Causality: D. Prayer for a Miracle (Column 463)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In the previous three columns I argued that causal relations have three components: the temporal, the logical, and the physical. I then noted the difficulty of treating the physical component formally (symbolically). In the last column I concluded that the logical component of the cause defines the cause as a sufficient (and not necessary) condition for the effect. One implication of this conclusion concerned God’s involvement in the world. I argued that if the laws of nature are a sufficient condition, then there is no divine involvement within nature. In principle, divine involvement in the world could still occur (though in my personal view it likely does not), but it would always be as a departure from nature.
This, of course, raises the question of prayer and its effectiveness. If we conclude that God is not involved in the world, then there is no point in asking Him for anything. That is the question of effectiveness, an empirical question, but I have discussed it more than once in the past, and therefore I will not enter into it here. In this column I wish to discuss a halakhic question: even if we assume that He is involved in the world, since we have seen that such involvement entails departing from nature, is it prohibited to ask for such involvement? At first glance this halakhic question seems very surprising and quite implausible. The Talmud and the halakhic authorities are full of permission and even obligation to ask God for our needs, in prayer and otherwise. How can one say that this is prohibited? This question has already been mentioned here several times (see, for example, here, here, here and here), but as far as I recall it has yet to receive its own dedicated place. Along the way I will occasionally remark on the factual plane, insofar as it arises.
The sugya of praying about the past
The Mishnah in Berakhot 9:3 (Berakhot 54a) states:
And one who cries out about the past—this is a vain prayer. If his wife was pregnant and he says, “May it be His will that my wife bear a male,” this is a vain prayer. If he was on the road and heard a scream in the city and says, “May it be His will that this not be from my house,” this is a vain prayer.
A person who prays that the fetus in his wife’s womb be male—this is a vain prayer. And likewise one who prays about an event that has already happened. The conclusion is that a prayer about an event that has already happened (a prayer about the past) is a vain prayer. From the language of the Mishnah one might understand that there is no prohibition, only that it is pointless and ineffective (that is the meaning of “vain”). If this is the Mishnah’s meaning, then the Mishnah is essentially saying that God does not depart from nature (we shall see below that a prayer about the past is nothing but a prayer for a miracle), i.e., He is not involved in the world (for, as we have seen, any involvement of His is a departure from nature), and therefore such requests are in vain. It is no wonder, then, that the halakhic authorities commonly explain that the Mishnah intends to say that there is a prohibition (see, for example, at the end of the thread here)[1]. The reason for the prohibition is unclear. Some wished to say that it diminishes our merits in the World to Come, or that this is an improper use of God—that is, attempting to cause Him to act against His policy. Perhaps the prohibition stems from a concern about a negative impact on believers if the prayer is not answered (for God does not obligate Himself to perform miracles and depart from nature). For our purposes here it suffices that there is a prohibition.
And behold, the Gemara there (60a) explains:
If his wife was pregnant and he said, “May it be His will that she bear…,” this is a vain prayer and mercy will not avail.
The Gemara explains that since the woman is already pregnant, the prayer is in vain, and even adds that it does not help (“it is ineffective”). Here we already have a factual assertion that what has already occurred cannot be changed, beyond the halakhic prohibition. Perhaps these two statements depend on each other: such a request does not help, and therefore it is also prohibited to make it.
Now the Gemara raises a difficulty from precedents where people did pray about the past:
Rav Yosef challenged: “And afterwards she bore a daughter, and she called her name Dinah.” What is “and afterwards”? Rav said: After Leah judged (danah) herself and said: “Twelve tribes are destined to come forth from Jacob; six have come from me and four from the maidservants—behold ten. If this one is a male, my sister Rachel will not be like one of the maidservants.” Immediately it was turned into a female, as it is said: “And she called her name Dinah.”
It appears that prayer can indeed change reality.
The Gemara there gives two answers. The first:
We do not cite miraculous occurrences.
There it was a miracle, and we are dealing with the normal course of nature. The commentators explain that our sugya is not dealing with prayer for a miracle. From this answer it follows that a miracle can occur; it is merely prohibited to pray for it. Moreover, from the wording of this answer it is quite clear that there is a prohibition on such prayer (and not merely that it is ineffective, since in practice it can be effective)[2]. Indeed, in the Jerusalem Talmud (Ta’anit 3) and in the halakhic authorities it is stated that it is prohibited to pray for a miracle, and such a prayer is like a vain prayer.
However, several commentators have noted that it follows from here that perfectly righteous individuals like Leah may also request a miracle (see, for example, Gevurat Ari to Ta’anit 19). But it is worth noting that such a leniency is not brought by the halakhic authorities (Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and their commentaries). Therefore, even if in your view there are among us righteous people like our mother Leah, the authorities hold that there are not, and thus, in their opinion, this leniency, even if it exists, is irrelevant in practice. Accordingly, from here on I will ignore the question of the righteous, while asking forgiveness from all dear readers who belong to that group.
The second answer in the Gemara there:
And if you wish, say: Leah’s case was within forty days, as it was taught: During the first three days a person should pray that it not putrefy; from three to forty [days] he should pray that it be male; from forty days to three months he should pray that it not be a sandal; from three months to six he should pray that it not be a miscarriage; from six to nine he should pray that it come out in peace.
Here it seems the Gemara already assumes that even the righteous cannot request a change to an existing reality, but that up to forty days the sex of the embryo has not yet been determined. Moreover, the Gemara says that at every stage of pregnancy one can pray for what has not yet been determined.
This answer is the one brought by the halakhic authorities, which strengthens my conclusion above that the leniency for the righteous is irrelevant in practice. Perhaps this means that God does not perform such miracles even for the righteous, since His policy is not to intervene. This is not a question of the person’s level of merit (whether I “deserve” such intervention), in which case there would be room to distinguish between the righteous and ordinary people, but rather a divine policy (He wishes to run His world by way of nature). But as noted, here our concern is the halakhic question (whether such prayer is permitted), so I will not enter the factual question (whether God is involved in the world).
The Gemara there continues, clarifying how a situation can exist in which the matter has not yet been determined at that stage of pregnancy:
And will prayer help? But did not Rav Yitzḥak son of Rav Ami say: If the man emits seed first, she bears a female; if the woman emits seed first, she bears a male, as it is said: “A woman who conceives and bears a male.” With what are we dealing here? With a case where both emitted simultaneously.
Apparently, the sex of the newborn is determined already at conception and not at forty days. The Gemara answers that the case is where both partners emitted seed at the same time, and in such a case the sex is not determined at conception but at forty days. True, we do not know who emitted first, and thus we have no way to know in a specific case whether the sex of the fetus is still open. But it suffices that such a possibility exists to reject the claim that it is a vain prayer. In a case of doubt one may pray, and even that only up to forty days, for after that the sex is already fixed.
The halakhic authorities conclude that one should not pray for something miraculous, such as changing a female to a male or vice versa. A prayer to change reality is a vain prayer. Thus rules the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chayim §230:1):
One who prays about what has already occurred—for example, he entered a city and heard a scream in the city and said: “May it be [His] will that this scream not be from my house”; or his wife was pregnant more than forty days and he said: “May it be [His] will that my wife bear a male”—this is a vain prayer. Rather, a person should pray about what is yet to come and give thanks for what has passed…
For the past one may give thanks but not pray. Prayer is only for the future, i.e., for what has not yet occurred. One must not pray for a departure from nature.[3] As noted, he brings as normative law only the Gemara’s second answer, as above.
Perhaps you wonder why I shifted here from prayer about the past to prayer to change reality, and essentially to prayer for a miracle. These are not identical expressions, but substantively there is no difference between them. I already noted that the halakhic authorities (following the Yerushalmi in Ta’anit) state that one must not pray for a miracle, and not only about the past. I will sharpen this by removing from the table two distinctions likely to be raised here: the distinction between an overt miracle and a hidden miracle, and the distinction between past and future.
Is there a distinction between praying for an overt miracle and praying for a hidden miracle?
There is a tendency to think that the prohibition applies only to praying for an overt miracle, but not for a hidden miracle. What is the difference? Perhaps because we do not want people to be disappointed and lose their faith if, in the end, a miracle does not occur. With a hidden miracle no one knows whether a miracle occurred or not. Of course, there is the other side of the coin: if in the end a hidden miracle does occur, then there is no risk that people will deny it and attribute it to nature, for the same reason—one cannot know whether it occurred. Believers will remain believers and deniers will remain deniers. In short, according to this thesis, divine involvement or an answer to prayer is a thesis not subject to refutation or confirmation. The moment it is subject to refutation or confirmation, it is prohibited to deploy it. Convenient enough, no?
One might attempt to infer this from the very sugya in Berakhot. The Gemara there speaks of one who was on the road and prays about a disaster that has already occurred, asking that it not be from his household. One may wonder why it speaks of someone on the road, rather than of one who already saw that his family members died and asks that they come back to life. Seemingly, this is a difference between a hidden and an overt miracle. The novelty is that even if he is on the road, since the matter is public and others have already seen what happened, this would be an overt miracle, and one may not pray for it. This could also explain the difference between the righteous and ordinary people: the righteous are worthy of a miracle and will not be disappointed if it does not occur. But as noted, this distinction is not ruled as law.
Moreover, a closer look at the sugya itself shows that this distinction is incorrect. The second example in the Mishnah is praying about a fetus in the mother’s womb. When I ask to change the sex of the fetus after one hundred days (by then it is certainly a vain prayer), even if God were to perform a miracle and change the fetus’s sex from female to male, it would be a hidden miracle, for all this occurs in the womb. As is known, in that era there was no ultrasound (and at fifty days, to my knowledge, even ultrasound does not yet reveal the sex). So why is the prayer deemed a vain prayer? From here we have evidence that the prohibition also applies to praying for a hidden miracle. So long as it entails a departure from nature, one may not request it.
Note that, in principle, a surgeon can (or will be able to in the future) perform in-utero surgery to change the sex of the fetus, and in that case it would be a change within the framework of nature and science. I assume that most halakhic authorities would not say that such an operation is prohibited because it interferes with nature. It is no greater an interference than curing cancer or any other disease (as is known, the physician has been given permission to heal).[4] And is it conceivable that one may not ask God to do something that a human surgeon can do? The answer is yes: divine involvement, unlike an operation performed by a human being, is a departure from nature. One must not ask God to interfere with nature, even in something a human being can do.
Is there a distinction between praying about the past and praying about the future?
I have heard some argue that one may request miracles, but not miracles that change the past. But this too does not withstand the facts. I request that God change the sex of the fetus from now on (not retroactively and not retroactive-from-now-on). This is not a request to change the past. For all I care, let the fetus have been formed as female, and now God will change its sex to male. As was said: “The past is gone, the future not yet, and the present is as the blink of an eye—whence worry?!” So why is this prohibited? The conclusion is that even if I request a change to the present or the future, so long as the future depends on the past and has already been set by it, this is a vain prayer.
Conclusion of the sugya
The conclusion that emerges from our discussion thus far: any request of God to change reality—whether in the past or in the future (in a case where the future has already been determined by the past)—is a vain prayer. We have also seen that there is no difference between an overt change of reality and a hidden change. Any request for divine involvement that departs from nature is a vain prayer.
When is the sex of the fetus determined?
I hold the heretical and progressive view (this old communist expression has enjoyed a revival and become a pejorative of late) that we now possess scientific knowledge that the Sages did not have. For example, with respect to the sex of the newborn, science today knows that it is determined at the moment the sperm meets the egg. Here is a passage from the infomed site:
The sex of the newborn is determined the moment the sperm meets the egg. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, a boy will be born; if it carries an X chromosome, a girl will be born…
The natures of the sperm and egg determine the sex that will result from their meeting.[5] If so, the Gemara’s assumption that the sex of the newborn remains an open question until forty days after conception is false. The sex is fixed from the beginning of the pregnancy.
Halakhic ramifications
Does this change the law? Very likely yes. Once this is the knowledge we possess, the prohibition to pray about the sex of the fetus applies from the moment the sperm meets the egg. It seems that today such a prayer would be permitted only before intercourse.
But if we continue in that line of thought, we will find that, in fact, even before intercourse it is a vain prayer. In truth, the entire natural causal chain is deterministic, and each stage is determined by the preceding stages. Even the meeting of sperm and egg is a natural event and is governed by the laws of nature and circumstances. What determines which sperm and which egg meet is a very complex process that cannot be predicted, but it is still a deterministic process. Even the decision about the time of intercourse between father and mother, or even the choice of spouse—which are, of course, the primary influences on the identity of the sperm and egg that will participate in fertilization—are determined by a combination of the laws of nature and human choices.
Note that this description is a corollary of the picture presented in the previous column, according to which circumstances and the laws of nature (and now I will add: human choices) are a sufficient condition for everything that happens in the world. According to the conclusion of the sugya in Berakhot, in effect one cannot pray for anything that happens in the world. There is nothing that is not fixed by the laws of nature, and any divine involvement that does not depart from nature does not exist. If there is a prohibition to pray for a departure from nature, then there remains no place for prayer at all.
Note: I have not addressed here at all my view that nowadays God is not involved in the world. That is a different claim (on the factual plane), and my words here stand independently of it. Even if He is involved in every step we take, still, from our sugya it emerges that there is a halakhic prohibition to request it. Of course, if you assume that the sugya also states as a fact that He does not depart from nature (not that He cannot, but that this is His policy) and therefore there is no point in requesting it, and not merely that it prohibits praying for it, then the conclusion remains the same: both prohibited and pointless to pray for anything. But such an interpretation (which is stated almost explicitly in the sugya: “it does not avail”) turns the Sages into heretics like me, so for the sake of our discussion here I will not assume it. Even if we assume that God is involved, there is still a prohibition to ask Him for it.
Two kinds of randomness
To understand this better, I must sharpen a point that many tend to ignore (it was laid out well in column 326). We habitually treat various events in the world as if they were random: tossing a coin or a die, a chance meeting on the street, and the like. But these have nothing to do with randomness in the essential sense. A coin toss is a completely deterministic mechanical process, and if I knew the initial conditions (the circumstances)—namely, air density, the die’s exact shape, the initial velocity (magnitude and direction)—I could tell you how it will land. This is a calculation using the laws of Newtonian mechanics, elementary physics. Our inability to do so stems from the practical complexity of the calculation and the strong sensitivity of the outcome to initial conditions. But that is only a technical difficulty. In principle, in all such cases the circumstances and the laws of nature uniquely determine the outcome.
All the cases you normally regard as random (perhaps excepting quantum theory, which is irrelevant at these scales) are of this kind. They are all deterministic, and we use probabilistic tools only due to a technical difficulty. So it is with all events in the world known to us, and therefore all are subject to deterministic causality. This means that in our world everything that happens is the product of prior circumstances and the laws of nature. A chance encounter between a lion and a monkey, a particular weather pattern prevailing in a given region, the mood of human beings, and more—all these are products of the laws of nature and the circumstances that constitute a sufficient condition for them. Therefore, any divine involvement that would produce a different result (different weather, a different mood, a different encounter, and so on) is a departure from the laws of nature. Hence, a request that God intervene in something in the world is a departure from the laws of nature. The expression “a request for divine involvement without departing from nature” is an empty oxymoron. This holds for determining the sex of the newborn, a house fire, a dog’s attack on a baby, a pandemic, a tsunami, cancer or its cure, and any other event you can think of. There may be complexity, but the processes are deterministic, and involvement in them is a departure from the laws of nature. So what, in fact, is there to pray for? It seems: nothing.
And what about human choice?
I noted above that beyond the laws of nature and natural circumstances there is another factor influencing events in the world: human choice. Could divine involvement not enter via influencing human choice? Our decision whether, when, and with whom to have intercourse is the result of our free will, and therefore perhaps one could pray that God direct it so that the sperm and egg that meet will produce a male or female, as we desire.
To this I say two things: First, even if that is correct, prayer about the sex of the newborn would retreat much further back—before we even decided when to have intercourse. Certainly not after forty days from conception. Beyond this, as I will now explain, in my understanding even such involvement is, in a sense, a departure from nature.
The Sages say: “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven,” meaning that everything is done by God except for our deeds. If so, precisely in human actions He is not expected to intervene. In my view this is probably not the meaning of that dictum, since natural processes are “in the hands of Heaven” only in the sense that they are not in our hands but in the hands of the laws of nature (which themselves, of course, were created by God). What is in our hands are decisions pertaining to fear of Heaven—that is, decisions with moral significance. These are entrusted to us and our free choice. In any case, our actions certainly are not in Heaven’s hands, nor in the hands of the laws of nature. That dictum indeed rejects the deterministic claim that the laws of nature determine our choices and decisions.
Therefore, as I have been asked more than once (mainly by Oren, the site’s editor—see, for example, here and also here), one may wonder whether God might be involved in the world by influencing our choices, human beings. If these are not deterministic processes, then, ostensibly, divine involvement that does not depart from the laws of nature could occur there. According to this proposal, our prayer about the sex of the fetus, or about anything else, could be answered by divine intervention in the decisions of the human beings involved in the events—for example, decisions about whom to marry, when to have intercourse, and so on. This would be involvement that does not depart from nature (more precisely: the events themselves are not part of nature, and therefore my arguments here do not preclude divine involvement in them).
However, even regarding such human decisions there are only two possibilities: 1) They were made not out of moral considerations but simply because both partners felt like having intercourse on that day. In that case it is a natural event with natural causes. The human body is also part of the physical world. Divine involvement in such a process is certainly a departure from the laws of nature. 2) They were made out of moral considerations (choosing that particular spouse or that particular time for intercourse). But if so, then again it is unlikely that God would intervene, for such decisions are precisely entrusted to us and our free choice (“Everything is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven”). In other words, just as His policy is not to intervene in the workings of nature and its laws, so too He refrains from intervening in our free choices. Just as He refrains from an intervention that contradicts natural processes, He refrains from an intervention that contradicts free choice.[6] Put differently: it is implausible to interpret my prayer as asking God to take away my choice of when to have intercourse. And even if the intent is not that He take away my choice but that this act is not a choice, and I am asking that God direct it to the right moment—this too is involvement that departs from the laws of nature, for were it not for the involvement, a particular moment would have been chosen by virtue of the laws of nature (recall that the human being is part of nature).
So what did the Gemara have in mind?
The conclusion is that, according to the sugya in Berakhot, there is no permission to pray for anything. Every event that occurs here is either a natural event with sufficient natural causes or a voluntary event entrusted to human free choice (which is the sufficient condition for it). Now the question arises: if this is indeed the conclusion of the sugya, what did the Sages think? They surely spoke of permitted requests in prayer. If every involvement is a departure from nature, and asking for a departure from nature is prohibited, then in what cases may one request anything? What did the Sages themselves mean when they spoke of requests to God? For example, the sugya rules that a request to change the sex of the fetus before forty days from conception is certainly permitted halakhically.
My claim is that the Sages erred in understanding natural reality (they lacked scientific knowledge). They thought there are open questions in nature, i.e., situations where circumstances do not dictate the outcome. Such “margins” mean that, given circumstances X, at least two different outcomes—Y and Z—can develop. For example, under circumstances prevailing before forty days (X), the newborn’s sex can be male (Y) or female (Z). But it turns out they were mistaken about this. According to current scientific knowledge, there are no such open states; i.e., there are no margins in nature.
Halakhic analysis: practical conclusion
The assumption is that the Talmud has the authority to determine halakhah and we do not dispute it. What, then, should we learn from the sugya in Berakhot? As noted, there are two claims in it: 1) A factual-scientific claim: there are margins in nature. 2) A halakhic-normative claim: it is prohibited to pray for involvement that departs from nature (i.e., to ask to change the outcome where there are no margins). We have seen that the factual claim is false, but this is not a principled problem. The Sages were often wrong in factual-scientific determinations. They were human beings like you and me and were equipped with the scientific knowledge of their time; therefore, there is no obligation to adopt their factual determinations. The Talmud’s authority does not extend to factual claims. That authority means that their normative claims are binding halakhah—especially where they are not dependent on any factual assumption.
So if we adopt claim 2 (for it is normative and therefore binding) and replace claim 1 with the more up-to-date information (that there are no margins in nature), the logically necessary conclusion is that there is no situation in which divine involvement occurs within the framework of nature, and therefore there is no permission to pray for anything. Note well: prayers for the healing of a sick person or for rescue from trouble, like any other request, are all halakhically prohibited.
I emphasize again that this conclusion does not depend on my heretical view that nowadays there is likely no divine involvement in the world. Even if such involvement exists—and this is certainly what the Sages thought—still, as we have seen, there is a halakhic prohibition to request it. For the same reason, do not challenge me from sugyot that state one may pray for a sick person. That stems from the mistaken assumption that healing a disease is an open matter and thus divine involvement can occur there without departing from nature.
“He who goes to measure his threshing floor”
There is a parallel sugya that seems to contradict our conclusion (it was cited in the thread here). The Gemara in Bava Metzia 42a says:
And Rabbi Yitzḥak said: Blessing is found only in something hidden from the eye, as it is said, “The Lord will command the blessing with you in your storehouses (asamekha).” The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught: Blessing is found only in something over which the eye has no power, as it is said, “The Lord will command the blessing with you in your storehouses.”
The Gemara’s premise is that there is divine involvement in the world.
Now a baraita is brought:
Our Rabbis taught: One who goes to measure his threshing floor says, “May it be Your will, Lord our God, that You send blessing in the work of our hands.” If he began measuring he says, “Blessed is He who sends blessing in this heap.” If he measured and only afterward prayed, this is a vain prayer, for blessing is not found in a weighed thing, nor in a measured thing, nor in a counted thing, but only in a thing hidden from the eye, as it is said, “The Lord will command the blessing with you in your storehouses.”
That is, if a person has not measured his grain, it is deemed hidden from the eye, and therefore blessing may rest upon it and it is fitting to request that. Once it has been measured, it is already revealed, and one should no longer pray over it. We see that the Gemara ties permission to request to whether the matter is revealed or hidden—i.e., whether it is a hidden or overt miracle. One requests a hidden miracle, not an overt one. But according to this sugya it seems that the very request to depart from nature is permitted. Rather, one may request only a hidden miracle, even if it entails a departure from nature and even if it concerns the past (for the grain is already in the threshing floor even if it has not yet been measured).
So rules the Rambam as well (Laws of Blessings 10:22):
One who goes to measure his threshing floor says, “May it be Your will, Lord my God, that You send blessing in the work of my hands.” If he began to measure he says, “Blessed is He who sends blessing in this heap.” If he measured and only then beseeched mercy, this is a vain prayer. And anyone who cries out about the past—this is a vain prayer.
He even links this to our sugya. And so it is in the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chayim §230:2).
The contradiction to the Berakhot sugya
However, the conclusion of this sugya not only contradicts my words above but also the sugya in Berakhot itself. There we saw that one must not request a change of the fetus’s sex, even though that would be a hidden miracle (no one knows its sex before birth). Therefore, in any case, do not blame me.
One might understand that there is a dispute between the sugyot (and indeed the Rambam omitted the Berakhot sugya from his code, though the Shulchan Aruch brings both). I once saw in the name of the Meiri that he wrote that the request here is that he succeed in commerce with this grain, and not about the quantity of grain—which would be a change of nature. That view leaves our earlier conclusion intact (though, as I explained above, even a request for success in commerce is a request to change nature. The Meiri apparently thought that here there is a margin). But that interpretation is difficult to square with the sugya itself, for that he could pray even after measuring. We have seen someone who wrote (see here) to distinguish between changing the laws of physics (permitted) and changing the laws of logic (prohibited). But as I responded there, this is a mistaken distinction, for even prayer to change the fetus’s sex is a change in the laws of physics, not of logic. We pray that God perform in-utero surgery to change the sex. There should be no difference between before forty days and after forty days.
What seems to me most plausible is that this is a special law regarding tithes specifically (see here), because there the Torah promises that the matter will bring us blessing (“And I will pour out for you a blessing”), and as is known, with tithes it is even permitted to “test” God. But regarding everything else one must not request a departure from nature. According to this, my words stand as is—except regarding tithes. It seems the Sages assumed that the amount of grain in the threshing floor is an open matter until it is measured (depending on its nature on account of God’s blessing), and thus subject to change.[7] In light of my words above, it is likely that even in this they were factually mistaken, but the normative principle (that one must not pray to change reality where there are no margins) remains in place.
Either way, at least from the Berakhot sugya it emerges that there is no possibility to ask God to intervene in the world. The Bava Metzia sugya perhaps disagrees, or perhaps exempts only the matter of tithes, or perhaps it too is mistaken. But it seems our conclusion stands.
[1] Perhaps like a vain oath (shevu’at shav), which is also prohibited. Just as there is a prohibition to bear the Name of God in vain, there may be a prohibition to address Him in vain.
[2] And perhaps for one who is not righteous it will not avail.
[3] See on this also the words of the Vilna Gaon (brought in Imrei No’am, Berakhot ad loc.) and the Bekhor Shor (Shabbat 21b; his words are cited in Sha’arei Teshuvah §187:2).
[4] One could debate whether such surgery constitutes healing, but that is not our topic here.
[5] See there how the mother’s condition (who has two X chromosomes) also influences the newborn’s sex.
[6] Involvement in our decisions that does not contradict free choice is impossible—exactly as I explained at the end of the previous column regarding involvement within nature.
[7] In Keli Ḥemdah, Exodus p. 157, col. 3, he proves from here that grain added by virtue of blessing is obligated in tithes, for otherwise they would not have permitted praying about it, lest one separate from exempt produce on obligated produce. This would seem to indicate that such additional “blessing” is deemed a natural matter.
Assuming that you are right that the Zeals were mistaken in their understanding of natural reality, it is not reasonable to say that if they did recognize natural reality, they would prohibit the entire concept of prayer and supplication (because every supplication is essentially a request for a forbidden miracle), but rather that they would permit praying even for a miracle.
And if so, the obvious halachic conclusion is that it is permissible to pray even for a miracle, isn't it?
First, I'm not sure that this is indeed what they would have determined. If there was a point in not praying for a miracle, then maybe they would have said not to pray. But beyond that, there is no standing for the question of what the sages would have done. The question is what they actually did and whether it is binding. Their authority is not because they are always the most right, but because what they determine has a binding status. And as long as they haven't determined, even if I knew they would have determined X, there is no standing.
Even according to you, we differ from the words of Chazal and their authority since they did not recognize science, so why don't we go one step further and say that if they recognized science they would allow praying for a miracle?
In my opinion, it is unlikely that Chazal would abolish the concept of prayer, since it is central to the Bible and Judaism in general
I have already explained everything. The sages have no authority over facts. Therefore, not accepting a fact they wrote does not change their authority. But there is authority for their normative determination.
In the Bible, it is not written that it is forbidden to pray about a miracle, only that there is no mention of a miracle, meaning that there is no consideration of a miracle since it does not usually happen, and in that case, it is a vain prayer. But if we understand that the whole matter of providence and every time a prayer is answered is actually a miracle, then again there is no reason why there is no mention of a miracle and it is not a vain prayer to pray about it.
The Jerusalemite writes that one can pray about the sex of the fetus until it is born
It is possible that he disagrees with the Gemara completely
Or the reason that it is forbidden to pray about a miracle is because
The one who asks feels that it is very far from happening
His prayer resembles a strange chatter that is not true when it is not
This is evident in the Hadith
And there is no one as naive as the rationalists who wander around
On this site, perhaps it is forbidden to pray even about a hidden miracle
The Ramban (whose view is also that every prayer is actually about a miracle, like the parting of the Red Sea, as he puts it), distinguishes between a miracle according to the custom of the world and a miracle that is not according to the custom of the world, and according to his view the difference is whether luck changes or whether something changes within the world (see also the beginning of Parashat Va'ara regarding the difference between the name of the Lord and the name of the Lord, and in Parashat HaShalio, and on the verse "Not as the land of Egypt, etc."; "The eyes of the Lord are always upon it, etc."). And according to this, one must distinguish between one who prays about a miracle that is not according to the custom of the world (such as changing the sex of the fetus), which is forbidden, and one who prays about a miracle that is according to the custom of the world. And according to our science, perhaps one must distinguish between what happens at the quantum level and what happens within the world, or something similar to that.
I didn't understand the difference. I understand the difference between a hidden and an overt miracle, but what is a miracle that is according to the custom of the world? As I have shown, every miracle deviates from the custom of the world.
As I wrote, the Ramban distinguishes between a change of fortune and a change of history (see what I mentioned above in parentheses), even though both are actual miracles. A change of fortune is one of the most common miracles, as is a change of history, such as the parting of the Red Sea, etc. As the Ramban says at the beginning of Parashat Vaara, the difference between a hidden and an overt miracle is not only that it is seen and that it is not, but that it happens at a different level.
I didn't understand the difference nor the underlying logic.
This Torah is a wonderful example of the level of absurdity (and obscurity) that Rabbi Michi has reached.
According to him, Elijah on Mount Carmel actually violated a prohibition (accidentally or by mistake). And so did Elisha and Elijah in the death of the child. But even in their concepts, the descent of fire from heaven and the resuscitation of the dead is not in the realm of randomness (forty days after the creation of the child) but a real miracle that contradicts the laws of nature (even in the biblical period there were laws of nature. People probably noticed that objects fall to the ground, for example. Or that the sun rises every 24 hours)
So even they violated the prohibition intentionally. So as a ”punishment” for the offense, the Almighty decided to answer their prayer.
This is definitely a new type of autism. If the conclusion is ridiculous, then the problem is of course in the assumptions. Or in the way of inference. That is how a rational person works. Of course, the point is that a prayer for a past event is different from just a prayer for a miracle. Uprooting the past uproots all meaning from history. One could also argue that the Holocaust would be abrogated retrospectively. Or that Adam the First would not have sinned at the Tree of Knowledge. That would uproot all meaning of choosing between good and evil and reward and punishment and, in fact, of every goal and purpose in human existence. But not every miracle is a cancellation of the past event. Scientific determinism is not really necessary. It is simply an attempt by our intuition that this is how reality has generally behaved up to now (and will continue to behave tomorrow). But nothing in the cause really forces the result. Cause and effect are, in truth, two temporally linked phenomena. Even the physical component does not force the result because its very existence is not necessary. It is simply our observation that it is generally there. That is all. In this sense, "nature" It is all a matter of opinion that the laws of nature are not necessary but exist by the will of God, and whoever told oil to burn would tell vinegar to burn. In short, determinism itself is not part of the laws of nature. They say nothing about their applicability.
As a certified autist, I can tell you that I would rather be autistic than a fool. And the worst of both is a determined fool.
There is not a shred of an argument in your words here (as usual) that clarifies a response. I explained why all the prayers discussed here are not about the past but about the present. In the next column I will reiterate this more. The claims that it is emptied of any content are pure nonsense, of course. I assume that after you calm down you will easily understand this on your own.
And if we are talking about diagnostics, I assume that the term autistic is used by you here to express my unawareness of the conclusions of my words. It seems to me that the unawareness of the one who responds to my words to which he is responding is a more severe form of autism. So welcome to the club
Oh, and your ”enormous” difficulties with the prophets really took my breath away. A prophet also speaks with the Almighty and foresees the future. Does he pass without guessing? And when he temporarily uproots something from the Torah, does he pass without a trace?
I usually don't respond to the nonsense you spread here on the news very strongly, including the diagnoses you volunteer for me for free, there is no money in your kindness, but I thought it was still appropriate to put you in your place for once (although I suppose it won't help, because there are fools whose heads follow their gnawing, meaning that their emotions and anger determine their thoughts).
Meanwhile, the one who is losing his mind here is the rabbi, not me …
In my opinion, you usually don't respond to my words because you have nothing to say, either because you are blind and don't see what's wrong at all (“autistic”. Lacking self-awareness like your progressive brothers) or because you know I'm right.
Meanwhile, you haven't addressed the main point of my words (which is the ridiculousness that you inferred a prohibition on babbling from a play, without feeling that there's anything wrong with it). Except for shouting loudly like the progressives. Calling someone who calls you autistic an autistic is like calling someone who calls you “fat” (and he's really thin) because you're really fat. So I know how to shout loudly too. But as mentioned, my words are never directed at you (because you're autistic). Only the ’ One can pity someone who has no opinion. My words are addressed to the other readers. Including my diagnoses of you. They will decide for themselves whether I am right or not.
And more to the point, I did not come in my words to discuss the Mishnah but to offer a possible solution (which is true without any shofam, the Mishnah's interpretation). I did not at all address what comes later in the article about the interpretation of the Mishnah and what it talked about because it is a side issue and not important to what I claim is the ridiculousness of deducing a prohibition to pray from the Sages against the background of the prophets and their prayers and miracles. I do understand the Mishnah's interpretation that it is talking about a past event and not about the distinction between a visible and an invisible miracle, which is indeed the distinction accepted by the poskim (which seems to me to be an extension of the concept of "false prayer"). But as far as I am concerned, this is also an explanation that will be seen. There is also a difference between praying for a complete miracle and a hidden miracle (something whose chance of happening is small or zero but still exists. In fact, it is not two situations but a continuum in which there is a transition from complete concealment to complete revelation). But it still seems logical to me that a great person could pray for a great miracle and every person according to his rights. But there is a prohibition on praying for the past. In principle, as far as I am concerned, it is also possible to pray for a complete miracle, but there is a question here whether there is no false prayer here if the worshiper does not deserve a miracle according to his rights. Praying for the past is also a complete miracle (more than just a complete miracle as stated, and therefore I really do not think there is a prohibition on praying for a complete miracle from this mishna) and that is it.
Again, if the conclusion is ridiculous, then the assumptions or inference should be changed. I suggested one way. Then you decide what is wrong with the assumptions. The fact that you do not feel at all that your entire argument is ridiculous is precisely the autism that I am talking about and that anyone who has ever been exposed to Judaism can feel. So you explain (if you believe in the Torah and the Bible) why in the end there is a difference between a hidden miracle and a visible miracle (despite microscopic physics). This is how a person with common sense works. This is not the first time I have responded to you here on the site about this matter. There is another way to argue: that the claims of the sages about the facts here are correct and that this is not just physics of their time (after all, based on these facts, a law was also created related to the prohibition of abortion after 40 days (the entry of the soul)), in other words, these are metaphysical facts. But the conclusion that the sages today would prohibit praying is something that cannot occur to anyone with an understanding. The frivolity with which the things are declared here is unbelievable.
Whoever is talking about fools.
Copying your breath is not an answer to anything. Your attitude is completely ridiculous. The relationship between our prayers and the prayers of the prophets is the same relationship as between predicting the future without guessing? This was a classic practice of the ancient world of predicting the hidden. Prophecy is not guessing. It is. It is something else. Even a prophet of God is not guessing but a prophet of God. And if so, then we really need to explain why it is not guessing that is forbidden. The fact that you do not even understand how ridiculous your claim about the prohibition of praying is is beyond my comprehension. Do I really need to explain to you how a prophet does not transgress the law? Prayer is essential to the activity of a prophet (the other side of the rebuke and speech of God to the children of Israel. As we see several times in the Bible. “For he is a prophet and he will pray for you and live”, “And you shall not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor shall you hurt me, for I will not hear you… and you shall not pray for this people or for any other…” and many other places) Do you really think that every time a prophet prays, he uproots something from the Torah? Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? Is the role of a prophet to uproot things from the Torah? A prophet has great power to pray to God about great things, and therefore they turned to him. It is completely ridiculous to claim that he has removed anything from the Torah and the lack of distinction in this ridiculousness is again the autism I am talking about.
Besides, there is no need for explanations from you for putting me in my place because I am not impressed by your words. You are not in a position at all to put me in my place, because, as mentioned, I think you lack self-awareness and therefore I do not need any approval from you at all. Unlike the other people here on the site, I do not consider you that much today. More precisely, the new version of you, which is the demented version of who you were in your youth.
By the way, I already remember pointing out the strange contradiction that exists in the teachings of Rabbi Michi, which of course he did not pay attention to at all, in which there is a mitzvah (even today) to pray three times a day and a mitzvah to shout and shout for any trouble that may not come and at the same time and in the same season there is also a prohibition to pray at all.
How do you say: ” May the Lord have mercy” (and even a sword is placed on a person's neck)
I will finish my huge question from the prophets. I wonder what the Rabbi would say about the Rabbi who slaughtered Rabbi Zira on Purim and the next morning prayed over him and brought him back to life. If he were allowed to transgress the prohibition of prayer? If he were allowed to uproot something from the Torah? Good. It is a protection of life (for someone who is already dead. If he slaughtered in the evening and only prayed in the morning, I assume that by Raz he would have been completely dead.)
With us,
If you don't consider the rabbi who wrote the columns so much, why do you bother
to bang your head against the wall of his autism?
Lest you say – I'm not speaking to him, but to the other readers of the column –
They would prefer a more matter-of-fact style.
May Israel be blessed for the month of Adab, Pab
Yesher Hilya, the author of the website, who was not satisfied with one Purim Teira this year, but rather justified us with one Manah, began by canceling the sending of the Manahs to each other and ended by mobilizing the Sages to prohibit praying!
Although there was room to discuss the possibility of a Purim Teira after Purip because it will not pass, it must be said that the difficult situation is due to wars in Ukraine, attempted attacks, and economic and spiritual decrees in our country. Therefore, he asked for a The law should credit its readers with an idea that brings a smile to their lips, a joy that saves from despair.
After all, the sages did not invent prayer. The first to pray was Lamech, who asked his God when naming his son: ‘This one will comfort us from our deeds and from the toil of our hands’. Abraham prayed for Abimelech and was also absent; Abraham's servant prayed to his God for the success of his mission; Isaac prayed ‘in the presence of his wife Rebekah’ and was answered’; Leah and Rachel prayed for sons and were answered.
Our forefather Jacob does not only bless his sons and wish: In your salvation I have hoped, O Lord. He also teaches his sons to pray for their sons: ‘May God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh’, and when his sons suffer in slavery in Egypt – they cry out to God from their labor and are answered. And Moses, a hymn of praise, prays for his people and asks for forgiveness for them.
Samson calls on God when he is thirsty for water, and when the Philistines mistreat him – he asks ‘Strengthen me, O God, only this once’; Hannah prays for Laban, and Samuel prays several times and is answered, and about him it is said: ‘Moses, Aaron and his priests, and Samuel, when they call on his name, call on God; and he answers them’
King David teaches us that prayer is not only for prophets and high-ranking men, but that anyone can ask and be answered, because “the Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in truth.” In Psalm 17, David describes those in trouble “and cry out to the Lord; in their trouble He will save them from their distresses.” Even Solomon, in his building of the Temple, describes the individual and the many, and even the “foreigner.” That all pray to the Lord “through this house” and are answered. Isaiah also prophesies about the future: “For my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” It is clear from all the Scriptures that God hears and answers the prayers of His readers, and He will hear their cry and save them.
What the Sages restricted was that a person should not ask His Creator to completely reverse the order of Genesis, healing the sick, success in war, and finding a mate and livelihood - these are the customs of the world. Even if the chances are slim in nature, God will not refrain from helping and saving. On the other hand, reversing a fetus whose form has already been completed is a complete reversal of the order of Genesis, which God does not desire, and asking for it is an "impudence towards God". This is also the essence of Honi's prayer, "Not so I asked, but thus," which seems to be a dictate from a master who does not deserve a creature to do this to its Creator.
Taking the restrictions imposed by the sages on extreme demands that a slave should not dare to demand from his master, and deducing from them a "blanket prohibition" to pray, is a complete reversal of the will of God, who desires the prayers of the righteous.
With blessings, Hasdai Bezalel Duvdevani Kirshen-Kwas
Paragraph 7, line 4
… She is ‘rude towards Shmaya’. It is also…
And speaking of prayer, to be honest, we need to pray for Rabbi Michi that he may be healed of the ignorance into which he is slowly sinking.
Who's stopping you? Pray! Or are you trying to organize a mass prayer?
And yet, the author of the site has already taught us that even man's choice is an 'external intervention' in nature, since man's voluntary decision, which is not dictated by natural determinism, affects the electrochemical processes in the brain, which, following a change in man's will, transmits various currents to the nervous system that cause changes in the 'operation of the machine.'
According to this, the correlation between his good choice and the Creator's response to his prayer is understood, as it is written: 'He will do the will of those who fear Him, and He will hear their cry and save them,' where there is 'measure for measure': He who, in his choice, only slightly changed the 'space of his choice' – will simultaneously receive only limited intervention that will bring about a minor ’miracle’; and in contrast, he who changed his choice significantly and increased the ‘space of his choice’ upwards; – his Creator will also increase the ‘space of his intervention’ and his intervention in the order of nature will be greater. As it is written: ‘The Lord’ is your shadow at your right hand’.
With greetings, Hasdai Bezalel Duvdevani Kirshen-Kwas
The point is in the interpretation of an overt or covert miracle.
1. If God created a new mountain at night when everyone is sleeping, it is not a covert miracle but a covert one. A covert miracle is one that cannot be discerned by the ordinary eye, even if one could see from one end of the world to the other, because He intervenes in nature in a subtle way that only its effects will be felt. For example: A student prays that he will succeed in a test tomorrow. God causes the textbook to open exactly on the page that the lecturer will ask about. Interference in nature, yes. Noticeable, no.
A sex change that occurred during the time of the Sages, and even today, required gross interference with the laws of nature. The same goes for a former prayer (not in the sense of a causal chain, but rather that the prayer itself is about something that has already happened).
2. Interference in a person’s choice is not only direct. God can plant a particular thought, knowledge, or intuition. In a sense, all of our intuitions are “planted” this way. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is a higher level of such intuition, and it is possible that prayer can produce something like this at a lower level.
I didn't understand this message. Is there a question here? A comment? I didn't understand anything here (and what I did understand didn't seem right to me, and I've already explained it).
Who is Rabbi Emanuel? I am interested in knowing about the man in light of his above words.
“There is no apparent connection between prayers and rain, and between good or bad deeds and rain” (from the previous column).
In this column you only referred to prayer. Can you explain your claim regarding deeds? (How do you reconcile, in your opinion, “And it was so, and so on? After all, whether we interpret this as an exception to nature or not, it is still explicitly written that there is an effect on human actions.. or at least on the actions of Jewish people in the Land of Israel)
I have explained this more than once in the policy change (in the past, God was probably more involved). But even if I had no explanation, the tangible cannot be denied (as the Rabbi in the Sukkah said).
Trying to understand, what do you mean:
1. What is explicitly written in the Torah (not Chazal) is intended for a limited time and is no longer true?
2. Are the laws of physics today different from the laws of physics of earlier periods, namely the irrefutable proof from the sufficient condition only relevant after the ’validity’ of Parashat Vehe Im Shemoa has expired?
[
1. Obviously. After all, the events in the Torah are by definition temporary. The Exodus from Egypt was then, not today. Leah's or Moses' prayer was then, not today. The commandments are supposed to be eternal, and even for them there are commandments that are not eternal (such as placing manna in a jar or a serpent on a pillar) and they are not really listed (see Rambam, Third Root).
2. The laws of physics are not different, but the intervention policy of God is different. So He intervened more (i.e., temporarily froze them). When He parted the Red Sea, it means that the law of gravity was different, but God temporarily froze it.
When exactly do you think the turning point was? And do you think it could change again?
It is a continuous process of detachment from the world. There is no one specific point. Everyone agrees that there are no more visible miracles. Everyone agrees that there is no prophecy and no Urim and Toumim. Perhaps the Temple and sacrifices are also related to this. I argue that it is the same for hidden miracles. When you see it in context, it sounds quite natural and reasonable.
There is no prophecy, and yet God revealed through the archangel Michael that he had stopped interfering in his world 🙂
And according to you, he has stopped interfering, for that alone it is worthy of much prayer and supplication that he break the “iron barrier that stops” and return to intercede for the benefit of his people, as he did in the early generations.
With blessings, Yiftach Lahad Argamon-Bakshi
Your words indicate that for you, too, the laws of physics are not the end of the story. I failed to understand what difference it makes whether one assumes that the option for supervision/intervention is built into the sufficient condition, or that it exists alongside it.
The main thing is that it exists somewhere at some level. If it exists, then there is meaning to actions and perhaps there is also something to pray about.
I already answered that. The laws of physics alone are a sufficient condition. That's what physics says. You can disagree with the physicists, but if you accept the laws of physics then there is no room for involvement within the laws, only outside them.
“And he said unto me, Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark, a man in the chambers of his tent, saying, “The Lord sees us, the Lord has forsaken the land.” (Ezekiel 8:17).
This is one example of many that the same thought you present was also present during the time of the prophecy and probably since time immemorial. In the following chapters, massive intervention with individual supervision is described precisely as a result of that thought.
And perhaps the process is not necessarily continuous and unidirectional.
And in fact, why not assume that it was not God who changed policy, but man who changed behavior?
It was not God who stopped intervening, but man who stopped noticing the intervention and was less able to influence it?
I can accept the problematic nature of prayer that you point out. And yet it does not neutralize the meaning of the actions.
Anything is possible, but in practice I don't notice any interference and I need to be convinced that there is one.
Ramadaan – Shalom Rav,
If you manage to live a peaceful life on top of the ‘powder keg’ called ‘Lodo’, with twenty thousand ‘haters and terrorists’ and stockpiles of weapons and ammunition – it must be assumed that God is doing ‘overtime intervention…
Best regards, Y”l Arbak
Rabbi Mikhi – I also wondered whether it was “Purim -Torah”, but I realized that it wasn't:) In any case, it seems to me that the answer to the enormous puzzlement that the Rabbi raised is simple –
a) The author of the Ekirarim (4:18), of course in a non-scientific formulation:
“What led people to doubt prayer is close to what led them to reject the knowledge of God, and that is that they say that the matter will not escape division whether it is decreed from God that something good for someone is decreed or not:
And if it is decreed – there is no need for prayer,
And if it is not decreed – how will prayer be useful in changing God's will to decree for him something good that was not decreed?”
b) And his answer is this:
“When a person is decreed to do something good, it is decreed to him at a certain level of the merit of the deed, and this is the rule of the Torah's purposes.
And likewise, when a person is decreed to do something bad, it is decreed to him at a certain level of evil or in a certain preparation.
And when that level or that preparation changes, the decree will necessarily change to good or evil.
c) In my words, the decree is not for person X, but for an object in state X. As soon as the object is in state Y, the deterministic decree will not apply to it, of course. He gives a simple example for understanding:
“And it is like a king who decreed that all the circumcised in a certain country be killed or that each one be given a gold coin, and one of them stood up and was circumcised, that decree would undoubtedly change and be revoked for him for good or for bad”.
That is, when a person prays, he moves from state X to Y (in a deterministic way, if you will) – and in any case, prayer helps change the reality that was decreed for him – and everything is a matter of opinion.
___
N.B. – I will admit that I did not bother to read all the previous posts, because the respected rabbi who wrote it is “long in his generation”, and is very strict in the law “and the priest” And the earth will not be able to contain all his words - so I hope I didn't burst into an open door.
Therefore, he is called Abraham the Hebrew, because the texts he criticizes are from one era and he is from the other. I asked and requested Mr., for the benefit of the universe and all of humanity, to summarize your opinion on the issues of the criticism of pure reason. It is a heavy text that few manage to get through, while you can solve all the problems in one sentence without reading it (I am already attaching the form, and all you have to do is fill in the blank: everything appears in book X that Y already wrote). So please…
Okay, if this is the answer, I understand that it is really Purim-Torah 🙂 You should just add at the beginning/end of the post something like “…We laughed, we had fun – And now for our matter – All of the above was asked and answered in the Book of the Basics, slipped my memory, apparently I didn't pray enough on purpose”.
NB
Regarding the criticism of pure reason – It was already summed up by Sh”Y. Agnon, who according to tradition said to Rothenstreich (the translator): “Instead of reading your translation and not understanding anything, I can read the original and not understand anything!” And that's it.
A question I received from someone:
How does the rabbi deal with biblical prayers?
For example:
Moses' prayers for the healing of his sister, the blessing of the priests, Hezekiah's prayer during his illness, the prayer "Every wound, every disease" mentioned in Solomon's prayer.
https://mikyab.net/posts/75490#comment-60408
I didn't understand, the question is not how the prayer was beneficial, but how they were allowed to pray, after all, they prayed about a miracle. Is it just because they were mistaken and thought it wasn't a miracle? And what about the priests' blessing? Does God command the priests to bless that a miracle will happen? How does this fit in with what the sages said that it is forbidden to pray about a miracle?
The Gemara itself asked this question regarding Leah, and answered that we are not dealing with a miracle. I explained that the prophets (and perhaps also the men of the Rohk) are permitted what is forbidden to others. From their perspective, a miracle is part of the legitimate world.
And regarding the priestly blessing, that is a good question. Perhaps this should be likened to a request before measuring grain. I explained in the column that where the Torah itself renewed that it is permitted, then there is certainly no prohibition. The question of whether it helps is a different question. In our day and age, in my opinion, no.
Bottom line, sorry for the arrogance, but I need Torah and study. Did the rabbi stop praying due to the convincing argument in this post?
There is no arrogance here. A question that is begging, and I have addressed it here in the past and also in the second book in the trilogy.
Briefly: 1. There are parts of prayer that go beyond requests (including confession and praise, which I have no problem with). 2. Even with regard to the Holy One’s involvement, I cannot be sure that there is no involvement at all. It is always possible that there is sporadic involvement, and therefore I pray for the benefit of those who desperately need it and have no solution in a natural framework. And I do this only in the obligatory prayers. I do not participate in any prayers and psalms for the benefit of anything.
Although this is true only with regard to the hope of such prayer (does it help). But in light of what I have said here, there is also a question about the permissibility of doing so. Here I am acting according to the custom of the world, pok hezi may amma davar. It is difficult for me to cancel an obligatory prayer out of curiosity when the whole world acts differently. Even on a halakhic level, the custom of the whole world cancels a Talmudic view (and there are examples of this). Some have claimed that there is permission to pray for public needs, and the prohibition is only to ask for a miracle for an individual. I cannot rule that out either. Therefore, for the time being, I am not sure enough to cancel the requests in the obligatory prayer.
But if I truly come to a clear conclusion that there is no factual involvement, I will stop asking. The halachic conclusion that it is forbidden to ask is less solid in my opinion.
Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky, in fact, denies all of these conclusions.
In any case, this is not such a far-fetched conclusion if the rabbi is within the bounds of his Torah and his art. The only thing that needs to be stopped is the Kash, but not for prayer, not even for requests.
Hello,
Just a note regarding the determination of the sex of the fetus.
It is true that the determination is supposedly determined by the X and Y sex chromosomes, but that is not enough. On the Y chromosome there is a control gene called sry which controls the activity of other genes and thereby induces male development. The thing is that this gene is expressed between the 6th and 8th week of pregnancy and there are various cases in which this did not happen (there are a variety of reasons that are still unclear), and therefore a female developed even though the chromosomes were supposedly male. This means that up to these weeks there is a possibility of change, since the determination of the sex is not expressed. Similarly, the opposite is also known in animals (maybe in humans too, I don't remember).
According to your words, the sages believed that there was divine intervention, but that it only happened within the confines of nature, so why do you assume that if they had the knowledge of our day, they would have forbidden prayer? On the contrary, if they had the knowledge of our day, they would have come to the conclusion that everything written in the Bible about divine intervention, such as reward and punishment and the answering of prayers, is by miracle, and in any case, it is not a vain prayer, since this is what happens frequently, exactly as the Ramban says?
This pressing question has already been asked more than once, and here too (see the first talkback here).
Shmuel, I suggest you drink a glass of water and cool down a bit. I promise you that the ’ will not enlighten your eyes if you do not open them yourself. Out of sheer enthusiasm for holiness, you talk nonsense and make up claims and put them in your mouth.
The first talkback is somewhat related, but it is not the main argument here of the exile, and it is well-founded because this is where the whole building fell. In other words, it means that the Sages not only permitted but also required prayer even for things that, according to you (only), are defined as miracles, while according to them, only the former are defined as miracles that should not be prayed for.
The response “in the diaspora” is a crushing claim that collapses this entire strange building. Therefore, the builder who built it has two choices: either say I was wrong (and it is the same and even more embarrassing if he does not address his claim at all, for this is “silence as evasion”) or continue to drag the building blocks into the abyss and say that because of this, the possibility is being considered that everything we found in the Bible and in previous generations (including up until our own day, when Rabbi Chaim ztzu”l was still with us) did not exist and was not created.
And I do not know which of the two above is the more difficult to choose, and may God enlighten my eyes.
Hello, I would love to know how it is possible to adopt such a position when all day long we pray in a contradictory way,
The entire text of the prayers almost revolves around the issue of the request for change or salvation.
After all, we have been taught that living with a frontal logical contradiction is unacceptable and you, as a religious person, pray and still pray
Please explain to me in your opinion how you live with such a conflict
Thank you.
They asked me and I explained. It is explained both in the trilogy and here.
https://mikyab.net/posts/75490#comment-60426
Can the words of the rabbi be used to prove, according to the Ramban's method, that the commandment to pray is from the rabbis, because it does not appear, according to the Rambam's method, that the Torah commanded to pray for a miracle (we see in the Rambam that part of the commandment to pray is also a request and not just praise)?
In fact, the Ramban's method also has a commandment to pray in times of need, and according to the rabbi, how is it possible to say yes unless it is a special innovation of the Torah to permit prayer?
Even the Ramban has no evidence that requests are from the Torah. Standing before the Lord is from the Torah. Indeed, it is the Ramban who has a commandment to pray in times of trouble. I do not agree with this, at least today. In any case, most of the commandments from the Torah are the product of the interpretation of the sages (like the Ramban here), and not something written in the Torah. Therefore, there is no reason why there will be mistakes there.
I fail to understand, after all, almost every statement of Chazal is based on the assumption of some fact. A pit only kills at a height of ten tefahim, a normal house only houses ten tefahim, a person may blow a shofar in a house, etc., etc. A person will come and say, "I don't think that's the case from a factual point of view, a house today must contain at least ten tefahim." Will that exempt him from the obligation to have a mezuzah in the house? After all, we haven't really proven the issue of space in physics in a way either. There are zillions of natural laws that operate at any given moment and we don't really have the ability to examine whether they all constitute necessary and sufficient conditions for what is happening around us. This is at most a widespread scientific perception that can be challenged. There is room for the opinion that God intervenes only in places that are not visible to us, even if it sounds like an evasive argument. This is not a black and white fact. Will laws be allowed or prohibited for me wherever my opinion disagrees with the facts that the Sages have established?
I don't see what's hard to understand. If you've come to a different factual conclusion, then the sage's words don't bind you. That's assuming they are indeed based on the factual assumption that you don't accept.
By the way, like you, there's no way to know what's happening at any given moment, and the sage didn't either.
I feel like you, on the Winnet website and in the book God Plays Dice, explain with good taste and knowledge that the world could not have been created by chance without a guiding hand, and atheists insist in an incomprehensible way and with repeated and stubborn insistence, nevertheless, to go against logic and adhere to their position of distorting the proposals that appear to them to be true (not just to the mind), not to admit that there is a guiding hand of God in creation, despite all your logical explanations, you idiots. Here, in the matter of providence, in our days, creation has turned upside down. We see God practically intervening and guiding at almost every step, and you don't see it. Take, for example, an example from Duma. For 70 years, Minister Chaim was the municipal reassurance that Bnei Brak would not be harmed by terrorism. And I hear during the shiva the eulogy of Rabbi Berl Povarsky and the Hermit Bergman saying in a tearful voice, "Who will protect Bnei Brak now?" (The son already hinted at this in his eulogy for his father at the funeral itself) Go to the Kol HaLashon website and see for yourself
The ink has not yet dried on this response of mine, Ilyich, and while I am talking, I hear that there was indeed a murderous attack in Bnei Brak by an Arab terrorist from the West Bank who shot and killed five people there not far from the street where I used to live two years ago. In short, maybe this is where I need to be enlightened. But don't worry, if you want to do something like that, you still have a long way to go. I always admire the greatest stubborn person in history who built the city of Jericho when Joshua cursed anyone who would return to build it that he would weigh all his sons when the first one died laying the cornerstone and the last one would die when the construction was completed. What did this stubborn person tell himself after weighing his six sons and was about to lose his last son in the continuation of his construction? His stubbornness cannot be dismissed simply as "cold Lithuanianness" but rather as something else for which I have no explanation (not even "pride, pride" of Rabbi Shteiman) This is something that cannot be explained and when it comes to understanding, perhaps the Rabbi will be able to give some explanation for this phenomenon? In wonder
I'm having a hard time understanding when they do require it, if so? There's an opening here to a huge, endless loophole (in the law of money, we're in a problem, anyone can get away with paying on the grounds that they don't agree with the fact that the sages assumed that an ox had a way of causing harm through its gait, and so on and so forth).
Mikhi,
I'm risking a question that you've probably already addressed here, but Jewish-religious language is a bit foreign to me and I haven't yet fully understood your position in this column.
Are you saying that:
1. According to “authentic” Judaism (which is faithful to the Torah, or at least to its spirit) it is forbidden to pray for a miracle or is it just that it is an irrational act?
2. If this is your claim, do you think it has “halakhic” status? That is, is this a claim that can serve as a halakhic ruling?
3. Do you think that the sages themselves should, if they understood reality and nature as we understand it today, have established a halakhic law in this spirit?
Or the same question in a broader context: Do you learn from the Torah itself that there is no “logical” Should she pray for a miracle or is it forbidden in principle (even if she thinks it makes sense)?
??
I answered and for some reason it doesn't appear here. I'll write again.
1. It is accepted in halacha that it is forbidden. But if it is just pointless, it means that God is not involved in the world. Reinforcement of my long-standing claim
I wrote in a column that, simply put, both interpretations are correct: He is not involved and therefore forbidden.
2. Yes. This is halacha.
3. I already wrote above that I don't know and it is irrelevant. What is obligatory is what they determined (that one should not pray for a miracle) and not what they were supposed to determine.
Can we expect that there are no gaps in nature, or is this just an assumption until proven otherwise?
This is the conclusion of scientific research in physics.
Conclusion, don't pray. There is no point in a purely halakhic prayer because it is a delusional idea of Leibowitz, not of the halakhic scholars.
So next time don't complain about the long and boring prayer, just don't come.
Hello dear. It is possible to argue about my positions (and be wrong of course). But to have an argument requires basic logic and reading comprehension, two things that your message does not really reflect. Maybe nervousness bothered you, so drink a glass of cold water for your tired soul. Much peace and joy.
Hayutha's response (I moved it here from the next column):
I just came across a passage in my book ‘Nechama’ (which I am working on into a children's book) that relates to your recent posts about prayers for the future and the past: “On Kislev 3, 1972, Uri, Elhanan's brother and Yeshayahu's eldest son, died of a serious illness. “Don't come,” Yeshayahu sent to Elhanan his son and daughter-in-law. … During the shiva, many people came to comfort him, including Rabbi Moshe Zvi Neriah, Rosh Yeshivot Bnei Akiva. “It is difficult to understand the account of a place,” said Rabbi Neriah, and Yeshayahu replied: “The Lord does not owe me an account.” He mentioned the words of the Maimonides at the end of a lesson for those who are confused about the verse, "I am the one who does righteousness and justice." Righteousness, says the Maimonides, is the very essence of existence. Justice is the law of nature. The moment cancer cells were discovered in my son's body, it was a law of nature, one of those that God decreed in His law that he should die. Every year, when they sang around the Seder table the piyyut, "And she who stood for our fathers and for us, that not one alone stood against us to destroy us, and God saves us from their hand," Isaiah would add and say: "Not always." That's the quote from the book.
In a footnote there I added something I heard from Rabbi Amital, the late, after my book was published: “If I had known he had cancer, I would not have prayed for him,” Yeshayahu Leibowitz told his sister Nechama upon his return from praying at the Western Wall for the rabbi’s recovery. In those days, cancer was considered completely incurable and healing from it was against the law of nature.
I marvel at him. Any prayer for healing is against nature. He should surely understand that.
A request for healing means that without divine intervention the patient will die. I ask God to heal him, that is, to act against the outcome that nature dictates.
Now I thought that he probably thought that one should not pray for an overt miracle, but only for an undertow. But this is ruled out from the issue itself, as I proved by asking about a fetus.
Beyond that, Leibowitz reasons that there is nothing to pray against nature, regardless of whether it is overt or undertow. In this he is simply scientifically mistaken. Incidentally, this is a common mistake among biologists and life scientists, who mistakenly think that there is real statistics in nature and do not understand that this is just an effective methodology and not an assertion about reality. They probably talk too little to physicists.
In the understanding of a simple person like me, statistics are a collection of data that is retrospective. There is no apparent reason why so-and-so recovered and so-and-so did not. There is a strong element of chance in this. Prayer means asking for the statistics to be biased. Most of the religious world does not treat statistics as a hard scientific fact but as something that is subject to flexibility.
People think that prayer is intended to bias statistics. But in column 326 I explained that statistics is a methodology designed to deal with a situation of missing information. Its assumption is that information does not exist, but this is only a methodological assumption. In reality, information is always complete (except for quantum theory according to common interpretations, and there it is only on very small scales, and in any case divine intervention would be an exception to the distribution dictated by quantum theory, i.e. still an exception to nature).
It is very strange and even amusing to me that a simple fact that every child who has started studying physics knows is ignored by great thinkers, philosophers and even many scientists. All of them continue to discuss prayer and miracles within the framework of nature, and it is no wonder that because of this many do not feel the difficulty in the issue of the above blessings.
Now I thought of an interesting case study: A bus attack occurred at the Neve Daniel intersection a little while ago. In a local WhatsApp group, a woman from the village, a convert, wrote that she would probably have to recite the blessing of the revenant, because she usually rides this bus. My neighbor replied that the blessing of the revenant is only said about an incident that you were in and survived, not about an incident that you were not in at all.
Sorry, I ran away in the middle, the question is what is the place of the reciprocating blessing in your perception.
Although this is indeed commonly said, the respondent was of course wrong. The blessing of the redeemer is always said about something that did not happen. A sailor who did not drown or was not murdered, a patient who did not die, etc. Her intention is probably to say that the danger must be tangible in order for salvation from it to justify the blessing of the redeemer. But there is room for discussion about this: is expecting the same bus in a different place tangible enough? Maybe.
In general, the redeemer is an acknowledgment to God for a dangerous rescue (my friend Rabbi Nir Weinberg once wrote in an article that it is an acknowledgment of returning from an isolated place to normal human society: https://asif.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/11.pdf), and there is apparently an assumption here that it was God who saved us. This always seems amusing to me, even beyond my perceptions that God is not involved. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that he is involved and that he is causing everything that is happening. After all, according to this, he is also the one who caused the danger and he is also the one who saved me. So why should I thank him? It reminds me of the Hollywood legends about a guy who is in love with a girl and hires thugs to harass her so that he will come and save her. If I poison you and then give you a cure, would you thank me? Or is the poisoning not his fault and the rescue is? Why? How is that so?
Beyond that, in my opinion, the causal chain that leads to the event is deterministic + human decisions. Nowhere here is God involved. Neither in the danger nor in the rescue. This of course raises the question even more strongly where along the chain I am supposed to be in order to justify the "revenge"? Waiting for the bus at a previous stop is too early? And what about being on the bus but not in the firing line? And what about being in the firing line but a detainee with a weapon appears? These are all different stations on the deterministic chain that leads to murder, and wherever it is interrupted, I am saved. In principle, I could have blessed the redeemer for being born in Haifa or for attending the Carmel School. All of these were stations on the way to the attack.
So why even bless the redeemer? If God is not the one who saved us (or alternatively, He is the one who also got us into this trouble), then seemingly there is no point in it. In my view, it is no different from all the other confessions we make to God. Contrary to the requests about which I have written more than once that I am in dissonance, confessions are easier for me. I am actually supposed to thank Him for everything He created in the world that serves me in my life and allows me to function. The confession is about the world, the laws of nature He created in it, and the skills that were given to me. The psychological opportunity to give thanks for all of this is when something happens. The feeling that God is involved expresses an illusion that helps us remember that the entire world is the work of God and that we should thank Him for it. Therefore, we should take advantage of this state of mind to thank Him for the very creation, the world, and its laws. Not for the rescue in this case, which was probably not His work.
A little humor these days regarding Hayutha's question regarding the exemption from the Gomel blessing of the one who was the one who answered the question who was not actually present at the time of danger. I heard a story from the person who did the deed himself in the synagogue who used to be her rabbi, namely our rabbi, the Gaon Rabbi Bonim Schreiber, may God have mercy on him. He told us that once he was walking, as I think, in the northern region (and was probably immersed in study, according to the best of our knowledge of him) and did not notice that he was approaching the railroad tracks and the locomotive or someone there shouted a juicy insult at him (and our rabbi added that he was indeed right in this nickname he gave him) and stopped him, apparently seconds from a disaster, an accident that could have happened if he had not shouted at him. Then he went to ask his father, the great Gaon Gabd of Ashdod, Rabbi Pinchas Schreiber, zt”l, whether he should recite the Gomel blessing? His father answered him that it was almost an accident – almost a blessing
Is the justification for Chazal's erroneous position that there are gaps in nature based on facts? On the contrary, it is a fundamental normative argument about the way the world works, and empirical observation probably cannot prove or disprove its correctness; this is what part of the current list is actually about.
The currently prevalent position of natural determinism stems, to the best of my understanding, from theoretical causal arguments, and in the modern way of thinking, if it had developed earlier, Chazal would have concluded the same.
Indeed, in order to master this concept, the course of all generations and the development of their knowledge is required, but Chazal's error is not in understanding the facts, but rather in an incorrect philosophical perception, and your assumption is that Chazal has authority over normative determinations.
It seems to me that you are mixing up concepts. You are right that this is an assumption and not a direct result of observation (all science is like this), but it is a factual assumption and not a normative claim. Not everything that is not observational is normative. The claim that the number of ants in the world is one hundred billion cannot be examined observationally, but it is not a norm but a claim of fact (true or false). The same applies to the claim that there is a God (or there is not).
The Ramban (Dereshat Torat HaTemimah, around the Kamo pillar in the common edition of the Ramban's writings) raises the following series of arguments (the arguments also appear in a less organized form in his commentary on the Torah):
According to the Ramban, nature is absolute and Aristotle's concept dominates nature
According to Aristotle, there are no gaps in nature (“not even the wing of a fly or the leg of an ant”)
Therefore
1 Every prayer for rain is a prayer for God's involvement in nature
2 The Torah's promise of “I will give you your rains in their season” It is a mixture in nature
In any case, Maimonides must admit that man has no part in the Torah of Moses until he agrees that all our words and events are hidden miracles
Does every rabbi necessarily have to assume one of the three – 1 There are gaps in nature 2 There is a mixture that is not a miracle 3 It is forbidden to pray at all?
What did the Ramban add here? I wrote what I had to write in the Torim themselves. Whoever allows asking in prayer (we are only talking about requests, not prayer in general), must assume that there are gaps in nature or that it is permissible to pray for a miracle.
The Ramban is aware of the possibility that there are no intervals in nature (unlike the Chazal, who may not have thought of such a nature) and yet it is clear to him that prayer is a right thing.
The meaning is that the Ramban, as a posak, determines that it is simpler to permit and even require prayer, than to prohibit prayer for a change in nature. In any case, when it has been proven that there are no intervals in nature, we are permitted to pray for a miracle (and at most one should distinguish between an overt miracle and a hidden miracle, as the Ramban distinguishes). From the moment the Ramban is aware of the same philosophical data that the Ramban is aware of, there is no reason to rule as the Ramban versus the Ramban
One should not rule like me and not like him, but as one who is right. This is not about considerations of authority. I explained that the Gemara has a halakhic claim (one should not pray for a miracle, hidden or obvious) and a factual claim (there are gaps in nature). I argued that the Gemara has authority in the halakhic and not factual realm. It is agreed in the discussion here that factual is not right. Hence the conclusion. Now examine who is right.
Thanks for the clarification. So basically there are rules of jurisprudence here that force us to rule, ostensibly against 1 authority (of the Ramban who is aware of the issues) 2 tradition 3 intuition. A nice move but feels like defiling a creeper in the Book of Tastes (“How can we so vehemently purify the creeper that the Torah has defiled”)
I have nothing to do with statements. I made an argument. If there is something wrong with it, be respectful and point it out. If you can't point out a flaw in the argument, I don't see what we have to discuss.
Agree, the argument is valid.
They put my cat in a radioactive box. The chance that he will be alive after an hour is fifty percent.
Now they are going to open it.
Am I allowed to pray that the cat will be alive when the box is opened?
Apparently, we (and our quantum masters) have urged us – there is no contradiction here of the laws of nature (and the box).
(The idea is not mine, I read it in the book “Law and Providence” by Benjamin Paine, a physicist)
As I think I answered that in the column. Read carefully.
Now I saw that it wasn't. I addressed it in the sciences of freedom. Intervention where the laws of nature determine the distribution is a miracle in every sense of the word. Only a hidden, not an overt, miracle.
In my humble opinion, (not a recommendation, to be honest. My knowledge of quantum theory is from popular sources) – Well –
There are no “natural laws” that determine the distribution – as the saying goes, there is no mechanism whose results appear
as random in the distribution – if (a big if) I am not mistaken – things are created “there” out of nothing – without any
causal mechanism – and the creation of something out of nothing is itself a miracle – an act of creation.
And if I were allowed to speak – an act in one …. And a miracle was done for him and his breasts were opened like the breasts of a woman and he nursed her son.
Rav Yosef said: Come and see how great this man is that such a miracle was performed for him.
Abaye said to him: On the contrary, how bad this man is that the orders of Genesis have been changed for him.
And so we find in Rabbi Elazar ben Pedat –
He said to me: Elazar my son, it is convenient for you that I will turn the world back to its beginning – perhaps he will be born in the hour of fornication.
As the saying goes, – Every miracle is associated with a new order of the entire universe.
And apparently Dedekert – not a question. According to his method, the Blessed One creates the world anew every moment.
To Schrödinger – Peace and blessings,
I fear that after the cat spent an hour in a radioactive box – it is better for him to rest in peace and not suffer any longer 🙂
With best wishes, Shonra Katzinger
I saw someone write an entire book to show that God can intervene in the world without violating the laws of nature. You can download it for free on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Action-Determinism-Laws-Nature-ebook/dp/B08247WKVG/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9781032083117&linkCode=qs&qid=1658953812&s=books&sr=1-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.d977788f-1483-4f76-90a3-786e4cdc8f10
What's the idea?
He claims that God does not need to "break" anything in order to intervene in the world. After reading a bit, I saw that this is not so relevant to what Rabbi Michi claims. He also has no philosophical problem with divine intervention.
Could you perhaps elaborate a little more on your explanation?
It's very complicated. And I'm not sure I understand everything he writes. He deals with all sorts of definitions of the "laws of nature" and why some people are reluctant to believe that God sometimes violates them. And his conclusion is that one can be an interventionist, meaning to believe that God sometimes intervenes in nature, such as through miracles and the like, without being a violationist, which means that one doesn't have to believe that God violates anything. Just as a human being acts in the world without violating the laws of nature. And yet, it's a complete waste.
We would be happy to attach a file if it is written in Hebrew. I did not see a download and viewing option.
It's written in English. You can download it with Kindle.