A Look at the 5784 Yom Kippur “War” (Column 594)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
For Elad, who asked for this column
I already thought some time ago about writing something on the Yom Kippur “wars” in Tel Aviv and in general. But tempers were flaring, and perhaps after a few days things would be received a bit more calmly and with more balance. The descriptions I’ll bring here will be schematic and won’t capture the storm in all its glory. Interested readers are invited to search the media. Here I only wish to point out a few important points in the principled debate taking place these days, of which the storms in Tel Aviv are just one expression. I must say there’s nothing significantly novel in what I write; it’s been written before. But perhaps this column will help focus the issue a bit. This column is journalistic in nature. In the next column I’ll dive a little into the more theoretical layer of the discussion.
Background: Rosh Yehudi
The organization Rosh Yehudi has been active in Tel Aviv for quite a few years now. Their concern is bringing people closer to Judaism (not Haredi, and in their words more inclusive). I admittedly don’t much like the laundry-list euphemisms used by such missionary organizations, like the riddle that opens their website:
Rosh Yehudi is a center for self-awareness in the heart of Tel Aviv, providing content, inspiration, and experience for a young audience interested in deepening, learning, and daring to ask essential and fascinating questions that concern us all.
You might try to imagine that they’re dealing with questions of child abuse, the philosophy of morality and existentialism, the nature of mathematics (the question of Platonism), Jewish-Arab relations, or perhaps meditation workshops for self-awareness (I gather that actually does happen there in one form or another. Well, you wanted Judaism in Tel Aviv, didn’t you?) and the like. But if you keep reading you’ll immediately discern the outline of the “solution”:
Rosh Yehudi arose to meet the growing thirst for Jewish identity. All Rosh Yehudi rabbis are committed to the teachings of our master Rabbi Kook, of blessed memory, who educated toward observance of Torah out of fear of Heaven, while listening to the life taking shape here in the Land.
So beyond the genre’s standard word-laundering, we’re speaking about an organization with a laudable aim. They answer a thirst, bring people closer to Judaism, and in the spirit of Rav Kook. Those who know the background know this is an appropriate Zionist response to Haredi outreach organizations (which—aside from the point about Rav Kook—use almost the same words to describe their actions and goals, and I think in practice are no less inclusive and open).
Except that the Judaism they market there isn’t always so pleasant to secular ears. For example, about two weeks ago they brought in Rabbi Yigal Levinstein, known for his pleasant and inclusive views (which in recent years have aroused plenty of criticism in the media and even within the religious public. I’ll spare you my personal opinion), to address the thirsty Tel Aviv public. Unsurprisingly, his arrival sparked near-violent disturbances. In my view, the talk of a lynch was a bit exaggerated and tendentious, but that’s how a mobilized press operates. In any case, despite the condemnation of the person in question and his views, these attacks and protests drew criticism from various quarters. Many spoke of the growing intolerance and the questionable liberalism lately revealed in the first and largest Hebrew liberal city.
Let us turn now to the war itself.
A brief description of events
For several years now, Rosh Yehudi has organized prayers in the public domain intended for those who don’t feel comfortable praying in a synagogue but want a religious experience of praying in the street while holding the leash of the dog lying beside them like a child ingratiating himself before his Creator (remember: this is Tel-Avivian Judaism). This year a prayer was planned for Dizengoff Square (as part of extracting the sparks from the husks), and lo, a few days before Yom Kippur, the Tel Aviv municipality notified Rosh Yehudi there would be no permit to place partitions between women and men in the public domain. After petitions to the courts were denied, including to the Supreme Court (which rejected it on grounds mainly technical), it was agreed they would conduct the prayer without partitions.
But on Yom Kippur eve a very large stage was erected in the square, and at its sides several Israeli flags were placed as a de facto partition. This sparked an uproar among protesters who came to ensure the law was upheld (which, as we all know, is always and only their guiding light), and the commotion continued into Yom Kippur, up to Ne’ilah and beyond. In the end I understand the prayer was moved to a nearby synagogue and its surroundings. This war raised a great clamor in heaven—but also on earth. There were very harsh scenes (see, for example, a description here) that reminded many of pogroms and dark religious persecutions, and I think that’s not entirely far-fetched. People cried there, and it was clear they felt like those Jews abroad who were attacked for their Judaism. Even a few of the toughest and most cynical among our finest reported tears and deep despair following the events. No wonder that, in the wake of the war, many protested the violence, the persecution of Judaism, and the silencing of voices—and once again the so-called “liberalism,” naturally, with many caveats.
Political and social background
For posterity, or for those living among us today but residing on the moon over the past year, it’s important simply to note that all this is taking place against a backdrop of nearly a year of activity by the coalition of horrors and the current government, composed of extreme Haredi elements (some wearing knitted kippot) that have aroused sharp criticism and protest in the streets, which has not abated for almost a year. The protest revolves mainly around the judicial reform they’re trying to advance, but no less around a policy that includes an impressive array of highly problematic steps in the public sphere. Needless to say, not all their steps are problematic, and the protest against them is sweeping and hysterical (every move by the government is presented there as destruction). The protesters and the protest long ago detached themselves from reality (and in so doing lost me—and many like me—entirely).
In any case, the background to the Yom Kippur events I described is the war between the religious-Haredi and anti-liberal coalition (led by the “liberal” movement called Likud) and large parts of the public who deeply dislike it and even see it as an existential and immediate danger to democracy (not really true) and to the state (quite true). The crisis has lasted a year and is very severe, and many (myself included) see in it (in the crisis, not only in the government’s steps) an existential danger to society and even a tangible threat to the state’s survival.
The protests I described against the prayer and the worshippers in Tel Aviv were carried out in the name of gender separation and partitions in the public domain, but we all know that wasn’t the issue. The war there was part of the ongoing protest against the religious and their conduct. The protesters weren’t very interested in partitions, nor in the law and its observance. They wanted to torpedo the prayer itself, or at least push it back into synagogues. In particular they targeted Rosh Yehudi, perceived as part of the hardal (national-Haredi) world and almost as an arm of our benighted coalition. They didn’t want to see it and its activities in a secular city like Tel Aviv, and in this way they also protested the coalition it represents to them. The sanctions the municipality is imposing on the organization for Sukkot have already been published and are under litigation, and more sagas await us. The day’s battle and its evening are not yet over.
Whataboutism: a look at freedom of expression and action
I’ll begin with the pluralism demanded of the municipality and the protesting public. Similar demands arose regarding Ben-Gvir’s marches in Umm al-Fahm and similar events. But similar pluralism should have been extended by the religious-right toward Pride parades around the country. And likewise toward a mixed Reform prayer in the streets of Bnei Brak, in Kiryat Arba, or a Muslim prayer for the welfare of Hamas prisoners in Yitzhar. And what about Christian missionizing across the Holy Land? It’s hard to avoid the impression that the demand for tolerance—and the sense of being offended—on both sides are position-driven. Neither truly applies them to itself. Tolerance and offense are tools in the public struggle and, in my eyes, not particularly authentic. I’m sure the tears and hurt for some were authentic, but that’s only because of a lack of self-awareness and willful disconnect from context. In essence there’s no room here for offense. There was no lynch and no pogrom, and comparisons to Kishinev are demagoguery. Likewise, the protesters aren’t truly concerned with the rule of law (cf. road-blocking), nor did they protest gender separation. They rioted against prayer and religious Jews in the streets of secular Tel Aviv. That’s all. In short, both sides in this story are astonishingly hypocritical—even if, sadly, some are unaware of it.
So you can understand why I’m not greatly impressed by either side’s claims. One can, of course, make various distinctions. For instance, in Yitzhar there is no demand for this type of prayer, unlike Tel Aviv (the fact is many residents came to pray there). Beyond that, Tel Aviv is not a private place (“it’s not their father’s city,” as Zeira of Rosh Yehudi quite rightly said) but a city. Its status differs from that of a settlement, and its streets should be open to every activity and every public. Its residents are also more diverse than those of various towns, contrary to the false representation of a “secular city” (more than once I’ve seen secular people tend to view their living space as secular even when it’s not). But what about Bnei Brak, or Pride parades? Those too are cities. And what about missionizing, which is prohibited by law across the country (apparently there’s demand for it)? Yes, I know, this is a Jewish state—but also a democratic one. In a democratic state there is freedom of expression, speech, and action so long as no one else is harmed. And the fact that someone declares themselves offended to gain privileges is, to me, like Muslims rioting when someone draws a caricature of Muhammad, or Arabs when someone walks past them with an Israeli flag, or Jews when someone walks past them with a Palestinian flag. It’s all really the same. In short, Tel Aviv may not be a secular city, but even if it were, that shouldn’t prevent religious activities in its streets. And likewise in Bnei Brak and Jerusalem.
Both sides in this game are equally hypocritical and demagogic, since the demands for tolerance from all directions are equally justified—and both sides reject them when inconvenient. Therefore neither side is right here. This may surprise you, but there’s something common to both sides in these loud wars: both agree that expression and activities they dislike should not be allowed—at least in the public domain, and preferably beyond. But, ironically, precisely in the principle on which they agree, they are wrong. A democratic state is supposed to allow any activity of any kind in every public space, and not heed the cries of faux-victims or the “offended.” That’s true for Pride parades in Jerusalem, Kahana marches in Umm al-Fahm, separate prayers or speeches by Yigal Levinstein in Tel Aviv, Holocaust denial (see in column 6), missionizing in the Holy Land, and the like. No wonder each side’s intolerance fuels and arms the other (which, of course, suffers from the same intolerance).
That is the nature of free speech and democracy. These social-governmental practices are meant for adults who don’t want some “sages of the generation” (neither Ehud Barak nor Aharon Barak, neither Shikma Bressler, nor Eichler, nor Levinstein) deciding for them what is right and wrong and determining what will be heard in the public domain and what won’t. Everything should be heard everywhere, and people will decide whether they want to listen or not, and whether they accept it or not. That’s the nature of a free and democratic state. Oh, and also a Jewish one. Whoever wishes can, of course, protest to their heart’s content—without violence—against events they deem objectionable, or organize alternative marches, lectures, or prayers according to their taste. The marketplace of ideas and the public sphere should be open to all, and there should be no doubt about any person’s or group’s right to voice an opinion or conduct themselves as they wish. So long as I don’t harm anyone, but only my views “harm” someone—let them take a pill and calm down. The starting point is that everyone has the right to present any opinion and do whatever they wish, anywhere. And again, my words here are directed against both sides of this debate. Neither strives for tolerance; both operate against it and only take its name in vain when convenient.
Of course, now I’ll be asked about a neo-Nazi march through the streets of Bnei Brak (I don’t rule it out. Borderline), or walking fully nude, or even a blatant Pride parade in Meah Shearim (in my view unlikely). True, there is common sense, and it’s hard to permit everything; but the line of common sense lies far beyond the limits each side in the current struggle draws for its own purposes. One can always feign naiveté and depict a separate prayer as equivalent to walking naked—but that’s disingenuous nonsense. Not everything has to be permitted (since sometimes there is harm even if not physical), but almost everything should be. In our parts there is a growing tactical use of “offense” and “harm” to score gains, but that’s a Muslim tactic, and I’d be pleased to see it vanish from our midst. Incidentally, that’s the government’s (and police’s) job: not to capitulate to “feelings of offense” and to deal firmly with those who use them—more or less cynically. The authorities’ weakness in the face of various publics’ “offense” brings upon us today’s abominations. We mustn’t take it into account. Not Muslims on the Temple Mount, not Arabs in Umm al-Fahm, not Jews at the Pride Parade, and not Tel-Avivians regarding prayers—separate or not—at Dizengoff Square.
It’s important to note I’m not using whataboutism in its usual sense here, namely attacking one side by claiming it suffers from the same flaw it imputes to its counterpart. I used whataboutism here only to show that both sides are in exactly the same boat—and to criticize them both. In short, the war over freedom of expression and liberalism ought to be waged by the sane majority against both sides, because in this war they stand together—on the wrong, illiberal side. This is a dark religious war, and that’s how we should see it.
Pogrom feelings
By the way, I can understand the sense of injury and the “pogrom-ish” descriptions of these events. From the photos one could sense the hatred on people’s faces and the disgust they expressed toward religion and religious people in general. The images of (religious) people crying at the event and the shock it caused others seem authentic to me. There was a kind of pogrom here, if only because these events were not a war over ideas on their merits but also—and perhaps mainly—against people and groups.
It reminds me of an unforgettable experience (so why do I need to recall it?) from very many years ago. During Chol Hamoed Sukkot a conference was held at Tel Aviv University titled “Spinoza, the first secular Jew.” I believe I’ve mentioned it here before. It was rather amusing, since between the lines of the supposedly academic lectures it was clear the secular were simply seeking a rabbi and spiritual leader (some in the audience said as much). Among others, Prof. Michael Har-Segor, who headed the League against Religious Coercion, spoke there. He strutted about like a peacock, accompanied by two odd fellows—bodyguards or water-pourers on his hands—and the three of them ranted in an ugly fashion against anything smelling of religion (especially Jewish; he actually showed quite impressive tolerance toward Christianity), like the last of the pogromists. I remember his remarks on stage and then a (horrific) argument I had with him and his two companions in the conference corridors, which stirred very difficult feelings in me. Never in my life had I encountered so directly and so crudely such fierce antisemitic hatred smeared across people’s faces as they “talked” to me—just as my parents described from abroad. It was indeed a painful experience, one that slightly clouds my liberalism and desire to allow freedom of expression for all. I suppose that’s part of what stirred the harsh feelings in the recent Yom Kippur war. And still, in my opinion, even hatred must be free to be expressed, and we must address it in other ways (not by silencing).
Incidentally, the hatred on both sides has been here for a long time already, and the harping on the fact that this was a prayer and on a holy day and other demagogic propaganda lines strikes me as tendentious and unserious. It’s a bit like the ludicrous shock at Baruch Goldstein’s deeds over the fact that he massacred innocent worshippers in the Cave of the Patriarchs—as if had he killed them in their homes it would have been acceptable. I see no difference between hatred or murder expressed at prayer and hatred or murder otherwise. Such statements are nothing but cynical exploitation of respect for religious feelings for propaganda purposes. In any case, the Yom Kippur events were only one expression—albeit a somewhat extreme one—of the hatred that has been blazing here for some time, and that’s how they should be seen.
A psychological note
Above I spoke about the secular search for a rabbi. I’ll add that, in my view, this also underlies not a few of the current protests. The secular are tired of being portrayed (and of feeling, in practice—and rightly) like an empty cart. The religious have binding values on which one cannot compromise, and the secular feel they must set up an alternative full cart opposite them. But that feeling itself can be interpreted in two ways: one can understand it as a tactic—since it’s a bit hard to fight for a sacred vacuum. But one can also understand it as essence: a claim that there really are secular values (a full cart). I find tactics hard to argue with, since they don’t claim to be honest. But on the substantive level I’ll repeat and say: indeed, the secular cart is empty. Secular people can be wonderful and full of all that is good, brimming with wisdom and fine character traits—but that’s as people. There’s no such thing as secular values, because secularity is a negative state (absence of faith or of religious commitment). A secular person can be full of values, but there are no “secular values,” and therefore, to their regret, it’s impossible and unreasonable to create such a religion. And even liberalism, which is a certain kind of belief (not secular), is not a religion, and I’d expect it to allow grownups who don’t agree with it to conduct themselves as they understand in the public domain.
This sense of vacuum brings people a powerful need to fill their empty cart. So they create a religion for themselves (since, as noted, there’s no such thing as a full secular cart): namely beliefs and values that must be defended with religious zeal, never compromising, fearing every slippery-slope—however slight—just like the last of the religious whom they vilify (and exclude). Now they too have something for which to fight with self-sacrifice. Thus democratic liberalism turns into an intolerant and non-inclusive religion, with fundamental dogmas, with heretics and apostates, with spiritual leaders, with consigning heretics to the pit and silencing mouths—just like every other self-respecting religion. Thus voluntary separation of the two genders in the public domain becomes heresy in a fundamental principle whose “punishment” is roughly death—or at least violent condemnation—something like Nazism for fans of the genre. I’ve just heard of a halakhic dispute among the “greats of the generation” of the anti-government protest about whether it’s permissible to make Nazi comparisons. Now they too have the party of the “comparers” and those who are not.
This may be dime-store psychology, but I have a very clear sense that this is one of the foundations for the secular hysteria over religionization (hadatah), exclusion (hadarah), othering (hazarah), “harvahah,” “havzarah,” “harfiyah,” “hakladah,” and the rest of the h–words (fill in the blank) for which one must “die rather than transgress,” and regarding which clear fences must be erected against every remote fear of a slippery slope. Now we’re all religious; the carts on both sides are full; and now the struggle can proceed on equal terms. At last there is content to our lives. One cannot deny that this struggle provides a sense of satisfaction and fullness to people for whom bourgeois secular life did not offer sufficient spiritual answer. The term “democracy,” used by the protest with no connection to its original meaning, has become a religious banner. The Declaration of Independence has become holy writ, and if there’s a lawyer like Ilan Bombach who dares to criticize it (see here and the stormy reactions in the media), they’re offended like the last of the Muslims whose cheese was moved.
Well then, it’s hard to live a secular life—that is, a life devoid of religious feelings. None of us is perfect, and only a few truly succeed in doing so. Incidentally, I think that I, humble as I am, actually manage it fairly well (I worked on it quite a bit. It didn’t come easily). For me there really isn’t anything that justifies draconian steps and such grievous offense from either side, and I recommend to everyone—that is, to the religious on both sides—to try to reach this blessed “secular” and liberal state. You can believe with perfect faith in something and at the same time be rational, logical, even human and moral. Despite what your gut tells you, and despite the exhortations of politruks on both sides (“If you don’t care, you don’t really believe”—in halakha or in liberalism), there is no contradiction between the two. You don’t have to fall into hysteria to prove serious belief and commitment to something.
If we’re dealing with psychological motives, we can’t avoid returning to what’s been happening in the political sphere over the last year. The clashing sides on this past Yom Kippur are closely identified with the two political camps, which makes it much easier to understand the anger and frustration of the secular side. They feel that others are entering their domain and advancing ideas that persecute them. It’s not just antisemitism, even if at times it looks like it (incidentally, even antisemitism in the past perhaps wasn’t always baseless, as I’ve noted before. Ehud Matot—glad to supply you a quote for your obsessive postings).
It’s important for me to say that these psychological-sociological motives are something I can understand. It’s hard to live in a vacuum, especially when the other side exploits it and demands you compromise all the time because your cart is empty, trying again and again to impose its way on you. But still, understanding is not justification. I do not accept a process that creates religious values ex nihilo just because someone has a psychological need (incidentally, many accuse the religious of exactly that). I too oppose the exclusion of women, but I do not see separate prayer in Dizengoff Square as exclusion, and I would certainly not impose it on women and men who wish it. Let it be for their health. And of course there’s nothing here that would justify “pogroms” (that is, protests that evoke a sense of pogrom). Incidentally, I would also expect the court not to allow this exclusion of the religious. Although the Supreme Court’s decision was mainly technical, I have no doubt there was an agenda in the background as well.
Exclusion and separation in a public space
We’ve arrived at the subject of exclusion. I’ve discussed liberal paternalism here more than once. Those Liberals-In-Their-Own-Eyes graciously impose on grownups who think differently the “correct” way to think and behave. Thus we arrive at bizarre phenomena like banning the rental of a public venue—or even granting approval—for a gender-separate performance by a Haredi singer in a public place. This continues with bans on separate prayer in the public domain as practiced by the people of Israel for many generations. Thus the Hebrew University doesn’t allow female students who wish it to dance separately at a Purim party—all in the name of liberalism. Thus we arrived at the situation where the most sensible decision in the world by the current government (yes, occasionally there are such), which tries to set separate bathing hours at certain nature reserves (after a pilot, with due caution and in very small measure) for people who cannot use these public places in a way that fits their values and are thus excluded from them, becomes an offensive step that arouses mass protests by faux-victims. Apparently that too leads to the end of democracy—like every heretical pip squeak from the wrong religion.
In short, don’t tell me that setting up partitions in Dizengoff Square with everyone’s consent—while allowing anyone who wishes to move about around it freely—truly constitutes a “die rather than transgress” prohibition in the liberal religion. Don’t tell me it strikes at your very soul to that extent. That’s bull I’m not buying, if only because I too am a believer in liberalism—not the religion invented here from nothing, but true liberalism. I’m also not buying the opposition even if the worshippers had indeed occupied the square and people couldn’t pass through during the prayer (the protesters themselves note that in past years they did allow it). There are plenty of events that take over the public domain and limit our movement, and I don’t see how prayer differs from them. And again, I believe that for some people (not necessarily the less intelligent), the feelings of holy anger are authentic—but that’s the result of brainwashing and religious fanaticism of the kind I fight against in the truly religious world (i.e., actual religion, not the liberal one). It’s no wonder I expect (in vain) those who declare they dislike brainwashing, coercion, and religious fanaticism to fight against it even as they do all of it in exactly the same way.
Jewish or democratic state?
It’s important to note that none of this is said in the name of the state’s Jewishness. It has no connection. I’m in favor of liberalism even when it comes to Muslim prayer or missionary parades. I’m entirely in favor of religionization or secularization, proselytizing and repentance or “de-repentance,” in the public sphere. These have all become dirty words in our new religious world. But as a liberal (not religious), I believe the public domain should be a Hyde Park where everyone can speak and act as they see fit—however eccentric or odd—and each of us will let them do so and choose our own path. I’m sick of everyone explaining to others what may or may not be said or done in the public sphere. What’s legitimate and what isn’t. Everything is legitimate so long as you don’t harm someone. Eichler will babble his anti-Zionist drivel (in the name of the national camp, of course), and Levinstein will deliver his foolish lectures and spread his conspiracy theories under every green tree—and no one should be persecuted for it (though one may, of course, protest if one really feels like it). Is there a prohibition on being a fool? There isn’t even a prohibition on being wicked or mistaken, so long as you let others live their lives. Missionizing is not a dirty word. On the contrary: anyone who believes in something—I expect them to try to persuade others to their view. Whether Christian, Reform, Orthodox, Flat-Earther, or vegan. A democratic society of grown, rational people should encourage all this, not ban it.
Of course, none of the warring sides in today’s conflicts can really claim this, since neither is equally liberal, both threaten democracy, and neither lets us live here. But as I wrote in the whataboutism section above, I don’t intend to be a mouthpiece for either side. I claim this against both, in the name of democracy and liberalism—and really in the name of common sense—and it seems to me in the name of the majority, or at least a very large portion of the public. Let us live in peace and stop bothering us all. I don’t want honor for Judaism, nor honor for women, nor honor for religious or secular. I want to live. That’s all. As far as I’m concerned, no one needs to honor me. My late grandmother would have cared so much.
Conclusion
To conclude, I’ll bring here a précis of an article by Itamar Baz published in Ha’Ayin HaShevi’it (a media watchdog site). You’ll see why I wrote at the beginning that there’s nothing very novel here—and also why it’s still necessary. I’ll preface that there are several flaws in this ostensibly objective article. Starting with the use of loaded terms like “missionary activity” and “bringing people back to religion,” which covertly assume these actions are illegitimate and create very clear feelings against them in the biased reader. Continuing with a tendentious and incorrect description of Livskind’s arguments (as if he wrote that a journalist who examines and evaluates facts is taking an unfair path). Continuing with demonizing Israel Ze’ira (an “evil” rich businessman, heaven forfend) and accusing Ariel Schnabel of ignoring this “questionable” facet of Ze’ira, and more. But there’s nothing unusual in that; it’s the standard routine in our journalism—even though from an article in a forum for media criticism I’d expect a bit more critical sense and self-awareness. But our interest here is his central argument.
At the outset he brings statements by various columnists (on the right), particularly Nadav Ha’atzni and Kalman Livskind, who wrote roughly what I’ve written here. They argue that if someone doesn’t enjoy separate prayer, they should be so kind as to pray otherwise or not at all—but not impose their way on others. Our Itamar continues, saying that despite the similarity there’s a difference between Livskind and Ha’atzni:
Despite the similarity, there is a fundamental difference between Ha’atzni’s column and Livskind’s. They hold similar views, but Ha’atzni has a bit more intellectual honesty. He preaches “tolerance,” within which secular Tel-Avivians are asked to accept hardal “Rosh Yehudi,” but clarifies that tolerance should end when the other side tries “to take over public services and resources, or to impose a way of life and dress in public transportation or in the city’s streets.” In his words, Ze’ira’s return-to-religion activists are not such, and therefore did not deserve expulsion.
Livskind, by contrast, is a professional eye-closer. Return-to-religion activists, including Rosh Yehudi, operated in secular cities for years unimpeded, and often even relied on public budgets. In fact—as several columnists note—last Yom Kippur a similar prayer took place in Dizengoff Square and passed without disturbances. What changed is the context.
His main claim is twofold: (1) Livskind (unlike Ha’atzni) does not extend tolerance to the other side and demands tolerance only for his side; (2) Livskind (unlike Ha’atzni) ignores the context—namely the political-legal struggle of the past year—which aroused all these harsh, intolerant feelings.
The problem is that everyone is right. It’s true that it’s wrong to ignore context, and wrong to demand tolerance only of one side—but equally wrong is Itamar Baz’s thinking that these are substantive arguments. This is whataboutism in its usual (and flawed) usage. These are not substantive arguments, for a tolerant and liberal society should conduct debates differently—even when the other side is misbehaving (and indeed it is—but it’s also being hysterically demonized). If you have a political dispute with someone or with any group, conduct it on its merits. You cannot, because of that, silence mouths and prevent entirely legitimate actions by your opponent in the public sphere. You can and should raise arguments, debate, and offer alternatives (a Reform prayer in Bnei Brak, a Pride parade in Jerusalem), but not silence and not prevent the other from living as they understand. By this whataboutist logic, now that the religious are in power they should persecute every secular aspect, silence it, and prevent it by every tool at their disposal—after all, the rules have been broken and the game is off.
In my terms from above, I think our Itamar confuses understanding with justification. I fully understand the feelings of the protesters who blew up the prayer in the square in Tel Aviv, since their opponents are using steps no less problematic in the opposite direction. But still, I do not justify them (nor their opponents). This whataboutism leads us to ruin, since each side now feels the leash is off and anything goes. And if Benny Gantz, who tries to preserve the remnants of the rules of the game, condemns the violence in the square or against Levinstein, he immediately receives ugly slurs as the last of the traitors (see here and here). That’s no way to conduct a discussion. You can’t lament deviations from the rules and, in doing so, annihilate them completely. That applies to both sides. If you’ve nonetheless decided the game is over and therefore you don’t accept its rules (like freedom of speech and worship), don’t complain about those who deviate from its rules and use their governmental power against you.
And finally, I am not speaking of unity, nor in its name. The calls for unity—more or less fake (including prayers at the Kotel and other sticky acts)—are, in my view, whitewash. Indeed there is a majority of the nation opposed to the religious fanaticism of both sides—but when you turn to the two religions now confronting one another, this call is fake. Certainly when you hear it from people who want unity from one side only while continuing in their path trampling others. I have no interest in unity, nor is there any need to bury our heads in the sand and deny its absence and the depth of the rifts. My words here are said in the name of freedom and liberalism—not in the name of unity.
I don’t want you to be united with me. I want you to argue with me, to mock me and belittle me if you think that’s right, to protest and preach against me, to engage in religionization and secularization in the city square, to tussle politically (fairly) for your agendas—but let us live. Perhaps the time has come to organize a prayer at the Kotel against unity and against prayers for unity. I only hope that the believers of the two religions won’t unite to blow it up (oops, I remembered that there are partitions at the Kotel)…
Thus end the journalistic scoldings. In the next column I want to enter a bit into the theoretical dimension of this dispute.
This is a poster published in 1913, around the Hebrew-language controversy with the German, a-Zionist “Ezra” association. Thanks to Chayuta, who photographed this picture yesterday at the museum in Migdal Shalom and sent me the photo.
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You started by saying that both sides are the same in their intolerance. Then you criticized liberalism a little more, but you went back to blaming both sides. I just want to clarify:
For your part, the two sides are not similar. I am in favor of letting the Pride parade march, but you need to remember that there are two differences:
A. The Pride parade hurts religious feelings (why externalize it, etc.) and those prayers when there is a (large) group that has organized should not hurt liberal feelings. So there is no harm here at all against harm to the religious dimension in the case of a Pride parade (as mentioned, in the liberal dimension both things are indeed equal). As long as the law does not separate religion from state, then part of the public dimension is also religious (the merits of this can be debated, as we know, and my personal opinion is that after the events of the past year, I do not have an ounce of faith in the separation of religion from state in the State of Israel because the liberal side is charged with intense hatred of religion, but we will leave that aside).
B. Another difference is, as you said, that if 2,000 people were to gather in Jerusalem and demand a march, that is one thing, and if they gather everyone and decide to do it specifically in Jerusalem, that is something else. Bottom line, it does not really matter, but the difference is a difference.
The topic was the Yom Kippur riots, so I criticized the ’liberals’ more. In other columns, I criticize the religious conservatives much more.
A. I wrote this distinction (about making the separation a ‘religious’ thing that hurts the feelings of the secular).
B. I didn't understand this division.
My comment was the opposite. In my opinion, you criticized the religious much more than the norm, because of A’ Delkman.
A. Yes, I saw, I only brought this up to argue why there is no symmetry. Because the religious in Dizengoff did not harm anyone, neither religious nor liberal.
B. You also wrote this: Zeira did not bring buses of worshipers. If there is a sufficient public in Jerusalem that demands a march, that is one thing, but if some party is interested in a march specifically in Jerusalem, that is another thing.
A. I criticized them for their behavior on several different levels, not necessarily in the matter of prayer. For example, forcing marriage and divorce according to the law, for example taking exemptions from civil duties at the expense of others, and of course also intolerance towards the Reform mission, etc. So in this column they received much less than they deserve. I explained above why.
B. True, but the analogy is not for Zairah. See previous section. In the demonstrations against the Supreme Court or against the draft in Jerusalem, they did not bring buses? A strange claim. They bring buses to the demonstrations.
Now both (both?) sides will come and say that you are soft, that you dance beautifully, that you are a smartass, etc. etc. And it's a shame that they will say that. You wrote well this time.
Doron, my whole point is that both sides here are one side: the intolerant side. It's no wonder that this side attacks tolerant liberals like me.
I understood your point perfectly. And I have bad news for you: you and I are on the same side on this matter. My condolences.
I understood very well that you understood and that you are on my side. I was just pointing out to you that what you wrote is self-evident from what I wrote.
I understood that you understood that I understood that we understood each other. Now try to paraphrase it 😉
First of all, thank you for the column (and the dedication)
I agree that the protest is behaving like a not very successful religion,
But I think that in contrast to religion as it is expressed in politics, our empty cart presents one important detail that is missing from the full cart, and that is common sense.
Although not everyone uses it, I will quote my response to a friend who found it appropriate to position S. Bresler (who, by the way, I highly recommend following her nephew, Amir Bresler, who is one of the best drummers in Israel if not the world today) as the opposing position to the government, when in fact she is serving as a convenient straw man.
I am not interested in discussing either Bresler or Ben Gvir
I do not listen to Bresler, read or watch,
Ben Gvir is a minister in the government so I am exposed to him more
But it is not by their mouths that we live, thank God we have the brains to think and eyes to see and yet he is a complete scoundrel
I didn't understand the argument.
I didn't mean to respond in this sub-thread, and I can't respond to your response…
You presented secularism as an empty basket, but secularism recognizes one significant value, which is our responsibility for the world, and an attempt to learn from history in a less selective way. Maybe it's not important.
This connects with my response to my friend, I oppose the government, and I oppose the dominance of the Messianic/fascist faction in the government. But I have no problem with separate prayers (I think it's right to regulate in legislation that separation for the purpose of prayer is permitted in the public space), I have no objection in principle to separate hours at the fountains (although I understand that secularists find it very annoying, because of course the status quo should be opened up long ago, and separation added and religious coercion ignored and the fact that a lot of our taxes go to religion is annoying).
But it is the duty of the moderate public who is able to communicate with others to make an effort and do it.
If you still don't understand, I'd appreciate it if you could explain which claim you don't understand.
So we completely agree on what is appropriate in the public sphere.
Regarding the secular wagon, everything you described is not secular. Some seculars will adopt it and some will not. Some religious people will adopt it and some will not.
I really don't understand the insistence on continuing to write about liberalism here when it's clear that this is progressivism. There are progressives here who claim to be liberals. This in itself is a problematic lack of understanding. Liberalism = freedom. Progressivism = equality. You can't really talk to real progressives because since they don't have an objective reality (since they are postmodernists) and therefore there is no objective truth and objective justice, any word in the language can be used by them for any meaning they want. Real liberals really can't hold liberalism as a religion because freedom is indeed a value but a (vital) means for realizing other values. They would need some other religion to believe in. Therefore, really, if there are real liberals today, they are only in Likud. Everyone else is either progressive or is led by them and supports their actions. Progress is indeed the most fanatical and opaque religion that has ever existed on earth, and I predict that it will cause a third world war, since the war between the progressives and everyone else is not only in Israel but throughout the Western world and even affects its attitude towards the Eastern world (weakening it against the evil powers from the East).
You took an obvious division (which basically repeats what I wrote) and managed to skew it. The Likud are about as liberal as Shas.
Liberals in the Likud are a sub-movement. Like Yariv Levin, for example, who you yourself said was a true liberal. Both Yisrael Katz, and Netanyahu with all your mockery of him. At the time, there were other members of Knesset. The fact that they are in cooperation with Shas and therefore do not bring their policies to expression does not mean that they are not liberals. It means that they pay a price for cooperating with them. Since the Haredim are still the tongue of the scales (otherwise their price would be much lower), then their price increases over time. Just because they are liberals does not contradict their nationalism, and therefore this cooperation is much easier than that of the progressives on the left. All the other parties that hate Netanyahu do not care at all about progressivism, whose fanaticism is currently the greatest enemy of the liberals, even more so than that of the conservatives.
Let's put it this way: I would like to see citizenship revoked from both Arabs and Haredim (who did not serve, etc.). No taxes, no services. I have a feeling that the left will oppose this (very much. Because of the Arabs) while the Likudniks will agree. The left doesn't really care about the injustice of the Haredim's lack of contribution to the state compared to what they receive from it, or about its religion of equality. It will gladly train the Haredim to expel settlers (wear a Shtreimel, as Yossi Sarid said). It hates religious people much more than Haredim and even more than that the Likudniks (because of the fascist and the murderer)
Revocation of citizenship for non-service. Sounds very logical.
And that's called liberalism.
The next step is – revocation of citizenship for ‘unproductiveness’, and anyone who is not seen as productive enough by the political establishment will be denied their citizenship, and at the very least their rights.
(A slippery slope, both practical and substantive).
Why not? Rights come without duties? And what does this have to do with political parties? It should be with the consent of the people.
If you meant denial of rights, I apologize for the attack, it is legitimate to deny rights to someone who does not serve.
If you meant denial of citizenship – This is an illegitimate tool to use against someone who is not an enemy of the people, certainly not in a country based on a common Jewish identity.
Also regarding denial of rights, there is a certain range in which it is no longer reasonable to use denial of rights against someone who does not fulfill their duty, even though it is legitimate from a logical point of view, and of course from a legal and statutory point of view (and the more the Haredi public grows and thereby constitutes a greater burden, the more legitimate this demand will be).
And the political troikas are the ones who will decide on Sunday that someone who does not serve is not part of the people, and on Monday that someone who does not serve a significant service is not part of the people, and on Tuesday that someone who does not work 45 hours a week is not part of the people, and so on. Denial of citizenship (and also extreme denial of rights) is a very powerful and violent tool, and should not be used in relation to any social inequality, even if it is done maliciously.
Theoretical liberalism doesn't really interest me.
So in your opinion, there are no liberals at all. After all, today it's either Arabs or Haredim. Both involve increasing allowances and budgets without any return other than voting in the Knesset. The Arabs are ostensibly not in favor of religious laws, but they too have their own rabbis and dayanim who are budgeted for. They do not legislate religious laws, but in general they are a public of enemies or criminals (protectionism, economic crime, etc.). There have been two true liberal governments in recent decades. The Sharon government of the Likud, the Fed, and Shinui (of Tommy Lapid) in 2003. And the Netanyahu government of the Likud, Yesh Atid, and the Jewish Home (Lapid and Bennett) in 2013. Both of these governments did many good things to promote a justified and good liberal economic policy and fell because of the left and leftist policies. That is, because the left was willing to sacrifice liberalism on the altar of the gods of the left. To peace and equality. And may freedom and justice go to hell for them.
The Sharon government fell because of the disengagement that occurred because of the investigation files opened against Sharon (the Greek island). The Netanyahu-Lapid-Bennett government fell because Lapid was not willing to vote for the nation-state law. Because he is truly a pseudo-liberal and the (unjustified) equality was more important to him than all the good things he did in the affairs of the haredim and the number of ministers, etc. And even if he did not believe in this law, he should know that there is such a thing as give and take in partnership. He received almost everything from his partnership and was not willing to give anything. That is why when I hear about true liberals, I grin. There is no such thing. There is always some god and some religion that will be more important than freedom. You can believe in freedom as an essential means but not as a value
Contrary to your habit, I think you are wrong here from beginning to end.
The secularists are not looking for a rabbi. Maybe there are secularists who are looking for a rabbi, but as a group, we are not. I also don't know any of my friends who are looking for a rabbi.
The secularists' cart is not empty. You are holding the rope at both ends: If secularism is an ideology, then it has a cart full of liberalism and pluralism. If secularism is just a lack of religion, then we have no cart at all, and it is probably neither empty nor full. The secularists who blew up the prayer service certainly have a positive ideology.
“The brains were not very interested in the partitions, nor in the law and its existence. They wanted to torpedo the prayer service itself” – You are right in principle but not in the end. We wanted to prevent an organization whose goals are despicable in our eyes from holding a “Gay parade” In Tel Aviv. The prayers did indeed go through in previous years without a problem, because we really don't mind people praying.
One of the essential differences between a pride parade in Bnei Brak and missionary activity in Tel Aviv is that gays don't want to turn others into gays (which is also impossible) but to protest against their discrimination. A Jewish leader, as their leader says, wants to turn us into religious people.
If praying in segregated Tel Aviv is part of freedom of expression, then shouting "shame" is also part of freedom of expression. Attempts at pride parades in religious cities, for example Netivot, were suppressed with violence. It's not symmetrical.
And the thing you're most wrong about is the psychological source of the anger now. What angers us is that for years the religious feelings were stronger, more demonstrative, more demanding, and we gave up on principles because at every step the religious were more important than us, and because we are not united (we don't have a rabbi and we don't want one) both because our demands are not uniform (because we don't actually have a cart) and also because we have sympathy for your religious feelings. And we woke up one day to discover that our desires are never fulfilled, and we are tired of it.
So now we have leaders (not rabbis) and we have demands (sort of) and we have lost sympathy. It's that simple.
So personally I oppose the protest that is expressed in the explosion of prayers, but that's only because it is ineffective and even harmful to my struggle. But opposing the Mustard Mission is not a whim but liberalism.
I personally strongly identify with the desire for the street to be a large “Hyde Park” fountain and everyone to be able to express their opinion freely, but doesn't that simply go against human nature? Haredim will never accept a Pride parade in Bnei Brak, and I don't believe that secularists will accept, over time, a Haredi return to repentance in their districts; there's no point in talking about Muslims praying in the heart of a Jewish neighborhood (and vice versa). Humans are generally tribal and xenophobic, be it from any group or ideology. Isn't the vision presented in the column nothing but a utopia?
In a certain sense, this is indeed a utopia and a shame. As I said, I understand it too, but I don't justify it. But it's worth at least setting a mirror before our eyes and seeing how repulsive the slogans about liberalism and inclusion on all sides are.
Modi, is this contrary to my habit of being right, or contrary to my habit of being wrong but not completely wrong?
1. You may not know secular people who are openly looking for a rabbi, but many of them act as if they are. I talked about that. That conference demonstrated this well, as did the new religion that has been created in recent years.
2. The secular wagon can be full of value content that is not related to secularism. But there are no secular values. You can of course define it as not being a wagon, and that is perfectly fine with me.
3. In my opinion, those who blew up the prayer also do not have a positive ideology. My argument is that they created it as a response to distress. At least many of them. I find it hard to believe that there is someone whose ideology is not to allow people to pray as they wish in public. And certainly not in the name of tolerance and liberalism.
4. Preventing a Pride parade in Tel Aviv is a bad metaphor. Because their parade was not about their pride. They prayed and did not hold an anti-LGBT or pro-Reform march. But preventing a gay parade is also wrong in my opinion.
5. Making you religious is a super legitimate goal. Each of you will decide whether he wants to listen or not. And certainly when he is talking to others and not to you. And by the way, the Pride march does want to make the view of religious conservatives pro (or at least not anti) LGBT. And there is nothing wrong with that. Public domain marches are intended to influence public opinion.
6. Screams of shame are completely legitimate (even if a bit pathetic in my opinion). Where did I say that they were not?
7. In the last paragraph you repeat what I wrote:
And the thing you are most wrong about is the psychological source of anger now. What angers us is that for years the religious feelings were stronger, more demonstrable, more demanding, and we gave up on principles because at every step the religious were more important than us, and that we are not united (we don't have a rabbi and we don't want one) both because our demands are not uniform (because we don't actually have a cart) and also because we have sympathy for your religious feelings. And we woke up one day to discover that our desires are never fulfilled, and we are tired of it.
It's just strange to me that you open the section by claiming that this is where I am most wrong, and then repeat what I wrote.
8. And finally, opposing any mission, religious or secular, is exactly the opposite of liberalism. There is nothing more legitimate than trying to change people's opinions. Opposing this is silencing.
I think the rabbi is right in his criticism of what happened in Tel Aviv on Yom Kippur. But I think the rabbi is being too harsh on the protesters: we need to understand what situation they are in. There is a completely corrupt government here, which is turning us into an exploitative banana republic, corrupt appointments, scandalous transfers of funds, religious coercion, a corrupt dramatic increase in rabbinical positions financed and at the expense of the very population that is protesting, religious legislation (restrictions at the Western Wall, violence against the women of the Western Wall, religion and state, etc.). Transferring billions of shekels is harmful to those populations in the settlements and even worse in Bnei Brak and Beit Shemesh (schools without core studies, avrechims, every Monday and Thursday we hear about additional transfers of funds to the parasitic Haredim). All of this is routine in the current government (and I am deliberately not getting into the issue of reform). It is important to say that the economic burden falls mainly on the protesters, while the government only exploits them in a corrupt manner to the point of bloodshed. I am not here to justify, but what exactly did they expect? A whole year of abuse and there will be no such cases? I must say, to the praise of the secularists, that I am shocked that such horrific events have not happened so far. There is a limit to how much the average secularist can be patient and take metaphorical beatings from the demographic majority.
It seems strange to me that you repeat what I wrote (not just here) and present it as a disagreement with me.
A little girl, alone and innocent
stood up and asked – Why?
“Dad, why is blowing the shofar a shame” ?
A question that was recorded in one of the videos. On the night of the pogrom (well, not a pogrom on a Ukrainian level, but they are learning)
and all the lions of analytics,
and all the tigers of word-washing
will gather and explain, explain well,
that one must consider ….and understand,
and what does a little girl understand
It's a shame that no one heard the little girl because we closed her in from behind with the help of the horribly crowded women and of course it's generally good that she kept quiet because a woman's voice is shameful, but other than that everything is reasonable and logical.
The girl didn't ask why settlers abandoned the holy land of Samaria and spent the holy day on the unclean land of Tel Aviv (as they declared time and time again)
The little girl didn't wonder for a moment why a father who makes sure to expel every Arab shepherd who comes within a foot of the settlement allows himself to occupy the central city square of a public that sees in him their disaster.
But that's what happens when you're a privileged child who grows up to be the mistress of the land
I don't understand the automatic identification of democracy with liberal democracy. The original democratic system allows for the replacement of government by ballot. That's it. The USA of the 1950s was a supreme democracy, despite racial segregation.
I'm sorry to tell you, but in principle there is nothing illiberal about racial segregation or any other background. The problem was that in practice public services (and the like) were not provided equally because of segregation, so that's why they abolished it. But from a liberal perspective, there is no problem with not liking people or wanting to be with them. It is permissible to think (from a liberal perspective) that you are better than others. And the fact that racial segregation was abolished is precisely the sign that the United States was a liberal democracy even then. What it was, however, was not progressive, and that was and still is a good thing.
I don't think secularists are specifically looking for a religious life (that is, at least not as a significant movement but only as individuals), but secularists are definitely looking for an ideology. Without going into the question of whether the word “secular” includes only a negative meaning (as in your position) or also a positive one (as in Modi's position), what is clear is that it is very difficult to defend your way of life without an ideology that will protect you on the political level. Secularists mainly feel (and rightly so) that they are losing in the political arena.
The political arena is precisely what challenges the basic liberal assumptions, because the state is a coercive body by definition (taxes, laws, benefits, etc.). Hence, those who only want to preserve their way of life will forever lose in the political arena to those who try to use the state to impose things on others. Hence, I think, the panic, which may be exaggerated but not at all fake. People with a different ideology are a threat not because of the things they say, which may or may not be offensive, but because of how they vote, which may be a significant threat to the way of life. In order to unite into a significant political force, an opposing ideology is required, and that is essentially what we are seeing right now.
For that matter, even the pilot of specific hours for segregation in the springs – That is all well and good until an inspector comes and hits your body or your pocket to enforce this law. And I think that is where the symmetry is broken. No matter how much Tel Avivians shout shame or protest, they do not use the coercive power of the state to impose an ideology. In fact, what we have seen in the past year (disinvestment, refusal) is precisely the attempt to prevent the state from having this coercive power. Liberalism may want a free market of ideas, but the democratic state gives the winner the power to break the market
So we pretty much agree on the search and the distress. I didn't write that it was specifically a religious sentiment, but a vacuum in general.
The state does indeed challenge liberalism, but practical liberalism (unlike an anarchist) recognizes its necessity but strives for as little involvement as possible, and strives for an ideological Hyde Park. This is what is not happening on either side of the current fence.
I understand all the concerns well, and I also identify with them. I fear them no less than you do. But if, by virtue of these concerns, religious worship and religious people begin to be persecuted, then let them not speak in the name of liberalism, democracy, and tolerance.
No one harms your body or your property to enforce separate hours at springs. Where did you get this nonsense from? How is this different from enforcing any other law?
And finally, right now the liberals are using the power of the state (the courts and the municipality) to persecute religious worship and religious people. So the symmetry has not really been broken. In fact, it has never been so complete. Two fanatical dogmatic groups are fighting each other by violent means in the name of tolerance. This is exactly my description in the column.
In the name of equality, women are also prevented from studying at university in gender segregation.
This too is a use of state power to impose their liberal “faith” on others.
And we haven't talked about the elephant in the room – religious coercion. This is what Yeshayahu Leibowitz said –
when allegations of religious coercion arose (from a well-known figure in his liberal sermons):
“Talk about religious coercion is an abomination when heard from someone who advocates compulsory conscription”.
Rabbi, you wrote something that seems inconsistent with reality because of the ruling…
“The government's laxity in relation to the emotional "vulnerability" of various publics brings us the current horrors. It must not be taken into account. Not Muslims on the Temple Mount, not Arabs in Umm al-Fahm, not Jews in the Pride Parade, and not Tel Avivians in relation to prayers, segregated or not, in Dizengoff Square.”
I think that assuming the state wanted to do what you suggest, it would get stuck in a ruling that would claim that it is forbidden to protest against the Pride Parade and not against Muslims. But against segregation does not make me equal, of course….
Of course, I am against the separation of the mentally ill.. But during prayer time, it is not appropriate to pray behind a woman..
In Israel, there is a built-in asymmetry in which Muslim/Haredi/Mustard/religious communities use violence to prevent any attempt to present an unacceptable position.
We all know what they will do to an innocent group of liberals who try to raise an anti-religious representative on Yom Kippur in a religious community.
It will not end with shouting and pushing, but a right-wing-right-wing-full-full pogrom with piles of bodies.
So after the Muslim-Haredi-Mustard-religious public has prevented them from dealing with uncomfortable opinions at home, the Mustards come and immigrate en masse to the liberal cities to conquer more territory and more holy land.
Zeira Kamshel is a settler who took over a compound that the Tel Aviv municipality had allocated for a synagogue and turned it into his private residence.
Then, after blocking the synagogue with his body, he tries to take over the public domain to allow prayers for the masses who could not find a place in the synagogue.
Zeira, of course, does not say that the hard core of his worshippers arrived personally imported from the Samaritan Hills (a tip for next year, if you want to appear authentically Tel Avivian, you should leave the gun at home).
Zeira has no respect for prayer or Yom Kippur. From his perspective, he is in a jihad to conquer the lands of the infidels in Tel Aviv, and like the Egyptians in the previous Yom Kippur War, he recognizes a weakness in the Tel Aviv enemy who is not ready for war on Kippur, and therefore chooses this day for war.
Peace and thanks for the words.
I would like to comment that while the secularists talk about the value of hearing different opinions and giving a platform to each side and each one and their truth – in their opinion they should indeed act this way and allow even those who challenge this line of thinking to present their opinions. The Haredi/religious/Muslim/Christian believe that there is one truth and I can understand why they oppose different opinions – they believe that these are mistaken and misleading opinions and in the first place they do not advocate the value of hearing other sides. Therefore, it is impossible to come to them with a truncheon … at most you can ask the religious to recognize different opinions but that is certainly not built into their ideology.
You are confusing expressing an opinion with action.
You are welcome to open a newspaper at your own expense and express your opinion.
Anyone who wants to listen can read.
The occupation of Dizengoff Square is not an opinion but a jihadist action of occupying the centers of power of the liberal enemy and silencing it through platforms and partitions.
Dizengoff Square is routinely filled with the local population sitting on mats, couples, friends and families.
On Yom Kippur, the square is routinely filled with children on bicycles (a holiday mitzvah in Tel Aviv)
Setting up a platform and taking over the square after expelling the locals is a typical violent act of the people of the hills who are used to expelling the locals and then establishing a ‘young settlement’ in its place.
I would like to point out that the feeling I got from reading quite a bit of yours is that you are a complete idiot and have created a religion of hatred for the Haredim. Sometimes the criticism is justified, and in such cases many Haredim will agree with the criticism. But even at these times, hatred and disgust overflow between the lines. It is a statement made with religious fervor.
And for that I am sorry.
Why do you write that you are not religious?
And what religiosity do you find in liberalism?
Can I translate the body of the film?
1. Who are the questions addressed to?
2. Who wrote that he is not religious?
3. Why is a question presented here that the entire column is dedicated to answering?
Things to know:
https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-columns/2023_q4/Article-c74aac3cafaea81027.htm
First, I would like to thank you for the excellent column. I will add 2 anecdotes to it. A. The following photo was taken by me yesterday at the Tel Aviv History Museum in the Shalom Tower. It was published in 1913.
I wasn't able to paste the picture, sorry. I'll just add the second anecdote, that when I briefly read the title of this column, I was sure that you were writing memoirs from the real Yom Kippur War, from the cities of Tel Aviv.
The picture has now been added to the end of the column (thanks to Oren). It is indeed incredibly apt. Thank you.
"Freedom of expression" that is completely free and ignores the environment is theoretical freedom of expression.
The implementation of an idea must also take into account the environmental reality.
Therefore, I am not in favor of organizing prayers in the streets of Tel Aviv when there are those who oppose them.
And I am not in favor of the organization's activity in Tel Aviv when it constitutes defiance against some of the residents.
Jewish activity must not cause hatred and violate internal peace.
And if such activity is what it causes, then it is forbidden to do this activity in the place where it causes it.
Democracy and liberalism should not violate the human condition.
And in a situation where they do violate it, it indicates a failure in the same situation in which they violate it.
1. In my opinion, it is not theoretical, although I am aware that people are not perfect. They have feelings and passions. But as I wrote above, in my opinion this picture, even if it is theoretical, is very important. It at least puts us in front of a mirror so that we stop deceiving ourselves and presenting ourselves as liberal and tolerant people who work for democracy. At least there is something to strive for.
2. The fact that you or someone else is “not in favor” can be interpreted in two ways: 1. You are emotionally revolting against it. Completely legitimate. 2. You support preventing such activity. Clearly not legitimate.
Recognition of weaknesses is excellent, but not as a basis for action based on these weaknesses but as an attempt to overcome them. For some reason, people present their weaknesses as ethical reasons. This is similar to a rapist who would justify his actions by saying that he had a strong urge to rape a woman, and perhaps he would add that she even acted in a way that he did not like.
3. The question of whether their activity is morally right or wrong is primarily up to them. Our discussion is whether what is not right in my opinion is still entitled to tolerant treatment, i.e. whether I should allow its existence.
With the way Judaism is conducted and with its representatives, I completely understand the Tel Avivians. The fear that the religious Haredi gang will one day rule us scares me too. (Former Haredi and current religious).
They can set new rules in the spirit of the Torah as they perceive it, and who will be held accountable for it…
Just look at how the Haredi treat the women of the Western Wall for months. There we are less disturbed, because these thugs have become accustomed to what is allowed.
I agree with every word, if this treatment were given to those who do so on the other side. But treating every religious person and every religious activity this way is problematic.
So if they were to do this against a prayer meeting attended by Shas supporters, knowing that these were Shas supporters, wouldn't you criticize them?
I would still criticize, even if perhaps less. Supporters are not the ones who did the actions. And certainly not the actions you described.
I don't quite understand you. Don't you hope that there will be a majority in the government that will prevent the Pride Parade? It's true that from the perspective of liberalism, etc., there is no hope for that, but as a religious person, don't you hope for that? Maybe it's not true in this situation for all sorts of considerations, but isn't that the hope? In the future, we hope (at least I do) that we will build the Temple and there will be a Sanhedrin, etc., and there will be a group that wants to have a Pride Parade or girls who want to walk in a swimsuit on the street - will we allow them to do that?
And it's not quite clear to me what the limit of liberalism is. If you were in control, would you allow Christians/epicursors to set up stalls that convince people to convert to Christianity/atheism? And what about stalls that try to convert people? It's true that from the perspective of liberalism, there is no difference, but from your perspective, there is no difference?
1. I certainly hope very much that there will not be such a majority. I believe in the values of liberalism and also in the values of halakhah, and sometimes there is a conflict and the matter requires a decision. This is not always simple, and I have elaborated on this in several of my posts (see the series of columns on Modern Orthodoxy and in the books on moves among the standing).
2. When there is a Sanhedrin, the reality will be different, and there is no point in dealing with it right now. When we get to know the reality, we will be able to discuss what is right to do about it. I also dealt with this argument in my aforementioned book.
3. True. As far as I am concerned, there is no difference. I oppose the use of the power of the state for religious purposes, both substantive and tactical.
Do you think there are situations where we need to enforce Halacha?
As a rule, no.
Yes, but I'm asking if there are specific situations in which you think Halacha should be enforced. Hearing that such a thing exists from you sounds a bit strange.
You wrote, “Yes, I know, it’s a Jewish state, but it’s also a democratic state. In a democratic state, there is freedom of expression, speech and action, as long as the other person is not harmed.”
Implicit in your words is that you demand that all the conditions of a “democratic state” be met, when a Jewish state is a condition that is subject to the basic premise of a democratic state (and even a liberal one, by the way), and only when all the conditions of democracy are met can one turn to the conditions of a “Jewish state.”
I do not know what the demands of a Jewish state are, and therefore I do not know whether I want the State of Israel to be such, but it is clear that placing the values of democracy overwhelmingly above a Jewish state with a wink of ‘I know, this is a Jewish state’, is only lip service, which covers up the fact that there is no intention to allow Jewish values to sometimes prevail over democratic values.
One possibility for the basic premise of a Jewish state that sometimes compromises with a democratic state: there is no equality between a mission to Judaism and a mission to Christianity. A Jewish state will limit the democratic possibility of freedom of speech, as long as it is about persuading people to leave Judaism, just as it can limit voices calling for the abolition of the state itself (not necessarily that this will happen, but when it does, it is not an illegitimate action as you present it, but a situation in which the value of equality will not be implemented, given that the state is also democratic, and not just Jewish).
Well, I've written about it quite a bit. In short, it's clear that the state is not Jewish. It's just lip service. What is called Jewish in the eyes of most of the public is a collection of moral values that have nothing to do with Judaism. Maybe some folklore, a day of rest on Shabbat and not on Sunday, but nothing substantial.
I accept that, but can't the assumption that the majority of the public wants the state to be democratic with Jewish overtones lead to an answer that explains many questions about the contradiction in behavior (such as the demand to allow Jews to lead a Jewish lifestyle in the public sphere, and in return, the non-demand to allow Muslims to lead a Muslim lifestyle openly in the public sphere)?
My point is that it is true that the practical applications that the average Israeli citizen demands are relatively low, but the idea itself can create a certain division, which will be less democratic, but this is a consequence of the Jewish foundation in the state as well.
It certainly can. But on the margins. The Hebrew language, the Sabbath, the Law of Return, and so on. Nothing related to human and civil rights.
Beyond that, since in my opinion Judaism does not contradict freedom of expression, including missionary preaching, but on the contrary requires them, then from the perspective of both the Jewish state and the democratic state this should not be prohibited. But even without me, there is very broad agreement that the state should allow freedom of religion to all its citizens.
Thank you very much for the article. I agree very much.
This may be a bit unrelated to the topic, but I have a question about the ”Hyde Parker” you wrote that you want to clarify: I also think that every person has the right to express their opinion and we should allow it. But what about a case where the halakha prohibits it? That is, if there is a halakha for the state, for example, not to allow the mass of idolatry, this is supposedly supposed to “win” the right to freedom of expression.
Are there such halakhas? If there were such a halakha, would you support a law that prohibits the mass of Christians (or something similar)? Can there even be a halakha for the state?
Sorry for diverting the topic, but it seems to me to be something that is important to address, because at least from the religious side, I don't think anyone disagrees with you so far, but only on these issues – “Jewishness” of the state.
Reply to my previous post. And here too: https://mikyab.net/posts/82862#comment-76706
I understand that you believe that there are cases of safst nitz where morality prevails over halacha. But still, for a person like me who thinks you are wrong (and apparently it is simply from the story of the Binding of Isaac) – Does halacha also apply to the state? Should the state fulfill the commandment of izvod ez”z (not allowing a Christian missionary)? Is it obligated to desecrate the Sabbath and prevent tchab”tz (if at all public transportation violates individual rights)?
Ostensibly, for people like me, this is their religious duty and not a religious feeling, and they really act consistently and not when ”it is convenient”. They are true liberals, but also true religious. In my opinion, most of the religious public holds this view, so I don't think the criticism of it is relevant.
The binding of Isaac proves nothing. There was a divine command in the prophecy. I have dealt with this more than once. What is the connection between this and the law of the state? It is clear that there are laws for the state or people (public laws). But not for a secular democratic state.
Questions that concern your own view should be addressed to yourself and not to me.
Okay, I understand that we disagree about conflicts between morality and halacha. I'm interested in what you think about circumcision, forced labor, and more.
In any case, that's not what I intended to discuss. I just wanted to say that the liberal religious position is truly liberal. It is not equal to the secular, since the religious are truly liberal, but they have a value that conflicts with halacha, which trumps liberalism. They do it with pain, and with regret for giving up freedom of speech, for example, for the elimination of עז. (You can argue that they are not truly liberal and do not feel this self-tearing in deciding between halacha and morality, but that is already psychology, which is probably true for some of the public. But it is still possible to consistently hold a liberal position and against street missions.)
My questions about the state are not questions about my view. I have brought their implications that stem from my view, but the question of whether the state has laws is independent of the question of who “wins” between morality and halacha.
True, this question may not be directly related to the column, as I have already written, but in my opinion its implications have to do with your conclusions about the liberal consistency of the religious.
If the answer is that the state has no laws, then what you wrote is correct, and the claims of liberalism from the religious side are a thin cover for a fanaticism that opposes hearing the opinion of others in the public sphere. But if the state is indeed committed to halacha, and on the assumption (which I assume you will agree is at least possible even if not probable) that halacha prevails over morality - the religious are truly liberals. They really want freedom of expression, but they have a halachic decree that prohibits it. Like a Jew who does not want to harm his son and yet circumcises him.
Why does a secular democratic state not have such laws? Just because the country is a secular democracy doesn't mean it should be that way. I suppose you're arguing that it should be secular, but why?
You can hold any position and define it as liberal. The gates of formalism have not been closed.
A secular state is a state with many secular people. I would like everyone to be religious, it is not appropriate to ignore the reality that this is not the case. And mission is permitted and desirable even if everyone is religious.
Still, Judge Hadas Ovadia's ruling is disturbing, Judge Amit also said separation==exclusion
How did they fall into the trap?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://supremedecisions.court.gov.il/Home/Download%3Fpath%3DHebrewVerdicts/23/740/071/e01%26fileName%3D23071740.E01%26type%3D4&ved=2ahUKEwj8gOTn09iBAxWBU6QEHWUCBd4QFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1gA3kOUnD6PsYvWVYIsL-x
Hi Rabbi Michi, thanks for the words.
As far as I understand, the value “doubt” is essentially a secular value, since a religious perception must have things to which it will refer with certainty. No?
Please give me your attention.
Absolutely not. For both sides: not all secular people are skeptical, nor are all religious people dogmatic. And besides, doubt is not a value but a cognitive state.
Wouldn't it be better to instead tell everyone that everyone should do what they want in the public space where they want each group to speak in their area what they think, like the Haredim, not to see a group of Haredim come to live in Tel Aviv and say messages that are opposite to the majority of the city [especially a city with a clear view like Bnei Brak, only to the other side], but rather to build a safe zone for itself where there are clear principles that are not talked about, like Torah from Heaven, etc. In my opinion, the rabbi's proposal is not practical, but just a platonic theory. Maybe it's beautiful in the book, but when giving practical instructions, one should also consider the fact that people are people and they want a safe and quiet place for their views and that they can raise their children in this way without having to justify themselves to others all the time. The rabbi should have attacked the Rosh Yehudi organization. What is it doing in a city with a distinctly secular character? It will open its beit midrashim not in Tel Aviv but in a religious area. And anyone who wants to come will come, and not infiltrate like a group of idiots into a city with a clear character.
In practice: Any place with a clear character does not allow people from the outside to try to change it, only people from the inside who are part of the community/city
No. There is no value in freedom of expression where everyone agrees. In other places, it has value.
What contradicts what I wrote?
Of your shoes that you open your mouth about a rabbi and a great man like Yigal Levinstein.
He founded one of the most magnificent educational institutions in the country.
A man of kindness and charity.
A Torah-beater among the people of Israel.
A man who educated the best of our sons to reach officer status in the highest-quality IDF units.
(Guess where the commander of the 1st Battalion studied).
So one can wonder about his terminology on a very specific subject. But I do not agree with disparaging statements like yours, and I strongly protest.
Thanks for the column! You took the words right out of my mouth. And yet, a small question:
As a psychology student, I know that there is no limit to the ease with which you can influence a person and make them do almost anything you want. I want to say that any group of people, with the right psychological strategies, can “convert” another group to the views of the ”converters” very easily. Thus, a certain problem of freedom of expression arises. Do you think a “pride march” (or something more controversial) should be allowed in Bnei Brak that is organized by psychologists, evolutionary biologists and economists who know exactly the weaknesses of humans and will touch them at exactly the right points? And similarly, should a Jewish leader be allowed to hold activities in Tel Aviv that are organized with the best minds to persuade people to convert to Judaism? To cast content, here are some examples: you can press emotional points, guarantee meaning, provide money, vouchers, scare, bring in artists to sing or celebrities to support, and more examples.
You can't ban influences. Next, ban advertisements or political propaganda made by professionals to exert influence. People need to behave responsibly and know how to critically examine arguments and positions. Those who don't do this are at their own risk.
That all means are lawful is one thing.
But are all goals lawful?
Should certain topics be restricted?
If someone were to give speeches in Dizengoff in favor of the murder of LGBT people, should they be allowed to do so?
See the next column.
Comparing the two sides and ignoring two clear differences:
1. Although I guess that Jewish leaders do not support the Pride parade, but they did not blow it up. So it is true that elegant liberalism is to support their right to march and Jewish leaders are not there, but they are still much more liberal than anti-Semites.
2. Jewish leaders may not be the most patient, but at least they are not hypocrites. The anti-Semites came in the name of liberalism and as a defense of liberalism and made riots against people who are not as liberal as they are
Not true about the prayer itself. There was a mixed prayer later and no one tried to blow it up, it was just the separation and spread of the phenomenon in different spaces because of factors trying to turn this ancient value into a contemporary norm.