New on the site: Michi-bot. An intelligent assistant based on the writings of Rabbi Michael Avraham.

On Doubleness and Stagnation in the Haredi World (Column 680)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

About two weeks ago I was hosted on a podcast (called “Haredit Meduberet”) with Esty Shushan. While thinking about what to discuss there, a realization struck me that seems highly significant regarding Haredi society: life in doubleness (two-ness). Since most of that audience is Haredi, it felt right to raise it there. About a week ago (Sunday, 26.11) there was a parlor meeting on behalf of the movement The Third Path, where I met with a Haredi group to talk about the state of Haredi society. I decided then to lay out this insight more fully.

In this column I’ll present the insight to you as well. I’ve already discussed the issue of mental/intellectual doubleness in the past, so I won’t enter into it here in detail per se, but will focus on its meaning and implications in the Haredi context. Other topics will arise here that I’ve treated before, and for those I’ll mostly refer elsewhere. I should preface by saying that this column is devoted to a critique of Haredi society, since that was the topic of the evening and of the podcast. The question of doubleness concerns it primarily. I have critiques of parts of the Religious-Zionist community as well, and “The Third Path” aims to offer an alternative set of ideas to broad parts of it too—but that’s for another time.

Summary of the Manifesto: Rotating the Front Lines and Creating a “Third Path”

I opened with a summary of my manifesto about shifting the watershed line in today’s religious community. At present it runs mainly around the attitude to Zionism: Haredim oppose it and Religious-Zionists (or national-religious) are for it. Everything revolves around that question: matchmaking, newspapers, batei midrash and educational institutions, communities and synagogues, rabbis, clothing, and more—all orbit the question of whether you are Religious-Zionist or Haredi. Needless to say, that dispute has long since ceased to be relevant. The state has existed for almost eighty years, and every sane person wants it to exist and to flourish—economically, militarily, and in every respect. No sane person wants to die or go into exile, and certainly every sane Haredi wants there to be a minyan from which to milk funds. So there is no real debate about any of that today. The actual disagreements in the religious world now belong mainly to questions of modernity and liberalism, not to Zionism: the status of women; attitudes to LGBTQ people; to non-Jews; religious coercion; integrating Haredim; the halakhic policy of the Chief Rabbinate and its courts; and so on. Yet we remain fixated on our identities and hang them on the question of Zionism, although it is irrelevant. Eighty years after the state’s founding we are still fighting one another passionately over the acute question of whether to establish a state or not, and whether this is the beginning of redemption (atchalta de-geula), the footsteps of the Messiah (ikveta de-Meshicha), or just empty rattling.

A few weeks ago someone on the site raised a challenge to this thesis from the fierce debate these days over drafting Haredim. Seemingly this is a prime example of a dispute that does revolve around Zionism, showing that even today it has practical ramifications. Well, no. I explained to him that even the draft issue is not connected to Zionism but to modernity. The reason Haredim don’t enlist is not their stance toward Zionism or the state, but their desire to remain apart from their surroundings and preserve their bubble. In other words, it’s mainly a matter of attitude to modernity and the environment, not to Zionism and the state. Even if you hear some Haredi argument that invokes anti-Zionism, that is demagogic anachronism that doesn’t really reflect the true reasons. It’s exploiting the fixation described above for polemical needs. For this reason, arguments raised against Haredim from the power of “milhemet mitzvah” (obligatory war), “helping Israel in time of trouble,” “the groom from his chamber and the bride from her canopy,” or other Torah sources are irrelevant. The argument isn’t there. Moreover, even if I were a lone Jew living in Zimbabwe, if there were an existential threat to the state I would be obligated to enlist and contribute my part to its defense. This has nothing to do with Zionism, and not even with Judaism. It’s a matter of basic morality and justice. Simply being a mentsch.

And note: in column 665 I described the rapprochement between Hardalim and Haredim on the conservative side. They work in a wondrous symbiosis to promote the terrible desecration of God’s name they are producing together within the current coalition of horrors. The symbiosis is not only between politicians but also between the rabbinic leaderships of the two groups. Anyone who thinks this is mere interest-driven cooperation is gravely mistaken. It is a real convergence, because they understand (even if they don’t admit it or are not conscious of it) that there is no real difference in their conceptions. Both sides understand that the question of Zionism is almost irrelevant, and on questions of modernity they are entirely partners to a conservative and ossified conception of Torah and halakhah.

This indicates that we must give up the Zionist seam line also on the more open, modern flank of both groups. We must rotate our identity axes so that the front lines and identity seam lines—around which our polemics are conducted and our religious identities set—are around the question of attitude to modernity, not to Zionism. That way, Haredim (sociologically and/or theologically) can be connected with national-religious (sociologically and/or theologically) who share a more modern and liberal outlook, exactly as I described here the linkage between the conservative wings of the two groups. That is the goal of the “Third Path.”

A Look at Haredism and Hardalism

One can say that the conservative-separatist Haredi conception espouses a “Noah’s Ark” ideology. The Torah, or the beit midrash, stands in constant confrontation with the world. It protects us from its terrible influences, and our mission in the world is to survive pure and not be soiled by what happens outside, which is of course fundamentally defective. This view sees the world very childishly: it was all created for us and we sustain it. Everything outside the Jewish-religious community is merely a cast of extras whose role is reduced to how they relate to Jews. The whole world is nothing but a series of tests, and our task here is to withstand them and be saved (like a computer game; outside the ark there is no real reality). The mission is to make it safely from this filthy, dangerous corridor to the world to come. This is the theological dispute described by R. Hayyim of Volozhin in Nefesh HaChaim, Gate 4, regarding the “filthy passages” (whether there is value or holiness in the profane realm of the world; whether the tzimtzum is literal).

Note that what stands opposite the “Noah’s Ark” conception is not the Religious-Zionist view but the modern one. Religious-Zionism can live within a “Noah’s Ark” consciousness, and indeed that’s what you see in the Hardali world. The whole world is against us, and even the part that is for us has only one function and meaning: to serve as a backdrop for our conduct (we who sustain the world). Once this was conducted in the “World Central Yeshiva,” a place eccentric in itself, until those atlas-angel supporters of the world, bearing it on their backs, split and went off to Har HaMor and Givat HaLevonah.

It’s very easy not to notice this because in the Hardali Religious-Zionist world—the one that today represents Religious-Zionism in public and political discourse—there is a theoretical ideology that appears completely different, from the school of Rav Kook. One of Rav Kook’s revolutions was to begin seeing the world as a valuable entity: to leave the childish picture everyone grew up with that the Holy One, blessed be He, has nothing in His world but four cubits of halakhah; to see value in art, in science, in the new morality, in democracy, in equality, in literature and poetry, and so on. Yet at least in practice the Hardalim are entirely Haredi. First, they too, following Rav Kook, agree that everything was intended for our sake. We are the soul of the world and everyone else are extras—even if they have some value (usually deep inside them, and only the crystal eyes of the “greats of the generation in faith,” those who can discern amid the storms that Katzav was accused wrongfully, can perceive it). In this, Rav Kook himself was Haredi. Beyond that, Rav Kook’s Hardali disciples deviated from his path in that they disqualify anything that threatens them—anything from “outside.” The Kookian ideology remains almost a dead letter: a theoretical declaration without practical ramifications. They wage war against academia, against art, against other religious conceptions and streams; they see anti-Semitic (i.e., anti-Hardali) demons in everything that happens in the world; and de facto they close themselves off, at least intellectually, almost like Haredim. All this together with lofty declarations about Rav Kook’s doctrine and positive recognition of the world and all that is in it. Words (usually empty and pompous) are their craft.

“The Third Path”

The alternative of “The Third Path” proposes a different way to relate to the world. In part, this is what Rav Kook originally advocated. In our view we must approach the world with empathy, see value in what happens within it—even in what irritates and appears in extreme and disturbing forms. This applies to academic research, to philosophy, to art and literature, to personal and self-expression, to democracy, and even to the challenging of gender and LGBTQ questions, and the like. The world is not a cast of extras (and for my part I would also forgo the idea that we are the ones who sustain it, “the soul of the world”—an exclusive and somewhat childish discourse).

This is modern Judaism, and it need not be tied specifically to a Zionist conception. A person can be Haredi (sociologically and theologically) and still espouse such a view. Some adherents of “Torah with Derekh Eretz” were like that. The goal is to connect those who identify with this direction from both sides and thereby break the existing identity map (i.e., rotate the front lines).

Imprisoned Consciousness

Seemingly this is a change of consciousness. We must persuade people from both camps (Haredi and Religious-Zionist) to adopt a worldview different from the one they currently hold. But the picture I sketched above—namely that we must rotate the axes and create different coalitions—assumes otherwise. My claim is that even now there is a not-insignificant Haredi public that identifies with modern-liberal conceptions, and we call to it to connect with the non-Haredi public that holds them. The claim is that that slice of the Haredi public already identifies within with those conceptions, and yet for various reasons still identifies itself as part of Haredism (Haredi-lite). Such a person lives with the consciousness that the ideal model is the conservative-Haredi model and that the rabbinic leadership is the conservative Haredi “greats of Torah,” except that I am weak and am not there myself. He tells himself: that is the utopia I too believe in, though I don’t live that way. I’ll try to educate my children in that path in the hope they will be better than me.

This consciousness is what preserves the identity anachronism described above. It’s what keeps the determining identities as Haredi versus Religious-Zionist. There is an imprisoned consciousness, where within the person there is one conception, while his actual conduct looks completely different. Usually this is perceived as capitulation to desire and weakness, but the Third Path’s claim is that this is a different conception, not weakness. The movement calls on such Haredim to release their imprisoned consciousness and bring it out of the closet. We seek to give them an alternative label that will take them out of the Haredi identity prison. They must stop defining themselves as Haredi-lite (second-rate) and internalize that they hold a lechatchila (a priori) alternative ideology: Torah with Derekh Eretz. They must reject what they imagine as utopia and recognize that what they feel inside toward it is disagreement, not weakness. Of course there are Haredim who truly are “lite,” but the Third Path addresses those who are not really such and only live with the false feeling that they are.

The leadership that belongs to the conservative core makes sure to pump into them that they are “lite,” because there is only one model of Torah greatness and service of God. If a person sees himself as Haredi-lite, that doesn’t threaten Haredism, because he accepts the Haredi utopia. He lives that world inside, in his private domain, but declaratively and ideologically he continues to condemn it like the conservative Haredim. As long as you’re like that, the Haredi establishment is willing to recognize you as a half-legitimate periphery. The Third Path’s step threatens them because it calls to free oneself from this identity and conceptual prison, and thereby dismantle the existing Haredi framework.

I’m dealing here with Haredism, but it’s worth noting that the same applies to conservative Religious-Zionism. Its leadership also pumps into anyone who isn’t Hardali that he is “lite.” The only rabbi to whom he can’t listen is the Hardali rabbi. Thus each such person can be a half-legitimate Religious-Zionist, since he still maintains the correct utopian model, even if in his own conceptions and conduct he is not there (that’s the advice of the evil inclination; no one is perfect).

The Third Path tries to gather both groups with these imprisoned consciousnesses, bring them to light and connect them into an alternative path. We call on them to recognize that they are not Haredi-lite or Religious-Zionist-lite. They are modern religious Jews, and as such they belong to one group: the Third Path. From this you’ll understand the basic assumption: many in the Haredi world feel inside that the world is something positive to participate in (in a measured way). They actually oppose the “Noah’s Ark” ideology. They only need to free themselves from the assumption that this is weakness or desire, and recognize that it is another ideology.

Haredi Doubleness and Its Meaning

Note the implications. When I speak with such a person and try to convince him of a different model, I’m attacking the problem on the wrong plane. Inside he is already there. The problem lies elsewhere entirely: even if I think this is right, the question remains whether it truly is right and whether I should implement it in practice. The goal is not to create another consciousness, for it already exists. The goal is to free it, recognize it, and get people to conduct themselves by it. The insight I reached in recent weeks is that the discourse with modern Haredim must take place on that plane, and to do so we must understand better imprisoned consciousness and mental/intellectual doubleness. Again, in this column I’m focusing on the Haredi side of the map. The situation on the other side (=the sitra achra) is similar, but there are significant differences that are not our topic here.

I’ve often spoken with Haredim who, to my sense, are already in that place, and again and again I find that nonetheless it is very hard to persuade them of it. Time and again I feel my arguments don’t fall on listening ears. I assumed the arguments apparently aren’t strong enough—at least in their view. They weren’t convinced. At some point I realized the problem is elsewhere entirely: even if they are convinced, that doesn’t mean they’ll think and act that way from here on. They live in doubleness. Inside they can be convinced of the modern thesis and oppose the “Noah’s Ark” ideology, yet the ideology that accompanies them day-to-day and their utopia haven’t changed. They continue to hold the conservative ideology and act by it (vote in elections, send their children to “ark-ish” institutions, and the like).

In short, to change someone’s conception and cause him to behave differently, two stages are needed: present arguments that will persuade him of the claims in question, and cause him to act practically according to those conclusions and claims. The problem in discourse with Haredim is not the first plane. Many of them live in doubleness: inside they hold one conception while in actual life they act by another and experience a religious picture different from what exists deep inside them. They perceive the dissonance with what is inside them as their weakness.

I described the state of doubleness in earlier columns (see e.g., 199, 575, 584 and more). When a person acts in a way that does not match his inner conceptions, this is not always a struggle of desire versus values/ideology. In many cases a person backs his desires with conceptions he develops to anchor his manner of conduct. Therefore, a person can live with a conception that does not match what he truly thinks. Note: he not only acts differently, he also thinks differently. That sounds very strange. When we speak of cases where a person acts differently from what he himself thinks, that’s what philosophy calls “weakness of will.” There too are not-simple philosophical and logical problems, but we know such situations well (see columns 172173). But the claim that a person thinks differently from what he thinks sounds like an oxymoron. Yet in those columns I showed that such states indeed exist within us at times. Some will call it false consciousness, and more generally we can speak of doubleness.

My claim is that mental/intellectual doubleness is very characteristic of Haredi society, and that is mainly what blocks it and doesn’t allow it to progress (or: that’s what preserves it, as conservatives would describe). Haredim can cynically mock the fixers who manipulate their “greats of the generation,” and at the same time obey everything they say. They can hold anti-Zionist declarations and behave the opposite. They can grasp the interests around “kosher smartphones,” and still support them. Understand that everything is in our hands and declare that everything is in Heaven’s hands. Understand that the doctor heals and the soldier protects, yet explain passionately that only Torah and prayer protect and save (hence the thesis of “hishtadlut,” refuted from within). Understand that in the Haredi press the only correct thing is the date (unless there’s an interest in changing that too), and consume only it. Understand that the rate of sexual molestation in the Haredi world is horrific compared to the general population, and still praise wondrous Haredi modesty. Revolt against the attitude to women and at the same time accept it. Understand the distortion in Haredi social and political conduct, and yet not oppose it in practice and even produce pilpulistic arguments for it and continue voting for Haredi parties. Decisively fix principles of faith that one must not participate in government and must not appoint women to religious councils, and when a need arises flip everything on its head (“Da’at Torah” understands that now “It is a time to act for the Lord”). So too it will be with the draft when heavy economic sanctions are imposed. I promise you that “we will die rather than enlist” (i.e., you will die and we won’t enlist) will evaporate in a cloud.

Implication: The Failure of Discourse and Haredi Stagnation

Note what happens in a state of doubleness. Suppose I want to change Haredi attitudes toward women. I raise arguments and/or various sources in favor, and my interlocutor is persuaded. But all that means is that inside he has become a feminist. That has no bearing on what he will say or do from now on. Externally he lives with the consciousness of a Haredi conservative, and what is inside is merely the advice of the evil inclination. As is known, the intellect too is part of the inclination. Using one’s intellect is the most dangerous inclination. Look and see what the Haredi filters most rigorously filter out: pornography or other opinions. Why is a Haredi filter needed at all?! One can use a regular filter at the strictest levels.

If so, what blocks the move to create a modern Haredism is doubleness. What we must address is not arguments and sources but the tendency to live in doubleness—that is, not to implement what you yourself believe. This, in my view, is a golden insight for anyone who wants to promote processes of modernization among Haredim. Want to get a Haredi to enlist? There’s no point quoting “the groom from his chamber and the bride from her canopy,” or obligatory war, “helping Israel in time of trouble,” “shall your brothers go to war,” etc. You’re not attacking the problem on the right plane. Everyone knows all that, and even if not—it’s easy to inform them. The crucial problem is not how to get him to think so, but how to get him to act as he himself thinks. Haredi stagnation lies here.

To deal with this situation, it’s important to understand it better. We can suggest several reasons and different features of this doubleness, some of which I’ll now note.

Discourse with Haredim: Torah Scholars and Am-ha’aretzim

I’ve often written here that it’s much easier for me to discuss my radical views with conservative Torah scholars. They understand that there is room for the considerations and sources I bring. They can agree or disagree, but they understand what I’m talking about. In contrast, when I speak with balabatim, it’s a lost cause. For them, since they’re not Torah scholars, everything descended to us directly from Sinai. Whenever I go against some convention, I immediately become an apikores. My sources and arguments won’t help, because they stand against an explicit “halakhah from Moses at Sinai” (the obligation to wear a suit, women’s stockings, or just such-and-such halakhic stands). The problem is twice as bad when I speak with women. As is known, women are forbidden to study Torah, and thus their blessed ignorance is preserved. Now go present sources and arguments to show that a woman can serve as a rabbi, be called to the Torah, is not obligated to send her husband to kollel, may study Torah, and the like. All these are, in her eyes, laws from Moses at Sinai (via R. Shach and the Hazon Ish, with a salute).

Try to undermine Haredi articles of faith: the status of women; education; democracy and morality; the “Noah’s Ark” approach; attitudes to LGBTQ people and to the non-Jew (what is a non-Jew); someone mentioned in the Gemara can resurrect the dead; one who dies for his Judaism is holy; “turn it and turn it, for all is in it” (all wisdoms are in the Torah). There’s no one to talk to. The basis for these bizarre phenomena is the Hasid Ya’abetz myth, according to which those who stood the test at the time of the Spanish expulsion were mainly the amei ha’aretz/balabatim; the Torah scholars failed. Behold how important ignorance is for preserving our tradition. See column 62.

But here it’s not even doubleness. With women and other amei ha’aretz, the person is not even persuaded inside that I’m right. He can’t accept such arguments at all. The phenomenon of doubleness appears specifically among Torah scholars. As I described above, in the discourse I conduct with Torah scholars on various topics, in many cases they are willing to listen and hear my arguments, but in the end, bottom line, of course they won’t agree with the conclusion. Why not? Sometimes because I didn’t persuade them. But usually they won’t agree because there’s no connection between what they think and what is right and what one does in practice. That is the essence of doubleness. The reasons they’ll supply are varied: tradition says otherwise; the greats of the generation say otherwise; we are simply used to otherwise; or with no reason—I think inside X and continue to act as if I think Y. So what good is it to persuade him of X? I’ll achieve no change that way. Somehow we must attack the second layer: not persuade what to think, but address one who already thinks like you and try to get him to internalize that this indeed is his stance (free his imprisoned consciousness and doubleness and bring it out) and to do what he himself thinks.

Analytical Study and Halakhic Ruling

I think the root of the matter lies in the methods of study in yeshiva and kollel. When yeshiva students or kollel fellows learn iyyun (analytical study), they can raise any hypothesis, consideration, or argument; any interpretation, as creative as can be. The sky’s the limit. But when you want to know what to do, you turn to the Mishnah Berurah. “To settle the sugya in accordance with the halakhah” is taken to mean: study Torah entirely freely—but rule halakhah from a given, agreed-upon book.

But of course this is crooked. Many times in the past (see column 582 and elsewhere) I pointed out that “to settle the sugya in accordance with the halakhah” means: study the sugya and rule in accordance with the conclusion you reached in your learning. And if your conclusion isn’t like the Mishnah Berurah? Examine his view carefully and form a stance of your own. In the end you must act according to what came out for you. This disconnect between theoretical study and analysis and the practical conclusion is what underlies the doubleness also in Haredi thought and way of life. In yeshiva we got used to the idea that thought is free, but there’s no connection between the conclusions I reach and the truth and what I’m supposed to do. That is dictated by various know-it-alls.

This principle itself will, of course, be very hard for you to attack; it too is a “halakhah from Moses at Sinai.” But my conclusion is that the only way to crack Haredi stagnation is to attack that very idea: the disconnect between thinking and truth and actual conduct. We must persuade people that if they think differently from what is accepted, or from what the “greats of the generation” say, this is not desire or weakness. It is what that person thinks; it is his truth; therefore he must act accordingly. Those “greats of the generation” were appointed by the Yated Ne’eman system straight from the mouth of Heaven, preferably at an age when they can barely breathe and it’s not clear how aware they are that they are still in this world (that way the control over them is better). Every Haredi knows this, but it still doesn’t stop him from obeying everything they instruct. Doubleness, did I say?…

Markers of Doubleness

There are several phenomena that can serve as indicators or markers of mental doubleness. I’ll note two: absurd arguments and extreme conduct.

If you encounter absurd defensive arguments—especially when they come from someone who seems intelligent—know that he lives in doubleness. He is defending something he himself doesn’t believe. He knows inside that it’s nonsense, but finds himself obligated to defend that thesis because “that is the truth.” See columns 73, 655, 203, and more. This is somewhat reminiscent of the difference between a supporting (or maintaining) derash and a creative derash. In many cases, when the commentators encountered a very dubious derash, they explained that it’s a maintaining derash—the halakhah was known, and the derash came post factum. Their assumption is that a maintaining derash can be less persuasive, since if the result is known one can make do with dubious arguments that support it. So too here. In such discourse with Haredim you feel you’re talking to a wall. For your interlocutor, the conclusion is known in advance, and the only question is how to recruit an argument—however dubious—to support it. In those columns I discussed the phenomenon of arguments that are formally valid yet devoid of any sense and opposed to common sense. Here I add another phenomenon: arguments that lack validity even on their own terms.

Another indicator of a state of doubleness is extremism. In column 330 I noted that an extreme reaction usually reflects the fact that the ideas he fights against have found a foothold within him as well. He is fighting himself and projecting onto those outside. The more extreme the Haredi reaction, the more it is a battle over a principle that is less understood and grounded. When you see them defending a preposterous claim, the advice is to go out to jihad. Thus radio and television, then computers, the internet, SMS and smartphones, all magically became articles of faith of “be killed rather than transgress.” So too with the draft. Any reasonable, sane person understands that here too the Haredi thesis is utterly preposterous. That is exactly why they take to the streets with the militant declaration “we will die rather than enlist” (see the translation I gave above). Keep this rule in hand: the intensity of the battle reflects the weakness of the substantive arguments.

See the war against anyone who dares think—and especially if it moves into action—starting with Rav Leibel, continuing with Rav Inbal, and onward. The chief sin of these two fellows is that they deny the principle of doubleness, which is the supreme Haredi principle: it’s permitted (post factum) to think, but under no circumstances may one draw conclusions, and certainly not act on them.

So, in states of doubleness—when you yourself understand you have no real basis for the thesis you are defending—there are several techniques: crank out absurd arguments from anything at hand for your strange thesis; lean on supernal authorities and mysticism; negatively label anyone who opposes (that apikores); turn the thesis into an article of faith given directly at Sinai; and then go out to jihad. The other side of the coin is that all these techniques can serve as markers of a state of doubleness. If you see any of these, you can assume that the person before you lives in doubleness.

Treating States of Doubleness

A state of doubleness is seemingly immune to argument and persuasion. It’s a black hole with no way out. When you try to persuade someone to change his stance, you must raise arguments that attack his stance and support yours. But with someone living in doubleness, persuading him won’t help, because even if you succeed it will remain inside. He doesn’t conceive that he must also think and act that way. To try to move anything, you must address the second layer: freeing the imprisoned consciousness, or recognizing it and acting by it.

This process has two faces: (a) the psychological face—removing blockages so that the person will think and act as is clear to him himself; (b) the philosophical face—the person living in doubleness can wonder whether the truth lies with his imprisoned consciousness, or perhaps the inner (modern) consciousness is merely the advice of the evil inclination and the truth lies in the external consciousness that accompanies him in practice (the conservative one, “the instructions of the greats of the generation”). He tends to attribute to the inner consciousness a source in desire and see the external consciousness as the truth. We must persuade him that the situation is the reverse.

The first piece of advice is first to identify the state of doubleness, define it, and be persuaded that there is such a thing. Then one can try to diagnose it within yourself or in others. If you can explain this very state to a person, he can open up to the idea that perhaps he himself has an imprisoned consciousness. You can mirror this by looking at other people and groups—members of cults or pagan believers, toward whom we all feel they have an imprisoned consciousness and themselves understand that the thing doesn’t really work and isn’t really right. Then projecting inward to me can help me grasp that perhaps I too am in such a state.

Sometimes we can follow the path of the sage in the tale of the “Turkey Prince”: act on the practical plane and hope that “after the deeds the hearts are drawn.” See column 199. If you bring a person to behave in practice in a different way, at times it will dissipate the false consciousness within which he lives and open him to the possibility that his inner consciousness is the correct one.

Sometimes the obstacle is not intellectual doubt but a psychological blockage. A Haredi person fears losing the community and the sanctions it will impose on him. Here it’s important to see that the mountain is not always a mountain. Sometimes it’s a mouse seen as a mountain. From my experience, if a person acts in a way he himself is whole with, and he has well-formulated arguments for it, the Haredi environment respects it. There aren’t always immediate, heavy prices. I have not-bad experience here. Those fears often stem from lack of self-confidence and inner doubts. Inner confidence and integrity are received with greater respect and honoring outside as well.

Sometimes there are real fears about the results (not the social price). What if I’m wrong? What will be in the heavenly court? How can one arrive there “on the safe side”? And sometimes even if I understand that I’m right in principle, I see the prices of openness (the children secularizing, less fear of Heaven, halakhic sloppiness, etc.). Such fears can be addressed on several planes. First, one can point to the prices of living in doubleness itself. If you’re not whole with yourself, you don’t live well with yourself, and perhaps it’s also hard to convey that to your children and others. So it’s worth considering whether your beliefs differ from what you yourself think. Beyond that, even if you succeed in preserving commitment for your children and your piety, that fear of Heaven and that piety are devoted to the wrong God. You are very devoted to the wrong religion. The assumption that any price is worth paying for religious survival is preposterous. Finally, it isn’t true that prices exist only in open education. Closed education carries very heavy prices—sometimes far heavier than open education. Because that claim is so common (it came up at that parlor meeting), I’ll elaborate a bit more.

A Brief Discussion of the Costs of Closure

The most common claim in favor of Haredi conduct is that conservative education is more successful at preventing the secularization of students. Usually this claim is seen as a winning argument with no answer. It justifies all distortions and neutralizes all counter-arguments. It came up more than once at the parlor meeting too. Let’s examine the claim that seems so self-evident to so many.

First, it’s important to remember that all secularization we know today is the fruit of the conservative education given in past centuries. The Haredi inability to deal with Haskalah and the awakening in Europe in that period is what cooked up for us the products that surround us today—namely, the secular majority among Israel. I think this means the short-term survival achievements must still be examined in the long term. The intensifying disintegration these days indicates that a process has already begun. In the time of the Haskalah, the Haredi conceptions (“anything new is forbidden by the Torah”), which depicted everything new as treif and forbidden and refused to see even a sliver of value in it, set before the youth an impossible dilemma: be righteous (and foolish) or wise (and wicked). Small wonder that many chose wisdom over righteousness and abandoned their religious commitment. Such a faith I too would abandon. That situation is recurring today, and its bitter fruits are already evident and, in my view, will intensify unless Haredism gets a grip and wakes up. So closure and conservatism are a recipe for ruin in the long term. You may win your son/daughter with higher probability, but you lose all your other descendants in the long run.

Beyond that, even factually I’m not sure the picture is so clear-cut. As is known, there is a lot of secularization in the Haredi world. Part of it is outright secularization (there are indirect statistics, since in the Haredi world they don’t tend to address it and share data), and part of it is secularization under the frock coat and beard (the phenomenon of the “anussim”), for which it’s hard to produce statistics. The statistics that are published from time to time show secularization of not insignificant scope, not very different from secularization in the non-Haredi world. Haredism here presents a façade of success, with a frock coat under which lies a fairly hollow space. This too is an expression of the doubleness described above. For Haredim, if externally everything is in order, then there is no problem. This is hollow Judaism.

Furthermore, there’s a very powerful claim I haven’t seen made. The reason Haredi society survives as such is mainly its environment, which provides it with security, health, livelihood, funding and economy, various public services, and above all answers to its questions and difficulties. As is known, the perplexed of the Haredi world don’t go to R. Dov Landau with their questions, but to me. Ironically, I and my ilk have a not insignificant contribution to the survival of the Haredi world. I don’t think we properly understand the meaning of this situation, and I’ll try to sharpen it with a parable.

Think of a Haredi person presenting the following claim: it is far more reasonable and proper not to enlist, because Haredi youth who don’t enlist survive physically (remain alive) far better than youth in other parts of Israeli society who do enlist. As is known, among those who “give their souls” in the tents of Torah in Ponevezh there are very few who pay for it with their lives (that’s about like the slogan “we will die rather than enlist,” which of course is only said because there isn’t even a thought that they will be asked to pay that bill in practice—couch-potato self-sacrifice). The generals of Ponevezh apparently employ strategies far better than those of the IDF, hence their improved results. Would you accept such a claim? (By the way, I’ve heard it with my own ears more than once. I’ve often commented on the embarrassing level and the moral and ethical disconnect of Haredi arguments.) I dare assume you would not. Because the fact that you survive is only because others take the necessary risks and pay the prices required on your behalf.

So too here. If others didn’t study medicine and engineering, serve in the army and police, run all the economic systems—and also think and develop Jewish thought that offers answers to Haredim’s difficulties—Haredi society would not survive one minute. Absurdly, even the Judaism of Haredim is built on others, and certainly their physical existence. Therefore, to use the relative survival of Haredism as an argument against those paying the prices required to sustain it is infantile logic and anti-moral cynicism, at about the level of the draft argument above. It’s exactly the same thing.

And I haven’t even mentioned the terrible costs exacted by Haredi closure: the quantity of sexual offenses in Haredi society; the quantity of suffering and persecution of anyone different and anyone who dares think differently; the quantity of distress of those who don’t fit study; the poverty and suffering of parents who must mortgage their lives to buy an apartment for their sons and daughters so they won’t have to go out to work, God forbid; the racism and discrimination toward Mizrahim; the distress of women who bear an impossible burden and don’t receive answers to basic needs (including spiritual needs); and just the moral cost of parasitism toward the rest of Israeli society. And what about the cost of corruption of the Haredi establishment in every domain just to survive and continue controlling their captive flock? And of course there’s the intellectual cost of such a shallow, low, childish Jewish faith—filled with foolishness and darkness. The conceptual level of kindergarten children, called there “the pure hashkafah” (which came down from Sinai—what a terrible insult to God).

This intellectual closure and these horrific social and moral distortions are prices paid for that closure and that survival (which, as noted, may not even exist in true reality). Are you so sure it’s worth it? I am definitely not sure. Does it seem right to you not to keep Shabbat and not to eat kosher so that Judaism will survive? Then how are all the other commandments and values that are mortally harmed by Haredi closure any different, if these distortions are paid at the same price as preserving true Judaism? There is no logic to this.

Da’at Torah and the Authority of Sages

One of the main barriers to autonomous conduct—i.e., freeing the imprisoned consciousness—is the Haredi ethos of emunat hachamim (belief in sages) and the authority of sages. These are two different principles. Emunat hachamim is the conception that sages generally don’t err (what I’ve often called “substantive authority”)—not only in halakhah but in all areas of life. This is a baseless mystical conception that has undergone monstrous expansion in the Haredi world. The authority of sages is the conception that one must obey them regardless of whether they are right (what I’ve called “formal authority”). Its basis is in the Torah itself, “Lo tasur,” etc.; but it too has been wildly expanded: originally it applies only to the Sanhedrin; later it was extended to the Talmud; today it is attributed to the sages of all generations. It’s not clear how to relate these two assumptions on the map described above—are they part of the psychological barrier or the substantive layer? I think there’s a combination here of an authentic (but mistaken) belief that creates difficult psychological barriers.

I’ve often been asked how I dare disagree with the greats of the generation—those immersed in Torah day and night who have become very great Torah scholars (see for example here). There’s an assumption that they don’t err and that halakhic-learned wisdom carries added value in the general world. In light of what I’ve written, it’s clear that both assumptions are preposterous. One can bring opposing sources and prove that these assumptions lack any basis, certainly are not necessary. I think it’s very useful to demonstrate this via the conduct of various cults, where the members are convinced to place blind faith in the leader and anyone who deviates even slightly is labeled a heretic in the fundamentals. After showing that there is no real basis for these two assumptions, it’s easy to see the analogy between cult conduct and the Haredi world. It’s eye-opening reflection.

As an addendum, we can also attack the method of choosing and identifying the “greats of the generation.” Everyone knows it’s political manipulation by fixers. Everyone knows these are very elderly people who are not really attuned to what is happening around them. Everyone knows they make rather foolish decisions and that their abilities of thought outside the learned Talmudic realm are usually quite poor. If we can persuade a person of this, perhaps the way will open for him to free his imprisoned consciousness and rid himself of the assumption that “the greats of the generation” are by definition right, and therefore even if I think otherwise I must bend my opinion. This can also help rid oneself of the claim of formal authority.

Beyond all this, it’s very important to show the duty of autonomy—that even if those sages were right, as long as we’re not dealing with a Sanhedrin then not only do they lack authority and there is no duty to obey them, but each person has a duty to conduct himself as he himself thinks. This means his inner consciousness—even if it weren’t the right one (i.e., even if the “greats of the generation” were right)—should govern him. I’ve dealt with this more than once and won’t return to it here (see my article on authority and autonomy in halakhic ruling, column 626, and much more). I’ll just note briefly: a person is held accountable for his actions even if he relies on various know-it-all “greats of the generation.” No one excuses an ISIS man who slits throats because he merely obeyed his “great of the generation,” al-Baghdadi z”l. An adult bears a duty and responsibility to examine his path, and he cannot hang himself on other trees—tall or not. In the heavenly court the excuses that you relied on the view (or lack of view) of R. Dov Landau won’t help you. I assume they’ll ask you there why you weren’t Zusha.

Revolutions and Their Prices

Haredi people have often asked me: how and when will change come? How will we make the revolution? They wonder why I don’t go out to a more extreme world war (apart from writing on the site and other venues). I tend to rebuke such wonderers and tell them there is no revolution without prices. They expect others to make the revolution for them, but they are not prepared to pay any price. They won’t come out publicly because they’ll lose the matches, the kollel, the heder, the girls’ school, their social standing, and so on. This cowardice characterizes both rank-and-file Haredim and Haredi rabbis. I already mentioned what I read from Rabbi Tamir Granot (head of the Orot Shaul hesder yeshiva, a bereaved father and activist for drafting Haredim), who told that one of the prominent Lithuanian rabbis told him he is entirely right, but Haredi society is like a bunch of children that someone needs to save from themselves (see column 677). They expect others to do the work for them. That rabbi has matured and understands all this too, but he too will never go out publicly and say it clearly. And there are many more like him (I’ve met more than one or two). Haredi rabbis too are “captured children,” and they too are not prepared to pay the prices. It’s a society imprisoned within itself and imprisoning itself. Leaders are imprisoned by the led, and vice versa.

In the communist revolution and likewise in the Zionist revolution, people gave their lives on the altar of the change they believed in. There was insane self-sacrifice. In the Haredi world there is wondrous self-sacrifice of draft opponents who are willing to die rather than enlist (so long as it’s clear they won’t actually have to redeem that bill, of course). But I haven’t found that self-sacrifice among activists for change. Part of this is doubleness and the doubt that the inner consciousness is the advice of the evil inclination. I once heard in the name of the late Uri Elitzur that extremists have extreme self-sacrifice, and moderates have moderate self-sacrifice. We must understand there are no instant revolutions. Whoever wants a revolution must come out of the closet and be prepared to pay prices. Here no one is asked to give his life, nor anything close. There are prices—and I don’t belittle them—but no one will do the work for you. The only groups that improved their situation are those prepared to go against accepted dogmas and pay the required prices.

Maslow’s pyramid sets a hierarchy of needs. People engaged in basic needs won’t make time to invest in promoting higher ideas. A cobbler who works morning to night will generally not deal in philosophy and repairing society. Many Haredim grapple with not-simple difficulties in their lives—economic, social, personal advancement, philosophical and psychological suffocation, and so on. It’s no wonder they don’t tend to fix the world and are not prepared to partner in it. They are in distress and therefore seek help and answers mainly for themselves.

From my experience, even Haredim ready to join such efforts do so to advance their personal interests (education and schooling for their children, livelihood, and the like). You see this in the drafting of Haredim to the army, such as it is, which is mostly based on the fact that it opens avenues of schooling and livelihood for their future, not really from a desire to contribute to society and the army. That consideration is secondary, if it exists at all. The same holds for other activities aimed at advancing Haredim. The goal is always the Haredim themselves, not advancing society at large. The security and economic danger to the state is a consideration that doesn’t really speak to the Haredi public. It’s the same childish self-focus described in column 677.

The groups that managed to pull themselves out of the pit and advance their status were those that understood they must take their fate into their own hands and even pay prices for it. Moreover, they had to look with a wider gaze at the society in which they operate. So too with Haredim. To solve the problems of schooling and livelihood, they must free themselves from the childish gaze that focuses only on themselves and their distresses—even against Maslow’s pyramid. In the Haredi case it’s entirely clear, because the problems begin with the philosophy and descend to the ground. They imprison themselves because of their manner of thinking and conduct, and it’s not outside groups that restrict their steps. To change philosophy they must understand that their separatism and childishness are the root of the problem. Their conception of Torah is distorted and childish, and their leaders are “like the face of the dog,” as in the famous parable. Therefore, for Haredim this conceptual-ideological-philosophical repair is a necessary condition for repairing the smaller distresses. Involvement in the general society and participating and helping address its distresses are conditions for progress in their own. The combination of Maslow’s pyramid and the cowardice described leads Haredim to a childish self-focus. This is in fact a reflection of the “Noah’s Ark” approach that defines Haredism.

The “Third Path” movement, on whose behalf that parlor meeting was held, tries, among other things, to offer Haredim a connection to the outside world. For those prepared to join the effort, come out of the closet, and pay prices—there is a group here that will help. But no one will do the work for you. This requires treating doubleness—freeing the inner consciousness and realizing it in practice. Haredim are called upon to tear the existing shell and labels and move from the sociological prison to autonomous conduct; from sociology to essence altogether.


Discover more from הרב מיכאל אברהם

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

75 תגובות

  1. The article you wrote is thought-provoking, and I agree that “second-nature” is a widespread phenomenon in the Haredi community. However, I disagree with the claim that it is the root of the problem. In my opinion, second-nature is a symptom of a deeper problem, not the cause.

    To understand the problem in depth, one must ask: What caused this second-nature to develop in the first place? Why do people feel the need to suppress certain internal opinions while at the same time acting completely differently in the public sphere?

    The answer lies, in my opinion, in a deep fear of secularism or assimilation as a result of open-mindedness. (This fear is somewhat justified when you see the phenomena of secularism in Israel and assimilation in the US). This fear has created a system that requires the suppression of internal positions, as long as they remain far from practical influence. The goal is to preserve the Haredi/religious identity from change.

    The root of this perception is the belief that open-mindedness poses a threat to the Haredi way of life, and that there is a need for “tight guarding” to prevent deviation. This perception has created the duality of thought. Therefore, in order to address the phenomenon, the factor that fuels it must be addressed: the fear.

    Do you believe that it is possible to propose an alternative perception that will dispel this fear, and show how it is possible to maintain the traditional Haredi way of life (one that is not tainted with crazy, extreme views), without being drawn into extremism or internal repression? Presenting such a position, in a convincing manner, can not only minimize the duality of thought, but also strengthen the sense of security and authenticity in the Haredi public.

    In other words, addressing the phenomenon will not be achieved by exposing the internal contradiction, but by addressing the ideology that leads to its formation in the first place.

    1. I addressed this in detail in the column, especially in the section dealing with the damage caused by closures and comparisons between the success of closures and openings.
      Anyone looking for an insurance company will not find one. The question is what is the optimum, and of course under the constraints of a moral and religious-halakhic price. In other words, even if Harediism is the optimum in terms of survival considerations (which I do not accept), the price paid for it morally and religiously must still be considered (Harediism is a moral distortion and a religious-halakhic distortion).

      1. You see social phenomena as arising from individual psychological connections, when in fact it is difficult to explain social phenomena only through the attitudes of individuals. When a broad group of people hold a certain belief, there is a broader social reason for this.

        I notice a particularly interesting phenomenon: the difference between Haredi society in the US and that in Israel. While Haredi in the US does lack a systematic and in-depth religious theology (it focuses mainly on preventing assimilation and fearing another Holocaust), it nevertheless adopts, consciously or unconsciously, Western liberal-democratic values. These values are largely devoid of moral extremism compared to Israeli Haredi, which has lost its moral image.

        If people who come from the same society have developed in such different directions — some in Israel and some in the United States — then the reason for this lies in the social and environmental context in which they operate. My conclusion is that Israeli Haredi, and its leadership in particular, understood (even if unconsciously) that without the invention of principles such as “Da’at Torah” and “Kak’asher Yorech” — and other tools that strengthen the leadership’s control — Israeli Haredi society would not be able to survive. Thus, a new religion was created, which gradually replaced the original values that they sought to preserve.

        Therefore, your claim that it is possible to develop a values-based and liberal Haredi society in the Israeli context is not consistent with historical reality. Unless you believe that significant changes have occurred in contemporary reality that could make this possible?

        1. I would love to hear your opinion on the obvious divide between American and Israeli Haredi women.

        2. Israeli Harediism also lacks theology. This is pragmatism.
          In general, I don't think there is a big difference compared to American Haredi. They don't bother to contribute to society in general there either. Only there is no compulsory conscription there and no state funding for yeshivas. The main difference is in their attitude towards livelihood and education, but this stems from constraints. They are not funded there.

          1. In what ways do you think the ultra-Orthodox community contributes less to the general society in the US compared to other citizens? Are you looking for a special altruistic contribution? They pay taxes like everyone else, work like everyone else, and invest in their education and community. What exactly do you think is missing?

            1. They pay taxes because there is a great risk there if you don't do so. They work because there is no choice (the state does not finance it). It is clear that in a country where there are no options to behave differently, there will be no different behavior. This is not wise.
              I argue that civil loyalty is lacking. In the US, the normal norm is different from ours, and therefore you feel it less there. This is exactly what I wrote.
              For example, when the US is in existential danger, I promise you faithfully that the percentage of recruitment among Haredim will be much lower than other populations. When taxes have to be raised, the Haredim will disappear more than others (if only they can and are not afraid). Volunteering for the sake of the entire population (not being absorbed into Haredi society). I bet (not information) that their concern for the environment is lower than other populations.

              1. Even in Europe, where there is a fairly generous welfare policy, the local Haredi public does not behave like the Israeli Haredi, so your claim that the Haredi in the US pay taxes only because they are afraid of the law is incorrect. Besides, most of humanity obeys the laws of the state out of a mixture of fear and understanding the value of law and order. What is the problem with that?
                From my acquaintance with American Haredi, most of them understand the importance of the existence of law and order and economic common sense, which really cannot be said about most Haredi in Israel. In general, the comparison between Israel and the US is unfair. The Haredim in the US are an invisible fraction of the US population of 330 million people. So even if tomorrow morning all the Haredim in the US simultaneously decide to stay home and live on food stamps and Social Security benefits, it won't hurt the mighty American economy. In Israel, the Haredi sector is already 13 percent of the population and doubles every 16 years, so the Haredi's reckless behavior in the labor market and military service will have a profound impact on the country in the immediate future.
                Even if the US were ever to be under an existential threat, it seems to me that the US military would call up a lot of people before it even remembers that the Haredim exist.
                In New York, Haredim, blacks, and Hispanics cooperate and help each other, Haredi emergency squads guard neighborhoods and assist the police. A person does not have to help someone on the edge of the country to receive an exemplary citizen medal. It is enough that you do not burden yourself on the public purse without justification and that you cultivate your own little piece of God while educating yourself in personal responsibility, which really cannot be said about Israeli ultra-Orthodox people in a general way.

          2. The high-flown talk about contributing to society is just empty chatter. Almost no one lives their lives according to the glorified ideals of contributing to society, but rather according to what will advance them professionally and financially (in other words: to gain respect and money).
            No Tel Avivian works in high-tech or law for altruistic reasons, and you know it well.

            1. I completely agree, that's the capitalist idea. Also, regarding conscription, I heard someone named Yaron Brock (a former Israeli and radical capitalist) explain that the very willingness to enlist and fight stems from personal motives, that at the end of the day, it's important to a person that they can live in security and it's clear to them that no one else will do it in their place.

              1. It is precisely about these stupid arguments that I wrote column 655. Time and again it turns out that a person sees from the depths of his heart. A libertarian capitalist sees the whole world through the hole in his own self-interested penny. An ultra-Orthodox with childish egocentrism sees the whole world this way. And so on.
                No one claimed that people go into high-tech for the sake of the nation. A little reading comprehension wouldn't hurt even for those who are fixed like you.

  2. Doesn't this duality also reflect a situation in which a person's intuition speaks? Let's say there are arguments for one side but there is an intuition that there is a mistake on that side. The person is unable to put their finger on the mistake but that is their intuition. Should they discard their intuition and their way of life just because a wonderful logician managed to confuse a letter?
    The blogger Tamir (himself a former Haredi who returned to the question) calls this evolutionary logic. You concentrate on what works and not on what may be theoretically true. The leftists will prove to us by tomorrow that a peace agreement is the desired thing. Reality proves otherwise. Liberals will claim by tomorrow that free sex, including homosexual sex, is the right thing to detail. They will downplay the price of a childless society. Who said that modernism provides a perfect solution? Perhaps the Haredi evolutionary logic is more correct. Harediism is a perfect machine from an evolutionary perspective. All the claims against it are correct but the Haredi system delivers results. Perhaps this secondness reflects a gap between intuition and logic? Who said that logic is right and intuition is not? I don't disagree with the principle (although I disagree quite a bit with the details). I'm just making the argument more difficult. Who said that logic is right?

    1. Absolutely. This is the question I described regarding which of the two consciousnesses is the true one. See also columns 654-655.

    2. I didn't understand the argument for sexual freedom among homosexuals. This is a group that makes up maybe 2 percent of the population. It's a fact that almost all liberals have children.

  3. It's very simple, once they internalize things in practice, they will no longer be ultra-Orthodox and it's important for them to stay in the community, etc., what's all this unnecessary length?! (The example of Torah scholars with a derekh eretz is not serious and it's no coincidence that this system didn't survive and I'm sorry.)

      1. Absolutely not, but that's his identity. People aren't in a hurry to change identities, let alone in conservative societies.

  4. I think it should be written:
    “Why is Haredi filtering needed at all”
    and not
    “Why is Haredi filtering needed because”
    Many thanks to the rabbi for all his articles and work.

  5. I suspect that a fundamental element in this second, which may have been somewhat missed in the column, is the individual-collectivist gap. When you say that a person accepted your arguments, but does not act on them, it is because he accepted the arguments as an individual, but he acts as part of the collective. In the section on "treating second states" you refer to this in the second paragraph (about how perhaps the social sanction is not so bad), but the first and third paragraphs are all individualistic thinking, which I am not sure is relevant to someone who lives in a collectivist consciousness, or at least acts in a collectivist fabric of life.
    Is what is required first of all to extract a person from the collectivist consciousness or from the collectivist fabric of life? I do not know. Perhaps providing a collectivist response, by creating an alternative community (as opposed to convincing arguments or a structured religious perception) is the solution. The best example of this is, of course, LGBT people who live in the closet. Pride marches and the LGBT community, more than giving those in the closet an agenda or arguments for why they should come out (say, arguments of the kind you mentioned, about the difficulties of living in seconds and not accepting who you are), give them a feeling (justified or not) of an alternative community that will accept them. In this sense, changing the axis, as you presented it, or a movement like the Third Path, will not succeed as an idea, but only as a community organization (perhaps even with political dimensions).

  6. Rabbi I had an idea and I would love to hear what you think,
    I think one should be Haredi at a young age and Da'tal at an older age.
    This is a closed education that will open up to the age of 24-25.
    And so for example at a later age to enlist in the army. Towards the age of adult Galaim (18) to start doing Mechina and so on.

    This will be both Torah and Derech Eretz

  7. This Third Path movement is unfortunately simply the old "Mimad" movement in disguise. Not Torah with Derech Eretz, Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Breuer. Perhaps the Haredim are childish, but they are really right that there is no interest in advancing society as a whole. There is an interest in advancing the people of Israel, not the state, which is a tool and unimportant in itself. At the moment, this movement believes in "equality" or "democratic values," which are not values at all (democracy is a procedure, not an essence). Equality goes against the concept that the people of Israel are a family. In a family, family members are discriminated against (and rightly so) over strangers. And certainly over strangers who belong to a hostile people (and who are certainly internally hostile, the vast majority of whom are also hostile). And they certainly do not grant them "corrective" discrimination. The treatment of them should be purely business-like and based on simple fairness (what they pay in taxes is what they will receive in services, not an extra shekel). I saw that you explicitly wrote after the riots of 1981 that, among other things, the Arabs should be given "equality" so that they would stop rioting in the future (as if the situation was not already absurd enough in principle).

    So how can you come to the Haredim with complaints? In a situation where there is a lack of loyalty to the Jewish people (to the Jews in the land), there is no choice but to gather with the group of people who are loyal to you. That is, to the sector.

    I also did not see Rabbi Granot (and the other religious Zionists of his kind) complain about this situation after his son fell. It was precisely the Haredim who were the first to be outraged. If we are talking about equality, then first of all they went on a campaign to stop giving "national insurance" to the Arab public? Only then can you come to the Haredim with complaints. It seems that there is really something more hidden here (and probably unconscious. I have no suspicions about Rabbi Granot (who, by the way, I took a course with him at Herzog College 22 years ago) than a desire for equality, but perhaps simply the ego of religious Zionists who want to educate Haredi and are not simply willing to do business with them if it pays off (and I just hope that these are not classic feelings of inferiority of Gushniks like him towards leftists). Because with the Arabs it certainly does not pay off.

    I myself am not Haredi and I am not Haredi. I studied in Gush and at the Hebrew University (in natural sciences). And with all this, it is clear to me that in practice neither you nor he (Rabbi Granot) are loyal to me and my ilk - in practice. That is, in deeds. Not in words. Anyone who has sided with the High Court is clearly not loyal to the Jews. It is more important to him to appear beautiful and moral in the eyes of the gentiles or the left or even in his own eyes, etc. than to see the Jews Family members. And that's the whole story.
    So it's no wonder that modern Haredim in their hearts don't follow your path. You (and all those who try to talk to Haredim and convince them) are not exactly someone who inspires trust. At least to me. And they probably have more trust in their leaders than in people like you. And I pretty much agree with them on this issue (and not just me. There are quite a few like me in the national religious public who simply understand that the High Court is much worse for the people I ask – that is, for us – than the Haredim). When this Haredi (yes. even the modern…) has financial and mental troubles, he will go to one of these great ones and he will really give him comfort and support and real mental help. You and your intellectual peers will just give him a cold and closed shoulder and send him to some autistic psychologist who will listen to him and charge him 500 NIS an hour. I have a feeling and suspicion (Well-founded) that you have a hidden agenda behind you (let's say jobs for your friends' judges. By the way, I haven't seen anything wrong with any of them to this day. Unlike certain rabbis like Rabbi Pechter, who is a member of the movement and wanted to legalize building a sukkah in a house for emotional reasons like some common Amaretz, and whom you also wrote a critique of here). It's not that I'm some kind of tzaddik and will take responsibility for him. I'm not much better than you, but I won't try to convince someone that I'm willing to take responsibility for what happens to them as a result of changing their ways while their rabbi is willing (and even if he's wrong in his worldview). That's the whole story.
    In my opinion, this movement will disappear just as Simed disappeared in its time.

    1. You have laid out the main points of your doctrine. That is fine, but why are we to blame? How does anything of what is written here, some of it distorted and some of it just hallucination, relate to the Tur and the Third Path?

      1. Because the reason the modern Haredi holds onto his second identity (or consciousness) is that for some reason he has more trust in it in relation to its loyalty to him than in the external society that is trying to convince him to move to it. He tells himself in his heart that there is probably something he does not know and does not see and that his leaders, whom he does appreciate from a Torah perspective (and does not see in them people who are not smart as you write. Maybe detached but definitely not stupid – like Rabbi Kanievsky for example) do see it. And maybe you need a kind of maturity to see this. Personally, I did need maturity to reach a point where I no longer trust the state and its institutions. In other words, it took me quite a while to gain experience in understanding what is really happening in the state. Maybe he is afraid – even if he does not think he is being deliberately deceived - that he is investing in a stock whose true value behind it is significantly lower than the stock in which he is now losing money (I personally do not think so, but today I am already doubting the West). He has two consciousnesses in which he trusts (his personal consciousness and the collective one that is also in him) and he remains in the C.E.

        That is, I – and the Haredim do not have much faith in humanity, which in my opinion and in their opinion, is collectively hypocritical and lying, and this is in the event that it is not also barbaric. And I think that nothing significant has changed in the world since the Holocaust. Therefore, your claims against the Haredim about the simple humanity that they lack require much more incendiary – at least in what concerns the relationship between Jews and other human beings. Certainly if I lived in Zimbabwe – and I am sure that you too – you would not enlist to serve in its army even if it were an existential threat. You would flee (and rightly so) to Australia to work there. Anyone who is a Mensch would not be willing to serve under the command of barbarians and their human animals or state even if he lived among them. The Gentiles are definitely not worth fighting for their countries. It is enough for us to just pray for the peace of the country.

    2. I agree with Mikhi that what you wrote is not really related to the third path. I will just add that according to what you said, everyone should receive what they contribute in taxes, the Haredi society in the current model has long ceased to exist, so it is strange that you glorify a society that cannot really exist (technically) according to your capitalist ideology.

      1. First of all, I answered how the discussion is related to the column and the comments of the Haredim, a response to the response.
        In addition, I did not glorify Haredi society and I do not care about its existence as it is and from it (they do not care about me either. To the extent that they do care about me, I also care about them). I only care about simple justice (or more precisely, the people of Israel, which is the collective to which I truly belong). And accordingly, only about capitalism (in the current social situation). I simply claim that this movement does not care about justice like the left itself – which does not really care about recruiting Haredim but only about controlling its religion (its ideology) and power and lust for power and that's it. And the fact that they do not care about not recruiting Arabs along with granting them National Insurance is affirmative action. After all, Rabbi Granot and Rabbi Miki do not care about recruiting Haredim either, but about receiving budgets from the state, but they have no problem with bribing Arabs with budgets. Rabbi Michi wrote explicitly on the website (that in order to form a government without Bibi and the Haredim, one can bribe the Arabs).

  8. Rabbi Michi
    Where does the motivation to start a new movement and try to lead change come from?
    As a graduate of the Forum of the Jewish Community of Israel, I learned firsthand that this wonderful place with all the interesting people who gathered there was nothing more than a curiosity that did not change Haredi society in any way. On the other hand, history is full of paradigm shifts that happened against all odds, so who knows, maybe this time you will succeed.

  9. The issue of duality reminded me of the verse:
    And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath.

    It is not enough to know something, you must also bring it to your heart.

  10. Regarding Da'at Torah, I highly recommend Benny Brown's article on the subject, which shows how the concept developed and took over Haredi society.

  11. Regarding what you wrote that Haredim study a matter and ultimately rule according to the Mab. After all, you yourself say that someone who is not a bar ha-hay should act in this way. So perhaps the Haredim simply set the bar for reaching the status of a bar ha-hay somewhere at the level of the Mab.

  12. Would there be a possibility that you would debate with a well-known Haredi rabbi?
    This could be very interesting

  13. I read the promo on the Third Path website, it says, among other things.

    “… which in the name of national values and sectoral interests tramples on many other religious and moral values. Judaism has become synonymous with corrupt and alienated conduct, which turns triviality into the main thing and ignores basic values.”

    How can you write such a sentence after seeing how many graduates of the Eli preparatory school (oh, mustard, what fear) have given their lives in the past year?
    What basic values are they ignoring?

    The national religious public is at the top of the world of action – volunteering, the army, enough key positions in industry.
    And the fact that there is a tendency towards mustardism among parts of this public is perfectly fine, since these are the people who continue to lead (as mentioned, the army, volunteering, and more).

    1. I don't know if he wrote it or not, but if so, this isn't the first time it's happened. I've seen him quite a few times here on the site ignoring claims that interfere with his theory, and even after commenters explicitly raised these claims in the comments, he didn't answer them. That didn't stop him from continuing to make his claims in the columns that followed, as if nothing had been said or happened in the meantime.

      1. I actually believe that he is an honest man.

        I expect to hear from him serious examples of religious and moral values that are being harmed by the national religious leadership (political and rabbinical).

        1. I believed it too. But I also believe what I saw and I present my experiences as they are, and everyone will choose whether to believe and whom to believe and what to believe (this is of course subject to verification). This is your choice, of course. The examples you expect from him were actually brought by him in several columns over the years here, so go look for them. Some of them are serious and correct and some of them are very weak.

          But when he spoke a few months ago (also after October 7) once again about a system of deputies, etc. in which the modern Haredim and even just the pragmatists are on his side and the Haredim are on the other side together with the Haredim, someone claimed in a column in response that the Haredim are enlisting and fighting en masse alongside ordinary national religious and even leftists, while the modern Haredim are still not enlisting. He did not address and continues to rant here like last year. So maybe it's really worth it for everyone to reexamine who is loyal to them and why... Maybe the fall of the mustard seeds on the battlefield doesn't make them still on his side, but rather other people, who don't enlist at all, but allow people from his social circle to reach positions of power.

          1. I will just briefly comment on the nonsense written here.
            I addressed the differences in the question of conscription, and explained that it is irrelevant because of the cooperation. I also explained that the non-conscription of Haredim is in no way related to anti-Zionism.
            As for the questions at the beginning, I simply do not see the connection. Their disgusting attitude towards women and coercion and those with different opinions and Haredi parasitism (with a deep sense of inferiority), letters of encouragement to Katsav, the boycotts of Bennett at the Rabbi Center and his persecution, ridiculous halachic conservatism and other sectarian characteristics, are in no way related to the fact that some of them die in battle. What is the point of shmita for a omelet?

            1. My point is what morality/halakhah is being trampled on in the name of nationalism. In everything you have just written, there is nothing that directly touches on the issue of nationalism.

              And in response to your response:

              What degrading treatment of women and by whom?
              Bezalel Smotrich’? Zvi Sukkot? Rabbi Hai David HaCohen? Rabbi Yigal Cohen? Rabbi Lundin? Rabbi Rimon? Rabbi Melamed?

              Regarding the Bennett boycott - legitimate. He is not just another “lying politician”. He led an entire public into denial.
              And in any case, even for those who believe that the boycott is negative, it is still such a marginal thing.
              Is that why you say that moral and halakhic values are being trampled on?

              Katsav's letter – You went back 15 years in time . .
              This was a specific mistake by rabbis who probably believed in his innocence and that the system had fabricated a case against him. A mistake. There is really no connection between this and the title on the website.

              To say that ”political and rabbinical leadership lead to moral and halakhic problems” and – “ridiculous halakhic conservatism” – each to their own. For example, you are very strict about conversion, right? So in the Hardeli community there are those who are perhaps strict about other things.

              In conclusion, I was not convinced at all.
              The religious community (with all that is worthy of criticism) is number one and does not need calibration in my opinion. I have nothing to look for in the movement.

            2. I've also read about the difference in the question of conscription. But it seems to me that the ultra-Orthodox like the Mizrahi or just religious people are not fighting for the state (the home) but really for the Jewish people living here in the land. In contrast to leftists or religious people of your type who are fighting for the state. That is, for power and authority (and once they are not in power, then there is no point in its existence. When I think about it, this was the inspiration for the establishment of a state for the Jews by the father of political Zionism Herzl - the Dreyfus trial. Dreyfus was an assimilated Jew who was not loyal to the people of Israel and tried to integrate into French society and advance in the social ladder and reach a high social status. That is, for power. And in the end he did not succeed because the French really did not see him as one of their own. And Herzl understood that in the end they would always see Jews as gentiles and therefore they needed their own state where they could advance up the social ladder. The Haredim and the other Jews who were loyal to the people of Israel did not have aspirations of this kind at the expense of their loyalty. They only wanted to live in a government that would not persecute them and that would be relatively fair. And when a state was established, they naively thought that it was truly established for the people of Israel). And in the end, despite their Haredi conservatism, the Haredim are still willing to cooperate with leftists, while the Haredim are not. They also still do not boycott those among them who are going to acquire an education in the natural sciences, and perhaps even encourage them. So it feels to me - maybe I'm wrong - that you and Shmukh are simply ungrateful. I understand that there is animosity between you. The question is why is this animosity more significant than the animosity that exists between the Jews and the Arabs who live here.

  14. I went to your movement's website, I think your mistake is that it is based on rabbis who are not identified with observing Halacha (probably rightly so).
    Rabbi Sharki, Rabbi Medan, Rabbi Rimon and others are certainly not conservatives, but they certainly will not agree to join this movement. And it doesn't seem to me that they are just afraid of losing their audience (which in itself I don't see a problem if we become a rabbi who doesn't want to lose his influence on the public and thinks he has a good influence), but that they have a fundamental problem. And these rabbis are identified with and do indeed observe Halacha. Without idle chatter that turns weaknesses into ideals. Think about it.

    Also, one of your problems (and it's probably impossible to escape from it) is telling the truth (in your opinion) directly without masks, that this works and is right for a certain intellectual public, and that itself is the attraction to your words. But instead of its strength, there is its weakness, that a political movement cannot be of intellectuals but can only have advisors behind its back, etc., a movement that will succeed is a movement that speaks to several layers, and this is a leader who knows how to speak to several layers (a person never knew how to bend like a reed..). Think about that too.

    Best regards.

  15. It is not clear to me why the rabbi assumes that every sane person wants the prosperity of the State of Israel in its current form. It seems that such an assumption comes from the depths of the religious Zionist perception, even if the person who makes it sees himself as no longer belonging to this stream.
    Simply put, anyone who reads Parashat Behukoti, Parashat Ki Taboo, etc. carefully, understands that there is no chance that we will prosper over time in the current form.
    Many still see life in this country as a continuation of exile, "the exile of the great Arabs," etc., and nothing that has happened since the establishment of this state has made them change their minds. They live here as they live everywhere in the world, under the monarchy that has been imposed on them.
    For me, for example, even though I grew up in religious Zionism, and I am still part of it, and my ancestors are Holocaust survivors, and my children serve in the army, among me, and I will certainly not stop supporting them, it is still very difficult to say in prayer "Bless the State of Israel." Recently, I started saying "Bless the Jewish settlement in the land and Israel."
    What does this pair of words "State of Israel" mean? Laws that denigrate the Torah, public desecration of the Sabbath as a policy, an unjust trial, an unimaginable amount of "DatLishim"... (Maybe after October 7th something changed, it's hard to know yet).
    All this despite the fact that of course many good things are also happening here. Still, what are our chances of surviving here as a collective in the current format?
    Writing out of great frustration, I would really love to hear an answer.

    1. I don't know about you, if I lived in the United States or in (non-Nazi) Germany, I would really like and it would be very important to me that the country succeed, not because I see the country as a value, I'm light years away from that. But mainly because in the democratic concept (where the people are the sovereign) the success of the country is also my success in a personal sense, and at the end of the day it directly affects me. If you are someone who doesn't like to live a good life (in the material sense) then I can really understand you. Otherwise I don't really understand the text.

      1. I too am in favor of a good material life and democracy, but I find it hard to believe that this will be possible in the long term in this form of the “State of Israel” which grossly violates the contract that gives us the right to live here – the contract with God, as it is enshrined in the Torah.

        In fact, the “state” was founded with this violation engraved on its flag, and as long as this does not change, the catastrophes here will probably not stop, unfortunately.

        This is the (Haredi, but not only) perception that the rabbi presented as outdated. And I did not understand why he thinks it is outdated.

        Of course, this does not justify any anti-social behavior in my opinion.

      2. The “State of Israel” was founded on the violation of the contract with God, which allows us to live in this land on the condition that we keep His commandments.

        I can pray for a good life for the people living in this land, a material life, a spiritual life, and a good democratic life, but it is difficult for me to pray for the “state” in its form as one who is drowning and crawling in His hands.
        I also do not believe that the catastrophes here will stop, as long as the “state” continues to grossly violate this basic contract.

        I do not understand why the rabbi presents this concept as outdated.

        Of course, I do not justify antisocial behavior on the part of any sector.

        1. There is a difficult logical problem here. The question of whether the state will survive or not is a matter for the prophets. My discussion was about whether I want it to survive, not whether I predict that it will survive.
          Beyond that, the Rabbi of Brisk has already said that our suffering is not caused by the secular but by the religious. The secular are mostly rapists. The religious and their leadership, with their depraved behavior, are criminals.

          1. What the Rabbi of Brisk said today is no longer true. Even tomorrow all the ultra-Orthodox and religious will become saints of God, the left, which today is progressive in its beliefs (and even those who call themselves the “sane right”) will not change. There is no question of rape here. Rather, there is a question of a different faith and religion. He will not suddenly stop believing in the non-existence of collectives (except for the collective of those who believe in the non-existence of collectives). This is his religion and he adheres to it fanatically. He will not change anything and he will continue to hate the people of Israel because it is the most collective collective there is. Sometimes anti-Semitism simply exists and does not depend on what the Jews do, except that they stop trying to please the Gentiles and here in the land in the eyes of the left and the secularists (and in your eyes too) and do what is good for them (and right) and trust in God, the Almighty, and that is it. Sometimes there are wicked people in the world and that is it

    2. I feel the same way as you. Even without following his teachings and publicly desecrating Shabbat. But the law of injustice and selective enforcement, and the evil cry out to the heavens. Ahab won his wars without deaths or injuries and by a miracle. Even though the entire nation of Israel worked for him. Because they were united and did not speak slander (did not inform), and this is in contrast to the time of David, where there were worshipers of God but spoke slander. Because they informed on David to Saul. But for the left, even desecrating Shabbat is not enough, but also the disintegration of the Jewish nation and the preference for enemy Arabs over Jews. And not only that and as if to increase the fury of the nose, but religious people like Rabbi Michi joined them.
      Regarding the blessing of the state, if they had allowed me, I too would have changed the wording. Although the sages spoke of the well-being of kingdoms like Babylon or Rome. But the state is coming in giant strides to surpass Rome and Babylon in wickedness and its obscurity

      1. I don't blame the left for the problem. The right today is no better. And in this I actually agree with Rabbi Michi.
        But in the overall idea that a secular sovereign entity can exist here with impudence and audacity towards heaven – over time in peace and tranquility.
        Of course, there is no chance that this can happen and we will continue to eat the sword.
        Religious Zionism is naive. What did they think? That they would succeed in influencing and in the end the country would change?
        The one who changes is religious Zionism. They ignore both sections. So many religious divisions and now so many losses. How sad.

  16. Something I saw this morning and thought it was worth adding, there is an article on the Haredi Rooms website about the Haredi opposition to the new song “Even Better” that is being played these days. Apart from the ridicule in the war on the song, the perception that is revealed there is extremely ridiculous. I will not link to the entire article, but one line caught my eye that really connects well to what the rabbi wrote here:
    “He further cites in the introduction that one of the overseers who heard the words of the song, asked in amazement: “Did someone who observes Torah and mitzvot compose this song?!”, after all, it is against the entire faith and the foundation of the ’Chofetz Chaim’.” ”
    So much for his holy language, and thus we see that the principles of faith were established by the Chofetz Chaim, and beyond them there is no room for reflection.

    1. You can only make claims about this to the Lithuanians. Among the Hasidim, the tenets of faith go back quite a bit. Even further than the Baal Shet.

  17. With your permission, I will ask about a relatively side point.

    You mentioned sexual abuse in Haredi society. Are there any statistics on this that I can look at?

      1. Do you know the Haredi argument that it is better for a man to deal with children rather than with a man's wife?

        1. I admit that I have not heard such an argument
          But I have heard that sexual abuse of children is not such a serious thing because the Torah did not address it.

      2. I looked at the report, here is the summary:
        According to Finkelstein, these data do not indicate that the rate of sexual abuse in ultra-Orthodox society is higher than in the rest of the population, because they clearly also reflect the trust of the various groups in welfare agencies.

      3. It could be that the sensitivity level of the Haredim is simply very high.
        For example, it is clear that among secular people a sexist remark between a boy and a girl would not be considered harassment (almost always).
        Among the Haredim, someone would probably complain in the same situation, and that would count in the statistics.

        I think that the count should simply start above a certain threshold. For example, rape or sodomy or committing an indecent act, these are by all accounts equally serious for all sectors

          1. I disagree. These figures do not sound reasonable. There are probably people like this everywhere and their Haredi will not save them from their misery. There is probably also a bond of silence there. But how can we even know such things? Why should I believe a report compiled by people who are not from this public and who are probably eager to educate them, as is usually the case with all officials in state institutions. To the same extent that Haredi will cover themselves up, secularists will also try to “expose” them. It is not clear.

  18. I propose a more modest theory. Perhaps modern Haredim understand all the problems in Haredi society and still choose to take the best part of it? I mean, Haredi conservatism has a certain value, despite its shortcomings. Those moderns do not see the elders of the generation as prophets with the Holy Spirit, and do not even necessarily vote for Haredi parties (many Lithuanians vote for Shas, for example, and not for what their elders of the generation teach), but they see great value in cultural and psychological influences (which you yourself have attributed importance to in another context). My intuition and that of many others in the world is saturated with temptations that only grow stronger, if we do not hold on to some conservative communal anchor, everything will completely crumble. We see value in rabbis who deal exclusively with Torah and halacha all their days; we see value in matchmaking “meetings” rather than unlimited dating, and we see value in moderate and measured exposure to external culture. This is not seconds, this is complexity. Walking on the seam line to preserve the good things in Haredi.

    There are many problems that deserve and need to be corrected, but our desire and hope is that the change will happen within the Haredi path and not in a third path… and you know what? This change is happening, in my opinion, big time. Exposure to other opinions has increased significantly within the sector (the Haredi filter ‘Rimon’ also allows this, including reading on your website..), many more are going to academic studies and even to tracks in the IDF, only last Saturday I was exposed to the fact that a guy I thought was a tight-knit man is deep into medical studies at a strictly secular university. This is not something you would have encountered in the past.

    Another thing, I see value in extremism, because that is what ultimately preserves the middle line… For example, in the debate over legal reform, I thought those opponents were delusional, but I still understood that if it weren't for their war, the reform would have gone to bad places... Sometimes you need the extreme, even if it's unjust, to balance the ship.

    1. She didn't go to any bad places. She would have brought back the situation that existed here until the mid-1990s, when there was strict democracy here and no one complained.

  19. The Haredi problem is mainly a problem of society as a whole and not a problem of the individual, meaning that if the individual decides to make a change, it will not cause a significant change (say, if he decides to enlist, is it significant for the army that there is one more soldier?!) And the whole reason to make a change is in the name of the categorical order, and here I asked whether the categorical order is worth paying a large price for?
    Do you think there is a price that is not right to take for the sake of change, say, breaking up a family and the like?

  20. There is a forum on the Reading Rooms website to boycott a doctor who spoke out against the Haredi. One smart person suggests firing her and replacing her with a Haredi doctor.

  21. It seems that the rabbi is wrong in dismissing the rational aspect of the Haredi method in the way he criticizes it for believing in God. Essentially, Harediism is a pragmatic framework built around the true value of believing in God and the Torah from heaven. As such, there is a lot of arbitrariness in it, as there are in schools and the like’ authorities that one has no choice but to accept. However, the rabbi disagrees about the standing of any “Haredi law” against the values of common sense”. Of course, in a nutshell.
    It is true that most Haredim will formulate this with infinite distortions, but here it seems that just as the rabbi is wrong again in inducing the Haredi Torah on the common arguments. That is, in any combination, philosophical or sociological, most of them will formulate the ideology with distortion, whether from dogma, or from intellectual negligence. In other words, Rabbi Inbal is enough for me, as he clearly formulates most of the main points of Harediism (I was exposed to him and his thoughts, he is indeed a bit “excessive and punished”, but he is Haredi and indeed rational, and that is what is important for the purpose of the argument), so that I will not move to the third path. The fact that most Haredim are stupid, let's say, does not justify the transition.

  22. The Gemara already shys away from ruling on the basis of mere study in the Beit Midrash, and as it says in practice in Baba Batra. Therefore, it seems to me that the problem begins with the inflation of Torah students, which has led to a significant devaluation of the value of those who study, in contrast to the past when there were fewer students, but those who did study stood by their opinions.

  23. I think you're missing a critical point here (I skimmed through it, maybe you really touched on it here)
    It does seem more appropriate to develop independent thinking, but to whom? Any rabbi who starts to disagree with the Mishnah because it seems to him that it will ultimately lead to the destruction of the Torah, most people are not really capable of expressing a proper halachic position in front of a real halachic arbiter, so it's clear that when he wants to know halachic law, he will turn to an authority, like that on any issue related to Judaism. Do you really think that an average rabbi can express an opinion on halachic law against the Mishnah? If you wouldn't trust him, then why would he trust himself?
    Turning to authority is the most logical default, at least for most people.
    The same goes for the principles of faith and the same goes for every issue in the world.

  24. “Of every exception and wave who dares to think differently”. Should say “And all”.
    Also there are some places with a double space.
    Yes”

Leave a Reply

Back to top button