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On Education, Faith, Wisdom, and an Agenda (Column 328)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

I have just read an article by Avigdor Feldman about Prof. Ruth Gavison, of blessed memory, who passed away yesterday.

I found myself agreeing with almost all of her moves and positions that were disparaged in his piece.

I think what is most remembered about her is Aharon Barak’s remark rejecting her candidacy to the Supreme Court on the grounds that she had an agenda.[1]

I dedicate this column to her memory, and at the end I will try to examine the question of an agenda from another angle.

Several times in the past (I think the last time was here) I was asked about the meaning of findings from various surveys showing that people with higher education and/or higher intelligence tend to believe in God less, or to hold left-wing positions. I was asked what that means, and whether it carries real weight.

Of course one can deny the facts themselves. For example, one can question the reliability of such surveys due to lack of professionalism or due to bias and agenda (a very common phenomenon in surveys of this kind). One can also question the criteria by which levels of education (although here it is a bit more clear-cut) and intelligence (which is indeed an elusive, culture-dependent concept) were determined. Sometimes these two claims point to related issues (in many cases the agenda drives a biased definition of the criteria). But here I wish to touch on the question of whether this is even a relevant argument. That is, even if we accept, at least for the sake of discussion, that these findings are correct—what does that say? Is this a relevant claim against faith (or against right-wing positions)?

The Connection to Peer Disagreement

In Columns 247–248 I dealt with questions adjacent to this one. There I spoke about situations of disagreement between peers (peer disagreement), and the question was: why assume that I am right and not my colleague who disputes me? I tried there to offer different arguments that explain why I should go with the position that seems right to me and give it priority despite the parity. It’s important to understand that the discussion here is different. There the assumption was that the disputants are evenly matched, whereas here the claim is that my opponent is superior to me, or at least that there is a majority superior to me (wiser than I am). Beyond that, there I am one of the sides in the debate, whereas here I am looking at a dispute between people and groups from a “UN vantage point” and asking myself how I should form my own position in light of this picture. So although there is some connection, these are different questions.

Ad Hominem

I think I once told here about a book I began writing many years ago with two friends, whose aim was to improve discourse, weed out fallacies, and the like. At some point we gave up, among other things because we went through the list of “fallacies” that appears at the start of every logic book and saw that many of them are not really fallacies. For example, the so-called “ad hominem” fallacy (addressing the person rather than the issue) is not necessarily a fallacy. Sometimes an argument that refers to the person and not to the content is on point. Thus, for example, when I say that Einstein believed in God (or did not believe), that carries some weight. It is not decisive weight, of course, since even a wise person like Einstein can err (and indeed he made use of that capacity more than once), and it’s also not clear whether scientific intelligence is the relevant kind for the question of belief in God (in my view, to some extent, yes). Still, such a statement has weight. Support from a wise person does mean something.

In logic textbooks, such arguments are presented as fallacies mainly because logic concerns itself with the validity of arguments (necessary entailment of the conclusion from the premises), and in arguments of this sort there is of course no necessary entailment of the conclusion. The fact that Einstein believed (or did not) in God is not enough to prove His existence, and so at the logical level it is not surprising that this is considered a fallacy. But at the level of common sense it is not necessarily a fallacy. True, one cannot infer from this a necessary conclusion that God exists, but do you really think Einstein’s stance gives no support, however slight, to that conclusion? If so, at least at the level of common sense such an argument appears to carry weight. So it is with many other so-called fallacies.

Is the Majority Right?

I touched on similar questions in several columns in the past. For example, in Column 69 I presented a model according to which, if we focus on the top of the wisdom/education ladder, it is precisely the minority that is right, whereas in the lower part the minority is wrong. At the end of the column I later added a correct note I received from Arik that greatly qualifies that conclusion (though it too rests on assumptions worthy of discussion).

I won’t repeat that here; I’ll only say that we still need to examine the top percentile of the public, and perhaps it is precisely the distribution there that serves as an indication (and not the distribution in the top decile or quintile). Perhaps only if that distribution holds consistently as we climb all the way up the ladder does it carry weight. See more on this in the discussion of deGrasse’s video at the end of the column.

Social Pressure

Beyond that, what about all the generations of the past? After all, the finest sages across all generations (not only Jews, of course) did believe in God (and sometimes believed in other nonsense as well). Why not include them in our equation? You will surely say that back then everyone believed because it was the fashion or the default assumption. One can reply that to the same extent, at least in certain societies today (mainly in the upper echelons of academic education), the fashion and bon ton are not to believe in God. Part of this is a reaction to religious persecutions of free thinkers, which created a sense that those with free thought are obliged to oppose religiosity and be atheists. In many cases atheism reveals itself as a kind of religion. Therefore there are groups where even if someone believes in God he cannot say so loudly (so too with right-wing politics, although in recent years the situation has improved in both contexts). It is interesting to note that even today, in more traditional societies (such as Muslim societies), most sages still believe in God and do not leave those groups. Is that good evidence? I do not see a significant difference between such a society and a typical academic one. In both there are articles of faith that it is hard for members of these societies to deny.

It is important to stress that I do not mean to claim that such people necessarily lie out of fear or anxiety (though I assume that too exists at times), but rather that sometimes they do not allow themselves to examine the question straightforwardly and to form an independent position—“the heart does not reveal to the mouth.” Just as a person raised in a religious education often cannot allow himself to raise—even inwardly—doubts or positions that run against his environment, let alone present them outwardly, so too for one raised in a secular society. The pressure there is not necessarily less than in religious society. And certainly that is the case in not a few academic cultures. In academia you may pay a professional and economic price for holding such positions, since your colleagues’ esteem for you may plummet if it turns out you are one of those “primitives” who believe in God (or in right-wing politics). In such a situation, at least subconsciously, your advancement can stall and your chances of being accepted and certainly of progressing professionally can drop dramatically.

Incidentally, this phenomenon is also known in halakhah. In capital cases one begins with the youngest judge; that is, the younger and less seasoned judge states his opinion first, so that he not be tempted to adopt the views of his more senior colleagues. So too when counting halakhic positions or following the majority: we do not count derivative elements. For example, when checking a reading in one of the biblical books, or in a Talmudic manuscript, even if we follow the majority (the halakhic rule), manuscripts copied from one another are not counted separately. In a court, the student’s opinion is not counted together with his teacher’s. Thus, if there is a dominant person in a certain academic field, his influence may be quite large, and it is therefore not correct to count those who adopt his position independently of him. The question of how the majority described here was formed is very relevant to our discussion.[2]

On Wisdom and Education

An important question for our discussion is whether education is indeed a good measure of wisdom. In discussions about faith there are arguments for which education does add value (for example, knowledge in evolution and physics), but in many cases (in my opinion, ultimately, in all cases) education as such does not add value in these debates, and the important parameter is wisdom (not education). That is, even if we accept the assumption that a wise person reaches more correct conclusions, it is still not clear that someone more educated is therefore wiser. I am not even sure there is a significant positive correlation between these two variables.

But even the assumption that a wise person (not necessarily educated) indeed reaches more correct conclusions is not so simple. As is known, there are foolish stupidities one can hear only from wise people. A wise person can play with the logic and rhetoric of arguments and reach almost any conclusion. Again, I do not mean a deliberate plot. He himself is convinced by this nonsense, since after all he has good arguments that support it. Incidentally, here education sometimes has negative added value. An educated person is willing to consider positions that at first glance seem odd (he is not captive to common sense), and not for nothing many of them arrive at the postmodern conclusion that consistency is everything. If some thesis is consistent, then for them it stands all tests and is equivalent to any other thesis. With consistency as the yardstick, one can justify almost any position. Hence you will hear strange arguments that lead to preposterous conclusions, and people say them with deep inner conviction, since their logic stands the test of consistency. Only common sense teaches that these are absurdities. But educated and wise people often tend to disdain common sense and intuitions. For them, science decides.

Incidentally, reliance on science sometimes leads to the worst nonsense, since science gives people a pretext to say baseless things and support them with scientific findings or with men of science (ad hominem, did I say?). In my books I brought quite a few such examples, and here, for example, you can see a particularly prominent one from recent times. In parentheses I will say that in my judgment both especially clever arguments and especially foolish ones are said mainly by clever people (particularly if they are educated). A simple person can of course err, but generally he will not say very foolish things. Sheer foolishness is a privilege reserved mainly for the clever, and if we are dealing with educated people then it may be that they will say great foolishness even if they are not wise.

A Systematic Way to Form a Position: A Further Look at “Ad Hominem”

Let us now assume for the sake of discussion that all the arguments I have raised so far are incorrect. Let us further assume that we have truly found that most wise and educated people are not believers, and let us also assume that the chance that they are right is greater than the chance that they are wrong. Even under all these assumptions, must I necessarily adopt the conclusion that there is no God? In my view, the answer is no.

At most, this is one consideration among several that I should take into account when forming my own position. If we suppose that I have arguments that seem to me very good in favor of God’s existence, the fact that most wise/educated people think otherwise does not necessarily change my stance. First, because as I showed in Columns 247–248 there are good reasons to go with what I myself think (for example, in situations where, in my assessment, there are arguments many of the dissenters have not encountered or have not considered seriously enough). Beyond that, not only is this consideration just one among several—it is no less important that it is not a consideration that goes to the heart of the matter.

Take for example the common claim that because of Occam’s razor we should adopt a theory due to its simplicity. Seemingly, by that we should adopt Newtonian mechanics and not quantum and relativistic theories, which are far more complex. So what is the problem here? Simply, the Newtonian theory does not answer several difficulties and does not fit certain observational facts. The razor is a criterion I use to decide between theories that have, in my eyes, the same probability and that have all resolved the difficulties and fit all the relevant facts. When I am in such a situation, the razor tells me to adopt the simplest of them. But if one theory is more correct, plausible, or convincing than its competitor, then I must choose it even if it is more complex.

So too here: the consideration of the majority view, or the view of most sages, can come at most after I have weighed the arguments on the merits. If I remain in doubt, more or less evenly balanced between a few options, X or Y, then—and only then—there may be room to consider the criterion that most sages hold X. But if X is much more plausible to me than Y, there is no reason to adopt Y because of that majority. Here I can bring my favorite story, attributed (how not?!) to R. Yonatan Eybeschütz. One day the priest came to him and asked why Jews do not convert to Christianity—after all, the Christians are the majority and the Torah says “follow the majority.” R. Yonatan replied that the rule to follow the majority applies to cases of doubt. But if I have no doubt, why should I follow the majority?! Consider a case where you find a piece of meat lying in the street, wrapped and sealed with a kosher plomba. Most shops in the area sell non-kosher meat. Is this piece kosher or not? According to halakhah, when one finds a piece of meat in the market its status is determined by the majority of shops in the relevant area. But in our case it is clear we will treat the meat as kosher, since it bears a closed kosher seal. The rule to follow the majority applies only to cases where we are in doubt and know nothing about the piece. In such a case we follow the local majority of shops. But if we know, we are not in doubt, and then there is no reason to follow the majority. So too here: if I have good arguments in favor of belief in God, I do not see why I should invoke the rule of following the majority. All the more so when even among the sages it is only a majority, not unanimity. When I have good arguments for X, I do not choose Y because of the majority.

In a different formulation, taken from R. Shimon Shkop’s explanation of the rule that we do not follow the majority in monetary law (see Columns 226 and 237): R. Shkop explains that this rule applies to situations where the claim that I belong to the minority is entirely reasonable. For example, there is a person in a closed room and I do not see him. My friend tells me it is unlikely that this person’s height exceeds 1.90 m, since the overwhelming majority of the population is shorter. But the person calls out to me from the room that his height is 1.95 m. Is it correct to dismiss his words as unlikely because they run against the majority? That would be nonsense. It is obvious to all that there are tall people in the world. If that person tells me he belongs to that minority, why should I doubt him?! The majority rule is relevant only to situations where I have no further information about the options. But when I do have additional information, it is not necessarily right to follow the majority. So too here: I have good arguments in favor of belief in God—why should I dismiss them because of the majority? Formally, in such a case the prior probability that the majority is right should be multiplied by the prior probability that my good arguments are wrong. Is the probability given by that product greater than 50%? That depends, of course, on the quality of my arguments (and also on whether the majority of sages who reached a different conclusion from mine have seriously considered them. If in my assessment the arguments are good, then the very fact that they reached a different conclusion is itself some indication that they have not).

You can see that what I have described here is merely a certain, more cautious version of an “ad hominem”-type fallacy, that is, reliance on the person (and not on the argument on its merits). Arguments that lean on decisions by virtue of technical considerations, like following the majority, generally express helplessness. One who lacks substantive arguments (especially if there are good arguments against him) pulls out of the hat the technocratic rabbit, i.e., various versions of ad hominem. Ironically, atheists are accustomed to accusing believers of reliance on authoritative figures (rabbis, tradition), yet at the same time they themselves often use ad hominem arguments when they rely on the majority of sages/educated people, and the like. But this is forgivable, since their arguments on the merits are indeed rather weak, and therefore they have little choice. The problem is that not a few believers (some of whom raise these questions here on the site) find themselves embarrassed by these arguments. My words in this column are directed to them.

Critical Viewing

In the thread I linked at the beginning of the column there is a video in which a pleasant fellow named Neil deGrasse Tyson presents the claim about atheism among most educated and wise people. The video is translated courtesy of some atheist institute, as part of their characteristic ad hominem effort. I can imagine that such a video may embarrass quite a few believing viewers (like the questioner in that thread). So, as a dessert, I invite you to join me in critically watching this video.

  • DeGrasse begins by noting that 90% of U.S. residents report themselves as religious. He precedes this with a fairly strict definition of that label (people who pray to a God involved in their lives). That is quite a stunning figure, especially compared with the (somewhat mistaken) image many of us have of the U.S. as the land of freedom and permissiveness. No wonder the atheists there are in distress and resort to fancy ad hominem arguments (“most wise/educated people are atheists”).
  • Next he presents statistics about holders of a PhD. I already addressed the connection between education and wisdom. Moreover, a doctorate is a guarantee of education in a very specific field, which further clouds the connection between a PhD and general education. DeGrasse, of course, does not spare us the remark that there are those without a PhD who nevertheless claim to be educated, though they are not. Behold a cheap piece of “scientific” demagoguery. Relying on degrees as a formal measure of education has some logic to it—if only because it is hard to propose other metrics—but I would not build too tall a structure on it. If I were to ask how many books—non-fiction outside your field, or literature—you read in a year, that would be a much better measure in my view. And still, among those with a PhD, 60% are religious even by his strict definition.
  • At this point he also claims that a doctorate is a good metric because it represents the capacity for independent thought. I think he is quite mistaken here, with a mistake typical precisely of those who do not hold a doctorate. In my view, the connection between a PhD and free thought is rather weak—sometimes even inverse. To get ahead, certainly in fields that are not exact sciences (but also in those), you need a good measure of conformity. Try publishing a paper that denies a core dogma in some scientific field and see what obstacles are placed in your path (consider the case of Dan Shechtman, Nobel laureate in Chemistry from the Technion, and the opposition he faced regarding the structure of a fivefold quasicrystal, among many similar examples).
  • But beyond this question, even if we assume that population indeed possesses independent thought, does independent thought necessarily yield a more correct answer? I am not sure, and in any case it seems reasonable that not in every field. There is something in accumulated wisdom, and a tendency to jettison it can even lower your chances of being right. I indeed oppose conservatism (see Columns 249 and 263), but also anti-conservatism. I favor substantive thinking, examining everything on its merits. One might argue that this is itself independent thinking, but then I do not accept the assumption that academics are indeed such independent thinkers. Free thinkers have a drive to say something new (if they are academics, that is how they make a living). Does that drive not lead away from truth? You can see, for example, in archaeology and biblical studies how, every so often, papers and claims appear with some silly sensation or other—some at the level of a wedding-speech witticism. The more extreme and bold you are, the more prominent your headlines in the popular press, of course. Only then can you publish a paper (and afterwards, of course, there will be another paper by someone else who finds the error in the previous one). In short, it is doubtful to what extent we should ascribe free thought to academics—and even if so, free thought is not a sufficient guarantee of correct results. I would say it is perhaps a (nearly) necessary condition, but certainly not sufficient—and sometimes it even interferes.
  • The next stage of DeGrasse’s talk concerns the percentage of believers among scientists (I presume he means mathematics and the natural sciences). Here the result is 40%. He adds that among mathematicians and engineers the number is 60%, and among biologists and physicists 20%, so the average is 40%. That in itself already says something. Why should your scientific field affect your religious worldview? Assuming there is no difference in talent between a mathematician and a physicist, it is very interesting that the mathematicians are together with PhD holders in general (where most are religious even by DeGrasse’s strict definition!!), and the physicists and biologists are far below. Is it not more reasonable to interpret that one’s field dictates certain modes of thinking that are unrelated to education and scientific skill? To a simple believer like me, that is at least a possible interpretation, and in a straight discussion it is definitely worth considering.
  • The next stage of the talk concerns the percentage of believers among senior scientists (those appointed to the National Academy of Sciences). Here the percentage is 7%. I ask myself: are these people more broadly educated or do they possess higher intelligence? In his remarks DeGrasse does not distinguish between these two, but in my preface I showed that this distinction is very important for the discussion. Even if we accept that a PhD indicates broader education, membership in the Academy may indicate intelligence but not necessarily broader education. So what is the relevant parameter that accompanies the entire axis DeGrasse sketches for us? He slips, insidiously, between the two axes—either because he does not notice, or because he mistakenly identifies them. In addition, I rather doubt his claim itself. True, there is a correlation between being elected to the Academy and scientific achievements and abilities, but I would not accept that connection across the board.
  • DeGrasse himself honestly raises here the claim that there may be bias (against believers) in appointments to these institutions, but counters that bias could only mean that someone worthy is not appointed; those who were appointed are undoubtedly of indisputable scientific achievement. This asymmetry is taken by him as a rebuttal that neutralizes counter-arguments, but in truth this learned distinction, even if correct, has no logical significance in our discussion. To see this, let us assume, for the sake of discussion, that all those appointed indeed have exceptional achievements, but there is bias that prevents the appointment of believers who have similar achievements. Would such asymmetry not show that the share of believers there does not accurately represent the true share of believers among senior scientists in general? Why should this asymmetry undermine objections to his claims?

Incidentally, does the same bias he tacitly acknowledges regarding the Academy not exist in academic appointments in general? For some reason he does not resort to that argument there at all.

  • Further on he notes that the headline of the article reporting this survey in the prestigious journal Nature was: 93% of senior scientists deny the existence of God. He argues that the more interesting headline should have been: 7% do not deny His existence (even though that is so absurd). At this point, the veneer of substantive discussion is stripped away at once, and the fellow moves from the façade of substantive, quantitative arguments (merely apparent, as we have seen) to open propaganda on the table.
  • In the propagandistic finale of the video he asks: how can it be? How can people with indisputable scientific achievements believe in God? (I would add another difficulty: how is it that those seven percent do not understand his argument—that is, are not impressed by the fact that most of their equally smart colleagues do not believe in God). Fear not: he has a persuasive explanation for this fascinating phenomenon. In the future they will probably discover a brain structure or a gene responsible for that strange feeling (=faith), and thus, instead of arguing, we will learn something new and interesting about our brain.

For some reason he does not consider the possibility that they will discover a different brain structure or gene among the 93% who do not believe in God that is responsible for their atheism (and thus we will learn something no less new about the brain). I will add that because, in my opinion, the arguments for the existence of God are very good, I would look for the relevant brain structure or gene precisely among those 93% and not among their colleagues—otherwise it is hard to understand their ignoring good arguments. Here we return to the questions of whether the majority decides, what the majority means, and whether the existence of a majority replaces arguments and substantive discussion.

  • Finally we come to the cherry on top. DeGrasse concludes by stating that among philosophers only one percent (!!) believe in God. Seemingly this datum truly calls for interpretation. But before we interpret it I would ask: whom exactly does he define as a philosopher? I assume he did not count the ramim (lecturers) in faith at Har HaMor, the mashgichim of the yeshivot, Chabad mashpi’im, etc. Why are all these not philosophers? And I have not even spoken about the failure to distinguish between professors of philosophy (academics) and philosophers (most of whom are not academics—check whose thought the philosophy departments actually research). And of course I have not addressed how he filters out all the purveyors of worthless rubbish in philosophy departments across the universe.

But above all, I ask again: what follows from this datum? Why indeed are philosophers so exceptional in holding the pure, unalloyed truth? Seemingly, by his claim they are at the peak of the monotonic axis he describes. By his lights it follows that philosophers (even without filtering out all the rubbish) are the discipline of the wisest people in the universe, even more than the scientists who are Academy members, and therefore they arrive at the truth at such a high rate. I very much doubt such a claim would withstand tests of measured intelligence against mathematicians or physicists. I would add that this does not seem correct to me in light of my acquaintance with the dramatis personae in these fields. Another option is to acknowledge what I argued earlier—namely, that in the data he brings one can clearly see the influence of discipline and environment on our modes of thinking and theological conclusions. That, of course, places a big question mark (caution: understatement!!) on the significance of the entire video.

I would also add the phenomenon I described above: that there are kinds of nonsense that can emerge only from the bellies of intellectuals. People accustomed to testing hypothetical possibilities by the tools of consistency without regard to common sense will indeed tend to adopt odd conclusions just because they seem interesting and consistent. In my view, that—and not intelligence—is what most characterizes philosophers as opposed to scientists. Now go and see what this datum means for the discussion about belief in God.

Asymmetric Thinking About Religious Faith

I will conclude with this: people (religious and not) tend to ascribe ulterior motives to religious faith, or at least to seek such motives, while lack of faith is always perceived as a balanced and rational conclusion. Thus, for example, many people are troubled by the question of whether faith is the product of religious upbringing, environment, and home, and they even adduce in support the correlation between being raised in a religious home and living with a religious worldview. But for some reason only a few are troubled by the question of whether lack of faith is the product of non-religious upbringing, environment, and home—a question supported, of course, by strikingly similar statistics. I discussed this in Column 294 and also in Columns 265 and 36.

As in what we saw there, so too in DeGrasse’s words we see a search for genes responsible for faith—but for some reason there is no search in him for genes responsible for lack of faith. Are not these very searches and difficulties themselves cognitive biases? He does not even put on the table the premise that faith is unreasonable; he simply assumes it as obvious, and then looks for what could explain how intelligent people hold such odd positions. What worries me is that in most cases we are not dealing with intentional demagoguery but with an innocent mistake. Many people are not even aware that they are biased, and they present these arguments as if they were crushing arguments against religious faith, whereas they apply in similar fashion against atheism.

DeGrasse presents data telling us that most PhD holders believe in God, and that this is likewise the case among engineers and mathematicians. But he chooses to focus on physicists and biologists, because it is more convenient. For some reason the viewer leaves with the impression that the findings portray faith as a foolish matter stemming from lack of education: the believer is uneducated, the educated does not believe.

It seems to me that DeGrasse—who, as far as I have seen, is himself a scientist of respectable achievements—in this talk gives us a paradigmatic example of free, agenda-less thinking (without an agenda—apropos Ruth Gavison, of blessed memory) by men of science. I think that if you read my words here carefully you will see that his lecture refutes itself.

[1] Incidentally, this is indeed a common quotation, but it is tendentious and imprecise (there is an agenda at its base), and this is not the place to elaborate.

[2] If you examine speeches by important people at various conferences, you will see that they allow themselves to speak more nonsense than ordinary people. A Supreme Court justice or a minister allows himself to utter valueless clichés and baseless nonsense, to tell stories about his grandmother or about the taxi driver who drove him—something no one else could allow himself. Such a person is invited to speak because of who he is and not because he has something to say. Usually you will not find any novelty in their tedious words, which does not prevent every self-respecting forum from continuing to invite them again and again. Ordinary people who speak at such conferences must say sensible things to receive a platform and attentive ears. Status in the academic world is quite defined (they spend no small amount of time ranking people and achievements), and one’s influence on colleagues is indeed a function of that status. Again, this is quite similar to what happens in religious society (there too important rabbis generally say tedious things and introduce no novelty. Novelties you will mostly hear from rank-and-file avrechim).

Keep this rule of thumb: if you are planning to attend a conference featuring some important person—a Supreme Court justice, a famous rabbi, a minister, a president, a prime minister, or even a very senior academic—it is worth arriving only after he has finished speaking (unless you are among the celebrity-worshippers who come merely to watch the movement of their lips and admire their handsome appearance). Tried and tested.

72 תגובות

  1. How fun to have you in the world.
    When will you write to us about the storm the Jews are facing legally, religiously, morally and intellectually?

  2. Why is Einstein's "authority" argument for belief in God just "common sense"?
    It is also a valid logical argument, as follows:
    Premise A: It is highly likely that a talented person like Einstein is not wrong
    Premise B: Einstein believed in God
    Conclusion: It is highly likely that there is a God

    1. All common sense arguments can be translated into a logical argument if you add the common sense premise as a premise to the argument. This is how you can turn an analogy into a deduction: Frog A is green. B is also a frog. All frogs are the same color. Conclusion: B is also green.
      But this is also how you can turn a failed argument into a valid deduction. For example: The lamp above me is on now. Whenever the lamp is on, it is winter. Conclusion: It is winter now.

      1. I did not add the common sense assumption to the argument. Assumption A (which Einstein is unlikely to be wrong) is true both a priori and empirically: genius helps to aim for the truth, and we see that geniuses aim for the truth more than ordinary people.
        I did not understand the two examples you gave. In the frog argument, the first assumption speaks only about frog A, and not about every frog, so the whole argument falls apart. In the menorah argument, the second assumption is not true, and therefore the argument remains flawed.

        1. You definitely added it. An assumption follows from common sense and after you added it the argument becomes valid. I didn't say it was unreasonable, just that it follows from common sense.
          Regarding the frog argument, read it again.

          1. I can't figure out which of my assumptions stems from common sense. I'd be happy if you could elaborate. (The assumption that geniuses make fewer mistakes – I've already written that it's true a priori and empirically).
            Regarding the frog argument, if we added the sentence “All frogs are the same color” then from the start it's a deduction and not an analogy, and what does it matter what the argument is called, after all, if the conclusion stems from the assumptions, the argument is valid, and if not, it's not valid.

              1. One more question, please: Don't you think that genius is supposed to help you reach the truth? Don't you see around you (and in yourself) that geniuses are more focused on the truth than other people?

              2. So which of the assumptions in the argument stems only from common sense? After all, all of the assumptions have been empirically proven (that geniuses are less likely to make mistakes, that Einstein was a genius, and that he believed in God. Of course, the last assumption is for the sake of example only).

              3. I understand that I am wrong (if the rabbi writes in such a strong language that he simply has to be punished in court). But I cannot find where my mistake is.
                If Rabbi Michi refuses to answer, perhaps someone from the public can help me?

              4. In any case,
                the inclusion of all subjects in Hada Mahta is a common sense assumption and not an empirical conclusion (just as no generalization is empirical). At the thinking stage, Einstein's position has weight and there is still no problem in concluding otherwise (because there is also a personal opinion that is aware of everything and yet it seems that way to it, and there is also weight to the positions of other wise men). Isn't that so?

              5. I couldn't understand. What is the “inclusiveness of all topics in Hada Mahta”? (I present an argument consisting of three assumptions: A. Geniuses are less likely to make mistakes; B. Einstein was a genius; C. Einstein believed there is a God. Where is the generalization here?)
                Regarding the conclusion of your words: It is clear that it is possible to conclude otherwise, and I never claimed that the conclusion of the argument is that *there is a God*, but rather that the conclusion of the argument is that *there is a high probability that there is a God*. And this necessarily follows from the assumptions, because the first assumption is not that *geniuses do not make mistakes* but that *geniuses make fewer mistakes*.

              6. What would you answer to someone who claims that on the subject of divinity, geniuses are like ordinary wise men and are as wrong as others?

              7. T, (For some reason there is no ‘Reply’ button below your response, so I am forced to respond as a response to my previous message)

                Anyone who claims this will have to explain why he thinks this way, why the subject of divinity is different from any other subject.

                Of course, technical explanations can be given, that Einstein only dealt with physics and therefore in what concerns divinity he simply did not use his genius. With this, one can definitely agree, what is at issue here is not the specific case of Einstein nor the specific subject of divinity, but the positioning of an argument such as ”B as belonging to the plane of common sense instead of the plane of defined logical arguments.

              8. First of all, I don't see why someone who thinks there is a difference needs to explain more than someone who thinks there is no difference. What is the comparison between topic A and topic B? It is agreed that he did not fall into a simple fallacy. Second, empirically there is also a big difference between the topic of God and the other topics. In physics, geniuses who heard each other disagreed much less than on God (or on a host of other topics).
                Common sense says that someone who is wise and right on many topics will also be more right on a particular topic, and regarding a particular topic there is nothing empirical but only common sense. That's how it goes anyway.

              9. You are caught on the example of Einstein and God, but I have already preempted the blow and written that this is not the issue, but the type of argument (let's call it the 'argument from authority'). As far as I understand it, Rabbi Michi did not mean that the argument stems from common sense, since all dealing with the divine touches on common sense, but that the *type* of argument stems from common sense.
                Regarding your words themselves, I do not agree with a single word. The divine can also be decided by simple logic, if it turns out that nothing belongs without a cause, or a complex world without a designer, and so on. (There is always some level where one must reach common sense, after all, the first axioms are always common sense and nothing more. The question is whether it remains within common sense or that after the basic axioms one can put together a logical argument. Otherwise, there is no such thing as a logical argument, it is all common sense).

              10. The argument is always based on an extension from a specific detail in which, as a genius, he was more right to another matter in which his rightness is not known. This extension is an assumption of common sense, and it is open to dispute. I referred to God only as an example. Tell me where the general claim comes from that on every issue in the world, wise men are more right. There are issues in which there is a clear priority for knowledge and wisdom (for example, to the question of what is the solution to a certain integral if I am not able to set and calculate) and precisely because of this there should be no disputes between wise men, and it is impossible to expand from there to there. So your argument is based on a general assumption from common sense and logical argument, as usual, does not add anything to it.
                The fact that something seems like simple logic to you does not mean much, it is a fact that wise men have also disagreed about it. Moreover, if it is so simple, then there is no advantage at all for wise men. Wise men do not understand better than I do that if all men are mortal and Socrates is a man, then he is mortal. To use Einstein, we have to say that this subject is vague and elusive and complicated and misleading and confusing, and therefore only true geniuses penetrated through the screens and got to the point. And all this when I assume that there is no difference between discovery and justification (Einstein has an advantage in discovering new things. But after he discovered and explained his reasons, then his advantage is greatly reduced. Because I agree that even in things that remain in doubt, Einstein's intuition, which specialized in its elimination, has an advantage).
                Anyway, I have nothing more to add, and at least I convinced myself 🙂

              11. What extension??? Genius helps to reach the truth. If I know that he is a genius, I know that he had the tools to reach the truth more than other people (as I emphasized, genius is not the only condition to reach the truth. But it is an important condition, and if he had this condition, he would be closer to the truth than people who lacked this condition).
                I did not understand what you mean by the second part. I argue that it is simple logic that smart people are closer to the truth. I am not using Einstein for this argument itself, but rather that this argument claims that Einstein can be used as an authority (limited!).
                Regarding the parentheses, Einstein has an advantage in every area where genius can help to reach the truth.

            1. Fascinating post. Huge kudos to the dear Rabbi Mikhi 🙂
              P.S. I didn't read the comments to the post, if there is any duplication in your words on what has already been said, my apologies. And to the point, I think that certain atheists (that I know) do think and do have common sense on this issue (to the time of the Rabbi on the 'atheistic garden'), and they simply associate the 'God in charge' (*Lord of all actions*, to the buttons of Rabbi Nathan, disciple of Rabbi Nachman) with the concept of ‘God’, and it is clear to them that there is no ‘managing God’.. (from legitimate arguments [although of course not necessary], as the Rabbi himself came to [Nachshon Waxman, Shoah, etc., etc.]), and therefore they see it as idle speculation to even think about a ‘creating God’ (an abstract creator/planner/ etc., etc.), when they “witness” that there is no governing God in the capital.. and therefore from their perspective if there is no circulation between ‘managing God’ (Leader at every moment) God is a planner.. The law is that there is no ‘God is a planner’ either!

              And even if you give good arguments for affirming ‘God is a planner’, it will be very difficult to convince them of it, because they have a pious circulation between the planner and the manager, and it is more logical (in their opinion) intuitively to claim that the arguments in favor of *affirming God is a planner* are not necessarily deductive, while *denying God is a manager* are more necessarily.. (In their opinion, this is a revealing argument. Hence all the gibberish..)

              It seems to me that ’this garden’ What atheists have in mind is very simple.. a circulation between the Creator and the leader.. (Rightly so, common sense would tend to agree with the above circulation. Speaking of education and wisdom.. *educated* philosophers can easily separate) Once there is a separation of powers (this is difficult to achieve, because humanity defines ‘God’ with a very clear definition) then the mysterious ‘garden..’ that is in the minds of atheists who ignore good arguments, disappears completely.. (Although it is not certain [in the highest sense] that this is the conclusion of Judaism, etc.)

              1. And in conclusion – I think that Rabbi Daicha's insight, may God have mercy on him, but he does not operate in the world, is a conclusion that is systematically reached after the insight that there is a God, and after a few years, the empirical explanation claims that he does not intervene in our world, and in the end we were orphaned by the intervention, but we were left with the transcendental being. . .
                But for a person who comes from the beginning with great doubt in the reality of God. . . sees the orphanhood from divine intervention. And concludes that God is not a heaven ‘God’…

              2. This is actually a kind of intuitive paradox. If the deistic god (agnostic/creator) exists, it is a sufficient condition for the existence of the intervening god (theistic/sovereign of all the universe).
                And on the other hand, if the intervening god *doesn't* exist, it is a sufficient condition for the negation of the deistic god as well..

                In short (sorry I dug through 3 messages, I felt the need to refine a different refinement each time) everyone chooses to hold the rope from whichever direction they feel like. Intuition claims that these 2 types of gods should be one and the same.. and if one of them does not exist, the other necessarily does too.. and vice versa, if one of them exists, the other necessarily does too..

                And this is an advantage in my opinion for the Rabbi's lean theology… (in principle I am not a believer in it) it can bridge the gap between those who do not see the end (intervention) and yet will be able to accept the end.. (creation)

    2. The problem with your assumption is that there are many smart and talented people who believe in God, and on the other hand, many equally smart and talented people who are complete atheists. Conclusion: Faith is not related to wisdom and talent (and by the way, Einstein did not believe in God, that's just a legend of charlatan converts).

  3. Interesting, thank you very much.
    A note not on the substance, but in connection with the subject of the dedication of the post: I became acquainted with the depth of the work of Pro’ Gavison only after my graduation, that is, in recent days, out of curiosity. I discovered a fascinating intellectual personality, endowed with an exceptional substantive approach in our regions, who reminded me to a considerable extent of the rabbi. She reminded me so much that a few hours ago I searched for her name on the site, hoping to find a comment by the rabbi on her positions and approaches on legal and political matters.
    So, at least for me, the timing of the publication of the post was special. In short, a great loss to the substantive discourse in the State of Israel, and to the speakers of criticism against judicial activism in particular.

    And in essence, I have a small question about the rabbi's objection to the assumption that faith is a position that, on the surface, is distilled from some explanation (genes, education, etc.) compared to an atheistic position, which is seemingly more logical at first glance.
    I don't think this is such a fateful issue (after all, a position must be examined for its own sake), but in light of man's simple intuition that the world operates according to the laws of physics (with the exception of free will), is the atheistic assumption no longer necessary? Is the fact that God is an abstract concept, difficult to define (and the fact that each of the evidence for his existence defines him differently), that he has no trace or evidence in the external world (and again, I reserve the indication from the internal world) irrelevant?

    1. This is what the arguments I mentioned are about. A simple assumption is that if something is complex, it has a component, and if there are special laws, there is a legislator.

  4. The claims are not that God does not really exist. Rather, God exists in the imagination of believers, just as Santa Claus (Harry Potter) exists in the imagination of foolish Christian children.
    Can something that exists in the imagination exist outside the imagination? The answer is no. Of course not. Mental concepts exist only in the mind of the person who conceives the concept.

  5. Hello Rabbi, I didn't understand something small - why is the definition of a religious person as someone who prays to be influenced by God a strict definition? And what definition would the Rabbi give (if any - after all, many people define the God they believe in differently)? Thank you!

      1. So, if the rabbi were to conduct a survey, would he define a religious person as someone who believes in the existence of God regardless of whether he has a relationship with the world?

  6. By the way, here is a response to Avigdor Feldman's article:
    https://www.ha-makom.co.il/post-david-answers-avigdor/
    Embarrassing.

  7. It should be noted that academics actually believe in the god of academic status, which grants them wisdom out of nothing.

  8. In my opinion, the tendency exists in the excessive weight attributed to the evidence for the existence of God. The comparison to a sealed kosher seal with a plumb bob is really exaggerated … hand on heart, the ontological cosmological complexity morality, etc., set of evidence is not that good evidence. I mean, they are fine, really fine, I wouldn't say they are tin arguments, they are indeed thought-provoking, but the above evidence is far from providing an intellectual knockout (especially the ontological and cosmological argument, their level of persuasion is low even compared to the argument from complexity). God is far from being a piece of meat with a sealed kosher seal of Rabbi Mahfoud. Unfortunately, God cannot be empirically verified, and add to that the fact that since the creation of the world, his traces have disappeared in a truly suspicious manner, and you have received a package of meat with a half-open package and a kosher seal of ‘Tzohar’.
    I am willing to admit that the above evidence for the existence of God is indeed good if the obvious conclusion is agnostic. Hand on heart, this evidence does indeed have enough weight to admit the possibility that there is a perfect and infinite being, etc., etc., but from here to admitting its existence as a fact in reality, a considerable theological leap is required. It must be admitted that the atheist side also sins of lacking weight, most of them dismiss the above evidence for the existence of God casually, unjustly, and for the most part do not understand the evidence properly.
    In any case, even if all the above evidence is good enough not to rule out the possibility of God's existence, it is only a philosophical God, the additional evidence needed to recognize the religious-personal God, the one who wants us to carry our sister-in-law and throw goats off a cliff once a year, is even weaker evidence.
    Note that in Neil Tyson's video the opening question of the survey is not: ‘Do you believe in God’, but ‘Do you pray to God to intervene in your life’. In other words, the percentages of the survey represent truly religious people, those who are convinced that God does indeed intervene and care. I believe that the results of the survey fit the question well. The cross-sections that Tyson presents (population PhDs scientists senior scientists) constitute a pretty good parameter for testing, although it is not a perfect parameter, the rabbi pointed out certain problems in the post, but it is better than any other division parameter that I can think of. And indeed, as the sample cross-section decreases, fewer and fewer people are convinced of a personal, caring, involved God, one to whom one should pray, because the arguments needed to jump from belief in a philosophical God to belief in a personal God are really very unconvincing.

    As stated above, the greatest success of the believer in the modern era (and of our rabbi in his first book in the trilogy) is, at most, bringing atheist hearts closer to the agnostic realm in the context of a philosophical God. Beyond that, it is not really convincing, and Tyson's video confirms this.

      1. I think Tyson is not concerned with prayers but with the very existence of God. The data presented at the beginning was only the appetizer for the discussion. Beyond that, as I showed in the first book in the trilogy, there is a connection between the questions. Beyond that, most of my arguments here hold true even if you are right.

        1. Rabbi, it's true, the question probably came as an appetizer, but in light of this, I don't know how to relate to the last statistic that Tyson presented right at the end of the video, which claims that only one percent of philosophers believe in God. Is it true? It's not clear who the group of philosophers here is, but we can assume that here too they are talking about those with PhDs. A single percent is a preachy thing to say, despite the problems with surveys like these… after all, the discussion of the existence of God is a philosophical discussion (probably entirely, but certainly most of it), and Tyson claims that 99% of the experts on the subject (at least in the academic standard) are not convinced of the existence of God even in the philosophical sense??? I wonder if this is true, it seems exaggerated or misleading to me, it's unlikely that the evidence for the existence of God is so bad as to convince only a single percent…

          1. I do not see philosophers as experts, but perhaps as those who are well acquainted with the methods and arguments (and this is also mainly meant for academics, who, as I wrote, are not philosophers).
            In the question of whether it is convincing, there is no expertise, and the relevant criterion, if any, is wisdom.

    1. מה הביטחון בחותמת של הרב מחפוד? (לשווייק) says:

      To Schweik – Hello Rabbi,

      How reliable is Rabbi Mahfoud's stamp? And is it not possible that one cat found meat in the trash and put it in a bag; a second cat played on the computer and stamped letters on metal; a third cat threw the metal in the trash; a fourth cat put the metal stamp on the bag with the meat; and a fifth cat took the bag and hid it in the grocery store's refrigerator?

      Each of the possibilities described is not impossible, and a rare coincidence is also not untenable, especially since a mechanism of ‘natural selection’ is at work here; since it is clear that the grocery store owner will not leave in his refrigerator anything but the same bag that, by a rare coincidence, was stamped with Rabbi Mahfoud's kashrut stamp.

      Best regards, S/ Charles Dervinger

      1. In the spirit of the 10th of Elul 5772

        And to the point: there is value in scientific thinking that strives to bring conclusive evidence ‘in the wisdom of reasoning’ for every claim, while completely negating every other option. But in life it doesn't work that way. The most fateful decisions in a person's life are made not by scientific precision, but by an intuitive decision as to which option is more likely, and in fact, even scientific inquiries are based on intuitive assumptions.

        Sometimes scientists are so immersed in ’recursive thinking’ that they lose some of their healthy intuition. Which has an advantage for the ordinary person… And so it is a pity that the political and military experts in World War I did not have the simple intuition of the ordinary soldier Schweik 🙂

        With best wishes, Sh”t

        1. יתרונם של דברי חכמה הנאמרים ע"י חכמים מובהקים (מדברי רבי אברהם גבישון, בעל 'עומר השכחה' על משלי) says:

          On the eve of the 8th of Elul 5771

          Professor Ruth Gavison, as a daughter of a Sephardic-rooted family, faithfully represented the spirit of pride and loyalty to Jewish heritage. As the granddaughter of the Jerusalem Dayan Rabbi Yosef Mordechai Halevi, and the niece of the Sephardic Rabbi of Jerusalem Rabbi Eliyahu Pardes, she continued in her place the approach of scholars who do not condescend to the public, but are connected to it out of appreciation and respect for the will of the public.

          On the other hand, one of the ancestors of her family, Rabbi Avraham Gavison of Tlemcen in Algeria, writes (in his commentary on the Parables of the Forgetful Omer) about the verse: ‘The words of Solomon, king of Israel– It is to be taught that these proverbs are superior to all the proverbs that came before them, since they came from the mouth of Solomon, as it is said in it: “And he was wiser than all men… and even more so from the mouth of Solomon, and even more so from the mouth of a king of power… and even more so from the mouth of a king son of a king… and even more so a king for Israel great and exalted, a wise and intelligent people…’.

          From the words of Rabbi Avraham Gavishon, both sides emerge. There is an advantage in the wisdom of a distinguished sage from his great personality, but there is also an advantage from being the leader of a wise and intelligent people who are attentive to the &#8217wisdom of the masses’.

          With the blessing of a fruitful Elul, Shࢭt

          1. In the book "I am for my uncles and my uncles" 2017

            One of the problems of successful people, who make a career in the scientific, economic, military, political or legal fields, is the pride that may accompany success. "I" acted, and "I" did, "I" discovered, and "I" developed. When the consciousness of the "I" is developed in a person and swells beyond all proportion, he is at high risk of reaching the "I" in your heart and forgetting the "I" God. After all, the admission of submission to God lowers the ego.

            However, it should be noted that most successful people are not like that. According to Tyson's data, 60% of scientists, the vast majority of them, believe in God. And this is also an understandable and expected phenomenon. A person who studies and discovers more and more the wonderful wisdom in the organization of nature, when the brain of a fly is a supercomputer that no human being can produce. Such a person is filled with admiration for the Creator of the world, and this admiration does not contradict his consciousness as a successful person. He thanks his God for giving him the strength and talent to do great things, and his success brings him humility towards his Creator and his creatures.

            With the blessing of a less egocentric year, Sh”t

            1. On the 28th of Elul 5772, Rabbi Menachem Froman said on behalf of his wife, Rebbetzin Hadassah, that when there is a question about which specialist to go to, she prefers to consult with one who excels in humility, and therefore is not fixed only on what comes to mind, but is open and attentive to a different line of thought.

              On the road to Tzachot, they said that the best of doctors is the one who is the best of doctors, meaning the one who considers himself the best of doctors and is not willing to hear a different opinion, is the one who is likely to fail and make a serious mistake that may cost him his life.

              Pride tends to lead even those with talent and knowledge to make serious mistakes, and on the other hand, humility, which allows a person to examine different lines of thought, is what helps him to orient himself to the truth. And because of this, the law was established that they were humble and preceded the words of those who disagreed with their own words, and the rabbinic court explained that this was an advantage not only in terms of standards, but also in increasing the chance of reaching the truth, by clarifying "all parts of the contradictor."

              With the blessing of "May the year of true openness be a year of truth," Sh.

              1. In the last century, the percentage of communists in academia was much higher than their percentage in the population (it is still the same today, except that it has a different name - progressivism). Today, the percentage of supporters of Palestinian terrorism among the educated elite is much higher than the rest of the population. What does this mean?

                The basic assumption that faith - any kind of faith - is related to intellectual intelligence is completely wrong. Faith belongs to the realm of intuitive intelligence, which has - in a sense - an inverse correlation with intellectual intelligence. Just as many geniuses suffer from low emotional intelligence, they also suffer from low intuitive intelligence.

  9. You are prolonging and here and there you were not clear enough. In conclusion, you bring two main arguments against Neil's words: 1. The influence of the environment. 2. The influence of discipline. Even if we agree with you about the first, I don't see why not about the second. And honestly, there is something that has been bothering me for quite some time: Do you really believe yourself to be religious?

    1. I have provided clear evidence for this from his data, so it is not a question of your or mine impressions. Of course, you can always stick to your a priori assumption (agenda). It is not for nothing that I wrote to whom my words are addressed.
      As for the question of whether I believe myself, you know. Maybe I do not believe the answer I will give you here either, so what is the point of asking/wondering.

      1. Sorry, I didn't see any clear evidence that convinced me. You made some comparison between math and physics and between percentages, is that what you call evidence? I saw more subtleties than your worldview, which I am not denying and think about. If you were wrong to think that I have an agenda, I will tell you: I do not. I am certain of two things: 1. That I do not know. 2. That by rejecting the lie I am positively approaching the truth. As for whether you believe in yourself, I do not know – only you know, that is why I am asking.

        The link you provided about ‘The Strange Loop’ was out of place. I asked out of interest what you think about things. And you did the opposite, you denied without studying the book itself and without apparently demonstrating a correct understanding. You criticize others for not reading your words before they criticize, so uphold it yourself.

        1. In the 1st of Elul 5771

          No, – Hello,

          You say ‘I am sure’, ‘I do not know’, ‘I am repelled’, I am approaching’, ‘I am asking, etc. And I do not understand. We have been taught that the human’self’ is nothing more than a biochemical illusion caused by processes in the left brain. So:

          A. Who is ‘I’?

          B. How is Ramda’ supposed to know if he believes in himself. After all, all his feelings are a ‘biochemical illusion’ and nothing more?

          C. They say I am not myself, therefore I am frightened. Because if I am not myself, then who am I anyway?

          Greetings, Samson Zweiblinger, the Knight of Onions and Garlic

          1. A. Who asks?
            B. Only he knows.
            C. You wrote about it yourself (probably Hofstadter).

  10. A reasonable interpretation of the gap between mathematics and physics - in physics and biology there are theories that the unbeliever mainly considers to be unbelievers and they are considered to contradict faith (theories of the beginning of the universe and evolution). Mathematicians have more freedom of thought on these issues.
    At the same time, it can still be said that the relative share of unbelievers among the educated is greater, so that seemingly even if we focus only on mathematicians compared to the entire population, the argument still stands, and if we assume that mathematicians are smarter, then unbelievers are also smarter, not just more educated.
    But it seems that the rejection of this claim is based on the fact that the correlation between unbelief and education is much stronger than the correlation between unbelief and intelligence. Therefore, it can be assumed that education is what causes unbelief and not intelligence, which is indeed related to education and only because of this is indirectly related to unbelief.
    And strong evidence for the connection between education without intelligence and heresy - the high percentage of heretics who are doctors of humanities…

    1. תיאוריות בריאת היקום דווקא מחזקות את האמונה says:

      To Avishy – Greetings,

      It is precisely modern science that makes faith easier. The ‘Big Bang’ theory brought a big bang in science. From belief in an ancient and infinite world, they came to the understanding that the world was created and limited. The theory of evolution taught the world what the Torah says, that the world is progressing towards a better reality. There are contradictions between Torah and science in the details of things, but since the world is evolving – it must be assumed that our evolving understanding of both Torah and science will ‘close the gaps’.

      Best regards, Sh”z

      1. Indeed, faith can emerge strengthened by any realistic model you put before it, that is its great strength. In any case, the conclusions you draw are at best from popular science books and at worst from books that make you repent. You are simply not in sync with the latest information on the subject nor with the details of the profession. For your information, the above questions (ancient or not, finite or not) are still open and are at the forefront of scientific research. Modern science is able to extrapolate back not to t=0 but only to a certain finite point in time that constitutes an “event horizon” beyond which physics collapses. Everything beyond this horizon is currently subject to speculation only. We do not have a well-established empirical physical model that is capable of dealing with the conditions in that singular state of the universe, there are only speculations that try to squeeze predictions out of existing models or speculations on the philosophical level. Similarly, regarding a finite or infinite universe, this is an open question that depends on precise definitions of the above concepts in a physical context and also on the type of curvature of space and its topology, which are also still at the forefront of research. In short, the answers to these questions are far from being as obvious as you might think.

        1. Not accurate. In the accepted view, time begins with the bang. Indeed, there are searches for events and situations that preceded it with various models of the timeline that would fit this (breathing universes, etc.). And yet after the Big Bang, the assumption that time is finite certainly gained a stronger footing. The burden of proof shifted to the other side.

          1. You are right, the accepted model predicts a finite time, but Syrian, as I said there are updates … This model is not without problems, and the inflationary model claims to answer the main ones. This model is accumulating empirical evidence of considerable weight, and its camp of supporters is growing in quantity and quality. In this model, the curve describing the size of the universe as a function of time does not intersect the time axis but rather tends towards it exponentially.
            To clarify, in the attached graph, your words are directed at the purple curve, which is the current model. The inflationary model is described by the blue curve, and it does not entail a finite time.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe#/media/File:Mplwp_universe_scale_evolution.svg

            And even these curves (for any model) are speculative in a certain sense, because they are all in fact solutions of the Friedmann equations. These are equations within the framework of general relativity only, assuming that the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. First, it is not entirely clear that this assumption is 100% correct in light of the latest and most recent measurements of the background radiation from the Planck research satellite. Second, general relativity collapses at very early times, so it is not clear that it is permissible to use it at all and only it all the way back. At most, it can be used up to a point where an alternative model is needed that also includes quantum effects, under conditions in which all four forces are unified, and we do not have that. An alternative model could change the curves completely.
            We still need to be aware. In other words, there is so much more to discover that all the firm conclusions about what and why and how and how much about reality and the universe and God and purpose and plan, seem too dangerous to me …

            1. On the first day of Elul 5771

              Lashweik – Greetings,

              If things are honest, the world even before the ’Big Bang’ was complex and complicated, to the point that we need to look for theories that are even more complex than Einstein's theory of relativity. Surely such sophistication did not come about by chance, but rather the hand of God worked in all this.

              From now on, our duty increases to thank the Creator of the world for His grace that prevailed over us, that even before we stand to the end on what ‘was before’ – He revealed Himself and gave us His teachings, which guide us on the right and good path, so that we may be partners with the Creator in nurturing the world.

              May the present be, physicists will deal with this ‘until without enough’ – And we should focus on learning how to create a better world.

              Best regards, Sh”t

      2. I agree that the theories are not necessarily contradictory, but are only considered contradictory, and that is what I wrote. Many secularists assume that the Torah is the ancients' explanation of the origin of reality, and now science provides more correct alternative theories.
        And by the way, I will add another reason for the correlation between heresy and wisdom - according to Rabbi Kook, the purpose of heresy is to purify the faith from the dross of idolatry and the fulfillment that it contains. This is also one of the purposes of wisdom - sometimes a wise person succeeds in purifying and purifying his faith, and sometimes he goes a step further and erases it completely.
        However, in my opinion, in most cases, it is precisely enlightenment, not wisdom, that causes the hold on to pagan views, and the differences between the fields of research help support this claim

  11. In the link to the question above, it appears that I wrote that Einstein was an atheist. I repeat what I said there. When asked if he was a pantheist, he replied: ‘I am not an atheist. I don't know if I can define myself as a pantheist.’ To get a fuller perspective, you need to read the book ‘Einstein and Religion’, I haven't read it yet.

    1. “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious consciousness, a lie that is systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied it, but have clearly expressed it. If there is anything in me that can be called religious, it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world, as far as our science can discover it…”

      “I am a very devout atheist. It is a religion of a new kind.” ~ from “Albert Einstein, The Human Side”

      1. Einstein was strongly opposed to religion.
        But regarding the deity itself (deism)..
        From his answers about the world, you hear an inner voice within him that announces: ‘I am a passionate deist.’

        To tap Einstein's understanding of the God of religion, of the God himself, is.. in beautiful terminology ‘analogical fallacy’….
        And in less beautiful terminology ‘lack of conceptual understanding/lack of excessive wisdom/demagoguery’ etc’etc’..

        When we talk about Einstein believing in God, of course we do not mean that he believed in the prophecy: Muhammad/Jesus/Moses are bad”.
        But we mean that he did not believe that our world as it appears before our eyes could have been created blindly (or at least, that is the least intelligent alternative in his opinion).

        And if you want to read a quote (from Wikipedia) that is not natural and open to other interpretations, go ahead. From a letter that Einstein sent to ’Max Born’: (December 4, 1926)
        “Quantum mechanics is certainly impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the “Old Man” [God]. I am, in any case, convinced that he does not roll dice.”

  12. Note: The consideration of whether to follow someone else's (or many) opinion should also depend on self-esteem. A person who knows that math became difficult for him in the eighth grade should rely on the opinion of others when addressing a question such as the risks of the coronavirus. A person who knows that his assessments of people's actions always differ from the assessments of others, and that others are usually right, should rely on the opinion of others when evaluating behaviors (and here is also the place to agree with his words about the foolish nonsense of smart and poor people).

  13. There are two inherent biases among intelligent people against faith:
    One – The idea that there is an intelligent force that towers far above them and dwarfs their intelligence and perception may be difficult to digest for a person with a sense of independent intellectual importance. It is much easier for an ordinary person to accept this.
    The second – In the age of science, a perception emerged that the more intelligent a person is, the more skeptical they should be and not accept claims that are not scientifically proven (but such behavior is irrelevant to non-scientific fields).

    1. Or the belief is not supported by strong evidence and wise people see through the veil of religious gibberish and rationalization.

      1. Almost all wise people throughout history have believed in an intelligent force responsible for nature. The debate has been whether it is one force or different forces, and what the nature and will of the force(s) are. It is difficult to find a wise person who would have conceived such a delusional idea that nature was created by itself. Only in recent generations has this strange idea begun to take hold among intellectuals, probably due to the arrogant thinking that there could be no intelligence greater than their own.

        Incidentally, there is also no evidence for the existence of any of the beliefs that those “wise” wave around: equality, truth, justice, freedom, etc. Either they believe in beliefs without evidence, or they are liars and valueless.

          1. A. Why can't values have evidence? Just as one can receive special enlightenment or revelation to be convinced of the truth of the existence of a higher power, so can they be received to be convinced of the truth of the existence of any other value.
            And if their belief is in utilitarian values and not absolute values (whose description as a 'value' is questionable), then this too can be proven from empirical experience, and yet people believe in the usefulness of certain values even before an empirical test (e.g. communism, feminism, and a host of other ideas).

            B. Why can't values have evidence? If we accept the argument that it is not appropriate for an intelligent person to be convinced of the truth of any claim based on intuition without evidence, then there is no difference whether there can be evidence or not.

        1. Or they know something you don't, and therefore what you ignorantly dismiss as delusional, they know to be plausible.

          This also explains why the change among the wise has only happened in recent generations, in the last 300 years or so. It happened precisely at a time when the amount of human knowledge exploded, and these wise people were given much more knowledge to draw conclusions from.

          1. Interesting. What knowledge did the sages receive that proves there is no God? That the world is much more complex and sophisticated than they ever thought?

            By the way, did those sages also conclude from their vast knowledge that Israel is an apartheid state, that Marxist ideas are beneficial to society, and that sex change will cure mental problems?
            Or maybe it has nothing to do with knowledge but with the worldview that dominates the realms of higher education?

          2. You forget that most intellectuals do believe, with all the knowledge we have today, but the percentage of non-believers among them is higher than the rest of the population, due to their critical tendencies. In any position up for discussion, a higher percentage of opponents is required among the critical than among the non-critical, but nothing can be concluded from this about the correctness of the position.

          3. If their position is based on scientific knowledge, why is there a significant difference in the percentage of believers among scientists across countries, ages, and genders? And why do the absolute majority of scientists in all countries say that science has not changed their religious position?

  14. The basic premise of the entire discussion is wrong. Logical-analytical intelligence is just one of many types of intelligence that exist in the world. There is no connection between scientific and technological talent and social sensitivity, moral sense, or literary talent.

    In my opinion, knowing the truth of faith and values is not at all related to logical-analytical intelligence, but more to the field of wisdom of life, and emotional and moral intuition. In this field, we actually see a clear correlation between intelligence and faith: in most people, faith tends to strengthen with age*, and there is a positive correlation between high emotional intelligence and faith**. This is not proof of the correctness of faith, but if we talk about its connection to intelligence, this connection makes much more sense to the answer.

    *https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-conscious/201602/why-are-old-people-so-religious#:~:text=After%20extensive%20number-crunc hing%2C%20they%20concluded%20that%20people%20everywhere,pattern%20emerged%20when%20the%20researchers%20made%20cross-cultural%20comparisons.

    **https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5653720/1
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249176795_Gender_and_Religion_Deconstructing_Universality_Constructing_Complexity

    1. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-conscious/201602/why-are-old-people-so-religious

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5653720/

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