Two Remarks on Halakhic Decision-Making in Advance of Passover (Column 706)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In the next column I will return to the question of dynamism and statics in Halakhah and their implications. But in the meantime, ahead of Passover, I thought to briefly raise a column with two halakhic points and add holiday wishes. I will touch here, in a nutshell, on two (adjacent) points where in each one it would have been reasonable to think that, according to my approach, I would agree with them, and yet I oppose them. The first concerns the value of autonomy, and the second my opposition to conservatism.
Matzah Ashirah (Rich/Egg Matzah)
When I was a youngster in the illustrious Bnei Brak, I did Passover shopping and, among other things, bought “rich matzah” cookies under a mehadrin certification from Rabbi Ovadia. It did not occur to me that there could be a problem here, since there was no hint of it in the kashrut approval on the package. During the holiday I discovered, to my astonishment, that I was apparently eating full-fledged chametz with Rabbi Ovadia’s approval, and this joined his policy that I saw in other cases as well, where he writes his view decisively and does not bother to qualify it and note that there are other opinions and other customs (such as regarding kitniyot, and the like). I well remember my shock then, and against this background how amazed I was when this year my wife again bought such cookies for Passover, bearing a sharp and unequivocal kashrut approval from the school of Rabbi Ovadia (they write that it is according to Rabbi Ovadia’s rulings).
I will preface by saying that I did not, in fact, check chemically whether there is scientific support for all the theses that will be presented immediately, but the lenient and the stringent themselves do not rely on scientific testing but on the Talmud and the Rishonim, and therefore I too will discuss this within that conceptual framework. See here for a survey by Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu (whose father prohibited matzah ashirah as a serious prohibition, and he follows in his path).
Briefly, matzah ashirah is flour kneaded with fruit juice or wine, and not with water. The Gemara (Pesachim 35a) states that this does not ferment, but several Rishonim wrote that there is nevertheless a biblical prohibition to eat it (albeit without kareit). This appears to be how the Rema ruled in Orach Chayim 462:4 (though his wording implies this is only a custom and not that he rules there is an actual biblical “lo ta’aseh”). In contrast, there are Rishonim who ruled it is completely permitted (and so ruled the author of the Shulchan Aruch there). Yet the Rishonim state that if water is added, matzah ashirah ferments even more than regular dough, and this appears in the halakhah in the Shulchan Aruch itself (there, in §2), even though he permits matzah ashirah. There is a dispute whether we are speaking of water added specifically after the kneading, or water mixed with the fruit juice before it was introduced to the flour. In any case, contemporary poskim have pointed out that in the industrial production process of matzah ashirah cookies it is almost impossible that no water will mix in, and therefore we are dealing with full-fledged chametz (meaning not merely a biblical “lo ta’aseh,” but actual kareit). In the MB (Mishnah Berurah) there on §4 it is written that if leavening/raising agents are mixed in, matzah ashirah is full-fledged chametz. In our cookies, such agents indeed are included.
In my eyes, the kashrut approval by Rabbi Ovadia for matzah ashirah cookies is an outright corrupt scandal. With all due respect to him and his approach, when he grants kashrut certification for the public he is obliged to note that this is according to his position and that there are many poskim who disagree. In granting certification to an industrial product he is not answering a private question addressed to him but providing a service to the general public. The arrogance, brazenness, and typical definitiveness of him and his sons—as if they and no other—should lead us to avoid relying on them in anything whatsoever. In my view, they are not to be trusted in matters of kashrut or in the laws of issur and heter in general.
I have written more than once that a person should decide according to his own judgment and not be overly rattled by the existence of other opinions and precedents. But precisely for that reason it is important to raise here a few limitations:
- We are dealing with a posek, not a dayan. A posek who decides one way or another does not obligate the one who asks him to obey. By contrast, a dayan rules a judgment that obligates the litigants. Therefore, it is reasonable to demand of him to rule for them according to accepted conceptions, or at least to inform them that he has an unusual approach so they will not come before him. This is what is termed in the legal world “legal certainty.” A person who comes to judgment is supposed to know the binding law so that he can act accordingly. If a person acted according to a reasonable halakhic approach, it is not reasonable that he will be brought to judgment and punished for it.
- Even regarding a posek, we are speaking of someone asked a personal question, and in particular he can explain his answer to the questioner. And this too applies because the questioner has the option to examine him and not rely on him (I will not reopen here the rule “a sage who prohibited, his colleague may not permit”). But if he paskens in a way that cannot be examined—him and his reasoning—he cannot do so. Especially a posek who provides a public service, and everyone relies on him to have checked the facts. Relying on him does not constitute acceptance of his halakhic positions, particularly if they are unusual.
- I have written more than once that a posek asked about some law, if he knows there are other views, must present to the questioner all the options, for in my opinion—contrary to the common conception—it is specifically the questioner who must decide in practice, not the posek. See, for example, in my essay on leniency and stringency.
By way of analogy, I will bring what I have cited more than once (see, for example, in Column 21) in the name of the Magen Avraham. He permits saying your words in the name of a great person so that they will be accepted from you. On the face of it, this is an utterly unreasonable permission, for a layman can thus mislead others and cause them to stumble in serious prohibitions. I further challenged this from known forgeries, like the forged Yerushalmi on Kodashim, which the sages of the generation strongly condemned. Seemingly the forger acted well, fulfilling the words of the Magen Avraham. So whence the criticism of him?
I explained there that this ruling applies where a person senses that his arguments are being belittled and not seriously weighed. But the assumption of the Magen Avraham is that even if one says the words in the name of a great person, the listener will not accept them automatically; rather, he will weigh the arguments more seriously before forming his own position. Where there is concern that the listener will accept his words without forming his own view, it is certainly forbidden to lie thus. Therefore it is clear why the sages opposed the forged Yerushalmi, for if there is a Talmudic source, everyone accepts its authority without the possibility of considering disagreement. It is certainly forbidden to speak in the name of a formal authority, or at least before an audience that will accept the words solely because of the speaker. So too regarding an audience of laymen who are not capable of weighing the position of that “great one.”
If so, it seems the same applies in our case. A kashrut approval printed on a product’s wrapper is directed at the general public, who are not capable of forming a position, and naturally will accept that approval automatically. Nor are reasons given there that one can weigh. This is the causing of the many to stumble, and one who grants such certification violates “placing a stumbling block before the blind” for the many, and his iniquity is too great to bear. This is so even if he has a halakhically well-founded position of his own.
It is true that several times in the past (see, for example, this essay) I brought the words of the Ritva (Sukkah 10) who permits Reuven to cause Shimon to stumble in something permitted according to his own approach but prohibited according to Shimon’s. But I noted that the Ritva himself writes there that this is only if the one causing the stumbling informs Shimon and draws his attention to the fact that this is the situation, so that Shimon can form his own position (see there what the novelty is). This, of course, is not done regarding matzah ashirah cookies, especially since the audience is not composed only of Torah scholars who can even weigh the matter. The Ritva explicitly writes that this permission applies only when those “caused to stumble” are Torah scholars.
In such a situation, it would have been appropriate to write on the wrapper that it is kosher according to Rabbi Ovadia’s approach, and to note that many disagree. One could phrase it as “kosher for those who customarily eat matzah ashirah,” or something like that. Again, the brazenness and arrogance of the Yosef family, evident in every lesson and talk, show up here as well. This is aside from their other lofty “virtues,” such as their mafioso conduct—as a crime family that treats the rabbinate and public offices as their personal domain—about which I have written more than once in the past. One can hear the lessons in which Yitzhak Yosef, or another of Rabbi Ovadia’s sons, expresses a view (sometimes entirely unfounded) with complete arrogance, as if the Holy One, blessed be He, Himself is speaking from his throat, while disparaging other opinions, if he even mentions them. It is all the more infuriating when it is directed at a herd of blind followers, as most of their audience, for this audience trails after them like the blind in a chimney and is convinced that all their words are the words of the living God. The problem worsens when we speak of a certification directed at the general public, who are not necessarily bound to the halakhic approach of the Yosef family and innocently rely on the certification. I am sorry for the harsh words, but someone must put an end to the brazen and arrogant stupidity-mafia of this family.
As noted, my autonomist approach would ostensibly have supported such a stance—but it does not. Everything has its place and time. In kashrut certification for the general public there is no room for autonomy, certainly not when one does not bother to note that this is an unusual approach.
The Law of Reclining (Haseivah)
Yinon recently asked me in the Q&A regarding reclining at the Seder night. The claim is that nowadays reclining is not the manner of freedom, and therefore the question arises whether there is an obligation to recline and why. Here, too, this touches my approach advocating changes in Halakhah if circumstances require them, and again my aim here is specifically to qualify that.
I wrote there that the view of the Ra’avyah is known—that in our day one need not recline, for today the manner of freedom is different. He writes almost exactly as the questioner’s approach. The compromise adopted by the Rema is also known, that women do not recline for the Ra’avyah’s reason. On the face of it, this is very puzzling: if we adopt the Ra’avyah’s view—then men too should not recline; and if not—why should women be ruled so? This is especially true of women in our day who are considered “important” (as the Rema writes), and there is no reason to distinguish them from men.
I brought that I once heard from Rabbi Mann of Yeshivat Or Yisrael a nice distinction in this matter. He said there are two reasons to recline on Seder night: 1) to sit in the manner of freedom; 2) as a remembrance of what was done then when they went out to freedom (I am ignoring the fact that this “manner of freedom” was likely more in the Roman period than in Egypt. Thus the Sages saw it, and thus they instituted). It may be that this is the root of the difference in the Rambam’s versions between “a person must see himself” and “show himself.” To “show” is to recall what was then, while to “see himself” is his own manner of freedom now.
The claim is that the second reason is part of the telling of the Exodus and the remembrance of those events, and therefore it does not depend on today’s manner of freedom but on what was customary then. Regarding the second reason, the change in circumstances—namely that today reclining is not a manner of freedom—is irrelevant. For the first reason, of course, it is relevant. His contention was that the Seder leader must also recount the Exodus to the other participants, and therefore he reclines for both reasons. The implication is that he must recline even today, when this is not the manner of freedom, for he must still demonstrate how it was done then. By contrast, the listeners (not necessarily women—but women are usually among the listeners) recline only for the first reason, and since today this is not the manner of freedom they are exempt from reclining. This may be the reason women are exempt from reclining today, even if they are “important.” The implication is that women who lead the Seder will need to recline, and the men there will be exempt. The distinction is not between women and men but between the Seder leader and the listeners.
But one must also discuss the very rationale that exempts listeners from reclining. “Manner of freedom” is not necessarily synonymous with comfort. It may be that even today reclining best expresses freedom, even if it is not the most comfortable posture. Therefore there is logic in reclining even today (for the listeners as well, not only the Seder leader), for when we recline, by changing and deviating from the ordinary way, we are reminded that we must feel freedom—something that will not happen if we sit on the most comfortable chair or armchair. In my eyes, this is a simple and correct rationale. It may be that this is why the Sages instituted according to the manner of reclining of their time, for already then this seemed to them the most fitting way to express freedom, even if in earlier times people did not sit thus.
In conclusion: in my opinion there may be room to be lenient, but it is proper to recline. The Seder leader certainly should, and I think everyone else as well.
Note that here too, according to my “reformist” approach, I would have been expected to support changing the Halakhah in light of changing circumstances—and yet I do not. Before instituting changes, one must examine the “conservative midrash” that underlies them (see the series of columns 475 – 480). Not every rationale and change that appears reasonable on its face is truly reasonable. Sometimes further examination reveals that the argument does not, in fact, hold water.
To sum up: I am entirely in favor of autonomy and entirely in favor of reforms—but everything has its place and time. A bold halakhic position does not mean anything goes and that it lacks constraints and limitations. On the contrary: the more radical the position, the more it requires extra caution and extra critical scrutiny.
On the eve of the Festival of Freedom I will add my hope that our freedom—which includes, among other things, autonomous conduct and a willingness to make changes and to formulate positions independently and in accordance with circumstances—will not make us lose our minds. One must adhere to autonomy and be willing to change, but that too must be done critically and carefully.
I will conclude with wishes for a kosher and happy holiday for us all, and with hope for good tidings whose chances of realization are, sadly, rather slim: the speedy return of the hostages, the restoration of sanity to all sides in our besieged realms, and the swift eradication of Hamas and all that pertains to it, speedily in our days.
Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Yitzhak Yosef also criticizes his father in Yalkut Yosef, and does not even include his father's opinion in the comments, a reason for this is found in the laws dealing with the Kaddish of an orphan over her father.
Regarding "rich matzah" on Passover, Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi Doron, the late Rishon LeZion, has already argued in his response to Benin Av, Part 4, Section 6, that although some permit "rich matzah" It is necessary to prohibit and feel for those who prohibit, like the Mishnah Berurah, etc. (He also claims that the opinion of those who permit should be written on the packaging of rich matzah). I noticed that among today's Sephardic poskim, the discussion about rich matzah deals more with the ingredients. For example, Rabbi Shlomo Amar (respondence to Shema Shlomo Ch. 4, 6, 3) ruled to permit based on a scientific explanation of the ingredients by the factory managers of Papushdo cookies. The Kosher Organization (founded by the disciples of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu Shalit) wrote a long article in which he explains why those who permit are wrong. See here: https://www.kosharot.co.il/index2.php?id=413716&lang=HEB
Also Rabbi Ofir Malka Shalit, who is a young poskim and very popular among the Haredi public A Sephardi claimed that eating rich matzah should be prohibited (which drew fire from Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef)
Thanks for the words and Happy Holidays.
You wrote: "In any case, the rabbis today have insisted that in the industrial production process of rich matzah cookies, it is almost impossible not to have water mixed in, and therefore it is a complete leaven (meaning not just a leaven but a real leaven). In the M”B, there on S”D it is written that if yeast is mixed in it, then rich matzah is a complete leaven. Our cookies do indeed also contain such substances."
In light of these things, Rabbi, is it right not to eat today? (I am Sephardic)
Do you eat these cookies?
Thank you.
Of course not. Don't touch.
Interestingly, in recent years, more popular Sephardic rabbis have banned these cookies. See the latest storm surrounding Rabbi Binyamin Hota's comments in his Halacha column on Kol Barama Radio here: https://www.inn.co.il/news/665763
Thanks for the column
A note on many who were outraged by the forgery of the Jerusalemite
Ika Lamidhi because it did not seem to them that the forger thought like the forger
And there are many more obstacles that arise from the forgery to issuing laws that never even occurred to the
forger
And there is no such thing as a temporary provision
For a teaching for generations
And in any case, a kosher and happy Passover
I see that the rabbi is not responding to the response
But the evidence from the Jerusalem forgery is very puzzling
And that the forger intended to issue a law and therefore published it under other names?
And was this his own creation?
And perhaps the rabbi was actually referring to other forgeries in history that concerned the observance of the law. And even on these the sages of Israel disagreed
And by the way, the Jerusalem act mentioned the guests
In any case, I am not aware of such an act
A collection of irrelevant divisions and unfounded assumptions. What am I supposed to answer?
Honorable Rabbi
You don't say anything and you don't owe anything
At the same time
You can reason
Because the anger over the forgery of the Yerushalmi is not at all a contradiction to the words of the Magen Avraham
After all, his words are said by someone who publishes correct halacha in order to be listened to
He attributes it to someone else
The aforementioned Yerushalmi
Both conditions did not exist, nor are they correct halacha
From the perspective of the forger, for example, the tefillin of Rabbeinu Tam
And that was not his intention either
I am indeed your student and
Much younger than you, but
I would expect you to back down
I understand that it is difficult for a giant to back down from the words of the mosquito
But since you are an example
to many, you need to overcome the courage of a lion. This whole style of mine is not the most respectable
But I understood from you that you allow this kind of expression
A kosher and happy Passover
I referred to my explanation in the Maga’s words, where you can see that there is no connection between correct and incorrect halacha. The fact that you, as a layman, think that a certain halacha is correct, cannot allow you to say it in the name of the Chofetz Chaim. This is the worst possible failure of the multitude.
Therefore, it is clear that the purpose of this halacha is not to convey the “correct” halacha, but to lead your colleague into a discussion to seriously consider arguments that he disparages.
I will be happy to retract my statement when I see a relevant argument or division. So far, I have not seen one. Therefore, I also did not understand what reasoning you expected. I reasoned in the places to which I referred, and you apparently did not read.
Beyond the lack of arguments and beyond the fact that you did not read my reasoning and yet you expected reasoning from me, as I wrote, there are also unfounded assumptions in your words. Here are two: 1. That this is a correct halacha teaching. I explained that this is unfounded by my explanation. 2. That this was not the intention of the forger. As far as I know, his intention was to present his arguments on behalf of the Jerusalemite, exactly what the Maga is talking about. And if it is a non-halakhic area (the laws of holy places are also halakhic), the reason is doubly true. There, in general, it is important to consider all the arguments and arrive at a good scholarly picture. Therefore, there is much more justification for hanging mulberries on a tall tree. Therefore, my question about the forger's critics still stands, and my explanation is stated above.
I hope that now I have explained enough for your liking.
Oh my goodness
I interpret that there is no contradiction between the Magen Avraham and the anger of the rabbis, for I believe in the interpretation of the Magen Avraham
and you attack the interpretation according to your conclusion in the words of the Magen Avraham
which I did not discuss at all
I only pointed out that the evidence
is not evidence
The forger simply wanted money
and even if he did not, one should still be angry with him for many reasons, even before your interpretation of the Magen Avraham
If you choose to insist, then good luck. I wrote my arguments and as usual you didn't respond. I'm done.
I was disgusted by your opinion about the family's behavior. None of my business. Interesting, that's less the style I thought I'd hear. In the name of Rabbi Simcha Cohen (he actually said it before..))
” Don't say no, say I'm surprised..”
(I meant me). Happy Holidays.
I think you're missing the point when you connect Rabbi Ovadia with Rabbi Ovadia's students. In other words, the fact that they grotesquely copied his aggression and determination does not require comparing him to them. Even if you didn't mean to, it's not right to put them in the same boat. Regarding the very claim about halakhic communism, that's certainly a problem.
I really didn't compare. Rabbi Ovadia was a true great Torah scholar, unlike his idiotic descendants.
Honorable Rabbi
I agree with you with the criticism of Rabbi Ovadia's family, but I didn't understand what the fuss was about in this particular matter. The Beit Yosef ruled that rich matzah is permissible. I always knew that Sephardim eat rich matzah, are there some who don't?
I have no problem with the kosher certificate. The problem is that no reservation is specified. What's more, when water is involved, the bei also requires kerat.
The rating "according to the ruling of Rabbi Ovadia" is already an exception to the standard kashrut rating and should have turned on a red light for you, or at least that's what the kashrut provider apparently thought.
There are a number of examples of kashrut that didn't even mention this - wine diluted with 5/6 water, meat from animals that is not smooth, cooking for Gentiles according to the Rama (there are certainly also examples that deceive Ashkenazim)
Rabbi Avraham Yosef once claimed that he wanted to become a Lutheran and his father told him "If you don't give kashrut, someone else will make rich matzah and not be careful with wine alone and that will really be chametz."
They write, "According to the ruling of Maran Rishon LeZion, Rabbi Ovadia, the late Rabbi."
1. Why don't you really involve chemistry in this story? There used to be no precise measurement. Today, you can easily test everything and see whether rich matzah is leavened or not and what type? Why settle for a conceptual discussion by poskim?
2. I don't really understand the criticism of the Yosef family that does not state in the kosher that there are other opinions? If it says kosher Beit Yosef, then it is kosher in the opinion of Rabbi Ovadia, there is no deception here and everyone understands that it is kosher according to his opinion. It's like there were communities that took upon themselves the ruling of the Maimonides. In the Mishnah Torah, the Maimonides does not state and warn that there are other methods but rather states his opinion.
3. Even if there is value in autonomy and the poskim is only supposed to lay out the options and the client is supposed to choose, psychologically most people want to go to a specialist who also knows how to generalize for them what option is most beneficial for them (the same goes for doctors). You cannot deny the human need for a guide who absolves them of choice and responsibility for any halakhic discussion. This very psychological fact justifies presenting a posk's position without the disclaimer that there are those who disagree.
1. I am not involving chemistry because I have not examined the chemical meaning (of leavening in general). I did not write that it is inappropriate to involve chemistry.
2. I know that it is kosher in his opinion, but I did not learn from this that it is not kosher according to other opinions. I explained this well in my words, and if you do not insist on it, I am sure that you will understand too. Maimonides did not provide public kosher certification services. I explained that too.
3. I can certainly deny it, and I do. Not because it exists, but because it is the job of the posek to provide an answer to it.
2. I don't see the essential distinction between public kosher certifications (there are enough Dosian communities that don't trust the Yosef family's kosher certifications) and a blanket, public halachic ruling without a disclaimer that many good people disagree with (Mishnah Torah).
Really trying to understand
I explained this. This does not belong at all to Dosian communities that do not trust the rabbinate. That is exactly the difference. The matter is known there and those who want to be careful can be careful and will do so. It is not about failing in prohibitions there either, but mainly in customs or levels of supervision (to what extent the examination is representative). But here it is not about aggravation or Dosianism but about a different halakhic system. If you follow a different system, you must make it clear so as not to fail. I explained that you cannot fail a person whose halakhic system is different from yours, unless you inform him. In fact, the bottom line is that you agree that many fail in the prohibition of cutting because of this policy? That is all. Would anyone accept such a situation in any other field, except for this collection of arrogant and impudent idiots? Why is kosher indicated for legume eaters? When it is utter nonsense, they do indicate it. Even there, they will write kosher and that is it. And the same goes for non-Dosian rabbinate. Even the non-Dosian rabbinate explicitly writes both of these. Why don't they write that there are more Dossians than them, and that they are?
I accept the gist of legumes and non-kosher milk, but I don't accept the premise. Legumes really could have been labeled kosher and that was it. This is nonsense. Why is it so impudent in your eyes to believe that anyone who claims that rich matzah on Passover is a Torah prohibition is simply mistaken in their confidence and legislates it for everyone? Of course, according to Rabbi Ovadia, who, in his view, has the shoulders of Gulliver. I don't see this as any more arrogance than the many cases throughout the generations of poskim who were confident in themselves to claim that all others didn't understand the issue properly.
To your question, do I agree that many fail to understand because of this policy? No. It depends on who is right in this dispute.
Because if that's the case, then his own position is nonsense. Of course the other position is not. In short, I explained that confirming kosher is not the same as expressing a position in a book or a response. There, it's clear to everyone that they're reading the author's position. Not really kosher. They trust him to check kosher and not to decide for us what is kosher. If we knew that was his policy, then we shouldn't trust him even in testing. He has no loyalty to anything.
Non-Jewish milk and legumes are not just something to contradict. These examples prove that he also understands this very well, that his job is to check and not to decide. In addition, these examples themselves cause confusion, because the audience understands from them that if there is a reservation, then they write it down.
And in particular, these things are said about Rabbi Ovadia, whose system is clearly precedent-setting, and is based on previous opinions, suddenly here there are no opinions and only his own position exists. This is the great fallacy of the many.
And as for the cut, I will come back to it again. It is forbidden to cause a person to stumble in what is forbidden in his opinion, even if in your opinion it is permissible. If in his opinion it is a cut, you have caused him to stumble in the cut. This is not an argument that in practice he will be cut (because that is mistaken and also because perhaps you are right that there is no cut here), but an argument about the boundaries of the fall.
Is there even a clear chemical definition for pickling?
Good question. There are various claims that offer such a definition (including at least two by my two colleagues at the Bar Ilan Institute, Rabbi Rappaport and Rabbi Katz), but I haven't checked.
There is a sign for this in Rabbi Shmuel Tal's book of Passover lessons
https://asif.co.il/wpfb-file/%d7%9e%d7%94%d7%95%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%97%d7%99%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%a5/
As for the Yosef family, perhaps the famous vows of the Pa are fulfilled in them.
I wanted to strengthen the Rabbi's hand on the distinction between freedom and comfort, there is an important classical message in this.
A rabbi once told me that when he was a boy, a “Moda” would wear a cap. The rabbi wanted to wear one too, but his father wouldn’t agree. He argued in his father’s ears: “But the Chofetz Chaim also wore a cap.” The father replied: “You don’t start being a Chofetz Chaim from the hat.”
The Ovadia family took the hat and the style from their father. The content is less critical to the character.
beautiful!
You wrote:
“In such a situation, it would be appropriate to write on the packaging that it is kosher according to the method of Rabbi Ovadia, and to note that there are many who disagree.”
To the best of my knowledge, there are many other situations like this. Meat certified by the Rabbinate, for example, is this something that would be appropriate to note that there are many who disagree?
Or meat slaughtered by X, would it be appropriate to note that there are many who disagree?
https://mikyab.net/posts/92655/#comment-92260
Matter of fact about rich matzah - do you think this applies to all types, or just the aforementioned cookies? For example, egg matzahs from "Mitzvot Aviv" or "Mitzvot Rishon", and other products (there was a waffle from a well-known candy manufacturer that was written on it for rich matzah eaters).
I have no position. I have not checked. If and when I have to formulate a position on these questions, I will not go into the opinions of the poskim or even the Shu”sha, but will try to chemically examine what is happening there. But that is not in my power at the moment, and therefore I will follow the poskim. And even when I do, of course I will not give a vague and general kashrut approval according to my system without noting that it is only my system.
Regarding the reason for women, there is another explanation by Gershom Auerbach. He claims that the reason we answer is because the Sages established a rule to change the rule, but there was never a blanket rule for women, because
In the Torah it is written that only an important woman is required to change the reason, and only in our time did Mordechai write that all women are important, so today the reason has no meaning, women are exempt.
It seems to me that there is a level here for you to lower it.
Why the height to put it? Nice explanation. Although it is questionable whether the regulation was not on women or not on unimportant people, and since women are important, they are generally a regulation.
Beyond that, according to his method, it seems that there is no need for Rabi”ah's taste. They were not a regulation at all and therefore are not obligatory. Therefore, it does not mean as he says.
Perhaps it is important to change it, so that there are four questions left, not three, which there is no option to cancel (are we changing the concept of four questions to three?).
It seems to me that his intention was that for men the regulation was to perform the action of the cause, but for women the regulation was to act in a way of freedom. Therefore, in the time of the Gemara, only important women were obligated, and in the time of Mordechai, all were obligated, and in our time no one is obligated because there is no way of freedom in this, as the Rabbi wrote.
Although in principle there is something to the claim that a restriction needs to be specified in kosher that it is only for the method of so-and-so, etc., but it should be noted that the reality is that all koshers practice this way and completely ignore the methods of those who disagree, even when it comes to the great poskim, and that many follow their lead, and this is not a one-time or two-year incident but in dozens of disputes of all kinds and all kinds of Torah and Rabbinic law, everyone who knows the subject knows that this is so, and all your disputes and explanations will only be of no help to those who do not know the subject... and there is no point in dwelling only on the Joseph family...
Regarding water, I have no idea if there really is, I will only point out that they claim vehemently and repeatedly that there is not a drop of water.
I was not talking here about fear of knowing another contemporary posk, but rather about a solid method in all the first and last. In this I do not think that there is such disregard in other kosher laws, unless the method has been completely rejected and no one practices it today. Poke Chezi regarding legumes and non-Nakhri milk, which everyone mentions.
Matzah and maror were spices for the sacrifice during the time of the Temple, but after the destruction they were defined as independent commandments. In contrast, the dipping (first course), the removal of the table, the moving of the table, and the afikoman are part of Hellenistic etiquette at formal meals.
The Mishnah states that even a poor person in Israel may not eat until he has sat down. From the treatment of the poor specifically and not of all Israel, one may perhaps get the impression that this is not a substantive law on Passover itself, but rather a practice that is not less important if this is the norm.
Although we see various attempts by the sages to give reason for speaking even when the norm has changed (the first dipping and the removal of the table for the infants to be surprised, etc.), it is perhaps equally legitimate to continue to treat the regulation as a norm dependent on place and time and not as a substantive law especially for Passover (as the Rabiah did).
https://www.kosharot.co.il/index2.php?id=44716&lang=HEB Really delusional, he writes that for other opinions too, it is only a beginning and that it is only from custom and not law
*https://www.kosharot.co.il/index2.php?id=44583&lang=HEB My mistake
Slightly tangential to the topics of the column – Can we conclude from this that in your opinion everything with public implications should be done by halakhic consensus, such as conversion? (That is, even those who believe that it is possible to "lower the bar" in order to convert in practice should not do so, etc.?
Another topic – Confiscation of kiddushin in extreme cases (in a certain sense, it is possible to equate this with kashrut – for example, according to Rabbi Yid, it is possible, but many disagree, and then it "obstructs" according to their opinion, etc.)
There is no connection between the questions. Here I am talking about a public service that should be done transparently to the public at large. You can provide kosher however you like as long as you write it clearly.
Indeed, in simple terms, the same applies to conversion and the forfeiture of a child's marriage. However, the result there is not reversible and has implications for everyone, and therefore there is even more room to demand consensus and transparency alone is not enough.
I will note that the cancellation (and not the forfeiture) of a child's marriage is a slightly different matter because when you cancel a child's marriage, you are not doing any halakhic act but simply informing the woman of her current situation. This is her situation, and it does not depend on you.
In your article, you presented as a certain fact that water is involved in the production process, which led to severe criticism of the granting of kosher. However, I find it puzzling how you came to this firm conclusion, when there are people who testify from their familiarity with the production process that there is no possibility of water being involved in the process.
Furthermore, in the words of Rabbi Naki in the booklet on Halacha and Aggadah (page 129 onwards, and it is recommended to read from the beginning of the chapter), he clearly testifies and explains how the production process is carried out and why it is not possible for water to be involved. If things are indeed as he describes, then presenting things as a fact could be considered a misrepresentation of the truth — a serious matter that could also cause significant financial damage to the establishment.
We would appreciate it if you would address these matters and clarify the sources of information on which you relied, out of the fear of God and the caution required in matters that have the potential to harm others.
This is the link to the above booklet in which the things appear
https://video.htv.co.il/2017/pesachpdf336.pdf
I did not present it as a certain fact, but rather raised the arguments of those who forbid it. And as for my arguments, it really doesn't matter whether they are right or not. I referred to Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu's review, and there are more online.
The language of Magen Avraham
“If he heard a law and it seemed to him that the law was thus, it is permissible to say it in the name of a great man ”
From his language, it does not seem to be the interpretation of the Rabbi
According to the interpretation of the Rabbi, he should have said if he believed the law
On the issue of the stumbling block, he probably intended to be serious and not to be silent in order to avoid being forbidden
And he still qualified his words when he heard a law
And even to be silent if it concerns reaching a teaching
And the one who heard it believed as he said, there is no obstacle in that
And if he does not believe as he said
Then there is no reason for him to listen to it
And if he hears because the sage who spoke in his name believed so, there is no prohibition in that
Because the prohibition is when he eats something that he believes is forbidden
And so he changed his mind
In any case, the essence of Magen Avraham's words is clear
As permission to lie in order to avoid being forbidden
Why didn't you respond further to the thread you opened above?
As for your words, I certainly appreciate your commitment to the cause and your tenacity, but from his words it seems different from what you suggested. He writes that it seems to him that the law is so, and not that a bar-samakha told him so. But who is this layman who would seem to him that the law is so? How is he allowed to lie and mislead others just because it seems to him? Everyone can seem to see all kinds of things. This permission does not lead to the ascetic from the prohibitions, but to massive stumbling in the prohibitions. You can of course offer an excuse that he himself is a great man, but why hang on to a great man who hangs himself. Well, clearly: he is not recognized here as great. There is also the excuse that you offered me in our conversation: such as that he heard it from a great man but is not recognized here, and therefore you hang it on another great man who is recognized. Now you have added another excuse: that this is a serious matter. Well, after all these strange excuses, you still claim that this is a simplification of his words. Good luck to you.
And another note: What is the difference between heard and it seems to him that this is the case and believes so? Heard from whom? The validity from above? This is also empty precision.
In short, you continue to insist for nothing. I have ended the discussion with this. Happy Holidays.
Hello, there was a problem responding there for some reason
I don't think the accuracy is empty at all
What does he just write if he heard a law?
The difference between hearing and seeing and believing alone
It is possible that he meant that he heard and that is all the information he has
Then there is no reason to lie and say that so and so said, "He who hears will hear and he who ceases will cease."
I don't know why you are assuming that this is a layman.
Simply speaking, this is a person who believes that this is the law, that is, that he is the most righteous.
Regarding validity,
If it is only for the Aphrodisiacs of Isura, it is certainly only one validity.
In any case, I was amused that you attached a validity to the proposal here on the phone.
I am proposing a new idea.
What do I have to stand behind the history of our conversations?
Or is the idea correct or not?
In any case, it is possible that I am just insisting, it is possible that I am not.
But writing to a person who is just insisting
If he is raising new claims, it is puzzling!
To the point
Thanks to your approach to the issues, another thought occurred to me. Let's assume that the interpretation in Magen Avraham is like yours or mine.
Is the very thing in the explanation permissible or forbidden?
Regarding your interpretation, we should discuss
Is it permissible to lie so that people will listen to your explanation?
And regarding my interpretation, are the Aphrodisiacs from Isura permitted to lie?
I will add something else on the subject that is somewhat different. There are some poskim who believe that stating a halakhah is incorrect even in the place of pikuach nefesh is forbidden.
On the grounds that falsifying the Torah is forbidden even in the place of pikuach nefesh.
Another matter that slightly touches on the matter of justifying a halakhah with incorrect reasons where necessary.
Some have claimed that the Chazon Ish did this.
I would appreciate it if the rabbi could expand a little on the subject.
I have written here several times about “holy lies.” The prophet did indeed do so more than once, as in his remarks about two thousand years of Torah regarding contradictions between Torah and science and more.
Is there a source for the mitzvah of conversion being a reminder of the Exodus from Egypt, other than the path of freedom?
It is not “apart”. This is the very meaning of the path of freedom. The law of the path of freedom has two aspects: to act now in the path of freedom and to remember the path of freedom then. I commented that this is perhaps the difference between seeing oneself and showing oneself.
I don't understand where the path to freedom was then? On the contrary, your loins were girded, etc.
This is what was considered the path to freedom back then.
What? Eating with a belt around your waist and a stick in your hand (one foot out) in a hurry is not a form of freedom, even though they expressed it, just as someone who came out of the camps in the Holocaust and was given unlimited dry bread to eat does not make eating a way of freedom.
Regarding what you wrote here:
“The modern-day poskim have insisted that in the industrial production process of rich matzah cookies, it is almost impossible not to have water mixed in, and therefore it is a complete leaven”
I don't understand what difference the small amount of water that is added makes if there is already a lot of water in the fruit. The concentration of water in the fruit hardly changes in percentage.
I still don't understand why it is impossible to rely on modern scientific knowledge regarding the question of whether there is leavening in flour that has been kneaded in fruit water.
As I answered above, it is absolutely possible. Of course, the acidification process must first be defined (there is controversy about this). I have not tested it and do not have data from anyone who has, so I have discussed it according to the assumptions of the poskim. They claimed that fruit juice does not acidify, but with a very small addition of water, it acidifies more than regular water.
So for that matter, if I could ensure production conditions where there is not even a small addition of water, would you be willing to eat such rich matzah?
No, because according to some of the early scholars, there is a prohibition against it even when there is no keret, and this is how the Rema cites it (although as a custom, as I noted in the column).
I have already written before about why women trust the rabbi and the question of the state. The answer is simple: Women did not convert in the past and now they are starting to be obligated because they are important. They trusted the rabbi, while the men who always converted did not abrogate their law.
You wrote, "I ignore the fact that this path of freedom was probably more prevalent in the Roman period than in Egypt. That's how the Sages saw it and that's how they corrected it." There are two phases of conservatism here, the Sages tried to preserve something and we try to preserve the Sages' rules, and in both cases it is possible to preserve it simply or in a Midrashic manner.
If we preserve the Sages' rules simply, then the path of freedom is in conversion as in their day. If we preserve the Sages' rules in a Midrashic manner, then if they tried to preserve it simply (because they thought that in Egypt too the path of freedom was in conversion as in their day) then we must act in a path of freedom as in the days of Egypt, and if they tried to preserve a Midrashic manner, then we must act in a path of freedom as in our day.
In other words, it follows from your words that in your opinion we should preserve the Sages' rule in a simplified form, and it seems (from the phrase "Thus the Sages saw it") that in your opinion the Sages also tried to preserve it in a simplified form. Why do you think the preservation of the rule was done in a simplified form? Is there a connection to the rule "a void reason does not invalidate a rule."
Good question. The discussions on the conversion convey that the regulation was indeed the case, and therefore it seems to me unlikely to interpret it as a midrashic one. Clearly, in the background there is the rule that a nullity of reason does not invalidate a regulation. But perhaps you are right. In the end, I explained that there are also reasons for the substance of the matter (the distinction between showing and seeing, and the distinction between freedom and convenience).
Discussions in the Gemara? (In Berakhot 30:2 it seems that even in the days of the Amoraim they considered it as in the days of the Tannaites)
exactly
Although you wrote that you did not enter into the question of the chemical process, on the sidelines of the matter, I find it interesting to see how the process of acidification, which at the time of the Mishnah and the Gemara was clearly a realistic question that was tested with realistic, acceptable tools (such as cracking, grasshopper horns, water temperature, etc.), has undergone a kind of reduction to objective definitions, most of which on the surface lack realistic meaning (such as the difference between fruit juice mixed with water and "pure" fruit juice, which naturally contains water), and today no one is really interested in whether it is leaven or not, unless it meets the definitions that were originally intended to help us decide whether it is leaven or not. It is very clear how this process happens because clear definitions need to be given to things in halacha, and once there are definitions it is much easier to refer to them, but once a definition has been given and agreed upon, it has become a generator of halacha (like the 18-minute thing that became sacred and is measured in seconds), and then the absurd result is a lot of fiddling about whether a certain dough meets the definitions that were intended to reflect reality, completely ignoring the question of reality. Representations of reality become reality, halacha becomes a collection of almost abstract rules even when the leaven itself comes in its own. It is almost postmodernism. To me, it is similar to the laws of the preparation of utensils - a tangible thing like "taste" has undergone a transformation and become something more akin to "impurity", with different rules for its transfer and its cancellation that have completely disconnected from the question of reality. Not that I'm doing anything against these rules, but it's a kind of split that I live in.
As I explained, I do not agree with this mechanism, although it is indeed common. For me, reality is the determining factor. But I do not have the time and ability to test everything realistically. And again, saying that fruit juices contain water does not mean that they are truly sour.
When you claim that you disagree with this mechanism, do you mean that you do not justify it or that you do not think that it exists? Because it seems to me difficult to ignore the fact that it exists to some extent. It seems to me that the very discussion of cookies based solely on interpretations of the words of the Rishonim shows this - there is no reference to the fundamental definition of leaven and no attempt to give a precise scientific definition that would be useful to us, although it is not impossible in principle. We only refer to definitions given in periods when the understanding of chemical processes was related only to external phenomena without the ability to know about the internal mechanisms that drive them, and therefore it is necessarily partial and anecdotal (based only on experience and not on theory) and therefore it is impossible to generalize from it regarding a new reality. Regarding fruit juices - I did not say that they necessarily leaven: I said that I do not think there is a basis for distinguishing between fruit juices that have been mixed with water and those that have not, since they contain water anyway, which the Sages could not know - For them, fruit juice is a liquid that is not water, it has a different color and a different taste and comes from a different source and they behave differently, and they had no way of knowing that it is also composed of water.
I wrote “even though it is common”, didn't I?
Regarding chametz, there is an article by Rabbi Rapaport from Bar Ilan,
Regarding utensils, Rabbi Melamed's soap argument sounds most logical to me.
As someone who worked in an industrial kitchen and washed utensils himself, the laws of utensils are quite clear. Grease on these utensils almost always takes the most effort.
All the more so if they didn't wash with dish soap but sand and water...
In the home kitchen with the power of the dishwasher, it's much less.
Think of plastic boxes that have food with sauce in them, try washing them by hand and understand the laws of utensils, put them in the dishwasher (where the power of the soap is very strong because it's not for contact) and you won't understand the laws of utensils
I agree that plastic containers absorb flavor, you can't ignore it. But we're talking about metal that absorbs flavor and releases it, not about grease that remains stuck. I don't know of a laboratory process that can tell you what was cooked in a particular pot, after it was thoroughly cleaned - that is, a process that talks about something that was absorbed into the wall itself. When you read what they wrote about it in the past, I at least get the impression that for them, "taste" and "smell" are immaterial things that can pass from place to place or from material to material, and this is a very logical and reasonable understanding when you don't know anything at all about chemistry because you have no way of knowing. But today we know that this is not the case, if you feel the flavor or smell of something it is because part of the thing itself is here, not "its flavor". But maybe I don't understand it enough and maybe it's not like that.
I don't think the elite Ashkenazi Badetz scholars say in restaurants that it's not for Sephardim who are particular about fish and cheese. And that's not always something that can be distinguished in food. And even though you can divide between chametz and halal or say that halal is tash or something like that, I think there's a principle here that they don't care either. And other things and more.
So it really would have been appropriate to write ‘for those who eat rich matzah’ etc., since everyone doesn't object and doesn't criticize Rabbi Ovadia, who for some reason seems to have something personal against him.
I also remember that on the issue of whether the main thing in learning is the halacha or the learning itself, you present it as if it were just the approach of the ‘Yosef family’ As you say, even though that is what many Rishonim say.
“The arrogance, impudence and determination that are characteristic of him and his sons” I hold the rabbi as a man of knowledge, and I assume that the rabbi agrees and is aware that Rabbi Ovadia is a T.H., does it make sense to speak of him that way? Isn't there some formal authority from the G.M. that says to behave respectfully in the T.H.? And please don't say that is how it is written on the Internet and the like. And even more so don't say that you think he is not a T.H. because I hold you a little more than that..
To the Honorable Rabbi Dr. Michael Avraham
Shalom Rabbi and may you be blessed
I saw your words regarding rich matzah and the kosherness of Rabbi Yosef. And I saw a video of the above who claims that he sacrifices his life for the kosherness of these cookies,
and he works for several months (of course without receiving pay …) to ensure that the materials do not come into contact with water, etc., and whoever challenges him and his father
who sent him to do so should not trust him with anything. What do you think of his words?
I have no information and therefore cannot judge the facts. But the fact is that there are people who have tested and claim that contact with a little water will not escape. Beyond that, the method of some Rishonim and thus the Gemara has clarified that there is a Torah prohibition in rich matzah that is not a violation even if it does not come into contact with water. That is what I explained in my column.
I am happy to explain my reasons. There is no reason to write that in your opinion this is permissible, but fairness requires that it be noted that those who practice it are permitted to eat rich matzah. Not to mention the small amounts that everyone mentions, even though it is complete nonsense.
In my opinion, this is part of the arrogance and conceit of the Yosef family.
In the margins of my remarks, I will add that I guess that the dedication of the soul to the matter, even if there is indeed such a thing (I do not have much faith in the aforementioned guy), was created after the father, Rabbi Ovadia, became interested in the permission of his father. So basically, I assume that in any case there was a problem. So why should the son sacrifice his life for something that has already been arranged and examined by his father?
Therefore, the Mishnah did not move from its place.
A classic case of yours, since you insist on nothing. The fact is that the commenters here and others understood that Zeb is kosher according to the method of Rabbi Ovadia, and not necessarily according to all methods, especially since it was his way of easing the halachah. In other words, in terms of advertising to the public, the announcement was clear and it is a fact that the majority understood it. In my opinion, the problem is with you and you are blaming it on Rabbi Ovadia and others. In addition, it has already been noted that many kosherities grant kosher even if, according to another opinion, it is about prey such as uncut meat and the like. Anyone who wants to be sure asks a teacher he trusts
Some notes
A- What you wrote is indeed a simple matter, my name is a sour fruit-
May the words of the Lord be with you- (copied from the Tissab)
(30) It is forbidden to eat dough on Passover with wine, oil, and honey, and if it is eaten, Rabban Gamliel says, "You shall burn it immediately," and the Sages say, "He shall eat." Rabbi Akiva said, "My Sabbaths were with Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua, and I ate dough for them with wine, oil, and honey, and they did not say anything to me, and the Sages say, "You shall eat." Daxberry can be preserved and not grated from the hand of Damshanafah, it will not ferment:
And further - Lakman means that it does not ferment, as it is said (Lt:) Dutika Shari in Mishcha and Milcha because it is faded, because of the fruit
And further - He said (M.) Gabi Hatza Davishona,
And also - Gabi Ha Dzhari Laharuchi Teri Shevli Bahedi Haddi
But fruit does not ferment at all, and even to begin with, they ferment
Therefore, our Rabbi Tam interpreted (Tos’ 3:4 and Me) that they do not ferment at all by themselves, and we mean that here are the rules of Lakman
And so the R”sh also wrote (Si’ 13).
And so the Maggid wrote in Chapter 5 (Heb. 2) On behalf of most commentators:
B- What you wrote that some of the Rishonim are strict is true - but it is just puzzling, especially according to your view, since most of the Rishonim are lenient (see Yavneh 19:1-2, cited by other Rishonim), and the issue is as simple as that.
If your concern is with your custom, your concern is like the rest of the Ashkenazi customs, those who know from a halakhic perspective, how to get rid of them know, those who don't don't.
C- Your complaint about Rabbi Ovadia in that he does not mention this, (and I am not one of his students, etc.)
Even the Badz does not mention that the meat is known, that it is a prey according to the Shulchan and according to the Rama, and only according to the voice of the Lord is it kosher, as do the rest of the Badz (from my experience as a lung tester, where there are several in the Badz),
Is the prohibition of eating tarifot from a lung less severe than rich sourdough starter? Likewise, regarding grape juice at the time, they did not state that it was not kosher for those who follow the Shabbat, but rather they wrote that even according to the בייה it is kosher, because there are interpreters of the Shabbat in this way, and they ignored many jurists, both Ashkenazi and Sephardi, who interpret it differently from the Sephardic custom known to them (and caused the blessing to be a guarantee and to cancel kiddush and to eat without kiddush). Likewise, regarding other things, which they mentioned, such as cooking for non-Jews according to the Shabbat.
D- Another thing unrelated to kosher
Rabbi Ovadia is the only one who brings in his books both the opinions of the Ashkenazim, and from which his sons and the rest of his students learned, to the epochs of Ashkenazim books even in the land, such as observing Shabbat as its law, and other books that were compiled in the land, from the laws of prayer and blessings to the Shabbat of Nida, prohibition and the permissible, and other areas.
E- Regarding the aforementioned cookies, I have two things to say: A- Note that they are not in the hologram of the Badz Beit Yosef, so it is no longer at the level of the Badz, and therefore there is no complaint. B- The Papashdo cookie controversy is so widespread and well-known in the public, from my childhood until now, that just seeing the name of the cookies with the stamp of the aforementioned rabbinate is quite enough.
And- Regarding the addition of water- then
1-First of all, the Rabbis and the Rambam agree that water is a drink with water.
2- Even if water is added, so what, only if we wait, the questions begin.
3- If Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef were to testify that there is no water there, I would not believe it, just as he testifies that the דצז ביא is more strict about the rules than the דצז אידה הארדית, “with clear knowledge” (in clear dreams?), and even if his father, despite his greatness (he would have claimed to have seen it with his own eyes).
But that Rabbi Naki testifies that he saw it with his own eyes and that anyone can go and see, I personally believe, especially since in his books he does not hide opinions but also brings up those who hate Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef.