Another Look at the Hostage Deal (Column 666)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
The public discussion about a hostage deal in the Swords of Iron war has gone through several stages and phases. At first it was set against an entry into Rafah, then against holding the Philadelphi Corridor, and more—never with a clear number of hostages to be returned, and certainly not how many of them are alive or dead. This is a one-sided debate conducted among ourselves, focused on what we are giving. No one talks about what we are supposed to receive, since Hamas is not really a party to this discussion. It seems they are not interested in a deal at all. Because the debate is so one-sided, it’s no wonder that every time the government is blamed for clinging to these reasons and thereby sabotaging the deal—after all, there is no other side to the debate. As Shimon Peres once said, this isn’t “give-and-take” but “give-and-give.”
Thus, on the face of it there is no hostage deal on the table at all, and the bitter arguments about it are only among us, while Hamas sits on the sidelines rubbing its hands with glee. These “deals” are at most fantasies and wishful thinking for some of us. We are busy clapping with one hand and wonder why no sound comes out. Still, I thought it worthwhile to present another look at such a deal. I have done so more than once already (see Columns 607, 608, 611, 627, and more). In recent weeks several questions again arrived in the Q&A (Responsa) about my view on a hostage deal (see for example here, here, here, here and here, and in the talkbacks to Column 664). Some pointed to contradictions (which never existed) in my words, and also raised arguments—usually not very convincing—in favor of a deal, as expected in the psychotic state we are currently in. Therefore I thought it worthwhile to add another current column on this topic.
Two Options—and No Third
One can argue about the importance of each parameter and its standing relative to returning the hostages (how many of them?), but that argument is pointless, since it seems there was never really a deal on the table. Therefore, there is also no indication that any of those parameters actually scuttled it. On the contrary, the Americans say that Israel actually agreed and moved toward them, and Hamas is the one that keeps torpedoing the deal—something that was, of course, obvious from the outset. Already in Column 611, written about two months after the October events, I wrote that in my opinion the public discourse on this subject is based on lies, mainly on the part of the government. It speaks of achieving several goals: restoring security to the Gaza envelope, eliminating Hamas, and returning the hostages. Its opponents demand returning the hostages (without stating it explicitly, they in effect demand this at any price; see also Column 664). They indeed espouse a foolish position, but at least they are consistent. By contrast, the government’s goals for the war are, of course, mutually contradictory. You cannot both win and also return the hostages. Since then it has become ever clearer—what was obvious from the outset—that we have only two alternatives before us: continue fighting to the end, or forgo fighting altogether—in effect, surrender:
- The option of continuing the fighting until the goals are maximally achieved (I don’t call it “total victory” because that phrase has already acquired a cynical connotation) obviously entails giving up on the vast majority of the hostages (and by now it is clear that most are dead).
- The second option entails giving up all the other goals in the hope of returning the hostages. This, of course, assumes—dubiously—that Hamas will agree under the sword of renewed fighting. The possibility of getting them all back seems to me a pipe dream even if we choose this option. Hamas, unlike us, is an intelligent organization; it will not give up the only card it has against us. Moreover, choosing this option entails forgoing fighting in the future as well, since without clear guarantees Hamas will not agree to any deal. As noted, there are intelligent and determined people on that side, unlike on ours. Beyond that, after we leave Gaza there is no chance the world will let us return—even aside from the question of guarantees (see a wonderfully graphic explanation here).
These are therefore the two options, and there is no third. Anyone who says otherwise is simply delusional or lying. That was clear to any reasonable person from the outset,[1] but today there is no one who doesn’t understand it. As noted, the families of the hostages understand this and therefore demand choosing the second option (a deal at any price), and I assume that at least today the government ministers also understand this but choose the first (the accusations that they have given up on the hostages are entirely correct; only that this is not a reproach but their considered choice). The talk we hear from them about both war and hostages (again, I’m not speaking about rescuing a hostage or a body here and there) is mutually agreed-upon deception, driven by street pressure and the discomfort of the hostage families.
The choice between these two options seems to me self-evident. We’ve seen that, as far as the hostages are concerned, there is no significant difference between the two options—at most, a slightly larger number of hostages might be returned in the second option, and even that is doubtful (to date we have not even demanded a proper list of who is alive and who is dead, so why wouldn’t they murder all of them before returning them?!). Reason dictates that we should at least try to achieve as much as possible of the war’s other two aims: eliminating Hamas and providing security to the Gaza envelope.
The Psychosis
As I have already written, the hysterical demonstrations for a hostage deal ensure that none of the goals will be achieved. If Sinwar sees that murdering hostages only improves his position, why would he agree to a deal and return living hostages?! The obvious conclusion he should draw is that he must refuse a deal and murder more and more hostages, thereby further tearing Israeli society apart and improving the terms he will receive for any deal—if he ever decides to make one. Every small child with a bit of common sense understands this, but it seems our media, generals, Brothers-in-Arms, and the families of the hostages (though in their case this is understandable) have completely lost it. They operate in wondrous symbiosis (even if not intentionally—this is clinical blindness) with Sinwar against the State of Israel and against their own interests.
All this shows that the issue touches raw nerves and arouses emotions (see, for example, this hateful column, one of many), and it is no wonder that the polemics about it resemble our usual debates: the hurling of unreasoned slogans, hatred, incitement, and false accusations. This exists on both sides, of course, but as I have already noted, my sense is that it is far stronger among those who support a deal and the protest organizations. There is wild incitement and direct accusations of murder against the ministers and the prime minister, without blinking. One day about a week ago I kept hearing in every news bulletin the words of Einav Zangauker, one of the main activists among the hostage families, calling on the government to stop the incitement against the hostages. I would like to say I was surprised to hear that from someone who engages day and night in wild incitement and is not imprisoned only because she is a hostage family member (see here for one of many examples), but I was not. As noted, the “discourse” has long since entered clinical realms.
Thus in recent weeks (especially since the murder of the six hostages) I have written that we are in the midst of a psychotic assault: a mass hostage psychosis. This is not a metaphor or a cynical remark. I mean a factual description. It is indeed a psychotic attack of the crowd. This psychosis causes people to take steps that will not advance even their own objectives; to ignore the insane prices at stake; to incite and accuse opponents of the deal of abandonment and indifference to the value of life and mutual responsibility (and of course to silence them); to refuse to hear or voice any counter-argument; and to do all this with absolute certainty, in full cooperation with journalists, generals, and commentators—precisely against the side that is not to blame. Part of this is accusing parts of the coalition of messianism (the fashionable pejorative of our time), even though, even if there is something of that there (and I’m not at all sure), one thing is clear to me: this moral-strategic debate about the deal has nothing whatsoever to do with messianism. It’s simply unrelated—but psychosis does not heed rational considerations.
The families have full justification. Their grief and distress—and that of their loved ones in Gaza—are insane, and this is a quite reasonable outcome of the despair into which they have fallen from the dead end. The false accusations are cries of despair and can be understood. But all this sits atop a political agenda (anti-Bibi and his coalition), and many exploit it well. As for those who encourage this psychosis—there is no place for leniency toward them.
And still, being psychotic does not mean that everything you say is nonsense. I would not want to fall into the opposite psychosis. Therefore I wanted to focus on one type of argument and examine it on its merits.
The Argument
One argument from opponents of a deal is that we must not prefer the lives of the hostages (certainly not bodies) over the lives of many who will be harmed in the future as a result of such a deal. In Column 608 I discussed this argument, explained its rationale, and explained why I personally do not agree with it. In my view, in a deal of hostages for imprisoned terrorists we should prefer the hostages. But the debate over this argument is hypothetical, as it completely ignores the other consequences of such a deal. I have already explained that there will be no deal (perhaps for a small number of hostages that won’t change the situation—and even that is unlikely) of hostages for terrorists; so why discuss it? There will be no deal that does not end the war and allow us to return to Gaza. I already noted that the talk about resuming fighting “if needed” is, at best, empty fantasy and, at worst, a gross lie and denial of reality. The two options presented above are the only ones and there is no other: a deal in exchange for total capitulation (if Hamas even agrees to return all the hostages—I assume not), or continued fighting and giving up on the hostages (that no longer depends on Hamas). The price of a hostage deal is at the very least a final cessation of fighting, surrendering entire regions in the north and south and the security of tens and hundreds of thousands of their residents, losing the ability to confront the Iranian proxy forces that are constantly growing on our borders, and a future clash with them under far less favorable conditions for us. Anyone who thinks it is reasonable to pay such a price for a few hostages (some of whom are bodies) lives in a moral and strategic world entirely different from mine (and I am trying to speak gently).
The Same Argument as an Analogy
A few days ago I saw a column by Dana Gennusar in Haaretz that presents an interesting analogy attempting to undercut that argument—namely, why it is right to prefer the lives of the hostages over future risk to other lives. As noted, the hypothetical argument that ignores the other prices actually required by such a deal I already treated in Column 608, where I explained why I in fact agree with it (a deal that required only releasing terrorists, even all of them, would in my eyes be worth the price). But here I wished to address this analogy precisely because of its force. At first glance it seems very persuasive—and the question is what we should do with such first impressions.
Because sometimes the articles are not accessible to non-subscribers, I will bring the passage in full:
Execute Smokers, Shoot Extra Children, Cull Texting Drivers
After one of the protests outside the Knesset, in late spring or winter’s dusk, when “the rock of our existence” was still “Rafah, now!” and not the Philadelphi Corridor, I sat to rest on a bench, bedraggled from heat and despair, with a protest sign beside me, frayed from rain and use: “The picture of victory—return of the hostages.” A young Haredi man passed by, looked at the sign, and stopped: “I’m with you, but you lost me.” “Who is this ‘you’ that lost you?” I asked. “I’m Dana, nice to meet you, and who are you?” He is a law intern, and you could feel the delight in pilpul and debate, typical of young students and scholars. We walked together down the street, a young legal scholar and a tired social attorney. How can you prefer them, when the price is that many others will die? “You prefer to save people with faces and names over victims whose names are not yet known,” he flung at me, waving the utilitarian moral theory that supposedly justifies an objective accounting of utilities as the basis for deciding a moral dilemma. “But they are in danger now; they are victims of abandonment,” I replied, appalled. “When you see a person drowning, will you make calculations and speculations, or jump in to save him?” “And if you see a ship with 150 drowning, and another with 1,500 drowning, whom will you save?” he asked. “But the 1,500 are theoretical,” I said (not to be confused with 1,500 who already materialized because they were neglected in advance calculations), “and the state has tools to face the danger, even if terrorists are released and we withdraw from the Strip. Will you sacrifice real people, suffering hell at this very moment, for them?” I tried, but did not persuade. At that stage I realized that though we grew from the same soil, we are rooted in moral conceptions between which a geological rift has opened, and we stand on opposite sides upon tectonic plates moving away from each other. Symbolically, we parted ways at the junction opposite the Prime Minister’s Office. |
Up to here I actually agree with her approach, as explained in my aforementioned columns. But now she moves to the following analogy (please ignore the wild, characteristic incitement in the first paragraph):
I address myself—not to the ruler of Philadelphi and his cold-hearted cronies who choose the strategy of preventive sacrifice for personal reasons (whether the sacrificed be the hostages, war dead, wounded protesters, equality, human rights, morality and justice, or the state), and not to the demonstrators at junctions under the flag of unity. The latter, their intentions are surely good, but they are too weak to see clearly the harm, and in practice they sacrifice the victim and stand with the abuser, for the sake of quiet and the appearance of a perfect family. I address, then, all those who support the strategy of sacrifice on moral grounds and ask for their support for other necessary applications of that strategy.
Sacrificing the hostages now to prevent harm to many in the future is like “culling” COVID patients during the pandemic so it won’t spread and kill many According to the Israel Cancer Association (2019), about 800 people die in Israel each year as a result of passive smoking. Since each smoker affects on average more than one person—the conclusion is that a fixed number of smokers must be executed each year, at least a few dozen. Many dangers lie in wait for humanity due to the rate of population growth, and in particular for the residents of crowded Israel. According to forecasts, by about 2040 Israel will rise from fourth place to first in population density among OECD countries, and this will cost lives. As a preventive strategy, already now we must permit and maintain only two children per family, at most. Those with more than two children should be asked to starve their extra children, or shoot them. This experimental culling policy is applied to wild boars, jackals, and the wretched dogs of the Gaza Strip that flood the south, and under its banner we accept with almost no objection the collateral damage to the children of Gaza—after all, who knows which of them will grow up to be a terrorist. We should, of course, also have actively culled COVID patients in advance to prevent the spread of the pandemic that endangered many. And in general, overcrowding in hospitals endangers lives, so we should avoid treating the elderly and the ill, on the basis of a comparative calculation of total life expectancies. Not to mention parents who drive their toddlers without seat belts, standing in the car next to an open window (I encountered two such cases just this past week), drivers who text while driving, those caught running a red light or ignoring a stop sign, and of course office-holders in food and beverage companies who stuff the public with sugar and carcinogenic food colorings. For all of these, the solution is preventive sacrifice. The “preventive sacrifice strategy” was famously attempted on 11/4/95, when one human being was sacrificed, ostensibly to prevent further killing of those called “victims of peace” (and in practice to hold on to the soil of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza forever), but unfortunately it seems an error fell in the utility calculation, and here we are today, living within death surrounding us on all sides. |
Her main claim in this latter part is that whoever accepts a “preventive sacrifice” strategy should also kill COVID patients, or parents who drive their children without belts, smokers, and texting drivers. In all these cases there are future casualties expected. True, in each individual case no one is necessarily harmed, but in large numbers this is the reasonable expectation. Seemingly this is just like releasing terrorists to free hostages.
Before you get angry and dismiss her as antisemitic or pro-Hamas, I suggest stopping for a moment and thinking—examining the argument and calmly forming a position as to whether it persuades or not. This is a very important skill that is lacking among us. Pause the gut and think coldly about arguments. For me this is relatively easy here, since, as noted, I actually agree with her conclusion and prefer the lives of the hostages even at the price of releasing all the terrorists we hold. But this analogy, which at first glance looks very persuasive and fits my stance, nevertheless left me uneasy. I felt there was a problem in it. My options were, of course, to mock it and dismiss it with straw as foolishness without giving reasons; or, alternatively, to take the opportunity for an exercise in cool thinking, detached from emotion. To do so, we must devote more thought to this analogy, examine what exactly bothers me in it (especially since the conclusion fits my position), and whether the problem isn’t in me. I remind you I am speaking only about the argument of hostages for terrorists and future murder; other considerations are not on the table in this hypothetical discussion.
A Note on Paradoxes and Intellectualism
Reading this argument, I can’t help but recall Columns 654–655, where I discussed intellectualism. Among other things, I described a dilemma between an argument that seems logical and a conclusion that is patently absurd (as usually happens in paradoxes). I explained there that intellectuals tend to prefer the argument over common sense. This is their advantage (openness to surprising conclusions), but in many cases, in just that, they also fail (departing from common sense). I quoted Orwell’s remark about the nonsense of intellectuals. My feeling here was similar. It’s completely clear she is talking nonsense, yet the argument and her analogies themselves sound very logical, no?
I explained there that in the face of a paradox we have three options: (1) adopt the argument and its conclusion (and reject common sense—be open to the fact that it sometimes misleads us); (2) find a flaw in the argument and reject the conclusion (that is, remain with common sense); (3) remain undecided (if we didn’t find a flaw in the argument but it is very clear to us that the conclusion is wrong). I also showed why it is not correct to say that the last two options express intellectual dishonesty. Since I have basic (if not absolute) trust in common sense and my intuitions, the first step I take with such paradoxes is to inspect the argument and see whether it contains flaws. That was also my feeling here. The conclusion actually seemed correct to me, but the argument (analogy) seemed very problematic. So it’s worth re-examining it.
Counter-Examples
In the responses to that column I found two examples of counter-analogies. Here is the first:
According to this approach, we could also move the border fence closer to Be’eri if Hamas sets it as a condition for releasing the hostages—because it’s only land; there are people suffering who were abandoned, and we will know how to prepare. Incidentally, calling sober realism and risk management “utilitarian morality” is not a very successful salad.
The observation—raised by several commenters—regarding her problematic use of the term “utilitarianism” has something to it (she would have done better to say “consequentialism”), but that is not our concern here. The commenter’s claim is that if we belittle future risks, then we should pay any present price to save any person in present danger.
The second example is this:
Each year we could save hundreds of people with expensive drugs not included in the national health basket. For budgetary reasons we don’t purchase them, knowing people will die. If Highway 90 (the Arava road) had been widened ten years ago, dozens of lives would certainly have been saved. It wasn’t done due to budget prioritization. These are relevant examples. The analogy of actively killing people—besides being childish—is not relevant to the thesis/argument you’re trying to make.
Here are examples of preferring present savings over future risks. The writer, of course, assumes that in these examples the columnist would agree (I’m not sure she would).
I will just note that these counter-examples don’t indicate a flaw in her argument; they only sharpen the fact that similar arguments lead to problematic conclusions. At most this is motivation to look for a flaw in the argument—or perhaps proof that such a flaw exists—but to reject it we must point to the flaw itself. Still, I think the smugness and dogmatism with which she writes—a manifestation of total confidence in her own righteousness—are truly absurd (though very typical of the Church of Haaretz writers and readers). The examples brought here, and many others—even if they don’t identify the flaw in the argument—prove that such a flaw is there. That suffices to show we are dealing with a monad (see Column 664) that echoes among members of the church the dogmas they presuppose as absolute truths (this is one of the roots of the psychosis mentioned above). When you are unable to see that there is another side, you are convinced your conclusion is correct, and then you very easily fail in presenting faulty arguments for it.
So What Is the Flaw in the Analogy?
The opposing examples we encountered hint that a “preventive sacrifice” argument is not absurd on its face (as the columnist assumes), but is also not absolute (as some of those she criticizes assume). It probably depends on the circumstances of each case we discuss. Therefore her analogy is indeed meaningful in showing proponents of preventive sacrifice that their seemingly persuasive argument—because of its arithmetic nature (comparing body counts between two options)—is not so clear-cut. She shows them that there are implications under which they, too, would not accept this consequentialist thesis that leads to a preventive-sacrifice approach. On the other hand, it’s clear there will be situations in which she herself would accept such a thesis (even with more extreme numbers—e.g., if it were one hostage versus releasing tens of thousands of terrorists. I didn’t see demonstrations like that for the release of Avera Mengistu; and likewise in the examples above).
I think the fundamental flaw in this analogy—beyond the question of the respective weights on the two sides of the equation—is that in all the examples she brought it is a matter of present murder in order to save lives in the future. But in our case regarding the hostages, we are speaking about indirect and uncertain killing. It is not a decision by us to murder the hostages, but rather a failure to act to save them. Their murderers will be Hamas. Moreover, with regard to the hostages it is quite possible that some will be saved by the IDF—by chance or by planned operations—as has happened so far. If so, our comparison is between two risks, both indirect, future, and uncertain: to the lives of the hostages or to the future lives lost due to releasing the terrorists. Here there is more room for numerical comparisons (how many lives we will pay if we make a deal and if we don’t). The term “preventive sacrifice” is actually more precise (assuming “sacrifice” here does not mean ritual slaughter but rather not saving). But the analogies she brings against that expression ignore this meaning and speak of murder, not sacrifice. That is demagoguery.
I will add: every combat operation of the IDF is a present sacrifice of soldiers for future aims—which, incidentally, will not necessarily cost us more human lives. Civilian normalcy is also a very relevant consideration. The Entebbe rescue, or the attempted rescue of Nachshon Wachsman, also ran counter to that (purely arithmetic) logic. True, in all those cases no specific soldier is sent to his death; all the soldiers take risks and some will likely lose their lives (see Column 530 and much more on the difference between an order to sacrifice life and an order to risk it). Still, the expected net benefit in human lives is not necessarily positive in all those cases—and yet such actions enjoy broad public support here.
Inconsistency
It is worth noting that the confusion she creates (apparently deliberately) between murder and sacrifice suffers from the same flaw she attributes to her opponents: consequentialism. If it makes no difference whether we kill with our own hands or merely “sacrifice” (=fail to save), what is that if not consequentialism? The view is that what matters is the number of souls lost, regardless of whether by act or omission. But if so, why does the consequentialism of her opponents seem to her more fundamentally problematic? I remind you that in Column 608 I invoked the well-known trolley problem that examines precisely this point (consequentialism, which views failure to prevent as murder, versus a deontological ethics of action that distinguishes between not preventing and killing).
Continuing this line: if the situation were that we had limited medical equipment and had to decide whom to save with it—smokers or texters versus others—I definitely think we should prefer the latter. Here it would be a matter of not preventing harm or not saving, not of murder. But from there to the conclusion that we must murder the texters or smokers—the distance is very great. Note: precisely because I am not a consequentialist.
A Note on Right and Left
In the background there is of course also the difference between right and left, which, in my opinion in this matter, is essential rather than a flaw—or a spurious correlation (see Columns 607, 608, 627, and more). I am willing to bet that the columnist votes for a party to the left of Yair Lapid. Why? Because the right sees the good of the collective as the fundamental parameter and is willing to sacrifice individuals for the collective; whereas the left places individuals at the center, and the collective is born only to serve them. The attitude toward the hostage deal is indeed linked to this dispute.[2]
So Why Do I Still Support the Hypothetical Deal Discussed Here?
Seemingly this is a comparison between uncertain, future, and non-concrete prices on both sides, and in such a situation the numerical consideration ostensibly opposes a hostage deal. Because, in my view, there remains a difference between a present, existing danger and the state’s duty to save its concrete citizens, on the one hand, and future risks whose scope depends in part on us, on the other. I explained this in Column 608.
But I am far from disparaging those who think otherwise, and I certainly understand that they have a considerable case. I think that even in this I am more sober than the columnist, even if I share her stance regarding the conclusion of this hypothetical argument. The picture is not black-and-white as it appears through psychotic eyes. The lesson for both sides is that this is not a matter of wicked fools versus righteous sages (each can choose his own pairing). It is therefore worthwhile to think substantively about the arguments for and against and to form a balanced position. Do not harness all our logic to our heart’s desires. Sometimes positive motivations and concern for human life can lead people to practical and intellectual behavior that is psychotic—and does none of that good.
[1] Before the war began (see Column 596) I raised the possibility of surrender in exchange for the return of all the hostages. That was on the assumption that we had no option of full, long fighting and conquering Gaza until Hamas is eliminated. Moreover, I raised this as a proposal—but it’s not at all clear that Hamas would have accepted it, since even now, when their situation is far worse, we have not seen them accept it.
Incidentally, in Column 602 you can see another of my prophecies from those days—that the public dispute from the period before the war has not abated and will likely return in full force, and even more so, later on.
[2] Though one can quibble that the citizens who will be harmed in the future are also individuals whom the state is supposed to protect.
I think you are missing the argument of many of those who support the deal, which is the claim that the first option you presented
– "The option of continuing the fighting until the goals are optimally achieved (I do not call it ‘total victory’ because the phrase has already taken on a cynical connotation), of course involves giving up the absolute majority of the hostages (who are already clearly dead)." – simply does not exist. Or more accurately – that the fighting has already achieved everything it could achieve, and from here we move on to unnecessary shuffling and suffering, so it is better to end the war and get as many hostages home as possible.
This is even more significant in relation to the possibility of fighting on two fronts – Hamas has so far suffered heavy losses (even if not decisive), while Hezbollah, on the other hand, has de facto taken control of the northern border (in the sense that it determines the agenda of everyone who lives and will live there). The argument is that Israel is not prepared to wage the prolonged war required in the north without diverting forces from the south, and therefore, in any case, ending the war in the south is in Israel's interest in order to evacuate to the north. Therefore, the argument is the opposite of your claim: "The price of a hostage deal is at the very least a final cessation of hostilities, the renunciation of entire regions of land in the north and south and the security of tens and hundreds of thousands of their inhabitants, and the loss of the ability to deal with the Iranian proxy forces that are constantly gaining strength on our borders, and a future encounter with them on conditions that are much less favorable to us."
Of course, this claim can be disputed militarily or strategically, but I think the dichotomy you make between returning the hostages and a crushing defeat or continuing to fight and a victory (partial? maximum?) is mistaken. It is equally possible to make a dichotomy between returning the hostages and giving up the southern front or continuing to fight and giving up the northern front.
It's a matter of assessing the situation, and neither you nor I have the data. The army and the government claim that the goals can be achieved. It seems that way to me too, as long as you don't just cause trouble (and for me that's what they do). There's also the Eiland generals' plan that's being discussed now. Therefore, whoever expresses criticism has the burden of proof.
Beyond that, what you're saying is actually choosing the surrender option. This is indeed one of the options I presented, and I pointed out its shortcomings.
Either way, I have no objection to anyone holding a different position than mine, as long as they're not psychotic. It's certainly possible that Anitz is wrong, and there's room for discussion about that. But with arguments, not hysterical screaming and silence.
You wrote that if they take a break from fighting, they won't really be able to return because of international pressure. In the same way, the fighting can also stop without a deal and without achieving the goals due to international pressure and an arms embargo, and then we'll end up bald from here and there. I mean, this is not a dichotomous situation of either keeping the hostages in our hands and surrendering or achieving the goals without the hostages, but there is a third path (😜) of not returning the hostages and not achieving the goals, which, as you mentioned, is how it looks now.
What goals exactly? At what cost? I think the army and the government have rightfully earned every ounce of skepticism about their ability to bring about something resembling victory. In my opinion, the burden of proof is precisely on those who claim that *this* government and *this* army in the current situation after 11 months of fighting can achieve the goals. As you say yourself, they are just kidding.
Therefore, it makes sense that people who see two options – Kidding without hostages or ending the war with hostages and directing forces to the north – think that there is no dilemma here at all.
Of course, psychosis is never recommended.
As I understand it, you are ignoring the fact that the deal Hamas is demanding includes not only a cessation of fighting but also a withdrawal from all of Gaza.
You wrote about Einav Tsengauker, who was indicted for incitement. You linked to her statement, according to which Netanyahu's hands are stained with the blood of the kidnapped.
I thought your position was that incitement is only wrong when there is encouragement to do something, certainly not when there is only an attempt at a descriptive description.
Has your position changed? If not, how should things be reconciled?
What's more, you also said something similar to her words in the past regarding Netanyahu: “A person who takes over the rights of citizens must be fought.”., and you don't take over the rights of citizens as an act of killing them (certainly from Einav Tsengauker's perspective).
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%d7%94%d7%a1%d7%aa%d7%94-%d7%9c%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%92%d7%aa-%d7%93%d7%99%d7%a7%d7%98%d7%98%d7%95%d7%a8/
I didn't write that I was in favor of imprisoning her. I said that by accepted standards she should have been in prison if it weren't for her condition.
But beyond that, I definitely think her words contain a very significant concern for the violent consequences that are already occurring these days, even if we haven't reached murder yet. That's why she definitely should have been imprisoned. For many incendiary statements. Not one or two. Unfortunately, that wouldn't be wise, because it would break the group of psychotics around her and cause more damage
Not once or twice
I fixed it. Thank you.
Thank you for the article
What is the justification but not to be consequential?
That is, I very much understand intuitively the difference between murder in the act of doing and murder in the act of doing and not doing
But logically I do not understand the difference, so if I know that the result in both will be grim, should I act?
In general, even in Halacha I do not understand the division but "Halacha Moshe Masin" and a very strong intuition that there is a difference but in reason what is the meaning of the division?
There is no such halakha for Moses from Sinai. These are the opinions of the sages. See column 608 and the troll's dilemma.
One of the best articles I've read all year about the whole kidnapping deal thing!!
From the article:
There is of course also the difference between the right and the left in the background, which in my opinion on this issue is essential and not a failure, or a false correlation (see columns 607, 608, 627 and more). I am willing to bet that the author votes for the party to the left of Yair Lapid. Why? Because the right sees the common good as the fundamental parameter and is prepared to sacrifice the details for the sake of the common good. In contrast, the left sees the details at the center, and the common good was born only to serve them. The attitude towards the hostage deal is certainly related to this controversy.[2]
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Those who see the details at the center and the common good as being born to serve them, ignore the fact that that ‘common good’ He too (according to the left) is an individual who is at the center.
What right, according to his own opinion, does he have to expect that the rule will be at his disposal more than the other way around.
That is; apart from the fact that he sees himself at the center and everyone owes him.
This seems to me like a kind of circular argument or a framework in which the defined term is used to explain the term itself.
It's funny that today the right is identified with the common good compared to the left, which mainly sees the individual, because until a few years ago it was the complete opposite, because there is no more concern for the common good than socialism, and what happened was that capitalism won by knockout. So what is left of those who grew up on the values of the left if they are Ayn Rand on steroids on the central issue that is supposed to define their identity? The answer is hatred for everything related to love of the people and the country, which is most identified today with the “right” because Ben Gurion would be defined as a fascist today.
In the end, it's all sociology.
You are mixing old socialist modernist left with contemporary postmodern liberal left.
That's exactly the point, there's really no connection between them except for the sociological connection.
As usual, you belittle the other side and ignore all other professional considerations. As someone who follows the war and the campaign in Gaza, from a military perspective, Hamas has already been destroyed in this sense, that it does not have much capacity to carry out another October Seven, especially since all the Philadelphia Tunnels have been destroyed so that it will be very difficult for it to rebuild itself. The only thing left is civilian control, and whether you like it or not, in order to collapse Hamas' civilian control in Gaza, you need to offer them a governing alternative. In the meantime, it does not appear that Israel is trying to create any alternative, which proves that this war is just dragging its feet so that Bibi will not be investigated. What's more, you are ignoring the situation in the north, we have reached the psychotic state (your favorite word 😅) that we have a security strip inside Israel. And yes, I know it sounds cool to fight in both the north and the south, but what can we do? We are not the Russian army, we do not have enough soldiers and money, and the proof is that until now Israel has refrained from launching a campaign there because every sensible person understands that there are not enough forces for that. (Maybe if the Haredim were to enlist, then yes, but the government does not intend to do that.) Another thing you are ignoring is the international situation. Understand that the medical foreign ministers are working with Arab countries to establish a Palestinian state in a unilateral move, especially since the elections in the US are approaching and if Kamala is elected, then the diplomatic situation in general will be even worse. In short, it seems that the one suffering from psychosis is you and your dreams of ” complete victory ” without realizing that we have already won and what is happening now is simply so that Bibi Yahya will not be questioned (I would not be surprised if he cancels the elections because of the war that will somehow continue until then).
Perhaps this clarification that consequentialism is not the whole story also teaches something about the difference between a direct murderer and a murderer in a gram. As is known, only the former is liable to death by the law of the land. The latter is also, of course, wicked and will be punished according to the laws of the king, but this is not because both are equally immoral, but because even the murderer in a gram is immoral enough to receive a severe punishment. But when examined at a higher resolution, the direct murderer is more wicked. It may be that the purpose of the Torah was to provide a reference to the most serious manifestation of the offense, and only he is fully liable according to the Torah.
This is a consistent picture, but it is completely illogical. A murderer in the sense of a gram is just as evil as a direct murderer. There is no difference between them morally. And regarding the relationship between halakha and morality, I have already elaborated in other places.
As usual, you belittle the other side and ignore all other professional considerations. As someone who follows the war and the campaign in Gaza, from a military perspective, Hamas has already been destroyed in this sense, that it does not have much capacity to carry out another October Seven, especially since all the Philadelphia Tunnels have been destroyed so that it will be very difficult for it to rebuild itself. The only thing left is civilian control, and whether you like it or not, in order to collapse Hamas' civilian control in Gaza, you need to offer them a governing alternative. In the meantime, it does not appear that Israel is trying to create any alternative, which proves that this war is just dragging its feet so that Bibi will not be investigated. What's more, you are ignoring the situation in the north, we have reached the psychotic state (your favorite word 😅) that we have a security strip inside Israel. And yes, I know it sounds cool to fight in both the north and the south, but what can we do? We are not the Russian army, we do not have enough soldiers and money, and the proof is that until now Israel has refrained from launching a campaign there because every sensible person understands that there are not enough forces for that. (Maybe if the Haredim were to enlist, then yes, but the government does not intend to do that.) Another thing you are ignoring is the international situation. Understand that the medical foreign ministers are working with Arab countries to establish a Palestinian state in a unilateral move, especially since the elections in the US are approaching and if Kamala is elected, then the diplomatic situation in general will be even worse. In short, it seems that the one suffering from psychosis is you and your dreams of ” complete victory ” without realizing that we have already won and what is happening now is simply so that Bibi Yahya will not be questioned (I would not be surprised if he cancels the elections because of the war that will somehow continue until then).
It is interesting to compare this to what they said: The humility of Zechariah ben Abel destroyed our house, etc. The sages believed that one should kill the one who did it, and Zechariah disagreed on this because he was humble and righteous.
Who abandons kidnapped people, who is a murderer, who should sit in prison at the expense of the citizens of the country, who plays with the lives of citizens for considerations of national pride.
Do you realize you're just demonstrating psychosis? Try getting treatment.
Now I saw the hysterical message above. I really thought about deleting it, but I think Nathan is right and it's really better to leave it here for all to see to demonstrate my point about psychosis.
It's likely that he's just a troll grinning under his mustache and is generally in the opposite position.
Hello Rabbi,
I had a little trouble understanding the following passage in the article:
"…This is at most a motivation to look for a flaw in the argument, or perhaps proof that it exists there, but in order to reject it we must point out the flaw itself…"
Why is it that when I prove that there is a flaw in the argument without directly pointing it out, does that not suffice to reject the argument?
In my opinion, proof of the existence of a flaw in the argument should be enough to reject/temper the argument without pointing out the flaw itself. Similarly, many mathematical proofs prove theorems by negation. That is, a contradiction that results from not accepting an argument proves the argument itself.
Why is this not enough in the case the Rabbi was dealing with?
This is not proof by negation. It shows that a similar argument leads to problematic conclusions. But from here you can continue in two ways: 1. Adopt those conclusions despite the problematic nature. That is, conclude that there is no flaw in the argument. 2. Conclude that there is a flaw and reject those conclusions and that one as well. Therefore, there is no proof here, only an indication. You must point out the flaw in order to choose path 2. See the column I referred to on paradoxes.
I didn't understand why there was necessarily a contradiction between destroying Hamas and freeing the hostages. If it were depicted that there was a button that, when pressed, would destroy all Hamas terrorists and militants, then at that moment the obstacle to rescuing the hostages would be removed.
More practically speaking, if Hamas were to fear that it was on the verge of being destroyed, it would be wise to agree to a deal that included the release of terrorists in order to avoid destruction. This of course contradicts achieving the goal of destroying Hamas 100%, but achieving both goals 90% (both the release of 90% of the hostages and the destruction of 90% of Hamas) is also fine, not a direct contradiction.
This of course will not happen as long as Hamas watches with pleasure the internal division over the issue of the (completely unilateral) deal.
True. But I have a better button. To destroy all Hamas terrorists and all Israel's enemies, even going back in time, and resurrecting all the dead. In that case, all our problems would be solved retroactively. With buttons like these, you can do anything. The contradiction here is not logical but practical.
When Hamas reaches the stage where it understands that it must surrender, all the hostages will already be dead. I explained this contradiction in the 611 column I referred to. See there.
We could offer any Hamasnik who returns live hostages, including Sinwar, a one-way flight ticket to Qatar. This would give them an incentive to return live hostages.
ynet
https://www.ynet.co.il › … › Flashes
Notices distributed to Gaza residents: $250,000 in exchange for information on the location of the kidnapped
Okay, maybe these buttons aren't so fancy...
I have now seen the ”logical” argument: Next:
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3691513
This opens up a new branch of logic: psychotic logic.
Two comments:
1. As shocking as it may be to put this in writing, perhaps we can see the abductees as a kind of “involuntary persecutor”, since their very existence certainly endangers the lives of many soldiers and civilians in the past and in the future. If there were no abductees, or if we knew for sure that all the abductees (God forbid) are dead – this would have allowed us to fight at a much higher intensity and save the lives of soldiers and civilians. I remind you that you too, in the columns you referred to, said that you were not willing to do the Shalit deal, but only a deal in which a reasonable number of abductees are accepted and a reasonable number of terrorists are released (like the first abductee deal). In this column, for some reason, you say in a blanket manner that in exchange for the abductees, you would be willing to release all the terrorists we have (we are talking about thousands if not tens of thousands, including thousands of skilled murderers who murdered, burned, raped, and what not on October 7 and before). By the way, you hardly address the fact that releasing terrorists, beyond the great risk involved, is also a terrible injustice and an unparalleled moral crime.
2. Regarding the columnist's argument: Beyond all the correct things you wrote, there is a simple difference between preventing terrorism and preventing other types of death. Terrorism does not only harm a specific person and his family, but it weakens our entire grip on this country. If 99% of traffic accidents ended with only panic victims, it seems everyone would agree that there is no point in investing much in preventing them. On the other hand, many would agree that we should have gone to war with Hamas and destroyed the first rocket as soon as it was launched. This is despite the fact that Iron Dome and the missiles have made the chance of being seriously hit by a Hamas missile zero.
1. This is a mistake in the law. There is a clear distinction between the law of a persecutor and one who saves himself at the cost of his friend's life. A persecutor is someone who threatens me himself. If Reuven threatens me, I must not kill Shimon in order to be saved.
Moral injustice is not a consideration when human life is at stake.
These thousands of murderers are not such a great danger. They have tens of thousands of skilled murderers even without them, and if it were not for our blunder, the massacre on October 7 would not have happened. See column 608.
2. I completely disagree. No evidence is presented from the fools.
Let's assume that the entire country is within range of Hamas missiles, and Iron Dome intercepts almost all of them. Should we continue the status quo and save lives (after all, millions of children who don't sleep at night out of fear are not life-threatening) or should we launch an operation in which soldiers will certainly be killed? Do you support the first option?
In my opinion, yes. The role of the army is to allow the citizens of the country a normal life.
You make a sharp distinction between the price of releasing terrorists and the price of stopping the war/withdrawal, etc., and I don't think you've adequately explained the meaning of this sharp distinction. From the side that supports the deal, at least, these are all arguments from the same family of consequentialism, of preferring the theoretical future dead who have tools to prevent them over the hostages who will die immediately.
Perhaps you're saving the explanation of the distinction for a future column, but it seems to me that the essence of the arguments for opposing the deal, including your own opposition, lies in this.
I explained it completely, and also referred to column 608.
So, in your opinion, the Shalit deal was a good deal even from the perspective of 2023?
It was bad both in my view then and now. I wrote about it more than once, and I also described an argument I had with his parents (Noam and Aviva) about it. Looking back doesn't matter much, because October 7th is the result of our mistake and not of the Shalit deal.
The numbers are simply different and the circumstances are different (one soldier, who was kidnapped because of his fault, and today there are dozens of kidnapped civilians who were kidnapped because of our fault).
The psychosis, of course, is the same psychosis that existed then, but on steroids.
Hello, Rabbi
If I understood correctly, you claimed after Oct. 7 that Hamas cannot be defeated, because as long as there are people alive in Gaza, those people will be willing to die to take revenge and kill, what has changed since then, that you now think that there really is a way to defeat Hamas?
Secondly, you claim in this post that Hamas did not accept your offer, immediately after Oct. 7, of everyone for everyone, I do not remember ever offering such a thing to Hamas, even now I do not believe that the heads of state would be willing to do such a thing now.
Thank you very much
I don't remember writing anything like that. I estimated that the IDF and the government would not be willing to go to war for a long time until Hamas was destroyed. The argument you quote comes up more than once, but it is not mine. Even today, it is not certain that Hamas can be eliminated, but it is possible to seriously harm it. The government and the IDF have shown greater resilience than I thought, although we are still struggling there and not really fighting.
I didn't write that anywhere either. I wrote then that it was appropriate to offer them this and I still think it was appropriate. I'm not sure they would accept it, but it's worth a try. Not anymore today, because we already have achievements and it's wrong to give them up in such a deal. Today, everyone here would be happy to make such a deal. There is hardly a single Israeli who would oppose it. But Hamas will not agree. It requires it to be eliminated and the prisoners returned. Why would they agree?!
Thanks for the clear answer
Two points I want to clarify more, if we are not really fighting, then what do we gain from it? Do you think they were seriously harmed in this war?
And another general point, do you believe that they can end this problem through war, or will it only intensify the feelings there to take revenge and kill, and killing will bring killing will bring killing, and the cycle will repeat as it has been until now?
The question is, maybe it is worth thinking outside the box, and not being dragged down by the feeling of revenge, because what we have done so far has not really helped us that much, it seemed to me that this is what you suggested immediately after Annex 7
Thank you very much for everything
First, it's really a shame that we don't fight more. That needs to be improved. Second, there are gains beyond the war that we will have to give up in a deal. To get away from what we already have and stop the harm we are still causing and allow Hamas to get stronger again.
Anyone who thinks that concessions will bring peace lives in Aspamiya. Only strength and even more strength, and in the meantime it seems that we will have to live by our sword. Until there is someone to talk to.
It is always worth thinking outside the box. But not everything outside the box is right. Outside the box there are also thoughts that -2+3=-17. What I proposed then I explained in the previous message.
It seems to me that the analysis lacks reference to a partial deal. A deal in which some of the hostages are returned in exchange for terrorists and a temporary ceasefire. I wouldn't have believed it was possible - but it happened, and apparently the interest in doing it again still exists. How do you explain the deal that was made?
I did not address a partial deal because I have nothing general to say about it. Although, I have written more than once that a partial deal is factually possible.
Unknowingly, you yourself belong to a church that opposes the release of hostages and opposes ending the war, even though there is no good enough reason to continue it, all the rational arguments that are presented to you are not satisfactory in your eyes. All this even though in retrospect almost every prediction or premise of yours was refuted by reality.
I saw this clearly when you wrote about the call for the release of hostages and the end of the war – mass psychosis/carnival of the hostages/surrender to emotion just like all the ”rationalists on the right” (also right in double quotes of course), before the second deal and within it there was a large amount of opinion articles by “rationalists” who oppose it and categorize everything else as emotional – I already wrote to you in real time that releasing the hostages is the rational thing and that resistance stems from unjustified emotionality (irrational fear of terrorism) or from a desire to settle in Gaza (albeit a minority) and not from rational considerations.
You made an explicit prediction that after the second hostage deal it would be impossible to return to fighting – and this was completely refuted and yet you do not reexamine your basic assumptions. You had a basic assumption that Hamas would not return all the hostages – but this was also refuted when Hamas announced that it was willing to return them all in exchange for ending the war – and Netanyahu addressed the proposal in the video and announced that he did not accept it because he did not surrender to terrorism. And yes, I know you will say that ”total victory” outweighs the return of the hostages.
And finally, this government, according to her, is “right-wing” and yet after more than a year and a half of fighting, they still haven't announced the destruction of Hamas… so at first they excused it by saying ”Galant is a mole” then ”the Chief of Staff isn't aggressive enough” then ”Biden is preventing us” and now Ronen Bar is to blame for the fighting not progressing, and yesterday I saw MK Amit Halevi (Likud) blaming the (promising) government for not winning in Gaza. Considering that Israel changed the Middle East (according to Netanyahu himself), maybe the complete victory in Gaza is simply an illusion that is being sold to the public at the expense of freeing the hostages? (Of course, another explanation could be that the people in the government are simply impersonal…)
As for the complete victory, the overthrow of Hamas is a goal that is not worth fighting for – and this is usually what is meant when talking about the complete victory. After all, most of Hamas's military capabilities were already lost a year ago, Hamas does not pose a threat to Israel like it did on October 7, and Hamas's governmental capabilities will not be lost if it does not find someone else to rule there as long as there are Palestinians there. And even if hypothetically everyone with Hamas written on their foreheads were exiled to Indonesia, another terrorist organization would simply take control (just for general knowledge *before* October 7, there were over 10 terrorist factions in the Gaza Strip, Hamas was simply the largest), therefore all the intensive work of the IDF soldiers is not worth the benefit. And Israeli military rule will indeed significantly reduce terrorism, but it will have its costs – I assume that this is the government’s ultimate intention – and there should be a public debate about these costs, and certainly not the 7.10 government can decide such a thing.
In short, you also belong to one of the churches, and instead of bringing a serious discussion and arguments against a deal/ending the war, you categorize the people as a church/as mass psychosis and a host of other nice expressions..
PS And all this without discussing at all the morality of fighting with the war crimes that are revealed even to the Israeli public from time to time, and without discussing the fact that we destroyed 2.5% of the population (according to the most lenient estimates)…
I would be happy to be an honorary member of any church that is willing to accept me. But as for your arguments, none of them hold water (a church?). Just a reminder that holding a position does not mean you are in the church. The question is whether you consider my counterarguments or not, that is, have you considered them as well.
In the meantime, it seems that there are all the reasons to continue the war. It alone brought us the Age of Alexander, without much to do with Trump, despite the dogmas of the Church of the Right. They turned to Trump only because of the fear of the threat of expanding the war, but the Church of the Right shouts in unison that everything is thanks to Trump, and everyone only thanks him (shame). If there is anyone who contributed to the return of the kidnapped, it is the government and the army, and if there is anyone who repeatedly thwarts the possibility of doing so, it is the families of the kidnapped and their church. Exactly the same regarding the recycled claims that only deals resulted in the return of the kidnapped. Bullshit. Only war resulted in this. Deals are made as a result. But the church does not really consider common sense. There are principles of faith…
The Ba'ad Church repeats over and over again that it will be possible to renew the war and eliminate Hamas even after an agreement. History proves this to be untrue, and so does common sense. No one will enter into a full-scale war to destroy Hamas because Hamas is acquiring a few more missiles or digging a few tunnels. Even today, the world and your church are not willing to let us do this, when we have all the reasons and justifications. If there is a chance to destroy Hamas, it is only now, when we have already done more than half the way, and the war is in full swing despite the protests of the world. In my opinion, this is exactly the time to continue for another year or two at full strength and eliminate them. Maybe I am wrong and we will not succeed in this, but in my opinion this is a very sober assessment and absolutely not churchly. On the other hand, your firm and unfounded opposition does seem somewhat churchly to me.
Regarding the claim that my assessments were refuted, I will first say that it is certainly possible that my assessments of reality were refuted, but this does not indicate ecclesiasticalism. A person can be wrong. What determines this matter is only the question of whether he took into account all the considerations to the best of his ability. It seems to me that this is a simple distinction, but it is difficult to see it as being so biased.
Although it is legitimate to be wrong, I think that here I was not wrong. My opposition to deals was only expressed towards a deal that involves ending the war and leaving Hamas behind. Interim deals in which we will gain a few hostages are certainly in the offing. I have no problem with them.
Despite the above, I also do not remember any prediction of mine as you quote. In my opinion, there was none, but I would be happy to receive a link. I did indeed claim that a comprehensive deal would not allow for a return to war, and I also assumed that even within the framework of a comprehensive deal we would not receive all the hostages. I still hold this opinion, although if we continue the war more vigorously there is perhaps a chance that Hamas will despair and surrender. Maybe.
Hamas has never announced that it is willing to return all the hostages in exchange for an end to the war. This is your delusion and that of your emotional church that is turning from wishful thinking into fact. It announced that without an end to the war, the hostages will not be returned. But it has other conditions (that it will not be renewed, and that they will remain in the area). And all this even if one takes its announcements seriously, as the emotional ones from your church tend to do.
The question of whether the government is okay or not is another question that is not relevant to the matter. We are discussing here solely the ecclesiastical nature of the parties and mine. I am far from being a supporter of this scum government.
The argument that Hamas has already collapsed is also recycled over and over again and does not hold water. Hamas has never been a military threat to Israel. Therefore, even if we killed tens of thousands of its people, it is irrelevant. The collapse of Hamas means that it will not control Gaza and that it will not have armaments (missiles, etc.) and tunnels. This is a goal that I believe is definitely achievable, but of course I have no information and I am willing to hear other opinions. Your argument about this is irrelevant, as stated.
By the way, the proposals that are being made now, the voices from the Arab countries, talk about Hamas's withdrawal from the territory, a peace agreement with the Palestinians with mutual recognition and demilitarization. This is a wonderful agreement in my opinion, and if it is really possible and the government does not agree to it (and it probably will not), I will join your church (but as a rational observer from the sidelines). Needless to say, these proposals are of course only being made thanks to the government's insistence on continuing to fight.
The argument based on the number of uninvolved casualties is also a ridiculous ecclesiastical example. The only relevant question is whether the legitimate war goals can be achieved at a lower cost. And this is a comparative question, not an absolute quantitative one. But talk to the priests in the church. They are incapable of understanding this.
In short, in the end, it seems that you just wanted to illustrate my points in the column, and for that I can only thank you. But beyond the compliments that my arguments receive from you, from your perspective, I still urge you to leave the church.