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Another Look at Declarative Halakhot (Column 351)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

A few days ago I was asked about my statements on wiping out Amalek, “lower them and do not raise them,” and the like. Among other things, I said there that I assume these will not be reinstated in the future, and with respect to some of them I even doubted whether they were ever practiced in the past. It follows that there are halakhot that depend on the existence of certain circumstances, and there are halakhot that were never intended to be carried out in practice. In the course of my remarks I noted that, in my view, the latter category includes halakhot with declarative-educational aims, and therefore they were not meant to be implemented. In this column I wish to touch a bit more on this halakhic phenomenon (after the column went up, people pointed out to me that I already wrote about this in Column 293. And there is no study hall without a new insight).

The Sanhedrin Sugya: The Rebellious Son

In Mishna Sanhedrin 71a we find:

If his father wishes and his mother does not wish, or his father does not wish and his mother wishes, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son until they both wish. Rabbi Yehuda says: If his mother was not “fit” for his father, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son.

The Gemara there discusses the meaning of the requirement that his mother be “fit” for his father:

What is “not fit”? If you say [the parents are] in relationships prohibited on pain of karet or capital punishment by the court—after all, his father is his father and his mother is his mother. Rather, it means equal to his father. A baraita likewise teaches so: Rabbi Yehuda says, if his mother is not equal to his father in voice, in appearance, and in stature, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son. What is the reason? For Scripture says “he does not heed our voice”—since equality in voice is required, equality in appearance and stature is required as well.

Halakha requires that the father and mother be equal to one another in voice, appearance, and stature—a requirement that is, of course, almost impossible. It is no wonder that the Gemara immediately proceeds to claim that the rebellious son passage is theoretical law:

In accordance with whom is that which was taught: A wayward and rebellious son never was and never will be; and why was it written? Expound and receive reward. In accordance with whom? In accordance with Rabbi Yehuda. If you wish, say it is Rabbi Shimon, for it was taught: Rabbi Shimon said, Is it because this one ate a tartimar of meat and drank half a log of Italian wine that his father and mother bring him out to be stoned? Rather, it never was and never will be; and why was it written? Expound and receive reward. Rabbi Yonatan said: I saw him and sat upon his grave.

The baraita states that the rebellious son is purely theoretical and will never be implemented. The Gemara offers two possible explanations:

  • It follows Rabbi Yehuda in the Mishna, who imposes impossible requirements for applying this law. On this explanation, this is not a prophetic statement but a consequence of the very low probability that these conditions will be met.
  • It follows Rabbi Shimon, who holds that this law was not meant to be implemented. This can be understood in two ways: (1) In his view it is unreasonable to impose such a punishment for such a minor offense. (2) Even if that were reasonable in itself, it is not reasonable that parents would hand their son over to be executed for such acts. In any case, according to him it is clear that this halakha was never intended to be carried out, but only to be studied and rewarded. I note that the formulation “expound and receive reward” points to explanation (1), for according to (2) this is a valid law requiring practical implementation; thus there is no question why it was written. The fact that parents will not carry it out does not render the writing superfluous. One can counter that the rebellious son law depends on his parents bringing him to court, and therefore even if they choose not to bring him, they transgress no commandment. Still, it seems that on that view the question of why it is written should not arise, since it is a correct, binding law; hence “expound and receive reward” inclines toward interpretation (1).

The attribution to Rabbi Yehuda views this as the result of the Torah’s impossible demands, but in principle this halakha is intended for application: if those extreme conditions were met, we would be obligated to carry it out. By contrast, the attribution to Rabbi Shimon is far more radical, for he says that this law is not meant to be implemented even apart from Rabbi Yehuda’s extreme demands—simply because it is not a correct law, or because people will not carry it out.

Are these two opinions in dispute, or do they complement one another? One could argue there is no dispute: the reason the law is not meant to be implemented is because it is unreasonable (Rabbi Shimon, in the first possibility above), and the way to ensure it will not be implemented is to derive from the Torah impossible conditions (Rabbi Yehuda). On this reading, Rabbi Yehuda’s derashot serve a teleological purpose, but he too understands that this is not the plain sense of the verses. That is very puzzling, for if Rabbi Yehuda agrees this is not the verses’ intent, why the charade? Let him state candidly that this is a theoretical law and therefore not to be carried out. Why play make-believe as if the verse requires conditions that never crossed the Almighty’s mind and are not really in the verse? True, saying outright that we must not fulfill a divine command does not sound acceptable—but on this proposal that is essentially what Rabbi Shimon is doing. There is, of course, a possibility that these derashot truly arise from the verses via the methods of midrash (even if to us they seem very puzzling), i.e., that the Torah itself intended that the rebellious son law be applied only under those conditions, and Rabbi Shimon’s words merely explain the extremity of the demands by describing the Torah’s aim. Rabbi Shimon would then be saying that the reason the Torah imposes such extreme requirements is that it does not want us to implement this precept in practice.

Another possibility is that they indeed disagree. Rabbi Yehuda derives these rulings through the methods of derash, and thus, practically, a rebellious son “never was and never will be.” But in principle the law is not flawed; it seems reasonable and appropriate (and even if not, since the Torah decreed it, it must be fulfilled). Rabbi Shimon, however, claims we must not implement this law because it is not reasonable, and he does not base this on Rabbi Yehuda’s derashot. In his view there is no halakhic requirement that the parents be equal in voice, appearance, etc., and yet we have the authority to determine that a given law was not intended for practical implementation. The Yad Ramah ad loc. writes that these are indeed disputing views, explaining that according to Rabbi Yehuda the parents would bring him to court because they understand he is judged for his end (that he is destined to prey upon people).

The sugya concludes with Rabbi Yonatan saying that he himself saw a case of a rebellious son and even sat on his grave. In other words, in his view this law is actionable and was in fact implemented in the past. Moreover, it is likely that he holds there are no such extreme requirements regarding the parents, and therefore it could be implemented. With difficulty one could say that he agrees such requirements exist, but he saw a case in which, against all odds, they were met.

I would only note that it is unlikely Rabbi Yonatan literally saw a rebellious son stoned, since capital punishments were no longer practiced in his time (if they were ever practiced at all; see below). Note he says he saw him and also sat on his grave. Furthermore, if he testifies that he saw a rebellious son, how can other Tannaim dispute the law’s applicability?![1] It may be that he is merely expressing, in a literary way, a firm a priori assertion that there cannot be halakhot not intended for implementation. Therefore it is obvious to him that there was a rebellious son (or at least there could have been),[2] and for him it is as if he saw him and even sat on his grave.

The Sanhedrin Sugya: The Condemned City and the Leprous House

The Gemara there continues and brings another case:

In accordance with whom is that which was taught: A condemned (idolatrous) city never was and never will be; and why was it written? Expound and receive reward. In accordance with whom? In accordance with Rabbi Eliezer, as it was taught: Rabbi Eliezer says, any city that contains even a single mezuzah cannot become a condemned city. What is the reason? For Scripture says, “and you shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its square and burn with fire,” and since if there is a mezuzah it is impossible [to destroy], as it is written, “You shall not do so to the Lord your God.” Rabbi Yonatan said: I saw it and sat upon its ruins.

Here, only two interpretive options arise. The possibility that this follows Rabbi Shimon—that the punishment is unreasonable and therefore not to be implemented—is not raised; only an opinion paralleling Rabbi Yehuda’s appears. This perhaps slightly strengthens the reading that even above, in the rebellious son case, Rabbi Shimon’s concern is that the parents will not bring him to court, not that the punishment itself is unreasonable. Here such a possibility cannot be entertained, since this does not depend on the parents, and therefore such a view is not cited.

At the end of the sugya a third case is brought:

In accordance with whom is that which was taught: A leprous house never was and never will be; and why was it written? Expound and receive reward. In accordance with whom? In accordance with Rabbi Elazar son of Rabbi Shimon, as we learned in a Mishna: Rabbi Elazar son of Rabbi Shimon says: A house is never impure until [the lesion] is seen like two grisin on two stones on two walls in a corner, its length as two grisin and its width as one gris. What is his reasoning? It is written “wall” (kir) and it is written “walls” (kirat); which wall is like walls? You must say: a corner.

Here only one possibility appears: it is unlikely that the conditions will ever be met. Apparently here we cannot assume that the punishment is unreasonable, since we are speaking of demolishing a house and not executing people, and besides, demolition is not a punishment at all.

Summary of the Sugya

We saw three halakhot and three approaches to them: With the rebellious son, there is the possibility that the punishment is unreasonable and therefore not to be implemented; the possibility that the requirements for application are so extreme that probabilistically they will not be met; and the view that the punishment is applicable and even occurred. With the condemned city we saw the latter two possibilities. With the leprous house only the second possibility exists.

Note that these are three halakhot in which the Torah mandates very extreme measures (demolishing a person’s house is also very extreme), and therefore one can ask whether the intention is that they be realized in practice. However, the a priori assessment that the measure is unreasonable, from which one concludes it is not to be implemented, appears only in the rebellious son (per Rabbi Shimon), and even there it is not clear. It may be that Rabbi Shimon merely assesses that the parents will not carry it out, and not that the punishment is unreasonable.

Why Were These Halakhot Written?

The obvious question is why the Torah writes these passages at all. If indeed they will not be realized in practice—whether like Rabbi Shimon or like Rabbi Yehuda—why write them? The Gemara itself addresses this and explains: “Expound and receive reward.” Above I noted that this wording points to option (1) in Rabbi Shimon: he holds the law is unworthy and therefore not meant to be implemented.

But this is still puzzling for several reasons. First, are we lacking topics with practical application to study and be rewarded for? Second, why is there value in studying and being rewarded for a sugya with implausible, irrational rulings? What can be learned from them? That, of course, depends on the explanations we proposed for Rabbi Shimon. At least according to the explanation that the punishment is unreasonable and therefore not to be implemented, it is not clear why the Torah would write a passage that prescribes an unreasonable measure. Perhaps that in itself shows that this is not the correct explanation of Rabbi Shimon; rather, he means that in practice parents will not bring the child to judgment, not that the punishment is unreasonable.

In Torat Chaim on this sugya, the author struggles with this:

“And why was it written? Expound and receive reward.” At first glance this is astounding: since the purpose of Talmud Torah is that it leads to action, what benefit is there in learning something that has no practical application? This is no question, for there is no [thorn]* in the Torah and no commandment without a secret in the Essence of the Blessed One, as it is said, “God understood its way, and He knew its place”—“its place” means its foundation and root in His very Essence. And whoever engages in Torah, even if he does not perform [its commandments], is engaging in His holy honor and cleaves his intellect to the Blessed One. And this is what is said in Perek Rabbi Akiva: When Moses ascended on high, the ministering angels said, ‘Master of the Universe, a treasure hidden from the six days of Creation You seek to give to flesh and blood? Set Your splendor upon the heavens!’ Moses answered them: ‘What is written in it? “Remember the Sabbath day”—do you do work? “You shall not bear [God’s name in vain]”—do you have commerce among you?’ etc. And in Midrash Shocher Tov he also mentioned zavim and metzorayim, nidah and yoledet. And it is said there that when Israel made the Golden Calf, the ministering angels rejoiced and said: ‘Now the Torah will return to us.’ At first glance, how could the angels think this? Did they not know they are not subject to the performance of mitzvot? It seems as we explained: there are two aspects in Torah—action and hearing (i.e., apprehending through it God’s honor and holiness). It entered the angels’ minds that “hearing” alone suffices, and it would be preferable to the Blessed One to give it to them, since they are spiritual and have greater power to apprehend His honor through it than Israel, who are human. He answered them: ‘Do you have among you zavim and metzorayim…?’—that certainly both are preferable. And so it appears in Midrash Rabbah on Esther: when Israel enjoyed Ahasuerus’s feast, Satan stood and accused, saying before Him: ‘Until when will You cleave to this nation? Destroy them from the world!’ He said to him: ‘And what will become of the Torah?’ He said to Him: ‘Master of the Universe, be satisfied with the upper beings,’ and the Holy One, blessed be He, also inclined to wipe out Israel… Since it does not say “give it to the upper beings” but “be satisfied with the upper beings,” it implies thus: From the outset You did not give the Torah to the upper beings because You would not be satisfied with them, since they have only “hearing” without “action.” Now that Israel are not fulfilling it, be satisfied with the upper beings with “hearing” alone.”[3]

He explains that from every passage in the Torah one can learn various spiritual lessons, irrespective of the halakhot it addresses; this applies to these three passages as well. Still, it must be understood why we learn spiritual lessons from a passage whose halakhic plain sense is incorrect and unreasonable. It is generally assumed that every passage is to be interpreted on the level of peshat and on the level of sod, and on both levels it yields correct meanings we must learn from.

R. Yisrael Salanter, in his essay “Hok u-Mishpat,” asks this question too. His claim is that these passages were written to teach the principle of “expound and receive reward,” namely, that study is not only in order to know what to do but has intrinsic value. This then serves as a prototype for all Torah study (not only for these passages). One can still ask: why write an incorrect or unreasonable passage in order to teach this lesson? Let a correct, yet non-applicable, lesson be written. On his view it is more plausible that the passage is correct but, for some reason, not meant for practical implementation. Somewhat like “the law is [technically] X but we do not teach/practice so”—only more extreme: the law is X, and we teach to act otherwise (i.e., not only do we not publicize it; even one who knows it is not meant to carry it out).

This can be phrased slightly differently. It could be that these verses are declarative-educational: in principle, it would be appropriate to do so, but for various reasons it is not correct to implement these directives in the practical world. The verses were written for an educational-declarative purpose: to teach us what ought to be done and how, according to the Torah, one should relate to such situations and actions. The fact that we do not do so in practice is for collateral reasons. Many explain in this spirit the category of “the law is X but we do not teach so,” such as “one who has relations with an Aramean woman—zealots may strike him.” This is indeed the right thing to do, but practically it can be harmful and breed illegitimate zealotry; therefore the Torah prefers not to instruct it (though in that case it is meant to be carried out by one who truly understands it is appropriate, like Pinhas).

Note that this proposal combines the two directions raised above (Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi Shimon). The step mandated in these three situations is, in principle, proper and correct—even according to Rabbi Shimon. Therefore it is fitting to legislate so, for by doing so we declare that such acts deserve such a punishment and that such a step is proper in such cases. However, Rabbi Shimon holds that, for some reason, it is not correct to implement it as is. For example, a rebellious son destined to prey upon the public certainly deserves to be stoned, but there are reasons not to implement this in practice, and therefore it will not occur. Courts will not sentence a rebellious son to death. Why, then, did the Torah write the passage? To teach children—and us—what the value of such actions is and what would be appropriate to do in response. Perhaps the very writing of this law will prevent the rebellious son phenomenon, and thus obviate its practical implementation. That is the declarative-educational achievement for which it was written.[4]

As for the reason not to implement it in practice, several suggestions can be made. For example, that this is a purely educational-deterrent statement and not a practical command. Underlying this is the assumption that the son’s guilt and the offense itself are not all that severe, and thus do not justify such a harsh punishment. True, he may in the future come to serious acts, and then perhaps the punishment would be justified (as with a pursuer or a burglar tunneling in, who are judged by their end), but at this stage the “punishment” serves only prevention and not retribution. One could therefore say it is an unjustified punishment for this act, and even considerations of future prevention do not necessarily justify disproportionate punishment. A similar consideration appears in Derashot ha-Ran, Derush 11, regarding hatra’ah (forewarning):

We will further explain: setting aside one side of the issue, we learned in Perek “Hayu Bodkin” (Sanhedrin 40b): “The Sages taught: ‘Do you recognize him?’… ‘Did you warn him?’ ‘Did he accept the warning?’ ‘He permitted himself to death?’ ‘[Did he] kill within the span of speaking?’ etc.” There is no doubt that all this is proper from the standpoint of just judgment, for why should a person be put to death unless he knew he was bringing himself into a matter liable to death and transgressed it? Hence he must accept forewarning, and all the other matters taught there—that is true, essential just judgment entrusted to judges. But if the transgressor is punished only in this way, the political order will utterly collapse: murderers will proliferate and will not fear punishment. Therefore the Blessed One commanded, for the sake of the world’s settlement, the appointment of a king, as it is written in this section (Deut. 17:14–15): “When you come into the land… you shall set, set over you a king,” which is a mitzva that we were commanded to appoint a king, as received by our Sages (Sanhedrin 20b). And the king can judge even without forewarning, as he sees is necessary for the political collective.

The Ran explains that in essence it would be right to punish a deliberate sinner even without forewarning, since we must deter criminals. He argues that if we insist on all the forewarning rules (the witnesses warn him, he accepts the warning and says “Yes, and on that condition I do it”—see Tosefta Sanhedrin, beginning of ch. 11), no one will ever be punished, and deterrence will vanish. Therefore general law (“the law of the king”) requires punishing even without forewarning to deter, although without forewarning the criminal’s guilt is not fully complete (in itself perhaps he does not deserve punishment). But Torah law, unlike the king’s law, holds that if he himself does not deserve punishment, public-deterrence considerations alone do not justify punishing him (it is not “just judgment,” in his words). And that is exactly my point.

In this connection it is worth noting the famous responsum of the Rashba (IV, no. 413), where he exempts a community from all of Torah law’s judicial rules (evidence, procedure, punishments) when they judge for the city’s welfare. There they may act according to rules of evidence and procedure as seems fit (apparently accepting one witness, self-incrimination, women’s testimony, etc.). One sees that beyond the rules the Torah set, there is a need to judge more flexibly for the sake of the polity and the public. Alternatively, one sees that judging strictly by the Torah will not achieve those aims.

“An Eye for an Eye”

This explanation naturally brings us to the “eye for an eye” passage. There too the Sages expound that we do not remove the offender’s eye but impose monetary liability. Again the question arises: why does the Torah not state this explicitly? Why write an incorrect formulation and leave it to the midrashic tradition to reinterpret?

Many explained that the Torah is telling us that, ideally, one should remove the eye, but for various reasons we do not do so in practice. The plain sense indicates what ought to be done, while the derash tells us what is done in practice. Here we have an example of a Torah directive not meant for implementation, although the assumption is that it is in fact a fitting punishment.

But there the Sages interpreted the verse and removed it from its plain sense. Thus it is not an ideal example for our topic, which is whether one may determine, without such midrashic backing, that a Torah directive was not intended for practical implementation. Rabbi Shimon on the rebellious son is of course a better example.

The Death Penalty

Aharon Shemesh, of blessed memory, in his book on biblical punishments, argued that capital punishments were never actually practiced. He claims the entire system was conceptualized and developed in a period when capital punishment had already been abolished. I have not read the book, and at first glance this seems puzzling to me, since the Sages have several descriptions implying such punishments were practiced (otherwise what does it mean they were “abolished”? That implies there was a period in which they did occur), and they ceased only when murderers multiplied, etc. For our purposes, I merely wish to present this view as another example of our principle.

In this context it is apt to cite the Mishna at the end of the first chapter of Makkot (7a):

A Sanhedrin that executes once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Elazar ben Azaria says: Once in seventy years. Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva say: Were we on the Sanhedrin, no person would ever be executed. Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel says: They too would increase bloodshed in Israel.

The trend in the first part of the Mishna is to minimize capital punishment, but that does not turn it into a purely theoretical institution. Still, there seems to be an undertone of the principle I suggest here: reading the Torah simply, one should punish anyone liable to death rather than contrive to circumvent the Torah’s directive. There seems to be a subtext that it is not appropriate to carry out such punishments in practice, and therefore we minimize them as much as possible.

Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Tarfon, in the latter clause of the Mishna, go a step further and claim that capital punishment is not meant for implementation at all. The Gemara explains they would interrogate the witnesses with questions that cannot be answered (was there a puncture where the sword was? did you see like a paintbrush in a tube? etc.), i.e., they propose to use extreme interpretive and procedural devices to circumvent the Torah’s prescribed punishment. This is very similar to what we saw with Rabbi Shimon: he views a Torah command as not meant for practical implementation. Admittedly, here they proceed more like Rabbi Yehuda, using (extreme) interpretive moves to avoid death sentences rather than simply declaring that the command is not to be carried out.

It is interesting that Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel’s argument against them is not substantive. It may be that he agrees in principle that it is not appropriate to execute for such offenses, but he argues that such a policy will increase bloodshed—i.e., there will be no deterrence. Precisely as we saw in the Ran regarding forewarning cited above.[5]

Disqualified Witnesses[6]

As is known, the disqualification of relatives as witnesses does not stem from a concern about reliability; it is a personal disqualification by scriptural decree. This is explicit in the Gemara and codified in the Rambam and Shulchan Arukh. Students usually accept this with equanimity, and in my estimation that is because even if we disqualify relatives’ testimony nothing dramatic happens: at most a criminal will go unpunished (or we will imprison him rather than execute him). But imagine the following case: two witnesses testify that Reuven murdered Shimon. Two brothers then come and render the first pair false witnesses (hazama). What should we do? Seemingly, the brothers’ testimony is invalid; therefore the first testimony remains valid and we must execute Reuven as a murderer. On the other hand, we saw that relatives’ testimony is not unreliable per se; factually the first witnesses lied and Reuven did not murder Shimon. Can it be that the court would execute Reuven in such a case?

I have already written that I have no doubt it would not. In such a case the court must acquit Reuven, or at least recuse itself. Admittedly, it is quite clear we would not apply the law of hazama to the first witnesses when the renderers are relatives. If so, we see that the disqualification of relatives is not always meant to be implemented.

Now consider the opposite direction. At the beginning of Sanhedrin 24 the Rambam rules that in civil cases the requirement of two witnesses is not essential; a court may rule on the basis of other evidence, provided the court is convinced of the truth (unlike criminal punishment, where the demand for witnesses is absolute; see the beginning of ch. 20 there).[7] Now consider the case where two brothers testify that Reuven stole from Shimon. They are indeed disqualified witnesses—but not due to unreliability. Therefore, when the judges wish to know whether Reuven in fact stole, the answer is yes. True, they may not rely on relatives as witnesses, but they can use their testimony as an umdena (assessment), for factually the court knows Reuven stole. I have seen several later authorities write that in such a case we do not extract the money from Reuven, because there is a scriptural decree not to rely on relatives’ testimony. In my view, we certainly should extract the money on the basis of the umdena. And what of the disqualification of relatives in civil cases? That is a theoretical law not meant for practical implementation.[8]

One Who Stuck a Loaf to the Oven

In Shabbat 4a the Gemara discusses one who stuck a loaf to the oven and it is now baking. When the baking finishes he will have violated the melakha of cooking/baking and be liable to stoning. If he removes it before it bakes he will avoid stoning, but the removal itself is rabbinically prohibited. The Gemara asks whether one may remove the loaf in violation of a rabbinic prohibition in order to avoid liability for stoning.

The Gemara’s simple assumption is that if he leaves the loaf to bake and obeys the prohibition against removing it, he will indeed be liable to stoning—even though his refraining from removal was due to obedience to a rabbinic prohibition. Indeed, Rishonim and Aharonim grapple with why this is not considered coercion (ones) and offer answers. Yet Tosafot (s.v. “kodem”) ask there:

“If you say, what is the question whether they permitted removing it? Obviously he will not listen to us if we forbid it.”

Tosafot assume that even if it were prohibited, a reasonable person would not obey the Sages in such a case and would remove the loaf even if we forbade it; he would prefer to transgress a rabbinic prohibition to save his life.[9] But Tosafot continue and claim that if this is the situation, then it cannot be genuinely prohibited. Their premise is that there cannot be a prohibition that is not meant for practical compliance.

For this reason Tosafot must resolve:

“Riva answered that if they did not permit it, he would not be liable to stoning, since his refraining from removal is due to our forbidding him.”

That is, in truth there would be no liability to stoning because he refrains only due to the prohibition (it is unclear whether this is an exemption of coercion or some other exemption). In such a case there is a chance he will listen to us, and therefore there is room to say that such a prohibition exists.

But in Rashi there (3b) it appears that even if there were a prohibition to remove the loaf, one who refrains would still be liable to stoning. One can deflect this reading of Rashi, but I cite this view—which certainly exists among Rishonim and Aharonim in the sugya—as another example of our point: on that view it is quite possible for there to be a prohibition that is not meant for practical compliance. We must remember this is a rabbinic prohibition: the Sages could have refrained from forbidding removal if they knew the public would not obey it (in such a case it would seem that even if they did forbid it, the decree would be null, since the public cannot uphold it). Why, then, did they forbid it? I propose that this prohibition is declarative-educational. Perhaps Rashi holds the prohibition is meant to educate the public and show them how severe the Sabbath is—that even a rabbinic prohibition is not overridden to save oneself. In practice people will transgress it, but perhaps this declarative statement will itself prevent the need, because people will understand from the outset and not stick the loaf. On my proposal, this halakha serves to deter and educate but is not meant to be enforced in practice. Moreover, on this proposal it may be that even if we forbade removal, one who removed would not be punished for a rabbinic violation, because this is not a law meant for practical implementation.

A similar question arose for me when learning the chapter “Kol Kitvei ha-Kodesh” in Shabbat. The Gemara deals there with the rabbinic prohibition against rescuing one’s possessions from a burning house on Shabbat, lest under pressure one forget it is Shabbat and come to extinguish. Note that in such a case even extinguishing the fire directly is only rabbinically prohibited (extinguishing not for charcoal production is a melakha she-eina tzricha le-gufa). Therefore, a fortiori we should permit even extinguishing itself, and all the more so permit rescue despite the fear he might come to extinguish. Yet the Sages forbid this. Now ask yourself: is there anyone who will uphold such a prohibition? Your entire property is going up in flames, and you are to stand by and neither extinguish nor save—save for food for three meals and holy books and appurtenances. It seems to me that hardly any reasonable person would comply with such a halakhic directive. People will prefer to transgress a rabbinic prohibition and live the rest of their lives normally. Moreover, what they save will enable them to perform many Torah commandments, grant them mental and physical health—all at the price of violating a light rabbinic decree made only lest one violate another rabbinic prohibition. It therefore seems that this too is a declarative-educational halakha not meant for practical compliance. We want to educate people about the gravity and sanctity of Shabbat, but we do not actually expect them to comply.[10]

Incidentally, in practice many decisors apply very liberally the Rema’s statement that nowadays the prohibition does not apply because of danger to neighbors’ lives, and pikuach nefesh overrides all prohibitions, of course. One can stretch this line of concern endlessly (there is always some risk the fire will spread; perhaps neighbors are in their apartments unaware of the blaze, etc.). Perhaps even the Rema himself wrote this like Rabbi Yehuda—i.e., as a reading intended to enable one to “evade” and rescue and even extinguish. But among the decisors who follow him, my impression is very clear that this is indeed their intent. For my part, I prefer intellectual honesty: simply say this is a halakha not meant for implementation, rather than employ far-fetched dispensations (i.e., in situations where there is no genuine danger to life).

Reconciling the Sugyot

Tosafot in Shabbat speak of a rabbinic prohibition (removing the loaf) and say that if it is not meant for compliance it is not prohibited. How does this fit with Sanhedrin, where we saw that the Torah may include commandments not meant for practical implementation? One might attempt to distinguish between prohibitions (lo ta’aseh) and positive commands (mitsvot ‘aseh): perhaps prohibitions cannot be such, while positive commands (like demolishing a leprous house, burning a condemned city, and executing the rebellious son) can be declarative. But this distinction does not seem compelling.

It is more plausible that Tosafot understand that there we are dealing with Torah-level commandments, and the Torah can include commands not meant for practical implementation in order to teach a theoretical lesson. But rabbinic decrees are meant for practice; if they do not achieve the practical aim, the Sages would not legislate them. In other words, Tosafot do not claim that a norm not meant for practical compliance is no norm at all; they only claim that, in such a case, the Sages would not legislate it. On this basis, in principle, if they nonetheless legislated it, Tosafot might agree that it would possess binding force and one who violates it has transgressed.

Back to the Opening Examples

Returning now to the examples with which I opened: whether according to Rashi or according to Tosafot, those are declarative-educational directives not meant for practical implementation, since they are Torah-level commands and not rabbinic decrees.

By way of a postscript I add that, of course, there are cases and directives that at some stage were meant for practical implementation, but as circumstances change one can reconsider their practical application. In a society with different culture and values, there are directives we ought not to implement. The rationales presented are usually “we lack coercive power,” “there is no one capable of rebuking properly,” “appearance’s sake,” “ways of peace,” “desecration of God’s name,” “its ways are ways of pleasantness,” and the like—but I sense that not infrequently behind them stands a substantive view that nowadays these should not be implemented. That is: the law is X, and we instruct not to act accordingly (and not merely “the law is X and we do not teach it”).

[1] It is unlikely they are disputing the earlier court that carried it out.

[2] It need not have occurred in fact. In principle, there could well have been no child who qualified as a rebellious son. But in his view the possibility must exist, for that is the law’s essence.

[3] His words also resolve a difficulty in the midrash he cites: what did the angels think when they sought to keep the Torah for themselves? Moses’s answer is trivial: they have no parents, they do not work and have no need for Sabbath rest, there is no murder or theft among them, etc. So what did they do with the Torah before it descended, and what did they want to do with it were it to remain? It follows that even in the halakhic parts of the Torah there are spiritual faces relevant also to angels, and the halakhic implementation is but the worldly application of those spiritual principles. I discussed this at length in my lecture series “What Is Torah,” especially lecture 9.

[4] I believe I once wrote that the punishments of Gehinnom appear to me to be a similar phenomenon. After a person dies, there is no utility to a punishment his soul would receive. He will not return here to implement anything, and those left here do not know whether he was punished. It is therefore quite plausible that there is a declaration of punishment in Gehinnom, but the Holy One will not actually execute it. It is a declaration meant to achieve deterrence and educational results, but there is no need—and no value—in carrying it out.

[5] I have already explained elsewhere that the difference likely relates to their roles. R. Akiva and R. Tarfon were not on the Sanhedrin, and thus bore no leadership responsibility for public order; they could therefore indulge a purist application of halakha. But Rabban Gamliel was the head of the Sanhedrin and, as such, had to ensure deterrence and prevent murder. Therefore he does not accept their proposal, even if he perhaps agrees in principle. Using the Ran’s distinction, one can say that Rabban Gamliel adopts here the king’s policy, while R. Akiva and R. Tarfon articulate Torah’s pure justice. In Column 164 (and elsewhere) I explained that in that period the Nasi of the Sanhedrin also functioned as king.

[6] On this matter, see my essay “What Is a Scriptural Decree?” and the Migo booklet here on the site.

[7] See there that this rule is no longer practiced today, at least not simply. Its source is in the Rif; this is not the place to elaborate.

[8] Perhaps it could be applied where the court is not truly convinced—i.e., it has doubts about the witnesses’ credibility apart from their being relatives. But in such a case the disqualification is not due to their kinship. For any two witnesses about whose credibility the court has doubts, I recuse myself from the case (this is what halakha calls a “suspect case,” din merumeh).

[9] One could also ask about the force of such a rabbinic prohibition, for pikuach nefesh overrides all prohibitions of the Torah. This also raises the question of “coercion on the final day,” whether such a case is considered coercion, and more. The sugya has many fundamental aspects that I cannot address here.

[10] Seemingly, this Gemara challenges Tosafot’s position cited above: Tosafot said that a (rabbinic?) prohibition not meant for compliance is not prohibited, whereas here we see it is. With difficulty one could say that, if the price is property and not life, reasonable people will comply, or that the proportion of people who will comply justifies imposing the prohibition.


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60 תגובות

  1. I have never understood how it is possible for one Tanah to say that a rebellious and mischievous son did not exist and will not exist, and the other says that he saw a case where it happened.

    1. The Rabbi explained: "I will only note that it is unlikely that Rabbi Yonatan actually saw a rebellious son who was stoned, since the death penalty was no longer in force at that time (if it ever was. See below). It should be noted that he writes that he saw him and also sat on his grave. Furthermore, if he testifies that he saw a rebellious son, how can other sources dispute the applicability of this law?! [1] It is possible that his intention was merely to express in a literary manner a firm, a priori, principled determination that there can be no laws that are not intended to be applied. Therefore, it is clear to him that he was a rebellious son (or at least could have been)[2], and from his perspective it is as if he saw him and even sat on his grave."

      1. All of this is vort. The simple explanation of the Gemara (baraita) is that the moment R’ Yonatan came and testified that he saw him and sat on his grave, it is a situation of “if we accept, we accept” and there is no “if there is a law, there is a reply to it” and the halakha is like it (and everyone accepted his words). This is why he is mentioned last in all these baraita. To say that this is a “literary expression, etc.’ sounds very much like an amaretz to me. That is, excuses and justifications. Or vort. I also don't know why the deaths of the Beit Din were annulled. It just seems that as long as there was a Sanhedrin, there were also deaths in the Beit Din. And the Sanhedrin abdicated about in the middle of the fifth Nemah of the Sefa”n, long after these conditions. This entire discussion is suspected of being influenced by the sociologization of the law and the introduction of foreign values from outside (or if you will, anachronism of the law. Seeing it through modern eyes. It seems that in the ancient world, at least during the time of the Bible and probably also during the time of the Sages, there was no moral problem except for a rebellious son and teacher who was killed in the name of the future or for the sake of meat, etc. And we need to understand Rabbi Shimon and that's it). From the perspective of the Bible, it doesn't seem like all the arguments were theoretical. And how the resident is found within the "biblical law" really needs to be explained well and not sought for excuses and justifications. If someone has a moral problem with the law, then they have two texts that deny each other and will wait for the third text to decide between them. But it is written as a true third (a good explanation of how the law is indeed moral or alternatively overrides morality or what we think is not really the law) and not a vert.

        1. די"נ בטלו ארבעים שנה לפני חורבן הבית (לעמנואל) says:

          On the 15th of Tevet 5,

          To Emmanuel, Shalom Rav,

          In the GEM (Sanhedrin 14, Avoda Zara 8) it is explained that forty years before the destruction of the Second Temple, the Sanhedrin was exiled from the grove and lived in shops so that they would not have to adjudicate cases of death. Since Rabbi Yonatan was a student of Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Akiva, who lived after the Bar-Kochba revolt, there is no way that he saw the word "su" literally.

          In the Ketubot 3, it is stated that after the destruction of the Temple, cases of death ceased, and they explained that during the forty years before the destruction, they ceased to adjudicate cases regularly, except in special cases. But even according to the text, After the destruction of the Second Temple, the laws of Nefshotz were completely abolished. After all, sixty years before the time of Rabbi Jonathan, the laws of Nefshotz were abolished.

          A remote city could only exist when the people of Israel had an independent government, which means: at the latest in 63 BCE, two hundred years before Rabbi Jonathan!

          Moreover, Rabbi Jonathan was a priest (see his assessment in Toldot Tannaim and Amoraim by Rabbi Aharon Heiman), and there is no way he would sit on the grave of a rebellious and rebellious son. Even the requirement of “and his father and mother caught him” makes the possibility of the Summum clearly unworkable. What “Jewish mother” Tadush to execute her son for eating meat and wine?

          In short: Although we found descriptions of the execution of the death penalty in the sources, we did not find any description, neither for the son of Su, nor for the distant city, and this is saying something ‘preacher’.

          With greetings, Aner Eshkol Fishel Brok”a

          1. In relation to a rebellious son and a teacher, this is not difficult, and in fact it is not difficult for the remote city either. Rabbi Yonatan said this when he was an old man (he was an old student of Rabbi Akiva). There are 63 years between the destruction of the Second Temple and the Bar Kochba revolt. Rabbi Akiva's students were already alive at that time. So it is certainly possible that he saw the execution of a rebellious son and a teacher when he was a teenager. This is a much better argument than him saying literary things. Why did he sit if he was a priest is a good question, but it does not exactly constitute decisive evidence. In relation to the remote city, it is not clear why we need to be under independent rule. As far as I remember, there is no need for a king to carry it out. Nor did it require all of Israel to go to war against it because perhaps it was a small city. In any case, at most, these are difficulties, but they are not enough to take Rabbi Yonatan's words out of context.

            1. Come on. Exactly. R’ Yonatan had the chance to find both a wayward son and a remote city (I wonder why he didn't also sit on the ruins of the house of the afflicted one), and no one else heard or saw. Why is a remote city a Higgs boson that we need an entire institute to search for it? If such an act existed, then we would know when it was and who the sages decided and what the name of the city was and what kind of ez they worked on and whether the street stalls there sold lentil stew or pita bread toppings. It is clear that this is a literary expression in his opinion. And from your strange insistence that in the time of Chazal there was no moral problem with a wayward son, you - in the honesty of a commentator worthy of the decoration of the masterpiece - put R’ Shimon in the act, who was explicitly surprised at how this man would kill poor meat on a piece of meat. Look at the Rambam's laws (Mamariam, Chapter 7) and say that the sages demanded all this or that the Kabbalah conveyed all this regardless of the moral problematics that exist in the interpretation according to the plain text alone. It is a fanatical fantasy to think that the sages ignored value considerations (including moral ones) in their sermons and interpretations or to think that their morality was so different from ours.

              1. What do you want? This is testimony among the Tannaim. It is indeed strange but certainly not “certainly this is a literary method, etc.” The reality was after the Bar Kochba rebellion and also the death of the disciples of R’ Akiva, who was the world's name until he came and taught many of us in the south, etc. In other words, the reality of T’H was rare. Beyond the fact that the archaeological history in the land before the destruction of the Temple was destroyed by the Romans. It is reasonable that within a small group of Tannaim there would be one old man who would testify to his younger friends about realities that existed before the destruction of the Temple and that none of them knew. The morality in the time of Chazal was indeed a little different from that of the Bible, but it was much closer to the time of the Bible than our time. And being a rebel and a teacher was serious business then (you can read the prophets). The Sages only went into detail to say that it was condemned for its end, but in the biblical period they probably didn't have to go into detail about this sermon. It was just a simple one and that was enough. Even in relation to an eye for an eye, etc. The Sages saw this as a sermon that was written in the verses themselves and that was also true from the time of Moses. It's just that apparently "eye" in the ancient medicine could really be interpreted (in biblical legal Hebrew) as money and also as a literal eye, and the Sages said that this was the first Pharisee. All these claims that the Sages are changing the Torah - the core of its difficult laws - according to the morals, are not serious. They turn the Torah into a joke. Anyone who believes this has no point in studying Torah. In any case, he will do what he believes in. Why push it into the Torah? Do what you believe in. By the way, I don't believe the world is really more moral today. It's more refined. It's like the cat that was trained by a waiter who, as soon as he sees a mouse, will drop everything and chase it.

              2. On the 16th of Tevet 15th of A.D.

                To Emmanuel, Greetings,

                You are welcome to find historical evidence of the execution of a ‘disobedient and mischievous son’ in the people of Israel.

                I know of ‘evidence to the contrary’.
                King David, whose son Absalom rebelled against him, did not do so for the sake of a “piece of meat and half a jug of wine,” but rather sought to kill his father (as David says: “Behold, my son who came forth from my body seeks my life,” and so Ahithophel proposes to Absalom: “And I will strike the king,” and Absalom agrees).

                And now, when David defeats his rebellious son, he commands the commanders of his army: “Let me not be slow to fall to Absalom,” and when David hears that his son who sought his life has been killed, he cries out and weeps: “My son Absalom, my son Absalom, may I die instead of you, Absalom, my son my son.”

                And King David, as we know, was not a ‘vegetarian of a good heart 🙂 and knew how to kill enemies and rebels, but in the face of his son who rebelled against him and wanted to kill him – the father's heart was broken, so go and find a father and mother in biblical times who would send their gluttonous and gluttonous son to the house of stoning?

                We found one historical testimony about a Jewish king who would serially execute his sons on suspicion that they had conspired to rebel against him. Even the Roman Augustus was puzzled by this cruel behavior, and said: ‘It is better to be Herod's pig than his son, for Herod does not kill his own pig for reasons of kosher…’

                But Herod is the exception that does not prove the rule. A man immersed in madness and suspicious of ‘the whole world and his wife’ That they seek to kill him, and he also did not send his sons to be killed except out of fear of rebellion

                With blessings, Ben-Zion Yohanan Korinaldi-Radetzky

                And perhaps Rabbi Yonatan means ‘I saw him’, not in terms of actual witnessing, but in terms of ’seeing in his mind’, that there were indeed cases where a father sought to kill his son out of suspicion that he was a rebel. Such as Herod who had his sons executed (and also Saul who threw a spear at his son Jonathan, suspecting him of being an accomplice in David's supposed rebellion.

                From these extreme cases, Rabbi Jonathan learned that it is possible for a father to suspect his son to the point of being willing to kill him. Even though this is an extreme case of an "evil spirit terrorizing him," the Torah left room for the person's will to be implemented, provided that the mother and the court agree with him.

                It is said that Saul wanted to have his son executed; it should be said that the "remote city" was Neb, the city of the priest, which was completely destroyed because Saul suspected them of being partners in the conspiracy with David.

              3. Last paragraph, line 2
                … The distant city’ was Nob, the city of the priests that was destroyed…

              4. I don't understand you, Sh”el

                Are you really looking for evidence? Is David evidence of anything? No one in biblical times was kind. And with David we also saw that he had a tendency not to hurt his sons even when it was necessary (Amnon, Adoniah). The case of Absalom is indeed a classic case and it is very possible to assume that in such a situation there were parents who realized that their child had no hope (have you never seen horror movies about evil children whose parents feel sorry for them and who murder people? Apparently there is such a thing as children who are hopeless). I can testify to you that the worst people I have ever known were children (they excel especially in cruelty. Contrary to the image they have of adults. Around adults they make a cute face but they will eat each other) and everything I said is especially amplified in the ancient world which was especially cruel, and then there must have been children like that (and even with cruel or alternatively wise and responsible parents).

                Think that God should command the Israelites not to sacrifice their children as human sacrifices (as with the king of Edom and the people of Canaan). And that is ultimately what happened (and God accused them of being even more evil and detestable than the people of Canaan and the other peoples surrounding them, and even Sodom). See Ezekiel and Jeremiah. So, is a rebellious and misguided son considered something in your eyes?

    2. In the month of Tevet, in Shalom Rav,

      According to the Maharal (in the Chiddushei Agadot Sanhedrin a.a.), the rebellious and mischievous son that Rabbi Yonatan saw symbolizes the people of Israel who were punished for their rebellion, and the distant city symbolizes Jerusalem that was destroyed by the people's sin.

      Because Israel was called the "firstborn sons of Israel," and they were rebellious and mischievous and would not listen to the voice of the Holy One, and to their mother, the Knesset of Israel, and it was said of them, "We will remove him and he will not listen to them."

      And so the distant city was, in our sins, Jerusalem the Holy City, and judgment was made in it, the distant city, and it will not be built again until the Holy One Himself builds it.

      Rabbi Yonatan does not accept that there are commandments that will never be fulfilled in reality, but There are commandments that are carried out in the individual in human law, and there are commandments that are carried out in the people of Israel and in the laws of heaven, and as the Maharal (ibid.) says, “Rabbi Yonatan explained that there was no Torah passage written in which the commandment was not carried out in reality, and these two commandments were carried out in Israel.”

      Rabbi Yonatan, a disciple of Rabbi Yishmael, certainly did not see a wayward son and a teacher and a remote city that were judged in human law, since the laws of souls were abolished in Israel long before him, but he also saw the destruction and killing that came as a result of the suppression of the Bar Kokhba rebellion, following which Israel and its land were given over to plunder as a wayward son and as a remote city. He sits and laments over the graves of the sons and over the ruins of the city, but his lamentation is bound up with faith, that a wayward son and a remote city that his physical eyes see were – For the eyes of his spirit also see that they are ‘future to be’ to rise to life.

      With a bright Hanukkah blessing, Yaron Fish”l Corinaldi

      1. And simply put, it should be said that Rabbi Yonatan knew of cases in which the court heard the case of a rebellious son and a teacher and a remote city. Those who disagree with him also knew of these cases, but they believed that they were incorrectly heard in the court in the Summum and Ayah.

        Those who disagree with Rabbi Yonatan believe that in order to uphold the Summum, such special conditions are required, such as Rabbi Yehuda's requirement that both parents be "equal in voice, appearance, and stature," and therefore it is argued that what the court heard in that case in which they heard the Summum ruling was incorrect.

        Regarding the law of a remote city, we found a disagreement between Rabbi Yonatan and Rabbi Yosiah, with Rabbi Yonatan believing that the law of a remote city is only in a place where there are ten to a hundred people, which is a restriction that greatly narrows the law of a remote city, while Rabbi Yonatan believes that even more than a hundred people are considered a remote city until there is a majority of a tribe. Here too, we can say that there was a known case in which the rabbinate discussed the rabbinate's ‘law of a remote city’, but in Rabbi Yonatan's opinion there is no evidence for this, since there is no halacha like that rabbinate.

        Also for this explanation, it must be said that Rabbi Yonatan's words ‘I saw him’ are not as they seem, since the laws of souls were abolished long before he was born. Likewise, what he said ‘I sat on his grave’ are not as they seem, since Rabbi Yonatan was a priest. And it seems that what he meant was: ‘I knew the case and even its exact location’.

        Best regards, Yaron Fish”l Ordner

      2. On the 16th of Tevet 5

        Following the explanation of the Maharal (Chiddushei Agdot, Sanhedrin 7) that a rebellious and rebellious son symbolizes the people of Israel who fell by the sword, and a distant city symbolizes Jerusalem that was destroyed – It must be said that the image of the son condemned to his end is appropriate, since at that time the condition of the people of Israel was much better than during the days of the destruction of the First Temple, when they sinned in the name of ”Z and Sh”D, but they were condemned for gratuitous hatred in the name of the ”slippery slope” that in the end this obscene act could &#8216conjure up’ The Depravity of the First Temple..

        With blessings, Danny Schnitzel, Rabbi Radetzky

        The Mahar”l in Netzach Yisrael writes that the fact that the destruction came as a result of a halachic ruling by a halachic teacher, the humility of Rabbi Zechariah ben Evkols, teaches us that there was a divine signature on the sentence of destruction.

        I once said that the concerns of Rabbi Zechariah ben Evkols express the two great depravities of that generation. On one side stand the Christians who disregard the grammar of halachic law and are ready to allow ‘men with defects to the altar’. On the other side stand the extremist zealots, whose hand is light to pull the trigger’ And are ready to kill a person even for a sin that is not punishable by death.

        Without being aware that his ruling will lead to the destruction of the Temple – Rabbi Zechariah was right. A society that lives in an atmosphere where there are no proportions, and where it is possible without a justifiable reason to uproot the Halacha or take a human life – must first heal itself in order to be worthy of the inspiration of the Divine Presence.

  2. 1.:” This is a statement that aims to achieve deterrence and educational results, but there is no need or value in actually implementing it.”
    So whoever knows that there will be no actual implementation and boasts and tells others, then we have achieved the opposite result that there is no deterrence. Isn't it?
    2. I find it difficult why the Sages did not include the rebellious son and the teacher and the remote city with the rule of the law following the Bible..
    3. According to Josephus in his book Kadmonition, the Jews at his time would still gouge out an eye as the verse is explained. And it could be according to Ibn Ezra's interpretation that even before the Sages, and the tip of her paw - if she has no money. And the Sages only left the option to pay.

    1. 1. That is why I said both deterrence and education. Deterrence may not be achieved by those who know, but education is. When you see that this is the punishment that the Torah says should be imposed, you understand that it is a problematic act, even if for some side reason it is not actually imposed. Deterrence is achieved only if a person does not know that it is not applicable (to the people of the lands). And our rabbis have already said (ibid., ibid.): Only the people of the land are pious.
      2. Halacha follows/uproots a scripture, this is the LBM (see Rashi Sotah 16:1). When the midrash uproots/follows, this is a different discussion, and these cases (which are also not many. Like an eye for an eye, for example, or it will be read after the name of his dead brother) are not all included here.
      Although even if this were to include a midrash, it all depends on whether you are asking according to Rabbi Shimon or according to Rabbi Yehuda. According to Rabbi Yehuda, the halacha only interprets the scripture and does not uproot it. According to Rabbi Shimon, the law does not eliminate it, but only says that it is not applicable in practice.

  3. Indeed, it is appropriate for a column in the Ninth to discuss the issue of the Amalekite life, which is brought down and not raised, in the land of Egypt and the distant city 🙂

    With the blessing of the "shocked ones of Jerusalem",
    their throats will become a drain, and even the seekers of sins will be a burden.

  4. I will note that in column 293 the possibility was not raised that someone who violated the declarative rabbinic law of Varda would not be punished. This may seem insignificant, but I think it indicates a difference in perception.

  5. Why treat the biblical and the sage levels as one? Why not say that there was a movement, a development here. A transition from a world in which an eye for an eye or a disobedient son and a teacher is acceptable, to a sage world in which things are no longer acceptable and therefore receive refinement, abstraction, symbolism, and the like. And the same is true in other areas.

    1. It is certainly possible. This does not touch on the main point of my remarks. Ultimately, after a long process, we reach a situation where there are declaratory laws. Whether this was the case from the beginning or not is an unimportant historical question. At the end of my remarks, I also wrote to the Hadiya that there are laws that were applied in the past and that as time passed, there is reason to consider ceasing to apply them.

      1. ‘Unimportant historical question’??? Wonderful, my opinion. And it's just like ‘layers’ in studying Gemara. The process itself, the very awareness of it, its existence – all of these are fascinating and extremely important. Not to mention, often much more interesting than the bottom line – the final result (yes, in practice, yes or no)

        1. Whether it is the same or not is a matter of taste. What I wrote is that this is not the issue I am dealing with here. I am arguing that there are laws in Halacha that are not for practical application. That is all. What do I care right now whether it has developed over time or has always been that way? Even if it is very interesting, why does it concern the discussion at all? And why do you think I am mixing the Bible with the Sages. I am only concerned with the Sages, that is, with the halachic interpretation of the Bible.

    2. On the 2nd of Tevet 5771

      To her, "Peace be upon you, Rabbi,"

      One of Chazal's proofs of the impossibility of the law of a "disobedient and rebellious son" is the requirement, "And his father and mother shall seize him." Where will the mother be found who will forget the son of her womb and demand that he be put to death? It is not for nothing that the prophet brings "A woman shall forget the son of her womb" as an example of something that cannot happen.

      Regarding "an eye for an eye," the Torah allowed for the redemption of even the death penalty imposed on one who was negligent in observing the appointed time and by force caused the death of a person; Likewise, the Torah establishes the possibility of a ‘criminal punishment’ for someone who strikes a pregnant woman and causes the fetus to miscarry – then it is clear that in the event that there was only damage to a limb, there is room according to the Torah to redeem the corporal punishment with money. Only for a murderer in the hands did the Torah forbid taking a ransom.

      However, although the Bible contains descriptions of executions – there is not a single record in the Bible of the execution of a limb by judges from among the children of Israel (unlike the kings of the nations, among whom we found the cutting off of hands and feet or the gouging out of eyes). It therefore appears that the interpretation of the Sages was based on an ancient tradition that never recognized the use of the punishment of amputation of limbs.

      With regards, Yaron Fishel Ordner

      By the way, ‘an eye for an eye’ was only said about intentional harm, as the analogy with ’a soul for a soul’ proves (as Rabbi Eliezer says), and it is clear that ‘two or three witnesses’ were needed and conclusive proof that the harm was done intentionally, conditions that are very difficult to achieve, since someone who plots to kill or harm his fellow man – would be careful not to do so in front of ‘two or three witnesses’, and therefore corporal punishment is almost impossible to carry out, and therefore the courts from the days of Moses onwards always preferred to redeem the corporal punishment with financial compensation that would help the injured party to recover.

      1. In paragraph 1, line 1
        … ‘And his father seized him…

        In paragraph 2, line 2
        … And thus caused his death…

        And a note:
        In general society, among the nations of the world, in the time of Chazal, there was no problem, neither with cruel corporal punishments nor with the killing of a disobedient and disobedient son. The Gentiles carried out such punishments ‘for fun’, as a combination of justice with enjoyable entertainment for the audience – so there is no room to imagine a ‘moderating environmental influence’. The demand to have mercy in judgment is certainly the fruit of the spirit of the Torah and the prophets, and not the fruit of foreign influence.

        With greetings, Yafa”r

        1. On the 15th of Tevet 5, the right of the father of the family to sentence his disobedient son or family member to death was accepted in the ancient world. Thus Judah sentences his daughter-in-law to death for committing adultery, and thus Reuben, who tells his father, "You will kill my two sons if I do not bring them to you," assumes that Jacob, as the head of the family, can put his grandchildren to death for their father's crime.

          Dr. Isaac Kister (in his article: "Parents' Rights in Their Children, in Jewish Law and in the Laws of the Nations of the World," on the "Da'at" website) notes that among the ancient Greeks, Chinese, Germans, and Arabs, the father was permitted to kill his son/daughter even without guilt. In Rome, this right was preserved with restrictions – justified guilt of the son and approval of a ‘family council’ – until 365 CE!

          The Torah does not outright abolish this deep-rooted ‘parental right’, but it does introduce three substantial restrictions that make it inapplicable – prior notice is required ‘his father and mother have disowned him’; the mother's consent is required ‘and his father and mother have caught him’ (which is unlikely to happen), and after all, the parents are not authorized to issue a judgment but the &#8216elders of his city’. The parents are not the &#8217judges’, but only plaintiffs who need approval from the court.

          The Torah made a similar move in the case of the ’redeemer of blood’ who is required to go to the court, and is not permitted to ‘make a judgment for himself’ until the court approves it.

          With greetings, Aner Eshkol Fish”l-Werkheimer

          1. And even if the son is so bad that even his parents want him to die, because from this boy they have only disgrace and humiliation, the Torah requires them to say out loud: ‘Our son’ and take responsibility for him…

            At the time, Rabbi Lior Engelman wrote that at the moment when the parents are required to say about the disgrace of their lives: ‘Our son’ – something will crack in the wall of alienation and hatred. Who knows how long they haven't said a kind word to him, and suddenly they have to utter the forgotten words ‘Our son’ and remember…

            He remembers that he once saw them as his loving parents; they remember the days of happiness when this was their cute child. Perhaps at this stage, at the last moment, the forgotten love will awaken in them, and instead of sending them to the house of stoning – May the parents fall on their son's necks and embrace him… and together they will go home to a new life…

            With blessings, Akiva Yosef Halevi Radetzky

          2. In the 17th of Tevet 15

            To my words above (in response to – Din Bessem A Legal Revolution in the Ancient World’) that the innovation of the Torah in the Din Bessem is actually the reduction of the father's right to judge over his family members, since the innovation of the Torah is that the father needs the consent of the mother and the ‘elders of his city’ and is not permitted to be the ‘supreme judge’ of his family.

            In light of this insight, the context is very understandable. Parashat Bessem is the appropriate continuation of the parashat ‘Eshet Yefet Toar’ which greatly reduced the right of the captive in his captivity. Even the parshah ‘He shall not choose the beloved son over the hated son’ almost completely obscures the father's right to inherit his sons as he wishes.

            In the three parshahs, the father learns that he is not the all-powerful ruler over his family, but that he, his wife, and his sons are all subject to the Torah law that binds them all.

            With greetings, Yaron Fish”l Ordner

            1. And perhaps the son's rebellion comes from his feeling that his parents are dictators who are imposing restrictive orders on him.

              His correction comes when he sees that his parents, with all their justified anger at their rebellious son, must stand with him before the elders, and wait submissively and obediently for their verdict.

              Even the parents' admission, "This is our son," expresses their acceptance of responsibility for their son's bad behavior. The parents admit: "This is our son, and we also have a certain part in his deterioration."

              Returning to submission to the Torah and its teachers, both parents and son internalize that we all live in a binding framework, not ‘ruling and being ruled’, but people who are willing to listen to those older than them, who also gained their virtue by listening to those older than them.

              Instead of the house of stoning – the boy will return to the house of enlightenment…

              With blessings, Akiva Yosef Halevi Radetzky

              1. In paragraph 2, line 2
                … in submission and submission to the ruling…

  6. Suggestion of two forms in R’ Shimon (1 excessive punishment, 2 prediction that the parents will not bring).
    A. Assist form 1 from the language of demand and reward. I did not understand what the assistance is. Without demand and reward, one learns only in order to fulfill and there is no reason to reveal to us a law that will not be fulfilled.
    B. Assist form 2 from the language of R’ Shimon and that because of etc. his father and mother are taking him out to be stoned. According to option 1, there is no connection to his father and mother. It seems to be explicit.
    C. Assist form 2 from the language of R’ Shimon did not exist and will not exist. This means that he deals with assumptions about reality and not with Torah laws. According to option 1, a rebellious son is not killed, and only immediately.
    D. Form 3 in R’ Shimon is that it is unlikely that a meat-eater will die (or that the parents will bring him) and therefore requires that the conditions are the entire excessive package that the Gemara adds (Rambam Memariam 57). And in any case, it will not be. And the methods of the sermon tend to follow the explanation of what is possible or likely that the Gemara will say, as usual. You brought up this form later in the words (“There is of course a possibility of claiming” etc.) but I did not understand why it was casually waved.
    E. Assistance to the Rem”h who has a dispute. The baraita ‘There was and will not be, but a need and a reward’ certainly fits R’ Shimon, who explicitly said the same thing. Therefore, when the Gemara says that there is no problem with R’ Shimon, it is not intended *also* R’ Shimon, but (possibly) only R. Shimon. As for R. Yehuda, it is possible that he will be, and according to the words of the hand of Ramah.

    1. A. Because even if a certain law is not intended for observance, there is a point in studying it if it teaches us other things. If it is not true, then there is a difficulty as to why it was written at all.
      B. It could be for the glory of the meliitza. For such a minor offense that he does not deserve death, his father and mother who love him would put him to death?!
      C. As above, it could be for the glory of the meliitza. It cannot be and therefore has not been and will not be.
      D. Because on the surface it appears from the Gemara that there is a dispute here.
      E. Indeed. See section d.

      1. A. What are the other things it teaches us, and are they themselves practical or necessary and rewarded?
        D. I didn't understand. A dispute between R’ Shimon (who will not be) and R’ Yehuda (who may be)?
        F. Regarding the death penalty. After all, the sages did not put their hands in the dish and fixed, for example, the entrance to the dome. [In both this and Ben Sorer, I have a rather prosaic feeling that the matter does not concern what is appropriate and what is not, but to whom the decisions are made. As soon as it is possible to beat and kill in a way that is not lawful, then the obligatory law becomes simply an annoying restriction and people try to get rid of it. Of course, as usual, one can soften the fact that they perceived it as appropriate and therefore understood the Torah this way, etc. You could call it sage imperialism (and on their hands poured water, the holy pirate captain ad-hoc Mohra Barak Shalit)]

        1. A. Non-halakhic lessons.
          D. No. Dispute as to why it cannot be: because the conditions are difficult to meet or because it is not a reasonable punishment.

  7. In a lesson at the Yavneh Yeshiva, over 40 years ago, the Rosh Ha-Yashvi taught very similar things about a wayward son and a teacher.
    He added that the Torah teaches us about the theoretical possibility of the existence of a person so corrupt that he is beyond repair, and therefore condemned to his end. How far can this theory be realized? Probably not…

  8. I didn't understand. After all, there are cases mentioned in the Mishnah and Talmud about actual executions. A priest's daughter who was surrounded by ropes of yams and burned, Rabbi Shimon ben Shetach (both in My Heart for Witches and in My Regard who had his son executed based on false witnesses). How can you say that this never happened?

  9. On the 14th of Tevet 14th of A

    In the time of Chazal, there was generally no danger to life in a fire, because there were no multi-story buildings. The houses were one or two stories high, and by the time the fire spread, it was possible to escape.

    Discussions about the fire began mainly in the Middle Ages, when Jews were forced to live in crowded ghettos, where they were crammed, and also in places where the houses were made of wood, where fires spread with new speed. Nowadays, there is also a danger that the fire will reach places where there is high voltage, which then poses a great danger to life.

    With greetings, Zerchia Yosef Halevi Dvoretzky

    In the time of the sages, there was an effective way to prevent fires by using pitchers filled with water, which when they reached the water would extinguish the fire. This was a way that did not hold water, but rather “held water” 🙂

    1. In the Middle Ages, in some places there was a danger from the authorities, who would punish with death the house from which the destructive fire originated.

      Best regards, Zaid”h

      1. Line 1-2
        … They would punish with death the one whose house the fire started…

    2. 'ובסכנה מניחה על שולחנו' - אולי הכוונה על סכנת דליקה? says:

      On the 15th of Tevet

      In one of my responses to the column on the ‘Streimel policy’, I challenged Rashi to interpret ‘and the danger he places on his table and ink’, as referring to the danger of the firemen who forbade lighting a candle in a house of fire. After all, this danger only began in the days of the Amoraim ‘because my friend was with him in Babylon’, and it did not yet exist during the period of the Tanach.

      And I suggested that the ’danger’ that the Baraita is talking about is the danger of fire that exists in a crowded place. A danger that was intensified in the Middle Ages when most Jews were crammed into crowded neighborhoods and apparently still exists today in crowded housing estates, where any child running down the stairwell may encounter a burning menorah outside the front door.

      Best regards, Yaron Fishel Ordner

  10. The Torah explains: And you shall burn the evil one, from your near ones; and all Israel shall hear and fear.

    How can it be said that something that the Torah sees as evil is not evil?

    Are the Jews who died in the Holocaust and in wars and exiles not bloodshed? Why is it that Rashba”g does not count them?

    Maybe if they had observed the law of a rebellious son and a teacher, all kinds of leaders who led to disasters would not have come to power? I have not seen any reference to this issue.

    Putting a rebellious son and a teacher to death is not a punishment for him. He is already dead.

    There was no Sanhedrin that had the power to put people to death, and everything was based on the laws of fear to justify its actions.

    And this is how the law should be understood.

  11. Very interesting article, thank you very much.

    Regarding the issue of hell – if it is declarative then it loses all its deterrence, we finally know now that there is no reward. So how is deterrence conceptualized, maybe only for people who have not delved into it and have not yet thought about it?

    Why create unreasonable criteria in interpretation, and not simply say that this is a declarative law (and they teach that it is not)?

    And regarding laws that were implemented in the past in a different value system, and today they are ‘halachah and they teach that it is not’. Don't these examples constitute a difficulty for the eternity of the Torah? That is, is it unreasonable in our eyes that commandments from the ’ that are applicable are also supposed to be applicable throughout the generations?

    1. Here, you yourself don't know, so there is deterrence.

      Tactically, this is also not true because part of the deterrence is achieved by making it seem applicable. The Tzvi know that it is not. And also substantively, the sermons themselves are not created just like that. This is really evident from the verses (in the sermon tool). The Bible itself tells us in this way that the law is not applicable.

      Absolutely not. The prophecy has ceased, and so have the sacrifices. Does this mean that the law is not eternal? If there is a change, they will become applicable again.

      1. I actually understood from the Rabbi's words regarding hell that we have truly learned that it does not exist, and there is no deterrent for those who have learned. At least that is what I concluded from this distinction.

        Regarding the inapplicable sermons, are they all explained by the laws of the sermon? If so, was it obligatory to apply the laws of the sermon here, or did the sages choose to apply them here, and in other places chose not to even though they could?
        I saw that Prof. Moshe Halbertal, in his book, demonstrates how less reasonable interpretations were sometimes adopted for purely ethical reasons, without actually using the standards of the sermon, and some of the opinions in the discussion (in a rebellious and ill-mannered son, a remote city, a pervert, a girl who prostituted herself in her father's house, etc.).
        Could this be the explanation for some of the inapplicability of these laws?

        Regarding prophecy and sacrifices, it is the giver, and it is truly strange to me that such fundamental things in the Torah (maybe even most of the commandments? I didn't check..) are irrelevant to the life of a servant of God today, but I understand that there is no contradiction or nullification of the truths of the Torah here. Only a divine choice to be revealed in a way that greatly challenges the believers in the Torah from heaven after many generations... Perhaps the Rabbi can share his thoughts on this?

        1. The dimensions of the sermon are not mathematics, and part of the application is related to interpretation. Incidentally, this is true for any interpretation (which is composed of textual-literal considerations + interpretations). But it is clear that it must have a basis in the methods of the sermon.

  12. A question about the declarative hell.
    I will say that I too became a convert to this idea about 10 years ago and I too came to the simple conclusion that if God is good then there is no punishment in the hereafter because it has no purpose (except that I see no reason to resort to the narrow hypothesis that he is good). And simply that there should be no element of retribution in punishment, but only deterrence and prevention and emotional revenge that psychologically relieves the victim. But I think you have given me a categorical imperative, but you have given me a categorical imperative. I ask – Doesn't the categorical imperative entail that the punishment will be carried out? Maybe this will seem to you like a rant for Purim (or Tisha B'Av. I am writing seriously).

    And why. If I understand your consideration correctly regarding accepting a categorical imperative as morally binding, for example in the prisoner's dilemma (the categorical imperative obliges each of them not to inform on his comrade), it works like this: Obviously, we would be happy if there was a categorical imperative, therefore a wise and good legislator would enact a categorical imperative, therefore certainly the ’ who is a wise and good legislator took care to enact the categorical imperative. But it is not that you directly identify the categorical norm as a proper moral norm (as one identifies, for example, the norm “thou shalt not cause suffering”). And if so, in exactly the same way, we would also be happy if the ’ were obligated to actually punish. Because only then would there really be a real threat of punishment that would spur people (even wise ones) to avoid offenses. Therefore, the ’ would oblige itself and it is clear that it would carry it out. Although the specific action of punishing an anonymous person has no point, God would have wanted there to be a general law that requires punishing all anonymous people, and therefore there is such a law.
    My questions:
    A. Is it true that you accept the categorical imperative in morality because in your opinion there is a legislator with an opinion on morality (isn't he God?), and why not?
    B. (Not necessarily dependent on a positive answer to question A) Is it true that a categorical imperative requires God to punish in hell?

    1. B”D 13 B”Shvat P”A

      L”G –Shalom Rav,

      The reward in the real world is not external to the soul. Rather, it is a person's awareness of the true state of his soul. If a person discovers that his life has been wasted – the ’basa’ will be terrible’, and if he discovers that he has used his time properly – there will be great and eternal relief.

      With greetings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel”R

      1. And so our Rabbi Yonah writes, in his commentary on Avot 3:1:

        ‘And before whom will you be accountable… for how can a person sin if he thinks before whom he will be accountable… for he will be ashamed of great shame. Like a king who finds a person entering before him, if he finds him deceitful in his actions or lying in his words – is that not a great shame? How much more so before the King of kings, the Holy One”}2.

        Also, because when the soul is ashamed after separating from the body – that shame is greater than the shame while it is still there, because the nature of the body forgetsࢶ because the nature of forgetfulness in the body is mixed with the nature of the soul and because it cannot overcome it to forget the matter completely – nevertheless, the matter will overcome it when it grows old, which is a little forgetfulness that removes most of the shame.

        But when the soul is alone, there is no forgetfulness before it, because it is all pure and created and there is no nature from the rains within it, and when it is ashamed, and when it is ashamed before the King of kings, the Holy One, forever and ever, it will stand in shame as at that time it stood before Him, and like that time, it will stand ashamed forever.

        This means: the consciousness in the world will be true without the possibility of denial, suppression or dulling of the feeling of shame, and this is a very difficult feeling. And this is what the Rabbi writes in several places, that their hell is the absence of the flock. How difficult it must be for a proud and honorable person to suddenly “drop the coin” and discover that all the air has gone out of his balloon.

        And of course, in a very good way, how happy and contented a person will be to discover how much contentment his good deeds have brought to his Creator. May we be blessed to walk in the paths of righteousness and enjoy the Tula of Deginta.

        With blessings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel

    2. This really seems like a gibberish. I don't think that God is supposed to be subject to the categorical imperative, if only because everything He does is a general law. Humans are supposed to examine their actions by asking whether it is appropriate for all humans to do so. But God is not in the game of humans (He is supposed to ask whether all divine beings are supposed to act this way). As such, we would not expect a king to act like any other human. He has a unique role compared to other people and therefore should not be treated as equals and with identical expectations.
      But even if we apply the categorical imperative to him, perhaps the general law is that such promises (the implementation of which is not obvious and has no point) should be made in the air and not kept.
      As I wrote above, the threat of punishment (when it is not clear that it will not be fulfilled) is enough to achieve the effect. Therefore, the categorical imperative does not require anything more than that.
      A. I accept the validity of morality by the power of God, but the content of morality stems from the very definition of morality as good. It is difficult to treat this as legislation in itself.
      B. See above.

      1. Although there is an answer from the above, I will ask you in a more pointed way. The categorical imperative in the prisoner's dilemma – without it there is a paradoxical predicament, and the imperative solves this problem. The question is whether you directly recognize that the imperative is binding, and as a side effect notice how beautifully the predicament is resolved. Or is the predicament itself the reason for thinking that the categorical imperative is probably binding (because the legislator of obligations is not stupid). I call the second possibility ‘the imperative as closed’.

  13. You are making a distinction that is too narrow. As I explained with regard to pragmatism, there is also an intermediate option: the fact that there is a predicament is an indication that the categorical imperative is true. And, to be sure, it is not that I adopt it without justification just because of the predicament, but that the predicament is the indication that it is true (and not just that it is necessary).
    In other words: I directly recognize that it is obligatory, and the ”what beauty” of the solution to the predicament is further reinforcement of this recognition.

    1. For the purposes of what I'm trying to say, there is no difference between a cause and an indication, because in both situations, distress goes hand in hand with a categorical imperative. But you say here that you directly identify and the resolution of distress is just another confirmation, and this is something that I really didn't think about (and I still need to think about it).

      And what about hell, is there no distress there at all (the distress is God's, unfortunately He cannot threaten punishment because no one will believe Him that He will indeed punish, and therefore people may commit offenses) because in practice people fear the possibility that He will punish or they didn't think about the argument, or is there and there is distress but because there is no direct identification of an obligation to punish, then distress alone has no substance.

      I understand from your words that both: neither is there such great distress (because in practice people fear) nor is distress alone has no substance. Did I conclude correctly?

        1. Thanks. Actually, I want to find out a little more. I'm splitting it into sections even though they're not really separate so that it's clear what the answer is.
          A. It's universally agreed that categorical imperatives are an important and worthwhile thing, and if it were possible to choose whether there would be such imperatives or not - everyone would choose that there would be. For example, in the examples you gave in voting for elections or in opposition to Stalin or in the prisoner's dilemma. But whoever thinks that there is no such imperative simply thinks (unfortunately) that there is no such imperative. Therefore, if there is a third party who controls globally, then he should enact laws and impose sanctions based on categorical imperatives. Right?
          B. Why is distress not a sufficient reason/indication even without direct identification? If there is a legislator who is knowledgeable about principles, then why wouldn't he enact such a principle to get rid of distress? Or why would he leave a system that has holes in it that he could easily plug? If you say that hardship is not a sufficient indication, I understand from this that no one with common sense can enact binding laws.
          [C. And why am I concerned about this, because I do not ‘directly’ identify the categorical imperative as something you are referring to, but I do understand that it is a very effective valve for hardships. Therefore, if I come to the conclusion that morality is somehow related to God (I find it difficult to accept your method on the matter) and that it is up to Him to decide what morality will contain (I am also undecided on this), then I will definitely accept that categorical imperatives are binding.]

          1. I don't understand the length of the discussion.
            A. Completely agreed. But if the legislator imposes such an order, then there is such an order.
            B. As above. Indeed, the distress is an indication that a wise legislator would enact such a law and therefore there is such a law and it is valid.
            C. In light of what I commented on the two previous sections, I don't understand what is written here.

            1. One last time, one last time and enough (Final_File_1.docx, where I swore).

              So if we assume that he does have a problem with the problem that he cannot impose punishments (in another world where all people think that this consideration is correct and there is no reason to punish), will he, as a wise legislator, enact for himself an obligation to obey the order that forces him to punish, and therefore punish. The people will understand that this is how he should have legislated for himself, therefore he probably legislated for himself, and therefore they will refrain from transgressions. When they reach the next world, he will punish them, and not because there is any benefit in it, but because that is how the order he legislated for himself is. (The general order solves a problem, but its concrete implementation in an individual person or in an individual act does not solve any problem, and such implementation is always done “for its own sake”).

              1. On the 15th of Shvat,

                Let's go, Shalom Rav,

                Indeed, God is in distress because the punishment for sin is not an external punishment, but a reality in which the soul stands in shame, looking with the gaze of truth at what it has damaged and spoiled, and in the world of truth there is only truth.

                But God is good and just, therefore He sends sins on the way. The quality of honesty does not allow one to give up on the truth, but the quality of goodness brings about the possibility of correcting sin through repentance, recognizing the sin, regretting it, and accepting it for the future. Then repentance is useful in turning wrongdoings into mistakes, and if it is a "repentance from a lover," the wrongdoings will be transformed into rights.

                And even when there was no answer, the torments of body and soul that a person goes through in this world and in the hereafter join in to cleanse the soul so that it is not rejected by the rejected, but it is infinitely better that the correction come through the inner initiative of the person himself, so that he may enjoy the unblemished grain.

                With greetings, Aisha

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