The Question of Knowledge and Choice 2 (Column 301)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5.1 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In the column before last (the first in the series) I presented the contradiction between God’s knowledge of the future and our free will. I pointed out that the problem includes three components: divine knowledge, our free will, and the temporal relation between them (that the knowledge precedes the act). We saw that, accordingly, there can be four directions of solution: to give up the assumption that we have free will (determinism), to assume that God is beyond time, to claim that even if we accept these three assumptions there is in fact no contradiction, or to give up the assumption that God knows the future. In the previous column I examined the first two options and rejected them. In this column I shall discuss the third option, which is the trickiest of them all. I shall already say in advance that I tend not to accept it, but a shadow of doubt always accompanies me with respect to the arguments against it. In the third column I shall try to sharpen this point a bit more.
C. And Perhaps There Is No Contradiction?
As noted, the third proposal for resolving the difficulty claims that there is in fact no contradiction at all. One can adopt both claims, God’s knowledge and free choice, without changing our attitude to the time axis, and still there is no contradiction here. One way to do this is to examine the notion of “knowledge” as it applies to God. An example of this can be seen in Tam’s question on the previous column (ignore the unnecessary length). The claim is that we have no possibility of understanding God (“If I knew Him, I would be Him” – לו ידעתיו הייתיו), and therefore the term “knowledge” as it appears with respect to Him is not understood by us, and consequently cannot serve as a basis for a difficulty regarding our free will. Some will go further and say that God is beyond logic, and therefore they are not at all troubled by logical contradictions in our concepts concerning God.
I already addressed the second formulation in the previous column (and I shall return to it also in the next one). The logical contradiction is not in God but in us. If there is a contradiction between two claims that I make, I have no way of holding on to both. The statement that God is beyond logic is of no help, even if it were correct (and it is not), since the contradiction is in my concepts about Him and not in Him. Within my concepts there cannot be a logical contradiction. If I hold two contradictory beliefs, I simply do not believe both of them (I merely say both, lip-service only). Our beliefs are subject to the constraints of logic and of our thinking; if they transgress them, they lose all meaning for me.
Now I shall touch on the first formulation. Some hang this on Maimonides’ words in the halakhah brought in the previous column, where he writes:
We have already explained in the second chapter of the Laws of the Foundations of the Torah that the Holy One, blessed be He, does not know with a knowledge that is external to Him, like human beings, who and whose knowledge are two [separate things]; rather, He, may His name be exalted, and His knowledge are one. And the mind of man cannot grasp this matter in its fullness. And just as man has no power to apprehend and find the truth of the Creator, as it is said, “For man shall not see Me and live”, so man has no power to apprehend and find the knowledge of the Creator. This is what the prophet said: “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not My ways.” And since this is so, we have no power to know how the Holy One, blessed be He, knows all creatures and all deeds…
At first glance he seems to be saying that the concept of “knowledge” that we attribute to God is a notion whose meaning differs from the human notion that we use with respect to ourselves. Therefore it is neither necessary nor correct to see a contradiction between it and our free will.
The question that arises here, of course, is whether knowledge in the ordinary sense that we attribute to this notion (like human knowledge) exists in God with respect to the future. If yes – what, then, have Maimonides’ words helped? And if not – then, in fact, what he is saying is that God does not know the future. Therefore changing the meaning of the term “knowledge” with respect to God does not resolve the problem. The contradiction concerns knowledge in its ordinary human sense, and there the situation is: either He has it or He does not. If He has knowledge in some other sense, that is a different claim which does not touch our discussion. What remains to us is to interpret Maimonides as referring to the question how He attains knowledge of the future, or what the relation of that knowledge is to Him (in Maimonides’ language: “that He and His knowledge are one”), but as I explained in the first column, these questions are in no way relevant to the difficulty we are dealing with. However He came to have that knowledge, and however that knowledge relates to Him, if there exists in Him knowledge (in the ordinary human sense), and in fact we saw that it is sufficient that the information itself exists now, the contradiction with our free will remains in place.
We thus learn that what creates the contradiction is the assumption that there exists knowledge, in the ordinary and accepted sense for us, in God concerning the future. If He does not have that knowledge, He is not omnipotent and not perfect. And if He does have it, this does not sit well with our free will. The claim that He has some other kind of knowledge, not in the ordinary human sense, whether it is true or not (what does that even mean? Does such a sentence have any content at all? In my opinion, no), is of no significance for our question.
I shall recall here the conclusion from the first column, that the contradiction is not connected to God and His knowledge but to the very existence of the information. What confuses people here and leads them to hang the contradiction on someone’s knowledge of this information is the fact that if an ordinary person thinks he knows something about the future, there is nothing to prevent that from turning out to be wrong. Therefore a person’s knowledge does not contradict our free will. But God’s knowledge is necessarily true (it cannot turn out to be mistaken), and so if He knows what I shall do in the future there is no possibility that I will do anything else. Yet do not let this mislead you. There is no need for God at all in order to formulate this contradiction. What stands in opposition to my freedom to perform actions is the very existence of correct information. If that (true) information existed in a person, but it were known to us that this information is necessarily true, the same contradiction would arise. Thus what stands in opposition to our freedom is not the fact that someone knows what we shall do but the fact that the (true – it is not enough that someone thinks something about the future) information about what we shall do in the future already exists in the present.
In any case, the only way that remains open to us, if we wish to show that there is no contradiction between His knowledge and our free will (the third direction, which we are dealing with here), is to show that (true) knowledge in the present does not contradict freedom of choice in the future. This is irrespective of who knows it, how he attained that knowledge, what its relation to him is (whether it is external to him or not), and whether he does or does not have some other sort of “knowledge”. This approach maintains that the claim about a contradiction is based on a conceptual error: knowledge in the present, even if it were certainly true and even if it were in the hands of a human being (for example if it were given to him by God), does not contradict our freedom to choose freely in the future.
The Movie Theory
Some formulate this by means of the parable of a movie. Imagine Reuven watching a movie and seeing there Shimon weighing things in his mind, choosing and deciding, and performing various actions. Reuven knows what Shimon is doing, but his knowledge of course does not in any way affect Shimon. Instead of a movie we could just as well speak of knowledge of actions that were done in the past. There too my knowledge does not change anything regarding the events or the agents themselves. They act as they choose, and I know what they did. The claim is that God can watch “movies” of the future, but His watching the movie does not affect what happens in it. If a person were to choose differently, the movie that God would watch would be different, but God’s knowledge has no influence on what happens in the movie. On the contrary: the movie is the cause and God’s knowledge is the effect. Some have understood this as the suggestion of the Ra’avad in his gloss on the above-mentioned halakhah of Maimonides. Among other things, he writes there that God’s knowledge is “like the knowledge of astrologers, who know from some other power what the ways of this person will be” (we shall return to the Ra’avad’s words below).
Shatzal, in a comment to the first column (299), brought the words of the Rivash, who presents this formulation clearly (Responsa, §118):
But what seems to me to answer this question is this: that we are compelled to believe that man has free choice regarding his actions, in order to uphold the commandments of the Torah and their reward and punishment, as is explained in the Torah… And likewise we must believe that the knowledge of the Blessed One encompasses everything that a person will do by his choice before the thing comes into actuality, for we must not attribute any deficiency in His knowledge, Heaven forfend.
And this knowledge does not compel at all, for once it is assumed that man has free choice and it were possible for him to do the opposite – then when God knows that he will perform some particular act, He knows that he will do this by his choice and that it was possible for him to do the opposite. If so, this knowledge does not compel, for the knowledge is that he will perform that act by choice…
Therefore we say that man’s action does not follow from God’s knowing that act before it comes into actuality, but His knowledge follows from that act, which is done by choice and with the possibility of doing its opposite, even though He knows it before it comes into actuality. In this way man remains a being with free choice and the knowledge of the Blessed One remains complete without any deficiency and without depriving man of his free choice.
It is worth noting that it seems from the language of these early authorities that their words revolve specifically around God’s knowledge; this is not a general claim about foreknowledge that does not contradict free choice. But as noted above, this cannot be said only about Him. If there is a contradiction between foreknowledge and free choice, the fact that we are dealing with God does not rescue us from it. Those who follow this path must assume that there is in fact no contradiction between knowledge and free choice, independently of God.
Judith Ronen, in her sharp article “All is Foreseen and Permission is Given”,[1] offers a simple and very elegant logical formalization of this claim. I shall now present her schema for the benefit of readers who are not deterred by a bit of logical formalism (it is not particularly complicated).
A Short Background on Modal Logic
I shall begin with a brief introduction to modal logic. Ordinary logic deals with the truth and falsity of propositions (that is, the truth values of statements) and with the validity and invalidity of arguments. Modal logic, by contrast, deals with the necessity and contingency (= possibility, non-necessary truth, accidental truth) of propositions. There are propositions that are true but not necessarily true (contingent), and there are propositions that are necessarily true. Almost all the true propositions we know are contingent truths. For example, consider the proposition “There is light outside now”. This is indeed true, but it need not have been so. I can imagine another world in which it would not be so (if the earth had stopped and the sun had not yet risen, or in a universe with no sun and no light, and so on). It is important to understand: a sentence that describes a contingent truth is a true sentence (and not merely a possible one), but it is such that we can imagine a state of affairs in which it would not be true. In other words, that truth is not necessary (but only accidental). But as noted, there is also another type of proposition, one that is necessarily true. For example, every dog is either alive or not alive; every bachelor is unmarried, and the like.[2]
In modal logic we define, for convenience, a judgment whose meaning is “necessarily true”, and for clarity we shall express it here by the symbol □.
Now take the sentence “Moses is a bachelor”, and denote it as follows:
- A
The sentence “It is necessary that Moses is a bachelor” is formalized as:
- □A
Now note – and this is the basis of the argument that will follow – that since Moses is in fact a bachelor, sentence (1) is true (it is a contingent truth). In contrast, sentence (2) is not true, for sentence (1) is a contingent truth, that is, true but not necessary. Therefore to say that it is necessarily true is false. There may be a state of affairs in which Moses is not a bachelor, and thus sentence (2) asserts something false.[3]
The standard interpretation (= semantics) of modal judgments is given in terms of alternative (or possible) worlds.[4] According to this interpretation, to say that some sentence is necessary means that this sentence is true in every possible world we can imagine, however fanciful. Thus, for example, there is no possible world in which the dog is both alive and not alive, and so the statement “It is not the case that the dog is alive and not alive” is a necessary truth. According to this interpretation, a sentence is contingent if it is true in our world but we can imagine an alternative world in which it would be false. For example, “This dog is alive” is a contingent proposition, for although here before me in our world he is indeed alive, I can imagine a possible world in which this dog would be dead. This is a correct fact, but there is nothing that compels it, and therefore it could have been otherwise.
Let us now move to the sentence “Moses is not married”, and denote it as follows:
- B
Now consider the sentence “It is necessary that Moses is not married”. It is, of course, formalized as:
- □B
The analysis of this pair of sentences is similar to the previous pair. Moses, who is a bachelor according to the state of affairs in the world, is of course not married. Therefore sentence (3) is true. Not so sentence (4), which is false, because this state of affairs is not necessary. Although Moses is currently in fact a bachelor, there is no impediment to another state in which Moses would be married (and then, of course, he also would not be a bachelor).
Now consider the sentence: “If Moses is a bachelor, then Moses is not married”. It is formalized as:
- A → B
Note that from the content of the variables it follows that this sentence is necessarily true, not merely true. It is necessary that if Moses is a bachelor then he is not married.
Thus the sentence “It is necessary that if Moses is a bachelor then Moses is not married” is true. Its formalization is:
- □(A → B)
We have now reached the core of the argument. Consider the sentence “If Moses is a bachelor, then it is necessary that Moses is not married”. It may look similar, but its formalization will show that this is not so:
- □A → B
This sentence is not only different from sentence (6), it is false. An implication in which the antecedent is true and the consequent false is false. What is the difference between the two sentences? In sentence (6) the necessity concerns the derivation of B from A, whereas in sentence (7) the necessity concerns the sentence B on its own. For someone unfamiliar with the standard logical formalism (the meaning of material implication) this is a bit confusing. It is therefore important to remember here that the fact that Moses is a bachelor does not mean that he is necessarily a bachelor. After all, it is possible that he might have been married. Therefore, although he is a bachelor, it does not follow that he is necessarily not married. It is necessary that if he is a bachelor he is not married, but it is not true that if he is a bachelor then the state of his not being married is a necessary state in itself. We might perhaps phrase it in probabilistic terms: this is conditional necessity (on the existence of A, see sentence (6)) and not absolute necessity.
A Modal Formalization of the Movie Theory
Let us now assign a different interpretation to the propositional variables A and B and see what results. Let sentence A be “God knows today that tomorrow I shall choose X”, and sentence B be “Tomorrow I shall choose X”. From the very same analysis it follows that in this interpretation too sentence (6) is true, that is, “It is necessary that if God knows today that tomorrow I shall choose X, then tomorrow I shall choose X”. But sentence (7) is false, that is: even if God knows today that tomorrow I shall choose X, this does not mean that it is necessary that tomorrow I shall choose X (for I could have chosen not-X).
It is important to understand that absence of free choice means that it is necessary that I choose X (that is, that I am compelled to choose X), not merely that I will in fact choose X. Thus, although one can deduce from God’s knowledge what I shall do, one cannot deduce from this that what I shall do will be done necessarily, that is, a deterministic conclusion. Hence there is no contradiction between God’s knowledge and my free choice. This is Judith Ronen’s claim.
We must understand that this is a formalization of the movie theory. What this formalization teaches us is that although from “God knows today that tomorrow I shall do X” it follows that indeed tomorrow I shall do X, it does not follow that I shall do so necessarily. He watches a movie in which I do X, and therefore it is factually true that I shall do X; but determinism requires that I do so necessarily, and that cannot be derived from God’s knowledge.
Critique of the Argument: Back to the Interpretation of Alternative Worlds
At first glance this argument proves in a decisive way that there is no logical contradiction between God’s knowledge and free choice. In my book I pointed out several ways to attack this argument, but here I shall try to explain this simply, without resorting to complex arguments.
First, note that this claim is not true only with respect to God. It is also true with respect to a human being’s knowledge. We have no need here for anything in God’s unique properties; rather, any knowledge of anyone does not compel a certain action. Her claim is that there is no principled logical obstacle to knowing in advance an action that is bound up with free choice. Only the question of how one attains information from the future remains; we saw above that this is a different question. With regard to that, perhaps indeed only God can attain information from the future (or perhaps an expert astrologer as well). But Ronen’s argument shows that even the very existence of the information, regardless of who holds it and of his capacities, does not dictate the future action. In this sense she really does solve the problem without relying on the fact that we are dealing with God, as we saw we ought to do.
To understand the problematic point in her argument, let us examine this conclusion in terms of the alternative-worlds interpretation. What Ronen claims is that even if God knows that tomorrow I shall do X, it is still possible that I shall not do so. In terms of the modal interpretation, we must imagine a possible world in which God knows that I shall do X but I do not do it. But there is no such world, for the implication itself is indeed necessary. If God knows, then it necessarily follows that I shall indeed do it (but not that I will necessarily do it). Thus there is no possible world in which God knows that I shall do X but I do not do it. Therefore among the worlds in which God knows that I shall do X there is none in which I do not do it. Hence, in such a world, I have no possibility of not doing X.
This is a bit confusing, for Ronen too agrees that the implication is necessary. So where exactly is the disagreement? It seems to me that there is in her argument a conflation of truth value, which is atemporal, with the existence of the information contained in that proposition, which can indeed depend on time. To explain this, we must resort to another confusing argument, which goes by the name “logical determinism” (see on this in chapter four of The Science of Freedom).
Logical Determinism
The discussion begins with Aristotle, who dealt with the statement “Tomorrow there will be a sea battle”. He asked himself whether this statement is true or false. The truth value of a proposition is determined by comparing its content with the state of affairs in the world itself. Therefore, in order to determine the truth value of this statement, we must wait for tomorrow and see whether there will be a sea battle (in which case the proposition will turn out to be true) or not (in which case the proposition will turn out to be false). But the waiting until tomorrow is only due to our limitation. It has no connection to the truth value of the proposition itself. Therefore, if the truth is that tomorrow there will indeed be a sea battle, then the proposition is already true today, except that I do not yet know this. Comparing the content of the proposition with the state of affairs in the world (which can in fact be done only tomorrow) reveals to us that this proposition is true. If so, there is no reason to refrain from saying that it is already true today. The conclusion is that already today the statement “Tomorrow there will be a sea battle” is true, for the truth value of a proposition depends not on time but only on the comparison between its content and the state of affairs in the world. But if so, how is it possible that tomorrow someone will decide not to hold the sea battle? For already today the proposition is true, and if tomorrow there will be no sea battle it will turn out that the truth value of the proposition is false and not true. Here we have a logical proof of determinism.
The Polish logician Jan Łukasiewicz wanted to argue that logic with respect to propositions about the future cannot be binary (true or false). The truth value of propositions about the future is neither “true” nor “false”, but “unknown”. But I really do not agree with this, for as we have seen the truth value of the proposition is determined by that comparison, and therefore it is true or false already today, although I still do not know it. There are quite a few true propositions whose truth I cannot know. For example, the proposition “There are currently more than one hundred billion ants in the universe” is already now either true or false, even though I have no way of knowing this. The fact that I have no way of knowing it does not change the fact that the proposition is true (or false) if it matches the state of affairs it describes. Human knowledge is not related to the truth value of a proposition, and vice versa. Therefore, also with respect to the future, logic is binary, and every proposition about the future is either true or false, even if I have no way of knowing it.
The conclusion from all this is that there are only two truth values for propositions: “true” or “false”. The question whether I know this or not belongs to epistemology (theory of knowledge), not to logic. Therefore “unknown” is not a third truth value, for it is not a truth value at all. It is a description of a person’s cognitive state (sometimes temporary), not a statement about the truth of the sentence itself. The conclusion is that truth values are atemporal, that is, not dependent on time. If a proposition is true, then it is always true, from the Big Bang until the end of days. And likewise for a false proposition. What can change over time is only our ability to know this.
But even after all this, it is still clear that some logical trick cannot prove anything to us about the reality of the world. Logic is supposed to be empty with respect to facts. In other words, logic deals with the relations between propositions and not with the content of propositions. The content, that is, information about the world, must be learned from observation. A logical inference cannot teach us anything about the world. But the conclusion that the world functions deterministically is a factual claim (true or not) about the world. Note that this argument is what is called an “ontological proof”, that is, an argument that proves a claim about the world from conceptual-logical analysis (see in the first booklet here, and in the first conversation in the book The First Being). And indeed, this is exactly what the opponents of the ontological proof (rightly) claim. But as I argued there, it is not enough to point out that we are dealing with an ontological argument in order to reject it. One must identify exactly where the flaw is in the argument itself. If there is no flaw in the logical argument, then it itself shows that those who criticize it are wrong: here is an argument that proves a claim about the world from logical-conceptual analysis.
It seems to me that the flaw in the argument is the connection it makes between logic and the world. The fact that a certain proposition has a truth value at some time does not mean that the information exists at that time. This is only a logical statement and not a fact. The truth value of a proposition is a definition of logicians, that is, a description of how we relate to propositions, not a description of some fact. If I now know that tomorrow there will be a sea battle (let us assume from some reliable source), then indeed tomorrow there will be a sea battle. But if the truth value of the proposition “Tomorrow there will be a sea battle” is already fixed today, this does not mean that what will happen tomorrow is already fixed today. If tomorrow there is a sea battle, then already today the proposition is true; but if tomorrow there is no sea battle, then the truth value of the proposition is already today false. It may sound strange that the future can determine the truth value of a proposition in the past, but there is nothing strange about this. The truth value of a proposition is not information and not a fact (as we have seen, it is a definition of ours). Therefore there is no impediment to the future’s determining a logical definition of the past. There is an impediment to the future’s determining information in the past, for causality runs from past to future (this follows from the theory of relativity: information cannot travel faster than the speed of light, and certainly not from the future to the past – outside the light cone).[5] But the relation between a fact and the truth value of the proposition that describes it is not causal (but definitional).
Back to Judith Ronen’s Formalization
If we now return to Judith Ronen’s argument, I think its main problem is that it ignores the distinction between logical truth value and information. Even if already today the truth value of the proposition “Tomorrow I shall do X” exists, and this proposition is true, this really does not contradict my ability to do Y tomorrow. But this does not mean that if the information that tomorrow I shall do X exists already today, I will be able to do Y tomorrow. If God knows what I shall do tomorrow, there is no possibility that I shall do something else tomorrow (there is no alternative possible world in which this can happen). Hence, if God knows, I am indeed compelled to do what I shall do. The reason is that God’s knowledge is not merely the truth value of a proposition but information, and the existence of information contradicts the freedom to do otherwise in the future. The material implication used in logic expresses a relation between truth values of propositions (it is impossible that the antecedent be true and the consequent false), but not necessarily a causal relation between them.
We can perhaps see this as follows. Suppose I hypnotized some person to perform act X, and now he performs the act “of his free choice”. By this I mean that at the moment of action he feels that the choice is entirely in his hands. Has he really chosen freely? Compatibilists argue that he has. If a person is compelled to do something by his own nature, this is called his free choice. He chose, and nothing else (that is not himself) compelled him to do it. But at the beginning of my book The Science of Freedom I explained that this is a very implausible definition of freedom. Freedom is supposed to include the hypothetical possibility of doing otherwise. When you are compelled to do something, even if what compels you is your own nature, you still do not have the freedom to do or decide otherwise, and therefore it is hard to regard this as free choice.[6] When God knows in advance that I shall do X, then I really have no possibility of doing something else. Therefore it is difficult to regard this as an act done by my free choice. Of course, I could have done Y, and then God would also have known that I shall do Y, and all this is entirely possible. But under the assumption that God already now knows that I shall do X, I have no possibility of doing Y tomorrow. This is information (true) and not merely the truth value of a proposition.
We can see this from another angle, via Newcomb’s paradox.
Newcomb’s Paradox[7]
Newcomb proposed a thought experiment involving two people: a chooser and a prophet. Before the chooser lie two boxes: one is open and contains $1,000, and the other is closed and contains either $0 or $1,000,000 (the chooser does not know which). The chooser must decide whether to take the contents of both boxes together or only the contents of the closed one. Here the prophet enters the picture. We assume, for the sake of discussion, that his predictive capacity is perfect. He knows in advance and with certainty what the chooser will do, and in accordance with this he prepares the contents of the closed box the day before the chooser makes his decision. Since the prophet wishes to give a prize to someone who is satisfied with little, he adopts the following tactic: if the chooser is going to take both boxes, he already now ensures that the closed box will be empty. But if the chooser is a person satisfied with little and is going to take only the closed box, the prophet makes sure to reward him by placing in it in advance (already today) a million dollars.
The chooser knows both the prophet’s capabilities and his strategy (how he prepares the closed box). The chooser does not know only one detail: what the prophet has predicted regarding his expected choice now (for he himself is not a prophet), and consequently he does not know what the prophet in fact placed yesterday in the closed box. The question I pose to you is: given these facts, which strategy should the chooser adopt? At first glance he should take only the closed box, since that way he will win a million dollars. If he takes both, he will win only one thousand (because the prophet knows this in advance and then ensures that the closed box will be empty). On the other hand, at this point the closed box is already prepared before him, and what is in it was already determined yesterday and will not change now if he acts differently (the prophet is not a magician but only a prophet. He is omniscient but not omnipotent. He cannot change the contents of the box in the present). If so, why should the chooser not take, along with the closed box, also the open one with another thousand dollars? His taking the second box cannot retroactively change the contents of the closed box. What is in the closed box is there already, and now he merely adds another thousand dollars for himself. It seems that taking both boxes is the winning strategy in any case. However, if the prophet is truly omniscient he will ensure that in such a case the closed box will be empty. Thus, when the chooser takes both boxes, he will win only $1,000, that is, he chose incorrectly. If this does not happen, it contradicts the prophet’s omniscience.
In the period when this paradox was published, a phenomenon called “Newcombmania” developed, that is, people’s addiction to thinking about it. The philosopher Robert Nozick, in his 1969 article in which he presented Newcomb’s paradox to the public, reports that almost everyone has a clear position on the question, and almost everyone also thinks that whoever holds the opposite position is a complete fool. Yet there is definitely no consensus about which position is correct.
In the deterministic picture, this difficulty is clear. There is no obstacle there to thinking that the information already exists now. Even if no one can access it (because it is very complicated and complex; to the prophet’s sorrow there is no computer powerful enough to predict it), the information exists. Therefore there is no principled obstacle to the existence of a prophet who knows it. This argument is a thought experiment conducted according to the determinist’s assumptions, and it challenges them. In fact, it claims that the determinist is necessarily wrong, for his assumptions lead to a contradiction. Newcomb’s paradox is in effect an a priori argument against determinism, for if determinism is correct, then the information indeed exists and such a prophet is possible in principle. According to his view, it emerges that although the content of the closed box is already fixed and will not change, it is nevertheless better for the chooser to refrain from taking the open box and to make do with the closed box alone. Taking the open box with another thousand dollars would, as it were, “erase” a million dollars from the closed box. According to the determinist, the chooser must make a completely irrational decision (to forgo taking a thousand dollars lying before him), or alternatively he must believe in causal influence backwards in time (that taking the box will retroactively change its contents). This proves, from within, that determinism is utterly implausible.[8]
At first glance, the conclusion is that determinism is false, and we must adopt a libertarian conception. The assumption that there exists such a prophet covertly presupposes a deterministic position, for in the libertarian picture we cannot speak of such a prophet, since it is impossible to know in advance with certainty what the chooser will decide. If the information does not exist now, how can someone know it with certainty?
But Maimonides’ question assumes that even if we adopt a libertarian conception, there is no obstacle to knowing that future information, and therefore he wonders how it is possible that God (who plays the role of the prophet in this game) knows everything in advance and at the same time we have free choice (I remind you that the Ra’avad agrees with him). The bigger problem is that both Maimonides and the Ra’avad in their conclusion remain with both beliefs together: both divine knowledge and human free choice. At first glance this experiment proves that such a position is impossible. If man has free choice (that is, the world is not deterministic), then we cannot assume that the information exists in advance (that there is such a prophet). That assumption leads us to a contradiction.
In other words, the assumption that God knows in advance what I shall do (that there is a “prophet” as in Newcomb’s story) necessarily entails that I have no choice. It is impossible to say that God knows my deeds in advance and that nevertheless I have free will. This is a proof that Judith Ronen’s ontological argument (= formalization) is incorrect. The explanation of the precise error in it was presented above.
One might have argued that all this is correct if some human being could function as a prophet and know in advance what we shall do in the future. But God is not bound by these rules of the game. Yet this is again the same mistake. There is no obstacle to God’s revealing this information to some person, or to His preparing the boxes Himself and playing the game I described with some person. What would that person’s strategy be in such a case? We can repeat the entire argument and see that he has no strategy. We are again caught in the same loop. Therefore this argument attacks God’s knowledge as well, not only a human prophet’s knowledge. As I have already written here more than once, the fact that God knows the information, or that anyone knows it at all, is not relevant to the discussion. What creates the contradiction is the very existence of the information.
Some have sharpened the difficulty by extending Newcomb’s problem to a glass box. If the closed box is made of glass, that is, the chooser sees what is in it. Now imagine that he sees a million dollars in it and understands that the prophet predicted that he will take only it. Can he now not take both boxes, in order to gain another thousand dollars, against the prophet’s prediction? If he has free will he certainly can take the second box as well. So what will happen now? Will the box empty itself as if by magic? I remind you that the prophet is omniscient, not omnipotent. Similarly, if the chooser sees that the glass box is empty and then it is clear to him that the prophet predicted that he will take both. To annoy the prophet, he may decide to take only the closed one. Is this not possible? Under the assumption that he has free will this is of course possible. The claim that it is not possible forces us into determinism. The claim that it is possible says that there is no prophet who can know in advance what I shall do. Once again, the clear conclusion is that there is no way to reconcile foreknowledge with free will. We may perhaps save the possibility of prophecy and God’s omnipotence, but only at the price of adopting a deterministic view; or we may save free will but only at the price of foregoing divine foreknowledge.[9]
The Connection to Logical Determinism
Logical determinism points to a mechanism that seems similar but is in fact entirely different. Yesterday there was a note on which it was written whether or not there will be a sea battle. From this the logical determinist wanted to infer that the occurrence of the sea battle is necessary, that is, that it could not have failed to occur. My answer was that the occurrence of the sea battle is what “writes” the note retroactively. What is written on it a thousand years ago is determined at the time of the occurrence now.
Why is this possible (also according to the libertarian) in the context of logical determinism, whereas in Newcomb’s prophet it is not possible? Why can the determinist not argue here too that taking both boxes will retroactively change the contents of the closed box? The difference is very simple. In the context of logical determinism we are not dealing with information but with the truth value of a proposition, and as we have seen, that truth value can be determined retroactively from future to past (this is not a causal influence from future to past, but non-causal determination – a change in the content of a logical definition). By contrast, Newcomb’s paradox speaks of a note that contains information, or a box that contains money. Here we are dealing with a fact in the world and not merely a logical definition, and therefore it proves that such a note or box cannot exist before the occurrence itself. I explained earlier that the truth value of a proposition is not information but a logical definition, and therefore it is atemporal, that is, there is no obstacle to its being determined by a future event. But information such as the presence of money in a box is not atemporal. Information about an event is created only with the event’s occurrence and not before. Causality cannot function from future to past.[10]
Summary
The conclusion so far is that there is no way to maintain both beliefs together: if there is divine foreknowledge, then we do not have the freedom to choose in the future, and vice versa. This of course leaves us only with the fourth option that I described, which I shall discuss in the next column.
[1] In the collection Between Religion and Morality, edited by Daniel Statman and Avi Sagi, Bar-Ilan University, 1994, pp. 35–43. The matter is discussed in the fourth book in the series “Talmudic Logic”, Logic of Time in the Talmud (p. 50ff.).
[2] Note that I do not formulate this as “the dog is necessarily alive or dead”, for these formulations can be debated. There may be a state between life and death (brain death). But “alive or not alive”, “true or not true”, are necessarily true propositions. When there is a positive term that describes the opposite state, we must be careful not to see it as the full negation of the original term. “Dead” is not the precise negation of “alive”. “Not alive” is the more precise negation. In fact, we could have said the same regarding the pair bachelor–married (that is, to use bachelor–not bachelor). This is what I called elsewhere a synthetic a priori contradiction (as opposed to a logical, or analytic, contradiction), but I shall not go into this here.
[3] An interesting question is whether it is necessarily false, or contingently false, and this is not the place to expand.
[4] This interpretation allows us to analyze the modal operators in terms of the standard logical operators that deal with truth and falsity. See about this in the third book of the “Talmudic Logic” series, Deontic Logic in Light of the Talmud (chapter two, and applications mainly in chapter fourteen).
[5] Incidentally, this is what underlies the Talmudic topic of “bereirah” (see, for example, Gittin 25 and parallels). When a person says, “The get was written for that one of my wives who will go out first through the doorway tomorrow”, I have defined a woman on the basis of the truth value of a proposition and not on the basis of present information. The truth value of the proposition is also defined today, even though the event will only occur tomorrow. Therefore it is possible that such a statement will be effective, for the get was written for a well-defined woman (we shall know her concrete identity tomorrow). Although the information as to which woman this is does not exist today, the truth value of the proposition “Rachel will go out first through the doorway tomorrow” will only be known tomorrow; but when we know it, it will become evident retroactively. It will then turn out that already today this proposition was true.
[6] At the beginning of the second Ein Ayah lesson (section 114) and the third (section 115), I addressed this point in light of the Gemara in Berakhot 9a: “And they despoiled Egypt – against their will”, which according to one view is interpreted as against the Egyptians’ will (although “the Lord gave the people favor in the eyes of the Egyptians” and apparently they did this “of their free will”).
[7] See on this in chapter four of The Science of Freedom.
[8] One can propose an experiment in which the experimenter uses scanning of brain signals in order to predict the subject’s choice in a Newcomb-type situation. Below, in chapter fourteen, I shall bring the words of Ariel Poratstenberg of the Hebrew University about their current work on developing such experiments.
[9] One could perhaps save the contradiction if we were to speak of causal influence backwards in time. If the person decides to take the closed box when the prophet (or God) has prepared it full, then the prophet (or God) changes its contents retroactively and thereby realizes his prophecy. But even if such an influence were possible (I very much doubt it), this does not solve the difficulty. He still did not predict what would occur; he was forced to correct it. In other words, we have still proved that there cannot be a prophet who does not have the ability to act causally backwards in time. The possibility of such a prophet depends on an additional factor and is not possible in and of itself.
In my book there I raised several more arguments for and against, but for our purposes what has been presented here suffices. There I tried to prove by means of Newcomb’s paradox that determinism is false, and this requires several more logical twists. Here I am using the paradox only in order to prove that determinism does not sit well with free will (but is not necessarily false), that is, to reject the third proposed resolution discussed in this column, and for that what I have brought here is sufficient.
[10] Judith Ronen, in her doctoral dissertation (which was published as a book, The Fourth Dimension), which dealt with a logical-philosophical analysis of the possibility of parapsychology, argues that there is also causal influence backwards in time. According to her own view she remains consistent, but I do not accept this claim either, and for the very same reasons (in my opinion she again conflates the truth value of a proposition, which as we have seen can be determined retroactively, with information). This is not the place to expand on this further.
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Let's go back to the example of the fool.
Does the fool have a logical contradiction, which is not a logical contradiction but only in his mind, that means that if we fail to solve it for him based on his illogicality, we are at a loss?!
It's similar to saying that God is not omnipotent because he cannot create a shell the size of a violet.
I don't think you addressed that.
I addressed and answered. I will answer again: That fool indeed does not have the possibility of holding both beliefs.
And I will expand on the words of the rabbi.
Yes, the fool cannot believe that God is omnipotent and that there is also a concept of a purple shell.
Now let's think about the analogy, either God is not omnipotent or there is no such concept as "free choice", and therefore, you must choose which belief we must return to.
Miki already addressed in the first option the option of negating choice (determinism) Now what remains (the fourth option) is only to discuss the attribute of "omnipotence" of the Creator of the world.
There is another option, and that is that the fool claims that the question is not correct at all, that there really is no contradiction between things, but to the extent that there is a contradiction, he cannot grasp both extremes - in the last column Miki addressed this point and showed that there is indeed a contradiction between things.
Dear Gel.
The better option for a fool, if he has any sense left, is to conclude that he is a fool and that the problem exists only in his mind, and that the fact that he is unable to solve it is no reason to draw conclusions, because reality is stronger than the limitation in his mind.
Regarding the purple shell, it seems that you did not understand my point, I meant to suggest another limitation of God, after all, He cannot create a shell with a purple length and a yellow width with a liter touch.
And the analogy is, every conceptual error that exists with you is not reality but a concept, and if you change the concepts and call length a color, and color a length, the results will be accurate, but as long as you have not changed the concepts, then you are speaking unclearly, and you cannot expect them to understand you, and if they did not understand you and therefore will not stop the shell you wanted, you cannot conclude about the recipient of the foolish request, but that the disadvantage and the problem exist in your request.
For our purposes, God does not solve problems that are not problems, but brain disorders.!
He can certainly bring you to a state of if I had known, then you might realize that you did not ask for anything, because asking for a purple-length shell means asking for nothing!
That is really a better idea.
I understand what you mean.
You could equally say that the Creator's "omnipotence" is a concept that I should perhaps change.
And that is exactly Miki's last option.
Sh”l.
If the fool does not understand how a car drives, and for some reason in his fevered mind he sees a logical contradiction in the very movement of the car, (see the paradox of the tortoise and the tortoise).
He has two options, a. To conclude that the car does not drive, b. That the car does indeed drive, and he is the one who lacks understanding.
In the parable we have two options, a. He who created our meager minds, and the entire universe, does not drive, i.e. his ability is limited. b. He does drive, i.e. his ability is not limited, and we are the limited.
Each person will conclude what is more obvious from the options. Even if the fool concludes that the car does not drive, of course, we will continue to drive the car to the destination of our desires.
That's it.
Tam,
You are mixing gender with non-gender.
There is a “contradiction” between concepts, and there is a “lack of understanding”:
The concept “all the power of God” in its broadest sense contradicts the concept “choice”. There is no lack of understanding here.
Regarding the tortoise and Achilles, this is one concept that we do not understand, the bones of the concept are not defined to us and are not clear.
Any “end” that you define includes by its very nature an infinite number of parts, and it is not understood how an end belongs? But there are no concepts here that contradict each other.
Go deeper into this and understand.
(For the same reason I disagree with you on the issue of the argument, all of the Creator's knowledge of the future is not defined for us, and therefore the question "the information exists in the world" and therefore I cannot change my choice, is irrelevant.)
Dear Shagel.
Please explain to me, is a square circle a contradiction between concepts?
After all, a circle is a clear concept, and a square is a clear concept, does this show a deficiency in the ability of God?!
For our purpose. The concept cannot, is an understandable concept, but it is not an ability but a concept!
That is, cannot is not an ability, and therefore the question of whether God can be unable is not a logical contradiction showing a deficiency in His ability, but an incomprehensible request, and as in the parable of the square circle, which has no deficiency in the inability of God to do it. Like the shell is the length of the violet, and just as it cannot produce from the sliver.
Regarding the paradox of the dichotomy, the turtle and the tortoise.
As long as there is no end, it is a necessity of reality, so if you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it is proof that the flaw is in our poor minds, not in our God!
Watch and forget..
With blessings, Tam.
Tam, you mixed up a few things again, and here I will close the discussion (I, you can continue to ramble on until “endless”) because you are repeating the same arguments that I have already responded to and the discussion is starting to become circular with no end in sight and no destination.
You proved from this that there are things that are not understandable to us that even between concepts there may be “contradictions” only in our eyes and apparently they are not contradictory.
To this I replied that the proof is incorrect and irrelevant, because there is a “contradiction between concepts” and there is a “concept” that is not understandable.
A contradiction between concepts means that they do not stand together.
Something that is not understandable means that we have not been able to grasp it with our minds.
But it does not contradict anything. Therefore, we can still hold on to it.
You are now repeating, "This is indeed evidence", to which I say, there is no point in discussing it again, you have not added anything new to it, you are just saying "This is indeed evidence", that is not how you conduct a discussion.
In addition, you added another thing about the square circle, I do not understand Chinese, please, a circle by its very definition is not square.
I have exhausted myself, as stated.
Good evening.
PS.
Another general piece of advice, the condescending style in your wording does not contribute to the discussion, and it is apparently preventing you from paying attention to what is the main argument and what is a side argument, what is the question and what is the answer, and as our sages say, "ask as is the matter and answer as is the law", I do not know if the condescendingness is what causes you not to understand the claim or if there is another reason why you do not respond to the claims themselves.
Shagel.
I probably didn't get to the bottom of your thoughts.
And God forbid I didn't mean to be arrogant, if my words came across as arrogant, I ask for your forgiveness.
Captain Kierkegaard argued that the philosopher believes he is investigating the world while he is really investigating concepts. A metaphor he used is a man who sees a sign that says, "Shoes are repaired here," and when he enters the shop, he discovers that the sign is the one for sale.
It makes no difference to our case. Even if we are dealing with concepts (and I disagree with that), we still use them to describe our beliefs.
1. Why doesn't it matter if we deal with concepts? After all, concepts are designed so that we can understand what we can understand in a more friendly way and nothing more.
2. Why don't you agree that we deal with concepts? After all, logic is not the be-all and end-all, it is important, but there are other components, no less important.
3. Regarding the implication for our beliefs.
If we have managed to describe our beliefs in concepts, tefadel (excellent in Uzbek). And if not, why is the conclusion obligatory.
Let's take the example of a car, if I manage to understand how it operates according to my limited world of concepts, great, and if not, it will still continue to drive!
It would not be wise if I concluded, based on my limited understanding of the car's operation, that the car does not drive, and this is only an optimal error, although I can say this, but it is a statement in vain.
Hello
With all due respect, and there is a great deal of respect (really, and not just as a disclaimer!) It seems to me that the logical discussion in this context is really exaggerated.
That is, the arguments for and against are correct (in my humble opinion), the conclusions so far are valid, and the Shekela and Terya are also current and coherent in my opinion.
The question is whether these particular Mishnahs are suitable to be the “nail” on which this entire ”movement” can be hung, and is it really in this context that it has its place?
The contradictions in the Mishnah can be resolved more on the philological plane than on the logical plane.
We (we, especially the Yiddish and the like) have a tendency to understand the language of the Mishnah very closely to the “plain meaning of the words,” something that the author of the Mishnah (or similar texts in the Toshab) probably did not intend. Texts in the Toshab speak in a babbling and exaggerated manner, especially when it comes to content from the realm of outlook, morality, and legend.
Some examples:
From Tractate Avot – If there is no earthly path, there is no Torah,
If all the sages of Israel were in one hand and Eliezer ben Hyrcanus in the other hand,
It is good to study Torah with an earthly path, for the combination of both makes one forget sin,
And every Torah that is not accompanied by work ends up being useless and incurs sin,
A random collection of sayings, most of which can be said, with exaggeration, to be partially true.
Outside of Tractate Avot, the situation can sometimes be even “much worse” :
There are sixty thousand letters to the Torah – is it as accurate as the sixty thousand who came out of Egypt and other people who count the Torah (which they are not)?
Torah between the ages of time and the ages of the dead.. Magna and Matsla – is that how it is literally? As the literal meaning of the words is?
He who has not seen the joy of the house of the draw has not seen joy since his days?
Don't you have a sin worse than theft? – And absurdly, there are quite a few more sins that ”there is no greater sin than theft” (Logically, it is still possible to argue that all of these wrongs are equal and none is more serious than the other, but it is hard to believe that this was the author's intention.)
This entire confused salad of sayings from the threshing floor and the winepress (I apologize - I'm sure better examples could have been found), serves to demonstrate a common characteristic of texts in Tosh'a from the fields of philosophy and legend: they certainly tend to be exaggerated and exaggerated, and our glory will not be in the exact literal interpretation of the text.
Now for our matter - before the difficulty of "everything is expected" that for some reason most rationalists focus on in connection with the "contradiction", we must address the "given authority" that is usually assumed to be literal and could have been seen as a valid argument were it not for the contradiction to the knowledge of God.
Without the knowledge of Hashem, does the possibility of choice really always exist? Doesn't it depend on previous choices made? Someone who committed a crime and was imprisoned in the Gulag can no longer choose to wear the tefillin of Rabbeinu Tam, and even those of Rashi were taken away from him. There are dozens of other commandments and good deeds that he is no longer able to choose. (I am not going into the determinism that stems from natural laws, physical disabilities, etc.). Even according to the "strict" method of choice, the possibility of choice is always relative and very limited. That is, at every decision-making crossroads there is usually a possibility of a minimal choice. Being at this particular crossroads is not a matter of choice, and the options that exist are much fewer than could be understood from the text of the Mishnah as it stands. The choice is relative, situation-dependent, and not absolute.
Similarly, the matter of knowing Hashem - everything is predictable - cannot be interpreted literally either. Knowing God is a powerful attribute, but it is usually not implemented. The Creator has the ability to know what I will do in every situation and in all the permutations of the decision nodes that I will encounter during my life. Does He decide to ”know” this in reality? Probably not.
There will again be those who will argue that with the Creator there is no difference between power and practice, and that to claim that the Creator can know and does not “know” truly is to place a disadvantage on the Creator. In my humble opinion, the fact that the Creator “does not know” is similar to his not answering a prayer and a request, and even then it is not claimed that not answering the request is a defect in his abilities. He has the ability and is also “free to get rid of it”
The main thing I don't understand about this strange message is the question mark that accompanies it. What are you claiming, and why do you think I wrote something different? You seem to be repeating what I said, but for some reason you end with a question mark. Maybe I didn't understand what the message was referring to because it is placed in an unclear way.
I think there is a T in the last iteration. The necessary marking appears on A and according to what you said it seems it should appear on B
Indeed. All the formulas got confused when I moved to the site, but I left it that way because it was clear except for this formula that I corrected. The formula numbers also disappeared and became asterisks.
You wrote: “If I hold two contradictory beliefs, I simply do not believe in both of them (I just say both, verbally and in public). Our beliefs are subject to the constraints of our logic and thought, and if they exceed them, then they have no meaning for me”.
I remember you wrote somewhere that a distinction must be made between a logical contradiction in the same concept itself, such as saying that a triangle is round, which has no meaning at all, and a logical contradiction between two things, each of which is understandable and correct in itself, and only the combination of the two creates a contradiction. And so I remember you wanted to say there [maybe in two carriages?] that with regard to knowledge and choice, since each concept is understandable in itself, regarding the combination of the two, it can be said that we have no idea about God and His essence and we do not know how the two things fit together in it, but this does not prevent our minds from accepting any assumption as correct in itself.
Indeed (end of two carts). I'll get to that in the next column.
You wrote: “This experiment apparently proves that such a position is impossible. If a person has free choice (i.e. the world is not deterministic) then it is not possible to assume that the information exists in advance (that there is such a prophet). This assumption leads us to a contradiction”.
I disagree. Indeed, the assumption that the information exists in advance leads us to a contradiction, but Maimonides”s claim is not that the information exists in advance [in a way that can be ‘calculated’ in any way. That is, that the choice is the result of something in the present] but rather that it exists in the future after his choice, and he who has the power to sail into the future can know this in advance. In the case of the paradox, a person can never choose something other than what God foresaw, because what he chooses ‘in fact’ is what he saw. How that would be is not interesting to me [why a person would be disciplined for this], but there is no contradiction here.
You simply don't accept that such a concept pertains to seeing future events in the present, but if we accept the strange assumption that God is above time, there is no contradiction between this and man's actual choice.
Adding to Eliezer's words and wanting to add my own formulation:
In terms of Newcomb's paradox, it is correct to say that in practice it will never happen that the voter will choose differently from what the prophet predicted. But it should be emphasized that this is not because the voter was forced to do so because of the information available to the prophet. On the contrary, the information available to the prophet is the result of the voter's *free* choice.
So why wouldn't the voter really choose differently from what the prophet predicted? I really don't know, but it doesn't matter. The main thing is that there is no contradiction in assuming that the choice is free even though it was observed in advance.
I think the problem lies in the connection between possible worlds and the concept of freedom. Freedom is possible even without there being possible worlds in which I chose differently and yet the prophecy in them was the same prophecy as in our world. In order for there to be freedom, it is enough that there are possible worlds in which I chose differently and there was a prophecy in them that was different from the one in our world.
Other words:
It is true that there is no possible world in which the prophet predicts X and I choose Y. But that still does not mean that if the prophet predicts X I must choose X.
Equally, there is no possible world in which I choose Y and you, who observe me in retrospect, know X. And that still does not mean that if you know X I must choose X.
Phil, that's exactly what Yehudit Ronen claims. I disagree. If in no possible world could it happen otherwise, that's what's called necessity here. But I'll address your question in the next column (because that's where I intend to raise some sceptics).
I argue like you, just adding something else to complete the argument: “In the same way, there is no possible world in which I choose Y and you, observing me in retrospect, know X. And that still doesn't mean that if you know X, I would have to choose X.” The reason that knowledge does not force the choice is because the opposite is true – the choice forces the knowledge back in time (this is what I wrote below).
You are introducing reverse causality in time here. I wrote that I do not accept this and that Yehudit Ronen does argue in favor of it. If you accept such a thing, then of course you can say anything.
The question is whether there is a good reason not to accept this. I do have a good reason to accept this, so as not to “force” myself to reduce the abilities of the Almighty (any reduction of His abilities is essentially a constraint, and this was clear to the Maimonides, for example). The fact that this contradicts physics of course does not bother me at all, because the Almighty Himself is not part of the physical system.
The question is whether this contradicts physics (in which case, of course, there is no problem) or logic (in which case there is a problem). The arguments here are about logic. I think the discussion has been clarified. I will return to it in the next column (where I plan to present reservations, some of which are related to what has been said here).
Eliezer,
Not true. In the first column I explained that foreknowledge has nothing to do with this. I am willing to accept that God can have foreknowledge, and the problem is how I can escape freely after it.
I didn't understand the rejection of the film theory, because the claim that God knows what will happen is equivalent to the claim that He is not subject to time (in a non-deterministic world), and therefore the claim is not that God knows -today- what I will do -tomorrow-, but that God stands at the 'end of time' and knows what I chose.
He can stand wherever he wants. The information exists today. The indication of that is that he can give it to the person who is here today.
If he gives the information, it will be an influencing factor on the choice and in his role as the Lord of Time he knew in advance what this information would cause the person to do.
At most, the meaning of this is that he cannot necessarily tell the person what will happen because this statement changes reality and therefore the knowledge and therefore changes the statement itself, but there is no flaw in the knowledge.
The thing that needs a definition here is time, because if he can move between points in time, he necessarily knows what was and what will be and can make use of this information and if he cannot move between points in time, he has no way of knowing what will be.
This is of course not a flaw in the knowledge, but there is still a limitation here. That is why I asked, what did you gain from all this?
The Creator can inform man what he will choose in the future, and in this the Creator exercised His ability to deprive man of freedom of choice; The Creator can keep the information with Him and leave man with freedom of choice. What is the problem with that?
Best regards, Gal Quentin, known as Shchel [Two Sides of Reality] 🙂
Exactly. That's what I'm arguing. But both knowing and leaving freedom of choice probably don't fit together.
Ramada”a – Best regards
As long as only God who/is already in the future knows what man has chosen, man's freedom of choice will not be denied. Only ‘notification to the voter’ will prevent him from choosing
With greetings, Gal Quantio
There is no downside here, the claim that what he says affects reality and therefore a statement that would change the outcome cannot logically be true. Like the question of whether God can say something true that is a lie.
In the absence of knowledge, reality has control over God, but here he can do anything and say anything as long as the statement itself does not lead to a result that contradicts it.
Maybe that is why the prophecies are vague and maybe that is why a good prophecy is not canceled and a bad prophecy can be canceled because by nature, bad prophecies are tried to be changed and therefore there are more situations in which the prophecy itself changes reality.
I didn't notice that Shatzel's response refers to this thread, I don't think I'm saying anything different from it.
I argue that the lack of knowledge is not a disadvantage either. Not knowing information that does not exist is not a disadvantage. Beyond the fact that I do not agree with the very claim that knowing it does not force the choice, in my opinion this solution (that he does not know) is more desirable. See the next column.
How many free choices does the average person make per day?
Are some people freer than others?
Why is this important?
Some have weaker constraints under given circumstances (e.g. those who are less prone to violence).
This is important to know that you have an idea of what you are talking about. To know that you are talking about things in reality and not just things in the imagination.
1. You have not defined what free choice is and how do you recognize when such a free choice has occurred.
2. Can the person himself who made a free choice know that it did happen and is it possible that he is wrong and it did not happen.
3. Constraints. Who knows and how there is a situation that is without constraint. According to the feeling?
4. When you think or write in Hebrew, do you feel forced into Hebrew? (Apparently there is no sense of constraint. It is simply what flows.) Does this mean that the choice of writing language is free?
I don't see a response here to the central proposition that there is no contradiction between knowledge and choice. You have presented an approach that logically generates the answer and it has indeed been refuted, and rightly so. But a rejection of the answer is still missing here. These are the key sentences:
“When God knows in advance that I will do X, then I really have no option to do anything else. Therefore, it is difficult to regard this as an act done of my free choice. Of course I could have done Y and then God would have known that I would do Y, and all of this is entirely possible. But assuming that God already knows that I will do X, I have no possibility of doing Y tomorrow. This is (true) information and not just the truth value of a claim.
The statement that there is no possibility is a leap forward. If God knows that I will do X, it will necessarily turn out that I will do X in the end, but this does not contradict the fact that I had the possibility of doing Y. So in fact there is no rejection of the answer here, but a repetition of the same statement. Even with the prior information, there is still no reason that will influence my choice, except for the choice itself – and the absence of an external reason is precisely the definition of freedom of choice.
As for Newcomb's paradox – I do not see any rejection of the deterministic approach there either. Let's assume that the prophet knows how to calculate exactly the circumstantial chain that will lead the person to the choice, he also knows in advance all the calculations that the person will make in his head. Therefore, if the person chooses both boxes, the prophet will necessarily know the chain that led him, and will take care of Leave the sealed box empty.
I referred to this in terms of alternative worlds.
As for Newcomb, what would you say about the transparent box?
In the transparent box, there is a causal effect of the prophet on the voter, so of course he cannot predict his action. Therefore, this does not add or subtract in our discussion.
Not true. The voter can decide not according to his own interests. Therefore, even if the box is full, he can decide not to take the other one or to take it.
I don't understand how this affects our discussion. If the box is transparent, there are two possibilities:
1. The prophet will understand that the person will choose the box if there is money in it and will not choose it if there is no money in it, and will simply declare that he cannot prophesy in this case.
2. The prophet will know that the person will not choose the box even if there is money in it, and in this case he will agree to prophesy.
Where is the problem?
The problem is that the prophet is supposed to see the future. So let him populate the box and let us know what will happen. Declaring that he can't doesn't solve anything, except admitting that there is no such prophet who can see everything that will happen in the future. So neither can God.
There are two different issues here: There is the deterministic prophet, who knows the choice according to the reasons - he analyzes the mind of the voter, and all the external influences and knows exactly what he will choose. Such a prophet cannot deal with the case of a transparent box. On the other hand, there is the non-deterministic prophet, who knows the choice simply because he can look into the future.
Both prophets will not be able to deal with the transparent box because their knowledge of the future has an effect on the person's choice, and therefore it is impossible. In the same way, if the knowledge of God causally affects the voter, he certainly will not choose freely. But as long as there is no causal chain leading from knowledge to choice, the choice will be free.
I am not sure that you read everything I wrote before, I am afraid that the discussion here is getting a little lost due to the lack of continuity, and there are a number of points I wrote that remain unanswered
I am of course talking about a non-deterministic prophet. As I wrote, he has no causal influence on the voter (not in the sense that it determines his steps), since he can do something that is not profitable for him. It is true that the voter takes into account what the prophet has put before him. So what? Why shouldn't the prophet look into the future and see what he will do? I do not agree with this division. Although in the next column I will raise some of my own ideas, some of which are in the same direction as I saw in yours. I think we will stop here, because I have lost the context (there are hundreds of questions here at the same time all the time in several different threads). It is difficult to keep up with everyone.
I am also not sure that I read, there is a lot going on here and it is difficult for me to follow. Sorry.
And as for the alternative worlds – I don't see how that changes the answer: ultimately the question is whether the chooser chooses out of absolute freedom or is his choice influenced by an external factor. Since the direction of causality is from choice to knowledge (back in time), and not from knowledge to choice (forward in time), choice is the source of both and is therefore free. So there is indeed a necessity between them, just not in the direction you mean.
Unlike Newcomb's prophet, according to the deterministic interpretation, who predicts the choice through the circumstances that led to it, God's knowledge is “supernatural”, and is caused by the future.
If necessity is defined in terms of possible worlds, then the term “necessary” is defined by examining all possible worlds. Therefore, you cannot say that in all worlds it will be like this but not necessarily. This is the meaning of necessity. You cannot dance on both weddings, define necessity through the worlds and then divide and say that even though something exists in all worlds, it is still not necessary.
So we come back to my same argument that time doesn't matter: For the purpose of determining necessity, what difference does it make whether I chose before the information exists or after the information exists?
What matters is the reason for the action, and it is – free.
Ariel, I will try to clarify Rav Michi's argument further:
You are indeed right that logical determinism is not physical/causal determinism. Foreknowledge determines the future event, but it is not the *reason* for its existence. The physical cause must be sought separately, and theoretically it is also possible that the event has no cause at all, but rather that it appeared “out of nowhere” spontaneously. There is no contradiction between “being fixed and necessarily in advance” and “occurring without a cause”. Therefore, foreknowledge does not necessarily entail determinism in the physical sense.
Here, the idea of *free* choice does not only mean “acting without an external physical cause”, but also “acting without predetermination”. If I have two doors in front of me, one of which is locked, I cannot be said to be free to choose which one to enter. And for this matter it does not matter whether the first door is locked with a physical lock or with a lock of logical necessity.
And what about the permanent ones afterwards? What's the difference?
If I understand the definition here of ”information” (as opposed to a logical truth value), then the game is rigged in advance.
Information is that which does not allow for a choice contrary to it, and therefore it is clear that no matter how you twist the discussion, you will eventually come to the conclusion that knowledge contradicts choice – because that is how the concepts were defined in advance.
My personal tendency is to ask why knowledge must be defined this way.
We define information this way because we perceive the world of time as linear, and it is impossible that after the choice event there will be a change in information.
But in a nonlinear perception of time, knowledge and choice are supposed to be defined differently.
(I think this is a point that comes up a lot in the comments, simply in a different formulation.)
It is a bit reminiscent of the debates about free choice in general, in which the term “choice” is very vague – And the different intuitive perceptions between people of what this concept is sometimes gives rise to preconceived positions.
I don't know what to say. I think information is a well-defined concept, and it does include the impossibility of changing it. So what? That's exactly the argument. You want to play with the definitions to reach a different conclusion?
Not exactly. The concept is well defined, but not for the conditions of the question.
Note that in your definition, it is about something that cannot be changed: that is, current existence and change in the future.
The definition itself assumes linearity of time. But when the question discusses something that is not linear in time, this definition is not appropriate.
Therefore, I think that defining in advance in a way that is not appropriate for the question is like shooting the arrow and marking the target later.
Thank you. You mentioned Taylor and I was already wondering why you weren't a fatalist like him. The distinction between logical correctness and information enlightened me.
I don't think he's a fatalist. He was just trying to define what fatalism is.
I understand.
Combining the assumptions of knowing the future with the freedom of choice of man actually entails that the ruler of the world does not really have the freedom to do as he pleases. He is bound to the future as determined by the choices of people. This is actually what also emerges from science fiction stories that deal with going back in time. The hero becomes deterministic and loses his creative freedom.
The example that comes to mind – spoiler alert – is Tim Powers's The Gates of Anubis (there is also a story by Stanislav Lem in which the hero is caught in a time loop that repeats 31 days, but it is quite a challenge). In the story, the hero goes back in time from the 21st century to the 19th century and finds himself after a series of adventures playing the fictional poet William Ashbels, whom he researched for his doctorate. After we finish the book, the question arises as to who actually composed Ashbels' poem "The 12 Hours" in the story? It is not the hero who went back in time because he only scribbled the poem he researched for his doctorate in the future. It is also not the poet because the poet is actually the doctor who went back in time only to find himself embodying the poet in the past. The conclusion is that the poem was created by the universe (which is of course Tim Powers himself).
As soon as we say that God knows the future and at the same time we humans have the freedom of choice, this means that the Sovereign of the universe does not have the freedom of choice. He is obligated to do what he will do so that the future will happen. In essence, God ceases to be the first link in the chain that determines what happens. There is a previous link that determines for God what he will do and how he will do so that the future will happen. In this way, God ceases to be the God of causal proof. It is just another factor in the natural world.
Newcomb's paradox (and I thank the rabbi who repeated it because I didn't think twice before) is, according to this, a special case of Kenneth Aru's dictator theorem, according to which it is impossible to establish a consistent order of preferences while being independent of the preference systems of the participating individuals. If God knows the future - that is, the consistent order of preferences - then either we have no freedom of choice (God is the dictator) or God has no choice (man is the dictator). There is no other option. The other option is that God really does not know the future. There is no consistent system of preferences and the final outcome depends on the different preference systems of the participating individuals, both humans and God.
In a side note, I will note that the fact that we are God's creatures does not mean that we do not have freedom of choice towards Him. I once read a quote from Amos Oz who once told how one breakfast, one of the characters in a story he wrote appeared at his place and informed him that she had decided to get a divorce. Amos Oz tried to argue with her and tell her that it did not fit into the plot he had planned but that she was ripe. In the end, the character got divorced and Amos Oz was forced to change the plot (the quote is found on Nir Stern's website, Adam Chai).
Since my amazing response went unnoticed, I will address myself.
The fact that God, like all other beings who will live in the future, knows my choice does not affect me here and now, since my choice, based on the assumption of "free choice," is influenced by my current knowledge and not by the future knowledge of any other being in space and time. As long as the choice is mine, and mine alone, then the knowledge relevant to the choice is my knowledge and I live in the present. The fact that in the future there will be future beings, including God, who know the choice does not matter, since they are not a factor in the decision.
If you like, the fact that there are other observers around me in space who see what I am deciding does not affect my decision, since the determining factor is not the observers, but me. And only me – at the point in time and space where I am. So what do other observers in space matter to me and what do observers on the future timeline matter to me? Both are unrelated to my decisions.
So who does God's knowledge of the future affect? God himself. God himself knows the future and acts in the present; is it any wonder that he is trapped in paradoxes? The Newcomb paradox is another example of paradoxes of going back in time, like the paradox about the man who goes back in time and kills his mother in her youth. The prophet comes from the future and must act in the present based on his future knowledge. But every action he takes will change the choices that people will make, and thus the future from which he came. In this situation, it is really difficult to decide. The only way out is to be deterministic and do exactly what you did.
But determinism on the part of God would determine that God is not the source of causes in the world and would force Him to not be the first cause in the chain. Therefore, the remaining conclusion is Rabbi Michi's claim that we must give up the assumption of knowledge of the future.
M.S.L.
YD, I didn't see anything in your amazing response other than a repetition of the paradox and the acceptance of the conclusion that we have a choice and he doesn't know. On the other hand, in the second response I see a repetition of the film theory (if I understood correctly). I said what I had to say about both of these things.
From God’s knowledge of the future, two different problems arise:
A. How does man have free choice when God knows what he is going to do?
B. How can God intervene in the world without falling into paradoxes of returning in time?
It is perhaps possible to link the two problems together – as a result of man’s free choice, God falls into paradoxes of returning in time. I understood them as separate problems.
I always answered the first problem with the film theory (which, according to what I see in the advanced posts, even the Rabbi does not completely rule out).
I did not think about the second problem until I read Newcomb’s paradox and understood it as a paradox of returning in time (the prophet returns from the future to the present). Following this, I came to the conclusion that if I assume God’s intervention in the past (giving the Torah and prophecy), I would probably have to deny him knowledge of the future in order to prevent him from entering into paradoxes of returning to time (and I see in the new posts that the Orach and the Shelah also believed this). Until then, the first question about knowledge and choice was also resolved.
I wouldn’t repeat the point, but it seems to me that the different wording of the two questions can clarify the discussion a bit.
He can avoid paradoxes of going back in time even voluntarily. He shouldn't be forbidden from doing so. Not everyone who goes back in time necessarily kills their grandfather.
Yes, of course. I just think that the formulation of the second question as a question about God and not about man's free choice helps to understand what Newcomb's innovation is.
Thank you very much.
Perhaps I am about to mix up the level of free choice with the topic in question here or to spill over into the fourth possibility. But perhaps the solution to the problem is that God knows what a finite creature will choose according to its nature (that is, He knows that, despite the natural sociological data, my character type, for example, I will choose to belong to the Drei movement), but at the same time He gives me the option (free choice) to go beyond my nature and choose a different path.
On the 12th of Iyar 5771
Lerza”yi – Shalom Rav,
It is possible that the explanation you offer is what is stated in the Rabbi”d about knowing the future ‘according to the Itztagnin’, that they predict the future according to the nature to which a person is inclined according to the time of his birth, a prediction that does not give absolute certainty, since the power of human choice has the power to overcome the natural tendency.
Best regards, Sh”sham Hanach”l
Indeed, this is the fourth option. See the next column.
That's what I was aiming for, only in a more radical way. God knows my mental structure best. He knows not only what parents and environment I was born into, but also my sensitivity, my mental qualities, my morals, my IQ, and so on. In such a way that He can predict, based on that knowledge, not only whether I will choose good or evil, but also what I will choose to eat tomorrow morning. In this way, in my opinion, free choice is possible, which is a complete overcoming of nature (like conversion or repentance from the most terrible places and the most serious offenses). Although the question of the average person's simple free choice remains in question here, it can be said that everyone, in principle, can make a "leap" of this kind.
In the 20th century, The ‘choice point’ rises and his good nature begins to suggest that he settle for a teaspoon of sugar. He succeeded in this too and became accustomed to one teaspoon of sugar – the ‘choice point’ rises, and he begins to think: Maybe it is possible without sugar at all.
And this is how the counting of the Omer is actually structured. After the ’drastic leap’ that was in the Exodus’at the exit from the gates of impurity to be with the ’people of God, then begins the gradual process of refinement and improvement step by step during the ’days of the counting of the Omer until the ’choice point’ rises to a level that can receive the Torah
With blessings, Sh’t
R”i, Sh”l, and the next column is good for us.
I don't understand.
1. If God has instilled in me a nature that sees a million dollars or ten shekels, and I don't have the human capacity to choose ten shekels, then I shouldn't be punished for it, because He has instilled this nature in me (seems deterministic). After all, if the nature of Hillel the Elder or Jacob our father were instilled in me, then I would act differently (necessarily, by virtue of the different emanations).
2. The bottom line is, if nature forces me 100 percent to act according to it, the fact that I say I have a choice is not considered a choice. For example, jumping into a fire when I am offered a happy life is indeed considered an option that has no natural impediment, but in the end no one will punish the rational chooser who chose life.
3. Can a person really change his nature according to the above explanation? If so, he will find that God did not foresee what he was doing in this exceptional case, and if he did, it is probably part of his nature.
The Rabbi called it a leap like this, and I did not understand, this leap is unknown to God? So what have we gained?!
4. The explanation I propose is the principle of plausibility.
One of the most famous is the parable of the wretched man's plane in the place of law, and the parable of the rabbi about the one who was killed in the world of yeshiva.
When there is one option for explanation, compared to several options, each of which requires an explanation in order to reach one result, then the one option is the most obvious, and the new thing is the evidence (as the prophet said).
And anyway, I don't understand why you all prefer to come up with several explanations that lead to one result, after all, one explanation is better and all the questions disappear!
And that is, if I see two parts in a car, and I understand how they work individually, and I can't understand how the two of them connect, but the car still drives even though I don't understand it. And the car expert tells me that there is an explanation for how they work together, but I can't understand it, so I'll study car mechanics for about 30 years. Should I conclude that because I don't understand the expert, he's wrong?!
The options you offer lead to the result that there is some kind of limitation in the ability of God, and for this you make a number of assumptions, isn't it easier to assume that we have a brain disorder that doesn't allow us to understand the next step?! (And if I knew it, I would..).
As I said, indeed, a shell the size of a purple, or a circular triangle the length of a liter, is certainly not at all the ability of the Almighty, but the reason for this is that the above are simply not a matter of ability, but nonsense. He can do anything that is a request and not nonsense, and sometimes our request has some nonsense in it, because the concept of ability is not a reality but a concept in our minds.
Omnipotence, is an understandable thing, choice is an understandable thing, the winning combination, is not understandable, okay, so what?! So let's assume that it is limited?! Why don't we assume that the limitation is with us?!..
If the human brain fails to explain Zeno's tortoise and toad paradox, or the dichotomy paradox.
Will we stop moving because of this?!
No!! We will continue and, as does every person who does not know how to explain the paradox, apparently our brain is limited, what is so complicated?!
P.S. It seems to me that the Rabbi did not answer that, but rather answered that in a fool's mind things don't work out, and they certainly constitute a contradiction, but I didn't understand, if things don't work out for a fool, does that mean that the fool's car doesn't drive?!
No! There is the plausible option that he is simply a fool, and the limitation is in his mind, and in any case what he understands is a joke, and what doesn't hurt the heart, but he should not draw conclusions like a fool. And if he does, then he has proven to us that he is indeed a perfect fool.
That's it.
God does not have knowledge in the sense of the Son of Man, but He has other knowledge, and like the Son of Man, this knowledge provides Him with information about the future, but it does not contradict our choice.
We do not construct His knowledge, and therefore we do not construct how it does not contradict our choice in the future.
This is the intention of the Rambam.
[You assume that if He has knowledge like the Son of Man, that is, the information, it is necessarily contradictory in relation to our choice, but it can be said that there is a third knowledge, the knowledge of God that we do not understand, and it provides Him with information about our choice, and God does not contradict our choice.
A thing that we do not have access to (the knowledge of God) does not allow us to consider it contradictory with our choice because we do not understand the knowledge of God. Although we know that it gives him knowledge of the future
It seems to me that this is a kind of marriage of the two opinions that you presented at the beginning -“The concept of 'knowledge' as it appears in relation to him is not understandable to us, and in any case cannot establish a difficulty in relation to our free will. 2. Some would go so far as to say that God is above logic, and therefore they are not at all bothered by logical contradictions in our concepts of God.”
Why is this claim incorrect?
She is fine, just not a claim. I ask whether he has information or not? That's all. Yes, no question.
He has no information (in the sense that we know) but he knows.
How is that possible? I don't know.
{But the picture that the Rambam describes in the Bible (Chapters 51-6 and so on) describes how difficult it is to understand God, and how much less a person understands, the closer he is to the truth (Pan 9)
The person who attributes concepts to God and says that God is wise does not understand God at all, but only says God and is mistakenly thinking about something else that does not correspond to the true concept, for example, Chapter 6-
The parable of this is to a person who heard the name of the elephant, and knew that it was a living being, and asked to know its form and truth. And the wrong one said to him – Or the deceiver: He is a living being with one leg and three wings, dwelling in the depths of the sea, his body transparent, and having a broad face like a human face and its shape and form, and speaking like a human, and sometimes flying in the air and sometimes swimming like a fish.
I am not saying that this one painted the elephant differently from what it is, nor that he does not grasp the elephant well, 30 but I am saying that this thing that he imagined to himself by the title is a false invention.
Therefore it is found that he is not in reality, and thus he lives not in animals, and can not in ability, and knows not in knowledge.
Doesn't this solve the problem? Sorry for the length.
Here we have crossed, as was clear to me beforehand, into the realms of nonsense. I have nothing to say about something that is not an argument and that you yourself do not understand what you are saying. So what do you want me to comment on?
I understand the claim:
He has no information (in the sense that we understand the concept of information) but he knows and therefore there is no contradiction _
This is a claim (you wrote that it is not a claim)
I do not understand how he knows without information (in the sense that we know) but that is how it is supposed to be we cannot understand the ’. As the Maimonides explains in the book of ”N
”Therefore it is found that he is not in reality, and thus lives not in animals and can not in ability, and knows not in knowledge “(Chapter 157)
It is clear to me that this is the intention of the Maimonides in the Mishnah Torah and not as you are trying to relate to it (in your words he said really stupidly that we do not know how the information comes if and as you wrote it is clear that this does not begin to answer)
Pinchas.
The rabbi wrote at the beginning of his remarks: “In this column I will discuss the third possibility, which is the trickiest of all. I will say in advance that I tend not to accept it, but I am always accompanied by a shadow of doubt regarding the arguments against it.”
And if he means the third possibility, that is, to your kind of claim. We little ones cannot understand, and all the patterns in our minds that create logical contradictions in us, are only in our little minds.
So the rabbi is also accompanied by a shadow of doubt on the matter, but he expects things to be said in their own name, and that is perhaps what he means, by the nonsense in your words.
From his point of view, quoting Rambam without understanding the meaning means gibberish that cannot be responded to.
But I think that the entirety of your remarks means that our intentions are similar, and that is why the rabbi wrote that he is inclined to accept them.
By the way, if the rabbi has an option in his toolbox to explain the paradox to us, then it is definitely better to use them and not go into the realms of probability.
But if he does not have such tools, and in any case what is more evident is simplicity, and for this we need to examine what the rabbi has to offer in the next column, and examine what is more evident in the simplest form of the options.
Or alternatively, in which option do we lower the ability of the giver of our toolbox, so that we can explain things according to the limited toolbox he gave us. And in which option, do we throw up our hands and say okay, we lack tools in the toolbox. It seems that the side to say that we lack tools is more evident.
Correction.
And this is what the Rabbi wrote, accompanied by a shadow of doubt, regarding the arguments against it.
Thank you Tam.
I definitely think this is the direction and I am not quoting the Maimonides just to clarify that he understood that this is a logical claim that he knows and not in knowledge and as such should be attributed to him in my opinion too
And I tried to formulate an answer to Miki's question “Does he have information or not”? Due to the fact that we do not understand the Almighty. A short and concise answer.
And you can formulate it this way: He does not have information (in the sense that we understand the concept of information) but he knows.
Tam, do you agree?
Miki, in any case, it is clear that Maimonides does not intend it as you attributed it to him as I wrote above.
And I will end with a quote from Leibowitz “The purposeful knowledge is to recognize the one attribute that there is a God, and that is that he is God, and every additional word about him only detracts.” It's a shame that we don't understand more than that.
Pinchas.
The question is what seems more obvious to us, beyond the toolbox we have, and not what others think, as long as they have not addressed the issue of probability, but the logical toolbox at their disposal, no matter how smart they may be.
As for the substance of the argument, I definitely agree.
In my opinion, the definition “he has no information in what we define as information” is not the most correct, just as it is not correct to say that he does not have the ability to create a table with a black cup. The concept of cannot is not a concept of ability, not with us either, and ignorance is not an ability, but an inability, and the entire concept of inability is only a limitation of the brothers who can. And in any case, with the possessor of all abilities and powers, there is no concept of inability or ignorance, just as he does not have the concept of a square circle. And in any case, the definition is “he has all the information, we just need to know how to define the information correctly”. He simply does not understand what we want from him.
If, for example, you say that he has no information on the way of their signing, that would be true, but it would be more correct to express it, he has all the information, just define correctly what you want.
Have a wonderful day Pinchas, just a recommendation, instead of Leibowitz, I would recommend that you quote the sages who preceded him both in years and in wisdom.
You started with Rambam and I will end with Rambam.
In the book of the perplexed (15:21), on the verse (Genesis 28:12): “And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it”, on a ladder set on the earth and its top reaching to heaven, for the divine wisdom that ascends to the top of the ladder has a great introduction to the political wisdom that descends to the bottom.
And if in one part of these two the branches were so numerous that it was impossible to encompass them with human inspection, how much more so in both of them together, being entangled and clinging to each other, “heaven to the top and earth to the bottom”.
We see only the tip of the iceberg!
That's not what I wrote in Rambam, and I'll explain my understanding of his words in the next column. I suggest we stop here. This isn't going anywhere.
(Walking carefully because a thick pillar of cloud is ahead of me in everything that concerns free choice and I can't find my nose and mustache).
A. Yehudit Ronen's argument –
1. If I understand correctly, her argument works fine even if B=A. Doesn't it?
2. If I understand correctly the meaning with the possible worlds (which seems like the only meaning of the matter) then the whole sting is gone. You took the sting out in the column (so as to understand the problem), but then you added that it is quite confusing. I am confused by not understanding the remaining confusion.
In this world it is known that A but it is not necessary that A (because there is or could be another world in which A is not).
In this world God knows that I will do A and therefore I will necessarily ‘choose’ To do A, but it is not necessary (because there exists or could exist another world in which G-d knows that I will not do A and there I will necessarily ‘choose’ not to do A).
What do we gain here? In this world I must do A, and what do we gain from the existence of another world in which I must not do A (and there G-d knows that I will not do A)? Of course, according to this there is no problem even if A=B.
B. From the extreme brevity here I was unable to understand how it is possible to both assume free choice, and also disagree with Lukashevich, and also to cancel the logical determinism argument. I have not read the Sciences of Freedom, is there a broader explanation there? Maybe in the fourth book of Talmudic Logic?
Cardigan.
I also did not understand the ants' argument against Lukashevich. After all, he was talking about what has not yet happened, which is in a sense unknown, and the word true or false is not true for him, although the ants currently exist, and true or false are the only options available to define the truth of the number. Not knowing in this case certainly does not change the truth of the number.
Regarding A, whose knowledge forces me to choose it, it is of course our assumption according to the toolbox given to us to examine what knowledge is. But if we lack another tool to examine the concept of his knowledge, and in any case there is a situation in which our conclusion is wrong.
I've lost you, and I'm also overwhelmed here. It's hard for me to get into the subject any further. In the next column I'll present some of my own experiences (as I've also written here), and some of them probably fit what you wrote here.
If knowledge of God implies that there is only one future.
And free choice implies that there is more than one future.
Then the contradiction immediately follows.
The question is how can humans know what God knows or does not know.
The answer to that is also simple. They cannot know.
From this it follows that this entire discussion is at a standstill.
Another impudent attempt by humans to try to recreate the psychology of God that they in their impudence decided He has.
But what does it matter. The main thing is the chatter. That the Midrash is not the main thing, but the chatter.
Not directly related to the column, but stemmed from it –
Several friends sat down and discussed the above question, the conversation turned into a dispute over the chapter “Precedent in Halacha Ruling” in the book, and then we realized that we don't know how to clearly define what distinguishes the Orthodox approach from the Conservative and Reform approaches.
Do you have a column where you state the differences?
Where you define the lines that delimit each approach, giving rules of thumb where to place proposalsperceptionsetc’?
There is no sharp difference between Orthodox and Conservatives. Reforms do not abrogate halacha because they have no halacha. And how does that relate to this column?
Gentlemen, everyone is constantly engaged in resolving the contradiction, and no one talks about the fundamental injustice of forcing free will on us without our having freely chosen it in the first place. We are simply stuck with free will, whether we like it or not. If God had asked me first, I am not at all sure that I would want to have free will. What is the gain? A reward for choosing good? That is all well and good, but in practice, every day a thorny sin lurks, and no matter how hard I try, I cannot close the door on it. On a rough average, most of us have eaten it precisely because of this compulsion. But the problem is twofold. Even if God gave me a choice right now whether to get rid of free will, I would not be able to do it. After all, if I give it up, every bad deed I do in the future will be a sin by definition, although not a sin of the moment of the act itself (since at the time of the act I no longer have free will), but a sin of now, of the moment when I gave up my free will on the very idea of free will. I constantly feel that God has put me in a catch-22, I am a sinner because I have free will, and if I give it up, that in itself is a very great sin!!! So God gave us free will without asking us, and now He sees us as responsible for our actions, and we have to abide by an agreement we did not sign. The angels and the stars and the spheres, on the other hand, won the cosmic lottery, and this is made clear in the Rambam”s Laws of the Foundations of the Torah: “And all these forms live and know the Creator, and they will know Him with great knowledge to the utmost. Every form and shape according to its virtue, not according to its size… And all the stars and the wheels, all have souls and minds and intellect. And they live and stand and know the One who said and created the world, each one according to his greatness and according to his dignity, praising and glorifying his Creator like the angels. And as they know the Holy One, blessed be He, so they know themselves and the angels above them. Anyone who is not in this exalted group has a completely justified complaint against Heaven. Personally, I feel really cheated. After all, the average person has quite a chance of going to hell, and someone asked me if I even want to participate in a game with a negative expected return???
I recommend Raymond Smolyan's dialogue that deals with exactly this: Is God a Taoist? It appears in his book “The Silence of the Tao”. Although I don't agree with his approach, it is certainly entertaining.
Delight! First result on Google, adding here to magnify Torah and magnify:
https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
On the 13th of Iyar 5772
When one reaches goodness and truth through doubt and experience, the consciousness of goodness is clearer and more internalized in the soul. The doubt is excruciating, but one transcends it.
With blessings, Sh.
1. According to the method of the Lord who decided not to know, then our knowledge of the Creator's knowledge is necessary knowledge and not contingent, so there is no reality that He did not know, just as He cannot create a stone that cannot be lifted or a square triangle
2. According to the method of R’ Hasdai, the Creator's knowledge only concerns actions - how is it possible that our thoughts do not affect actions?!?!
1. Why is it necessary? Here, for example, I think he doesn't know.
2. This is his claim, that our attitude towards actions is passive (epiphenomena). I agree that this is a problematic method.
1. There is a second side. But the side that He does know is a necessary side. What we know about God is necessary because it is impossible to imagine a world in which it does not exist. And in more detail - where does the information about God's knowledge come from? From absolute certainty, and this is a necessary thing.
The side that has no knowledge because knowledge is not derived from its perfection [because it does not exist], the side that has it because it is derived from its perfection, and its perfection is necessary.
From the very beginning, there was someone who knew what God knows. And here it seems there are followers of his.
To say that God knows another knowledge is not an argument, but it is a statement that unravels the body of the question in my opinion, because we attribute to God an attribute of time and say that He “knew in advance what I was going to choose”; so where is the choice?
And this is where the explanation comes in and says “there is no before and there is no after, this whole concept is futile. Yes, we can assume that God knows everything by virtue of His authority as God…” but His knowledge cannot be tied to time. This is not an explanation, it is a solution to the question.
Another thing I haven’t understood yet, how is certain knowledge related to lack of choice? To say that I didn’t choose something means that someone else chose for me or made me choose and I am just a puppet on strings.
But certain knowledge does not contradict the fact that I made the choice for myself regardless of the one who knew. If, for example, every time I was faced with two options to choose between two, either a red or a green object, each time I chose red (let's say this happened a million times so there's no doubt what I'll choose next time) but what, I didn't notice this due to my strange tendency, but each time I reconsidered and finally decided to choose red. However, someone from the outside examined this point in me and knew in advance that this was what I was going to choose, did his certain knowledge contradict the fact that I ultimately chose the particular object?
That's the point, he can't know in advance that you might choose differently. You're implicitly assuming determinism. You're talking about the film theory discussed in the column.
Joseph- 1. You are confusing [like everyone else], the question is not ‘how did the information of the future reach God’, which is correct, but how does the information of the future exist. Think about Newcomb's paradox carefully [with the addition of the transparent boxes], it completely clarifies the contradiction
2. Of course they did not choose for me. But, if it were clear that I love red - I really did not ‘choose. Explanation- A”not to punish me for an act that I will certainly do, even if I was not ‘forced’ to do so, if someone sins and cannot overcome it even if he sinned willingly, due to the necessity of circumstances, it is not a sin that will be punished [from the side of punishment, not from the side of deterrence].
Noor.
1. This is exactly what I am saying that I do not know how the information about the future exists, even if it is because it is impossible to know.
Rabbi Michi said that this is not an argument and therefore he does not answer it and I want to say that this is not intended to be an argument, but the one who makes it difficult where the choice is, assumes the assumption that knowledge means knowing before the act is committed and to this I say that this is an unfounded assumption when we attribute knowledge to God.
To this he replied that if so it is not knowledge and the one who speaks of knowledge has not said anything.
But we can say that we should not call this knowledge, we should call it “mango” it does not matter, the idea that nothing is hidden from God, how this happens I have no idea and I do not think it needs to be explained.
2. The second paragraph depends on the first, since the knowledge does not contradict the choice (because I do not know what that knowledge is) it can still be assumed that I am the one who chose and nothing was clear about it.
1. ”The knowledge of the future” is a paradox, even if you call it a mango if you meant this meaning
So you believe that God can create a triangle without sides [because we have no understanding of this]???
I agree with you that if there was a clear tradition about the knowledge I would believe as you say, but from the explanation it seems a paradox.
2. You are right. The case of Pharaoh who hardened his heart was an exceptional case, and it is also controversial. But it is not the one under discussion.
There is a clear and understandable tradition that he is omnipotent and nothing is hidden from his eyes. I don't understand why it requires understanding the exact definition of how this happens? I certainly don't pretend to analyze how his attributes work, in my opinion that is where the paradox lies, in this failed attempt.
What would happen if we replaced the two participants in the Newcomb paradox with two computers: an all-knowing computer and a computer with a function that tries to obtain the highest sum? If I'm not mistaken, the paradox would remain intact. And since no one imagines that a computer has free choice - there must necessarily be another solution to the paradox.
I once wrote to you in response to my proposal and you didn't agree with me. I didn't really understand why, because you used mathematical terms that I barely know what they mean. But even if you don't agree with the solution I proposed, my question about the computer-chooser still stands and another solution needs to be found. Here is the link:
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%d7%a9%d7%90%d7%9c%d7%95%d7%aa-%d7%a2%d7%9c-%d7%9e%d7%93%d7%a2%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%97%d7%95%d7%a4%d7%a9
You assume that a deterministic device can know everything that will happen in the future. But there is no such device. Because the future is not calculable. I am talking about seeing the future, not calculating what will happen in it. Therefore, this is a property that God or someone who receives information from him has. Therefore, it is better to formulate the question about a human (or divine) prophet and a computer that chooses.
Except that the computer is a deterministic creature and it will do exactly what its programmer tells it to do (through the software). Therefore, there is no problem. I can also be such a prophet: I will read the software and know exactly what it will do. I will also know what it will do if I fill the box and if I do not fill it. I will know this through calculation, not through seeing the future. Therefore, the question is again dropped. And if the programmer allows himself to interfere with the operation of the computer, we are back to a human, not a mechanical, voter.
Therefore, in my opinion, this question can only be presented about two non-deterministic creatures.
I didn't understand why the question didn't exist when the voter was a computer. The logic of a human in a deterministic world and the logic of the computer program are supposed to be the same. Just as the prophet can read the program, he can (theoretically, not practically) calculate the decision that will be made in the mind of a person-lacking-their-capacity-for-free-choice, because the laws of physics are deterministic, as you often explain.
The program was written in advance, but its execution is conditional on what the prophet put in the boxes: the software will decide to take both boxes, and then it will realize that this will cause(?) the prophet to leave the closed box empty, so it will change its decision and prefer to take only the closed box, and then it will realize that in such a situation it is more profitable to take both, and so on. The logic of the program is supposed to be the same as human logic, and therefore it is supposed to fall into the same dead end of an infinite loop that a deterministic person would fall into.
You answered yourself. In a deterministic person, it is indeed the same. But in a non-deterministic person, there is no software that determines what he will do, and therefore there is no way to read it to know what he will do. You have to look into the future (if that is possible).
The software is written in advance, but I can put input into it and know what will come out. I will check what will come out when I put a million there or leave it blank, and then I will know everything that will happen.
But the software will not output anything. It will get stuck in an infinite loop. The software “knows” that the question of what the prophet will put in the box depends on the question of which box it decides to take, and therefore every time the software makes a decision it will have to suddenly change the information (what the prophet put in the box) and recalculate. It will never finish.
Or more simply, in the version with the glass box. I instruct the software that in case the glass box is empty – it should take only that one, and in case the glass box contains a million dollars – it should take both boxes. Thus in any case the software will disrupt the prophet's plot. We have reached the same paradox, and free choice will not be useful here (because it does not exist for a computer).
I think you are making assumptions about the software that undermine the question.
The voter's software knows that the prophet knows in advance what it will do. Therefore, it will take what it is expected to take, unless it has a choice to do otherwise. That is what will happen, unless you introduce a programmer here who instructs it to do the opposite, but then you have already indirectly introduced either an assumption of choice and/or the assumption that there is no software that knows in advance what I will do. Either way, the problem is a bit confusing in my opinion.
But I really am not entirely sure, and the matter confuses me a bit (I apologize that I do not have time to deal with this seriously right now. The workload here is terrible). In any case, I will disclaim this argument at the end of the next column.
This is about determinism.
The Rabbi spoke about the contradiction between knowledge and choice.
Newcomb is not a paradox at all, but a mixture of all sorts of examples from different planes.
It is not clear what the state of existence of such a prophet is. After all, he could have predicted what he was going to predict and saved himself all the trouble of putting money in a box and giving the greedy person the money immediately without making him miserable. The fact that he is required to make him miserable casts doubt on his ability to accurately predict.
The existence of such a prophet means that the halting problem can be solved. Which is not possible.
It is not described what happens in the case where the miserable person, out of frustration, decides to flip a quantum coin.
How from such a confused story full of contradictions and ambiguities one can draw any conclusions about anything is not at all clear to me.
I think there is a serious flaw in the Newcomb Paradox:
There is no situation in which if I choose box A, it will have $1,000,000 in it and if I choose two, it will be empty!!!!!
If the boxes are transparent, of course there is no such situation.
The prophet can know, but there is no such reality!
True.
The confusion and contradiction in the presentation of the problem can be further emphasized.
It was possible to make a paradox about a case in which the prophet who predicted the future revealed his prophecy to the unfortunate. And the unfortunate can do the opposite of the prophecy. Then it turns out that the prophet is unfortunate. And the one who wrote it as a paradox is also unfortunate.
All kinds of unfortunate people are drawn to problems of this kind who try with all their might to deny reality according to common sense in order to justify all kinds of passions.
What P does not say, Q is straight and crooked;
Q makes P come out as a fool.
For if P is right - it comes out as a lie;
And if she lies - it is true!
Such an elegant paradox comes out,
Simple because of P, the process is found.
If you assume that P is true - you are confused;
In the thicket of the Yokshim you hid - you were trapped!
So how do we get out of such a complicated predicament?
You don't need me to tell; you can guess for yourself.
The inevitable conclusion is that the world is a waste,
A legendary creature like P - does not exist.
http://www.new.tzura.co.il/t/art/10920
The doctrine of the tips is slandered and there is no injustice in the palm,
All who see it will be refined by the use of the dome.
The tongue of men is a pedestal at its feet,
She chops down idle trees with the swing of the axe:
“Speak rightly or forever be silent”.
For what did she ask of men?
Let them not build towers with contradictions at their foundation.
If the root is rotten, what good is camouflage?
He who sows a storm will not reap his harvest.
They said she is a scoundrel, they said she is violent
They said she is a carpet to hide the terror.
And they answered her falsely – on their faces the gloom –
For there is none like her, like a compassionate mother!
A lamp for our heads, a map in the wilderness
A shield for our arms in the day of war.
No longer will we shelter in a cardboard apartment
We will not ride on a donkey, on a twisted snake.
Because the shaft is iron, its foundations are concrete
In it a battalion will run, even a small boy.
The Law of Tips – Cheer, you sons have gathered
From the ruins of contradiction have been rescued.
And there are no paradoxes and no problems
And peace rests in the hearts of people
And the sun shines through the clouds
And the face of Russell shone on our daughters, the Torah.
And I am a cardigan for your songs, a guitar
From my throat I will give you the string in gratitude.
And if you wonder what kind of excavation this is,
Forgive me, for there is no restraint to the wind when it blows.
Applause, Chen Chen, to Mr. Restore my soul again (after the song above). A pleasure.
Cardigan
Can you explain?
And Chan Lamar.
Posek,
The truth is that the connection is a bit loose. The halting problem exploits a paradox of self-instruction (in a certain sense) to prove that a certain program does not exist. The theory of tips (or type-types, but I got used to the name tips because that is how I first encountered it in the book Two Carts) constructs objects in a hierarchical way that prevents the possibility of self-instruction. A certain criticism of the theory of tips is that it does not really solve anything but only prohibits talking about it, but the “real” problem still exists. I do not think this criticism is convincing, because the theory does not “prohibit” Nothing and sweeps a real problem under the rug, but rather directs the person not to use unsafe concepts that contain hidden contradictions (like the book that tells those who do not tell themselves. There simply is no such book, or the claim is not defined), and there is “really” no ”real problem”. And what is nicer and kinder than helping a person (and especially a mathematician) walk on safe ground? There is also another criticism that the Torah also throws out some babies with the bathwater, since there is a perfectly normal self-teaching (for example, the set of all sets with more than 4 members, it also contains itself, and there does not seem to be a problem with that).
I took advantage of the poem you brought to politely ask for a post on the matter at some point, to know and to seek wisdom and calculation.
Hey typists 🙂
I already thought there was a theory of tips for commenters on forums that I don't know.
All these problems are closely related to the sentence that says it is a false sentence
The thing is that in language you can say anything. Even sentences that contain contradictions. But it's just words. The question is whether things are coherent. And that's what we're trying to figure out what is coherent and what is not. Logically.
If creating a group in a sentence leads to something incoherent, it follows that it is not possible to create groups in a sentence. And we need to find out what mechanism does allow us to create groups safely without worrying about coherence every time.
Gam
[Later, when I studied set theory, it was easily accepted that one should construct in a careful axiomatic manner, and when I came to computability, I was surprised to see that the halting problem actually proves something out of such a paradox, and there is no self-instruction that can be blocked because the machine and its coding are two completely different things. I especially appreciate this after Professor's "The Cat Whose Name Is Not There." Aharoni (whom I know with great gratitude because from his words and writings I learned to understand mathematics intuitively. For example, the fundamental theorem of calculus seemed to me a wonderful miracle, and he explained it in such an intuitive way that you could feel it with your hands. Cayley's theorem on groups also became firmly established in my mind only after Aharoni's explanation. And there were many more that I can't count right now. I also learned combinatorics from a student of his, and I felt in a certain way that his spirit was passing through there)]
Thank you. A refreshing breath of wind on a tired soul.
🙂
The face is cardigan.
Also send notes…
On the second day of Pesach, 5752
Ramada, a great rabbi,
Peshita, according to the Rabbi, one cannot learn from the knowledge of the Creator, who is not limited in time and place, about human knowledge. What will happen in the future does not yet exist in the present, and therefore man, who is limited in time and place, cannot know it. And only the Creator, who is not subject to the limitations of time, can know the future.
Even a prophet cannot, by his human nature, foresee the future unless he has received this knowledge from God. And therefore the example that a person is a true prophet is that he can tell the future, which cannot be by his human nature, and therefore the arrival of such information to a person proves that he received it from God.
With blessings, Shalom,
In the 25th of Iyar 5721
The method of the author of the Book of Life, who chooses not to know the future choice of man, must be understood according to what is explained in the second introduction to the Maharal of the Might of God, that we have no perception or ability to define the attributes of God. What we define as God's knowledge is His action, His relation to man's action, and
Based on this foundation, it will be understood that with regard to a divine action, there is room for His choice not to perform the act of knowledge, that is: not to relate to man's future choice so as not to be bound in advance.
With blessings, Sh”tz
This distinction that all our talk about divine knowledge is only about the action and not about the attribute, is explained in the Zohar, that the Creator Himself is the one who understands and comprehends everything. When we talk about divine wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, we are talking about the ways in which God leads His world, and even in them we have no understanding of the wise or the wise.
The concept that divine knowledge is His action in the world, His relation to man and his actions, also emerges well in the simplest of scriptures, such as ‘He knows the days of the unborn’, what is man and his knowledge, a human being and He considers him’, knowledge is the calculations.
And
Paragraph 3, line 2
… In Petah Eliyahu’ Shabs’ Zohar, ..
Paragraph 4, line 3
… Knowledge is consideration.
I wanted to ask:
1. Does the column actually claim that knowing the future requires reverse causality?
2. Why is there no logical fallacy in reverse causality?
After all, if A in the future is a cause of B in the present (let's say that A is a necessary and sufficient condition for B), it is not difficult to find an example in which B is a necessary and sufficient condition for the negation of A.
For example: I predict and know now what a certain person will do when he reaches an intersection tomorrow. I will block the road that I know he will choose.
So a certain person's choice of the right (A) is a necessary and sufficient condition for B, but B is a necessary and sufficient condition for the negation of A (I will block the road in a way that is impassable)
Isn't this a fallacy at the logical level that is sufficient to rule out reverse causality regardless of the theory of relativity, etc.?
,
The theory of relativity merely formulates this principle itself more precisely. The rotator cannot be outside the light cone of the cause (and not exactly after it in time). But this is a minor detail and not important to the actual discussion.
I will restate my question from earlier:
I intend to ask why knowing the future in itself is not a logical fallacy, regardless of the contradiction between knowledge and choice.
In other words, let's say there is no choice. Is there no problem then?
After all, if information about the future exists, then it can be used to influence the future and even negate that event in the future.
As I asked earlier, it can be easily drawn that A (the event in the future) is a necessary and sufficient condition for the negation of A (by reverse causality).
Why doesn't this rule out the existence of information about the future (which requires reverse causality, since it is possible to act on this information so that it can be a cause of events in the past)?
Clear wording is always helpful. Note that in this wording you will see why you are wrong.
In a world without choice, it is not necessary that if I know something about the future I can change it. Only freedom of choice establishes my ability to do so. Therefore the logical loop is only because of the assumption of free choice.
You are talking about the grandfather killing paradox, and I have also dealt with it here before (see column 33).
Hello Rabbi,
I didn't understand the parallel between the prophet in the Newcomb paradox and God.
The prophet in the paradox performs an action based on his knowledge of the future. How do we know that God is performing an action now based on my future behavior?
("To the voice of the youth who is there" is a statement that God refrains from changing the present because of a future action)
If the prophet only knows what I will choose and does not act after knowing it, there is no paradox here
I didn't say that the 'He' does an action. It's enough that he can do it.
According to your answer, it is enough that He can deny me free choice to contradict the fact that I have it in any other case.
This contradicts what you say that there are cases where God can deny free choice and yet you claim that there is free choice.
Strange question. This not only contradicts what I say elsewhere but is just nonsense on its own. Just because I can steal money from you means you have no money?!
My argument is not that he can deny me the choice. My argument is that if he has the information he can play the prophet game with me and then it enters a logical loop (because the prophet game is not possible). This is proof by negation that he does not have the information.
True, but I will try to explain myself better:
1. The paradox assumes that the prophet has the ability to know the future and also act accordingly
[2. If the prophet knows but does not act, there is no paradox]
3. Then the paradox proves by negation that acting based on future information detracts from the free choice on which the action was based
4. From this it can be proven that if God *acts* in the past based on a future choice, he violates free choice, but there is no proof that if He *knows* it violates future choice.
5. The rabbi answered me, "I did not say that God does an action. It is enough that He can do it."
6. We agree that every time He does an action, He negates the choice, but in cases where He did not do an action, how is it that He could do an action that still negates free choice?
7. Or in conclusion, – It's true that if he had the information he could play the prophet game with me, but even without the information he could deny me my free choice. The fact that he has the information about the future doesn't contribute anything to him. Only the action.
I'll come back and finish with this. Your assumption 2 is wrong. Even if it doesn't work, there is a paradox, because the very ability to enter the loop indicates that there is a problem with the assumptions. Even if someone doesn't look again at the claim “This sentence is false”, it is still a paradoxical sentence.
The ability to enter the loop stems from the assumption that he can act which assumes the desired.
Thanks anyway for the discussion I will meet you with God's help in reality and stand by the righteousness of my claim
The midrash that Rashi cites at the end of Genesis shows that the sages believed that the Creator knows everything in advance?
” And he was grieved in his heart – he mourned over the loss of the work of his hands, just as (Shabbat 19) the king grieved over his son. And this I wrote for the answer of the species. One Epicurus asked Rabbi Yehoshua ben Korcha, “Do you not acknowledge that the Holy One sees the unborn?” He said to him, “Yes, he said to him, but is it not written?” And he was grieved in his heart. He said to him, “A son has been born to you, a male child, from your days.” He said to him, “Yes, he said to him, and what have you done?” He said to him, “I rejoiced and made everyone rejoice.” And you would not have known that he was destined to die. He said to him, “In a time of mourning, in a time of mourning, in a time of mourning, in a time of mourning, in a time of mourning.” The Holy One told him this, even though it was clear to him that they would end up sinning and perishing, He did not refrain from creating them (and He created them) for the sake of the righteous who would come to stand among them.
Maybe so. Unless he thinks he should have known this specific information and not necessarily everything.
But apparently this contradicts Rashi in Sota 2, that the Creator does not know whether he will be righteous or wicked.
Contradictions in Rashi are not a problem. He is a local commentator and perhaps in his opinion there is a difference between the issues.
Another note
Did you notice that the sages of the Kabbalah went with the trick option?
For example, in the book of the first Adam, Rabbi Yehuda bar Simon said: Until Adam the first is cast into a golem before Him who said and made the world, He showed him: Generation after generation and its teachers, generation after generation and its sages, generation after generation and its scribes, generation after generation and its leaders. As it is said (there) Your eyes have seen the golem, your eyes have seen the golem, they are already written on the book of Adam the first. Alas, this is the book of the history of Adam.
And such as Minachot 29:
“Mr. Rav Yehuda said, Rav, when Moses ascended to heaven, they found the Holy One sitting and tying crowns to letters. He said before him, Rabshat, who is holding you back? He said to him, There is a man who is destined to be at the end of several generations, and his name is Akiva ben Yosef, who is destined to teach about every thorn and thorn, every thorn of the laws. He said before him, Rabshat, show him to me. He said to him, Go back. He went and sat down at the end of eight lines and did not know what they said. He was very strong. When he reached one thing, his disciples said to him, Rabbi, where are you going? He said to them, The law of Moses from Sinai. His mind settled.
He returned and came before the Holy One, the Holy One, and said before him, Master of the Universe, you have such a man and you give Torah by me. He said to him, Be silent. Thus it occurred to me. He said before him, Master of the Universe, show me His Torah, show me His reward. He said to him, Go back. [Backwards] He turned back and saw that his flesh was weighed down with flour. He said before him, "Ravsha'ul, this is Torah and this is the reward of God. Be silent, this is what came to mind."