On Revelation Stories

I tend to doubt this very much. Although R.I. Caro was a smart man and seemed very rational (see the last column on the site). —————————————————————————————— Asks: So how does rationality and wisdom fare with the dubious stories? Perhaps this is related to the rabbi’s two columns before the last column about the complex assessment of people?
And I didn’t understand how this relates to the last column. Did the rabbi mean that in the last column we see that people of Halacha are rational people? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: The reference to the last column is because there I described the halakhic scholar as having a rational approach. On this side, there is the Maggid Meishrim who really connects us to the columns on complex evaluation. —————————————————————————————— Asks: I really enjoyed the columns about the complex evaluation of people. I can accept that even great people have messed up, and that will not diminish my appreciation for them, and in fact will even increase it.
But there is a limit, I cannot give weight to halakhic rulings written by a person who lived a lie and spread it to many, this is not a one-time fall or mistake, it is a lifetime of lies, even if I myself am satisfied with a certain halakhic ruling, I would not trust such a person to make a halakhic ruling. (Maybe it is possible that he did not write the Maggid Meishrim?). —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: You don’t have to give weight to his words. They should be weighed on their own merits, not because of the speaker.
His halachic ruling is rational and logical, and there is no reason to ignore it because the Maggid is right. We can leave it in the Tza.
It has already been speculated that the book is not his, but I think it is generally believed that this is not true. —————————————————————————————— Asks: Unfortunately, I have not yet studied all (or even most) of the issues of the Shulchan Aruch on my own in order to decide a halakha on my own. I tend to rule temporarily (until I learn the issue) according to one of the great poskim, including Rabbi Yosef Karo, in every issue that I have not studied myself. Can I continue to rule according to him (in issues that I have not yet studied) after it becomes clear that there is a reasonable chance that he is living a lie and spreading it to many? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: There’s no need to get carried away. He doesn’t live a lie, nor does he spread it widely. He (apparently) wrote a book that does seem strange and puzzling, but he probably thought for some reason that there was truth in it. So what? You don’t like it, then don’t study this book and don’t pay attention to it.
Most of his life’s work was not the affair with his Maggid but his halachic rulings that have been criticized by all the great halachic rabbis. You can certainly follow his lead. If you find problems in his halachic books, then you will have to think of another bar samakha. In the meantime, you can be completely calm.
I really feel embarrassed that I have to give approval to a halakhic giant like R.I. Caro. I refer you again to the two columns on complex assessment. —————————————————————————————— Asks: This seems like an evasion. There are three options:
1. The Maggid is telling the truth. So everything is fine.
2. The Maggid is telling the truth, and Rabbi Yosef Karo knew that it was not the truth. And yet he wrote it – that’s called lying. The book is a kind of diary that describes a long period in his life, it’s not a one-time lie, it’s a series of lies about a period in his life – that’s called living a lie. And he wrote this book for the masses – that’s called spreading the lie.
3. The Maggid Meishrim is not telling the truth, but Rabbi Yosef Karo thought it was the truth. Does that mean he had hallucinations?

Did the Maggid Mishraim not pass the criticism of all the great poskim? And if so, perhaps this shows that their criticism is not worth it? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Hello Daniel.
I repeat again, you are completely carried away. I have already written explicitly that my opinion is as your option 3, and I do not see this as a sufficient reason (nor even a reason at all) to disqualify R. I. Caro and all of his Torah work. Newton also had hallucinations and strange beliefs, does this disqualify his physics?
The book Maggid Mishraim did not pass the scrutiny of the poskim, and no one thinks it is part of the halakhic corpus. On the contrary, suspicions have arisen that it is a forgery, precisely because they saw that it does not fit into the teachings of Rabbi Karo and the halakhic system in general.
So how do you go from this anecdote to the discrediting of R. I. Caro and all his work and then of all the poskim? Excuse me, this is just baseless stubbornness. Beyond that, we are repeating ourselves over and over again. I have already written all of this and you have written it too.
May you be signed and sealed in the book of life. —————————————————————————————— Pine: Further to the discussion here, why does the Rabbi doubt what Maggid Meishram says? The Rabbi himself notes in the Notebooks of Faith that the mere fact that a certain phenomenon is strange or rare does not mean that it should be denied (if it were not so, we would not have made many scientific discoveries). And in addition, what is irrational about what is said there? In any case, if you were to say that what is said there has no halakhic validity, I would understand that, but why deny the correctness of the revelation?

Additionally, the revelation itself, as far as I understand, does not contradict physical determinism, since it did not occur in the physical world, but in the author’s mind. Thus, the revelation itself does not constitute a physical miracle or any violation of the laws of nature. —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Of course, I’m not talking about a deviation from the laws of nature, but about a rare event that, even when reported, usually seems illusory and not real to me. Rarity is a reason to be suspicious, even if it is certainly not enough in itself to rule it out. See my response to Hazkei below. I also added a consideration that stems from the abnormalities of the content. —————————————————————————————— Hezki: peace,

Where is the line drawn between mystical experiences that you will doubt, and which phenomena will actually settle in your heart? I assume that such a line exists because, after all, “it is from the foundations of religion to know that God prophesies to the sons of men” (Rambam, ibid.).
Does it mean that you doubt the truth of the things, for reasons of charlatanism and the like, but you would not rule out their possibility? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Hello Hezki.
Indeed, I do not rule out the possibility. And I still doubt such “revelations” after the prophetic ruling, and in particular because of the strange contents. Nor do I attribute this to charlatanism (because of the respect and esteem I have for R. Caro), but rather to his mistake or delusion. And maybe it really was, but I doubt it. —————————————————————————————— Hezki: Thanks for the answer. —————————————————————————————— Isaac: peace,
Do you also have the same respect and appreciation for the Chief of Staff, who, as is known, also went through the same experience? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Definitely respects him too, although he is much more suspicious than Ri Caro due to his tendency toward mysticism and various extravagances. He is also not a man of halakhah who is considered to be rational. —————————————————————————————— Isaac: The SLA actually seems to be a composition with quite rational thinking behind it… —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: It has such parts, but it is not a model of rational thinking. Certainly not like the Bible and the Shulchan Arbiter.
Beyond that, he has many other connections that are very far removed from this. —————————————————————————————— Isaac: Do you have another example of a Torah-Halakh-philosophical combination that constitutes a “model” for rational thinking? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: I didn’t understand the question. Almost every halachic-scholarly work is like this. The Rashba and the Rambam and the Katzvah and the Shacha and Shaarii Yashar and Rabbi Chaim and so on and so forth. —————————————————————————————— my father: For a long time I didn’t know how to eat the Maggid from the right side and my attitude towards Rabbi Yosef Karo was very negative until I realized that opinions differ as to whether Rabbi Yosef Karo wrote it or if it is a forgery. —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: As I wrote, it’s probably not a forgery, and yet R.I. Caro’s work is entitled to respectful treatment. Like Newton and many others. —————————————————————————————— Daniel: And what about the revelations mentioned in the Book of Genesis, such as Elijah’s revelation to Rabbi Yossi Barish, blessings? —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: I don’t know. As I’ve written here several times, there is a change in God’s dealings with history. The miracles, prophets, and revelations have disappeared. Therefore, it is difficult to judge what once was, but I do not rule out that those revelations were also questionable (parable or hallucination). Likewise, several commentators wrote about the words of the Rav “The Holy Spirit appeared in our school…”, which is in the form of a parable (which means that they had certainty and reached a clear conclusion). As I believe, Rabbi Margaliot, in the introduction to his edition of the Shulchan Shulchan, brought them from heaven (I am not sure). —————————————————————————————— Daniel: The parable is fine. But I don’t understand how the rabbi easily “accuses” the Tanais and R.I. Caro of hallucinations, as if it were normal for every third person to hallucinate revelations from time to time. —————————————————————————————— Rabbi: Hello Daniel.
1. I raised several possibilities in my words. Or that there once were such things. Second, a parable. Third – hallucinations.
2. Give me a rough estimate of how many people were in the world during the Tan’im period? How many Tan’im experienced various revelations? Let’s say for the sake of discussion ten. So if I accuse ten people of delusions (even if I were to accuse everyone of delusions. See 1), is that half the people in the world? I think your world is a bit narrow on my part.
3. What would you say about people who tell you today that they experienced a vision of Elijah or an angel of the Lord? Wouldn’t you accuse them (or at least half of them) of hallucinating?
4. Maimonides refers to revelations in the Torah itself as a dream or parable. So what is said about revelations in the Talmud?