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Probabilistic considerations

שו”תCategory: faithProbabilistic considerations
asked 7 years ago

The rabbi wrote in the fifth notebook that all the evidence in Judaism should be included and included in the whole.
Among other things, the people of Israel survived.
But I don’t understand.
After all, the Lebanese also survived and are descendants of the ancient Phoenicians.
What is the difference?

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0 Answers
מיכי Staff answered 7 years ago

I don’t know if they are descendants of the Phoenicians (I don’t think so). But even if they are – the persecutions and survivals are incomparable despite being scattered all over the world and preserving a common culture and Torah.

תוהה replied 7 years ago

They are not descendants of the Phoenicians at all. They are Arabs. The Phoenicians were assimilated into Byzantine culture many, many years ago.

יואב replied 7 years ago

I quote from Wikipedia: “The descendants of the Phoenicians are found today among the peoples living in the Mediterranean region, such as: the Lebanese, the Maghreb, the Maltese, and the Cypriots. According to a genetic study of the populations currently living in these places, about 6% of the men sampled had a Y chromosome that could be linked to Phoenician migration[32]. The Lebanese, and especially the Christian Maronite population, base Lebanese nationalism on Phoenician history.”
Their descendants are still living today..
The rabbi wrote that this does not compare to the history of the Jewish people because it was widespread throughout the world, with pogroms and the like’
Rabbi, the Chinese are also scattered throughout the world..
You have Chinese in America, China, Thailand, etc.’.
And there are also other peoples who have gone through pogroms... such as the Armenians (the Armenian Holocaust, as well as the Avars who had genocide, etc., there are other examples)

תוהה replied 7 years ago

It is clear that every person alive today has ancestors from all sorts of places. The uniqueness of the Jewish people is expressed in the fact that they survived as a distinct people/group, unlike the Phoenicians, who do have remnants of their DNA in various places, but really did not survive as the Jewish people. And I repeat, the Lebanese are much more Arab than they are Phoenicians. Lebanese nationalism, etc., makes no difference to this matter. The Chinese began to disperse in recent centuries and there were always millions of them in China and they were not in danger of extinction. The Jewish people dispersed throughout the world and went through pogroms everywhere.

יואב replied 7 years ago

The Phoenicians and their neighbors also survived as a group. Just because they don't practice their infantile idolatry doesn't mean they survived any less than we did.
We, as a people, survived less. Most of the Jewish people were exterminated in the Holocaust, assimilated, the ten tribes disappeared from the world.
And I don't see how we survived as a people either. Biblical Judaism is very different from today's rabbinical Judaism. Back then, there was only sacrifice and the work of priests.
And by the way, I'm sure there are other unfortunate peoples. Not just us.
We need to prove that the survival of the Jewish people is something unnatural, and not just say that the Jewish people survived!

תוהה replied 7 years ago

Didn't you read what I wrote? The Phoenicians are really not a group.

יואב replied 7 years ago

The Phoenicians are a people of the Names who lived in the land of Canaan, similar to the Israelites. What do you mean when you say “group”

תוהה replied 7 years ago

I will answer one last time because I am tired of repeating simple facts. The Phoenicians were a people who lived in the land of Canaan, similar to the Israelites. Their paths have since diverged. The Israelites spread throughout the world and were often not treated so well, yet they maintained their uniqueness in their surroundings and were not assimilated. After thousands of years, Jews from all over the world returned to their land.

The Phoenicians, on the other hand, were assimilated into the Byzantines. When the Muslims conquered the region about 1300 years ago, the Phoenicians were no longer a separate group (I think this is even mentioned in your favorite Wikipedia). Of course they had descendants, but they mixed completely with the Arabs to the point that the only way to know who they were is a DNA test. Lebanon (although according to Wikipedia only 6% of its residents have a Y chromosome that can be associated with the Phoenicians) can say as much as it wants that it is the ”continuation” of the Phoenicians, but that's just as nonsense as the nonsense about the "Palestinian people".

יואב replied 7 years ago

You wrote “So good attitude, yet they maintained the uniqueness of their surroundings and did not assimilate.”
They did assimilate. This is why a Russian Jew is similar to a Christian Russian, and an Iraqi Jew is similar to an Iraqi Arab.
This shows that there was a wave of converts who were added to Judaism.. There is really no connection between the ancient Israelites of 3000 years ago and today.
It is not true to say that only DNA testing led to the discoveries of the Phoenicians.
There is a Phoenician nationality, as I quoted from Wikipedia “The Lebanese, and especially the Christian Maronite population, base Lebanese nationalism on Phoenician history.”

תוהה replied 7 years ago

You repeat the same unfounded claims. After your next response, just read my responses in order and you will get an answer.
They were not assimilated, but immigrants were added to them. They did remain separate communities. There is definitely a clear genetic connection between Jews of different denominations and even a common Y chromosome with the priests.

The quote from Wikipedia means nothing because they are not really related to the Phoenicians any more than they are to the Arabs. The establishment of nationalism etc. is nonsense in this case.

י.ד. replied 7 years ago

The Phoenicians were Canaanites who founded Carthage. No one seriously sees themselves as their successors. If anything, a more successful comparison is the Greeks, and even there the Greeks did not abandon Greece.

I was talking about language and it should be noted that local languages are usually preserved even after oppression (especially if they are from different language families), but immigrants abandon the language and switch to another language. However, the Jews remained tied to the Hebrew language and suddenly returned to it after two thousand years.

תוהה replied 7 years ago

Y.D., it's a bit strange to say that the Jews suddenly returned to Hebrew. I think most Jewish men usually knew Hebrew very well. (And the thousands of books that were written testify to that. Yes, even before Eliezer Ben Yehuda)

יואב replied 7 years ago

Wondering, there is still a certain connection between them and the ancient Phoenicians.
Although it is not so dominant, it still exists.
And by the way, if you want to cancel the nationality of the Christian Maronite population for example, then you need to bring evidence, because they rely on tradition that they are descendants of the Phoenicians just like us.

י.ד. replied 7 years ago

Yoav,
Before the nineteenth century, no Maronite thought that the Phoenician lineage was so significant (it was precisely because the Palestinians were not Palestinians – a word that, by the way, does not exist in Arabic – before the 1960s). It was only contact with the Franks that suddenly gave it importance.

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