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The essence of the sages’ sermon

שו”תCategory: philosophyThe essence of the sages’ sermon
asked 9 years ago

Hello Rabbi.

When the Sages used thirteen criteria to deliver halachic sermons (including sermons on the pronunciation of letters and words and other grammatical and syntactic rules), were they actually aiming for a final answer that was already determined before the sermon?
I am not referring to the well-known debate about whether the sermons are references or whether they really arrived at the law through them. Rather, assuming that they arrived at the law through them, I ask whether there is a final answer that the Sages are trying to reach? An answer that is written on a note with the Blessed One and the Sages are trying to hit the mark, or is there actually no such result and the sermon actually creates the law, which the Blessed One did not aim for at all, and has no need for itself at all.

If we say that there is a final answer that has already been determined from Sinai, the following things are not clear to me:
A. It follows that until that sermon was required, the people of Israel never observed this law, even though it was in God’s will at the time of the giving of the Torah, or: Why didn’t God, the Blessed One, say this law (“the final answer”) immediately upon giving the Torah, and waited for many generations until a sage arose to require the sermon, why did God allow us to supposedly transgress His will for hundreds of years?
It is clear that we are “forced” (or completely exempt) in this matter, but it is still not clear why God gave the Torah in this way, that there is a certain law that must be observed and it was never observed until the generation of the Tannaim, for example, what is wrong with the original Torah of Moses, that it required God to give us thirteen virtues and bring forth new things through them.
B. How is it possible that hundreds of years have passed since the Torah was given until a Tanai scholar arose and demanded this sermon (again, assuming that this law was not observed until his time), what led him to demand it? After all, he is aware that this law was not observed in the days of Moses, so how does he think that he is now renewing something that was never practiced (it would seem possible to answer this by saying that at the basis of every sermon there is an assumption that in the days of Moses this law was observed, and it was just forgotten over the generations, or that it became distorted, but I understand that the rabbi does not say this and that he has solid sources that in the days of Moses there were only a few laws).
If we take, for example, the teaching of the 13 Virtues on the ways of carrying a woman (in a sheter and in a beyah), if we say that in the days of Moses this law did not exist, and they sanctified only with money, and if someone sanctified a woman with a sheter, then they ruled that she was not sanctified (and permissible without a get), it follows that there is a real change in the Torah here due to the sermon of the 13 Virtues, so what is the will of God, blessed be He? And what is the point that His will changes when a sage arises and demands a sermon. And if we say that even in the days of Moses they sanctified in 3 ways, then we will be forced to say this about all the laws, and it follows that Moses our Rabbi received a very large part of the Toshab’a that we know today (without being a rabbi).

On the other hand, if it is said that the sermon is not aimed at a specific answer, it is difficult for me:
A) What is there to disagree with about someone who preached with the 13 virtues? (B”D contradicts the words of B”D before if it is greater than it…) After all, there is no specific thing that is true and something else that is not, but rather it is only important that the inference from the 13 virtues be free of contradiction, and that is enough. What is the point, for example, of making a different equal derivation and the like, after all, there is no “truth” here, but rather the sermon is trying to weave.
b) As in the first part, again the essence of the sermon is unclear, why was the Torah given in this way, in a way that it would develop over the generations?

Sorry for the length.


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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 9 years ago
Hello. A considerable collection of questions and difficult to extend. I will try to answer briefly as I understand it. It is difficult to know from the words of the sages themselves, but it seems to me that there is a simple logical consideration that provides the answer. Take as an example the sermon “You shall fear the Lord your God – including the twelfth.” After all, it was possible to include all sorts of things. Why and who chose to include this one in particular? The preacher’s logic. And so it is with all sermons. The dimensions of the sermon provide the biblical trigger for the sermon, but the decision of what to do with it is always left to the preacher’s reasoning. Of course, this reasoning is sometimes substantive and sometimes interpretive. It is possible that the preacher thinks that it is appropriate to fear the twelfth and therefore decided that this is the conclusion, but it is also possible that in his opinion there is no logic in such a requirement, but it is the worst of all the other options. When the word “you” is in the Torah, it must be included, and since he cannot find what, he chooses the least bad. And indeed, in the discussion between Rabbi and Shimon Ha-Amasoni regarding this sermon, one can see this picture, and in particular the second mechanism explicitly stated in the Gemara. Presenting two options: a shot at God’s will versus the preacher’s explanation. But this is a mock investigation, since the preacher’s explanation is the only tool for discovering God’s will. Therefore, in any case, it is an inference based on a biblical trigger and a conclusion from the explanation as I described. Why didn’t they preach the sermon earlier? They may have preached it and it disappeared. They may have preached it and it was passed on and handed down by the Talmudic sage. They may not have thought about it (or the principles of the sermon had not yet been developed and were therefore less easy to apply). In many cases, practical necessity leads the sage to seek out a sermon that would solve the halachic problem he is dealing with. After all, there are quite a few identical pairs of words that were not required in the GAZ. I assume this is because there was no need for it. It is God’s will that we do what comes from the Torah sermons. Therefore, there is no change here of His will, nor is there a change of the Torah. There is a change of the Halacha, but there have been quite a few. This has nothing to do with the assumption of the eternity of the Torah. When there is a dispute, it is because different people have different beliefs (and as I wrote, the midrashic outcome depends on the preacher’s belief). Even if there is no a priori will of God given in advance, there is a halachic truth that is debated. Not everything goes. Why did God write the Torah this way? Perhaps precisely to allow the sages to study it according to their understanding and changing needs. Beyond that, it is impossible to write everything (especially if there are still many laws that have not yet been required to this day, as I assume). See Eruvin 21 where the Gemara discusses why not all the laws of the rabbis were written and answers, “There is no end to writing many books.”  

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ישי replied 9 years ago

Regarding the last paragraph, if God intended to allow it to be demanded in a variable manner, doesn't it follow that He did not have an objective, eternal intention, and if so, then there is no point in searching for that intention (and then what are we supposed to search for)?

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

We are supposed to seek the truth in its time. He prepared for this in advance. For example, he can prepare to do good, but what is good changes according to circumstances and time. And yet with all the changes, everything falls under doing good. See my article on change in halakha:
https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9D-%D7%99%D7%A9-%D7%A2%D7%91%D7%95 %D7%93%D7%94-%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%A2%D7 %9C-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%97%D7%A1-%D7%9C%D7%92%D7%95%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%95/

ישי replied 9 years ago

In the Meiri's example, there is eternal truth and only reality changes. Here, on the other hand, I need to understand what he wanted to be repeated with the word ‘the’. If there is something constant, and only the understanding of the generations changes, then everything is fine, and I know what I am supposed to look for, but then he did not mean the understanding that changes and if there is a change then there is a mistake somewhere. If his own intention was that the thing that is repeated would change over the generations, then the question is what I am supposed to look for. You can answer me that I am supposed to look for some general idea of ‘good’, but that makes the whole Torah unnecessary because if I am supposed to interpret it according to my understanding of good, I can do it without it. To remind you, this is why you yourself think that the purpose of the mitzvot is not morality.

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

I explained above that the plural of the word “”at” is not always based on a substantive explanation, but sometimes on an interpretive one. If “at” were not written, we would not be pluralizing anything.
These two possibilities in our case are the following:
1. God's will is that if the Sages see that it is appropriate to fear someone, they will have a source to include him.
2. God's will is that there will always be someone else to fear besides God. The Sages must decide who that person will be (even if in their opinion he is not worthy of fear in himself).
Beyond that, there are also sermons that are references. The Sages state something that is true in itself, and base it on a verse or sermon. There are references that are rabbinical laws, but there are references that are Torah laws that are based on speculation and the verse is not a real source for them but only a reference. For example, I argued in my last article that the first source is in the sermons such as a king and not a queen or people and not women.

רונן replied 9 years ago

Just to make sure.
According to option 1 that the rabbi suggests, from the time of Moses to the present day, nothing was required of the word “את”, until the sage came and caused a controversy.
In fact, all of the ”את”את” in the Torah was written so that something could be included? Doesn't it turn out that this is simply the Hebrew language? (How many times in our days is the word “את” used, and we haven't heard anyone add anything).

מיכי Staff replied 9 years ago

Indeed. This is also regardless of what I suggested. By definition, in every sermon a creator – until someone came and preached, there was no sermon.
The question of why the word “the” is included is indeed difficult, but that is again unrelated to my words. There is an apparent assumption here in Negurion (that is how he would speak) that the correct way to speak is without “the”. And perhaps wherever they have called for the plural ”the” it is when there really is a simpler formulation without this word (such as: “fear what’ “), and then there is no principle here regarding every word “the”.

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