the wings of the Divine Presence and accept the yoke of the Torah upon oneself.”
With blessings, Hillel Feiner-Glossinos
Regarding the explanation that “accepting the commandments” is “accepting the obligation to the commandments” that the convert believes with complete faith in their validity and commitment to them, even if in practice he does not comply with all of them, was proposed by some of the poskim (Rabbi Uziel, Ha-Ahiezer, and others) – can help in certain cases where the court is impressed that the candidate for conversion believes with complete faith in his commitment to the law, but there are constraints that he fears he will not be able to meet.
Such a situation was common in certain places in the Diaspora, where believing Jews were forced to work on Shabbat for reasons of livelihood because all workplaces were open on Shabbat, and in this terrible situation there were Jews who woke up early for the minyan on Shabbat and then with a heavy heart were forced to go to work. Jews in this situation, even if they desecrated Shabbat, tried to observe kashrut and prayer and every mitzvah they could fulfill. So in such a situation there is logic to the argument that a resident who joins such a community – He holds a complete faith view and will only sin in action because of grave compulsion and will do so with a heavy heart.
But what does this have to do with the subject under discussion, who want to convert hundreds of thousands, some of whom do not believe in the Torah and Halacha at all and who by choice maintain a secular lifestyle for all intents and purposes. Does performing Kiddush as folklore and as a nice folk custom – indicate acceptance of the halachic obligation?
Therefore, the ’Ahiezer’ demanded that even those who are subject to fear of compulsion actually observe the main commandments such as kashrut and Shabbat, and therefore Rabbi Uziel did not make it easy for conversions in the Land of Israel, and on the contrary established (together with Rabbi Herzog) the obligation to wait one year in order to test the sincerity of the convert's acceptance of the commandments. Even the Chief Rabbinate Council, which abolished the obligation to wait one year in relation to immigrants from the Soviet Union – She emphasized in her decision (dated 8 Adar 5721) that the relief is in the procedure, not in the halakhic requirement to accept the yoke of mitzvot.
In the past, we live in a Jewish and free country, where most of the economy is settled on Shabbat, kosher food is easily available, synagogues, mikvahs, and religious schools are available to everyone. And a foreigner who has come to believe in the binding validity of the Torah and its mitzvot can also find the appropriate conditions to uphold his faith and live a full religious life.
With regards, P.G.
Regarding the words of Achizer, see the article by Rabbi Shlomo Dichosky (former member of the Grand Court) "The Acceptance of the Stranger and the Acceptance of the Commandments", on the website "Mossaf Shabbat" Makor Rishon.
To clarify the methods of ’Ahiezer’ and Rabbi Feinstein, who discussed easing certain situations, in which there is concern that one will be forced to break certain mitzvot due to coercion – see the article by the conversion judge, Rabbi Zvi Lipshitz, ‘Definition of Accepting Mitzvot in Conversion’, on the ‘Practical’ website of the ‘Torah and Land Institute’.
Best regards, The H’G
Both the Rabbis and the Maimonides see entering the Jewish people and accepting the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven and the yoke of the Torah as two sides of the same coin. Joining the Jewish people, which the Rabbis speak of, includes accepting the Torah, for according to him, “our nation is not a nation except through its Torah.”
Likewise, “accepting the yoke of the Torah,” which the Maimonides speaks of, also includes joining the Jewish people, for “those who withdraw from the ways of the community,” although they observe the commandments and do not commit transgressions, do not share with the community in the service of the Lord, and do not rejoice in their joy and share in their sorrow. According to Maimonides, they are heretics and heretics, and according to the authors of the Haggadah, “because he excluded himself from the rule, as if he had mainly apostatized.” And so Ruth converts by saying, “Your people are my people, and your God is your God.”
With blessings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel
And whoever wrote about a nation except in its Torah decided that being a foreigner implies a desire to be part of the nation and its customs, not observance of the commandments.
And the Rambam knew Rasa’ 3
And if he wanted to disagree, he would write explicitly.
*Enough
*And its events
For some reason it seems that the rabbi is putting an elephant through the eye of a needle
and trying to draw a line between the psychological process that the convert goes through when accepting the burden of mitzvot and the requirement of the halakhah
Let's say I'm a property tax discount clerk
"Nahum" comes to me and asks for a property tax discount, presenting all the documents as is
Only that I happen to know that Nahum from the neighborhood knows that the man is wealthy and is not entitled to a property tax discount at all.
So what should I do???
B ’ Options
A. Stick to the law and as long as he abides by the law, he will receive the discount.
B. To approach the director of the property tax department and imply that the person is subject to a thorough examination
I don't know what the law says to do in such a situation, but it is reasonable to assume that in the absence of another provision, the official does not have to notify anything
Let's try to copy this to a conversion: someone comes and has some interests and understands that in order to realize them, he has to go through some process.
So one thing is clear that accepting the burden of his mitzvot is a complete fake (not from the perspective of the law, but from our perspective) just like the person who came to ask for a property tax discount and all the documents are worthless…
The only thing that the judges often do not know is his intentions
And here the question is what is incumbent on the judges
A. As long as the person goes through the official process included in the person's kirtan
B. We must be certain to a reasonable degree of certainty that the person does indeed have intentions
And apparently the requirement of the law is as option B’
It's just that in mass conversion it's difficult to meet this condition.
He says that the problem is not in the halakhic/official process of conversions,
but only in the issue of whether we are allowed to allow such a situation or not…
There is no connection whatsoever between the parable and the simile. The parable deals with formalism versus essence, and in the parable it is clear that essence is needed. In any case, this is not related to my discussion in any way because I did not deal with the question of formalism.
The distinction between accepting the obligation to observe the commandments and accepting to observe them is indeed logical on a theoretical level. But its practical expression in the most extreme form is not at all reasonable.
For it must be assumed that the immigrant, on the one hand, truly and sincerely believes with all his heart that he is now going to commit himself to many and severe punishments, to the point of death by the court, and to deserve severe torments in hell, and on the other hand, he does not even mean to himself to observe any of these. What kind of person would put himself in such a situation? Just as Judaism is not a masochistic religion, but this immigrant is a “spiritual masochist.”
Therefore, it is more likely that in such a situation the fact that he does not intend to observe anything indicates that he probably does not really believe and in any case it cannot be said that he intends to accept the punishments and obligations upon himself.
Theoretically you are probably right. In practice you are not. Many Jews who are committed to Halacha commit offenses.
Rabbi,
Thank you very much for the detail. This certainly cleared up a few points for me that came up from reading the recent discussions on the subject.
I would appreciate your comment on a few additional points in the field of conversion:
1. Today, during the conversion process, the convert is taught certain things about Judaism (views such as thought and morality, folklore such as the stories of the Bible, and holidays and laws such as putting on tefillin, etc.) From what I understand from your words, none of these are required. A person can come to a court without knowing any of the topics, not having studied any law (except circumcision and baptism) and not knowing anything about Judaism and still fully convert as long as the court is convinced that he understands the definition of a mitzvah and accepts that he will be bound by the mitzvot at the end of the process. Does the Rabbi think that there is no place in the conversion process for the other issues I referred to (and that are already happening today)?
2. I would expect that if the main reason for omitting the acceptance of the commandments in the Rambam and Shul were that this was the very process and its entire essence, we would see much more rigor and precision in additional instructions to the court on how to verify that the immigrant does understand and accept the observance of the commandments. In the sources that the rabbi mentioned, it does not appear to be part of the procedure, and it is certain that the court is required to be convinced of this in order for the conversion to be valid (after all, this is its main essence). In my opinion, it is difficult to argue that this is the reason why circumcision and immersion are required, and perhaps one could say that the awareness of some of the commandments is related to this (but it appears from the sources cited that this is not a significant portion and that the Gemara does not attach importance to this either). In the rabbi's opinion, is the reason for this to be to give freedom to the judges, or is there another reason?
Thank you
1. Maybe there is a place but there is no obligation.
2. The explanation is very simple. Those who come to convert want to convert. Otherwise, why do this nonsense? Only in rare cases, such as conversions of spouses, where there is an indication of foreign motivation, is this the case suspected (and even in this case, the conversion is valid retrospectively, so the examination is not critical). Only in our days, when there are benefits of citizenship and rights, has a phenomenon arisen that requires checking the seriousness of a convert's intentions.
On the 25th of Nissan P.B.
Ramada ”a – Shalom Rav,
It is interesting to hear that ’only in rare cases such as wife conversions do we suspect this is the case’. It is obvious and well known that most people who apply for conversion do so because they want to marry a Jew, and the family of the Jewish spouse by birth demands that they convert. Yet they open the gate for them and try to convert them in the hope that, although the initial reason is not one hundred percent ‘for the sake of heaven’ – then studying the basics of Judaism and its customs will bring the convert to its actual existence.
The simple logic is that someone who is truly interested in accepting the burden of Torah and commandments should enter a course that will give them basic knowledge of the basics of Judaism and the lifestyle of a believing Jew. Is there a person who would agree to accept a halakhic obligation without knowing and understanding ‘what it is and what it is about’. Is there a serious person who would accept a halakhic obligation as a buyer of ‘a cat in a bag’.? Someone who studied in a course that concentrates on the basics and has accompanied and stayed in religious homes in order to actually get to know the ways of people of faith – has a good chance that his ’reception of the Torah’ will be honest and true.
Problems arose in the conversion courts due to the lack of a uniform curriculum, which caused candidates to be asked questions that were not in the study material they had prepared for. Indeed, I saw that a few months ago the ‘Conversion Administration’ issued a tender to prepare a uniform curriculum for ’Conversion Studios’, and if the plan is implemented – The problem of coordinating expectations between the judges and the converts will be solved.
Best regards, Hillel Feiner-Glossinos
The leader of the traditional conversion, Rabbi Chaim Amsalem, (Shabbat Supplement, Makor Rishon, Responses to Previous Issues 827) supported his arguments with the words of Maimonides, who said that if a convert is made without proper examination of his acceptance of the mitzvot, they are “fearful of him until his righteousness is proven.” On the one hand, if he makes a kiddush, they are afraid of his kiddush, and on the other hand, they avoid marrying him and are even afraid of marrying him until the sincerity of his acceptance of the mitzvot is proven.
So what good did the Sages do with their ruling? If after receiving the “conversion certificate,” the halakhic status of the convert remains in doubt, what did the convert gain from it?
On the other hand, in the state conversion system, where the convert comes to a thorough study and understanding of Judaism, its beliefs and customs, and the court is impressed by the sincerity of the acceptance of the Torah and its commandments, the “conversion certificate” is a strong indication that he is a “righteous immigrant” in the full sense of the word, since the bearer of the certificate, who has invested in studying Judaism and passed the tests and interviews, does indeed desire the Torah and its commandments.
With greetings, the P.G.
Thanks for the answer,
So, following the changing situation (in our time there are additional motivations) should additional actions be added to circumcision and baptism that are intended to verify its intention?
I explained. This is not a formal requirement in the halakhic process (beyond the announcement of the commandments, which is also controversial). But it is clear that the judge must verify that he has indeed come to convert.
Who is a Jew, a letter of reply to David Ben-Gurion
(6th of Hanukkah 5719)
To the Minister of Ministers, Prime Minister, His Excellency David Ben-Gurion, may God bless him and grant him peace,
Your kindness has encouraged me to ask me what the law is for children of mixed marriages, whose parents, both the father and the mother, want to register their children as Jews. I am the peace of the faithful of Israel, who are peaceable and faithful to the Torah, as interpreted by the Sages and their words were recorded in the Shulchan Aruch. And I have nothing to add to their words or to subtract from their words. May God increase your peace, increase your strength, and elevate your honor by virtue of your faithful deeds that will never be forgotten by our people.
Yours sincerely,
S. Y. Agnon
So as not to take the paper out of print. Forty-nine years ago I celebrated Passover in Sejera, and there I heard an old Ger Tzedek say something like this: You who have the right of the fathers, when you transgress the religion of the Torah, the Blessed One does not scruple with you so much, but we who do not have the right of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all our right is to observe the commandments and observe the religion, the Blessed One judges us for every offense, whether minor or serious.
With your permission, I will add something that I was not asked about. Religion and state, for now, are like two neighbors that are not comfortable with each other. And you, whose peace and well-being depend on you, it would be better for you to withdraw your hand from discussing religious matters, whether good or bad, so that your mind will be free for the affairs of the state.
I hope you do not see in my words a hint of reproach or the like. It is only because I cherish you and respect you and desire your well-being that I allowed myself to write what I wrote.
Peace be with you, and peace be with all that you have.
(S. Agnon, from myself to myself)
Regarding what the Rabbi brought evidence of, that we too sin, that understanding the meaning of the act does not necessarily prevent its commission. I would like to clarify a certain point.
When we (Jews of Jerusalem) sin, even if by active action, it is not done out of an active choice, but rather
it is done out of an uncontrollable impulse when the choice to be enslaved to the will of the Almighty is not strong enough to stand against it.
And all this happens at zero time when the desire to sin is before our eyes.
But one who chooses in advance not to fulfill a single mitzvah. Even something that everyone fails in, is clearly not subordinating his will to the will of the Creator, which is the most basic definition of accepting the yoke of a mitzvah.
Absolutely not true. If that were the description then we would all be exempt from punishment as rapists. See Torrey on Weakness of Will 172-3.
My point was not that we are unable to control impulses and are without choice,
but that our “falls” do not express our true will but rather constitute a “surrender” to our impulses and desires.
and are done more impulsively
And of course we are punished for this surrender,
but someone who chooses in an informed and calculated manner not to enter into this struggle between desire and impulses
is undoubtedly expressing an unwillingness to subject himself to a new set of rules,
and certainly does not properly grasp the meaning of reward and punishment.
There is no difference. If that person estimates that he will pass because of his instincts, that is just like us. This does not contradict the acceptance of a commandment. Of course, if in the assessment of the Jewish Law there is no acceptance of a commandment here, then he is not a convert. I am only arguing that there is no necessity, and his assessment of what he has studied is at most an indication and not a fundamental flaw in conversion.
“Maybe he even thinks that there are certain laws that he will not even try to observe in advance, and that is perfectly fine in terms of the validity of the conversion (of course it is not halachically okay). All that is required is his understanding that this obliges him and that he will be punished, and that he accepts this upon himself when converting.”
Less accurate.
If this is interesting here, someone will see comment 3 below
that I responded to Rabbi Melamed Shalit”a on the above subject in Parashat Shemini
in his third article out of seven explanatory articles he has published so far on conversion
https://yhb.org.il/shiurim/revivim988/
Here are more mixes that I talked about in the column: https://mobile.srugim.co.il/article/674513
In the Sa'd 32 Ba'Omer p. 2
The explanation put forward by some of the latter that the convert is obligated to all the mitzvot, their rewards and punishments, even if he does not keep all the mitzvot - then accepting his mitzvot in full - can be useful in cases where it can be assumed that the convert's belief in the validity of the halakha is complete, and only compulsion leads them to break some of the mitzvot.
This situation was common in places where it was not possible to find work without violating Shabbat, and there were complete communities where everyone was a believer but the necessity of making a living led them to break Shabbat with a heavy heart. In such a community, there was room to teach the convert a right that his acceptance of the mitzvot is complete and only because of the pressure of making a living, etc., he would break them.
In our country, where most of the economy is closed on Shabbat - It is difficult to assume that someone who does not observe Shabbat – believes in the binding validity of the commandments of Shabbat and that only necessity leads to its desecration. Usually, this is someone with a secular worldview who does not accept the validity of Halacha, and in such a case, what good would it do to light candles and perform Kiddush in folklore without believing in the binding validity of Halacha?
When a person takes a basic course in a conversion school to get to know Judaism, its foundations and customs, and stays in the homes of Torah and mitzvot observant people in order to get to know the life of the observant people up close – there is more indication of the sincerity of accepting the mitzvot at the time, but when it is clear to the court in advance that the convert is not going to keep Shabbat and kvass – it is very difficult to seriously assume that he believes in their binding validity.
Greetings, Eliam Fishel Werkheimer
I learned this division from the writings of Rabbi Eliezer Melamed himself years ago, who divided between an individual joining a traditional community, which some of the latter have made light of, but there is no lesson to be learned from this for many converts who see themselves as ’secular’ and do not accept the Halacha as a binding law upon them. I do not know what brought about his change of mind?
Aya, wrote:
To the honorable Rabbi Shalom
I read the Rabbi's column on traditional conversion by Rabbi Melamed and I must say that on Shabbat I studied Responsa Yabia Umar, Part 11, Sign 29, Letter 13, where Rabbi Ovadia explicitly brings a side of traditional conversion as the Rabbi says in the column who accepts that it is forbidden and that it is permitted despite his lack of strength to perform mitzvot and does not reject the idea except towards the end of the writer and the late and we must settle on this further. It is interesting that Rabbi Y. Yosef did not remember his father's reply (this part of the reply is on page
Forgot and maybe that is why he forgot?)
In the 28th of Sivan, 2nd of February
To Ya, Shalom Rav,
The difference is clear: A person who accepts that he is obligated in all the laws but does not have the strength to keep all the commandments - he believes 100% in the binding validity of the law, but violates some of its commandments out of compulsion. We cannot learn from this to accept people who are secular in their beliefs who do not believe in the binding validity of the Torah, even if they agree to keep some customs as beautiful folklore - there is no acceptance of the binding validity of the law here.
Moreover, the phenomenon of people of the type that Rabbi Uziel spoke of, who believe with complete faith in the validity of the law even if they do not keep the commandments in full - It was common in the Diaspora, where all the farms were open on Shabbat, and it was very difficult to find work without desecrating Shabbat, so there were many Jews who went to synagogue early and were forced with a heavy heart to go to work on Shabbat. In our country, there is almost no such compulsion, and those who desecrate Shabbat do so because they do not believe in the Torah.
With regards, Yaron Fishel Ordner
In the lecture of the rabbi on the problems of conversion in our time (at the Torah Conference of Sheva, 5751, Mesha Ovadia, Et Teka and later), the rabbi states that if there is a clear estimate that the immigrant is not going to fulfill the mitzvot, it should not be accepted, and there is also a situation where the estimate will result in the retroactive cancellation of the conversion. I copied some of his words in my comments to Rabbi Neuwirth's article, Inspiration Instead of Strictness, on the website Musaf Shabbat Makor Rishon.
With greetings, Yifa'r
I accept the first part, it makes sense from the explanation and is anchored in the sources. Regarding the second part, what kind of acceptance of the commandments is in question, I don't think you've provided a source, but only an explanation, and even there it is possible to reach a different, more reasonable conclusion.
For example, if we let someone keep something, we try to estimate the likelihood that he will keep the object for us. It's not enough for us that he knows that if he doesn't keep it, he will be punished, but we also want a reasonable estimate that he will make a reasonable effort to keep it. Similarly, with conversion, it is more reasonable in my opinion to expect an immigrant to make a reasonable effort to keep a commandment and not just be aware that he is obligated and otherwise will be punished.
That's if you're looking for actual guarding. But if you're looking for a definition of a guard, it's enough that he's a person who understands that his job is to guard.