Questions about the fifth notebook and more
peace,
I read the fifth notebook, and I was quite surprised by a few points:
A. Personally, it is easy for me to imagine a situation in which North Korea is ruled by an education system that teaches about an amazing event that all of their ancestors were part of. After generations, this will become a clear and comprehensive tradition. It is true that there are details regarding the Torah that we would expect to be written differently, but overall – during a monarchical rule, frequented by religious revolutions, it is certainly possible to plant various myths. For many years I had difficulty identifying with the Khazarian proof.
On a psychological level, part of the problem may be that we don’t perceive this as a tradition from our fathers and mothers who heard it from their parents, but rather that we learned that this is what is written in the Torah, and our parents also learned it in school. But that doesn’t really change the validity of the argument.
B. You referred to the events of the Jewish people as evidence that there is something unique here. This particularly surprised me. You often write that there is no providence, and that the events of the Jewish people are completely natural. So is the Holocaust, and so is the establishment of the state. On the other hand – you seem to greatly reduce the difference between Gentile and Jew, and do not accept ‘divine essences’ and the like in this area, and suddenly the number of Nobel Prize winners is evidence of Israel’s virtue and acceptance of the Torah! This aspect is intensified if you suddenly explain the establishment of the state as stemming from Israel’s virtue – without providence!?
C. One point entirely – in one of the points on the site, you wrote that from a religious point of view, the Haredi society does not hold up and the religious-national one does. I would appreciate details or references to another place where you discussed this. It is clear that the social frameworks are a very significant anchor in the Haredi public, and on the other hand – to develop a sin of lying down: it is not clear how long they will be able to cope with modernity in this way. But overall, the percentage of leaving is small, people are intact in their path and in their faith (even if you see this as a failure, because they did not examine their faith, and since their beliefs are superficial and wrong).
In contrast, in the national-religious community, there are almost no frameworks and observance of the mitzvot stems from personal identification. But the success in passing on the Torah to the next generation is not at all satisfactory. I would love to hear more about your position on the subject.
Thank you very much!
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Hello.
A. You can imagine anything. The question is plausibility. I don’t know of a totalitarian ruler in our history who forcibly instilled such traditions. Add to that the surrounding considerations ((I also don’t see anything particularly strong in the Khazarian’s argument).
on. Here, there is already a misunderstanding of the matter. The uniqueness of our history does not necessarily stem from the providence of God, but from the Torah that we have adopted and to which we are committed. This is what has caused our survival and our unique character, and not necessarily divine providence.
third. It’s hard for me to elaborate here (it requires a connection). I’ve written about this here on the site in several places. Two that come to mind right now (I think there are a few more):
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%99%D7%94%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%94/
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%A9%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8-21/
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Asks:
A. I still don’t understand the meaning of the realization of the ‘vision of the prophets’, if we are talking about cultural traits that stemmed from the Torah. The power of the prophets lies, among other things, in seeing the future. Apparently, they were certain that the prophecy would come true. A rather dubious reliance on traits that the Torah instilled in those who abandon it does not seem like a reliable basis for prophecy.
Therefore, in my opinion, if you recognize in the current reality a certain prophetic fulfillment, you must conclude that the hand of God is involved in it, or at the very least an unambiguous spiritual essence implanted in the people (as distinct from cultural traits).
Of course, there is the possibility that you did not mean this expression in its precise sense, but only the miraculous phenomenon of the return of the people of Israel to their land.
In any case, as an experienced book editor, I would recommend that you find more convincing wording for this section in Notebook 5. You are entering corners that lead in directions other than your own.
on. I am not convinced that there is a fundamental gap between the qualities that the Torah instilled in us (even after we abandoned it generations ago) – whether these lead to the wonderful uniqueness of the Jewish people and their extraordinary history, to the virtue of Israel – whether it means that the giving of the Torah left us with an identity imprint of a connection to the Torah, from which we cannot escape.
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Rabbi:
A. I did not talk there about the realization of the vision of the prophets. That is a different discussion. There I only brought up the very unique phenomenon of the people returning to their land. Regarding the realization of the vision of the prophets, that is a discussion that I intentionally did not enter into because it raises several difficulties.
on. Neither do I. If that’s what you call the virtue of Israel, I have no problem with it. My book will explain.
Regarding the recommendations, I wrote them down and will check them out. thanks.
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Asks:
Just to close the ‘Vision of the Prophets’ corner, let me quote two quotes from your words.
Quote from the author: “The realization of the return to the Land and the vision of the prophets after thousands of years of exile”
Quote from your answer: “I did not speak there about the realization of the vision of the prophets. That is a different discussion. There I only brought up the very unique phenomenon of the people returning to their land. Regarding the realization of the vision of the prophets, that is a discussion that I intentionally did not enter into because it raises several difficulties.”
There is a contradiction, and in your opinion you should delete the above expression from the notebook, or clarify it thoroughly.
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Rabbi:
In the second book in the trilogy, I explain at length why it is difficult to build on the fulfillment of the prophets’ vision. In any case, here too, my intention was to point to the very uniqueness of the process that the prophets prophesied about, and not to prove the hand of God from the fulfillment of the prophetic vision. In any case, thanks for the comment, I will check the wording.
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Hello, regarding the Torah that we have adopted and to which we are committed, it is the one that led groups that have mostly abandoned the Torah and alienated themselves from it to realize the vision of the prophets in the Land of Israel??
It is the one that led to the establishment of democracy – a governing mechanism that may be compatible with the Torah, but certainly does not stem from it??
I will quote from your own words:” Add to this the realization of the return to the land and the vision of the prophets after thousands of years of exile, the renewal of language and nationalism from nothing, and the creation of the only democracy in the Middle East (I think we are the only democratic state established in the world since 1948).”
It seems to me that there is no escape from one of two possibilities: A. The virtue of Israel; B. Providence, at least general. In particular, I really see your words about the vision of the prophets as a contradiction – if the vision of the prophets is to be realized, it will happen thanks to divine providence, or by a fundamental imprint on the people of Israel who aspire to their land (both are plausible). I do not understand any logic that it will be realized by chance, by those who abandon the Torah, and how this would seem to be a hint of something.
I would be happy to clarify, but it seems to me that you should clarify this point well in your notebook.
Indeed, it is true. The Torah has influenced our culture and traits, without any connection to its actual existence. There are Jewish traits even among the greatest world-breakers (some believe that the undoing of the yoke is itself a distinctly Jewish trait). The democratic trait can also stem from the same culture, and it has nothing to do with keeping the commandments. On the contrary, today, among the observant, democracy is not expressed too strongly.
Therefore, the conclusions that “there is no escape” from, certainly have an escape.
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