A Contemporary Look at Teshuva (Column 507)
The Tension Between Ideology and Practice
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
At the beginning of the previous column I wrote that this one would address teshuva from a different and current angle. It concerns a particular kind of teshuva that people do, and the obligation upon us to do teshuva regarding our own attitude toward the phenomenon. I will return to this at the end of the column.
Rabbi Bunim Schreiber on Haredi Ideology
I will begin with an article I read a few days ago, which reported statements by Rabbi Bunim Schreiber regarding the cooperation of the Haredi parties with Netanyahu and the Likud. The piece stirred quite a few unexpected reflections in me, and here I will try to lay some of them out for you.
Rabbi Bunim and his brother Rabbi Yoss’le Schreiber (sons of the late Rabbi Pinchas Schreiber, who was a dayan in Ashdod and also sat on the court of the late Rabbi Nissim Karelitz) are two outstanding scholarly prodigies of this generation of Lithuanian yeshivot. I don’t know them in depth, but from what I have seen and heard their thinking is original and broad, and they address varied topics from unconventional angles. I preface with this precisely because the words Rabbi Bunim wrote here—he is, as noted, a Lithuanian rosh yeshiva—do not necessarily reflect those virtues.
In his remarks he warns his flock about Netanyahu, explaining that he is a wicked man and an enemy of Israel (well, don’t worry, this is not about Bibi’s corruption or lack of integrity, but about his attitude toward the Haredim and Judaism). Such words may surprise a public accustomed to placing the Haredim in the national camp (yeah, right), as natural allies of Netanyahu. He warns the public, as well as outsiders, not to be seduced by the ongoing coalitions with the Likud and the right, which, he claims, are nothing but politically necessary conjunctures for practical needs. In their view, Netanyahu is wicked and causes the many to sin, no less than his counterparts on the left. There is no reason—and no license—to feel any shared path with him, nor to see this cooperation as anything beyond a practical necessity.
But it’s not only about Netanyahu:
Those sinners and corrupters who stand and run the state are such that they have lost—and year after year continue to lose—millions of Jewish souls, uprooting them forever; they caused those Jews to forget and have done the worst thing on earth. Their wickedness is not comparable to those who merely tried to kill the body and remove it from this world. They entered the entirety of Israel and destroyed it from within, took out of the collective countless souls who will never return and cast them down to the nethermost pit. Who can define in words the magnitude of the devastation they have brought upon us and the intensity of the hatred we ought to feel toward them.
He inveighs against identification with the state in general and with the right-wing parties that have long gone with the Haredim. He even writes that the hatred toward them should be harsher than the hatred toward the seed of Ishmael, for the latter pursue only the body while these pursue the soul.
He sums up his “in-depth” essay with the words:
So even when we sit against our will in the company of the people of the state and rescue from the lion’s paw, it is not appropriate to feel that there is any thread that connects them to us.
The key expression is “rescuing from the lion’s paw.” This is the classic, time-honored expression of the Haredi policy that justifies involvement in politics (usually cast as a duty, or a mitzvah, to heed the voice of the gedolim who instruct us with this “incomprehensible” directive. A veritable decree). Voting is a kind of obligation, a burden and an irreproachable necessity in order to extract what we can from them—but certainly not an act done out of identification. Rabbi Bunim says that we are essentially dirtying our hands and feet in Zionist and secular mud (not the political filth, as a secular ear might infer. As noted, corruption does not bother them at all), and we cooperate with them only to extract whatever we can, to rescue from the lion and the bear.[1] The main intent is to preserve Haredi education, the bubble, and separation, but also a bit of religious coercion (to save the lion and the bear from themselves).
It’s hard for me to refrain from noting the gap between the intellectual abilities of Rabbi Bunim and his ilk—their depth and originality—and the nonsense they utter whenever their heads deviate even a millimeter from the Talmudic page. Foolish comparisons, a distorted and agenda-driven view of reality, kindergarten-level preaching, clinging to slogans that don’t really hold water, and so on and so forth. True, one can find this among intellectuals in other fields as well (as the saying goes: only from intellectuals can you hear such great nonsense). I have noted more than once (see, for example, in column 62 and many others) that seclusion in the ivory tower is a tried-and-true recipe for detached thinking and a lack of understanding of one’s surroundings.
Double Talk
Back to us. For all those surprised to hear such talk from the mainstream of Lithuanian Haredi society, it is worth noting the double talk common in the Haredi world. Internally, slogans are repeated again and again about the mitzvah to vote (with the requisite grimacing, “as they instruct you,” which does not quite match the enthusiasm invested in promoting this “burdensome mitzvah”) in order to rescue from the accursed Zionists (it suddenly occurs to me that Khamenei may have learned from them). Externally, the discourse is of cooperation and loyalty. Internally, drafting into the army is prohibited—both to avoid spiritual corruption and because why should we cooperate with the Zionists; let them eat what they cooked. Externally, the Torah protects and saves, and of course only those who study are exempt, and everything is done for the sake of the people and the State of Israel, etc., etc. One must understand that, as expected from a defensive minority, a Haredi speaking outward is first and foremost a propagandist (often not consciously), and that is how everything he says should be treated.
I recall one clear day when I was studying at the Netivot Olam yeshiva in Bnei Brak (for ba’alei teshuva). Suddenly I saw a lively movement of all the guys toward a bus waiting outside. When I asked, they explained that we were going to demonstrate in Jerusalem against the “slander” that Haredim don’t enlist. These were, of course, ba’alei teshuva who by nature had served in the army, and some continued in the reserves (especially those who failed to evade it), but the offended righteousness on their faces was instructive: how dare “they” say that Haredim don’t enlist? I’m a combat lieutenant colonel, a pilot, a commando, I serve here and there, I do several weeks every year, etc., etc. When I naively asked whether these data also apply to a Haredi from birth, and whether this service is not merely a residue of his previous biography, he didn’t understand what I wanted. They refused to admit that Haredism opposes military service and that Haredim do not serve. They knew the facts exactly as I did, but the sacred zeal washed their brains entirely. The self-persuasion with which everyone spoke was astonishing to me.
Returning to Rabbi Bunim, I am quite sure that his yeshiva students, after hearing his talk, surely said: “Well, tell us something new.” Although outside such things may sound surprising, to a Haredi ear they are trivial. This is the basic Haredi ideology on which everyone was raised and in whose name oaths are still made today (internally, of course. The “slander” that Haredim are there mainly for the money will be met with stormy protests). There is not a shred of novelty in them; they express the prevailing view since forever (actually since Sinai—the stage at which the hat, the shtreimel, Yiddish, and the gartel were invented).
The Other Side of the Coin
You probably think my goal here is to bash the Haredim. Actually, no—quite the opposite—and here I get to the punch line. Why did Rabbi Bunim feel the need to deliver his fiery essay precisely now? What exactly provoked his ire? What does he fear? It’s quite clear that he and his cohort, the guardians of the pure worldview, noticed that the public is slipping away and seeping outward. Not in the sense of leaving Haredism or religion—those are phenomena that are relatively easy to handle (simply deny their very existence, impose sanctions, and intensify the war for pure education and core studies). I’m speaking of men and women at the very heart of Haredi society who suddenly feel identification with the state, with the public at large, and stop seeing everything in black and white. They no longer buy the picture of wicked versus righteous, schemers versus persecuted, and the like. In politics, as well as a bit in study (though, of course, that is greatly prevented) and in the workplace, unmediated encounters arise with all the “wicked” around. And suddenly it turns out that here and there there’s also a reasonable secular person, pleasant, empathetic, with values and good aims—whose entire existence is not dedicated to destroying Judaism and Haredism. There they also encounter the troubles of others. They suddenly understand that the army has other goals besides mass religious persecution of Haredim. There are also some minor security problems we have to deal with. They begin to understand that there are people who bear this burden, who serve in mandatory and reserve service, who risk their lives, who pay with their time, money, business, and livelihood. As politicians they see that needs exist and that budgets don’t grow on trees, and that there are those who shoulder the economic burden. Suddenly the complaints about failing to share the burden begin to sound a bit less antisemitic.
For years it has been clear to me that Haredi representatives in the Knesset do not truly believe the very beliefs they themselves recite so emphatically (especially internally) about “rescuing from the lion and the bear.” They are partners in political conduct, and they understand that they themselves are no better than others (warning: understatement). In their roles as ministers, director-generals, and committee chairs, they also look after the general public (at least from time to time). Each one sees phenomena requiring treatment within his remit. If you are not stone-hearted, you rush to act. You can continue to preach about rescuing from the lion and the bear, but that is mainly to convince your senders and voters that you haven’t lost your humanity and haven’t surrendered to the Zionist system, heaven forfend. You are still “one of us” (unzerer). Sometimes you say it out of inner conviction because those are the slogans you grew up on (the “pure worldview”), even though you understand very well that it’s nonsense.
And yet, truth be told, deep down something like that does happen to you. Your outward talk, beyond the complaints of ongoing discrimination (sometimes even you understand they are false nonsense, but that is your job), your participation in what is done also for the lions and bears around you—this leads you to really mean it. A person who is inside a system and takes part in it becomes identified with it and starts to feel empathy toward it. MK Avraham Shapira, the legendary chair of the Finance Committee (“the state’s CEO”), was the first to alert me to this phenomenon. But I believe it applies to most of them. I even somewhat believe Gafni and Deri that sometimes they truly intend to act for the vulnerable—and not always as a pretext for funneling money to the Haredim (though that too, of course).
In the Haredi world a division is customary between the political representation, which muddies its feet in secular-political mud, and the Councils of Torah Sages, who remain inside the old beit midrash and are responsible for doctrinal purity. One of the main reasons for this split is the need to keep the representatives from slipping out—i.e., from becoming Zionists, heaven forfend—and beginning to identify with the environment rather than attending to their senders. This is the cord tying them to the Haredi world within and guarding the purity of their outlook and ideological conduct. It is well known that Rabbi Shach would have each of his Knesset representatives sign a contract that if he failed to obey, he would be immediately removed. It’s not only about decline due to interests but about the expected development of identification with the surroundings.
My claim is that Rabbi Bunim Schreiber and his colleagues keenly sense this process of destabilization. It is happening not only to Knesset members but to substantial parts of the Haredi public. The more they become involved in public life in the state (of course efforts are made to prevent this at all costs), in education, in the economy and work, and of course in politics (in recent years—actually in government), the more they develop identification and lose a bit of the sense of siege and of rescuing from the lion and the bear. The lions and bears suddenly acquire concrete human faces, and it turns out they are not so vicious. In my view, this is the reason for this outburst and others like it (voiced mainly internally, but here they leaked out). Those who remain in the yeshiva ivory tower feel that the outside world is slipping from their grasp, and Haredism is changing its character and its sentiments. Suddenly Netanyahu and the secular are not such great wicked people (in the Haredi sense—unrelated to corruption, which, as noted, does not really interest them). Haredi sentiment is changing all the time. Therefore they try to preserve the sense of discrimination, mount barricades over silly and incidental issues (like the Belz education issue), attempt to close off and block any connection to livelihood, study, and the secular world in general (see under: internet, mobile phones, and the like), and in particular remind everyone of what we received at Sinai: we engage only in rescuing from the lion and the bear. Heaven forbid to develop genuine identification.
But it is very hard to do this in our global world. Haredism is slowly slipping from the hands of its ideological politruks, and Rabbi Bunim’s outcry reflects this well. I tell my friends who know the Haredi world less well, again and again: the wars there are almost always internal.[2] The harsher the war with the outside, the more it means that something inside is destabilizing and beginning to look like the “outside.” In fact, they are fighting internal Haredi elements and the legitimacy of “secular” elements being expressed within Haredi society itself. The outside is merely a target for psychological projection of the internal factor.
If so, my claim is that despite the invective, Rabbi Bunim’s words are, in my eyes, praiseworthy. The more the ideological war intensifies and the rhetoric grows extreme, the more it means the public is moving in the right direction. Something is changing in not insignificant segments of Haredi society, and the desperate struggle to stop it is not very successful and, in fact, reflects the existence of this blessed phenomenon. Not for nothing did I write in my manifesto (column 500) that the Haredi mainstream is already Zionist in every practical sense.[3]
Since we’re judging favorably, I’ll add that even the indifference toward Netanyahu’s corruption—and corruption in general—is not necessarily due to anti-Zionism or moral failings. There is a mix here of distrust in the modern values of the state (democracy and integrity, transparency), distrust of the press (“there is no corruption; it’s all lies and persecution”), and, above all, distress. According to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, when you’re fighting for your life and money you have neither the time nor the mental bandwidth to root out corruption and purify morals. On the contrary, at times you use it to solve your own predicaments.
The Dissonance Between Ideology and Practice
Thus, Rabbi Bunim’s quotations, which seem to express separatist and alienated positions, actually reflect the opposite and blessed processes occurring in Haredi society. Let’s not be mistaken. They accurately express the ideology, and that has not changed at all. But they reflect the fact that practical conduct, both among the public and its representatives, is changing constantly. These words are an expression of a deepening dissonance between ideological conceptions and declarations and the practical conduct on the ground. Moreover, the more practice distances itself from outlook and ideology, the more extreme the ideological counter-expressions become. I have written in the past that, in my opinion, extreme phenomena such as the shawl-women, the hilltop youth, the “Lev Tahor” cult, and the Lithuanian Jerusalem faction constitute a reaction by those who cling to ideology against the normalization of the mainstream and its practical distancing from ideology. I wrote that precisely because these phenomena fit the ideology and seemingly express it more fully and honestly than is customary, the mainstream’s war against them is more severe. How can a person who holds an ideology but compromises on its application go to war against one who applies it in the most straightforward and complete manner? For him it is a mirror reflecting his weaknesses and pragmatic compromise.
This is the dissonance I described above. On the practical plane and in people’s inner feelings there is no significant distance between the Haredim and the national-religious. But the declarative and ideological differences remain for most as they were—only on paper. You will not hear a conscious renunciation of them. We continue to swear by the old slogans and the pure worldview, even though we ourselves have long not been there. By the way, this duality of planes exists in many places, but among Haredim it is a very pronounced feature. Haredim are a very pragmatic group, and they have no problem living with such duality. They can mock the conduct of the courts of Rabbis Elyashiv (and, as they would say, “the great R. Y.S. Efrati”), Steinman, or Kanievsky—and at the same time submit to their instructions and regard them as binding da’at Torah. Haredim are accustomed to theoretical talk detached from practical conduct. They declare that appearing in civil courts and cooperating with them is like planting an Asherah by the altar and raising a hand against the Torah of Moses, and at the same time send their best sons and daughters to study law.[4] Women on religious councils was once “be killed and not transgress,” until the Shakdiel High Court ruling decided otherwise—then suddenly the law changed as if by magic. I have shown before that this is also the case regarding their attitude to the obligation of hishtadlut (see, for example, column 279): on the one hand, of course, it is invalid and does not affect our lives (for everything is in Heaven’s hands), and at the same time one must not take it lightly—not even a shred. In the past I noted that the hardalniks (especially the “Kav” groups) are very ideological and not pragmatic. In this sense, the Jerusalem faction is closer to them.
So who is right? Whom should we esteem more? Seemingly those who apply ideology in life more honestly and fully. But here I want to argue otherwise. There are complex human processes in which ideology follows practice. The feelings that arise from life itself initially stand opposed to ideology and theory, but gradually those bend and adapt themselves to practice. After actions, hearts are drawn. Our direct grasp of lived experience sometimes hits closer to the truth than our ideological conceptualizations. Those perhaps sound correct and logical, but life tells us otherwise. I take these processes very seriously; I do not see in them ideological deviation but a blessed change in the ideology itself done “from below,” through practice. There is something in unmediated encounters with life and with other opinions that can influence in a way no theoretical analysis can. The people in the fields are sometimes more right than the smart alecks cloistered in their ivory towers.
There are theoreticians who will always be careful to point to this gap and to “identify deep processes,” that is, to show us that nothing has really changed and that we are in a war according to the doctrine of stages. The Haredim want to conquer us and therefore issue consensus statements outward, but look—see what they really say and write internally (=Rabbi Bunim’s words about rescuing from the lion and the bear). Various researchers of Haredim explain to us that they are deceiving us, that their aim is to seize another goat and another dunam, and they quote the sacred writings of Haredi ideology. But I do not buy this. On the contrary, even if they bring me dozens of citations about rescuing from the lion and the bear, practice in my eyes is stronger than anything. It merely means that the ideological declarations are an anachronism they cannot yet deny and confront—i.e., change—explicitly. The change is taking a more winding path, for that is the way of an ideological society (but not too ideological).
Similar Phenomena in the National-Religious Camp
In a similar way we are told that Smotrich wants to establish a halakhic state here. They claim that for now he speaks relatively moderately and improves his attitude toward LGBTQ people, etc., but that this is merely the doctrine of stages. After securing his place he will establish the Sanhedrin and begin executing heretics, destroying houses of idolatry, and blowing up the al-Aqsa Mosque. The learned among us will bring articles and ideological writings in which such ideology and theory are explicitly stated. Moreover, Smotrich himself will speak thus internally even if he denies it externally. After all, he cannot deny simple, undisputed halakhot.
Many believe that what is said internally and anchored in ideology is what truly matters and reflects the beliefs—and, by extension, the risks they pose. Practical conduct is merely tactical (the doctrine of stages). But here, too, I say that practice is stronger than any ideology, and if Smotrich does not conduct himself in that way, it is reasonable that he probably no longer fully thinks that way either. Contact with the “other” and with the life of action has a magical effect on ideologues and ideologies, and therefore, in most cases, I think movements and groups should be judged by their conduct in practice and not by their ideology (this too is a generalization, but I think the point is clear).
Needless to say, the same applies even more to Itamar Ben-Gvir and his “Otzma Yehudit” party. In recent days a lively public discussion has been underway about him. In the past he identified very clearly with Rabbi Kahane’s extremist statements, hung a picture of the “holy” Baruch (Hu) Goldstein in his living room, and was a central activist of Kach. In recent years he has been going through normalization, which has gained recognition in the media as well. They frequently interview him and thereby, of course, grant him legitimacy. Many criticize this media conduct and claim there is no real change here but a doctrine of stages. They quote his Kahanist theory, say it has not changed, and therefore conclude that he is merely adopting a tactic of niceness to garner support, legitimacy, and political power. Ben-Gvir’s current positions lie well within the legitimate domain, but his critics refuse to accept this. In a deterministic fixation they keep seeing it as dishonesty and staged behavior, for they will not ignore his ideological sources and his past, and they subordinate his practical behavior—though it factually appears quite different—to those sources.
And indeed, Ben-Gvir’s associates, like Baruch Marzel, Michael Ben-Ari, and others, say otherwise. In their view he is truly deviating from the Kahanist doctrine and is in fact betraying the “Jewish idea” (the name of Kahane’s yeshiva). It turns out that Ben-Gvir himself agrees precisely with his critics on the right (i.e., he claims his positions truly have changed), although, of course, his critics on the left will say this is only a tactic. I have even seen the conjecture that this is a joint scheme planned with his critics on the right to lend credibility to his normalization.
But in my unlearned impression (I don’t know him), Ben-Gvir is undergoing a genuine change. Practice and the encounter, in the arenas of action, with other groups (leftists, Arabs, LGBTQ folks, and so on) are doing something to him. He does not sit in an ideological ivory tower but gets his hands dirty in politics and even seeks senior executive positions. He works in cooperation with colleagues from other parties and groups, meets with them, and reports to them. This brings him to the conclusion—or feeling—that his ideology is detached and likely incorrect. Unlike the Haredim, he even dares to voice this aloud.[5] In my estimation he is already further to the left than what he himself expresses out loud. As noted, ideology always lags behind practice.
The Implications of This Tension
The path of practical progress without touching ideology has power. In this way one can effect deep changes without hopeless wars. On the other hand, ideology has a very strong force that is hard to withstand. A person is constantly measuring himself, and being measured by others, against his ideology and theirs. This tension constantly challenges those who are bringing about the change, placing them before the ideological mirror. This is especially true at the stage when the changes in practice have not yet been translated into the ideological plane (this is the stage of double talk). In the initial state the ideology remains unchanged but practice is already elsewhere; then a practical person may sometimes feel that he is in fact a compromiser and weakling, and that he is required to return and cling to his ideology (to do teshuva). For this reason, militant and extreme groups succeed time and again in overcoming the pragmatism of the majority, for they are perceived as more credible and honest representatives of the correct ideological path. At the same time, ideological voices crying out truth against practice (like Rabbi Bunim) also serve critics standing outside to prove that the process is not real. Thus leftists prove that Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and Gafni are extremists in disguise. Thus they ground the thesis regarding the doctrine of stages or the “salami method,” by making comparisons to ideology and accusing them of double talk inward and outward. They sound moderate in Hebrew and extreme in Yiddish, and critics prefer, of course, to relate to the Yiddish.
It is important to understand that the representatives and people on the ground themselves sometimes use the terminology of the doctrine of stages to describe their own mode of operation. They say our hand is not strong, the time is not ripe, we must rescue from the lion and the bear, and so on. These are ex post facto justifications for the gap between ideology and practice. But in many cases, I think, they do not actually intend to proceed to the next stages. Even when our hand is strong they will not stone Sabbath desecrators, will not destroy houses of idolatry, and will not outlaw leftism. In my view such expressions are often intended merely to calm the ideologues and tell them that for now our hand is not strong and therefore we focus on this stage. Afterwards (may that “afterwards” never arrive) we will talk about the next stage. My claim is that in many cases this is in fact a move toward substantive moderation, and the talk of stages or the salami method is merely a way to justify it vis-à-vis the ideology (which they do not dare to touch). Therefore, I think it is more correct to judge such groups and representatives by practice rather than by ideology and their internal written sources.
Incidentally, hence the importance of conceptualization—that is, translating practice back into the ideological plane. Until that is done, the process is reversible, for the tension between practice and ideology can pull us to either side and even reverse the direction of progress. When one succeeds in translating the practical change into a corrected and moderated ideology, the direction becomes more stable. Of course, the guardians of the ideological flame will oppose this, for it robs them of their power and leadership (rescues the lion and the bear from their hand), but this is a very necessary stage for stabilizing such blessed changes. Ideology possesses a charm and force that practice sometimes cannot withstand. This is my modest contribution in several arenas, where I try to conceptualize and formulate changes that everyone already tacitly agrees to but is unwilling to admit (regarding changes in halakha, foundational thought, the attitude to democracy, and more). But even if one fails to change the ideology, that does not necessarily mean the practical change does not express a real change.
Mansour Abbas
I assume it is relatively easy for readers of this site to understand—and perhaps also identify with—my claims, in particular with the interpretation that sees practice as substantive and not merely tactical, insofar as we speak of religious Jews and Haredim. What if I propose applying this also to Arabs? Please, before you jump, try to compare the situation to what we saw so far within our own camp. What is happening outside looks very, very similar.
Most Arab citizens of Israel do not identify with the state. Their ideology is surely based on the Nakba and discrimination, on alienation and claims of inequality; there is also not insignificant support for terror and violence against the state, its citizens, and its institutions. Their connection to the Palestinians living outside Israel as a minority dictates this inevitably. A Palestinian today can hardly declare Israel a reasonable democratic state that grants its citizens reasonable treatment—even if not fully equal (just compare to what they receive in Arab countries, or under the Palestinian Authority and in Gaza). This is the declared ideology, and its guardians labor over it. Whoever speaks otherwise will be attacked and presented as a compromiser and a traitor to the “Palestinian idea” (the name of Abu Mazen’s yeshiva).
Traditionally, Arab parties do not enter coalitions, they oppose any security (and not only security) activity of the state, and the impression is that they are hostile to the state as such. Their members identify with terrorists and terror (with faint condemnations, mainly outward) and, of course, with enemy states, and so on. This is likely one of the reasons why the condition of Israel’s Arabs improves too slowly. The main reason is that those who engage in these processes are principally Jews. The Arab representatives deal with the Palestinian problem, remain ideologically pure in the opposition, and thus ignore their voters’ needs. At times one feels they have an interest in perpetuating the sense of discrimination rather than solving problems, in order to advance Palestinian politics. For some reason, they do not see themselves as obligated to enter a coalition, to shoulder the burden, and to effect change, but demand that Jews who are in the coalition solve the issues for them. When that does not happen, the easiest and most convenient (and politically-diplomatically beneficial) move is to accuse Israel of racism and discrimination.
Against this backdrop, Mansour Abbas (and a significant part of his Ra’am party) is a new and refreshing voice on the bleak map I have described. His very willingness to participate in a Zionist coalition that includes right-wing parties, to cooperate in all actions, and thereby also assume responsibility (though not yet as ministers—this is a matter of time, as with the Haredim), is highly unusual. Mansour Abbas belongs to the Islamic Movement and yet speaks in a more moderate and cooperative language, which makes it all the more surprising. He does not declare a renunciation of fundamental Palestinian ideas (statehood, right of return, discrimination, etc.), but he focuses on rescuing from the lion and the bear—that is, on improving the situation of Arab citizens of Israel—even at the price of ignoring the Israeli-Palestinian problem. During the last Gaza operation he remained a member of the coalition contrary to apocalyptic predictions from the right (that he would prevent the government from acting), even as many of his people (including uninvolved civilians) were harmed. No wonder he was harshly attacked by the guardians of the Palestinian flame (see, for example, here), yet he stood firm in an impressive way.
In my eyes this is a revolutionary novelty on our political map. No less revolutionary is that, despite ongoing prophecies that he has no electorate in the hostile Arab street—that he will not pass the electoral threshold—he consistently receives not a few votes in the Arab public. He has his four seats (far more than the extremist Balad), despite harsh attacks on him and despite the cooperation that until a year or two ago was unthinkable. It seems, therefore, that this is a broader social phenomenon in the Arab public, not merely one courageous individual. He also has not insignificant achievements. He has managed to secure substantial government budgets, to spur police and other activity addressing violence in Arab society, and more and more—things all the shouters in the other Arab parties never succeeded in doing, and which all the shouters on the right protest against.[6]
How to Interpret the Abbas Phenomenon
With respect to Abbas and Ra’am, precisely the same voices and interpretations arise as we saw regarding his Jewish counterparts (the Haredim and Ben-Gvir). His Palestinian critics (the guardians of the flame) accuse him of betraying the ideology. He himself does not deny the ideology, and explains that he is merely rescuing from the lion and the bear—and Jewish critics on the right latch onto this. Motti Kedar explains to us morning and evening that this is lip service (he shows us that Abbas and his colleagues speak differently in Arabic and Hebrew), and therefore it is the doctrine of stages and the salami method. He anchors this in written Islamic sources, in the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood and of Palestinians in general, and, of course, in quotes and decisions of the Shura Council (the Islamic “Council of Sages” of Ra’am). It sounds very persuasive, for the man knows the material and quotes scholarly citations.
But in my view exactly what happens with the Haredim and with Ben-Gvir is happening here. What I described in the previous paragraph is a one-to-one match with the picture on the Jewish side. You will not find a single element missing. There is a gap between practice and ideology; there is criticism by flame-guardians and the religious ivory tower; there are suspicions from outside that this is the doctrine of stages; and there is no denial by the representatives themselves of the ideology (apart from their practical conduct otherwise). They, too, speak differently inward and outward (in Arabic or Hebrew, as in Yiddish or Hebrew). Therefore, here too I, as someone who is quite a minor expert on Islam and the Palestinians, read the map differently from all the so-called experts.
My claim is that here, too, practice is very important, even if one can find very emphatic and rigid ideological quotations. Citations from the Shura Council and from Abbas himself (especially in the past) neither impress nor threaten me. I do not ignore them, but I take them with a grain of salt. My conclusion from the gap between practice and ideology is not that this is necessarily a doctrine of stages and a tactic, but that here, too, practice precedes ideology, and the path to changing ideology can pass only through practice. Therefore I am not impressed by the quotes (though some are correct), nor even by the fact that Abbas does not deny them and does not disavow them. We have seen this with Ben-Gvir and with Gafni. In my eyes Abbas—like Ben-Gvir, Gafni, and Avraham Shapira—is a person involved in political action and in the broader society; thus, identification with his surroundings emerges in him and in the society he represents, and it is stronger than ideology. As a coalition partner Abbas suddenly understands Israel’s security predicament and the limited options we have to address it without harming his Palestinian brethren. The lion and the bear are no longer such great villains, for he himself shares the dilemmas and decision-making. To Abbas, who sits in the room with them, you can no longer sell the claim that his coalition partners are all mass murderers for no reason.
As a thought experiment, try to imagine people assessing religious Judaism by quotations from its halakhic sources. There is no dispute about the halakhic rulings concerning the treatment of idolators, the annihilation of Amalek, the “ir hanidachat,” saving a non-Jew on Shabbat, the prohibition of granting gentiles a foothold in the Land of Israel, and certainly not their rights (e.g., not being appointed to positions of authority). The law of “lower him and do not raise him,” destroying idolatry, etc. Not to mention the attitude to LGBTQ people, women, non-Jews, or secular Jews. A religious representative cannot deny these halakhic sources, and for most (those who are not reformers like me) they are fully binding and relevant (this Torah will not be replaced). So how will the religious politician explain that, practically, he does not espouse all this? He has no choice but to say internally that we are rescuing from the lion and the bear, that our hand is not strong, and externally to issue denials (“we invented equality, democracy, and morality, and our women are daughters of kings”) and other crooked excuses he himself does not believe. The alternative is to present himself as a reformer not bound by halakha. I want to believe—and truly believe—that they mean seriously what they say outwardly, i.e., that even when our hand is strong they will not do all this. We will already be in a very different place. How will they then justify it? The gates of creativity have not been locked.
In short, despite the tendencies of “deep” thinkers and researchers who prefer to examine roots and foundational depth theories, it is more correct to examine groups precisely on the “superficial” plane—that is, by their actual conduct—and not by their theoretical ideological sources. In light of what I have described, this is, in fact, the deeper plane, for over time it will emerge and change the theories, which are actually what lies on the surface.
It follows from what I say here that double talk is an inherent feature of groups belonging to rigid ideologies, and precisely for this reason I am not perturbed by it. The way to address ideology and change it is precisely by focusing on practice and ignoring ideological quotations. They are not very important and not very influential. Of course it is advisable to try to narrow the gap, to conceptualize and embed these changes in ideology as well, but that is a difficult and painful process, and in many cases unnecessary; therefore it is not right to insist on it (cf. changing the Palestinian charter, or renouncing the idea of Greater Israel).
Implications and Conclusions
I think this is precisely the way to try to reduce the alienation between Israel’s Arab citizens and the state and Jewish society. I am not sure there will be tremendous success here, and I am quite sure the baggage will not disappear and that hostility and identification with their people outside will likely accompany us further. I also agree there is an element of the doctrine of stages here, for Abbas himself declares as much (just like Gafni and Smotrich). Nevertheless, there is a new direction here that, in my eyes, is very important to give a chance and to encourage. In any case, we have no other way to move forward on this front, and the alternatives are much worse (they have already proven themselves valueless). I also do not see what could be so bad in cooperating with and encouraging this direction. Even if Abbas brings budgets to his constituents, I do not think this will create a greater threat to the state. After all, a truly democratic state should care for equality among all its citizens. And, instrumentally, closing these gaps may improve our situation on the internal front (and perhaps consequently on the external one as well).
I am not calling for naiveté, but I am calling to open ourselves to an unconventional interpretation of the gaps and tension between ideology and practice and of double talk. It is not right to be led astray by experts, because—as Ben-Gurion said—experts are experts in what was, not in what will be. Let them continue to talk about Nakbas and discrimination and the right of return, and let us continue to try to narrow the gaps and integrate them into the work. This is, I think, a path well worth trying.
As an aside, I will only say that if you wish to vote for Ra’am in the upcoming elections, I will not tell you that this is a foolish idea. All the other parties are more of the same. You will not find any new message there, and I assure you faithfully that nothing will change after the upcoming elections compared to what has been until now. By giving a vote to Ra’am there is at least a real chance to advance one front in positive directions. True, there will be declarations about the Nakba and the Shura Council. So what? We have that today as well.
Is This Leftism?
It is hard to ignore the claim that this is classic leftist thinking. Our leftist cousins are always accused of ignoring citations and ideology and placing hopes in practice. So first of all, sometimes leftists are right (a stopped clock, etc.). Beware of ad hominem fallacies. Beyond that, leftists generally also want to make far-reaching concessions based on those hopes. A sane right, by contrast, can act in a “leftist” manner to realize those hopes, as I suggested here, but without making significant concessions—at least until we see them realized. This sounds to me like a very sober and logical way to manage things, whether you label it right or left. Names and labels really don’t matter. The two other ways are either naive (classic left) or despairing, demoralizing, and without horizon (classic right).
Connection to Notions of Teshuva
I began by noting that this column relates to the Ten Days of Repentance. The connection is in two aspects: first, the groups I described here are doing a certain kind of teshuva. They are moving from a problematic ideology toward more worthy directions—but sometimes it happens “by accident,” that is, without realizing it. Sometimes not. The second aspect concerns everyone else. They must do teshuva regarding the rigid and distrustful attitude they direct at these groups and processes. We must be prepared to accept that different groups undergo changes and that not everything is fixed and deterministic—even if their ideological discourse still lags behind their practice. I have had my fill of quotations from ideological sources purporting to prove that nothing has changed, is changing, or will change.
One’s fixation on clinging to his own ideology demands teshuva, and it is being done by the very groups I have described. But to the same extent, our fixation on clinging to the other’s ideology and not looking at his practice demands teshuva from us all. Perhaps now is an auspicious time for that.
If I may, this Yom Kippur it might be worthwhile to focus a bit less on general, stirring, theoretical declarations, and a bit more on practical changes in our conduct in the coming year and beyond. In addition, it is not always advisable to examine our practice by comparing it to ideology. Sometimes the teshuva we must do is not from practice to ideology but precisely from ideology to practice. Sometimes it is our Torah that needs to do teshuva, not we.
Gmar Chatima Tova to us all.
[1] This expression is based on various rabbinic phrases about rescuing a lost item from the mouth of a lion or a bear, but its source is already in Scripture (see, for example, 1 Samuel 17:37; Amos 3:12).
[2] In the past (see columns 90 and 330) I illustrated this through the character of Tsemach Atlas, the hero of Chaim Grade’s novel.
[3] Admittedly, there are still infuriating remnants of their crooked worldview. See, for example, an article about purchasing gentile produce during the Sabbatical year. The Haredim—who, recall, are an inseparable part of our blazing national and Zionist camp—diligently ensure the livelihood of Gaza’s farmers at the expense of Israel’s farmers. All this, of course, from fear of the “lo techonem” prohibition in the heter mechira, which could grant gentiles a foothold in the Land of Israel. There is no limit to the absurd.
[4] In column 448 I noted that, in fact, everyone understands that we have no real option to boycott the courts, and that all the halakhic discussions are pilpul, nothing more. It is hard for people to admit that in our situation halakha is not applicable; as noted, they do not go out against the ideology but simply act against it, period. Thus a façade of a quasi-halakhic discussion is created. In practice, almost all think it is forbidden, yet nevertheless go to the courts—some more, some less. From time to time a Jew like Rabbi Avraham Yosef comes out with a tasteful explanation that lawyers and judges are sinners who should not be counted in a quorum and should be ignored as if they were air (he dared say aloud what everyone thinks), and then all fall silent in embarrassment. After all, in practice he, too, like all of us, will need the courts in many cases.
[5] It seems to me the reason is that the principles for which he fights are not halakha and do not belong to the hard core of Judaism. This is a kind of ideology, and therefore it is easier to say that it is inapplicable and irrelevant today.
[6] By the way, honesty requires acknowledging that Bibi has a share in this phenomenon. He was the first to invite Abbas to his coalition, which did not come to fruition (and is now, of course, vehemently denied. Bibi, as is his way, is meticulous to fulfill the verse “He speaks truth in his heart”). That, of course, does not prevent Bibi and his friends from crying out that the last government cooperates with “parties that support terror and are not Zionist” (and no, this does not refer to Gafni’s and Litzman’s parties). Even when he finally does something positive, he denies that too and cries foul. Well, Bibi also strengthened Hamas economically and militarily and did nothing against it (except the disgraceful capitulation in the Shalit deal), and still can cry that he is Mr. Security and that they do nothing. Facts confuse no one there.
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I really enjoyed the column and its analysis. I wrote down the following important sentence: “Our direct perception of life experience is sometimes more accurate and truer than the ideological conceptualizations we make”. Congratulations on leaving the laboratory! Warm and cozy out there. Isn't it? Regarding voting, I understand the despair over the existing supply, but I fear that my previous commitment to the urban poor will in no way allow me to vote for an Arab party.
I expected that the column, and especially such sentences, would provoke comments about me. Usually I belong to those who conceptualize and act according to theory, and here I am supposedly criticizing such behavior. But that is not accurate. I am certainly attentive to situations in which reality beats theory and then this must be taken into account, and it is desirable to conceptualize and include this in theory as well, if possible. But I am talking about situations in which drifting after reality is unjustified. Beyond that, it is not true that theory has no meaning, and I did not write that here either. Behavior is a delicate game between theory and utopian models and reality, and each side in this game has an important role. Neglecting theory is no less bad, and perhaps worse, than neglecting intuitions about reality.
Regarding voting, I wrote (albeit briefly) that ordinary votes will not change anything about the poor of your city. What was is what will be. They are all the same. Whereas by voting for the Republican Party, there is a chance to change something, even on this particular front. By the way, indirectly, progress on this front is also very beneficial for the poor in your city. Reducing the gaps and feeling good is in the interest of all of us.
Speaking of repentance and the need to conceptualize the practice back into ideology, I was awakened to the thought following a study of Rabbi Tzadok's book Tiknat Shavin (Letter C), where he explicitly lays out the position of "Chassidic determinism," which is precisely where we find what I believe could be a solution to the conceptualization problem - the aforementioned method, which is presented many times in different styles in the books Hashab Emet, Pri Haaretz, Rabbi Nachman, Mei Shiloah, and others, which holds that, by and large, even a person's actions, including commandments and transgressions, are the Creator's decree, and that a person's purpose in his world (which can only be found in a context where he has a choice) is to recognize that it is the Creator who does everything, hence, for example, the sharp contrast between faith and pride and sadness, which are essentially taking credit for success and failure. When we take this as a "perspective" ideology, This directly affects the attitude towards secularists, Zionists and even the righteous. I will quote here a few sentences from the Fruit of the Land (Parashat Shofitim) after a long section of the explanation of the above position: “It is not a sin for anyone to work in this way, he loves everyone and elevates all who belong to him in value, and conversely, he who hates even the wicked, in any case, means that in his righteousness and strength he will lift up his heart and he is righteous in his own eyes, and not the one who did all this and followed all of them.” And certainly he is less and worse than all the wicked and adds strength to the shell more than all the wicked and descends lower and lower and he is angry, separating the champion who separates fear from the living, saying that it is not from the Lord and his hand has done this. After all, we have a well-organized ideological mishna, not Reform or even Literary, that places Rabbi Bonim Schreiber below Bibi (as a proverb) on the ideological scale itself!!! I know it's 180 degrees opposite from the Rabbi's theological method, but this one answers the problem much better.
A small clarification - the ideological innovation here is that a person is not measured by his actions, but by his consciousness - how much he recognizes the kingdom of God and how much his consciousness is a dwelling place in his underwear, may God be blessed, in that he does not attribute his actions (both good and bad) to himself. In such a world, seeing people in black and white does not belong, in such a world it is impossible to judge people by their external appearance and not even by the synchronization of their actions with your world of values.
Logicians have already established that contradiction and nonsense are a perfect solution to any difficulty. If you cannot criticize a person because he is not responsible for his actions and views, but you can love him for it even though he has no influence, you are blessed. If you think that you yourself have a choice in your relationship with others and only he does not – blessed. If you think that our attitude towards events is different from the events themselves (and this is also seen in the number of principles) – blessed. All of these are logical contradictions, and from logical contradiction everything is derived, of course. Forget problems from the earth.
I propose a much more effective thesis, simple and short. Assume that -2+3=-17. This will solve all the problems in the same way, and they will not have to cut down forests in Brazil to write entire books of nonsense.
First introduction: A few years ago, I studied a degree in the Middle East at university and some gossip about the Muslim Brotherhood. These were many days before the wedding with Abbas and those who taught were actually leftist lecturers. The ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood has been the system of stages for at least 100 years.
It is impossible to claim about the Muslim Brotherhood what you claim about the Haredim or about them, since the latter two are not based on a written and clear system of the system of stages that has succeeded for them throughout the Western world (many countries in Europe) and the Arab world (Egypt as an example). It is really a system and not, as you portray, a change in practice following some ideological development. The ideology remained and the practice remained (we in Israel simply were not exposed to it until now).
I completely disagree. This is exactly the claim of the experts that I do not agree with. Even if this has been their method since forever, it does not mean that there is no change now. It is a fact that others do not act like Abbas. Beyond that, ours is also a completely written method. And even older than theirs.
Rabbi Levi Yitzhak is jealous of you.
I actually became convinced over time that in the matter of the State of Israel (and not the modern state), the Haredim were right. This is not really the state of the Jews. This is the state of all its officials (the progressives). They will be willing to do anything to dominate other people. And if it is impossible over gentiles (Dreyfus. Assimilated ones), then let's find sucker Jews to dominate under the guise of false nationalism. Whatever it looks like, it seems that those who have no loyalty to God (fear of God) also have no loyalty to the Jewish people. They have loyalty to themselves and that's it, and in that name they will also be willing to defend the State of Ishmael. So not only is the left disloyal, but also the secular right (even the Shikels) and the liberal religious public. The army exists for them for personal and professional advancement and that's it. Possibly the traditional right too. So there is no point in serving in the army. Even for right-wingers, it only strengthens the rule of foreigners (the left) over us. The Haredim (their leaders) already understood this when the state was established. I'm only now realizing this (and I should have realized it when I found out about the opposition to amending the Law of Return for Jews according to Halacha).
And this post is proof of that. The man votes for the party of our enemies. Even after the Holocaust, he still has faith in Gentiles and thinks that their anti-Semitism depends on our behavior towards Gentiles. In what world does he think it's right to give equal rights to this public of criminal barbarism and evil (the Arabs) who proved our hostility to us in riots and precisely after Ra'am was about to enter the coalition for the first time (and by a public represented by them - the Bedouins). I don't understand that the nicer he is, the more they will interpret it as weakness. They value national loyalty and will despise him for his disloyalty to his brothers. It's interesting that he has claims about the lies and truths of Bibi and the Likud, even though the ones who invented the lie (there is no objective reality. What doesn't work out isn't absorbed into the consciousness) are the left in general. Same with the Arabs. They have no reality at all. They don't perceive a reality that doesn't work out for them at all (for the left, it also only exists ideologically). And they are even worse because they are like animals and have no free choice in it at all. When the right finally learned the rules of this game, suddenly it was called out. God forbid they succeed in this game. After all, the father of the world's crooks is Bennett, but for that, Rabbi Michi has good excuses. Everything is kosher to bring down Netanyahu. He has claims against Bibi's supporters (Bibists), but they are the majority of the Jewish people in the country. I wonder when the left will actually join the enemies of the Jewish people. He considers Yedioth and Maariv newspapers to be objective. Why not. Just hatred of Israel. He doesn't mind budgets made from Jewish money that go to enemies, crime, and evil (right-wing scumbags).
Emmanuel, I was surprised that you weren't the first to jump in with the usual slogans that you have to issue and that completely ignore what I write and don't address it at all.
I did indeed debate whether to respond at all. It took me a whole day (when I read the article there was only one response) to decide that there was a point in it. It's a wonder that advertising companies haven't yet come after me with the ability to distribute my passwords. It seems to me that distributing my passwords is the rabbi's permanent motto. At least my passwords are original. Maybe for once the rabbi will try to think about how I came to these conclusions? Why do I think that way? The connection to our article is that there is no importance to life here in this country and the integration of the ultra-Orthodox in society if this is not a country that serves the Jewish people. And someone who cares about Arabs (!) at the expense of Jews (remind you, you who are in favor of “confirmative action”) cannot be said to care about the Jewish people.
One comment: "New angles of thought, a broad perspective, and original thinking" are not really the characteristics of Rabbi Bonim Schreiber, but of his brother Rabbi Yossel, who is indeed not busy spouting such nonsense.
Rabbi Bonim Schreiber has been busy in recent years rebuilding the classical form of the abraham, which is quite crumbling due to his incessant preaching of asceticism, fasting, and speech, and so his attack on this subject is part of a whole set of values that he is trying to promote.
The idea itself in the article is certainly correct and enlightening in relation to the Haredi public as a whole, but I am afraid that for the Yeshivah's ivory tower, the things come as a distant rumor and not always based on my intention that this is not necessarily reflected in the aggressive essays that are published from time to time.
And again: a wonderful idea and important for life in general. Best wishes
I was talking about his erudition.
It seems to me – “Marom Gili” – These things are supposed to be new and refreshing, but unfortunately there is nothing new in them. The new is not new and the old is well known. I find it a bit jarring, as a Jew, may God have mercy on him, the covert and overt mockery of the Torah scholars (and this is the writer's right by virtue of being a person with freedom of choice, or being programmed for this – the voter will choose the definition that pleases him) a bit jarring, but this is probably my mental problem. Perhaps as a former atheist (atheist on a shoestring) and a person who currently leads a religious lifestyle, it seems to me that the column's musings do find a place for sanity. It seems to me that one should disavow the people and refer to opinions and actions in practice in the present and their impact on the near future (the ancients said, “and accept the truth from the one who said it” or as Chazal taught us who were not born in the enlightened 20th century, “where it is, there it is”) when the emphasis is on what is said, not the one who says it. I do not know to what extent the writer believes in the things he writes (I am too young to know the consciences of sophisticated amoebas like us), but there is no doubt that he writes from an interior and a place of truth, and for that he deserves appreciation. I will comment with your permission, sometimes even the great Torah scholars are right, and if you will, mistakenly, but it is a common mistake, even though they are absent from the “great world” that the Enlightenment created for us in the nations born on the charming continent of Europe.
With a final greeting, a good signature (assuming that the writer and readers believe that there is indeed a Creator, Judge and Judge…)
Thank you for the article/column.
I agree that there is a parallel between Ben Gvir/Smotritz and Abbas in this sense of the double game between ideology and practice, except that with Smotritz the gap between ideology and reality is much narrower than with Abbas. After all, if Abbas and his fellow Islamic movement members believe that there is a commandment to murder any Jew and you will also be granted Paradise, etc. Therefore, in practice, you will not hear from them condemnations of terrorism, but words like "we are against violence of any kind," but they will never defend the ideology. This is not the case with Smotritz. His ideology also does not demand the murder of any Arab, and there is no commandment in this, and also regarding the Jewish state. Smotritz does say that this is his plan, but he explicitly says this on the assumption that the majority of the people as a whole will want it. In other words, Smotritz does not hide his positions and he openly says to the outside world that his plans are destined to come true, only that now he understands that he is a minority and does not have the moral right (not just disunity/technical) to impose his way of life and his will on the entire people. What is not true with Abbas is that his opinions are too contrary to reality, so that is why he discourages many more people than the people, but definitely. Agree that there is a parallel, there is only a difference in the intensity of the gaps.
I disagree in my opinion. Factual: If you take Halacha as Smotrich's ideology, the distance is no longer so small (Smotrich is supposed to be in favor of killing Sabbath desecrators, losing Jewish homes, not allowing foreigners to live in Israel, and more). Substantive: But this distance, even if it is large, really doesn't matter much. It is a product of the difference between ideology and reality. In the end, reality is stronger.
But Abbas' ideology also includes doing it today, and Smotrich's ideology is waiting for the Sanhedrin.
See the column there.
In my humble opinion, I have the impression that there are two contradictory, opposing processes here. One is the tendency to be practical and pragmatic, which brings Abbas and Ben-Gvir closer from the extremes to the center, but on the other hand, the intensification of the opposition from their own camps to this process. It seems to me that you are actually optimistic about this matter. Personally, it is very difficult for me to accept this optimistic approach when I see the mud that is poured on the heads of all those who dare to say something pragmatic and logical that does not conform to the "line". And that we will end up in a good place on Judgment Day.
You missed the point. The more the mud reaches the extremists, the more it indicates success and the growing concern of the extremists about it. Look at how many supporters vote for Ben Gvir and Abbas. This indicates that there is a broad public that follows them and supports them despite the mud. The mud is awakening because of this, and it is the reason for my optimism. Just like with Rabbi Bonim.
Here are the ones you're going to vote for that aren't exactly "moderate":
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3533001
They sent me this this morning and I was really not impressed. This is again the same fallacy of relying on ideology instead of looking at the actions.
I read a little about Qaradawi today, and he is truly a very impressive person. A very important Muslim leader and arbiter on a global scale of many, many millions, and surprisingly, it turned out that he is also moderate. He is in favor of the advancement of women, opposes terrorism (he called for the extradition of the terrorists of the Twin Towers), and so on and so forth. It is worth reading the entire entry on him on Wikipedia.
It is true that in all of this, he also supports terrorism against Israel. From our perspective, this is the whole picture and it is impossible to ignore it, but from the perspective of a regular Muslim, this is a small detail within it that does not change the big picture. Think about a situation in which the Maimonides, or a thinker and leader of immense stature, also supports terrorism against the citizens of Spain because of the expulsion (or, for example, supports the killing of Amalekites, including babies, and a few other halachic details that exist here). Do you think the other rabbis would not eulogize him? By the way, these two supported the kidnapping of a child from his parents, an act of terrorism in every sense. Rabbi Lior announced that Goldstein is a saint of the highest order. So do you think other rabbis will not eulogize him after 120? Do you think Ben Gvir would not eulogize Rabbi Kahane if he had died today?
When you eulogize a personality, it does not mean that you agree with all of their statements. Rabbis eulogized the Satmar Rebbe and R’ Amram Blau, despite strongly opposing their policies and views. They spoke of their devotion to Torah and leadership. This is exactly what Abbas said about Qaradawi, about his devotion to Islam and leadership. Abbas did not support terrorism but eulogized the person, and this is completely understandable when a leader of such stature walks. I am not at all moved by this. This is exactly the fallacy to which I dedicated the column. When we cling to statements instead of looking at actions. Abbas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood world and this forces a certain discourse on him (of his own free will). But there is a gap between the declarations and ideology and the actual actions. Your actions will bring you closer and your actions will distance you.
And another important point. All Palestinians and in fact almost all Muslims think that we are a militaristic people who dispossess the Palestinians of their land and murder them. I completely disagree, but it is a fact. I assume that Abbas thinks so too, and therefore in his eyes this terrorism is not as morally wrong as it seems to us. I of course disagree with him, but we must understand that in his opinion such statements are not so serious. Now go back to my example with Maimonides, who encouraged terrorism against the citizens of Spain because of the expulsion. Is it not possible to understand this?
Abbas's argument with Qaradawi is on the practical level, because he lives here and Qaradawi does not. But for me the practical level is what is important. Even if a person thinks that way about us, if he lives with us and acts together, he will moderate himself and understand that reality is different. He understands very well that his coalition members are not bloodthirsty murderers. This will not translate so quickly into ideology, but it sinks in and has an impact.
So you're basically saying they're enemies and you have no problem voting for them?
The question is how you define an enemy. Even someone who thinks I'm dispossessing him is not necessarily an enemy. It depends on whether he's ready to move forward with a life together or if he's just fighting me. That's exactly the difference between ideology and statements and practice.
On the 11th of Tishrei 1933 (49 years since the disillusionment with the ‘Conception’)
In the article: ‘Mansour Abbas’s strategic plan to combat Zionism through politics was revealed’ (Channel 7 website, 19 Elul 1972) excerpts from the ‘Islamic Charter’ approved in September 2018 at the ‘Southern Faction’ conference (where Mansour Abbas was elected chairman of the Palestinian National Authority).
There it is clearly stated that the integration of the GNA into Israeli politics is intended to promote: a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza with Jerusalem as its capital, the return of refugees to the territories of the State of Israel and national, civil and religious rights for Arabs in the territory of the State of Israel.
This means: in addition to a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, millions of Arab refugees will be flown into the State of Israel, which is shrinking within the borders of 1967, and will be entitled to 'national, civil and religious rights'.
These are the declared goals of the GNA!
Best regards, Mr. Informansky
It is clear that a coalition of Jewish parties will not give Abbas his full wish, but a coalition that strives for a ’two-state solution for two peoples’ (as Lapid declared at the UN) will find in Abbas an enthusiastic partner.
If Abbas were to join a right-wing government – his demands would be much lower. But if a situation were created in which a left-wing government relies on the Arab vote – then a race towards a Palestinian state would begin.
Best regards, Sham”y
Sh”l Shalit”a, it's already hard for me to hold back a bit, so forgive me for writing these things now.
In most cases, I don't respond to your messages, because they mainly contain nuances of language and very few arguments. And even when there are arguments, they are not always related to the discussion and relate to it.
What you see in your words here is a clear example of something that looks like an argument but is not.
If for some reason you can't see it, then I will explain briefly. In the column, I stated precisely that their ideology has not changed, and I explained why in my opinion it is wrong to take ideology too seriously and it is more important to see the practice. Just for comparison, even in the ”ultra-Orthodox Covenant” it says that they are in politics to save from the lion and the bear. So it says.
Mansour Abbas certainly wants a Palestinian state, and I assume he also wants Jerusalem as the capital. As far as I understand, all the Palestinians want this. And by the way, I don't see it as wrong. It's his right to want it, certainly as long as he doesn't aspire to destroy us but to give us life. But one way or another, I explained in the column that this is not the subject of the discussion. The question is what he actually does, not what he wants. For example, I asked why he didn't overthrow the government when he was operating in Gaza? After all, his purist friends told him, "If not for such a time as this, you have arrived at the kingdom."
But you ignore the entire discussion and continue to spout slogans and sources, when the entire column is intended to explain why citing sources is irrelevant. Maybe you disagree and think that it is relevant, and that is completely legitimate. So write and explain it. But just citing more sources is an irrelevant discussion.
And more generally. Your writing style has already provoked comments here on the site that it is trolling, and if I didn't know Mr. I would agree with these assessments. But I know Mr. means well.
Therefore, I will conclude with a request: I would be happy if from now on you would endeavor to ensure that your language refinements illuminate relevant arguments and not take their place. And please make sure that the arguments relate to the body of the discussion and do not repeat irrelevant claims over and over again.
Good conclusion.
You are asking, with all seriousness and good faith, that we "may the refinements of language illuminate substantive arguments." How optimistic of you! Bless you!
To Ramda”a – Hello,
‘The Islamic Convention’ that the R”M received in 2018, is not ‘the Damascus Road’. The ideal aspiration is that the entire world will accept Islam and non-Muslims have a place only as ’protégés’.
However, this is an operative plan, which does not de jure declare the abolition of the State of Israel, but leads to a situation in which the Jewish state will collapse on its own. With borders that are not defensible and when millions of Arabs are poured into it who receive ‘national rights’ – then the Jews are left with only a limited ghetto. After all, even ‘between Gedera and Hadera’ There will be many autonomous Arab concentrations.
But the plan, as I mentioned, could have an immediate significance: joining a government that will advance the ‘two-state solution’, as Lapid declared at the UN.
In the current government, the Ra”m de facto promoted the Arab autonomy plan, by wholesale legalizing illegal construction and connecting it to electricity. The ‘right of return’ was promoted by agreements to bring in thousands of Arabs from Israel under the guise of ‘family reunification’. Of course, the Ra”m has an interest in maintaining a government that plays into their hands.
Best regards, Shmaryahu Informansky
The reader will find a wealth of material on Mansour Abbas's worldview and the ties of the 'Islamic Movement' to Hamas and the 'Muslim Brotherhood' in the articles of Jonathan Duhoch Halevi on the 'Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and Policy' website (and in an interview with him on the 'Mida' website).
For distinctions between Mansour Abbas's approach and that of Qaradawi, see Pinchas Anbari's article, 'How Will Qaradawi's Death Affect the 'Muslim Brotherhood', on the 'Zman Israel' website.
With greetings for the occasion of joy, Shama
This is exactly the enemy. But what is his interest in practice? Money. He represents an unproductive and criminal society and wants to sell its fingers in the Knesset in exchange for budgets (which will ultimately go to criminal organizations). What is our interest in this whole story? The citizens' money is not important? You hate Netanyahu so much for going with the Haredim that you are willing to go with the Arabs who suffer from everything that the Haredim suffer from and are also our enemies? This is simply a mental illness.
And if you just want peace from the Arabs (Israelis), then you simply surrender to protectionism. What's the point of them integrating into society? Do you want to hand out weapons to them that will one day be turned against us? The IDF exists to protect the people of Israel. Not the State of Israel. Do you want resources to be directed at them at the expense of your Jewish brothers? What's the logic?
In the wake of Purim, there will be a year of redemptive pragmatism
In light of the general vision of moderation, one should look with optimism to the following scenario: the moderate Ben Gvir will expel only the extremist Muslims who aspire to eliminate the Jewish state here and now. With the expulsion of the Islamic extremists, Mansour Abbas will be able to influence the moderate "silent majority" of the Arab population with his moderation.
Then the process of moderation of the Haredi society will also intensify, since a state whose Arab citizens are full partners in power has gone beyond being a Zionist state that provokes nations. The growing partnership of Abbas and the leaders of the "Shura Council" will prevent progressive legislation and encourage the preservation of tradition in the public sphere. Alongside the hijab-wearing TV presenters, their Jewish counterparts who are content with a head covering will also be accepted. When the country becomes less secular, it will also be more accepted in ultra-Orthodox circles. And so everyone will be happy.
All the Sabbath days of the monotheistic religions will be honored in our country, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Merav Michaeli will call for the shutdown of vehicles and cars on the three Sabbath days, and boys and girls will ride their bikes freely on the roads and highways. Everyone will work hard four days a week, and will rejoice with their families on the three days of rest. Not only the ultra-Orthodox and Abrechs will grow in Torah, because all Jews will have three whole days to invest in growing in Torah. Blessed are the nations that have such a day.
With best wishes for a successful signature, Matanya Hai Kimelman-Shiloh
On the eve of the Jewish New Year, 2017
The gap between ‘ideology’ and pragmatism does not necessarily indicate the abandonment of grand ambitions and acceptance of ‘what is’. Rather, there is an understanding here that guiding processes requires time and a great deal of patience. ’ideology’ outlines the distant goal, while pragmatism allows progress towards the desired goal in small steps, slowly but surely.
Best regards, Matanya Hai Kimelman-Shiloh
The insight that ’repentance preceded the world’, that the world and man were not created whole and perfect, but rather go on and on, fall and rise – is what allows the believer to patiently accept the flaws of the ’here and now’ out of faith and confidence that they are marching towards a better future.
Best regards, Mahsh”k
In response to ‘Big ambitions and small steps’, line 2
… Understanding that process maturation requires…
In the month of Dakpuri, there will be a year of great actions
Even in religious Zionist circles that mandated cooperation with distant lands in order to build the people and the land, they insisted on caution not to be dismissive of them and bend the values of the Torah to the secular view.
Thus wrote the Grand Master Soloveitchik (Five Sermons, p. 30), that one should learn from Abraham, who took his two boys with him on the way to Mount Moriah, but when he ascended the mountain, he left them "with the donkey," as if to say to them: "In matters of the material we accept your advice, but in all that concerns the spirit, we preserve our unique spirit."
Although it is clear that we alone, without the secularists, would not have succeeded in establishing the state, we cannot be partners with them in everything. And when it comes to marital laws, education, observing the Sabbath, forbidden foods, rabbinate and teaching, or “who is a Jew?” Here we say to the “boys,” “Go back to your donkey,” in all endeavors we cooperate with you, but there are no compromises regarding the “place that God has told him.”
Rabbi Soloveitchik does add that retirement is not the end of the road: The retirement is not for the sake of separation but “so far”, but eventually we will return to you and lift you up too 0His words were quoted from Rabbi Yaakov Filber's article, ‘Sit here with the donkey – Is it better to be unique or together?’, on the ‘Kippa’ website)
With blessings, Brother Petyahu Klausenburger
Like this, Rabbi Kook said that the ideal is ‘Tsev”R’ where the righteous lead, but also in a situation of ‘Rav”tz’ where the distant ones lead – We are commanded not to leave but to help and lead, in some way, to spiritual correction.
This is what Ramat-Gan Mayor Avraham Krinitzi said, who heard from the rabbi that our generation is like an old man who forgot the alphabet and was made to sit with children in a ’Haider’ to relearn the alphabet. The old man also began to integrate into the games of his child friends and their responses. And here the teacher remarked to him that although you are studying with children, you are an adult and not a child.
Even we who have forgotten do not run a state and an army, etc. – need to learn this from them But we must not forget that we are the ‘elder among the nations’ who taught humanity faith and values, and therefore in this we must continue to be leaders and not trailing.
With best wishes, Afek
If the “steps” and practical repentance appear the same from the outside, how can we tell them apart? It is wrong to believe that Abbas is “repenting” just because it is possible.
There are no unambiguous criteria. There are various impressions and indications. I have written about some of them. In any case, it is definitely important to be careful and take into account that there could also be a mistake. Therefore, it is not worth taking high risks. In any case, this is not about any significant risk.
As usual, on a logical level, your words are logical and convincing, even (not on us) the part about Ra'am.
Also in reference to the manifesto, there is indeed a similarity in the practical aspect between the movements as you described. And from an intellectual point of view, I agree.
Similar things, by the way, can be heard from Micha Goodman, who compares the Haredim and Ra'am and describes the gap that exists between the two between dreams and pragmatism. And how interesting, it is precisely among the most Haredim (Jews and Muslims) that practical pragmatism can be found.
As usual, you attribute crucial importance to reason. When it comes to emotional matters and concerns, pills should be given and they have no place.
In my opinion, the statements are drawn to sectoral affiliation. And affiliation to a certain sector (there are also studies on this) is ultimately emotional and not rational. Therefore, the average person's choice will be overwhelmingly group-based and based on emotion.
Few, who have the power of “radical listening” (also a concept I heard from Goodman) will read your article and be convinced.
Fear (which is quite justified, to be honest) is what overcomes the “ultra-Orthodox”, so your words sound like a provocation to those ears.
Your words, as usual, are thought-provoking. But it will probably take many more years before they are internalized (if at all).
It's okay to use the G.M. to try to remove Benjamin Netanyahu.
What Bibi and Arab culture in general have in common is the lack of any value for truth. Truth is a marginal and unimportant detail in life, a lie is legitimate in every respect. You can overturn it again and again according to convenience, interest and desire.
It's hard to draw conclusions about normal social processes there, and certainly not to parallel the processes in Haredi society. You can try, but take into account that everything can turn upside down there.
Even the best friends and neighbors were slaughtered in the riots of 1989.
In the meantime, you can use the G.M. with caution. Like a broken reed. Also because otherwise, he will use them, and he has no limits.
https://fb.watch/g1HWmLECTB/
Here is an excellent demonstration of the tension between ideology and practice, and also of the meaning of the eulogy for Qaradawi.
Miki.
I think there is a difference from the end between Bin Gvir and the Haredim and the rest of our extremists and the extremists from Islam and the Arab public.
And it is that Jewish law. Even in the most fundamentalist interpretation, it recognizes the gap between reality and realization.
The attitude towards seculars, for example. As those who raise them up and do not lower them. And also try to bring them closer in the ways of Noam was already determined by the Chazon Ish. And already the Orthodox split from the other communities in the 19th century. And the reasoning for this claim is itself pragmatic: as long as there were a few seculars and I am religious like Spinoza. There was no problem in upholding the principle of the law in them. Since secularism gained momentum, treating so many people this way. Will not yield positive results, will cause distancing, will provoke corruption of the world, and will cut them off forever from the source of life.
And so it is with women. I am not a great scholar and do not remember all the sources by heart. But it can be said that as long as society was primitive, and everyone accepted the obvious division that a woman is a daughter of a king, and is only a tool to help her husband. Everyone lived with this in peace, and no woman saw it as an insult. I think every Haredi would agree that if they started treating their women in this way, literally, as someone whose role is to take care of a man and has no purpose in itself, and she is also not allowed to have her own occupations. Society would collapse because no one would accept this. The matchmaking market and the institution of marriage declined (and I also think that the treatment of women in the sources is much less unambiguous and is really open to broad interpretation, unlike the treatment of villages or those who have violated the prohibition of sexual intercourse with a man).
The same is true of the Gentiles. After all, the law has always been not ashamed to say that in principle the life of a Gentile who has not reached his ideal state (7 commandments of the sons of Noah, a resident, etc.) is not really important. Since even on the Day of Judgment, it is forbidden in principle for a Jew to save him from death. Or to help him. And if you always put an asterisk on the side: as long as you help him because of fear of hostility. That anger will not arise against the Jews and cause conflict, this is fine. And everyone will admit that today, applying such laws in practice will cause conflict, instability and hostility towards the Jews.
The point is that I am not sure that this principle of holding on to an ideal wholeheartedly and not apologizing exists in Islam. While it is worth recognizing that in the current reality, for pragmatic reasons, it is not necessary and impossible to apply that principle.
It exists everywhere. The question is not of religion, Islam or Judaism, but of the people. Just as we and they have more and less pragmatic ones.
With us too, all the rulings you mentioned were born from the field and not from theoretical sources. There is no fundamental difference.
I don't think that's the point. Even if there is no pragmatic principle in Islam, a principle in the sense of an abstract idea or model, there is still a certain practice on the ground. Conscious or not. The suggestion here is to pay close attention to that practice and its impact.
The big mistake.
As a rule, the analysis is accurate, the practice moderates and so on.
But that doesn't mean that the moderate practice is not dangerous and problematic for the State of Israel.
Even the relatively compromising Haredi practice is a practice that harms both the Haredi public at home and the State of Israel.
Whether it's the rabbinate, and whether it's the attitude towards the Chief Rabbinate, and whether it's conversion, and Shabbat prayer, and budgets that fund idleness, and so on.
So yes, it is indeed compromising in relation to the rigid ideology.
Well, so what, it's also harmful.
The same is exactly true for the R.E.M.
Its joining does moderate and almost seems magical.
Except that it contains so much damage of the same kind.
Security operations that will depend on Walid Taha, and internal pressures, funds that will be directed to Salafi Islamic revival, and there are probably many more examples that I am simply not aware of.
Are we able to contain this damage?
Does it outweigh the benefits? I am not sure.
Thanks for the excellent article
No one knows what the future holds. But moderation is always better than the current situation. If you wait for perfection, you will never progress. So the reasonable policy is to invest in these directions without taking too many risks. In my opinion, this is the situation today, at least with respect to the RA”M.
Well, in Oslo they also tried to convince us that Arafat's words in Arabic are nothing more than lip service that travels from a gap between ideology and reality, and that his actual actions are what are supposed to be evidence of his goals (and who could have imagined until then that a Palestinian leader and Jewish statesmen would be partners at the negotiating table, etc., etc., and all the other such nonsense). I hope that Ra'am will not have enough political power to prove that this regret remains the same regret as Arafat proved that it is regret.
I am glad that probably on this issue, as usual, your voice of reason will remain lonely (although on other issues I have many agreements with you) and no one will listen to these nonsense.
Mikhi.
How can you say that this pragmatism grew only from below. From circumstances?.
I don't think that's true.
You are a scholar. You know Torah. And I don't have much memory. Or Torah knowledge. Certainly not at the level of a T.H.
Only the basics.
But from the basics that I do remember.
Then all the pragmatic halakhic precedents are explicitly found in the Talmud.
And everyone agrees, from the greatest Jewish Fomandelist to the most open modern. At least at the level of declaration. Through ruling and action. That the halakhic. When it changes in circumstances, it changes because of precedents from the Talmud, the Mishnah, the Gemara, the first and last.
Precedents. That are created because of a clash of values or principles of the halakhic itself.
After all, in the earlier halacha it is written that an apostate is removed from Israel, not raised. And in the original halacha it is also written that this halacha does not apply to a baby who was taken captive to the Gentiles. And in the earlier halacha there is a distinction between an apostate and a convert to anger. And between a convert to appetite.
Therefore, the dispute regarding them stems only from the very question of what the secularists are. Apostates and converts to anger or most of them are babies who were taken captive and converted to appetite.
There are supposedly several principles. According to my superficial understanding of things: the obligation to enforce every Jew to keep the Torah and the commandments. And the punishment of those who do not keep them - the sinner and the wicked. And there is the principle of the importance of the life of a Jew. Even if he sins and does not fulfill his duty. Therefore, as soon as a Jew sins intentionally and deliberately out of wickedness, he must be punished and not sent away. In other words, there is no value in the life of the wicked intentionally. And in principle, I think that every Tzvi will agree with this. And that in principle everyone will be forced to admit. From my children, for example, to the head of the Haredi community. That if a Jew arises who says: I know my rabbi and intend to rebel against him - we are forced as believers not to support him, not to host him, and not to have any contact with him. Unless there is a chance that he will return. And all the bringing of hearts together is from the premise that even the anti-religious secularist of our day does not know the Lord of the world. And does not act intentionally.
There is indeed a disagreement between publics from different backgrounds about how much modernity and pragmatism are influential in cases of wine (such as the attitude towards dialogue with the Reformers, whose leaders are not captive babies, but on the other hand it is clear that they do not intend to intentionally anger with evil intent). In relation to Gentiles, I think it is the same point: even the most gentile-hating Tzvi will admit that a resident who has reached human and religious integrity is commanded to be revived and no harm should be done to him. That his life has value even on a moral level. And even the most human-loving Tzvi will admit that there is no equality between the value of a Gentile's life and the life of an Israeli. And that in principle, we should not support or initiate medical treatment or save their lives if they are not under our control. Which is not the case in Israel.
The same applies to the people of the lands. Like me, for example. I don't think that even the most "traditional noble savage" enthusiast, and the greatest Israelite from the Beit Midrash, Rabbi Kook, would recommend his daughter to marry me. On the other hand, even the greatest mocker and condescending person regarding the people of the lands would not issue a ruling that would say that they are forbidden to pray in the local synagogue. To donate to it in charity. Or to be a public servant in it because they have not reached a high scholarly level.
In the relationship between the sexes, there are again detailed laws and great precedents. The discussion begins with the prohibition of incestuous contact, according to what I remember because of the verse from which the prohibition of touching a woman's vagina is deduced. And from there, I have given a halakhic. If I am not mistaken, how serious the contact is when it is not a touch of affection. And again, if all the poskim admit that kissing cheeks or hugging between members of different sexes, as well as sexual intercourse, is forbidden. And on the other hand, almost all of them admit that shaking hands in certain circumstances, or talking for the purpose of studying/studying/conversing a lesson/work, is permitted in certain cases.
In all the text here, I would like to point out an important point in conclusion. I think that what makes Jewish pragmatism possible is not the quality of religious moderation, or broad-mindedness, but that from the beginning Judaism requires a sharp mind and enormous intellectual wealth. Anyone who wants to advance in religious piety, to be a scholar and a God-fearer, will necessarily have to develop the ability to see issues from several different and strange angles. To analyze, connect, and separate them. And this is what grows. Again, in my humble opinion. Great pragmatic ability. What I do not find in Islam or Christianity. Where the texts are from my study and comparison with the pages of the Gemara. This is a very great superficiality and simplification. It is difficult to deduce complex statements from there. Therefore, I do not expect a Muslim cleric to be able to reach positions of “truth and instability” like yours, for example. Because of cultural and religious differences.
And here is the difference in my opinion on a principled level between types like Ben Gvir for example. Or types like Marzel and Gopstein. It is true that they tend to be simplistic and fundamentalist. But the written word. The caveat. Will never let them take that tendency to one side too far. They can praise Goldstein. Call for the killing of rioters and terrorists even without trial. Pressure the state to encourage initiating a covert social boycott. And so on. But they will not call on people to go out and initiate just the murder of Arabs in the street. Even if in their opinion every Arab is likened to a person from the people like Kahane. Because they know that in real reality without an army or a strong government that initiates this - it will cause more harm than good. And there is no halachic permission for such provocation.
The Talmud is indeed binding, but it too cannot invent things. When a law is presented without a source, like all those you mentioned, it is the result of influences from circumstances. And indeed, one can learn from the Talmud that reality has a status. There is no fundamental difference from what happens in Islam.
It is very difficult for me to understand what the diagnosis is based on, according to which “Haredi is slowly slipping out of the hands of its ideological politokrs” and ”the public is moving in the right direction”. It seems that there is no dispute about the facts: the language is becoming more extreme, the stories about studying at university or being drafted into the army are a fake built on forgeries, the vote for Haredi parties in areas populated by Haredis is 98%. Nothing measurable is moving, and if it is moving, it is in a direction that is more closed off, more hateful and more harmful.
Do extremist statements like Rabbi Schreiber's show the opposite: that he is in distress and the flock is escaping from his hands? In my opinion, this is very weak evidence. There were also extremist statements among Neturi Karta 60 years ago, and today the Haredi public dances to the tune of those statements and even tries to surpass them. What tangible fact shows any positive change among the Haredim? I don't see a single one. Quite the opposite.
Now, your diagnosis may be based on personal acquaintance, which I assume is much more comprehensive than mine, and yet, it is ultimately an impression that is biased by its very nature.
Of course, this is an impression, but it is certainly clear to me. Things are completely moving. There are voices that you would not have heard before, about the participation of women in politics, about treating sexual abuse, conscription is already quite legitimate for a significant part of the public (without going into your claim that quantitatively it is fake. I am not at all sure) and of course also academic studies, art, social criticism and the like. There are masses of expatriates, forums of expatriates, amazing rabbinical opinions on the appropriate and inclusive treatment of those who have left (which used to be a shiva meeting and a tear). You hear the extremist voices that are the reaction to these changes, and in my opinion this only strengthens the thesis. Haredi society is very diverse today and has a modern periphery in significant numbers.
By the way, Nauri Karta's hysteria was also a reaction to the success of Zionism and the surrender of the Haredi mainstream. Therefore, this is really not an example of contradiction.
As an ultra-Orthodox member of one of the groups mentioned in this response (the one from the forums), I can say that it is disconnected from reality to levels that are difficult to describe.
Rabbi Elyakim Schlesinger Shlita writes in his memoirs that the Brisker Rabbi Zalela said regarding elections that if he puts one of us in the Knesset, well, but as soon as he gets in there, he is no longer one of us. Apparently, in this regard, you are a Brisker, only you demand it for praise.
completely.
Schreiber in his time what is good