Evil in the World: The Big Picture (Column 547)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In Column 541 I dealt with the question of Halakhah and morality, namely the moral meaning of Halakhah and the relationship between Halakhah and morality. My conclusion was that these are two independent categories. Similar questions arise regarding the relationship between reality and morality, that is, the meaning of evil in the world and its relation to God. These questions were sharply highlighted following the recent columns about the remarks of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu (Columns 543 and 546), especially the last column which touched on this more directly. In the comments to that column (see especially the thread that begins here with Dror, and the addition of the “cobbler’s mate” I was graciously given here) and also in the question here (which apparently arose due to that column), the issues became even sharper and a discussion developed which I thought had no place there because I had already addressed it—but it became clear to me that this was not so. In the course of these discussions I was surprised to discover that although I have quite a few references to the question of evil in the world—both in the Q&A (such as here and many more; search: “natural evil” and “human evil”) and in certain columns (like Column 214 which I mentioned there), and of course in the second book of the trilogy—I have not yet written here on the site a column that presents the full picture on this matter. So here it is. Afterwards you can reassess whether I indeed received a “cobbler’s mate,” or perhaps it was a “Pyrrhic mate.” In my view, neither.
I must preface that, because of the breadth of the subject, I will be brief here on issues that have been discussed elsewhere—even if some are very important and essential to my discussion here. I will refer where possible to other places, since my aim here is to sketch the outline of the full picture, even at the expense of detail on specific points. If someone struggles with or wishes to comment on a particular point in my words, I would be very grateful if before posting the comment they would glance at the sources I have linked. It is entirely possible that I addressed there the very difficulty that troubles them.
Point of Departure: God’s Goodness
The starting point for the discussion is God’s goodness. There are countless sources for this from Scripture and, of course, from Hazal and the entire literature of Jewish thought (for those to whom all this speaks): from “A God of faithfulness and without iniquity; just and upright is He,” to “The Lord is good to all, and His compassion is over all His works,” and many more. There is no point in elaborating on this here due to its obviousness. In any case, this is the starting point of this discussion, and for one who does not accept it, the discussion is pointless. Therefore I place this assumption at the outset.
The Difficulty: Reality Is Not Perfectly Good
One can argue about whether reality is good or bad. Seemingly, Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel disputed this (Eruvin 13b), and in conclusion all agreed that it would have been more comfortable for a person not to have been created. One can debate the meaning of that conclusion, but it is quite clear that reality has bad aspects as well, and for our purposes this suffices. There are people or groups who in at least some situations suffer greatly, and the question that arises is: how does God do this? If He is good, I would expect the works of His hands to be good. It is not plausible that a good being produces deeds so evil. Many have already cried out about this: “Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justice?” “Why do the way of the wicked prosper?” and the like. One illustration of this difficulty is “the righteous who suffers,” but that is only an example of the more general problem of evil. People and animals suffer in this world, and even where there is guilt it is not always possible to find proportionality between what they did—that is, the degree of their guilt and what they deserve—and what they actually endure.
Background Assumption: Active Divine Involvement in the World
Clearly, in the background of this difficulty lies the assumption that God, the Creator of the world, also has the capacity to control all that happens in it. He created our world and governs it, and therefore the question arises whether such governance is consistent with His goodness. This assumption itself requires discussion. It is clear that God has control over all that occurs—that is, He can intervene and change as He wishes. But it does not appear that He makes use of this capacity.
Regarding the extent of His involvement, three positions can be presented: (a) Some will say that He produces everything that happens in the world—from the eggs of lice to the horns of rams—everything is the work of God’s hands. No blade of grass grows without an angel over it telling it to grow. (b) Others think there are events in the world that are God’s doing and others that are not. He is involved in the world, but not everything that happens here is from Him. See this in detail in the article by Rabbi Shmuel Ariel. (c) I have written more than once that, in my humble opinion, He is probably not involved here at all (perhaps except for sporadic cases of which there is no way to know).
According to my approach, stories of miracles and of providential “hands” experienced by people are usually the result of hasty inference and lack of probabilistic literacy. So too with historical processes (such as redemption and the establishment of the State of Israel, victories in wars, and the like). True, there are clear sources that He is involved—from the Bible, Hazal, and all the commentators—but to my judgment reality teaches otherwise. In practice this does not happen, and one who is honest with himself must admit it. At the very least there is no indication of His involvement. I will not return to this here, for I have dealt with it elsewhere at length (see at length in Columns 280 and 298 and the references there).
The biblical sources that clearly indicate His involvement can be explained in several ways. I suggested there that God changes policy, and as the world and humanity mature, He grants them more independence—until in our days He is no longer involved at all (like a parent and children). But whether one accepts this or not, reality itself speaks a very clear language. The fact that we were educated to view a sober look at reality as the counsel of the evil inclination, and that piety obligates us to deny common sense—that is a problem of the educators, not ours. In my eyes, a person must maintain intellectual honesty even if his conclusions are labeled “heresy.” Truth is never disgraceful, nor can it be heresy (even if various preachers insist on presenting it as such and explain to us constantly that faith demands ignoring common sense).
For our purposes here, it is important for me to stress that my conclusion regarding the absence of God’s active involvement in the world is not merely an ad hoc answer to the problem of evil (as I will show below). In those columns I brought very strong arguments for this view even independent of the problem of evil, and I also showed that people actually hold it even if they do not admit it (for fear that it constitutes heresy in a principle).
Back to the Difficulty of Reality and Morality
When a terror attack or traffic accident occurs, for example, voices immediately arise that we do not know the calculations of the Almighty: why it was fitting for those people or children to die. But the assumption is that in some sense they indeed deserved it (stated differently: their death is justified). If it happened, then apparently that is what was supposed to happen—only we do not understand why. I already mentioned here the interview with the cousin of the two children who were murdered in the attack on Friday two weeks ago. He said there that this righteous family accepted the judgment, and everyone there understands that this is apparently what God decided, even if they do not know why. He added that it is clear to everyone that even if the terrorist had not decided to murder them, it would have happened to them in another way (an accident, illness, and so on). Some of you may think these are extreme and unrepresentative statements, but I disagree. They are indeed extreme but very representative. This is the prevalent approach in the public, even if in books and various ideologies there are of course other approaches. Especially when one puts the difficulty squarely before the eyes—then, and only then, everyone immediately discovers that they themselves do not hold such a position. But for some reason this is the typical and prevalent religious discourse.
At the basis of such statements lies the assumption that the event occurred by God’s agency; therefore, if the children were murdered, it is clear that God decided they should die. This brings me back to the three conceptions I described above. Statements like these express the first conception. It is essentially a kind of Druze-style fatalism (“every bullet has an address”). If someone died, apparently he deserved to die, and it would have happened in any case. Note that this is the conclusion both of those who propose explanations for such phenomena (the children were murdered to punish us or their family, or to teach us or their family something, or any other fantasy) and of those who say we do not know the heavenly calculations. The assumption of all is that there is such a calculation—that is, the result is a corollary of some heavenly calculus, which we may not understand.
This approach naturally arouses the difficulty of reality versus morality: if God is good, how can He do such things?! By contrast, one who holds the second approach (that there are things not done by Him) should not resort to such statements, for it may be—and is even highly likely—that this case belongs to the category not wrought by God, since, as recalled, He is righteous and good and His compassion is over all His works. If something bad happened, it likely did not come from Him—“no evil descends from Above.” If so, there is no need to say we do not know heavenly calculations, for it is not at all clear there was any such heavenly calculation here. Needless to say, one who holds the third approach (mine) does not need such statements at all.
According to the last two approaches, there is, of course, a question: why did God not intervene and prevent the suffering and pain? Even if He did not do it with His own hands, we still expect a moral being to intervene and prevent it. This certainly arises according to the second approach. In the third, it is a matter of His principled policy not to intervene, and therefore the difficulty is lesser—though it still requires some explanation.
What Is Moral Conduct?
Many who hold the first (and also the second) position argue that indeed God is good in all His ways, and it is also true that everything that occurs here is His handiwork; nevertheless there is no contradiction between reality and those two assumptions. There are hidden moral considerations underlying God’s conduct, and we do not understand everything. Who can know the mind of the Most High?! Do we understand why a corpse defiles or why pig is forbidden to eat? God’s conduct in the world is in the realm of “decrees” we cannot comprehend.
In Column 541 I presented a similar argument and wrote that it empties morality of content. Killing a baby who did nothing and could do nothing is not moral. There is no possible explanation for it; therefore one cannot say there is an explanation we do not understand. One who tries to argue that such an act is moral due to hidden considerations of one sort or another simply empties the concept “morality” of content. He essentially admits it is not moral, but replaces the meaning of the term “morality.” That is not a solution to the difficulty but a surrender of the assumption that God is moral (in the accepted sense of the term). As recalled, our discussion proceeds on that assumption; hence this dubious “solution” is irrelevant. In Column 457 I explained that such an approach turns the statement about God’s goodness from a claim into a definition, rendering it empty and contentless.
Other Justifications
One could formulate a slightly different justification. True, from the perspective of moral considerations such conduct is improper. Babies who did nothing should not suffer. Period. But God has other considerations, presumably global ones, because of which He nonetheless had to harm those babies. Note that this is not a moral justification, but some other type of justification. For example, a doctor causes pain to his patient in order to heal him. The act is indeed painful to the patient, but it is justified since ultimately it is for the patient’s benefit. Likewise, the suffering of babies is indeed not moral and has no moral justification, but one can still justify it by the existence of other considerations, not from the realm of morality—for example, the tikkun of the sefirah of Netzach in Hod, or an attempt to teach a lesson to the society to which those babies belong, and the like.
Such a direction is of course possible in principle, but even here two difficulties arise:
- According to this, we cannot offer a moral interpretation for God’s actions, as Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, for example, did. It may be that the events in question have various hidden justifications and that indeed there is no moral justification here. For example, how can one infer that the suffering of babies in the earthquake in Turkey is because Turkey is hostile to Israel? Perhaps it is to achieve other hidden aims (Netzach in Hod, and not deterring the wicked Turks from hostility to Israel)? It is manifestly immoral to inflict such suffering on babies; therefore it is quite reasonable that the act has other aims.
But one might answer that God has no alternative way to deter the Turks. The sacrifice of the babies was necessary to achieve the desired and proper outcome. Which brings me to the more substantive difficulty:
- This is a situation in which an action X that is not moral (the torture and slaughter of babies) is required to achieve an outcome Y that is desirable—spiritually, theologically, or even practically in our world (deterring the Turks, as above). But in such a situation I would expect an omnipotent agent to act otherwise: to bring about Y without needing X. “Is anything too wondrous for the Lord?!” Why not deter the Turks by killing Erdoğan, harming his generals, targeted assassinations of the wicked in the Turkish establishment or even among the public? Why does God resort to the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands? As for the thousands of adults killed—one can feign naivete and claim they were all, to the last, anti-Semites and potential terrorists who happened to gather in the same region in Turkey and Syria (ignoring that a significant part of the quake occurred in a Kurdish area, hardly considered an enemy of Israel). But what guilt do the babies have? Could one not deter our enemies without torturing them to death?
Even I, a mere worm and not a man, could suggest to God a thousand other, more moral ways to achieve that aim. And we have not yet spoken of the fact that those wicked Turks do not know why this calamity befell them; so what is the point of inflicting it? They are not engaging in soul-searching (they do not possess Rabbi Eliyahu’s deep grasp of the heavenly accounts which he “does not understand,” yet that does not stop him from explaining them in great detail to all Israel and the world). I therefore assume they will not change their policy toward Israel because of the disaster. And if it is merely punishment, retribution, or a sanction not intended to deter—then is it justified to inflict such punishment on babies who have not sinned? It is manifestly immoral.
Can One Judge God?
Mordechai, may he live long, in an angry comment to the previous column (see from here onward) argued that God is the Baal HaBayit (as the saying goes: “husband of the house”), since He created the world; therefore He has the right to do here whatever He wishes, including killing and causing suffering to whomever He wants—guilty or not, justified or not. We cannot judge Him for such actions.
Although it is very hard to contend with such resolute faith and such impressive fear of Heaven, this is, of course, nonsense. He is essentially claiming that God is not moral. Even a person who has a “right” to abuse an animal that belongs to him is not moral if he does so. The question is not a legal one of rights but a moral one. Beyond that, God Himself tells us that He acts morally and lovingly toward all His creatures; therefore, we can certainly judge Him on that premise. He perhaps was not obligated to be moral (in my view He was; see Column 457), but if He Himself says He is moral, then the question of the morality of His conduct is certainly in place. Even according to Mordechai’s strange view, there is at least a claim of logical inconsistency, even if not of immorality. One can of course say that His morality is exalted and incomprehensible to mere mortals like me, and certainly it is not our base, inferior human morality. But that, of course, empties the statements about His morality of content and turns them into definitions (see also on this in Column 457). Moreover, the whole discussion about “the righteous who suffers” and the theological ponderings of thinkers throughout the generations—from the Bible to our day—assume that there is room for such questions and propose answers to them. Therefore, one way or another, I am conducting the discussion within that framework.
Between a Question and a Contradiction
It is very important to clarify another point here. Often people do not distinguish between a question and a contradiction (kushya). A question points to a lack of understanding. Thus, for example, a person may wonder why one must don tefillin or not eat pork. I do not understand these commandments, but that says very little about God and much more about me. I assume there is a good answer, although due to my human limitations I do not know it. Nor should this cause me to abandon my obligation to don tefillin—at least if I have trust in God and a commitment to His commands.
That is as far as questions go. By contrast, if I have a contradiction—and certainly if I have an outright inconsistency—the situation is altogether different. For example, suppose I think there is a contradiction between His foreknowledge of the future and our free will; that is a contradiction, not a mere question. Here I have no option to remain committed to both opposing sides without knowing the resolution. The reason is very simple: if I believe He knows everything in advance, then that contradicts the assumption of free will. If so, it turns out I both believe in free will and do not believe in it simultaneously. But that is empty of content. I have uttered words from my mouth (or keyboard), but they have no meaning. Therefore, it is impossible to believe logical contradictions—unless someone clarifies to me that it is not a true logical contradiction.[1]
If so, one cannot say about God a thing and its opposite, and what is somehow called the “doctrine of the unity of opposites” is mere empty verbiage (unless it deals with something that is not a logical opposition). Hence, to our matter: to say that He conducts Himself in a perfectly moral manner and also does acts that are manifestly immoral is a frontal logical contradiction and therefore impossible (see also sources in Column 303 and in this article, though it is not necessary here). To say He is moral yet causes, by His own hand, immense suffering to babies who have not sinned is an oxymoron. By contrast, one can believe that God departs from the laws of nature—that is, performs actions that contravene natural law (miracles)—for there is no principled problem here: the mouth that forbade is the mouth that permitted, and if He created the laws of nature He can also depart from them or suspend them.
The problematic nature of such arguments can also be seen from a slightly different angle. The presence of a contradiction in a system of thought is a proof by contradiction that at least one of its premises is false. If premise X brings me to a contradiction, this is a proof by contradiction that X is false—or alternatively that I must relinquish one of the other premises that led to the contradiction. Just as in mathematics, so in a framework of faith: a contradiction proves that something within that framework is not true.
Moreover, from a logical contradiction one can infer any conclusion (and also its opposite). Therefore one who holds a contradictory set of beliefs, in fact, believes in nothing—or in everything. He believes that God exists and also that He does not, that He is good and also not good, that He is providential and also not, that He took us out of Egypt and also not, that His color is green and also colorless, and so on. This empties our discourse and thought of content, and even for this reason alone such an approach cannot be a real option for us.
Our Logical and Ethical Indifference
Alas, we have become accustomed to living with these contradictions. In recent generations no one gets excited anymore about the problems of evil or “the righteous who suffers.” When we see horrific events like a terror attack, an accident, an earthquake, etc., statements automatically arise: “Ah, this is ‘the righteous who suffers,’” or “We do not know the heavenly calculations,” and thus everything is neatly resolved (and as noted, there are also those who, after this “were it not that I fear,” immediately supply learned explanations). Prophets, commentators, and thinkers have addressed this—so all is fine. But the fact that they addressed it teaches me nothing. After all, answers are not to be found there.
Well, but perhaps we are small and do not understand? Here enters my claim that “the righteous who suffers” is a contradiction, not a question. Evil resulting from a divine act—given the assumption that God is a perfectly moral being—is a contradiction, not a matter of incomprehension. There is a contradiction to the assumption of God’s goodness; hence it is insufficient to claim we do not understand everything. As noted, there is no possible moral explanation for the suffering of babies who have not sinned. An omnipotent being who chooses an immoral path when He has more moral options is an immoral being. One cannot accept His morality in light of the facts we encounter in reality. We are forgiving toward those who themselves have undergone terrible suffering (like Holocaust survivors), but in truth there is no principled difference between those who encountered reality and experienced suffering and those who sit in armchairs and do theology (like me). The former are less inclined to accept such “explanations,” and they are right. If I, from the philosopher’s armchair, permit myself to utter meaningless words that answer nothing and keep living—that does not mean there is any possible justification.
The only way to remain with the belief that God is moral together with a sober look at the world and without emptying the concept “morality” of content is to examine the assumptions that led us to this contradiction (as noted, a contradiction is a proof by contradiction). I now come to this. But first I must distinguish between two kinds of evil.
Two Kinds of Evil: Human and Natural
For the continuation of the discussion we must distinguish between human evil and natural evil (this, too, has arisen on the site more than once and can be found with a simple search). Natural evil is suffering and pain caused by earthquakes, tsunamis, pandemics, and the like. Human evil is suffering and pain caused by people’s voluntary actions (non-volitional acts by people are considered, for our discussion, natural evil; see more below). Each kind of evil requires separate treatment, which I will now do. I will begin with human evil.
Human Evil
Reuven chooses to do an evil act—such as causing suffering or death to Shimon—and succeeds. The first question is whether God did this or Reuven—or perhaps both together (that is, perhaps there is no contradiction between attributing the act to Reuven and attributing it to God)? From the very claim that Reuven did this by choice, it follows that he could also have chosen otherwise. That is, what was done here was not God’s will, and certainly not God’s deed. In fact, this is how one should describe every sinful act (halakhic or moral) done by a person. There is no logic in claiming that God did this through him, not only because this empties his free choice of content but also because if God did it through him there is no reason to blame Reuven. Beyond all that, there is no logic in saying that God did something—or forced us to do something—that He Himself does not want done and even forbade us to do.
If so, it is clear that Reuven can succeed in harming Shimon even if Shimon does not deserve it and even if God did not decide Shimon would be harmed. This is what the Gemara says (Hagigah 5a): “There is one who is swept away without justice.” And R. Hananel there wrote: “For example, a person who killed his fellow.” That is, if Reuven chooses to kill Shimon, he can succeed even if Shimon does not deserve to die. This is the meaning of the possibility (granted to all of us) to choose evil. In Column 436 I elaborated on this and explained that there is no escape from this conclusion. Claims that whatever someone does to us we must have deserved do not hold water logically, and in particular do not cohere with the assumption of free will. This is why God had to harden Pharaoh’s heart so he would do to us what God expected him to do. Without the hardening of the heart, it was up to Pharaoh; he could have decided not to do what God wanted done. Of course, God can take away a person’s free choice or protect the potential victim and cause Reuven to fail to harm him. But in such cases the harm is Reuven’s deed, not God’s.
Thus, when it comes to human evil, the question is not why God causes harm to an innocent person, for He did not cause the harm—it was the other person who decided to harm him. The question here is at most why God did not prevent it—why He did not intervene and take away the perpetrator’s choice if the victim did not deserve to be harmed.
This is already an easier question, for God is not the direct wrongdoer but at most one who did not prevent the harm. In every legal system, and in Halakhah, there is a clear difference between a person who harms another and one who does not prevent the harm or fails to save him from it. This is true regarding people and also regarding God. Still, this leaves us with a question needing an answer—especially with respect to God. We would also expect a moral person to prevent harm if he can. And of a moral and omnipotent being we certainly expect intervention to protect innocent victims and not allow others to harm them for no reason.
There is an important difference between the two questions. If God were the direct wrongdoer, then a priori no explanation would be possible. Above I explained that this is a contradiction, not a question; hence it will not help to say we do not understand and the like. Assuming we are dealing with an innocent person, there can be no explanation—moral or otherwise (see above)—that justifies harming him. But if Reuven is the wrongdoer and the question is only why God did not intervene—here it is a question, not a contradiction, and in my opinion it can indeed have an answer.
Here is my proposal for a possible answer (at least to demonstrate that an answer is possible and that there is no logical contradiction). If God were to intervene, free choice would be taken from people. Whenever someone chose evil God would prevent it. De facto, then, we would have no free choice—perhaps only in a very hypothetical sense (only at the level of desire—what we want to do—and not at the level of what actually occurs). But the fact is that God decided to grant us free will, and apparently it is important to Him that our deeds be done by choice (see in Column 170 a possible explanation for this). R. Akiva explains to Turnus Rufus (Bava Batra 10) that God does not provide for the poor because He wants us to do so by our free choice—even though such a policy risks that the poor not be supported due to the giver’s free choice.
One might have expected that from a certain degree of suffering and above He would indeed intervene and save the victim, but there is here a slippery slope and it is unclear where to draw the line. Why is a small suffering justified? Is the great suffering of one person different from the great suffering of thousands or millions? For each one, his suffering is terrible—whether or not there are others around him who also suffer. Therefore one can understand that God decided to “hand His world over to guardians,” i.e., to give the earth to human beings to act in it, manage it, and make decisions freely—with the responsibility upon them for all the consequences. If the Nazis decide to perpetrate a Holocaust, indeed there are innocent sufferers, but that is the result of a failure of humanity, which creates for itself such suffering. So too when Reuven causes Shimon some harm.
One can view this as a situation in which God stands opposite all humanity as a collective and leaves it to manage the world. The suffering generated by bad choices is our fault as a human collective. The difficulty arises when a person looks at humans as a collection of individuals; then there is no justification for a decision by Reuven to cause Shimon, who did not sin, to suffer. But if one views humanity as a collective organism meant to manage its life (like a state or a community; see on this also in Column 539 and much more), then the outcomes are our own doing. In any case, even if someone will claim there is a better model, in my opinion this difficulty regarding God is at the level of a question, not a contradiction: why He decides to give us free choice and not take into His own hands full control over what happens. This admits metaphysical explanations of various kinds (e.g., the one I proposed in Column 170, or another). In any case, there is certainly no contradiction here that demands resolution before accepting both sides. As I explained above, He has no possibility to grant us free choice while retaining for Himself the option to dictate outcomes (i.e., to prevent suffering). This is impossible even for Him (because it is a logical contradiction, not merely an a priori or physical impossibility), and therefore there is no contradiction as to why He did not do so (see this in detail in Column 302).
In fact, we can sum up what I have written so far in Hazal’s dictum: “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven.” What pertains to people’s choices are decisions that pertain to fear of Heaven—that is, decisions with a moral dimension. Such decisions—whether sins between man and God or sins between man and his fellow (moral transgressions that harm or cause suffering to others)—are not in the hands of Heaven but in human hands. Whereas everything else (natural processes or non-volitional human conduct) is indeed in God’s hands—which brings us to the discussion of natural evil.
Natural Evil
I ended the previous section by saying that every event that is not a person’s moral choice is in the hands of Heaven—that is, determined by God. This also follows from the words of R. Hananel in Hagigah that I cited: he assumes that only a person’s actions can harm an innocent person (“without justice”), implying that in his opinion natural events cannot harm innocents. The explanation lies in the fact that such events are in the hands of Heaven (unlike human choices); therefore it is clear that they must be carried out with just calculation. God does not mete out judgment without justice (see on this in Column 436). But, as noted, reality contradicts this. It is a fact that innocents are harmed also by natural disasters. If such disasters are God’s handiwork, how can this be reconciled with God’s goodness and morality? We saw that regarding the suffering of adults one might perhaps claim that everyone harmed deserved it (very strange, but theoretically perhaps possible), but regarding the suffering of babies such a claim cannot stand. I assume that in light of this, even regarding adults we must assume that not everyone harmed by a natural event deserved to die.
Here I propose a move very similar to what I suggested regarding volitional actions—a move that shifts the discussion from a contradiction to a question that can be answered or at least assumed to have an answer. The basis of my proposal is the fact that God decided to create the world so that it runs according to rigid natural laws. This is first of all a fact we all know. It is not entirely clear why He decided thus, but it is crystal clear that He did. I can think of different ideas why He did so. For example, if the world does not operate according to fixed laws, we will not be able to orient ourselves in it and make informed decisions. If there is chaos, and causes do not always generate the same outcomes—how will we know whether to fear fire or whipped cream? How will we know that fires are extinguished with water and not with paper? And so on. But this is only a suggestion; there may be other explanations for this decision. In any case, even if you have no explanation, this is a question, not a contradiction; hence we can assume there is such an explanation even if we do not know it. Conduct according to rigid laws is apparently the way to achieve God’s aims in creation. Even if we have no idea what His aims are, it is hard to argue with this: this conclusion follows clearly from observing reality together with the assumption that God acts rationally and does not do things for no reason.
But if so, the question about God’s goodness versus natural evil already requires preliminary discussion. Assuming the world must operate according to rigid laws to achieve the aims of creation, then again natural evil is not caused by God but by the laws of nature. True, He created (legislated) the laws of nature, but the claim that He should have prevented natural evil assumes another significant premise: that there exists another system of rigid natural laws that would lead the world to precisely the same aims and with equal success—but without causing undeserved suffering. The big question is: whence do we know that such a system exists?
I have no way to prove either way, but if I had to bet I would bet that no such system exists. I am, of course, speaking of a rigid system of laws (not an ad hoc adjustment of nature to desired outcomes—that is not a rigid system). I mean a system of laws that yields exactly the same outcomes as the current laws of nature but without the unjust harms to people or animals—only those would change in the alternative system. In every situation where harm to an innocent is expected, the new laws would produce a different outcome; but in all other situations they would yield exactly the same outcomes. It seems to me very unlikely that there is any rigid legal system that could do this. This is, of course, only my view; yet for our purposes it suffices for me to argue that the claim against God can arise only on the assumption that such an alternative system exists. As long as you have not shown it exists, there is no room for a claim against God. We have reached a logical contradiction to which even God is subject: He cannot create a rigid system of laws that cannot exist—just as He cannot create a round triangle or a triangle whose angles sum to 217 degrees, or a square whose diagonal is shorter than its side. In this article I discussed this and brought sources from the Rishonim (Rambam and Rashba) who argue that even God cannot act thus—and there is no contradiction to His omnipotence. But I do not need sources: there is a logical proof. The opposite statement is meaningless and contradictory.
If so, the answer to the question of how there is natural evil and how this is consistent with God’s goodness is that natural evil is produced by the laws of nature, and that even God Himself cannot create a system of natural law without elements of natural evil in certain situations. Granted, there remains a weaker claim regarding God: surely He can suspend or freeze the laws when necessary; hence He should have saved innocents from suffering they do not deserve—just as we saw in the previous section regarding human evil.
My answer here parallels what we saw in the previous section. If God were to intervene whenever there is undeserved suffering (to prevent natural evil), again we would no longer have rigid natural laws. If the assumption is that the aims of the world are not achieved if it does not operate by rigid laws, then again there is no justification to demand that God intervene and suspend the laws in all these situations. He can of course do so in very particular situations without our noticing, and perhaps He indeed does. But on large scales it appears that the contradiction between reality and the assumption of God’s goodness is unfounded. The burden of proof lies on the one who raises the difficulty, for he must prove that the aims of creation can be achieved even if God intervenes and prevents natural evil—or replaces the system of laws.
Here too one can speak of different degrees of suffering and build a model of intervention only in the most severe degrees of natural suffering. But again I answer, as above, that there is no clear line that can be drawn on the suffering scale, and there is no justification to distinguish between different levels of suffering (or numbers of sufferers). On the principled level, all suffering is unjustified and calls for intervention; therefore, intervention to prevent suffering means the abolition of rigid natural laws. One way or another, again we see that the suffering is caused by the laws of nature and not by God; and the question why He does not intervene is no longer a contradiction but a question—and with a question it suffices to say that there is a justification we do not understand.
I repeat: the picture I present here is of course only one possibility. It may be that there is an alternative system of laws; it may be that divine intervention beyond some threshold of suffering would still not impede the aims of creation, contrary to my suggestions. But it suffices for me that I have shown the burden of proof lies on the one who challenges God and not on the one who reconciles His conduct. It suffices that there is a possible account as I described to show that there is no longer a contradiction. One who challenges must prove that such a possibility does not exist.
Comparison with Rabbi Eliyahu’s Approach
I assume there will be readers who will ask themselves, in light of the picture I described, what is wrong with Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu’s conception, which I criticized in those columns. He claimed that the earthquake in Turkey was God’s act to punish or deter our enemies. I argued against him that this is an immoral act and therefore unlikely that God did it. I explained here why the question of non-intervention is weaker (because it is a question, not a contradiction). But one could argue that his explanations can also rely on the claim that God cannot punish the Turks without harming children. He too can speak of limits to God’s omnipotence. How is he different from me?
This comparison is incorrect. If one accepts the premise that there are limits on God Himself, then it is unclear how he infers that the aim was to punish the Turks. Perhaps He had a different aim altogether and all the suffering Turks are merely side effects of these actions? And why look for explanations at all if he too agrees that at least some of these outcomes have no explanation (they are the result of constraints)? Is it not more reasonable and logical to say that all that happens here is the result of constraint? Surely something incomprehensible and immoral occurred. Even Rabbi Eliyahu admits this—certainly after his apology. So the obvious interpretation is that this was not God’s deed, instead of assuming it was but that there were constraints. If that were his position, he should merely have clarified that the suffering of the babies (and also of the innocent adults) certainly was not God’s doing—only the harm to terrorists who hid among them (if there were such). He would not have needed to apologize or retract anything—only to clarify this point.
Therefore my critique of him stands. First, I assume he would not accept my premise that there are constraints on God’s actions—just as most believers and religious thinkers do not accept it (he did not write this, and his apology shows that he does not accept it). But even if he did accept it, there would be no logic in inferring the conclusions he inferred from the events. This is, of course, beyond the logical flaws in his interpretation that I described in the first column about his remarks.
Interim Summary
What we have seen so far is that reality—both natural and human—does not contradict God’s goodness and morality. One can of course argue that He is indeed not moral and not good, or that He does not exist at all. My discussion assumes that He exists and that He is good. My aim was to show that even under these assumptions we do not reach a contradiction.
A human doctor who wishes to heal another person sometimes has to cause him pain, for he has no way to heal without pain. We would not say such a doctor is evil, for he has no other way to heal the patient without causing pain. My claim here is that so too regarding God. Even if He wishes to benefit all of us, sometimes He has no possibility of doing so without causing us—or some of us—pain. The novelty is that even God acts under constraints, and that does not contradict His omnipotence.
All this is true if, and only if, the constraints in question are logical. A human doctor is constrained also by the laws of nature; he cannot heal without pain. God is not constrained by that, for the laws of nature do not bind Him. He created them, and therefore He can also freeze them (the mouth that forbade is the mouth that permitted). But logical constraints bind even God Himself. To give us free choice while retaining for Himself the possibility of dictating the outcome (i.e., preventing suffering) is a logical contradiction and therefore not within God’s power. To run the world by rigid natural laws and at the same time intervene as needed to prevent suffering is also a logical contradiction and therefore not within His power. Under these constraints, God should be judged exactly like the human doctor who acts under constraints and cannot always avoid causing suffering to his patients. This does not necessarily indicate that he is not moral—and so too regarding God.
God’s Involvement in the World
I have often written that, in my view, God is not involved in the world. I have also written that this conclusion is not meant to resolve the problem of evil but is based on strong philosophical and scientific arguments independent of it. But of course, if one adopts such a view, it obviates the discussion from the outset, for under such a policy He neither causes suffering nor is He expected to prevent it. He does not act here at all. He has left the world to natural law and human choices, and what transpires here is the result of those two. At least in recent generations, God adopts a policy of general non-intervention.
But to argue all I have written thus far, one need not reach that view. It suffices for me to claim that even if He is involved in the world there are limits to His involvement to explain that this is precisely the case in situations where there is suffering of innocents. True, if I assume that the avoidance of intervention is in order to let the world operate according to rigid laws, then the full conclusion suggests itself—that He is not involved at all. But I explained that this conclusion is not strictly necessary to adopt the picture I have described here (this is essentially the second view I cited above: partial divine involvement in the world—see there the difficulties it poses).
In the comments to the previous columns several objections and difficulties were raised regarding the picture I proposed and the problems at its foundation. I now wish to address them briefly.
Yaakov: Reincarnations
Yaakov insisted on burdening us with tedious comments about reincarnations and how they solve all the difficulties I raised (see, for example, here and much more nearby). Except that, as he claims, an “infidel” like me does not believe in reincarnations.
So I have a novelty for him. First, this “infidel” before you certainly takes into account the possibility of reincarnations. I am not inclined to think any of us knows whether there are or are not reincarnations, and certainly not to identify who is the reincarnation of whom; but in principle the possibility of reincarnations is not implausible to me. If I accept that in us there is a soul beyond the material (I am a dualist), then when the body dies one can certainly accept the claim that the soul remains in some form—either it remains Above or it returns to the world in another incarnation. This is, of course, not clear to me, but I do not reject the possibility. Precisely because of this it is important to understand that this possibility does not offer a solution to the problem of suffering—whether human or natural. If it did, that would itself be a good argument for the existence of reincarnations.
Why does it not solve the difficulty? Because even if the person who died returns here in another incarnation, why did he have to suffer in the present incarnation without any fault of his own? When a baby dies in agony, the fact that he will return here as a monkey or another person does not change at all the fact that he suffered undeservedly. It perhaps solves the question of unjust death—because he “returns to life”—but not the question of suffering. One can perhaps compensate him for the undeserved suffering in the next incarnation, but I do not see a justification for undeserved suffering with compensation. One can also claim that the suffering is a response to his sins in a previous incarnation, but that is a very strange claim. Why should he not suffer in the same incarnation in which he sinned? Why cause suffering to another person—even if he has the same soul? That person does not even remember what he did in a previous incarnation and will certainly derive no moral lesson from it.
Beyond all that, such a claim certainly does not salvage Rabbi Eliyahu’s explanations. He ties the suffering to the Turks’ hostility toward us—not to transgressions those people perpetrated in previous incarnations. If we resort to reincarnation rationales, then we have no business seeking justifications in terms of events and actions occurring in our world. That renders his explanations even more speculative than they were without the reincarnation thesis.
Dror: What About the Past?
Now to the questions of “Bobby” Dror Fisher, and the cobbler’s mate he kindly bestowed upon me (for his questions see here, here, here, and here). There are various questions there that were already answered in the column, so I will not repeat them here—for example, the difference between the claim that God does not intervene and the claim that He Himself causes it. Dror argues that in both situations the conduct is immoral (a father who sees his son suffering will certainly intervene to save him). Above I explained at length the difference between a question and a contradiction, and between non-intervention and direct causation. I will therefore focus here on his questions about the past.
He rightly says that I too agree that God was involved in the world in the past. From here he wonders why innocents suffered then. What is the explanation for the natural and human evil that prevailed then? I preface with two remarks I made here: (a) My explanation for evil does not necessarily depend on my view of providence. (b) That view is based on very strong arguments on its merits; it is not an ad hoc explanation for the problem of evil. True, once one adopts it, it bolsters the explanations presented here. Now to his questions.
My thesis does not posit a sharp transition from full involvement (no nature at all) to no involvement whatsoever (the world runs on its own). It is a gradual transition, and in all periods there were laws of nature. Dror asked why there must be disengagement if the world progresses without it. A very weak question. It progresses because of the disengagement, and the disengagement happens because of the progress. It is like asking why a father disengages from his son as he advances—after all, he advances even without it. If there were involvement at a high dosage, there would be no natural law at all. In such a case scientific progress would not be possible, nor moral progress (if everything depends on us and God will not prevent evil, that is motivation to act accordingly and deal with evil ourselves. Not for nothing are the international institutions that address evil and try to reduce it established in a period of secularization). Therefore there is logic in gradual disengagement.
Thus, in all periods divine involvement was sporadic; the difference lies only in dosage. Dror asked how I would explain the suffering of babies in earthquakes that occurred in the past. But in the column above I wrote that even according to the second approach (partial divine involvement) one can answer the problem of evil. Partial involvement is precisely what existed in the past. According to my proposal, the suffering of innocent people then was also the result of natural laws and a policy of non-intervention. True, in earlier periods the divine involvement was at a higher dosage, but there too there were natural laws.
Moreover, then we also had prophets who could point to that involvement and explain it. When a prophet in the past told me that God did X because of Y, he said this from knowledge, not speculation. But one who offers such explanations today (like Rabbi Eliyahu), beyond the fact that in my opinion there is no involvement, also adopts a very speculative path. He is not a prophet and has no way to know God’s calculations. So why offer explanations at all?! If a prophet comes and tells me that such-and-such an event in the past was punishment for sin—and if in that event there was suffering of innocents—then I will say that apparently it was not God’s act but a constraint compelled it and He decided not to intervene (for the reasons I have given above). The dosage of involvement is a function of the period, but that does not mean that in the past He intervened always. As noted, there were natural laws then as well.
Dror’s request for well-defined “borderlines” of God’s involvement is, of course, ridiculous. To answer the difficulty of the problem of evil it suffices for me to point out that there can be considerations that justify non-intervention. I need not draw a line or assume there is any line at all. If an asteroid were to destroy the earth, perhaps God would intervene and perhaps not. How does that touch my thesis? This is a very basic logical misunderstanding of what is required to raise a contradiction and what is required to resolve it. “One must challenge only with great difficulty” is nonsense; but “one may resolve even with difficulty” is entirely legitimate. One who raises the difficulty must claim that there is no alternative explanation; but one who resolves may point to an alternative explanation even without supplying all the details—especially when there is no reason he should know them (who knows God’s considerations?!). As noted, it suffices for me to show that this is a question, not a contradiction.
One must understand that on the logical level there cannot be direct harm by God Himself to innocents without justification, for that contradicts the assumption of His morality. Therefore I do not understand what the examples Dror brought are meant to prove. I do indeed accept his claim that in the past there were events in which innocents were harmed. But what does that prove? What in my words must now be revoked? That the conclusion is that God is not moral? Or that harming innocents is good? The second option is an oxymoron. The first throws out the baby with the bathwater. So what remains is that there are justifications not on the moral plane for such harms (constraints to which God is subject). But I have already rejected this notion conceptually and philosophically—and in any case I have shown that Rabbi Eliyahu’s thesis cannot rest on this view. So at most we remain with “needs further inquiry” regarding those descriptions—and in my view, because this is a contradiction and not a question, one must find an answer to them. One cannot maintain that God is moral and continue to claim He acts thus. That necessarily brings us to the conclusion that there are constraints to which God is subject, and hence to His policy of non-intervention. For example, He decided to destroy the Temple and Jerusalem, but as a consequence there would be children suffering starvation. That is forced upon Him; otherwise He is again rendered immoral. But as I explained, once one accepts that there are constraints even upon God, we again arrive at my thesis. There is no point stopping halfway and seeking explanations and justifications for events that may very well be the result of constraints—certainly not when the explanations limp and we have no prophet who can assert authoritatively that this is the information he possesses.
At the end of the day, Dror does not propose another solution to the problem of evil. Even if I accepted everything he writes (and I certainly do not), he would have to choose between these conclusions: either God is evil, or conduct that inflicts suffering on innocents is good. Good luck to him.
[1] It is important to understand that this pertains to logical contradictions. In a priori contradictions (that is, philosophical contradictions that are not logical; see on this here), the situation is different.
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Does reincarnation contradict resurrection?
If a soul has reincarnated from body to body over the generations, who will return in the resurrection?
There is no contradiction necessarily. After a wave transforms into its original body (which has already decayed). But all these are baseless discussions. In the air.
Thank you and be honest!
It is possible to interpret, as the Rambam (Mendelssohn) said, that this was not a divine punishment and a real miracle, but that Pharaoh himself hardened his heart, but that all the actions were attributed to God in some way, because He is the first cause; and I add that the actions attributed in the Holy Books to God are the strange actions whose cause is incomprehensible to us, and so here the hardening of Pharaoh's neck after seeing several signs and wonders is a strange and puzzling thing, therefore it was attributed to God; and so on, "And the Lord has not given you a heart to know and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this day" (Deuteronomy 29:3) and "For the Lord said to him, Curse David" (Shem 2:17).
Shadl
Strange things
You wrote: “If we accept that God also has constraints, we come back to my thesis. There is no point in stopping halfway and looking for explanations and justifications for events that could certainly be the result of constraints”.
The reason is that your thesis requires us to assume a fundamental change in God's relationship to the world, much more fundamental than what our view of reality requires. There is no doubt that not every detail in events comes directly from God, and there is also no doubt that without a prophet it is difficult to impossible to know what is what, and it is dangerous to try. Up to this point I am completely with you. But none of this entails the other extreme. It is certainly possible, as Rabbi Shmuel Ariel said, that the world operates as it should and God intervenes when he sees fit. Why are innocent people also killed? Constraints, or reasons unrelated to morality (as you rightly explained regarding the priest's wife who was raped).
And if something like this happened to the Jews, our duty is to assume normatively (!) that we were not saved because we were not worthy, and to repent. And that's all, and of course not to beat the chest of others.
I don't understand what exactly you're claiming. You also agree that there's no point in looking for explanations for what's happening, especially if it's illogical/moral, since some events are the result of constraints. And if that's the case, then there's no point in looking for explanations for anything. The question of whether reaching my approach regarding zero involvement really doesn't arise from here, and I wrote it. It arises from common sense considerations and not as a solution to the problem of evil.
The truth is, there is nothing new under the sun, everything I have seen, in books, and in posts, is presented in the book of Job with my own thoughts, and I only made it a quarter of the book, the bottom line there, the philosophical discussions there between Job and his friends, were not decided, until God Himself, debates philosophically with Job, and Job admits that he was wrong, and indeed God did not destroy the earth, but also according to your opinion, it seems to me that you skipped a few steps, (I once put Yahvi on philosophy, but I was disappointed, because there is no way to really come up with something, there is no end to what the mind constantly produces, I read the entire trilogy, and more of your books, and your articles and I was not silenced at all, and therefore I have returned to being a receiver, you will call it the hiding of reason, but I will call it an informed decision made by the decision of reason, a safe and quiet way) First explain to me the vague concept “Zimtzum” that all schools of thought have failed, from saying something understandable about it, then if it is the place of a world, and the world is not its place, and fills every world, how is it at all appropriate to create something outside of it, that it would supposedly stand on its own, without its supervision? If you manage to crack this for me, we will move on, (By the way, a good piece of advice for you before you point out these contradictions, first examine whether these are intellectual contradictions? Or sensory contradictions, I will give an example, and let the wise and wiser still, as you know, all the objects that appear to us, are after all fiction, because all the atoms rotate at such a speed, that everything appears to us as solid matter, so the contradiction here is between what we experience and what the mind says, and the mind is right and not the feeling)
There is a mixture of claims here, and I will try to break it down a bit.
1. Regarding philosophy, I wrote several columns about it, and I explained there that the disputes in philosophy are mostly imaginary. Therefore, it is certainly possible to reach philosophical conclusions.
2. I explained the reduction well there, and if you have any difficulty, you are welcome to bring it up here.
3. Both there and here (and in other places) I distinguished carefully between these two types of contradiction. So I already received your good advice long before you wrote it. It is difficult for me to understand how you missed it if you actually read what I said. By the way, the contradiction that you described here (regarding solid objects) is not a contradiction but simply a difference in resolutions.
From this arena I prove to you that there is no end to philosophical thinking, at some point we always reach a dead end, I gave you a chance to explain to my ears how the one who is the cause of everything and the place of the world, who creates and invents everything, can do something outside of it, the fact that you sent me to your book does not solve my problem, because there you only pretend to decide, what is the correct method, but you have not been able to explain philosophically how this is possible, you constantly wave that God is subject to this and that, how is He not subject to His own limitation? This is also a kind of intellectual contradiction, I do not demand mountains and hills from you, I give you a simple challenge, try all the bombastic arguments, and your creativity to start with this A, B, and you will see how difficult it is to reach something, when you get involved philosophically, you always end up with a dead end, so I abandoned this winding path
It seems you've also neglected the listening method. Good luck to you.
Hector, even in the Malbim's interpretation of Job there is nothing new and all the significant ideas there are taken from the thinkers before him. The Malbim merely retrospectively inserted the opinions and arranged the structure (with typical art and even more typical cunning).
It once occurred to me that the only idea that seemed new in the Malbim's words is that there is a well-known claim (Eliph; chapter 22) that God does not give reward and punishment in this world so as not to weaken choice and allow work for its own sake. And Job rejects this (chapter 24) because there are wicked people in remote places and if God were to destroy them, no one would know and it would not harm choice, and so why doesn't God destroy them?! (Unless of course there is no providence, etc.). Not that I know much, but from the references of the Melvim and from what I searched, I remember that I did not find a precedent for this claim and perhaps it is an innovation of the Melvim. And this claim of course seems puzzling because how can we know that God truly does not destroy these wicked people in remote places. If they do not emerge and without providence we would expect them to emerge, then this would be a sign and evidence of providence. Eliphaz claims that Dinah should hide and conceal herself in a secret place.
And there is also some kind of side argument against free choice (end of chapter 12), because we see that sometimes entire nations act in a foolish way and this is impossible if everyone has a choice, then surely someone among them would think of the right path and show it to everyone, but of course there is no free choice but a foreign force that forces them. And besides this being a shaky claim in itself, it was also clearly explained in column 539 that collective determinism does not contradict free choice in individuals.
What is the birth of a woman among us?
A complete disaster will happen.
It is accepted by many that caricature and satire are the weapons of the weak (ideologically). He who is confident in his arguments does not need to put his opponent's arguments in front of a crooked mirror in order to mock them. (But one can teach a right that Adar, etc., etc. is entering).
Well, Mr. made two mistakes: (a) My talkback was not “angry”. (If Mr. saw in the Holy Spirit that my cheeks were red, he misinterpreted them. It is because of the torments of rheumatism). Even now I am not “angry” (I am only tormented by the same rheumatism that ”thanks to it” I have time to read your columns and respond to them…). (b) The cartoonish way in which you present my position as if I were claiming that God acts capriciously but that He is “permitted because He is the owner of the house.” And it is not.
I did indeed claim that God is the owner of the house and therefore “permitted” but not in the capricious sense but in the essential sense. It is impossible to claim that the owner of the house is “immoral” when he decides to destroy it, as is said in a famous midrash that God creates worlds and destroys them. Obviously, in those worlds too there were innocent creatures and, in general, all living creatures eventually die – and why? Why did God block the path to the tree of life? And is it moral to kill a living creature after you brought it into the world? Furthermore, couldn't God have created a perfect world in which there was no evil at all (at least not "natural evil", according to your conceptualization)? You are "betting" that this is not possible even for God. And on the basis of a "bet" would you silence a question about God's leadership? (And even if it were a "question" and not a "problem").
And let's assume, as you say, that God cannot create a perfect world. But is this the "best of all possible worlds" (Leibniz)? Voltaire already explained in Toto (in Candide, composed by Leonard Bernstein, the late) how ridiculous this idea is. Couldn't God, at the very least, have given us the same unknown gene that elephants have (according to the hypothesis, it has not yet been discovered) that prevents them from getting cancer, even though the number of cells in an elephant's body is ten times greater than the number of cells in a human body and the statistical probability that one of them will go "crazy" and develop into a malignant tumor is higher (a priori) than in a human? Couldn't he have given us the stomach of crows that never spoils (even if they eat rotten carrion)? Couldn't he have given us the blood of mongooses that is immune to snake venom? And so on?
You claim that without the possibility of human evil, free choice is not possible, and God, for reasons reserved with Him (here you also admit that “God’s ways are mysterious”), thought that free choice was more important than preventing suffering. This is a very weak argument, because the question of evil in the world does not necessarily focus on its very existence (which could perhaps be explained by its necessity for free choice) but on its almost unchallenged rule throughout human history. Why does free choice require “the human heart’s inclination to be evil from its youth”? What would be lacking in free choice if the natural inclination of most humans was biased toward good rather than evil and most human history was good rather than evil?
So I’m really not sure that the earthquake in Turkey was the work of God. It is certainly possible that it is the product of natural processes in the bowels of the earth and that God, for his reasons, “in short” did not intervene and prevent it. (The truth is that neither of us really know! It’s just that you pretend to “know the higher wisdom” without any cover-up). But your “explanation” that God changed his policy at some point and is no longer intervening “so that we can grow up” is of no use. Standing by while thousands or millions are slaughtered and suffering while he could, with his mouth, prevent these tragedies without effort and without a morally equivalent cost to actually doing them with his own hands. In that case, he could have prevented the earthquake without us knowing about it, (and thus would not have prevented scientists from discovering laws in nature, etc.). If it is immoral to “slaughter” children to punish the Turks, it is equally immoral to stand by and not prevent the disaster “so that we grow up.” (And perhaps it is even worse.)
My argument is that we cannot say anything about the relationship between God and morality. First, we do not really know whether God is subject to morality (which is the law of logic, see below), and if so – to which morality? And even whether he is subject to the “morality of the Torah” or the “morality of the prophets” (what is this?) Does this mean that he is obligated to what we are obligated to? Aren’t we obligated to “Thou shalt not murder”? While He "kills and revives, He brings down Saul and raises him up." You claim that this argument turns the morality of God into "definitive". Let's say. So what? For the sinner, that's perfectly fine. The "good" in the entire Bible is defined as "righteous in the eyes of God." And besides, all your babbling is based on the assumption (semi-hidden) that if we don't understand the morality of God, then it doesn't exist or it's definitive. The possibility that we don't understand is simply not possible, according to you, and so is the possibility that even if it is subject to morality, it's not necessarily our morality. That is, if God is subject (or has subjected Himself) to morality, it is necessarily the same morality to which we are subject (assuming that we are at all subject to an independent morality that does not derive from the Torah, a claim that I also doubt, and I am not a believer in) or at least to the morality that we understand. Every person who has received enough will have a lot of energy in his heart.
Indeed, the great men of the world have asked about God’s leadership. But it is important to listen not only to the questions (which were questions, not conclusions!) but also to the answer that came from God Himself at least twice. The first, in response to Moses’ question, “Show me your glory,” which the Rambam and others interpreted as a request for an explanation of God’s leadership. In the world – the Holy One answers, “And you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen,” which the above commentators interpreted as man’s inability to understand the guidance of the Lord over His creation, and the words are ancient. Second, in response to Job’s pointed questions, the Holy One answers, “Gird up your loins like a man, that I may question you and tell me: Where were you at the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know understanding!” (Job 38). Two points emerge from the entire speech of the Holy One: (a) You cannot understand. (b) I owe you no explanation. And this is the entire Torah (Job 38:1).
If you wish, answer (a) is a different formulation of “the hidden ways of God” And what I added in the ”angry” talkbacks is point (b). Here I add that this is not apologetics, but a piercing truth.
In the margins, you again claim that it is impossible to say something about God and its opposite, since in your opinion God is also subject to logic. As mentioned, I am not sure about this at all, but as I mentioned in one of the aforementioned ”angry” talkbacks, I am also not sure about the opposite and I have no solid opinion on this matter. The reason for this is that I am sure of only one thing, that we have no ability to say anything true about the essence and essence of God, and it is better not to express my opinion here on the very pretense of doing so. (I did not wake up this morning in a combative mood). I once read that you explained that the contradictions raised by quantum mechanics are erased on large scales. Well, so be it. But the problem is their very existence, on any scale. If a particle can be in a superposition and if Schrödinger's cat can be alive and dead at the same time, the fact that it can only do so on a microscopic scale neither increases nor decreases. And if the particle and the cat can tolerate a logical contradiction on a microscopic scale, perhaps God can tolerate it on an infinite scale as well? I have no answer and in my opinion there can be no answer at all, since the human mind is not equipped with the ability to deal with these questions. Whoever claims otherwise has the evidence. I was not convinced from your books that you have this ability (probably not because you are not smart but because you are, what can you do, human). And the same goes for morality and let the wise man be wiser, etc.
According to you, he can do dina without dina (like destroying his house because it is his). Well, then I ask again what the meaning of the statement about his goodness is? In what sense does he say about himself that his mercy is for all his actions and that he only does justified things? You say that you did not mean arbitrary behavior, and then immediately go back and say that his behavior is arbitrary. He destroys the house just because he wants to, and that is his right. Even if you think one thing can be said about the Holy One and the opposite, is the same true of you?
I did indeed claim that he cannot create a world without evil. I wrote this, and therefore I do not understand your question. You can argue with that of course, but I did not understand what was new in your question here.
The rule of evil in history is only your delusion. I disbelieve in this. The human heart's instinct usually tends toward good, but it has an evil instinct that sometimes it cannot resist. Especially when it comes to human evil that is the product of choice and therefore forced upon God regardless of the laws of nature. The alternative is to create humanity without choice, but then there probably really was no point in creating it (as Rabbi Torunus Rufus said)..
You are again mistaken and misleading about the intention of my words in your demagogic way. I do not know a higher wisdom and do not offer any explanation. I offer a possibility that neutralizes the problem. Either it is true or not, but the burden of proof is on the one who makes the difficulty and not on the one who makes excuses. I have explained this more than once, but you ignore it in this way.
The same applies to the difference between doing evil and not preventing it. I am sure that you yourself do not believe in this, and my explanation explained the difference well. But you ignore it in this way.
God tells us that He is good, and of necessity the intention is for good in the sense that we know. Delusions about goodness in another sense empty these statements of their content.
Inability to understand the leadership of God is exactly my claim. He has a policy whose goals are hidden from us. But it is impossible to turn evil into good. You are again ignoring what I wrote and offering them reversed interpretations.
The claims about God’s subjection to logic (which are often also found in the Rishonim) are not claims about Him but about us. I have explained this more than once and here. But I am truly sick of repeating the same things over and over again as if this were a discussion and not a discourse of the deaf.
Complete healing, healing of the mind and body.
Destroying one's own house is not “Dina bla dina”. It is “Dina be dina” (because it is his!). One might wonder why and for what purpose – but this is not a question of justice and morality, and on this matter, as I think, you also admit that you have no answer.
What I asked is: Even if we accept your assumption that a world without evil is not possible, is (as Leibniz said) this world “the best of all possible worlds”? To refute Leibniz's claim, it is enough to point out one possible improvement, and I have suggested several (and I estimate there are many more). That is, not all evil in the world is necessary and stems from the principles you tried to formulate in your column, and as long as there is even a tiny bit of evil that God could have prevented from the world without harming God, your entire column was of no use and we are back to the "hidden ways of God."
In my opinion, evil does indeed dominate human history without question, but Talkback is not the place to review all of human history to prove this. Nevertheless, the Book of Genesis and in fact the entire Bible is a chronicle of glorious divine failures in the fight against evil. (In contrast to the books of other religions that only glorify and praise their gods and their institutions and the Almighty). Already in the first paragraph it is told how the attempt failed and God was forced to destroy his world. Then come the stories of the generation of the flood, Sodom, God’s despair of humanity and choosing Abraham, the stories of the Israelites in the wilderness, the stories of the Kingdom of Israel, the division of the kingdom, etc. until the destruction, and of course – the oath that God swore not to bring another flood to the world. Why is there a need for the oath and the rainbow covenant if good rules the world and evil is temporary and fleeting? In general, anyone who knows the economic history of the world even superficially knows that only in the last two hundred years has humanity known real economic growth. Until then, the vast majority of humanity lived in degenerate poverty, exploitation, oppression, slavery and incurable diseases. Terrible and horrendous suffering without purpose, seemingly. Political history is no better.
As for the burden of proof – it is clear that it is always on the claimant. It is utterly absurd, to say the least, to base the phenomenon of evil in the world on a “possible” explanation and to dwell on it unnecessarily (even if the explanation did explain something). As for not preventing a disaster – I deliberately focused on their hidden prevention (like preventing the earthquake in Turkey) which does not involve any cost or effort on the part of God Almighty and in any case would not harm the image of “rigid laws” and does not prevent any scientist from investigating the laws of nature, etc.
The claim that if God Almighty says that He is good then it is necessarily good in the sense known to us – wonders of wonders, wonderful and marvelous. I rest my case… (But then why does he need to tell us? We could have discovered this by observing his ways alone. And why, when asked about it, did he reply that we cannot understand and that he does not need an explanation?).
As for logic, etc. – I did not claim that God is subject to it, nor did I claim that he is not. I fully admitted that I do not know, and I only added that in my opinion no one can know that this is beyond human comprehension because, in my poor and feeble understanding, discussing this question involves discussing the essence and essence of God. I understand that the entire subject is not suitable for a talkback, but the fact that you are “deadly bored” can be interpreted in several ways. One, that your readership (and me in particular) are not smart enough to understand the depth of your words (at least I take this possibility very seriously!). The second, that the way you phrase your words needs improvement for the readers’ understanding. The third, that you are not convincing… (and maybe there are more).
And thank you for the wishes of health (body and mind), I still need them…
This is just insistence. If there is a reason for killing babies, there is no need to be the owner of the house. If there is no reason, then this ’justification’ does not make the act moral.
Your proposal to improve the world is baseless. I explained that you need to propose an alternative system of laws and not local improvement. Local improvement is simply the prevention of evil. After all, this is our discussion. How many times can we repeat this nonsense?!
Regarding the dominance of evil, this is a difficult matter to decide. But to each his own. Especially since you raise this question from the power.
I did not base the evil in the world on a possibility, but rather I based the difficulty on God on the possibility that he is not evil. The burden of proof is of course on the one who makes it difficult. Again, I do not understand why these simple things need to be repeated over and over again. This is just insistence.
In your opinion, when God tells us that He is good, it is said in a completely different sense of the concept of ‘good’, and of course it is understood that we do not know. Why make meaningless statements to the world?! By the way, it is also possible that when He wrote in the Torah that He gave the Torah at Mount Sinai, He actually meant that He danced the tango in occupied Paris with Himmler, and when He wrote that one should keep the Sabbath, He actually meant standing on one leg on Wednesday and so on. Truly lofty and magnificent peaks of tendentious and ridiculous insistence.
I explained why you are wrong about the logic (= this is not a discussion about him but about us). But someone who is not committed to logic probably has no point in corrupting my words about him.
And perhaps all this is because my heart is not exhausted, Asia. So get well soon again.
I'm out of my mind, Asya, and I'll reply telegraphically.
Being the owner of the house "allows" him to kill babies even in circumstances that people like us are forbidden to do. That doesn't mean I understand why he does it, but he's not a "murderer" and "slaughterer" as you called him in the previous column. What's so hard to understand?
So you said it was nonsense, Shevin. But you didn't explain why giving blood immune to snake venom or a cancer-suppressing gene to humanity is "only" a local improvement and as such "only" the prevention of evil and therefore has no point, nor did you explain whether (and if so how) this is "the best of all possible worlds." As long as you haven't done so, all your chatter is worthless. (Whether I'm “insisting” or just a snoozer. Irrelevant).
The entire Bible chronicles evil that God supposedly failed time and time again in his war against, to the point that the prophets promise that good will only triumph in the end times. It's hard to ignore this and claim intellectual integrity.
That's what I said. You settled the question/issue (choose your own) on a “possibility” that ”allows” evil to exist and God to be good according to your understanding. If this isn't “Purim will happen” then I'm probably a yikes and haven't tasted paprika in my life…
Twisting my words will not help, and as mentioned, satire and mockery of a distorted image (that you have placed before me) indicate ideological weakness. Indeed, God tells us that He is good. But when the prophets ask Him to explain His (good) leadership to them, they respond that He does not need an explanation and that no one is capable of understanding it anyway. If it is “good in a way that we can understand,” then it is basically a matter of indifference, and the answer is at the very least puzzling.
The sentence “not about Him, but about us” is really not an explanation. I did not ask for an explanation either (I explicitly stated that I do not expect one in the context of a talkback). Admittedly, I can guess what you meant by this “explanation,” but if my guess is correct, then it explains nothing, and again – I did not intend to get into it here beyond a footnote.
Thanks again for the best wishes.
Killing without reason is murder in the translation into spoken language. Killing for an ulterior motive is indeed possible, but this raises the question of why not achieve the same purpose without killing (after all, He is omnipotent)? And if you accept that He is subject to constraints from the divine to the divine.
I explained it well. I am talking about the fundamental laws of nature. They determined why our blood composition is the way it is. It is a consequence and not a law of nature. Therefore, if you want to give us different blood, you must change the laws of nature. Changing the composition of blood in the existing laws is again interference in the laws, and this is what you wanted to avoid.
The best in all worlds is defined by the good between the systems of laws and not by local changes at the expense of the laws.
The Bible does not say anything about the failures of the Almighty. See my answers to Dror.
The fact that the Almighty does not explain does not mean that the good is interpreted differently by Him. It is just that we cannot understand why it is good. The disappearance is not a matter of value but of fact. Otherwise, the statements about it being good are emptied of their content, which of course you did not answer.
Do you see a difference between Maimonides' position in Mora Nevukhim 3:12 and the position you present here?
https://press.tau.ac.il/perplexed/chapters/chap_3_13.htm
For some reason an inappropriate image appeared next to my response, I don't know why or how to delete it
It's hard for me to go into all the details there right now. If there's a concrete question, I'd be happy to discuss it. Regarding the picture, I'll ask Oren to take care of it.
Due to the lack of time, I will answer the answers, with fragmented responses of my own.
Regarding my argument of “Why include minor suffering that does not require intervention together with suffering that a person has nothing to do”
This is what Michi wrote:
“Here too, we can talk about different degrees of suffering and build a model of intervention only in the severe degrees of natural suffering. But I will answer again, as above, that there is no line that can be drawn on the scale of suffering, nor is there justification for distinguishing between different levels of suffering (or the number of people suffering). On a principled level, all suffering is unjustified and requires intervention, and therefore involvement in preventing suffering means abolishing the rigid laws of nature”
I will answer this with several answers:
A. As I wrote in the previous column, it is certainly possible to learn from our experience, and draw a line of “average father” (for any given age of child).
True, it won't be an exact science, but as I demonstrated in the previous column - the average father doesn't help his child with the mortgage payments, but lets him endure overtime at work and the mental burden and stress that comes with it (there is suffering here, no doubt).
“The average father”, on the other hand, will do everything he can to rescue his son who was buried under the rubble of the earthquake.
This is not just a theory. It is a lesson from our experience.
From this it is also easy to deduce a reasonable picture of the intervention of the Almighty (who is good), when innocent victims are injured.
Miki's answer (“There is no line that can be crossed on the scale of suffering”) represents “mental laziness” – fundamentalism – crazy adherence to his method. Even when a reasonable answer to a reasonable divine intervention is presented, he excuses himself from discussing it, in one sentence.
B. The continuation of the answer too – “There is no justification for distinguishing between different levels of suffering” These are also things that do not fit into what we experience. The average person does ignore the suffering of others (not necessarily his son), up to a certain point.
For the sake of example – We all feel heartbroken hearing about people whose mortgage payments are increasing, but almost none of us take out a loan to help them. On the other hand, any reasonable person would help an old man who collapsed in front of him on the road.
And here, this is another simple piece of evidence, from our experience as humans, that there is a reality in which we behave in a moral and logical manner, and on the other hand, we do justify distinguishing between different levels of suffering. We are all like that.
C. Miki is again making it easy for himself here by writing that it is likely that God should have abolished all the laws of nature. That is not what I asked for.
What is required is that when there is unreasonable suffering (and I have shown that such suffering can indeed be defined) then it would be expected that God would intervene, whether he maintains a principled policy of intervention of one kind or another or whether he does not intervene (in difficult situations, he will make an exception).
The laws of nature continue to be rigid, and at the same time, the concept of cot death or babies dying in an earthquake does not exist at all because they are miraculously prevented by God (unless there is a prophecy that tells us that this baby died because he is the reincarnation of evil, but I do not want to go into that).
After all, Miki himself would agree that such a thing is possible morally (of course), and also technically, since God is omnipotent.
And in the past, when he was actively involved, he did do things like that - there were strict laws of nature and God would often perform miracles, according to Michi's theory.
Additional responses to the other arguments, below
Dror
I don't see anything new here. I answered that in my own words.
Your answer about “inability to draw a line of suffering” is like answering “because that's how it is”.
I really don't see anything more in your answer than that.
Logic and rationality are on my side.
We'll try to show you and everyone else a little more from experience, since it is possible to indicate a line of suffering.
What do people complain about and ask “Where is God? ” when there is suffering?
Is it when they lose money on the stock market? (I don't think so).
Is it when their child gets sick with a fever? (I don't think so).
Is it when tens of thousands of innocent people are buried in an earthquake? (I think so).
Is it when a million and a half children are sent to crematoriums and gas chambers? (I think so).
But I'm almost giving up on convincing you. Apparently, intuition, logic, rationality, and learning from experience are not your lot, even when it is quite clear that justice is not on your side.
If I convince any of the readers, at least on this subject, then I have done my part.
Dror
As stated, everything is answered.
Unlike the relationship between parents and children, God can have reasons why He should not intervene and leave people free choice. Beyond that, I argue that there is no difference between small and large suffering on a logical level. If He needs to intervene to prevent suffering, this is true in relation to all small suffering as well as in relation to large suffering. Why should people suffer? And if you accept that there is justification for small suffering, how do you know that there is no justification for large suffering? This is fundamentally different from directly causing unjustified suffering. Therefore, I do not see a fundamental difference in the levels of suffering. And if you say that He is forced to do this because of His policy, then I do not see why it is impossible to say that He is forced to not intervene at all.
Don't despair. All it takes to convince me is to present good arguments, especially ones that have not yet been answered.
“I claim that there is no difference between small and large suffering on a logical level”
That is already taking the discussion on the question of evil to the highest place there is – Why didn't God create a world where we just lick honey and eat chocolate all day long. But that is irrelevant.
The discussion here is about a much narrower place – the assumption that there is suffering that is permitted by God, and the question of what its limit is (in general) and whether it comes for nothing or not.
Suffering is a matter of perception (this is also the dictionary definition), and therefore the sentence “suffering on a logical level” is irrelevant to my matter.
Accepting that there is justification for small suffering, how do you know that there is no justification for great suffering?
I am not claiming that there is no justification for great suffering. If I go back to reincarnations – For my part, the soul of Hitler, may his name be erased, will be reincarnated in countless German babies who will undergo terrible suffering and die in their cribs.
My argument is that great suffering towards innocent people is unjustified. And what I am arguing is that there is an option in Judaism in which no suffering is free. Whoever wants it is welcome to accept it.
And if you say that he is forced into this because of his policy, then I do not see why it is impossible to say that he is forced into total non-intervention.
All natural suffering, whether it is great or small suffering, is from God. This is the possible approach that is preferable to yours (whether this approach is correct or not).
It is certainly preferable to the compulsion of total non-intervention, because in the method that I favor as more moral, no one is harmed innocently by natural evil. In your method, on the other hand, innocent people are constantly being harmed because of a logical constraint.
Dror
Well, there's really no point in continuing here. Everything has been explained.
In response to the talkback to the previous column, you answered me that the question is why we should be normatively sad about the death of a baby. I don't understand even according to your current method (or I don't understand what I missed) – Why is it sad? After all, even according to the explanation that this is a system of natural laws with the help of which God will achieve the goals he wishes to achieve while causing minimal suffering, why should we be sorry for the least evil? It is the best possible.
I don't remember what it was about.
Mikhi, it seems to me that at the center of your theodicy is the struggle against natural evil, but I don't understand how your argument can take off. What's the problem with assuming the existence of an a priori and rigid system of laws that operates in a completely different way from the system of natural laws and therefore affects it (sometimes)? I don't see this possibility as logically impossible. I have 2 examples of such systems: God's supernatural intervention in the world described in the Bible (which you yourself believe in) and the free will of man. Finally, I might even have a third example - the findings of modern physics, especially in the quantum world (probabilistic causality). Although there we know that quantum law does not spill over into the macro world, the point is that the behavior of the quantum world at least proves the existence of a system that operates a priori on the basis of a completely different law. What is important is that I don't think this assumption has any logical impossible.
In light of this, even the little one can offer God suggestions for efficiency. For example, to create time in such a way that in certain circumstances, let's say a mass disaster, time would stop and give people time to escape. If God – that is, the God you describe – were to actually adopt my suggestions, he could create the world in such a way that every time a major disaster is imminent, the metaphysical (rigid!) system behind the scenes would come into play. I don't see a logical difficulty here.
If I'm right, then your suggestion is not a “question” but a “difficulty”.
I think you've asked this before. I don't understand your argument. Supernatural intervention is not a rigid set of rules. Neither is quantum. Bottom line, whoever makes claims against God has the burden of proof. Until you show that such a system exists, there is no problem.
There may be a feeling that the debate here between everyone has exhausted itself a bit, but I flatter myself that my criticism of your words comes from a slightly different direction and therefore perhaps there is some interest in it.
1. I did ask you in the past and the answers then, as now, did not put my mind at ease.
2. I accept that God as we speak of Him is not free from the shackles of logic. You are absolutely right here.
3. Now I am not sure that the concept of the rigid system that you demand is necessary, but I will go along with you and assume that you are right about this too, that is, let's assume that it is required.
4. In light of this, why is what you call “supernatural intervention” not considered a rigid system in your eyes? Just as God created two systems in man (a physical one that is subject to the laws of physics and a mental/spiritual one that is rigid and does not respond to them), so too, from your point of view, it is possible and, in my opinion, even necessary to assume that God created the system of nature in a similar way. That is, in the natural system that He created, disasters occur that are subject to ordinary laws, and at the same time, in its background, He created a metaphysical system that knows how to intervene in special times of distress (which, let's say, God defined for it in advance). In your opinion, is this not a reasonable solution for someone who holds your position? Why not attribute a rigid status to such a metaphysical system?
5. If you did not accept this, then it is really impossible to continue, but then in my opinion your entire move will not be able to take off. On the other hand, if you did accept it, you will now run into a new problem – as far as we see and know if there is such a metaphysical system (which has “sensors” for unreasonable suffering) it does not work.
6. Bottom line: In my opinion, if you were faithful to your line of explanation, you would be forced to offer the solution I showed, except that then it would be revealed that your proposal contradicts what is happening in reality. Something fundamental in the axis of your explanation is wrong.
7. I will hint at my solution: God is not “good” by definition, but only a condition that enables this goodness. Of course, my proposal conflicts with the idea of God being essentially personal as it appears in the Bible.
In my book God Plays Dice, I argued that the phrase “metaphysical” is actually not well defined. In what sense is this system of laws metaphysical? You are merely claiming that the system of natural laws is not just a collection of our laws of physics but also a few more rigid laws (which you call metaphysical). Cheers. The question is still whether such a rigid system exists or not. Calling it metaphysical does not help you show that such a system exists. Only if you give up its rigidity, but then we are back to square one. In any case, its being metaphysical neither increases nor decreases.
As a dualist who believes in the separation of body and soul (and who yourself defines the latter as not operating according to deterministic physical laws), your answer is really puzzling. What here is not defined well or is fundamentally different from your definition of the human soul? Even there, God made a “preparation” of two systems and everything is, in your eyes, a toffee beauty.
In any case, I tried to follow the principle of grace to interpret your proposal and my conclusion was that even if we improve it to the maximum according to its internal logic – what you yourself did not do – it is not enough. We look at reality and see that the improved proposal does not work in practice…
And so you get the idea that your God is bound in advance by laws that have no real logical necessity. As Mordechai put it, it seems to me – Your God is not the owner of the house, even within his own house.
Either you didn't read what I said or you didn't understand, or I don't understand you. I think I've exhausted myself.
Wow. What a talent for expression. I think like you. Good is not equal to “fun”. Of course, the definition of divine goodness is derived from ethical goodness on another side (from the side of the essence of God, as in His “attributes”) and it is he who is defined as good (even though it involves suffering)..
Dror, I would love a link to the discussion you had with the rabbi last time.
Thank you very much!
*Doron
Nav0863
Did you contact me for a link?
Yes, if there is. It was mentioned above that you have already discussed this before. If you know where I would be happy!
I so agree with your position! In my opinion, everything else is just a bunch of “synthetic” arguments.
I don't really remember where... I've been commenting on this site for years now and I've argued with Miki more than once about all sorts of things (and agree with him on a lot of other things). In general, I think Miki presents a correct philosophy but fails to implement it consistently. If the desire arises from before or behind me, I'll respond to his current column on logic and there I'll argue something related to the fact that God is not good (or evil).
This is my second response to Micah.
It reads:
“In the end, Dror does not offer another solution to the problem of evil. Even if I accept everything he writes (and Eli certainly does not), he will have to choose between the following conclusions: either God is evil, or conduct that causes suffering to innocent people is good. So good luck to him.”
First of all, there is a false choice here. Please don't put words in my mouth.
There is a third option that there are no innocent people at all in this whole story (according to Rabbi Eliyahu and Rabbi Yaakov).
The implicit (or not implicit) assumption in what Rabbi Eliyahu wrote in the article or in what Rabbi Yaakov wrote here about reincarnation is that there are really no innocent people.
As for Rabbi Yaakov, it is quite clear that if it is reincarnation and everything is engineered down to the last comma from God, then it is completely clear that there is no innocent people here. Regarding what Rabbi Eliyahu wrote, in the end, along with the claims about the insensitivity in Rabbi Eliyahu's writing, it is clear that Rabbi Eliyahu intended that justice be done here from the perspective of God, and the babies who died in terrible suffering are not considered innocent, because from the perspective of God (according to Rabbi Eliyahu) there is a sin here of an entire nation (the Turks) towards the people of Israel, whose sins also their babies must suffer from.
And I will tell you more than that - you yourself agree with such a way of conduct of the Almighty.
You are certainly familiar with the Book of Exodus, in which it is told quite clearly that all the firstborn of Egypt died. Due to the sins of Egypt towards the people of Israel.
And I am willing to bet all my money that when you read these verses in the Torah, you follow the reader in the Torah (and perhaps read yourself) while seeing in this text a sacred text that represents the word of God, the Almighty, and details His manner of conduct.
Bottom line, I have no idea whether Rabbi Yaakov is right or Rabbi Eliyahu, or maybe even your method.
I want to say two things:
A. Their method is much more consistent and logical, and places God in a much more positive light than your method.
B. You yourself read, while sparks of holiness flicker in your heart, in the Book of Exodus about the deaths of quite a few Egyptian babies (perhaps more than those who died in Turkey). And even soon you will sit at the Passover table (Seder night) and read the Haggadah with great joy. You will tell your children about the wonderful miracles that God performed - judging all the firstborn of Egypt.
I mean, there is a problem with you, as someone who reads the Haggadah, criticizing Rabbi Eliyahu's approach. It is a bit (a lot) hypocritical.
The wonders of the Creator.
Dror
You sent a link that asked you about explicit verses that God punishes the small for the big. I didn't see an answer to that in the column here.
What you wrote there is that the verses are being pushed, not something
But what's wrong with you pushing the verses that are good? I mean, for the most part, they are good and occasionally they are not good. You push the verses as usual, but maybe it's hard for you to have the intuition that they are absolutely good. It seems to me that the intuition says that nothing bad came out of it and everything is calculated down to the last detail.
No one is clear,
I answered that. If the little ones only died then it is really a punishment for the big ones and not the little ones. If they suffered then it was probably just a failure to prevent and not a direct cause.
Your mistake about the one who insists in the verses is that there is no such thing as ‘sometimes good’. Someone who is sometimes good is not good. Good means someone who follows a good path. Humans of course sometimes fail because of instinct, but God is not supposed to fail. If He is good to you then He is always good.
And as for your intuition, good for you. You just need to explain how it aligns with reality. Good luck.
Do you think there is no moral problem in killing small children without them suffering?
There is a problem, but it's simply not with the little ones. After they are killed, they no longer exist.
So if they are orphans, is it permissible to kill them? And what about their parents, are they permitted to kill their children?
This is towards God.
How does this fit in with the soul remaining? If something exists even after they are killed, then something bad happened to them themselves, like what you just mentioned in your post about the fear of death.
In any case, they do not suffer or regret.
Dror, what words did I put in your mouth? I told you that in your opinion you have to choose between two options. Let's say that you think I was wrong and this is a false choice, but where is the wording here? Beyond that, I was of course not wrong.
If you think babies are not innocent, then we really have nothing to talk about. I answered about reincarnation in a separate section, so there is no point in including it here. And in general, if you accept their delusions, then what is there to discuss here? You are trying to dance about two weddings, both not to identify with them and also to explain that they are right. In your language, this is a ‘false no choice’.
And of course, if the babies in Turkey are really guilty of reincarnations and the like, then what is the point of sorrow and why the participation in Rabbi Eliyahu's suffering? Everything is fine. They deserve it.
The suffering of babies in the Egyptian birthright, as in the destruction of the Temple, is also answered. First, who said they suffered? If they did not suffer, it is a punishment for the parents and not for them. And even if so, it could be non-interference in the general punishment and not imposing a direct punishment on them.
Regarding the comparisons to the strange (?) methods of Rabbi Eliyahu and Yaakov and my hypocrisy, the readers or their incarnations will judge. I am dealing here with arguments and not statements.
It seems that you insist on ignoring what I wrote without reasoning, and therefore it seems that there really is no point in discussing it.
You write in a column that there may be some purpose that we don't know what it is
and then you make it difficult for a purpose that Rabbi Eliyahu proposed
After all, it is possible to reach this purpose without killing babies. Indeed, the purpose he proposes is strange (although the Torah seems to have a collective punishment for a nation). But as for the matter itself, there may be other purposes that we have no idea about and about which it is impossible to ask whether they can be achieved in another way. I didn't understand why you rejected this path.
In any case, it seems that even though you say that it is impossible to learn anything from the Bible, one thing can probably be learned: there is no answer to the question of evil.
And the truth is that there is no need for verses either, because your answers here say something like "not something."
It is impossible to achieve this purpose without killing babies. That is the whole point here. If the purpose is collective punishment, then it is an immoral purpose. I am talking about immoral purposes. Beyond that, how can this conclusion be drawn from the events. If God wants to achieve some other purposes that are not bound by morality, then you also cannot conclude that he wanted to punish the Turks. Maybe he wanted to thin the population of Asia?
I really do not learn anything from the Bible, contrary to your suggestion and that of Rabbi Eliyahu.
My answers do not exist, and therefore it is difficult to talk about the question of whether they are something or not something. What I am suggesting is that there is no question, and in any case, there is no need for an answer. I claim that there is probably some purpose and that is it. Rabbi Eliyahu explains what the purpose is, and there is no basis for it, and it is also very illogical. Since I am settling and not making it difficult, the burden of proof is not on me.
This is completely simple logic and I do not understand what is difficult about it. The only alternative is to remain in the situation, and when it comes to a difficulty/contradiction and not a question, there is no such option.
I didn't understand your words, maybe something with the punctuation or the commas.
In any case, the claim was in your words that there was some kind of immoral purpose, but rather, it was said to repair the crown and let's discuss it. You made many claims there, but they are only against Rabbi Eliyahu's move, but they do not rule out the possibility of an unknown purpose, and in any case, it is not difficult at all. There may be a question, as you call it, but not a difficulty, just as we do not know why pork is forbidden, so we will not know why suffering Turks is good.
Indeed, in principle it is possible that there is an unknown purpose. My claims that the events are not the work of God do not depend on my criticism of Rabbi Eliyahu.
But the thesis of an unknown purpose in itself is problematic. Why can't God create this purpose without harming innocent people? Of necessity you arrive at the conclusion that He is also subject to limitations. But then I don't see what you have gained over my thesis, which also aligns better with our perception of reality.
There is a difference between accepting the prohibition of eating pork without understanding, because of the claim that there is an unknown purpose, and doing something immoral because of an unknown purpose. In the second case, if there is another solution, I would expect them to choose it.
First, I'm sorry, but the argument of “Who said that the babies in Egypt suffered” requires the same response:
Who said that babies buried in Turkey under the rubble for days (whether they live for days until death or die immediately) suffered – Maybe a miracle was performed for them and everyone who died did not suffer at all – Or died immediately without pain or was in a coma for several days?
If you are allowed to use this argument, why should mine be forbidden?
I am not, God forbid, disparaging your argument, but presenting an identical argument. Decide what you think of it.
You also wrote “And even if so, it could be non-interference in the general punishment and not imposing a direct punishment on them.”
This makes God seem immoral to me. You claim that He did not punish the innocent babies (or the other innocents), but that they were simply harmed “along the way”, and the Almighty God did not see fit to exclude them (He knew how to exclude the Israelites, didn't He?).
I have a hard time with this.
Secondly, I am convinced that there were many parents in Egypt who were not active partners in the enslavement of the Israelites, why did they deserve the enormous mental suffering of losing their firstborn (and I am not even mentioning the previous plagues that affected their bodies and property). Why did the Almighty God act against the innocent here?
Why didn't He perform a miracle and only harm the firstborns of Pharaoh's officers and the enslavers themselves?
After all, He is omnipotent, so why didn't He act this way?
I felt that you did put words in my mouth, because there is the option that from an absolute point of view (the morality of the Almighty) everything is measured to the millimeter. Anyone who wants to is also welcome to choose this (and there is no shortage of such people, including the greats of the generation). And this is not only in my opinion, it is a very common and accepted opinion among all rabbis and believers. Whether I/you accept it or not, we must present it as an option.
Why does Rabbi Eliyahu participate in suffering?
Because he has the image of the Creator, and even though (in his opinion) the criminal gets what he deserves, one can also be sad, and apparently even though he himself thinks he knows the calculations of heaven in the case of Turkey, he still does not know them in detail, but only in an economic sense (the Turks committed a crime against Israel).
I'm not that knowledgeable about rabbis, but contrary to how Rabbi Eliyahu presented it, 99.99% of rabbis who do believe in the providence of God say quite clearly that we do not know the heavenly accounts in the resolutions that Rabbi Eliyahu presented.
But even if Rabbi Eliyahu was wrong in his assessment of the heavenly accounts (and these are completely different accounts, as Rabbi Yaakov presented in the incarnations), the method of accepting that there is someone who directs everything still works better in my head than your method that asserts lack of intervention, which for me is a difficult question about the conduct of God.
By the way, I suggest you read what Rabbi Shach, the late, said about the terrible Holocaust. I'll even leave a link here. I don't know if it's true or not. But it is a moral presentation of God.
https://www.hidabroot.org/article/1122240
Dror
If you had thought a little, you would have answered yourself. We know that the babies in Turkey suffered. We saw it. We really don't know that the babies in Egypt suffered. The angel of death killed them at midnight, in an instant. It is very likely that they did not suffer at all. If there was any indication that they suffered, there would be room to talk, but when there is no indication that they suffered, and in fact it is a matter of death in an instant and therefore it is likely that they did not suffer, and in addition their suffering contradicts the goodness of God, then to conclude from this that they suffered is miraculous stubbornness.
I suggest that he is omnipotent, but there are constraints that he cannot deal with. And this is what causes him not to intervene. I don't see what is difficult about this, especially since the only alternative is to conclude that he is not good.
I don't know who participated in the enslavement of the Jews and who did not, so it is difficult for me to judge. You are speculating unnecessarily and making things difficult. I am offering solutions to an existing difficulty for which you have no solution.
I have already answered Rabbi Eliyahu's participation in suffering. Does he also participate in the suffering of terrorist families? Why? Just because here he sees why they deserve it? So it is just psychology, weakness and not values. Articles are not written about that.
I will not expand on Rabbi Schach's delusional answer here. I will only say that he interprets it as punishment for enlightenment, others interpret it as Zionism and the Zionists interpret it as Harediism (resistance to Zionism). That is about what all these strange explanations are worth, and all of them of course do not answer the suffering of babies and righteous people.
I will only answer even if you think you came out of what I brought from Egypt is reasonable. Of course, you can bring a number of more examples from the Bible ”
Innocent babies who were killed in the flood (for those who accept the story literally).
Innocent babies in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Amalek babies that David and Saul destroyed at the command of God.
Babies of the people of Canaan and the surrounding nations that Joshua and Moses destroyed at the command of God.
And so on. .
I bet you will argue that because we didn't see anything, then God must have performed a miracle and all the innocent people who were harmed of course didn't suffer more than a moment and nothing more.
In my opinion, this is apologetics at the cheapest level possible. And in my opinion, every person with integrity and common sense should believe the same.
Or they follow the path of those who want to think like the coaches in total providence. -There are no innocents. Even among babies.
There are heavenly accounts here (reincarnation, crimes of the nation, crimes of the fathers or the devil knows what) that no one knows exactly what they are.
But whoever wants to accept this method, with all the problems involved (it also doesn't sound brilliant, to say the least), is much more honest in my opinion than the method you present. And yes, God also comes out of this method completely moral (according to the law).
Another important thing to conclude
The fact that there are several different approaches and explanations for the Holocaust does not mean that they are all wrong. It is possible that one is right.
Or perhaps it is even possible that there is a kernel of truth in all of them.
For example, those who joined the Zionists and as a result unloaded the burden – certainly worsened the situation of the heavenly account.
On the other hand, those who did not fulfill the commandment to settle the land when there was an opportunity – they also worsened the situation of the account in heaven.
And of course, the Reformers in Germany also worsened the situation of the account in heaven.
Bottom line – There is truth in all of them: Satmar, religious Zionism, Lithuanians. You can accept all opinions and stay alive.
Dror
In none of these cases is there necessarily been suffering. This is in contrast to Turkey, where we know there was.
With Amalek (and perhaps also the people of Canaan) it is a persecutory law. They were killed in the name of their end. In a group that raises its children to persecute and murder, children can also be killed.
The fact that there are different explanations for the Holocaust certainly does not mean that they are all wrong, it only means that these explanations are dubious, and that the lesson from the Holocaust, if there was one, has not been learned.
Everyone is right even though they disagree with each other. The wonders of vague logic.
Well, we really have exhausted ourselves.
The prophet has allegations about the worst evil imaginable. Mordechai alluded to this (by the way, it turns out he is not a rabbi), which they see being carried out under the protection of the Almighty. Including harming innocent people.
Innocent people in abundance. Including severe and immense suffering caused to babies in an explicit verse
We will cite a few verses for the benefit of our dear readers, from which it can be concluded that there was no compassion for the innocent, and severe suffering is described:
"If women eat the fruit of the womb"
"The hands of compassionate women eat their children".
“Her fruit has gone into captivity, before the king”
“My virgins and my young men, they have gone into captivity”
“You have killed in the day of your anger, you have slaughtered without pity”
And the passage about the babies who suffer from hunger and thirst:
“The tongue of the suckling sticks to his breast, in thirst; the ravens that asked for bread, have no one to deliver them.”
But everything is fine – You are allowed to continue with the apologetics. It is allowed by law.
So you are welcome to try to make excuses here too.
Dror.
We will continue with my series of questions.
You wrote
Dror's request to have defined boundaries for God's involvement is ridiculous, of course.
I will ask it a little differently –
You wrote that God's involvement in the world is decreasing.
I quote (also from the current article):
This is a gradual transition . . . It is true that in previous periods divine involvement was in a higher dose. . .”
According to the website, you accept the theory of evolution, and as a whole, believe that it is correct (I congratulate you for that).
Do you mean that a billion years ago God was more involved than a hundred thousand years ago?
Or that in general His more active involvement only began at a certain time, and since then it has been decreasing.
If it only started at a certain time, I want to know from what time period in evolution, did God's involvement begin.
For example, was it when Homo sapiens already existed (about 200-400 thousand years ago) or was it before or after sometime?
I would appreciate a very general answer, in order to try to understand the thesis.
This is not about going down to resolutions or very small and marginal details. It is about wanting to understand your perception in general.
Dror
I have no idea. There is no way to know this and it is also irrelevant to the fundamental discussion. We see that the involvement is decreasing, and this is the consensus. Prophecy and overt divination no longer exist by all opinions. So there was some involvement in the past and I do not know at what rate it changed or is changing, and at what stages of evolution exactly it was involved, if at all.
It is like seeing footprints in the sand, and deducing from this that a creature passed through here and left them. Is it required of me to describe this creature in order to claim this?
Another example of a hypothetical case. The mikveh was kosher a month ago, and now it is seen to be missing. Somewhere in the middle something happened there (the water evaporated, for example, or someone drew some from it). In order to invoke the law of hypothetical case or claim that there was a change, do I need to explain at what rate the water evaporated or whether this change happened all at once and when and why?
My desire to understand the method, and this is to continue to wonder about its origin.
Probably in times when God was involved as much as possible, the world was a safer and more peaceful place.
If, for example, you were to say that in your opinion God was involved from the moment evolution began (after the first cell was created), I would find it difficult, since it is known that in the past those present on Earth knew several extinctions, including extinctions that wiped out almost everything here. Which means that if this was indeed your approach (that involvement is throughout evolution) then it is easy to find flaws in it.
Even if you claim that involvement only began from the moment Homo sapiens started walking here, or even only 6 thousand years ago, one can think of possible flaws.
I mean, along with the other difficulties I raised (including an explicit quote from a prophet who claims that innocent people suffered quite a bit), in every situation in the theory of “fading involvement” there are more holes than yellow cheese that has been passed over by a number of mice.
Dror
Absolutely not. Today, humans are much more concerned about our situation, thereby completing what God does not do. The conclusion that the world was once safer is not correct and does not follow in any way from my words. On the contrary, because humans were once helpless and of a low moral standard, God needed to intervene more to balance this out somewhat. There is still quite a bit of evil there. Today, the need for His intervention has diminished because the responsibility, abilities, and values are on us and in our hands.
I did not see any significant difficulty in what you said, but I really feel that we are spinning around our own tails.
I conclude for the benefit of the readers, so far:
(!) I argue that the method in which it is said that everything is from God and that there are no truly innocent people, or at least that the reasonable suffering (“a thorn under the foot”) made possible by God is a more ethical, logical and moral presentation of God than Miki's method.
(!!) I argue that it is possible to define a logical line of what is average suffering that is also reasonable from a human perspective.
(!!!) I maintain, based on explicit verses in the Bible, that even in the past, “innocent” babies (there are no truly innocent people – everything is legal) suffered and suffered. Miki believes that there is no evidence that in the past (when God was more involved than today) there was suffering of innocent people like we do today. You are invited to review the verses I cited from Lamentations (for example).
(!!!!) I claim that even in the past, humanity (or the creation that came before humanity) knew about natural disasters and the deaths of innocent people, just as we know today about natural disasters and the deaths of innocent people in these disasters, and perhaps even more (mass extinctions). I claim that even if there were natural disasters during the time of God's intervention, the number of innocent victims would have been lower than today (relatively), because God would have performed miracles, and rescued, for example, those who were trapped under the ruins of the earthquake (but He would not have rescued everyone because there was still room for a lot of natural evil, and there is no need to perform a miracle for everyone, only for some is enough).
I hope I presented things correctly and fairly.
The readers will judge.
Dror.
Just a general comment
I find it difficult to understand how Rabbi Michi takes it upon himself to interpret the actions and intentions of God and to determine that there was a ‘policy change’ (as he also writes and explains in his book in volume 2). How does he know?
The difference, or the difference, between our time and the time of the Bible (about 3000 years) is in the development of human consciousness, and as a result, his understanding of reality and its interpretation. A small child sees a hill as a high mountain…
Nature apparently has not changed over the 3000 years. Disasters have always existed even if they were not mentioned in the Bible. What was mentioned was only the impression of the people of the time on certain events that they interpreted as ’miracles’.
Columbus threatened the natives with the wrath of God and as a sign of this, he ‘predicted’ them that in a day there would be a lunar eclipse. … And so it was. His consciousness was more developed than that of the natives…
The rest is complete nonsense.
Zvika Gelbfish
My explanations are merely suggestions. The facts are that there was once involvement (if you believe in the Torah and the Prophets) and now there probably isn't. Nature has indeed not changed. What has changed is the degree of involvement of God.
Of course, if you don't accept the Torah and the Prophets, then you have no reason to need such explanations.
The Bible says a lot of things.
It says that the world was created in six days (in terms of pure simplicity), and you don't accept that.
The Bible says in the scroll of Icha about suffering caused to innocent people - you don't accept that.
The Bible says about the involvement of God - you do accept that. For example, the standing of Mount Sinai, the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, the sun in Gibeon, or even things that aren't written, like the rescue of some (only some, of course, not all) of the innocent people in a natural earthquake.
By the way, I wonder why they didn't perform one small miracle in advance to prevent a natural earthquake that would harm innocent people, and instead perform many miracles to rescue all kinds of innocent people buried under the rubble. Very strange. Indeed, the ways of the Almighty are hidden, as they say.
He asks rhetorically: What is the difference between what you receive (sunshine in Gibeon) and what you do not (six days)?
Everything must be looked at with a searching eye and examined to see if there is a real root to it.
Dror
I have much more to say about both this column and the talkback, and about the next column on democracy and game theory (which at least in areas where I understand something is as full of errors as a pomegranate at the level of knowledge, information is a secret – nevertheless, philosophical skill is not everything…), but I don't have the time and opportunity (also because of health, etc.).
Nevertheless, I will make one general comment here. Miki claims that ”reality” shows that God intervenes less in creation, and I wonder what glasses he is wearing. After all, the claim from reality is itself a “theological interpretation” (or atheistic). It is like the claim that ”the Bible says” And Micah firmly claims that the Bible says what it says. This is exactly the heart of the controversy - is it possible to see the fingerprints of the Holy One in reality? This is like footprints in the sand, as Micah described above, by which we try to describe who and what the nature of the creature that walked here was. Some would say a dinosaur, and some would say the Holy Shekhinah. In other words, the claim from reality is devoid of substance. So is the claim that today there are no miracles and prophecy. When Chazal spoke about the end of prophecy, they meant the prophets who were commanded to publish their prophecies and put them in writing for generations to come. Can we be sure that there are not people among us who have been granted prophetic revelation? (In my life, I have met several whom I suspected). It is not superfluous to mention the famous stories about Bat Kol who mentioned several sages who were worthy of the inspiration of the Shekhinah, such as Moses our Lord and Ezra, etc. It is not written that they did not receive revelation at all, but only that they did not receive revelation at a high level like Moses and Ezra. Can we be sure that there are no such people among us today? Where is that? (Decades ago I knew a humble, modest kabbalist, a great scholar but one who flees from publicity like fire, who claimed to me that he knew of several people in recent generations who received revelation. It is possible to mock, etc., but on what basis can we determine with certainty that he is wrong?).
The same is true of miracles. Indeed, I have not seen the Red Sea parting with my own eyes (only in movies). But Michi himself has said on several occasions (once I even heard from his holy one) that he cannot rule out that God, the Holy One, intervenes in a hidden way here and there. If this cannot be ruled out, then there is no point in arguing that God is not involved. At most, one can be agnostic on this question, and so on, and so on.
Mordechai, give one example of an error in the level of knowledge (the most serious error in your opinion) and then there will be a basis for your general claim that there are many more.
For example, Michi's firm assertion that the government controls the coalition (and therefore the Knesset) is absolute rule. This is nonsense that many opposition spokesmen repeat until some accept it as truth without criticism.
But, on the contrary, on the contrary. It is the coalition that controls the government. Government decisions reflect a political balance (whether it is right or wrong, there is no room here to elaborate) of the forces in the Knesset (not just in the coalition). When the balance is disturbed, the coalition falls apart and the government falls. (As it seems to me, there has never been a government in Israel that has served its time, and that is why).
By the way, in the 1990s (I think) researchers from the University of Haifa (again, I think, I'm writing from memory, unable to search the scriptures right now), calculated the Shefli and Rebuke indices (a.k.a.) of the parties in Israel, and found that the theory works (amazingly), and all the urban legends about "ultra-Orthodox blackmail" and other nonsense. The parties (both in the coalition and in the opposition) almost always manage to achieve what is expected according to their relative strength as measured by the above indices.
As mentioned, there are other errors and mistakes in the column due to lack of knowledge. But typing is painful for me (the damned rheumatism) and I think that's enough.
Are you claiming that there is no significant difference between being in a coalition or in the opposition because a party almost always succeeds in achieving what is expected of it based on its relative strength in the Knesset?
Why are you making it difficult for me to type when I have rheumatism? 😉
I didn't claim that there is no difference between being in a coalition or in the opposition. Why would I?
But I did claim that over time (which needs to be defined and is now difficult for me to extend) parties manage to achieve according to their relative strength, and this includes the opposition parties. The mere fact of being in the opposition reduces their strength, of course, and this is reflected in the above power indicators. But opposition parties can also achieve significant achievements in different constellations and so on.
These things are explained in more detail in the Open University's course "Political Economy". (Recently released in an internal temporary edition, I hope it will soon be released in a permanent edition for the general public as well).
You wrote, “This inevitably leads us to the conclusion that there are constraints that God is subject to, and hence his policy of non-intervention. For example, he decided to destroy the Temple and Jerusalem, but as a result there will be children who will suffer the shame of hunger.”
I don’t understand why you call this “non-intervention”? Isn’t this a Risha’s statement and you are referring to it?
Indeed, this is a Risha ruling. Do you want to sue him for Torah law? This entire world was created by him and all the results (at least the natural ones) are a Risha ruling.
So what is "non-intervention" and not its literal action?
In the same sense, all avoidance is non-intervention.
Indeed, I agree with your view on this rather than the other views (after you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth. (Sherlock Holmes, The Seal of the Four)
But in any case
It seems subtle, that there are holes, and there is room for simple questions
such as
that if He had created us in advance, for example, with a stomach as strong as a crow's, He would not have violated any law at all
And if He could have done so and did not, is there any evil here? You did not answer this clearly
Thank you
I didn't understand how this was different from all the other questions about suffering that I had answered.
You answered that there is no other possible world, because it would violate the law, and you said that the questioner must prove that such a world exists, so here I propose that world that created only a small change for the benefit of humans, a stomach like a crow?
What would happen if no law were violated, and if it is the height of goodness, why not do this better?
A very fundamental misunderstanding of this column. Laws that will result in a different person's stomach are different laws. This change has many other consequences, and you don't know what they will be.
Oh okay, if that's the answer, then your suggestion is invalid, to make a suggestion for another, better world, because you will always argue, lest there be consequences that you don't know what they are,
So we returned to the pious and radical belief, that even though it seems bad to us, trust it is the best that could have been for you. Only instead of blind faith, blind philosophy,
Long live the great difference (believers believe that he could have done better (because he is omnipotent) only if it is the best (like a square triangle), and philosophers believe that he is not omnipotent and could not do better than such and such constraints.
So don't reject us and don't bother us with making another suggestion because until we have worked on it (and found the bird whose stomach will please us), you are casually discarding it.
With such a lack of understanding, I am truly wasting my time and words.
A- Sorry
B- Not spoiling, there will always be someone from the followers who will be annoyed by this
C- So if you feel like explaining again, what suggestion would you like, or would there be some suggestion from a human being, about which you wouldn't say this sentence “This change has a lot of other implications, and you don't know what they will be”?
Thank you