The Logic Behind the Majority Criterion (Column 422)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In the previous column I discussed a comparison between two value-laden options. I noted there that people get entangled in problems and contradictions because they fail to notice that one must weigh the benefit and the harm (the “costs”) of the two options before them. I analyzed in that way the conflict between saving life and Shabbat. That reminded me of a discussion with Tirgitz following Column 420, where the same point arose. In this column I will try to spell out what I answered him there.
Tirgitz’s Question
Tirgitz shlit”a raised there the following question:
What, in your reasoned view, do you make of the proposal that only in a public matter (such as raising large livestock, or fostering an atmosphere of mourning over the Temple) does the decision whether to enact a decree depend on the majority of the public? For without a majority, the minority has no practical standing. But when making a fence around the Torah, it is certainly worthwhile to decree in order to save the minority. And this resembles the Rambam’s remark that if the truth benefits one excellent person but harms a thousand simpletons, one should still state the truth for the sake of the excellent person.
What is the logic in thinking that if the Sages assessed that the majority of the public would read by lamplight and tilt the lamp, they would therefore not enact a decree, thus letting the minority stumble? Elsewhere you wrote that “the majority of the public” is feedback from laypeople indicating the decree is mistaken—but that feedback is only one factor and not always correct. Sometimes the laypeople are simply lazy.
And he writes similarly in his continued comment there:
An elegant sevara, Rabbi Yifaor. It is indeed plausible that “better they remain inadvertent sinners” is relevant even if a majority of the public will comply with the decree and only a minority will act deliberately—if the breach of the fence by the minority is particularly severe. Yasher koach.
[I’ll add a little, though you probably won’t agree with this part. The Torah’s rule to follow the majority is very surprising. In a court you must follow the majority, for otherwise you would follow the minority, which is less reasonable. But in prohibitions—say, a piece separated from several pieces—what is so special about the arbitrary 50–50 line, such that the Torah said that if there is more than 50 percent permitted it is allowed, and otherwise not? To the same degree one could have chosen any arbitrary line, say 34.998%. Explanations like those attributed to R. Gedaliah Nadel—that such is the human way to evaluate an aggregate—obviously lack substance. Therefore, here, where there is a difference between the benefit the majority will receive and the harm created for the minority, and it’s not exactly a zero-sum, we revert to the original point that the arbitrary 50–50 line has no intrinsic meaning.]
He returned to this in the Q&A here, and this column is my response.
Initial (Linguistic) Remarks
As you will see there, at first glance his proposal sounded reasonable and logical to me. Moreover, the expression “rov” (majority) can indeed be understood as “many people,” and not necessarily as 51% and up. Thus, for example, at the end of the Book of Esther it says about Mordechai the Jew that he was “pleasing to the rov of his brethren,” and despite all the jokes, the plain meaning is not that he was pleasing to a numerical majority of his brethren, but that he was pleasing to many of his brethren (and perhaps to all of them), or to a substantial number of them—though not necessarily 51%. Likewise, when one speaks of someone who receives “compliments larov,” the intention is not that most people compliment him, but that he receives many compliments (perhaps from all present). And so too “in a multitude of people is the King’s glory,” where the phrase does not necessarily mean a numerical majority of the people, but a large public (see also I Chronicles 4:38; II Chronicles 31:10). This linguistic consideration allows for Tirgitz’s proposal on the interpretive level.
The Source: The Avodah Zarah Sugya
The source of the law is in Avodah Zarah 36a:
“And our Rabbis relied on the words of Rashbag and on the words of Rabbi Elazar ben Tzadok, who would say: One does not enact a decree upon the public unless the majority of the public can abide by it. For Rav Adda bar Ahava said: What is the verse? ‘You are cursed with a curse, yet you rob Me—the whole nation’ (Malachi 3:9). If there is ‘the whole nation’—yes; if not—no.”
Throughout the sugya two assumptions are taken for granted (for some reason the Gemara does not distinguish between them—see the Ritva below): 1) A decree must spread through the public in order to take effect; if it does not spread, it is annulled. 2) One does not enact a decree upon the public if the majority of the public cannot abide by it. The second principle addresses the criteria a court should consider before enacting the decree; the first addresses the need to revoke a decree after the fact if it did not take hold. In both principles the term “majority” appears (“spread among most of Israel,” “most of the public can abide by it”). According to our approach, however, one could explain this as speaking of a substantial segment and not necessarily a numerical majority, as per Tirgitz’s proposal.
Seemingly, from the verse in Malachi cited as the source one sees that “the entire nation” is required, which would apparently demand a majority, for “a majority is like the whole.” But the Malbim there explains: “Do this—the whole nation; not individuals alone,” which can certainly be understood as a substantial segment, not specifically a numerical majority.
The early authorities on that sugya cite Rabbeinu Yonah that when excommunication is declared in a synagogue it is valid only if most of the public is present. The simple reading is indeed “most,” but again one could interpret it as meaning a substantial segment, i.e., that it not be a mere handful.
The Ritva there notes the connection between these two principles (which the Gemara does not differentiate):
“And our Rabbis relied on Rashbag… For if the only reason were that the prohibition did not spread throughout Israel, a court greater than the first would still be required to annul it, as with other decrees that are not among the eighteen [enactments]. But now that most of the public cannot abide by it, even a lesser court can annul it. And if you will say: Since there is this reason—that most of the public cannot abide by it—behold, it is not a decree at all, as we learn from the verse ‘You are cursed with a curse,’ I would answer: That verse teaches both—that they cannot abide by it and that it did not spread; and whenever one of these is present, ‘the whole nation’ is present. Moreover, when it did spread it is more severe, such that even Elijah cannot annul it. And in Horayot 3b we cite that verse regarding the matter of spread and Israel’s acceptance of it. Therefore they needed to say that both were present there—that it did not spread and that they could not abide by it. But whenever it did spread and they accepted it, an important court is required to annul it at the very least. And in our entire sugya there is no distinction between ‘all Israel’ and ‘most of Israel,’ for a majority is as the whole.”
In any case, from the end of his words it seems he understood this as a literal majority, since he invokes the rule that “a majority is as the whole.” With some effort one could still say the phrase is used metaphorically and he too means a substantial segment.
My Reservation: A First Look
In my response there I qualified my initial agreement with his sevarot, and to that end I also invoked the rule of nullification by majority. Let me preface by noting that proposals of this kind typically proceed while ignoring one side of the problem. Life’s equations have two sides, and therefore the natural balance between them is 50%. If you ignore one side, the question indeed arises why not shift the line wherever you wish.
For example, in a democracy we follow the majority (51%). Why precisely a majority—why not 40% or 70%? Everyone understands that choosing some other figure would produce injustice. If we set the threshold at 70%, then if there were a 60% majority we would in effect follow the minority. Why prefer the minority over the majority? And similarly if we set from the outset that “majority” means 40%, the injustice would arise in every scenario. There is always a cost associated with where you place the threshold for following the majority (a cost borne by the minority whose view loses—the sitra achra). Balancing the costs leads us to the natural 50% line.
One may indeed object: there are issues where it matters far more to the minority to have the decision go their way than it matters to the majority. For example, with drafting Haredim to the army one might argue that while equality of burden is important to the majority, for the Haredim their entire world hinges on this decision (let us assume this here, at least for the sake of discussion). In such a case it makes sense to weight the Haredi view differently despite their being a minority. According to this proposal one should decide by a weighted majority—not headcount, but headcount multiplied by the weight (importance) each side assigns to having its position prevail.
But such a criterion is a recipe for trouble. First, it is very hard to measure such importances. Second, people can misrepresent and inflate how much they “care” in order to win. These two difficulties create two practical, societal problems: every decision would force us into deep polling and studies, and you cannot run a society like that (even referendums for every decision are impractical—so studies of this sort are all the more so). Beyond that, endless suspicion would arise between sides about manipulative self-reporting. It is therefore sensible to set a simple criterion—even if less fair—of following a headcount majority. If the majority voluntarily chooses to consider the minority because it recognizes how important the issue is to them, all the better—but it is not reasonable or practical to fix that as a hard rule.
I now contend that this is also the situation in the other contexts about which Tirgitz raised his questions.
Following the Majority
Tirgitz discussed there the rule of “better that they remain inadvertent sinners,” and at the end he also alluded to the laws of nullification and following a majority that I had mentioned:
Regarding the mysterious matter of nullification and following a majority (and not any other line) in prohibitions—as opposed to court decisions—I think I shall wait until the topic returns to center stage.
Well, here it is.
I argued there that his mathematical calculation is flawed because it ignores the cost. He claims regarding the rule “better that they remain inadvertent sinners” that even if harm will occur to a substantial segment of the public (who will violate the decree deliberately), that suffices to refrain from rebuke and leave them inadvertent. That is not correct only in a case where a majority would act deliberately. By the same token, one could argue concerning the principle in Avodah Zarah—not to enact a decree that most of the public cannot observe—that if a decree will not spread in a substantial segment of the public, i.e., they cannot abide by it, then one should not enact it even if it is not a literal majority.
But both claims ignore the other side of the equation. When weighing whether to enact—or whether to rebuke—there is a problem on both sides of these decisions. On the one hand, the starting point is that there is a need for the decree; therefore, if you do not enact it, you harm that need. Likewise with rebuke: there is a need to rebuke so that the public will fulfill its duty. When we decide not to rebuke, that harms those who would have complied. On the other hand, there is reason not to enact—to avoid burdening and causing people to stumble; and not to rebuke—to avoid turning people into deliberate sinners. The natural balance between these two sides is to follow an actual majority, not merely a substantial segment. In both cases we weigh the costs and benefits of the two alternatives against one another, as I will now detail.
Regarding rebuke (“better that they remain inadvertent sinners”), the two alternatives are: A) Rebuke, in which case part of the public will comply and gain proper behavior, while another part will not comply and will act more harmfully (deliberately rather than inadvertently). Because there are costs on both sides, we must set a criterion for deciding between the two options. It is sensible and logical to set the line at the majority, for the good of the majority overrides that of the minority. True, there can be cases where the harm from not rebuking is enormous, or the harm from rebuking is enormous, which can neutralize the numerical advantage—just as we saw in the democracy example above. But if we need a general, simple rule, it is very reasonable to set the line at the majority.
So too regarding whether to enact the decree in the first place. Again, the two alternatives are: A) Enact it, and then part of the public will not comply and we will have created transgressive behavior; whereas the other part will comply and gain proper behavior. B) Do not enact it, in which case the expected benefit from the decree (avoiding prohibition) will not be realized for that part of the public that would have observed it—but others will at least not be halachic offenders (though with respect to the underlying reason for the decree they will indeed be acting improperly). And again, if one must draw a general line, it is reasonable to set it at 51%. The good of the majority overrides the good of the minority.
Therefore, in the end I argued that it is logical to set a criterion of a majority rather than suffice with a substantial segment of the public. Because the other side also bears costs, we must weigh the costs of both paths before deciding between them. When an equation has two sides, the natural balance point is the midpoint—50%.
A Note: Is the Very Restriction Itself Also a Cost?
In my remarks there I also raised the sevara that the very enactment of a decree bears a cost, because I am imposing a restriction on the majority who will observe the decree—a restriction not required by strict law. Tirgitz argued that this is not a cost, for the halachic logic says there is a need to enact in such a case (the decree benefits that same majority who will observe it). Therefore, the restriction imposed upon the majority is not a “cost.”
I agree—but only partially—because that restriction is also a cost. After all, we oblige people to act in ways they are not obligated by the letter of the law to act. True, this is justified; still, one cannot say there is no cost. Therefore it makes sense to factor this cost into the overall assessment comparing the two alternatives.
An analogy can be found in R. Akiva Eiger’s sevara regarding a biblical doubt (discussed at length in the Radzin Rebbe’s book Shifuni Temunei Chol about tekhelet). As is known, the general rule is that in a biblical doubt one must be stringent. But R. Akiva Eiger argues that this applies only where, if we are stringent, we certainly avoid transgression. Where even by being stringent one may still transgress, there is no obligation to be stringent. For example, if before us is a doubt whether a piece is forbidden fat (chelev) or permitted fat (shuman): if we are stringent and do not eat, we certainly avoid prohibition—hence the duty to be stringent. By contrast, if we have tzitzit dyed with tekhelet and we are unsure whether this is the correct tekhelet, there is no duty to be stringent and attach it to the garment. One might say there is logic to be stringent—improving our odds of keeping the law—but, argues R. Akiva Eiger, in such a case even if we are stringent and attach it, if this is not the correct tekhelet, we still walked without a tekhelet thread and nullified a positive commandment. The stringency does not ensure we have avoided an offense. In such a case there is no obligation to be stringent.
Similarly here: there are certainly cases where it is justified to impose a restrictive decree. But if even imposing the decree will not necessarily yield the hoped-for benefit—or at least not its full benefit—perhaps there is no justification to restrict the entire public.[1]
Example: “One may not read by the light of a lamp lest he tilt it”
The Talmud in Shabbat rules that it is forbidden on Shabbat to read by lamplight, lest the flame dim and one tilt the lamp so that the oil reaches the wick—thus transgressing kindling or extinguishing. Consider the Sages as they debated whether to enact this decree. There is certainly a need for it, because people might come to tilt the lamp. On the other hand, this is a restriction not required by law, and more: it prevents people from reading and learning on Friday nights—i.e., it also has a spiritual cost. Furthermore, even if enacted there will be those who will not comply, and then we cause them to transgress a rabbinic prohibition.
The basic assumption is that if the entire public complied, the benefit would be worth the cost. It is worth preventing possible Shabbat desecration at the price of restricting reading. But it is clear that some segment will not comply. Let us denote that fraction by P (a number between 0 and 1 of the whole public). We must now compare the alternatives:
- Enact the decree. The gain is that (1–P) of the public will certainly not stumble into Shabbat desecration (of course, not all of them would have stumbled even otherwise). The harm is that those who do stumble (P) will transgress a rabbinic prohibition of reading and may also stumble into tilting (which is not deliberate but also not coerced or inadvertent action—rather, inadvertent—because there was a rabbinic decree).[2] In addition, the other part (1–P) suffers a restriction on their Shabbat reading and learning, even though this restriction does not yield the full benefit it is supposed to bring (since a segment does not comply).
- Do not enact the decree. The gain is that we impose no restriction on anyone, and no one transgresses the rabbinic prohibition of reading by lamplight. The loss is that some of the (1–P) who would have obeyed the decree may now stumble into a biblical Shabbat labor (tilting), which is a stoning-level offense.
Without doing the math with formulas—since it is hard to quantify the harms themselves—it is quite clear there are two sides here and the decision between them is neither simple nor self-evident. Therefore, as we saw above, if we seek a general, across-the-board criterion, it is very reasonable to set the line where P = 1/2.
This is the discussion regarding the rule “a decree that the public can abide by.” The same calculation can be made regarding whether to rebuke those who do not observe this decree and read by the lamplight (the “better they remain inadvertent sinners” sugya).
The Rule of Majority
I mentioned above that in my remarks I also invoked the rule of following the majority or nullification by majority. Tirgitz regarded this as an arbitrary, unjustified determination. In my view its logic is quite similar to what I have explained so far.
My starting point is the rule of a “thing that has permissible times” (davar sheyesh lo matirin). The Talmud in several places (see Beitzah 3b–4a and elsewhere) says that if there is a prohibition for a limited period—meaning a time arrives when the prohibition lapses—then it is called “a thing that has permissible times,” and various stringencies apply to it. For example, if it is a rabbinic prohibition then its doubt is treated stringently, unlike other rabbinic doubts; and if a biblical prohibition has been mixed into a majority of permitted matter, then by Torah law it is nullified—but where it has permissible times it is not nullified. Most Rishonim explain this by a sevara: “Rather than eating it in a prohibited manner, eat it in a permitted manner”—i.e., there is no reason to permit a problematic case if you can simply wait and eat it in a fully permitted state.
This introduces a novel assumption in the laws of doubt and nullification. We tend to think that when halacha permits, there is no value in stringency. For example, in a rabbinic doubt, or when eating a mixture where the permitted overwhelms, halacha allows leniency—leading many to think there is no prohibition at all, such that the one who is “exempt but does it anyway is called a fool.” But if it were truly a full, unqualified permission, why be stringent even with a thing that has permissible times? You would also now be eating it permissibly—so why wait?[3] How can the Rishonim say that eating it now is “in a prohibited manner,” whereas later it is “in a permitted manner”—when now too it is permitted?
From the law of a thing that has permissible times it would seem that even in cases where halacha permits there remains some degree of prohibition; therefore it may be appropriate to refrain, and the stringent person is praiseworthy. The halachic permission is aimed at those for whom it is difficult or in cases of no alternative. There is no obligation to be stringent in such cases, but it is certainly praiseworthy. This is “deferred” (dechuyah) rather than “wholly permitted” (hutrah). When there is no way to eat permissibly (a thing that has no permissible times), halacha does not obligate stringency, so one may be lenient in a rabbinic doubt or eat a nullified prohibition. But if you have a choice to eat permissibly, there is no license to eat in a prohibited manner. So too we see from the rule that one may not deliberately nullify a prohibition.[4]
But if it is prohibited, why does halacha ever permit it? Even where there is no alternative, “there is no wisdom or counsel against the Lord.” If it is prohibited, it is prohibited. It seems this can be explained as follows: if you have a mixture of prohibition and permission, assuming it were forbidden to eat the whole mixture, we would have to discard the entire mixture and lose the permitted food merely to avoid the prohibition. Again, there is another side to the equation. The side of avoiding the prohibition is clear, but there is also the side of sacrificing permitted property. When one sees this as a two-sided equation, one can understand that halacha has pity on us and says it does not wish to cause us a great loss of permitted food merely to avoid the prohibition.
Again we may ask: where is the line? Does any amount of permitted matter in the mixture allow me to eat all of it? If one permitted piece fell into a pot full of prohibited items, would we allow eating the prohibited items? Again we must decide between two alternatives: eating a prohibition and saving the permitted food, or avoiding the prohibition and losing the permitted food. It is reasonable that halacha set the line at 50%: if the prohibited portion exceeds the permitted, there is no justification to allow prohibition in order to save the permitted. But if the permitted portion is larger, the loss justifies permitting the whole. And again, one could wonder about severe prohibitions and cheap food—perhaps different thresholds would be warranted in different situations. But as noted above, halacha prefers simple, general criteria, and the natural line is 50%. Along with this, one who is more stringent is praiseworthy. If a person sees that the prohibition is severe and the food to be discarded is inexpensive, it is indeed fitting for him to set a different line.
This explanation need not stand alone; it can join other sevarot (e.g., that a mixture does not have the status of “prohibition” and you are not considered to be eating a prohibition, etc.). But if those were the only considerations, I would expect the status to be full permission; in that case, even with a thing that has permissible times we would have permitted. It seems, therefore, that this sevara at least plays a part in the leniencies for rabbinic doubts or nullification by majority.
A similar explanation can be offered with respect to doubts. A rabbinic doubt is not full permission, but halacha has pity on us and does not wish to burden us by prohibiting what is permitted merely to avoid a possible prohibition. Here we are dealing with probabilities rather than quantities, yet the situation is quite similar. For example, in a doubt of muktzeh, if I had to be stringent there is a chance I would be refraining from a necessary use of something permitted. That is an unnecessary burden. It is justified if there is a significant chance of transgression; but if the chance is not significant, there is no justification to prohibit. The line that defines when we allow leniency in a rabbinic doubt is again the midpoint.
So too with following the majority. Following the majority is different from nullification by majority: unlike nullification, it is part of the laws of doubt. In nullification there is no doubt: we know there is prohibition and permission in the mixture and we know the quantities. The ruling is lenient, but there is no uncertainty. By contrast, in following the majority we have a doubt. For example, I find a piece of meat in the street and do not know whether it is kosher. By strict law, if most of the shops in that place are kosher, I may eat it; if not, I may not. That is following the majority. Here there is no nullification but a decision in a case of doubt. In such a case, the explanation will be akin to what I said regarding doubts, not to what I said regarding nullification. We prefer not to prohibit a person from eating the piece if the chance it is prohibited is less than 50%, since there is a chance he will lose kosher food that is rightfully his.
I think the analogy to the sevara I presented earlier—about a decree that most of the public cannot abide by—is now clear. It is the same weighing of cost and benefit between two alternatives; if one wants a general rule, it is sensible to set it at the midpoint. This is what I meant in my reply to Tirgitz when I referenced, in this context, the sevara underlying nullification by majority.
“What is their alternative?”
In conclusion, in my view it is not true that it is equally logical to choose any fraction we wish, as Tirgitz wrote. His error, I believe, is that he ignores the other side of the equation—as many of us tend to do.
Shimon Peres once said of the right-wing opponents of his peace process: “What is their alternative?”—for the right had no alternative that would bring peace. The answer (had he listened) is that indeed there is no alternative—but sometimes one must not choose even the only alternative. Here, too, there was another side to the equation that he tended to ignore: the cost if the peace process fails (failure has a cost; it is not merely a non-success). In such a case—even with no alternative—it is not always right to choose the lone option before us. Peres ignored the other side of the equation and focused on the success of the process and the prospect of peace. He was right as far as that side of the equation goes—but it has another side.
A Closing Note
It still seems clear to me that there is a place for Tirgitz’s sevara: when the benefit or harm is very great, one does not necessarily make a quantitative-majority calculation. There are cases where the Sages will enact a decree even if the majority will not abide by it, or will instruct us to rebuke even when the majority will not heed us, or will forbid nullification by majority despite the absence of “permissible times” (or will permit even when there are “permissible times”).
I have often noted that halachic rules are at best starting points; alongside them one must always consider the specific situation at hand and weigh whether it is right there to deviate from the rules. My claim here, too, concerns only the starting point. Absent a clear consideration warranting departure from the rules, there is strong logic to choose the quantitative majority (51%) as the decision criterion in all these contexts. Where necessary, there is room to deviate from it—both for the individual and for the Sages weighing the principled halachic consideration.
[1] One should indeed distinguish between the analogy and the case at hand, for anyone who observes the decree certainly benefits (by avoiding a prohibition); therefore, imposing the restriction on him is justified. And one who does not observe it is not restricted by it; thus for him there is no “cost” to the decree (only that he becomes a transgressor). Still, it seems one must consider whether in such situations the perspective is communal or individual.
[2] This was the main discussion with Tirgitz and Avishai there in the comments. The Talmud and the Rashba in Shevuot 18 indicate that if a person violates a rabbinic decree and thereby comes to a biblical prohibition that the decree was intended to prevent, he is not an anus (coerced) but an inadvertent sinner (Avishai argued he is deliberate). See also Kli Chemdah at the end of Parashat Balak (sec. 4), citing R. Yehoshua’le of Kutna (author of Yeshuot Malcho).
[3] Later authorities discuss whether nullification by majority is a full permission (hutrah) or “deferred” (dechuyah), and some indeed take the former view. If it is “deferred,” my explanation follows naturally. For those who hold it is full permission, one might, with difficulty, attribute the rule of a thing with permissible times to moral education—to distance a person from prohibitions.
Note that the “hutrah vs. dechuyah” discussion does not necessarily track other questions discussed by later authorities regarding nullification by majority. Two examples: (a) Does the minority portion actually “turn into” permission like the majority or not? One could say it “turns into” permission in the sense that it is permitted to eat, but not that its essence becomes permitted. Even so, the stringent are praiseworthy. In the opposite direction, the linkage between the positions seems stronger. (b) Is the permission as a matter of certainty or of doubt? Again the linkage is not necessary, because the permission could be as a matter of certainty and still be “deferred” rather than full permission.
[4] Though here one could counter that a mixture created by our own hands is not deemed a “mixture,” and the permission never applied there at all. Some Rishonim hold this is a biblical rule. See, for example, here.
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The meaning – according to the simple interpretation – of the word “most” in the Bible is clearly “many” and not روب in our language, which is more than 50%. As they say in the Small Shema (in the sacrifices) and in the closing prayer in Yehoveh”k – “because most of their deeds were confused” (and this is taken from a place in the Bible) and it does not mean that there is a minority of human actions that are not confused. The simple interpretation is certainly according to the context in the Small Shema that their many deeds were confused. And with Mordechai, the simple interpretation is that he is desired for his many brothers and that is it. And he was indeed desired for all his brothers. This is the most accurate interpretation – The second interpretation you brought up, which is that it is about his many brothers who are not a majority (40%, for example) - is also incorrect.
It is not clear whether the Bible contains any word at all to teach a majority against a minority as the sages say. By the way, the contrast in the sages' language between individuals and the many also indicates that the many are the group. For if, for example, there are four individuals who begin to question why they should be called individuals, they would call them a minority. But they realized that the group is according to the majority and that there are no more kibbutzim without it, and these individuals remain.
No. I haven't even met. For example, there is a saying that half of Israel followed Omri and half followed Tzvani ben Ginath. And even there it refers to two parts and not literally half and half. Just as Gideon "divided" his army into three parts.
And so is half the tribe of Manasseh, and so on. But there are also real half, real half and I was not told the half, and so on.
When they say that many who are with us are more than they are, it is actually saying that out of all the armies, we are the majority, that is, the majority is more than the minority (you can define a majority even without counting: there is no function haha and from the minority to the majority).
If the concept of the majority versus the minority really appears in the language only in a later period, this could point against the perception that generations saw the “most as the whole”.
If Reuven had known that the Scripture dictates it, etc.
A. You said that the halfway line is taken as decisive not only if the weights on both sides are equal but also if it is difficult to ascertain the weights of the sides of the equation, and in this way the expected damage is brought to a minimum. This is completely acceptable to me. For reasons of symmetry, no other line can be preferred. But where the weights are known, then this explanation is irrelevant. By following the majority, God knows exactly the weight of permitting a prohibition and prohibiting a permit, and yet He found that they are equal in reduction. That is, the human disadvantage in losing a piece of slaughtered meat is equal to the spiritual harm in eating a piece of carrion. The size of the majority required is according to the ratios of the damages on both sides, and where the ratios of the damages are known, then it is simply improbable that they will be exactly equal and that they will say that the halfway line is decisive. Even in the decrees of the Sages, one can estimate the damages on both sides (it seems that you assume that one cannot estimate. But I see no problem estimating the difficulty of one's refraining from reading compared to the damage of one's calling Vita). And if one did estimate, then it is simply unreasonable for them to conclude that the damage on each side is approximately equal. I never thought of ignoring one side of the equation.
B. And I also understood from your words that even if one knows how to measure the ratio of damages exactly, one still wants to establish a blanket rule. And when there are different and strange damages (expensive and cheap pieces, minor and serious prohibitions), then one takes the halfway line. From this consideration, as far as I understand, there is still no uniqueness in the halfway line. How is it that God did not come up with the most successful blanket rule (which brings the expected total of damages to a minimum, cumulatively across all people and all damages in all directions) to be 54%? A huge miracle.
C. Is there a problem even after abrogation or following the majority? Rabbi Shimon brings “The Torah did not say, ‘Send to the error’” as proof that even if the person who finds out eats the bird with permission because he followed the majority, there is still an error from the Torah [but this is not an agreed-upon interpretation]. And you bring up a rabbinical matter regarding something that has permissiveness (and a matter, apparently, that a rabbinical matter, that a prohibition is not overturned in the first place). But to me, this seems very strange. If it were proper for a person of conscience not to rely on the majority and on abrogations, then this should have appeared in the Gemara and Rishonim in a loud voice. Anyone who drinks milk (even from a single cow) relies on the majority that animals are not predators, and did the Torah scholars of that time not drink milk? It seems to me simple and clear that it is completely permissible to trust the majority, and to eat a prohibition that has been annulled is like eating a cucumber, and in the case of annulment even the president of the Sanhedrin eats all the pieces and is not afraid, and what the sages added reservations (that no annulment is made in the first place, and if some permit then do not trust the annulment) is perhaps to strengthen the importance of the prohibition.
D. By the way, regarding a decree only if the majority of the public can abide by it (as opposed to the low status that a decree that has not been passed down to the majority of the public) I suggested something else. Perhaps the condition on the majority of the public is only in public decrees – such as mourning for the Temple, and such as raising a large animal, and such as oil because of a son-in-law. These are intended to create a general state of mourning, and allow farmers to look after the fields less, and to create a mental distance between Israel and the nations. In all of these, if the majority does as they please and does not look after the decree, then there is no point in the minority keeping it. But in the Torah's restrictive decrees where the decree is for each individual on their own, in this case they may decree even if only one person observes the decree and does not read and thus does not deviate. From the content of the decrees, it is clear that this fits well, but it is not explicit and even in the Rishonim it does not mean it.
1. In my opinion, there is no place where the weights are known. And what God knows is irrelevant. He is not the one making the decisions here, but us. And even if the weights are known, halakhic logic prefers a blanket rule that would be true for all cases. Simplicity and generality are an advantage. Except for the reservations I wrote at the end of the column.
2. As above. You yourself said that if there is a blanket rule, then it makes sense to set it at half. Again, it should be remembered that the sages set the line, not God (even if it is a line from the Torah).
3. I don’t know why this doesn’t appear, and I’m not so sure about the loud cheering. The halakhic law determines what is permitted and what is prohibited. It doesn’t deal with such loud cheering, but only sometimes as a passing remark. For example, the Shabbat of loss after despair appears in the Gemara once in passing, and not with a loud cheering. And in my opinion, this is because it is not a halakhic obligation. In any case, I think this is the truth even if we have no explanation for why it does not appear. The evidence will bear witness to it.
As for drinking milk, eating meat, etc., that is for the sake of argument. There it is said that the strict one will never drink milk at all, anywhere. We have not found such a strict one and there is no need to be one. Incidentally, in both of these cases, it is following the majority and not abrogating it by the majority.
4. A possible explanation but far from being necessary. The distinction between public and private is also not sharp at all.
1. The Holy One said in the court of law, between blood and a wound, they follow the majority of the rabbis. He made the decision. I don't understand what you mean that the Sages made decisions here. And regarding sweeping rules in the Sages' view, there are countless divisions and details, some in sixty, some in a hundred or two hundred, some even in a thousand, wet and dry, some in a kind, some in a kind, some in a fixed and a fixed and a creation, and something that has permissive and something that is in the number, and so on and so forth. To describe the majority laws of the Sages as a sweeping rule is not really faithful to reality.
3. If he urgently needs to taste the taste of milk, then he should drink it once on his wedding day. And at least he should reduce his consumption of milk in order to avoid relying on the majority, and we haven't heard that either. And if milk is permitted, it is completely permitted, and in this product they stop addressing the problematic of following the majority, I wonder.
The evidence provides its witnesses *in the Torah*, from the little I know only about the Shalah for the error, and there they have already found other explanations and I don't know if there is anyone else besides Rabbi Shimon who has suggested that even following the majority and violating the prohibition is an error. And why, because this is a great surprise. To me, regarding something so common and general in the entire Torah, every day, every hour, there is no greater evidence than "we did not see" explicitly.
1. The Holy One made the decision regarding the Beit Din. But the generalizations regarding following the majority and overturning the prohibition and the permission by majority are generalizations of the Sages. And also regarding the Sages, the B’s and the B’s disagreed on whether to follow the majority of wisdom or the majority of people, and you see, everything is the interpretation of the Sages. And according to the Halacha, the B’s determined that one follows the majority of people, meaning even when there are different weights, what determines is the halfway line (although I have already explained the reason given by the Gemara there that they prioritized the words of the B’s over their words, and if it were not for this, they might not have been as decisive as they were).
All these exceptions are also sweeping rules. However, there are epicycles and differences to the great sweeping rule, and each of them has its own logic. But we have not found a different rule to leave everywhere. You remind me of the problem of Occam's razor that tells us to choose the simplest theory, and that quantum theory or relativity are the simplest theories? And yes.
2. My evidence (a matter that has permissibility and abrogation of prohibition in the first place) was given by our witnesses. Therefore, we did not see it as a problem.
And regarding milk and meat, it is clear that where it is impossible to be strict, they did not become strict at all. This is a simple explanation. There is no way to be strict in drinking milk, because whenever you drink, you can always ask why you are drinking and not becoming strict this time too. In such a situation, it is clear that people do not become strict at all, since the Torah was not given to the ministering angels. And in the Gemara in Cholin, we have already seen in the discussion of the opinion of the Rabbis on the minority, whether following the majority is only when it is not possible or also when it is possible.
2. So in Aleppo it was completely permissible to follow the majority and there is no point in excluding, but in other matters there is a virtue in refraining from following the majority. If this is a simple explanation, what is a subordinate explanation?
This is not a matter of prohibition and permission, since there is no obligation to be strict anywhere. The explanation here is not an explanation of prohibition and permission, but an explanation of how a reasonable person should behave. And it is as simple as a sentence.
Seemingly, you brought great evidence from the Jews. But after looking into it, it seems to me that it is not evidence.
There the Gemara tried to learn that following the majority of the Torah is a matter of not being afraid to pierce instead of slaughtering. And perhaps rejecting the Torah where one can clarify, one must clarify. And it proves that even Rabbi Meir demurred to the minority (probably from the rabbis) where one cannot clarify, it is permissible to rely on the majority. In other words, Rabbi Meir only imposes a duty to clarify, and this is like something that permits that until you eat something forbidden, you eat it permitted. In other words, the issue there is whether when there is a majority and it is possible to make an effort to clarify who is from the majority and who is from the minority, do you have to clarify?
So what is the evidence here? It is possible that everything that can be clarified is not stated in the Torah to follow the majority and must be clarified. Because everything that is worthy of clarification is as if it were clarified, and if it is clarified, there is no abrogation of the Torah. But if it is impossible to clarify, then there is a abrogation of the Torah. And the Gemara sought evidence that even when it is possible to clarify, there is a majority of Torah.
On the contrary, there the Gemara has no problem assuming that Rabbi Meir Dehiysh, a minority, believes that in principle it is forbidden to eat meat at all (perhaps only from the rabbis). And if he eats meat out of desire, as it is written, "You shall eat meat according to your desire, even in this he should reduce it as much as he can."
4. Incidentally, regarding the connection to the verse in Malachi about the entire nation, it can be interpreted as follows: Malachi rebukes the disdain for sacrifices and offerings (bread that is not bought, and that blind people approach the sacrifice, etc.) and says that if the disdain continues, the Holy One will harm the crops (and I sent the plague among you, etc.; behold, I will rebuke you for the seed). After the threat was fulfilled and the Holy One harmed the crops and they decreased, what did Israel do? They decreased even more in tithes and offerings because now they have less. And the Holy One is surprised by this, and I sent the plague among them to decrease the crop, and instead of them understanding to increase the donation with a positive eye, they reduce it even more.
Rains in their season and blessings in the crops are something general, and it is impossible in the way of the world that one part will rain and the part that I do not rain on will dry up, and therefore here they follow the majority of the public.
A few weeks ago in a discussion about it would be better if they were thieves
Here https://mikyab.net/שות/מוטב-יהיו-שוגגין-ואל-יהיו-מזידין
You used the explanation of not saying a sin so that your friend will be justified to say why as soon as some hear you say yes, you need to prove it, here I did not see any mention of the matter, why did you not actually use this explanation? Do they say it or not.
Another thing on that matter, if the Gemara writes about a certain case that they refrained from proving it because it would be better if they were thieves, there is a kind of paradox here because this itself is also a rebuke, if the people who violate this halakha read what they write and see that it is actually forbidden, then it is a rebuke.
There is a difference between an individual who considers whether to prove, and there everything depends on whether the one being proved will listen to him or not, and the sages who consider whether to prove the public. In any case, I wrote there that in the Torah they prove even if they don't listen, but in the Drabs they don't prove if they don't listen, and even there if there is a part that is true and a part that is not in my opinion, it should be proven.
What the Gemara writes was not known to the people of that place at that time. The Gemara was written much later. There are more difficult questions of this type, such as places where the Gemara writes laws that are not taught in this way. This is much more problematic, because it is true at any time. And there it seems to me that the explanation is one of two: 1. The Gemara assumed that most of the public does not see what is written in it. This is intended for the Tahsih only. 2. The Gemara, as a fundamental text in halakha, allows itself to write laws that are not taught in this way, otherwise these laws will be forgotten by the world and this is an unbearable price.
I understand that there should be a difference in considerations, which is why I insisted there was a difference between the consideration of a private individual and that of the sages towards the public, you insisted that their consideration was exactly the same as the considerations of a private individual. That is why I asked
This is a different division. In any case, in practice, “it is better to have shoggin” is also stated in private laws, such as the addition of Yok.
The explanation you gave regarding the question of whether to be more severe is from the P.M.G. and the Herm. Schiff, and there is a book about it from the son of R. Menachem Zamba, zt.l. Where did you see this in the R.C.A.?
For some reason I remembered this from Reka, and that Hardziner discussed it. Now I don't have time to look for it.
It is said that Beit Halevi said this in response to Radznir (in the context of Teklet, it was not at the time of the Reka).
From the dependent guilt offering, one can also see that there is room for stricter measures, according to the Maimonides, who says that the Torah is sufficient for all types of spiciness (even in the case of a prohibition, as the Rabbi wrote in Bezel Hochma, parashat Lech Lech).
Very true. Especially according to what I wrote in the spirit of the law and in the Shalah of its roots that the obligation to be strict is because of the essence and not because of the command (therefore the rabbinic doubt about the word). We see that the obligation to be strict is because of the very concern and not because of the transgression of the command. Even without a command, there is an obligation to be strict.
In doubts there is room for aggravation and therefore there is a dependent fault, but in the majority there is no room for aggravation and therefore there is no dependent fault. The innovation in the column concerns the majority and not the doubter (but that doubt is taught lightly and gravely). And the difference is understandable, in doubts the Torah neither forbade nor permitted, but we learn that what the Torah forbade (for example, a bastard) is certainly a bastard, and the Torah did not deal with doubts. And we learn from ourselves that what is not forbidden is permitted. And here it is possible that a problem arises, but it is not serious enough to prohibit it. But in the majority of the Torah it explicitly permitted, after all, if the majority of the judges say that the injury is pure, then it is pure, then why go to the judges, and when the Torah permits something then it is not possible that there will be another Torah-mitzvah problem with it.
R’ Shimon, who said in Sha’ban (as in Tur) that even in the majority there is a point in being stricter, said in P’8221 that if one knows of the doubt and eats with permission, he is not obligated to pay a suspended penalty unless he wishes to bring it, and if he does not know of the doubt and thinks that it is completely permissible and then learns that he is in doubt, then the person will certainly fear in his heart and regret that he has violated the prohibition, and therefore the Torah required him to bring a suspended penalty. But from the spirit of the words here, I perhaps hear that in your opinion a person who is faced with a complete doubt is told that he is permitted to eat, and after he eats, they tell him, “Now go and bring atonement.” To that extent?
In principle, yes. I have not examined the issues to see if this is so, and even if I find it clear that it is possible to divide and exempt a dependent defendant (because this is a different atonement).
In the year 1562, there were ten righteous people in the city.
There was a fear that “it would be better to be a scoundrel” even if it was said about individuals. In such a case, there is no reason not to issue a decree, since the majority of the public as a whole abides by the decree. However, there is a reason not to prove that the one who commits an act unintentionally will become a willful one. “it would be better to be a scoundrel” is a rule in the law of reproof, not a consideration in legislation.
With greetings, Yafa’r
Verse 2
… the one who commits an unintentional sin, lest he become a willful sinner…
[And perhaps that is why the people of Sodom were punished with extreme severity, since Abraham would have rebuked his contemporaries, and therefore their stubbornness was considered a ‘willful sinner’ at the most serious level]