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The Third Identity (Column 500)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

This coming Shabbat, an essay of mine—based on Lesson 10 in the series “Innovation, Conservatism, and Tradition”—will be distributed in synagogues and online, and will also be included in the Makor Rishon newspaper. Following that lesson, several listeners asked me to publish and circulate a summary because of its importance and timeliness. The festive column before you—the 500th on this site—is a refined summary of that lesson.

The column appears here in the usual site format, but I have also attached a PDF of the designed booklet beforehand, so anyone who wishes can read it there or of course print it.

I would be grateful if each of you would share the essay (as a link and/or as a file) far and wide by any means—Facebook, WhatsApp, and other media. One can agree that this discussion is very important and necessary, regardless of the identity one chooses for oneself and regardless of agreement with my claims.

Naturally, everyone is invited to respond in the comments at the end, as is customary on our site.

Click here to download the booklet

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הורד

The Third Identity

An Ideological–Political Manifesto (but decidedly not partisan) on Identity and Ideology

  • Why does the modern-religious identity have no political expression, even though it has quite a few supporters?
  • Is this connected to the fact that the line dividing camps in the religious world is drawn precisely on the question of one’s attitude to Zionism?
  • Is that line still relevant?

Prologue

Not long ago, an unknown chapter of The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry was found in the Bodleian Library in Oxford. It tells of the Little Prince’s visit to the State of Jacob on the ten-thousandth Independence Day of its founding. “What are you arguing about all the time?” he asked in wonder when he saw groups of gray-haired people arguing on every street corner. On the clothes of half of them was a black emblem, and on the other half—a white one. “We, the black-haired and the white-haired, are divided over whether the State of Jacob should be established,” they answered. “But it has existed for ten thousand years already, and it seems you all relate to it in exactly the same way,” the Prince wondered. The blacks explained to him: “No one is willing to betray the education they received, the foundational values of their group, and the role models on which they were raised. As blacks we are obligated to oppose the whites,” and of course, the whites said the reverse.

Over the years—the Prince discovered—after everyone’s hair, black and white alike, faded and turned gray, hesitant voices of citizens occasionally arose suggesting they define themselves differently. Not as “blacks” or “whites” (since in practice there were no longer such people), but as “greens.” This is no wonder, he told himself, for after the State of Jacob has been established, it is far more important to care for vegetation than for the hair color of its citizens. But this, he learned, greatly frightened the elders of both the black and white communities. Both feared that the new and sensible idea would take root in citizens’ hearts and many would abandon the sacred path of generations. “The Holy One, blessed be He, placed counsel in the heart of each,” and “they all agreed as one” (Megillah 9a): instead of abolishing the futile polemics between blacks and whites, they decided to intensify them even more. That way, every citizen would understand the importance of clinging to their original identity, black or white, and fight for it without betraying their values and their camp. The blacks would adhere even more to their blackness and the whites to their whiteness, and thus the green identity would be cast aside in a corner as an unwanted utensil, with no need to fight it. An external enemy, they all understood, silences every internal quarrel and rebellion.

Immediately, stirring anthems were composed, platforms and ideas were updated, campaign materials were prepared, soldiers were enlisted, and the battle commenced. The blacks explained that the whites were accursed heretics, and the whites declared that the blacks were absolute apikorsim. Both sides founded parties, formed coalitions, shouted in the squares, waved “the teachings of our rabbis in which we were raised,” and so on. Needless to say, the success of the new-old policy was tremendous: the green thoughts that had sprouted here and there in people’s hearts disappeared entirely. Many citizens perhaps remained “green” at home but were black-and-white in public, and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad. This of course astonished our little prince, for the more he listened to both sides and their arguments, the more he understood that most of the population on both sides, deep down, actually identified with green thinking—and that there was, in fact, no significant difference between the platforms of the black and white parties (apart from the direction in which the money flowed).

But very soon it was made clear to him that his innocent questions interested no one. Each side continued to explain to him, with deep inner conviction and with a touch of disdain for anyone who “doesn’t grasp the spirit of things,” that the other side (the “other side” – the white, or the black) was betraying the tradition, and that they were not prepared to betray the values in which they had been educated and the role models who bear the torch of faith—black or white—as handed down on Mount Kilimanjaro thousands of years ago. And they certainly would not do so in the name of a modern, fashionable notion with no clear “Kilimanjaro” source: the color green. “What is the color green anyway? It’s nothing but light black or dark transparent. On our film there is only black or white,” they kept telling him.

In the end, the Prince understood he had nothing to look for on this strange star, and he flew off in his shattered plane toward more reasonable planets: that of the drunkard, of the old king, or of the lamplighter…

The Watershed Line

And now to the moral.

The watershed line that has divided the religious community in Israel for over a hundred years is the Zionist vs. anti-Zionist line. The ideological and sociological divisions within the religious community occur around this line: parties, ideas, arguments, budgets, communities, educational institutions, yeshivot, marriages, newspapers, literature, and more are all split between the tags “religious-Zionist” and “Haredi.” Around this line disputes rage, parties are built, and fundamental religious identities are defined.

But it is not hard to see that this line has little practical meaning today. There is currently no significant difference between religious-Zionists and Haredim in their attitude toward the state, apart from reciting Hallel on Independence Day and the color of one’s kippah. Everyone wants the state to succeed (perhaps for different reasons), and everyone participates fully in its governance. Certainly none of the mainstream Haredi stream longs for its destruction or failure. Even clear differences such as military conscription or attitudes toward the judicial system have been narrowing in recent years, with Haredim already enlisting and participating themselves in the legal system. And in general, it is worth reminding ourselves every so often of the happy fact that the state has existed for some time, and therefore the debate that divided the religious community roughly a century ago—whether to establish it or not—or even whether to support or oppose it, is anachronistic. Today it has almost no practical implications.

If we try to detach from the surrounding noise and think for a moment about what truly occupies us—and what should occupy us—these days, we quickly reach the conclusion that the main questions under public discussion in the religious community, the principal disputes that cut across us, are not about Zionism, but about issues of religious liberalism, the place of religion in the public sphere, and modernity. The questions currently debated in public and political arenas concern women’s equality, the Western Wall framework, conditions of marriage, the Chief Rabbinate (its monopoly over conversion, marriage, and kashrut), religious coercion, the policies of the rabbinical courts, attitudes toward LGBTQ people, individual rights, the attitude toward the foreigner and toward other Jewish streams, and the like.

Thus, the difference between the two communities—Haredi and religious-Zionist—in their attitude to Zionism has lost most of its significance. The differences between them today are mainly vis-à-vis modernity, not Zionism. And yet, paradoxically, the identity watershed that still divides the religious community is precisely the line between religious-Zionists and Haredim, not the question of modernity. This situation leads to an even more absurd result. As noted, with respect to modernity there are broad, deep public disagreements, and it seems as though these are waged between Haredim and religious-Zionism. But on the ground you will hardly find any difference between the conduct of Haredi parties and that of religious-Zionist representatives. To see this, I suggest a thought experiment: think of an issue that came before the Knesset in recent years where there was a difference between how the Religious-Zionism party (by its current name) voted and how a Haredi party voted. Even if you find such a random example, I suspect you will find no fewer examples distinguishing Degel HaTorah from Agudat Yisrael or Shas, or Belz from Gur. No wonder, then, that proposals occasionally surface for the Religious-Zionism party to fully join the Haredim.

So where and how does the public debate in the religious community about liberalism and modernity find political expression? It turns out that modern-religious positions currently have no political expression.[1] All the existing religious parties act in a Haredi manner. Needless to say, this is absurd. Not only is the existing identity watershed (Zionism) irrelevant; the relevant identity line (modernity) doesn’t exist—at least not politically. Has the time not come to wake up and update the dividing lines between religious identities in our day?

Definitions

To understand the root absurdity, we must step back and begin with the concepts. Under the label “Haredi” shelter two distinct ideas: opposition to Zionism and opposition to modernity. Therefore, at least conceptually, non-Haredi religiosity ought to be divided into two subgroups: religious-Zionist and modern-Orthodox. Although modern-religious Jews are usually Zionists, it is important to understand that, at least conceptually, these are two different ideas. Modern-religious identity can be non-Zionist, and religious-Zionism can be conservative (i.e., non-modern).

One can hardly deny the connection between Zionism and modern influences (the Spring of Nations, the right and aspiration to sovereignty and national expression, and perhaps also democratic values). Yet the idea and ideology of religious-Zionism, at least as expressed today, are usually grounded in internal Torah considerations: collective responsibility of Israel, the mitzvah to settle and conquer the Land, bringing the Messiah (atchalta de-ge’ulah), and so forth. There is almost no central religious-Zionist rabbi or thinker who argues against Haredi anti-Zionism in the name of modern values (How can you deny modern values like nationhood, democracy, etc.?!), and almost no one—certainly among today’s rabbinic and political leadership of religious-Zionism—bases his own commitment to Zionism on modern values. Therefore, religious-Zionism does not necessarily presuppose modernity. Conversely—and this may surprise you—modern-religious identity need not be Zionist. There are (mainly abroad, but also in Israel) observant Jews who oppose Zionism (more precisely: oppose a secular state) yet hold modern, liberal views. Conceptually, then, these are independent ideas.

On this simple analysis we would expect non-Haredi religiosity to comprise two groups: (1) religious-Zionists, who support Zionism on a religious (not modern) basis. These can of course be conservative in their approach to halakhah and tradition. (2) modern-religious Jews,[2] who advocate liberal and modern values and a significantly greater adaptation of halakhah to changing reality. Commitment to these values does not require a Zionist position, and it is not necessarily grounded exclusively in halakhic and Torah-based arguments. We saw that the religious-Zionist (with the hyphen) supports Zionism on religious grounds, and in that sense is not necessarily modern, since his Zionist values are not based on external (modern) values but on Torah considerations. Likewise, we saw that the modern-religious person is willing to act also outside that framework, and therefore even if he is a Zionist it is not necessarily on Torah grounds. He could also be both at once: think there is a halakhic obligation to settle and conquer the Land, and that cooperation with the secular is not at odds with halakhah and its spirit. He need not deny those Torah values. But as modern, he can adopt Zionism independently of them. In such a case, his Zionism and his religiosity are independent (he drops the hyphen between Zionism and religiosity). Unlike the conservative religious-Zionist, the religious Zionist (without a hyphen) is both religious and Zionist, but his Zionism is not necessarily religious.

It is interesting to see a reflection of this approach precisely in a common Haredi witticism attributed to the Ponevezher Rav. He explained to his students that he does not say Hallel or Tachanun on Independence Day—exactly like Ben-Gurion (who also did not say Hallel or Tachanun on Independence Day). People take this as a joke, but to me it was a serious statement: he was not opposed to Zionism; he was a “secular” Zionist like Ben-Gurion (and like me). He is not a religious-Zionist, but he is both religious and Zionist. From this we may infer that such a stance is open even to Haredim (i.e., those who oppose religious-Zionism—with the hyphen).

The modern-religious person, whether Zionist or not, is primarily defined by a commitment to modern values, some of which were listed above. Despite being religious, he can oppose coercion and support freedom of religion and freedom from religion, civil marriage for all citizens, and so on. For the modern-religious, a general moral and human foundation suffices to validate values and obligate adherence to them. In his view one need not find a Torah source for every value. Modern religiosity is also more willing to take reality’s constraints and contemporary conceptions into account when shaping its life and beliefs—and at times even halakhah. Needless to say, such positions must be shown not to contradict religious conceptions. Sometimes that is hard to see, and the various shades of conservatism play skillfully on this religious sentiment, causing us to conflate liberalism with “lightness.” But this is incorrect. A Jew faithful to halakhah and Torah can at the same time uphold modern values—and even be a secular Zionist. This is not trivial, but on conceptual and halakhic analysis it can be shown. Because of the complexity, this is not the place to elaborate (I have done so elsewhere).

What Happens in Practice?

In contrast to other parts of world Jewry (especially in the U.S.), in Israel the idea of modern Orthodoxy has not truly taken root. All non-Haredi Judaism here defines itself under the heading “religious-Zionism” or “national-religious,” and modern-religious identity is not placed on the table as a third alternative. Modern religiosity is considered a faction within the national-religious stream, but defining non-Haredi religiosity as “religious-Zionism” is partial—and thus mistaken and misleading. Under what we call “religious-Zionism” are concealed the two ideological currents we encountered: religious-Zionism (which in principle can be conservative in its religious and halakhic approach) and modern religiosity (which in principle can be non-Zionist, or at least Zionist without the hyphen). This partiality leads to serious errors and distorts the entire political and identity map of the religious community.

This is easy to see via the “Hardal” phenomenon—ultra-Orthodox-nationalism. Hardalim are religious-Zionists with a conservative—indeed Haredi—attitude to Torah and halakhah. Their attitude to modern values is generally hostile, and therefore at least on that plane you will see virtually no practical difference between them and Haredim. I am not speaking of the declarative and theoretical plane, usually grounded in Rav Kook’s writings on modernity. There one finds marvelous, innovative declarations calling for renewal, yet their practice is entirely Haredi. Their approach to questions like the status of women, the place of religion in Israeli public life, attitudes toward foreigners and LGBTQ people, the Western Wall framework, and every other public issue is identical to the Haredi stance on these matters. The same goes for their practical attitude to the arts, higher education, and engagement in external fields in general (topics that have been changing in recent years even among Haredim). In all these they are very similar to Haredim. In both groups there is the same fear of the outside, of the new—and in particular of the infiltration of Western culture—to the point of paranoia. The slogan “innovation is forbidden by the Torah” exists among Hardalim no less (perhaps more) than among Haredim. Paradoxically, Rav Kook’s fundamental dictum—“the old shall be renewed and the new shall be sanctified”—has become among them a dead letter, a law for the Messianic era.

Thus, at least on the practical plane there is identity between Haredim and Hardalim regarding modernity and liberalism. The practical difference between the two groups lies only in their attitude to Zionism—for example, in the sanctity they ascribe in principle to the state and its institutions, in reciting Hallel on Independence Day and Jerusalem Day, and in their attitude toward Greater Israel. But today all this has almost no practical consequences. Where would this be reflected in the Knesset (the test of voting), for instance? There is also some difference in their attitude to the settlements and the political issue in general, but beyond that, the difference is not striking (Beitar Illit and Modi’in Illit—the Haredi cities—are two of the largest “settlements”). Not for nothing is the Haredi leadership very concerned about young Haredim moving to the parties of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, and cooperates with right-wing parties in all their endeavors. Moreover, these differences have little practical meaning in these years (there is no peace process on the agenda, and everyone implements “freezes” in more or less similar fashion). This is a “secular” political matter (secular Israelis also hold such positions), and it is hard to accept it as the fundamental basis of a religious identity. Note that what is called today in political jargon “the right camp,” or “the national camp,” includes the Haredim together with the secular right and religious-Zionism. Likud keeps repeating that it will not join parties that oppose Zionism, yet it has no problem routinely sitting in a coalition with Haredi parties that have enshrined opposition to Zionism on their banners. The reason is that both Zionism and opposition to it have no real practical meaning today.

Given a situation in which mainstream Haredim (those represented in the Knesset) are Zionists de facto and Hardalim are anti-modern de facto, the remaining difference between these two groups is erased. All have turned from black-and-white to gray. This means that today Hardal is, in every respect, a branch of Haredi-ism, and there is no connection between them and modern-religious Jews. The difference between them and Haredim, in my view, is no greater than the difference between Belz and Gur and the Litvaks. Black and white have become gray, and the identity struggle over them has lost relevance. It is unclear how, despite everything I have described, religious identity is still divided around attitudes to Zionism, and Hardal is considered part of the non-Haredi religiosity (what is mistakenly called “religious-Zionism”).

So far I have dealt with Hardal, which is a small minority within the non-Haredi religious community. But it is easy to miss the fact that this description goes far beyond what we label Hardal. If we return to the voting “experiment” I described earlier, it shows that these characteristics describe the public policy of the entire religious-Zionist camp. The votes show that its representatives act in the Knesset as Hardalim—that is, as Haredim. The current identity-political situation is that of one large gray bloc, divided into two “Hasidic courts”: the Zionist one (the knitted kippot, the gray that used to be white) and the Haredi one (the black kippot, the gray that used to be black). This entire bloc behaves in a Zionist manner (at least de facto) and conservatively in its policy regarding issues of religion, modernity, and liberalism. Therefore, at least practically, it is one bloc. Those outside this bloc are the modern-religious (the Green), who disagree with the entire gray bloc on issues of modernity and liberalism (though they may resemble it with respect to attitudes to Zionism and nationalism).

I would therefore expect religious identity today to be divided between modern-liberals and conservatives (national or not), without any connection to the question of Zionism. The watershed line, i.e., the identities embodied by religious parties, should be laid out on both sides of the modernity line (and not the Zionism line). But, as noted, that is not what happens. To better understand this, consider the calls that have recently arisen to grant proper representation within the Religious-Zionism party to ostensibly liberal groups. These calls fit my analysis, since they recognize that the principal party representing non-Haredi religiosity behaves conservatively (i.e., Haredi-like). But another look reveals that these calls reflect the same error. From my analysis it follows that there is no reason to enable liberal representation within the Religious-Zionism party—no more than within Agudat Yisrael. These are two different conceptions, and there is no justification for their sharing a single party.

The conclusion that follows is that the ideological division should have been between liberals and conservatives, with conservative religious-Zionism (Hardal) and its affiliates and Haredi-ism as two factions within the conservatives. This is in contrast to the existing absurdity in which modern religiosity and Hardal are considered two factions sharing one political and religious identity (religious-Zionism). I emphasize again that I am not addressing parties here but identities. I am not at all sure there is a need for a modern-religious party. My claim concerns our religious identity, which needs updating and adaptation to reality. Questions of forming, dissolving, or merging parties are other matters. On the level of identity, the whole picture is completely illogical, anachronistic, and detached from contemporary reality.

Case Study: The Elections for the Chief Rabbinate

In 2013, elections were held for Israel’s Chief Rabbis. In the media discussion around the elections, the terms “Haredi” versus “religious-Zionist” were used constantly. Most of Israel’s public is not Haredi, and it turns out that even in the electoral body there was no such majority. Nevertheless, in this contest the candidates deemed Haredi won. Of the seven candidates only two were considered Haredi (Rabbi Boaron was seen as a middle figure), and the results, as is known, were the election of Rabbis David Lau and Yitzhak Yosef—i.e., the two considered Haredi. The punditry cried out and lamented that the Haredim had won again. Many claimed that religious-Zionism had once more shot itself in the foot by failing to unite around agreed candidates and thus lost. It is worth recalling that prior to the elections, conferences were held by the group known as “senior rabbis of religious-Zionism,” who opposed the candidacy of Rabbi David Stav (president of the Tzohar organization), seen as more liberal, in order to devise a plan to prevent his election. No wonder that afterwards many accused them of succeeding—that is, of having themselves brought about the election of Haredi rabbis.

But the entire discussion suffers from a perceptual distortion. Why is it important to us that the Chief Rabbi be religious-Zionist? Is reciting Hallel on Independence Day the essence of his role? What, exactly, is affected by whether the Chief Rabbi is Haredi or religious-Zionist? The Chief Rabbi’s functions and spheres of influence concern mainly the questions described above, most of which relate to modernity and liberalism, not to Zionism. In these elections, the substantive confrontation was between liberals and conservatives, not between religious-Zionists and Haredim. When one understands that this is the relevant watershed, and not the Zionist line, no one should be surprised by the results. The conservative majority (some religious-Zionist and some Haredi) won—and rightly so: they were the majority. The liberal minority (Rabbi Stav) lost—and rightly so: he was the minority. So why the lamentations? Why the surprise?

Ask yourselves why, in these elections, conservative and liberal religious-Zionists were supposed to unite against the Haredim at all. What do these two groups share regarding the issues on the agenda? Was anyone concerned that the elected Chief Rabbis would abolish saying Hallel on Independence Day? By the way, as far as I know, Rabbi David Lau and his father—those deemed Haredi, let me remind you—do say Hallel on Independence Day; and Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef and his father at least support saying Hallel on Independence Day. So why did their election disappoint the non-Haredi public? Obviously because of their conservative approach to halakhah. But if that is the discussion, then we are talking about modernity, not Zionism.

Note that along the liberal-conservative line, the division among the candidates was not 4:3 in favor of religious-Zionism but 6:1 for the conservatives. Why, then, is their election a failure of religious-Zionism? On the contrary: religious-Zionism, led by Haredi rabbis and activists (who say Hallel), succeeded in its mission: it prevented the appointment of a liberal rabbi. Alternatively, consider why the election of Rabbi Stav would have been considered a success for religious-Zionism. For the conservative faction, that would have been a far greater failure than the election of Rabbis Lau and Yosef. He was not elected because religious-Zionism (led by conservatives, remember) did not want him.

Moreover, the identity between Haredi dayanim and rabbis and conservatism is not exact. There are quite a few Haredi judges and rabbis who are more open and liberal than some of their religious-Zionist counterparts. In the public, there is indeed a significant slice with modern conceptions, but among its representatives in the electoral body and its rabbinic leadership, there are almost none. The lamentations stem from the fact that modernity suffered a defeat—but when one looks at the representatives and rabbis, there is no surprise. Modernity exists, but it lacks significant rabbinic and political representation. The lamentations and the surprise they express are a textbook example of the fallacy I am discussing here—namely, a mistake in understanding the true watershed. People lament because they live under a false consciousness according to which they are modern religious-Zionists, whereas they—and in fact their leaders—are conservative Zionists, that is, Haredi in every sense.

False Consciousness

We have seen that today religious identities are divided along the Zionism-Haredi axis, and modern religiosity has no place on the map. At most it is seen as a small faction within the religious-Zionist identity. One might think that even if conceptually this is distorted, there is here a political and statistical justice: history seemingly teaches that modern religiosity has no “troops.” The representations that arose for modern religiosity (Meimad in the more distant past, and perhaps Bennett until recently) do not manage to survive, and apparently they have no significant electorate. If this is the case, then even if the analysis above is accurate, in practice such a watershed does not truly exist.

I reject this claim on two levels. First, even if electorally there is no such slice, the identity exists. At most there is no justification to form a party to represent it, but a person still needs to be aware that his fundamental religious identity should not be based on Zionism or Haredi-ism, but on conservatism versus liberalism. We should not be divided between religious-Zionists and Haredim, but between conservatives and liberals. Second, in my impression, the number of those who hold modern conceptions is larger than what appears on the party map and larger than is reflected in its rabbinic and political leadership. To explain this, I must analyze the phenomenon known as “false consciousness.”

In my estimation, a significant portion of the religious-Zionist public—and also of the Haredi public—deep in their hearts favors modern religiosity, contrary to the slogans under which they were raised and by which they swear. If you ask people in a private conversation about religious coercion, human rights, the Chief Rabbinate, and so forth, many will give you modern-liberal answers. Yet it seems that many feel that the identity reflected by those answers is not a legitimate religious identity. So they were educated; so their political leaders and rabbis still preach to them. Therefore, in the eyes of the simple person, a modern-religious outlook is at best a weakness one must overcome in the name of loyalty to Torah. It is a temptation to follow Western populist fashions, stemming from weakness in religious commitment (this is the essence of the term “light”).

I understand the success of this biased, misleading propaganda as having two causes: sometimes we are indeed speaking of people with weak religious commitment who merely follow fashions (the “light” phenomenon). But clearly the sweeping identification of liberalism with “lightness” is wrong; not everyone is like that. The success of this false propaganda stems from the fact that the third identity, despite being well founded in sources and reason, lacks leadership and a coherent platform. In such a situation it is very easy for the conservative leadership (Zionist and non-Zionist alike) to present these conceptions as “lightness” that is unfaithful to halakhah and even contradicts it. As a result of this biased propaganda, people take for granted that modernity (green) in essence is “lightness” (light black or dark transparent).[3] This propaganda perpetuates the anachronistic black-and-white watershed and denies green the ability to present itself before the public as a legitimate third identity. Welcome to the State of Jacob.

There are actors for whom it is important (for reasons I will enumerate shortly) to perpetuate the false consciousness of “black-and-white” and not let the “green” ideas sprout in the social and political field. There is a fixed group known as the “senior rabbis of religious-Zionism” that sets the political tone in the Religious-Zionism party. The party largely follows their directives, and its strategic decisions are typically made in one of their offices—despite the fact that the vast majority of the non-Haredi public it ostensibly represents is not particularly interested in the teachings of these rabbis. How many in the public identify with those rabbis’ statements on the status of women, attitudes toward LGBTQ people, issues of personal status, and the necessity of religious coercion? Very few. And yet this cluster of conservative rabbis—who, at least in their conceptions and public conduct, are Haredi in every essential sense (even if not all would be labeled Hardali in common parlance)—is defined as “the senior rabbis of religious-Zionism” and largely dictates its conduct. I could perhaps agree that these rabbis are the leaders of religious-Zionism, but they are certainly not leaders of modern religiosity. They do not express the view of a significant portion of the public who, due to the fallacy described above, is labeled “religious-Zionist.” As noted, at least practically their conduct is almost entirely Haredi. Yet because of conceptual murkiness and confusion about the watershed line, the public perceives them as the rabbis of the non-Haredi religiosity (including modern religiosity), because that is what we call “religious-Zionism.” And so we all—educated on religious-Zionist values—are left with the imagined identity of religious-Zionists and feel that these are our leaders.

No one notices that the entire discussion assumes an anachronism: that our identity must be defined around our Zionism rather than around modernity–liberalism. The fact that these individuals make decisions for all of us seems somehow self-evident, and no one says the emperor has no clothes. Whoever dares to say it is accused of fomenting division (an accusation that presupposes the misguided assumption that we are talking about a split within one stream). Incidentally, the fact that over the years the political conduct of the Religious-Zionism party is guided by rabbis is itself a clear Haredi characteristic.

We must understand that if I am right—that a significant portion of the Haredi public and of the non-Haredi religious public tends in their hearts toward modern conceptions, at least if this were presented to them as a legitimate religious identity (and not labeled “light”)—then forming an ideological slice, a party, or a movement that acts along modern-religious lines would leave the current leadership naked and exposed. A significant portion of the public would move into this new slice, and the two poles would remain with a certain share of conservative Zionists or anti-Zionists who obey the conservative rabbis on both sides. A large share of the public would be outside this anachronistic black-and-white game, and green would become a dominant color—perhaps even the dominant color.

You can now understand why, for the conservative leadership on both sides—rabbinic and political—self-definition of the modern-religious group is an ideological cataclysm. Such a redefinition could obliterate religious-Zionism and Haredi-ism—the movements on which we were educated and raised. The fact that both sides insist, with great intensity, on maintaining the irrelevant watershed of Zionism vs. Haredi-ism (black-and-white) attests to a shared fear on both sides of that ideological cataclysm, a fear born of mental automatism and long habit. No wonder they constantly engage in propaganda against the “greens,” alleging they are “light,” neo-Reform, gentiles in disguise, and so on. They use their rabbinic-Torah authority to claim that such a stance has no halakhic legitimacy. I do not mean to say this stems from lust for power or malicious plotting. I am convinced these are good people who truly believe in their path; they are simply mistaken—and their authority sows confusion among the broader public. Their conservatism, as well as the power of long habit, causes all of us to cling to these anachronistic ideas and fight yesterday’s fervent battle. No prince, however small, will divert us from it.

The general public is not equipped with overly complex tools of thought, and therefore struggles to rebel against its leadership and the values in which it was raised. Are the rabbis who served as our role models fools—or wicked? Are these great men conducting propaganda and creating false consciousness? For one raised in religious-Zionist education it is very hard to accept such a thesis. Nor do I think so, as I’ve said. But I do think they are mistaken and misleading—even if innocently.

It is no wonder that many with a modern-religious identity attribute their intellectual and practical deviations from “pure truth”—Haredi in essence—to their weaknesses. Such a person says to himself: I may be weak (“light”), but I am certainly not modern-religious, heaven forbid (after all, our great Torah leaders say those are neo-Reform). In my personal life I may not conduct myself in a conservative way, but that is only out of weakness. Such a person typically takes care to maintain—at least outwardly—the conservative religious-Zionist identity to which he is accustomed, hoping his son will be stronger. The synagogue he does not go to is only the conservative religious-Zionist synagogue. The rabbis he chooses not to listen to are only the Haredi-nationalist rabbis who make political decisions in our name. Therefore, in his eyes, a partnership-style synagogue (like “Shira Hadasha”) is intended for neo-Reform who are not committed to halakhah (unlike him—he merely cuts corners). Thus is formed the false consciousness that leads to the political split I described—creating the misleading impression that there is no significant modern-religious public.

I estimate that once the third alternative—modern religiosity—is conceptualized and placed on the table as a legitimate religious identity consistent with full halakhic commitment, many on both sides of the current divide will identify with it and abandon the false consciousness imposed upon them. They will recognize that they are actually “green,” and that this is entirely legitimate. The anachronistic black-and-white will shrink—and in fact become a gray pole facing the green pole on the two sides of the updated watershed. I do not know how many will stand on each side, but I suppose we will discover quite a few “closeted greens.” In any case, at least it will be clear what we are talking about, who is against whom, and where I stand in all this.

It is important to understand that even rabbis and public leaders who clearly incline toward modern religiosity feel themselves on the defensive. Sometimes even they fail to free themselves from the conservative religious-Zionist discourse and to conceptualize and articulate an explicit third identity outside today’s dichotomy. Beyond that, when one of them does so, he is immediately accused of fomenting division (“harming the religious-Zionist camp,” which conservatives are very comfortable defining as one unified camp—though, as we have seen, there is no justification for this). I get the impression that many of them do not even notice the fallacy I have described. In my view, these rabbis need to awaken and craft such a conceptualization in order to clarify the difference between modern religiosity and Reform or “lightness,” thereby neutralizing the demagogic criticisms hurled at it from conservative flanks. But as long as even they do not do this, what will the citizens and politicians—the moss of the wall—say?

Current Political Implications

Although my concern here is ideological identity and not political parties, I want to connect the discussion to current events, if only to sharpen its meaning. As stated, voting patterns serve here only to illustrate the identity-ideological claim. Many view Naftali Bennett’s fall as evidence of liberalism’s failure and the lack of a real electorate for those directions. In the end, we are told, deep down even the “light” are good Jews; they know what is truly right and what their weaknesses are, and they do not turn these into ideology.

But such analyses ignore Bennett’s prior successes—particularly against the backdrop of the steady decline of religious-Zionist political representation over years. In my view, Bennett’s earlier impressive successes stemmed from riding the suppressed modern sentiment. Those bearing the silenced third identity felt there was finally some expression of their views, and that was new to them. When this expression arrives with a right-wing worldview, it offers a double innovation (compared to Meimad). It allows the voter to separate political desires (right) from religious conceptions (modern religiosity)—which is not possible in the Religious-Zionism party. Bennett’s success indicates that there is a broad modern public. Bennett’s fall stems, among other things (beyond his own failures, of course), from the fact that the war against this stream intensifies the more it gains political expression—and from the false consciousness that this war succeeds in creating.

Without entering into Bennett’s decisions, promises, and statements (I certainly share some of the criticisms), one cannot deny that the intensity of the war against Bennett and his colleagues was utterly hysterical. The war against them escalated to extreme levels. Bennett and his cohort became the greatest corruptors and traitors to the Jewish people since Dathan and Abiram—and the greatest enemies since Balaam, Pharaoh, and Esau. I’ll just note there was a rabbi who refused to give Minister Matan Kahana a glass of water. Bennett, as prime minister, was not invited to Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav on Jerusalem Day (almost heresy in their view—especially if one remembers who was invited). Unceasing demonstrations—replete with lies and malicious, tendentious slander—were conducted against them and their families, as well as ostracism in synagogue and community. They were likened to the worst of humanity, presented as leftists who hate Israel and have joined terrorists, and more. The violent and disproportionate criticism of Bennett and his cohort—joined by Haredim and religious-Zionists (together, again)—indicates an understanding, not necessarily conscious, among conservative adherents that the threat posed by him to them is not merely a local political one, but an existential ideological threat. As part of the same tactic, the conservative leadership (on both sides) stoked the public, which turned wholly against the new threat.

Politicians of Bennett’s type are not equipped with the Torah and philosophical capacity to contend with the criticism and the frenzied war waged against them. Remember that Bennett and his colleagues themselves are faithful products of religious-Zionist education and society, and therefore they find it hard to stand up to rabbinic figures by whose light they were themselves educated. No wonder that Bennett and Shaked—who themselves are far from religious conservatism—acted, until the last term, in decidedly conservative religious directions and led a Haredi line in every religious matter on the agenda of the Knesset. They understood that this is their role as representatives of the religious-Zionist public, and they submitted themselves to its leading figures—namely, the conservative rabbis who lead it. Bennett and Shaked are not truly positioned to determine whether these are indeed “great rabbis,” and whether their stances necessarily reflect halakhic interpretation. Therefore they assumed that such is the case. They adopted the insulting, yet common, view that the religious public—like an Arab village or a development town—has “notables” whom one must approach in order to move things and make decisions. Thus, politicians who themselves do not espouse conservative religious positions fell victim to the very identity fallacy I describe here.

This booklet hardly claims anything on the principled plane. It deals mainly with description—that is, presenting a fuller identity map with a more directed, updated coordinate system, from which naturally sprouts an option that is somehow silenced in our public discourse. Now each person can—and should—choose precisely where he situates himself on this map. Thinkers and rabbis must shake off the misleading, agenda-driven discourse that imprisons us all, and build a platform, infrastructure, and support that will dispel the mistaken consciousness and give the public the possibility to develop a third religious identity. At that stage arguments are of course required. This small booklet cannot lay that groundwork. It contains an initial direction for renewed thinking and for gathering the social and rabbinic forces that identify with the identity pulled out of the fog and placed here on the table. Those who support it can come from religious-Zionism with or without a hyphen—and even from circles that do not define themselves as Zionist. The time has come to free ourselves from the conservative straightjacket repeatedly forced upon us. Ultimately, I believe we can add a magic “anti-eraser” and color the world green instead of the anachronistic, exasperating black-and-white that ties our hands and our thoughts for roughly three generations. This process will not necessarily lead to the victory of modernity. But as a result of it, at least every Jewish mother will know that if she sends her son to war, it will be a worthy war and he will know what he is fighting for.

And here are a few answers to claims likely to arise

 

You said you’re not political—so where’s the funding from? From private individuals—friends who believe in the importance of this discussion.

 

This is a leftist picture. Not true, despite what you are told morning and night—that anyone against Bibi, Smotrich, or Gafni is a leftist. That is part of the propaganda I described. One’s stance toward liberal values is unrelated to political right or left. Incidentally, even if I were leftist, I believe arguments should be discussed on their merits and examined substantively, regardless of the speaker’s identity. Labeling is a tool of the weak (those who have no arguments).

 

But practically I must vote Religious-Zionism, because it’s the only true Right. Perhaps. I am not dealing here with political voting but with identity building. You should examine—regardless of your vote—whether your fundamental religious identity is rooted in Zionism, and whether that is the issue around which it is appropriate to split and clash. In particular, think about who your rabbinic and political leadership is. My words here aim to clarify questions of identity. Each person will draw his own political conclusions.

 

Does the identity you propose have a Torah basis? Absolutely yes—but do not expect it within the confines of a small booklet. Whoever wants to delve deeper must read, study, and inquire (you are invited to my trilogy, which in my view does the job, and to the site here). At minimum I wished to inform you that such a foundation exists, and that it is no less solid than the foundations underlying the two anachronistic poles I critique here.

 

And what about “Da’at Torah” (rabbinic authority)? I do not accept this concept—even in its softer senses common among the non-Haredi public. I see it as part of the propaganda I described.

 

But this goes against the education we received. Indeed, this line of thought runs counter to the education we all received, both religious-Zionist and Haredi. Again I say: ideas must be judged on their merits, not by their source—judge the claim, not the claimant. And I will further ask: what would you say to a pagan who refuses to abandon the path in which he was raised?! The fact that we were educated in a certain way is no guarantee that it is correct—and certainly not that it is perfect. The authority and responsibility to decide rest with the person himself.

 

Wait—are the religious-Zionist leaders really Haredi? That’s demagoguery! One must understand that under the definition I propose, the term “Hardal” is applied among us too narrowly. It is not about the rabbis of a few yeshivot (“the line”) but about many rabbis and politicians who were educated by them or influenced by them—by their power or by the power of their power. In my remarks I provided indicators (a list of issues, positions, and Knesset voting patterns regarding them). You are invited to use them to examine your own views and the situation in the political field.

 

This picture isn’t complex enough. Reality is always more complex than any thesis about it. Every theoretical discussion—especially one about seam lines—is necessarily simplified, and rightly so. Remarks about “oversimplification” in a principled debate do not allow one to make a claim. For more material on this, articles and recorded lessons, see the site.

[1] The “Yamina” party is not a religious party but a right-wing party, and it indeed gave some expression to the modern-religious public. However, it has now disappeared; below I will touch on the significance of this.

[2] In light of the earlier distinction, the hyphen requires explanation, but I will not go into that here.

[3] In my view, a significant part of the “light” phenomenon stems from the very labeling that assumes identity between religious commitment and conservatism. The “light” have internalized this baseless conflation and therefore see themselves as weak. Once that conflation is removed, some may discover that they are not “light” but modern-religious.

186 תגובות

    1. I think one of the reasons why it is difficult to define modern-conservative as a dividing line is that the separation is much less clear than Zionist / non-Zionist, but it is much more continuous.
      In addition, in my opinion, except for extreme fringes on both sides (I am talking about religious Zionism, I do not know the Haredi world well enough) there is no difference in principles but in the method of action and the ”dosage”. Everyone agrees that the Torah and the commandments are of paramount importance, that there is meaning for the secular world, that there is something to learn from general culture but on the other hand one must also be wary of it.
      Because the disputes are quantitative (how much to be exposed to general culture) and in methods of action (do laws of a Jewish nature contribute to the state/Judaism or harm it), in my opinion, religious Zionism is still one camp with genuine disputes within it, but not ones that split it into two opposing camps.

      1. I didn't understand the argument. These unifying lines also exist among ultra-Orthodox groups, but they don't exist among Mustardim.

        1. I think that for most of those who are called “Haredim” (and certainly the absolute majority of religious Zionism) these unifying lines exist and the debate is only about the dosages.
          Regarding the fact that the Haredim” statements regarding modernity are “open” but in practice they are Haredim, that is not so clear to me. In practice, most Haredim are open to modernity, of course with reservations and caution.

          1. I disagree, but the numerical question is really not important. I argued that the essential seam is the attitude towards modernity. If some of the mustards are in Tsemmal, then they belong there. Why is this important? The public + political conduct of religious Zionism and its leadership is Haredi.

    2. I read the article a second time and it turns out that it connects with a question that I have been asking myself for years. And maybe it is actually the other side of the same coin:
      Every time someone writes about exceptional Haredim (“Haredi but …”) the question arises for me what is the definition-essence of Haredi. Not descriptions but essence. For example, in the first source there was an article about Agudat Kedushat Zion (by Moshe Lipshitz). Nice movement, but in what way are they Haredim (and not Mustardim, for the sake of discussion)?
      Incidentally, we see this tension in the introduction by the descendants of Rabbi Rabbi Issachar Katal in Am HaBani Simcha. A Zionist father?! God forbid.
      Shmuel Weisberg

  1. Regarding the settlements, the Haredim do not settle for ideological reasons, but for financial reasons. If they receive an order from the rabbis to leave, then they will leave. They have no interest in annoying some troublemakers and showing them who owns the house, unlike the religious Zionist settlers, some of whom seem to consider raids in Palestinian villages an inseparable part of enjoying Shabbat.

    And it is precisely among the ”extremists” in Haredi society that you will find a certain openness that stems from opposition to the very existence of the Jewish state. You are welcome to ask Neturi Karta what they think about civil marriage and private kosher. You will find enthusiastic support, as part of the desire to overthrow the rabbinate and undermine the fiction of the ”Jewish state”.

    1. I am talking about practical differences, not slogans. When a peace agreement is on the agenda and settlements are required to be evacuated, then perhaps there will be a difference between Haredim and Religious Zionists. That is not on the agenda and it is certainly not a peg on which to hang a religious identity.
      Neturi Karta is not on the map I drew. It is an esoteric and unimportant group.

  2. On the 9th of Elul, February 2nd

    The Third Identity, which offers liberal religiosity, has long existed in at least three forms: the Tzohar rabbis, the Beit Hillel rabbis, and the Torah and Work Loyal, with various nuances distinguishing between them. Ramada recently attempted to establish a new Modern Orthodox organization that would attract graduates of the Yeshiva University in America, but they were not averse to innovations that have no solid basis in the literature of the Poskim.

    It seems that most of the Third Identity members They see themselves as an integral part of halachic Judaism, and strive to anchor their innovations in the words of their predecessors, and not see themselves as a ’new stream in Judaism’ and indeed, the more they adhere to a standard and proper halachic style of thinking and writing that is anchored in the words of the Poskim, first and last – they have a chance of remaining within the framework of halachic Judaism.

    With greetings, Ofer Bedan Mellav-Moskroner (Abb”m)

    In the political sphere – there was ‘the Jewish Home’ where there was a place for all circles of religious Zionism, both the people of the Merkaz HaRav and the people of Mount Etzion. Bennett and Shaked interpreted it and made an attempt to revive the Jewish Home and established a faction representing both directions. Smotrich pushed the Jewish Home into a corner and pushed his friends into the arms of the ‘Right’ that became the ’Left’.

    What Smotrich’ did to Hagit Moshe in the previous elections – Ben-Gvir did to him in the current elections, and perhaps thanks to them there will be a revival for the ’Jewish Home’ in conjunction with Ayelet Shaked. The problem is: who will lead there. Shaked's approach, which valued and listened to the advice of rabbis, or Handel's arrogant approach, and will this combination succeed in passing the threshold?

    1. Paragraph 3, line 3
      … and a council was established for him that represented…

    2. And at the end of the day, the dividing line between identities is not between conservatives and moderns, but rather the question of accepting the tenets of Judaism, and accepting the authority of the sages and our first and last rabbis. Whoever accepts these and these is part of Rabbinic Judaism.

      With best wishes, אבבן

    3. I forgot to list other organizations that preach ’modern religiosity’, such as ‘Jacob Herzog Center’, ‘Mizrah Shemesh’, ‘Kolach’ and ’Hadar’ and others, and with them the forgiveness, so that ’the third identity’ joins a broad group…

      Best regards, אבן

      1. The problem in the political sphere with politicians who show vigor in the field of religious-modern policy is that for some reason they also tend to join the left in the political-security sphere, such as Elazar Stern and Moshe Tor-Paz who sit in Yesh Atid, and Matan Kahane who joined the state camp and began to understand the Palestinian narrative and explain vigorously that we must support Abu Mazen.

        For some reason there is a connection between a right-wing view in the political-security sphere and a tendency towards conservatism in the traditional-religious sphere. Therefore, the right-wing religious-modern voter must decide what is more important to him.

        Best regards, Avm

        1. On the 11th of Elul, 2nd of February

          And perhaps instead of dividing and splitting and tearing ourselves apart into conflicting identities, we will begin to search for a ‘triple identity’ that strives for both closeness to God, solidarity with the people and society in all their diversity, and self-realization of the individual.

          We will understand that some emphasize one side, and some emphasize another side, but all sides are essential in order to complete the ’puzzle’ and create an ‘combined identity’, in which there is balance and harmony between man and place, between man and society, and between man and himself. We will give others some of our emphases and learn from them with appreciation for their emphases, in the sense of &#8216receiving justice for justice’.

          Instead of bringing the polarized social divisions of the election campaign to the synagogue, we will strive to make the synagogue and the Beit Midrash a place that radiates harmonious wholeness to the entire public, and we will ask with all our hearts: “Put good peace and blessings upon us and upon all Israel with you.”

          With best wishes, Matanya Hai Kimelman-Shiloh

          1. יהודי אני וכל דבר יהודי אינו זר לי - פתיחות מתחילה מבית says:

            In the words of the Lord, "Broaden your place, O people of the world."

            One of the characteristics of modernity is the broadening of horizons. The ability to absorb knowledge and ideas from outside, while maintaining the autonomous judgment that will decide what to adopt and what to reject.

            If Orthodoxy is loyalty to the written and oral Torah, then modern Orthodoxy is an opening to all areas of the Torah, to the world of the prophets and the sages, to the world of the first and the last, of Ashkenazim and Sephardim, of Italians and Yemenites, to the world of scholars and the world of halachic arbiters, to the world of philosophers and Kabbalists, to those who think and those who are moral and Hasidic, to people of emotion and people of reason, to people of spirit and people of action.

            The modern Orthodox Jew is a proud Jew, to whom nothing Jewish is foreign. He finds interest in all the various methods of halakha and thought, insists on their merits and deepens his understanding of all opinions and opposing opinions, and from his deep knowledge he chooses for himself from all the streams and shades the points that delight and strengthen him, but also understands and respects different methods, as long as they are rooted in Judaism.

            With blessings, Congregation Ouspansky the Kabbalist

  3. I think it is easy to explain the fall of “modern religious” parties not necessarily in false consciousness, but in the natural identification of their voters with secular parties.
    If, as stated here, the modern religious does not see a religious basis for his Zionism (if one exists) and does not desire the imposition of religion in the public sphere, what does a religious party have to do with him?
    Perhaps this is an expression of self-awareness. The modern religious no longer needs to vote for a “religious” party in order to strengthen his personal religious identity. Therefore, he turns to the secular party closest to him, and continues to feel religious in his home.

    1. I'm not at all sure that religious parties are needed either. That's why I talked about religious identity and not party affiliation. As for voting, I agree that's part of the issue, and the other part is false consciousness.

  4. Although you firmly claim that there is no connection between “liteism” and religious modernity, and your rational arguments are good. Unfortunately, they do not convince me. By my identity, I am a modern religious. But the fact is that I do not find many Jews who truly see value in modernity and at the same time are faithful, love studying (investing their time in) Torah and Torah students. Recently, after many years of studying Gemara, first listening to online lessons, I began to learn Shev Shematata. What can I tell you, I have almost no one to talk to about this, and certainly not really a modern generation who would appreciate studying Torah. On the other hand, most of my Torah friends have not read and will not read Anna Karenina or Gargantua and Pantagruel, and will not be amazed by the understandings in the novellas in the theory of numbers. I know that there are others like me, I know that they are few. How many Jews like Attorney Yaakov Weinroth do you know? Who admired until the day he died the analytical skills of his rabbi, the rabbi Rozovsky, and on the other hand was open and interested in this world? Count carefully and you will reach 247... What can I say? I wish, somehow modernity and our beloved Torah don't work together. How many Jews do you know who would be interested in what you write about LGBTQ and at the same time enjoy your book on issues of time in the Talmud? (I laughed out loud). It doesn't work, we are a minority. In any case, I will also spread the article, it is very important, but without God's intervention there is not much chance (:

    1. כדי להיות 'גם וגם' צריך להיות פניררז' (לי"ב) says:

      On the 9th of Elul, February 2nd

      To be proficient in both Gargantua and Shev Shemata, one must be a Panirz (= omnipotent) and then, with his knowledge of Shev Shemata, one's existential dilemma of whether to marry or not will be resolved 🙂

      The ideal of being a man of all wisdoms, which prevailed in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, is diminishing in the modern era, in which every field is expanding in the knowledge and study required. Being a modern scholar requires specialization.

      What can be expected of a modern scholar is that he has general, multidisciplinary knowledge, a basic recognition of worldwide currents of thought. In fact, in the circles of ‘Har Hamor’ there are a few of them…

      With regards, Ofer Bedan Mellav-Moskroner (OBM)

      1. Here we must see a positive aspect in Rabbi Eliezer Melamed's book "Peninyi Halacha", which, although he leaned towards the liberal side in some of his rulings, such as on the issues of conversion and the attitude towards Reform Jews and on some of the issues of purity and kashrut in which he exaggerated his own standards, nevertheless, the general spirit that permeates his books is one of grammar in law and maintaining a connection to the words of the poskim, which will help his audience not to "lighten up" a world-encompassing ideology that claims to be a "third identity".

        Perhaps the desire not to create a complete rift is expressed in the relatively moderate attitude of Rabbi Yaakov Ariel, who, on the one hand, expressed reservations about some of Rabbi Melamed's innovative rulings, but did not call for his books to be taken off the shelf. The reservations led to the appearance of a series of ‘Oheli Halacha’ by the ‘Torah and Land Institute’ which bring to a concise ruling according to the path and rulings of Rabbi Ariel. So that everyone can compare and stand on the differences

        With blessings, Menashe Barkai Buch-Terger (Mab”T)

    2. You have a mistake in analyzing reality, in my opinion. The numerical questions of the lite are irrelevant to the discussion. My argument is that there are many people whose view is this, and indeed many of them are lite. So what? My words are addressed to them, who will clarify two things that are trying to obscure them: 1. Are they really lite or are they only identifying themselves as such because of their opposition to the lite. 2. Furthermore, does their lite assume an ideal conservative-lite model (which they are too weak to conform to) or a modern model (which they are too weak to conform to). In my opinion, the majority belong to the second type. I am talking about the fundamental perceptions and not about the actual conduct.

    3. Yaakov Weinrot is perhaps a good example for himself
      On the public level, he completely identified with the Haredi parties, and attacked the ”modern Haredim” and the study of the heart” for the Haredim
      so that he was a good man demanding for himself, and not for others

  5. Are there any in the circles of Mount Moriah? How many? Write names. And don't start with Aviner and end with him. Because if you really knew, Rabbi Tau wouldn't have counted him. How could you dismiss Rabbis Lichtenstein, Rabinowitz, and Steinsaltz with a wave of your hand? So it's true that they are all here among us, but only recently have they been around, and with each of them it was possible to talk broadly about this world and the Holy Torah. What are you doing with Mount Moriah? They hate not only the world of the world, even a commentary on the writings of a rabbi who is not a student of Rabbi Tau is unacceptable in their eyes. Well, you always want to defend everyone. Bless you with this and the next.

  6. My main problem with the article is that it actually calls for identity politics. Instead of the author calling on people to grow up and vote for someone who will promote the policies they believe in, he calls on people to vote according to a different identity from the variety of identities they hold. In my opinion, this is the greatest damage that can be done to politics and shared public life. I assume that the author also does not want the state to decide in any way debates about religious views or perceptions, but at most a change of perception and a change of gender in state religious institutions such as the Chief Rabbinate and the religious councils. If I am right and that is what all the fuss is about, then the obvious question is whether, out of the myriad of challenges and issues on the agenda, this is the issue that can and should consolidate the political camps. I personally think that the identity of the chairman of the Teachers' Union has more of an impact on the citizen in "life itself" than the identity of the Chief Rabbi. In short, politics is not a continuation of blog polemics through other means, or at least it is not supposed to be.

    1. Where did you see in my words a call to vote for someone? I was talking about identities, not parties.
      And where did I say in my words that the state would decide questions of religious identity? I wrote exactly the opposite: that people should relate to life and the state according to their religious identity, not according to emotional and anachronistic tribalism.

      1. A. I didn't claim that you called for voting for someone because it would really be absurd to make such a claim, but you explicitly called for changing the considerations by which we go out to vote around the outline you formulated.
        B. I claimed “What's your point” - if you really aren't in favor of the state deciding, then it turns out that you're proposing to replace one type of anachronistic tribalism with another type of anachronistic tribalism, because if there is no practical meaning to a vote that stems from identity, we are left with only emotional meaning (aka identity politics)

        1. A. Indeed, I called on people to consider their vote according to the policies they desire and not according to emotional and anachronistic identity politics. The ”camp” that I formed (a bit hastily, isn't it?) is a camp that has some kind of worldview, and those who belong to it do so because they believe in it and not because they belong to it for historical reasons (after all, it only formed now), and this is in contrast to my current situation. I really can't understand the distortion of the facts that you are making here.
          B. As above. It seems that you didn't even read what I wrote.

  7. First, I agree with the principled analysis.
    But it seems to me that on the ground there are social facts and they are reflected in the rabbinical leadership and politics.
    Socially, a Torah-obsessed family of knitted kippahs can go to both the line and the Gush and its daughters (what would be defined as a Haredi”el and a modern religious Zionist) but hardly to a black yeshiva. Therefore, in practice, we see that there is a kind of knitted kippah society. On the other hand, Haredim will not go to the line yeshiva and the modern ones will not go to the Gush (at most to Kerem Yavne), and it is clear that there is a social identity. This is also evident in marriage, cohabitation and participation in communities.
    As a result, there is a leadership and political reflection that every society is interested in its rabbinate and votes for its representatives in order to take care of itself, its neighborhoods and its institutions.
    Although there is a clear conservative-liberal line, it cannot be denied that there is some kind of social production of black kippahs versus knitted ones and this comes from below from the ground, even though there is no logical theoretical explanation for this from the analysis of the concepts you have performed.
    To illustrate, about a year ago there was a series of articles on the Haredim on one of the channels, and the fact that even the modern ones among them who study and work want and aspire for their children to study Torah in a kollel and not enlist and become Torah scholars than them was striking. In contrast, the modern one with a knitted kippah does not feel this way and is more at peace with his choice. Although in the eyes of many of my acquaintances from the yeshivahs of the line they are Haredim de facto, in practice our children may study together, they may marry and they may be my neighbors. Haredim have almost no chance. For some reason there is a Haredi society and a society called national religious. This is the actual situation.

    1. I didn't understand your argument. You repeat what I said and then say you disagree. After all, that's exactly what I argued, that the field is behaving in an anachronistic and illogical way. I started by saying that everything is divided around the Zionist line: institutions, yeshivas, synagogues, matchmaking, literature, rabbis, newspapers, budgets, and all of this doesn't make sense. So where's the argument?

      1. This is no longer the Zionist line. Whatever the history and whatever the names, there are actually two societies. People do not choose them on a Zionist-non-Zionist basis. They simply exist on the ground from a sociological perspective. It is not possible to challenge this from above following the echo of your correct analysis. Still, from the same class in a high school yeshiva, some will go to the line yeshiva, various preparatory schools, the Seder and the army, and not to black yeshiva, and vice versa (an ultra-Orthodox person who is not suitable for a yeshiva will not go to a Kedz preparatory school). They will feel strangers in each other's place. There is supposedly something truly social that has been created in the area, where there are all kinds of neighbors and family members, and we will all sit together on Shabbat or meet at celebrations and feel a connection. And when we sit with an ultra-Orthodox person, there will be less of a sense of social partnership and even feel alienated. I am not pointing to a reason, but rather to the actual appearance of things. My argument is that it is very difficult to change this proactively because it does not stem from ideological gaps (the mustard and the Haredim are certainly much more similar than the liberal and the mustard) but from a structured society that already exists on the ground, and changing tribalism is very difficult. As an example of this, I gave that even the moderns who are Haredim feel a sense of belonging to the Haredi tribe in their aspirations that their children will be pure Haredim and less modern than them, in complete contrast to the religious moderns.
        I do not fundamentally disagree, I just have a hard time seeing how anything could change proactively. Processes occur, but they take time and come from below. It seems to me that a modern who reads you and nods in agreement was already convinced before. Those who really need to diagnose their place on the scale (especially the mustard who in practice behave like Haredim who say Hallelujah), define you as an infidel anyway and will hide everything that comes out of your mouth. Although I completely agree with the analysis, I have difficulty seeing how discourse can make a difference when it comes to deeply rooted tribalism.

        1. Everything you wrote is also written by me. This is indeed the Zionist line, except that it has settled down for sociological and psychological reasons, and now stands on its own. I wrote all of this exactly too. If you ask people, they will tell you that their fundamental identity is Zionist-religious (or religious-national), as opposed to Haredi. This is the justification they give themselves in retrospect for their psychology. If so, here we completely agree.
          We are left only with your claim that there is no chance of changing this distorted situation, that is, getting people to abandon emotion and return to reason. I am more optimistic, and in my opinion this third identity is definitely possible, and in my opinion it is already being created. Those who belong to the labels of Haredi and Zionist-religious, who understand that there is really no difference, share it. Both in the Haredi-Haredi pole and in the more liberal pole. History has its own ways, and we must help it as much as we can. Will we succeed or not? The future will tell us.
          If you are a sociological and psychological determinist, then there is really no point in discussing it. But I think that sociology is created by people and not just creates them, and in this first component (of creating sociology) we have a role and also a chance to succeed. Without it, nothing would have been created, and we would have been like the first man or just random circumstances that acted on us. I refuse to accept such a fatalistic picture.

          1. So let me get to the point for a moment, what do you expect to happen in practice? The mustard will say that he is not Haredi and vice versa. What will change? Since they are currently rooted in their own identity and so proud of their black/white past, what will move them and where? What impact will this have other than words when in practice their children do not go out on dates and they do not sit on the same stool in the same yeshivas. Will they be suitable for one company? After all, they do not listen to you at all (or to anyone who is not a message from the mouth of the Divine Presence in the form of their omniscient rabbis, Zach”l). In the liberal public, this is ostensibly more possible, but since the liberal Haredi is less independent and is in practice a shadow that looks down on the true conservative Haredi, as long as there is no change in the conservative public, in my opinion this is less likely to lead to sociological change in the non-conservative public.

            1. I don't expect change to happen tomorrow morning, but change is already happening and will probably intensify. This article joins the effort to promote it.

  8. Why don't you take my arguments seriously, Miki?
    After all, I write very matter-of-factly.
    You can read here:
    https://mikyab.net/posts/77547#comment-65416

  9. The reality is much more complex than the above article, there is no reference to different subgroups and shades in the existing tapestry of opinions between Zionist conservatism and liberalism and modernity. For example, different shades within Sephardic Judaism, reference to the selfish idea in relation to modernity, the Breslav idea, and the group of foreign immigrants in their shades.
    In any case, good luck.

  10. Rabbi Michi,
    I wanted to thank you again for your clarity and courage. You opened my eyes. Continue on this path. So much for your life.

    1. Ehud, thank you for the compliments. If I followed the ways of the Holy One (the opener of the blind) and opened one eye in Israel, that would be my reward.

      1. Peace and blessings
        Doesn't the fact that as a public, the ultra-Orthodox are not involved in the fighting and the religious (all) are involved in the fighting show that there is a deep difference between the publics?
        I do not deny the general claim to look at the publics in a more substantive and less sociological way

        1. In my opinion, this is not a fundamental difference. It would also be pretty much erased if economic sanctions were imposed. The isolation of the Haredim is of course a characteristic, but it is not fundamental.

  11. I wanted to praise the site owner again for his insightful words. May your springs be restored across the border. Be strong and courageous, and do not dry up because of the mockers and the slanderers.

    1. Ehud, your constant praise is really embarrassing. They will even think it was invited by me. Please, please, stop it and address the merits of the matter.

        1. No, – Hello,

          It is better to say: ‘May the fanatics die’. After all, we are moderns who advocate openness and tolerance1

          With greetings, Matanya Hai Kimelman-Shiloh

          1. They will become zealous in their moderation, and will destroy moderation as well.
            Therefore they have no protection but a knife…

            1. In the name of God, and my mercy from you will not be forgotten

              To Israel, peace be upon you,

              Indeed, in order to act with moderation, there is a need for a zealous adherence to the degree of patience not to burst out in anger in the face of what offends.

              But it must be known that moderation is not indifference. Moderation is the result of zeal. The zealot understands that it is not enough to be angry at evil, ignorance, and darkness, but rather to correct the dismal situation. And correction can only come through persuasion.

              When you attack a person who has no protection but a knife, and so on, there is no chance that he will listen to you. On the other hand, when you try to understand the considerations of the wrongdoer, then you can deal with him and put him in the light.

              And so the prophet says: ‘For who has sworn this to me, that I have sworn beyond the past, who has yet rested on the earth, so I swear that I will be angry with you and rebuke you’ ? The effective ’flood’ that will truly succeed in uprooting evil from its roots – is to flood the world with ’waters of knowledge’. And the words of the sages in the –chat are heard.

              With a blessing of Shabbat Shalom, good and blessed, Noam Shaltiel Menuhin Halevi

              And a sign of the matter: For justice, there is a need for a raging storm that seeks to cut off evil. But in order to correct the world, education is needed, and here it is necessary to say to the storm of the soul ‘I will bear’. It is precisely the beauty of patience that will bring about a result that is as stable as concrete 🙂

              And

              1. Paragraph 4, line 4
                .. and the words of the wise in peace – the hearers.

  12. Unfortunately, even the Gentiles continue to argue about the righteousness of the existence of the Jewish state. This cosmic optimism of the existence of the Jewish state in the next 10,000 years does not seem plausible to me when we can collapse even in another year:
    https://yuddaaled.wordpress.com/2022/01/18/%d7%97%d7%96%d7%99%d7%95%d7%9f-%d7%9b%d7%99%d7%91%d7%95%d7%a9-%d7%94%d7%91%d7%95%d7%a8-%d7%91%d7%a7%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%94/

    1. I'm not at all optimistic, and you certainly couldn't see such optimism in the article. So I don't know what your words are aimed at.

  13. You completely lost me in the quoted passage* in which you identify Bennett as a victim of persecution and demonization.
    If I didn't attribute false consciousness to you, I would attribute stupidity or malice to you.
    Any reasonable person should easily recognize that the situation is the other way around. Bennett was slandered and patronized in an unprecedented way, far beyond his performance, only following his joining the real persecution and demonization campaign against Netanyahu, which apparently succeeded in brainwashing you as it did to many innocent members of the public.

    * “…It is impossible to deny that the intensity of the war against Bennett and his friends was completely hysterical. The war against them escalated to extreme levels. Bennett and his gang became the greatest corrupters and traitors to the Jewish people since Datan and Aviram, and the greatest slanderers since Balaam, Pharaoh and Esau. I will only mention that there was a rabbi who refused to serve water to Minister Matan Kahane. Bennett as Prime Minister was not invited to the ‘Mercaz HaRav’ yeshiva on Jerusalem Day (this is almost heresy, especially from their perspective, especially if you remember those who were invited). Incessant demonstrations, full of lies and wild and biased slander, were carried out against them and their family members, as well as ostracism in the synagogue and in the community. They were likened to the worst of humans, presented as leftists who were anti-Israel and allied with terrorists, and more. The violent and disproportionate criticism of Bennett and his group…”

    1. It is not clear whether the campaign of persecution brainwashed Miki, or Netanyahu himself. I assume you meant the latter.
      In any case, I think you found a place for his disgrace. His hatred for Netanyahu (which probably does indeed stem from the long-standing smear campaign that I assume you were referring to) spoils the line and completely confuses him.

    2. Dear friends. It is clear that you are too biased to see the end of your finger. Indeed, Bennett is being framed by the press and the left. Who said otherwise? But from the religious side he is being attacked in an unprecedented and disproportionate way. I said the second, and you point to the first. How did you see a contradiction between the two?
      It is true that the issue of logic has never been strong on that side of the identity map. But I did not despair (it was not for nothing that I bothered to write this article), and I wish you a quick and immediate improvement. So much joy.

      1. Please explain to a logic-challenged person like me,
        Why do you attribute your dislike of Bennett and Kahane to their modern religiosity? For example, I very much identify with your approach to Judaism, but I deeply despise Bennett, on professional, ethical, moral and personal grounds (in my unprofessional impression, he is a psychopath par excellence)

  14. As someone who is in religious Zionism, it seems that a large majority of the public does not truly believe in his path and is not interested in intellectual questions at all (except for matters of daily routines and Instagram, etc.) and does not adhere to Halacha when it is inconvenient, so that the group of "modern religions" that the rabbi presents is very small and lacks significant power (in relation to the other parties). Does the rabbi agree?

    1. No. A large part of those you define as lite is because they have violated Haredi criteria. A normal person who is interested in series can be a good and God-fearing Jew. It is permissible to enjoy and it is permissible and permissible to love (as the song says). But the Mustards sell us an image that anyone who is not like them is lite. Even the halacha that is not strictly observed is sometimes the Mustard Halacha. People have the feeling that it is anachronistic and therefore they are not strict.
      And despite everything I have written, there are indeed quite a few lites. But the important question is what their view is, not what they actually do. There are lite who hold to a Mustard view but are themselves weak and do not behave that way. In their eyes, a true religious person is a Mustardnik, and their proper leader is Rabbi Ariel or Rabbi Lior or Rabbi Tao. There are lite who hold to a modern view but are weak and do not behave that way themselves. Many lites are in the second category even though they are sold the first and they themselves live in a false consciousness of the first approach. I spoke to them.

  15. Hello, Rabbi. I did not mean to claim that those who watch the series are necessarily not religious, nor to disagree with the poet's words. What I meant was that (as I understand it) a large majority of the public does not claim to have any view, because they are not interested in religious questions, nor are they interested in questions and observance of Halacha, but rather observe what is convenient for them and are "on the continuum", as in the famous article - Mizrochnikim. [I am in non-Chader religious Zionism]. Also, I remember that a few years ago there was a survey in the newspaper "Mochish" regarding the observance of Halacha on various subjects and the study of Torah in religious Zionism, and the results were unflattering to say the least. I asked, did I see reality correctly, and in any case, is there a real possibility of a significant ‘modern religious’ force? What do you think?

    1. אפשר להפוך את הלייטיות לסיבה למאבק (לפ"ע) says:

      On the 1st of Elul, 2nd of September

      To the Rabbis, Shalom Rav,

      There are attempts to translate the desire for secular comfort into a struggle against the strict rabbis. For example, the struggle of the Torah faithful to grant kosher certification to cafes and restaurants open on Shabbat, which the Rabbinate refuses to grant kosher certification to a restaurant open on Shabbat.

      What are the Torahs doing? They are trickling down to the public that there is a possibility of spending Shabbat in a kosher mosque or cafe, only the rigidity of the Haredim and the Haredi prevents this kosher Shabbat spending. Initially, they tried to force the Rabbinate through the High Court to grant kosher certification to restaurants and cafes on Shabbat. When they failed, they came up with the idea of privatizing kashrut so that corporations would be found to provide kosher certification to restaurants operating on Shabbat.

      Awareness is created through public struggles that try to sell to the lay public how much the strict rabbis are harming their ability to have fun. And so on, public struggle will follow struggle, and the consciousness of identity that is distinct from the rabbinical leadership is growing stronger.

      With greetings, Ofer Badan Mellav-Moskroner (Avb)

      1. To Ofer: You are mixing up topics. Your argument deals with people's motivation. Of course, this is a bad name for liberal people, and anyone who reads the website/books knows that Rabbi Michael should not be suspected of seeking to establish "light convenience". My argument is that most (but not all) of the religious Zionist public is not interested in religious discussions and/or observance of Halacha, and therefore there is no significant "modern religious" force.

        1. Indeed, most of the public also does not adhere to the minor and major – they do not want to make an ideology out of it. In many cases, they will prefer to give their children a more Torah-based education. Even those who do not adhere to everything – will in many cases be ‘rechim rabbannen and kirk rabbannen’ and will be entitled to the building and the husband of the rabbannen. It will not help the agitators….

          With greetings, Av”m

    2. In my opinion, absolutely yes. Furthermore, there is already such a significant force. It is much larger and stronger than the mustard party, but part of it lives in a false consciousness and another part is not organized and of course also votes for secular parties (like I usually do, when I even bother to vote).

  16. To Ofer: I don't know what world you live in. In this world, most of the religious Zionist kippah wearers are admirers of TV stars and not admirers of their rabbis - strict laymen who are not committed to halakha at all, and in my opinion your claim is either naivety/denial or ignorance of reality. And again, it is wrong to assume that every liberal person is a "provocateur".
    To Rabbi Michael: Do you think the reality is different, or is it even possible to have a modern religious force?

  17. Thank you for a wonderful article. May there be more like you in Israel.

  18. On the 1st of Elul 2nd

    To the author – Hello,

    The fact that a person uttered an inappropriate statement in the era of ritha – does not disqualify any future statement of his, and each of his statements should be discussed on its merits.

    All the more so that his ritha about some of the Haredim who openly flout the instructions of health authorities during a pandemic – is very understandable. In addition to the fact that carelessness in protective measures endangers lives – it also arouses hostility in the general public towards the Haredim in particular and towards Judaism in general.

    Even Rabbi Kanievsky, who insisted that the education system should not be shut down but rather operated while maintaining small groups, ventilation, and non-overcrowding (an insight that over time became common knowledge) – ordered that in other matters, the instructions should be strictly followed even at the cost of canceling public prayer. And Rabbi Edelstein demanded that the instructions be obeyed in everything. So one can understand Ramada”a's anger at those who flouted the safety instructions.

    So it is better to conduct a substantive discussion on the substance of the booklet ’The Third Identity’, what's more, reading it in synagogues could reduce chatter and reading gossip and advertisements 🙂

    With greetings, Ofer Bedan of Lev”b-Moskroner (עבר)

    1. אתה צודק חלקית: 'מניפסט' לא אמור להיקרא בבית כנסת says:

      According to you, you are right that an 'ideological political manifesto', like most leaflets, should not be brought into or read in a synagogue, and even less so during prayer.

      In Kochav Hashachar, the rabbi of the Yishuv, Rabbi Ohad Krakower, ordered that the Shabbat leaflets be placed in a facility near the grocery store. Anyone who wants them will be taken straight home from there and enjoy them on the couch. What about newspapers in a synagogue?

      With greetings, אבעמ

  19. Where would you ‘give in’ to modernity?
    I will give an example that may not be obvious. The laws of Nida and the many deviations from it stem not only from the halakha, but also, and perhaps primarily, from a demonic perception of Nida, and the words of the Ramban are well known.
    We do not understand this perception at all.
    Would you change anything in these laws?

    1. Most of my book, "Moves Among the Standing," is devoted to these questions, as is my series of lessons on tradition, innovation, and conservatism.

    2. On the 11th of Elul, 2nd

      To Reuven, Shalom Rav,

      The restrictions and exclusions in the prohibitions of purification stem from the severity of the prohibition that involves a keret. Even the prohibition of chametz on Passover has many restrictions due to its being a keret prohibition. All the more so when dealing with the sexual urge, which is strong. It seems that modern man also has an urge, and therefore it too needs to be protected.

      With blessings, Shmariahu Shlomo Halevi Kanafy

  20. אכן כדאי שלא יפיצו את הקונטרס באומן לבל יקראוהו הקוזאקים says:

    Indeed, there is reason to fear that the Cossacks will find in Ramda”a's words a justification for riots, especially since they also consider themselves Orthodox 🙂 Therefore, it seems reasonable to refrain from distributing the pamphlet in Uman!

    Best regards, Hope Cossack

  21. On second thought, although among religious liberals one can see less connection to Torah study, there is certainly a large public that sees itself as God-fearing, in the sense of halakhic commitment, but only feels bound to its conservative brother.

  22. I didn't understand the following sentence -
    “There is almost no central religious-Zionist rabbi or thinker who argues against the ultra-Orthodox who oppose Zionism in the name of modern values (how do you deny modern values such as nationalism, democracy, etc.?!)”

    After all, Rabbi Kook (and where probably all the religious-Zionist rabbis come from) speaks explicitly about the national idea as something that expresses man's aspiration to live in society.
    The national idea is of course not taken from some “religious law”, but rather it is a modern psychological process in humanity.

    How is it possible that you claim that the &#8221religious Zionist” is disconnected from modernity when it is entirely absorbed by the teachings of Rabbi Kook.

    You can check out Rabbi Sherki's website, where he expands on the ideas:
    http://ravsherki.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1662:q-16621662-1662&catid=57&Itemid=100513

    1. This is empty talk. In the end, Rabbi Kook also explained that everything begins and ends in the Torah, and at most he found good things outside that returned and illuminated the source from the Torah for him. With his students, this is even more pronounced. These are empty slogans. Every new value is anchored in Torah sources at the end and explains that we or the Torah knew it in advance (but perhaps it has disappeared from us over the years). I wrote about it briefly in the article as well. Today, there is no prominent rabbi in religious Zionism who would make these claims against the Haredi.
      I think you are confusing disconnection from modernity with drawing from it. The Rabbi was not disconnected from it but did not draw from it, meaning he did not rely on modernity as a basis that gives validity to something. And his students are certainly like that. Go out and study Torah writings on democracy. Everyone will explain to you how deeply rooted it is in our tradition (and in my opinion it really is not), and not that it is morally appropriate because it is appropriate and that is it. We learned it from the world.
      It's like saying that a religious person is not a thief, because if he is a thief, he is not religious. Similarly, there is no value that is not in the Torah, because if it is not in the Torah, it is not a value.

  23. I don't know what it means that “Rabbi Kook believed that everything begins and ends with the Torah” in our context.
    I explicitly mentioned the national idea that is mentioned in the article “On the Course of Ideas in Israel”

    “On the Course of Ideas in Israel” begins like this:

    “The lifestyle and style of thought of man, which include his entire essence, are fully revealed in the idea of society and in the spiritual idea, which are the treasures of the national and religious form that
    human beings have. . . . . The national idea . . . as the orderly lifestyle of society”

    I don't see that “Torah” is mentioned here, and certainly not anything related to halakha. He speaks in general about humanity, and this is completely clear to anyone who reads the quote I provided.
    And certainly all the religious Zionist rabbis (Rabbi Sharki, Rabbi Lundin, Rabbi Melamed, Rabbi Druckman, etc.) mean and speak exactly this way.

    If Rabbi Kook's article had opened with “The national interest the people of Israel aspire to from their Holy Torah because in our Holy Torah are found all the commandments that depend on the land”,
    then the truth would have been with you.

    But what can be done – This is absolutely not so. Moreover, it is even the opposite. Rabbi Kook claims that it was precisely in the Diaspora that the intensive engagement with the Torah led to the forgetting of the national interest.

    Forgive me for being so blunt, but your article is simply inaccurate (to put it mildly), at least according to the quote I provided. I think it is quite clear that this is so.

    I will leave you and the readers here a link to the idea movement in Israel, please take a moment to read it (I believe you have read it before), and think for a moment whether it is perhaps worth correcting what you wrote:
    https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9A_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%99%D7%93%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C

    1. שתי האידיאות קיימות גם בתורה וגם בכלל נאנושות (לאר"ש) says:

      To the land of Israel, peace be upon you

      It is clear that the divine idea and the national idea exist in all their diversity. The Torah as the ’order of the world’ proposes a suitable combination between them, a solid and prosperous kingdom that will at the same time be a ‘kingdom of priests and a holy nation’ founded on ‘righteous laws and judgments’.

      Modernity has strengthened a third idea, man's desire for freedom and self-realization. Here too, the Torah has something to offer. It is precisely the insight of ‘when I am to myself –what am I’ and of man being a divine messenger destined to bring goodness and blessing to the world – that gives man a unique meaning. It takes him from being a ‘crumb’ Worthless or a mere ‘blossom’ leaf, making him part of the ’legion of a king’.

      With regards, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel”r

    2. I think this discussion is empty apologetics. Take any essay on democracy and Judaism, etc., and you will see that the value in it is based on Torah sources and not on the very perception that this is appropriate. Including those rabbis you mentioned and many others. As I wrote in the column, these recommendations and declarations certainly exist, but they are a dead letter. And in my opinion, even with the Rabbi himself, they were not really like that. It is clear that he spoke about beautiful and good ideas everywhere in the world, and this is one of the famous ones. Therefore, the quotes you cite here are not needed. There are many more like them. From several places it is clear that he saw in all of these an expression of the Torah, which sometimes has been lost from us and is found there. As I wrote to you above, to the best of my understanding, he did not base the validity of external values on the mere fact that they are appropriate, but at most they enlighten our eyes to discover another element of the Torah.
      But this discussion about Rabbi Kook is unnecessary. I do not wish to enter into a study of his teachings here. This is certainly the case with most of the others (and in my opinion with him as well). After all, I wrote in the article itself that he said ‘The old will be renewed and the new will be sanctified’ and other such phrases. This is exactly the tension between the slogans and the actual conduct, which is completely the opposite.
      So I really don't see where and what I went wrong and I don't see any need to correct it. My description is completely accurate.

      1. We will agree to disagree, I left the quotes. Readers are invited to read The Movement of Ideas in Israel, and judge for themselves.

        Another question –

        Is there any advantage to the ”third identity”?

        You presented two modern concepts that are positive in hindsight: nationalism and democracy.

        But what happens with “modern religious” flowing with modern concepts that are a little less good for us –
        For example, cosmopolitanism (no borders and no nationalism) or “family is also father and father or father and father and mother or father and father and dog”. There are concepts today that are very modern. And a family of father and father, as far as I understand, does not contradict any explicit commandment in the Torah (as long as they do not sin in a male relationship)

        So who said, for example, that a “modern religious” with a third identity that says “nationalism and democracy” is better than a “modern religious” that says “cosmopolitanism and a family of father and father”?

        I see a very big problem with the concept of modern religious.

        1. This is not a question of advantage or disadvantage. The question is what values do you believe in. I am talking about an identity that is not necessarily shared in all its values, but the common side for everyone is that their ”external” values are part of their religious perception. What are those values? That is debatable. If you think that cosmopolitanism is something bad, then you have an argument with your religious-modern colleague regarding this value, but you do not have an argument about the very introduction of external values into your religious perception. It is like there are disputes in halacha, there may also be value disputes. This does not concern modernity.
          And this is to be understood, I do not in any way intend to claim that everything that is a modern value is necessarily true. I am only claiming that it is not necessarily wrong (just because its source is external). Will I necessarily accept every progressive or simply ‘enlightened’ nonsense just because it is popular in the modern world? Absolutely not. Because of abortion, conversion therapy, targeted killings, progressivism, and so on. These are all problematic modern values. So I have an argument with those who hold them, but it has nothing to do with being modern.
          And one last comment. In many cases, groups that hold such problematic values are used as an attack on modernity. That is why it is so popular among the mustard-seed to attack progressivism and, through it, Western culture in general. But Western culture is not necessarily progressive. On the contrary, most of the Western world really does not believe in the extreme expressions of progressivism. Just as it is wrong to attack the religious because Yigal Amir murdered Rabin or because there are extremists who do problematic things.

          1. Sorry, again you are simply wrong and misleading.
            The Jewish people (of course the people and the religion are not the same thing) do collect values from the Gentiles (and from the entire world).
            This is called raising sparks. Lots of national religious rabbis talk about it.
            Here is an example from Rabbi Sherki:
            https://ravsherki.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8316:2021-04-02-06-57-13&catid=605&Itemid=100513

            Factually the Jewish people learn a lot from the scientific fields of the Gentiles. For example, among “religious Zionists” (Among others, I) accept the understanding that the theory of evolution is correct, and this is because objective scientific investigation and the desire to verify them are represented by science, a value that has been accepted by many “religious Zionists” following the upgrade that has occurred in science in recent decades/hundreds of years.

            I apologize, I just think you are a little confused, and it is a shame that you are confusing.

            So after I proved that you were completely wrong that ”there is no Zionist rabbi who teaches values that are external”, I will say something else:

            This entire article is made up of scarecrows, and all kinds of manipulations that make you present what you are trying to convey in a way that is convenient for you, so that your thesis will seem logical.

            I gave earlier the example that you deliberately chose the values of “nationalism” and – “Democracy” to present the ”modern religious” as a positive thing. When in reality the reality is much, much more complex (you only mentioned this in passing).

            If I summarize:
            A. The article is simply misleading (proven in the first response).
            B. Even where it is not misleading, the author of the article makes life easy for himself in order to highlight his thesis. It is just like me putting a basketball hoop in the yard at a height of one and a half meters, in order to say that I “succeed in dunking”. And indeed I succeeded in dunking. Well done!

            1. Tell me, are you sure you're real? It seems like a troll. It's very difficult to discuss with a person who lacks minimal comprehension, who jumps from question to question and after finishing and moving on to another question returns to the previous one and does not address the new one. I assume that your next message will discuss the murder of Arlozorov.
              We started with a discussion about whether there are Jewish rabbis who adopt gentile values or base their values on the Torah. You "proved" to me that there are, and I explained to you that you are absolutely wrong. Then you put this question to the readers and concluded that we would remain without agreement. Good. Then you moved on to another question: what is the advantage or disadvantage of a modern identity. I explained to you that here too you are formulating an irrelevant question.
              Seeing that you have no way of addressing the new question in a substantive way, you suddenly jumped back to the question that you had summarized and repeated the same nonsense with the addition of a new, glorious nonsense: learning evolution from gentiles.
              So I will end this delusional discussion with a few questions: What is the connection between adopting scientific information and adopting values? Is evolution a value? What is this confusion? And this without entering into the discussion of who and how many Jewish rabbis embrace evolution. And did I say anywhere that science or information is not learned from Gentiles? What does this prove about drawing Gentile values, which is the subject of our discussion here?
              In short, if by your standards I am confused, then I am probably on the right track. Good luck to you.

              1. On the 11th of Elul, the 5th of B

                What to do? The people of Israel preceded the Western world in its world of values by thousands of years. The more we search for contemporary values that have no roots in the Torah, the harder it will be to find them. After all, the Bible is one of the foundations of the world of faith and values of the contemporary cultural world.

                Who coined the concept that “in the image of God He created man”? The Bible. Who instilled the idea that education should be the inheritance of all? The Torah that commanded “recite it to your children,” the prophets who set forth the vision of “and all your children to be taught by God.” And Joshua ben Gamla, who first amended the world's ‘Compulsory Education Law’.

                Who set forth the vision of world peace, in which all the Gentiles would unite to learn the Torah of the ’ until they learn war and beat their swords into plowshares? – The prophets. Who brought the world the idea of the weekly day of rest? – The Torah. For more than a thousand years, the Gentiles mocked the Jews ‘Dempki kolli shata besha”yi fe”yi’.

                We have no reason to underestimate the contribution of Judaism to the moral progress of the world. We will acknowledge modernity for the scientific inclusions and methods of social organization it has developed, but we will be careful not to lose the compass of the Torah.

                We will not accept from modernity the self-delusion of ’my strength and the might of my hand’. We believe in ’modesty to walk with your God’. We will not accept from modernity the permissiveness of the instinct, but we will proudly carry ‘You shall not covet’ and ’You shall not follow after your heart and your eyes’.

                We will excel in freedom but not in lawlessness, so that we will not become a strong man who sought to be honored by his father's disgrace and lost his freedom. We will acknowledge the gratitude of Yifah for the broadening of horizons that his culture brought to the world, but we will dwell in the tents of Shem, who proudly stand for the faith of the Torah and its values.

                With blessings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel”

              2. First of all, I ask that you forgive me for the way I expressed myself, and I ask that you state this here so that I may be calm, because we are approaching the Great Tribulation.

                And to your question, – Yes, we learn at least one value from evolution.
                You are invited to watch, for example, the following lesson by Rabbi Sharki (5 minutes):
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNepkgFn6w

                In a nutshell:
                A. The value of improvement, progress and development – As the world develops, so should we.
                B. The value of unity, everything is united – everything is in God. This is a concept called panentheism.

                Here is another example: enlightenment.
                There is no doubt that the issue of enlightenment (“wisdom of externals”) is something that has really begun to catch on among the Gentiles, and is also affecting religious Jews.
                Here it is quite clear what value it gives.
                And again, this is another example of how even religious Zionists like me do draw “from the outside world”.

                A third example: livelihood. The ability to earn a living independently and with dignity.
                If you visit high-tech companies, you will find lots and lots of classic Haredi women (and I am not talking about national religious women, which is a big deal) who work as programmers. It is impossible to say that this is not a result of the influence of “external wisdom”

                That is why I write (and I have noticed that others also write) that from your article one can mistakenly understand that religious Zionists (or even Haredim) are completely closed to the outside world.

                I apologize again for my statement, and ask that you forgive me here in public.

              3. Everything is forgiven. I don't see any harm or problem that requires forgiveness. I was angry about the form of the discussion, not about being harmed.
                The value of improvement is learned from evolution? Are you serious? It reminds me of all the "values" that are learned from the Torah: humility, honoring parents, charity, etc. Everyone learns from it what their heart desires and what they would have done anyway. Tell me one thing that you wouldn't have done without learning it from the Torah. Also regarding the values you brought here, you need to present values that have no source in the Torah or just in common sense, but rather you drew them from the Gentiles and that's why you do them.
                The values you brought here are trivial that are not learned from nowhere. They are self-evident. I'm talking about non-trivial values, such as equality for women, treatment of homosexuals, Gentiles, democracy, freedom of expression, and the like. It is very easy to “learn from the Gentiles” values that you yourself already uphold.
                Education is derived from the external world, not the value of education.
                The same applies to livelihood. This is truly stated in the Talmud.
                The fact that the Haredi go to work is not a result of values, but of constraints.
                Beyond all this, I myself claim that they learn a lot from the Gentiles, they just don’t admit it.
                I never claimed anywhere that people are closed to the external world. Not even the Haredi. There are influences on all of us, including in the field of values, the question is whether we admit it and see it as legitimate, or whether we debunk a Torah source for all these values in order to give them legitimacy.

              4. On the 12th of Elul, February 2nd

                To the Lord,

                The examples you gave of accepting values from the Gentiles are not successful. The idea of the world progressing from a state of chaos and corruption to a state of correction is an idea that the entire Torah is full of.

                Starting with the story of creation, which grows from the simple to the more complex, from the inanimate to the plant, and from there to the moving, to the living, and finally to man, who has both material qualities, but also a spiritual “image of God.”

                But the Torah teaches that growth is not linear, but may come in processes of fall and correction. The generation of the flood failed, and from it Noah grows. You fail again in the generation of division that brought division, and then Abraham grows up who aspires to unite the world by calling on the name of God and by doing righteousness and justice.

                Abraham's seed fails in hatred of his brothers, and falls into exile and slavery in Egypt, the "iron furnace" from which the people will be hardened to receive the Torah and the land. And even when the people reach the inheritance - they fail and go into exile, but the Torah and the prophets promise that in the last days there will be a correction. Not only will the people return to their God and their land, but it will bring about the correction and unification of all of humanity.

                Therefore, Rabbi Kook was really enthusiastic about the hypothesis of evolution, which showed that nature also progresses through a chain of malfunctions ("mutations" in Hebrew) that bring creation to hardening and perfection.

                And he followed in the footsteps of Maharal in Netzach Yisrael, Chapter 3, who determined that the world was created as a deficient reality, to which the Creator adds abundance that gradually completes the deficiency. See Professor Benjamin Gross' book, An Imperfect World Towards Responsible Freedom.

                The value of work and craft is also deeply rooted in the Torah. The first man was destined to work the land and preserve it and to be a shepherd and leader of the living world. The patriarchs were shepherds, and among them was Isaac, who worked the land. And the people of Israel inherited the land in order to cultivate and preserve it.

                Even King Solomon often speaks in praise of the diligent tiller of the soil: “Wisdom is good with an inheritance,” and the sages say: “It is beautiful to study Torah with a path of the earth (= labor), for the attainment of both makes one forget sin, for all Torah without labor is ultimately futile and leads to sin.”

                The sages also dealt with the wisdom of nature that leads to the perfection of the world. Some of them dealt with astronomy, and some with medicine. Many of the first also dealt with the sciences, and the Rambam earned a worldwide reputation in the fields of medicine and philosophy, and part of his medical teaching, the emphasis on nutrition, a healthy lifestyle, and mental balance over physical health, is still considered a cornerstone in the teaching of medicine today.

                In short:
                The Torah gives us values in abundance. The Gentiles sometimes remind us of what we forgot in the tumult of time, and they add scientific knowledge and techniques of social order. For example, Moses learned from his father the necessity of delegating authority, and in this his Creator agreed with him.

                With greetings, Matanya Hai Kimelman-Shiloh

              5. The distinction between general human ideas that can be accepted from the sages of the nations, and ideas that are unique to the people of Israel and are not ‘equal to every soul’ – is explained in the article ‘Thoughts’ in the ’Following the Sheep’ by Rabbi Kook. Perhaps you will be given a link to Rabbi Uri Sharki's lessons for this article!

                Best regards, Sh”ak

              6. In response to ‘Wisdom among the Gentiles, believe…’

                Paragraph 3, line 3
                … Again, humanity has failed in the sin of the generation of the fleet…

                Paragraph 5, line 2
                … That the world must be created…

                Paragraph 7, line 4
                … Emphasizing the effect of nutrition…

                Paragraph 8, line 5
                … Adding scientific knowledge…

  24. The word "Zionism" originally meant a return to Zion and the building of a national home for the Jewish people on this piece of land. The emphasis was on building a sovereign and secure political entity that would serve as a home and refuge for every Jew. Religious Zionism added another layer with religious value to the word "Zionism" that also included the commandment to settle the land within the borders promised by God, even if another people also resided within these borders, with all the problems that stem from that. The fault line between original Zionism and religious Zionism is very deep and is actually characterized today as the fault line between right and left. In my opinion, it is appropriate that religious Judaism, which you describe as "modern", also pay attention to this fault line and not automatically lean to the right side of the map. The fact that the majority of the religious public votes for "right-wing" parties It bothers me because it probably means that the religious perception somehow (perhaps unconsciously) shapes the political and security perception, even though there should ostensibly be no connection between them.

    1. It is not for nothing that I did not go into the questions of right and left. As far as I am concerned, these are open questions, and in my opinion they are not and should not be at the core of religious identity. If you advocate for the left, shame on you. Whoever advocates for the right will be ashamed of himself too. In my opinion, neither of these are related to the discussion.
      Incidentally, the correlation between religiosity and the right is not necessarily based on political and security perceptions, but rather the opposite: such a person will tell you that because of the sanctity of the land and the duty to occupy it, I have become right-wing. And this is even if I factually believe that a compromise will bring peace. The correlation between religious beliefs and values and security perceptions is a fictitious correlation (although it does exist), and you can find several places here on the site where I have dealt with it and insisted that it is truly a logical error and dishonesty. There is no reason to say that I oppose the transfer of territories for religious reasons, and at the same time to claim that the transfer of territories will bring peace. And vice versa, of course. The fact that there is a correlation between these two questions indicates dishonesty. By the way, the same dishonesty is present in you, of course. The moment you abandon your religious commitment, you become a leftist. So the exact same criticism that you direct at the religious right can be directed at you.

      1. “By the way, the same dishonesty is also present in you, of course. The moment you abandon your religious commitment, you become a leftist” – Where did you get this nonsense? You don't know me and you claim that I am a leftist and dishonest because I abandoned my religious commitment. Nonsense – There is no connection between the two. Among the secular, the division into right and left is not clear for either side. There are a great many right-wing seculars, perhaps more than left-wing seculars. Among the religious, there is a statistically significant deviation to the right. The situation is not symmetrical, and if there is dishonesty, it is much more pronounced on the religious side. All the religious people I know and have had the opportunity to argue with about right-left issues justify their right-wing position with political and security considerations, not religious considerations.
        “Such a person will tell you that because of the sanctity of the land and the duty to conquer it, I will become a right-winger” – As I mentioned in my responses to other posts, a person's faith is supposed to end at the end of his nose. He cannot harm others because of his faith. The settlements constitute a huge burden on the state and are also supported by the tax money of leftists. Their defense is also required of leftist soldiers and their existence causes a deep rift in the people. If the justification were purely political and security-related, I may not have had any complaints, but if it is religious – then even a martyr has the justification to blow himself up on a bus because that is what his faith commands him to do, in his opinion.

        1. Maybe if you try to read and understand what I said for a change, you will be more successful. You are attacking claims that you yourself invented. Inventing accusations that did not exist and were not created, and thinking that a partial quote is proof of something. It is difficult for me to discuss this. Shabbat Shalom

  25. Rabbi Aviner told me that he definitely agrees that there are values that are outside the Torah and certainly accepts them, for example, he is happy and accepts the Cartesian criticism, but of course he rejects Spinoza's heretical issues.

    1. That's what I'm saying too. And I responded to it extensively (search in the comments for “I'm just asking”)
      That's why I can't understand the article at all that talks about a “religious Zionist” who doesn't suck up values outside the Torah.
      There really is no such animal – not even at the declarative level, and certainly not at the level of the totality (maybe a little bit of the extremes of Mount Moriah, but that's on the order of a few dozen, if at all).

      And even among most Haredim at the level of the totality it's clear that they suck up from the outside world (even if at the level of the declaration it didn't come out)

      I don't understand the whole thing.

  26. Why is the manifesto almost undivided into sections?

    All the questions and answers at the end appear as one block…

  27. I didn't understand the question. It's divided into chapters and paragraphs within each chapter. The questions at the end are a collection of short questions and answers, and I don't understand what the problem you saw there.

    1. I meant the manifesto on the website, which appears in one block without being divided into sections, which is a shame.

      1. On the 12th of Elul, February 2nd

        To Izzie, greetings,

        It seems that writing without interruption indicates great pressure, a desire to unload a heavy burden that rests on the soul and is waiting to burst out. In such a situation, there is no patience to maintain a ‘distance between herds.

        Several Torah passages that describe being in an unbearable situation from which one wishes to escape as quickly as possible – are written in such a way that it does not leave the reader ‘breathing space’.

        Thus the three chapters of the Flood (Genesis 6:13-8:15) are folded into one passage. Thus, from Jacob's departure from Beersheba until his return to the camps, the twenty years in Beit Lavan (28:10-33:3) are read in one passage. Jacob has no breath, he just wants to ‘finish and go’

        And so Joseph is restless from the moment he leaves prison until nine years later when he puts his brothers to the test, they have abandoned their brothers again (Genesis 1:1-44:17) - he finds no peace in his anxiety about whether they will stand the test and correct their sin or not.

        In contrast, Balak, who is stressed in the face of the people who threaten him, cannot hold his breath until he finally receives Balaam's advice, after which he will breathe a sigh of relief and go on his way with a ‘plan to solve the problem’ (Numbers 22:2-24:25).

        And for our sake, we would recommend that Ramada adopt the path of Kobe Bryant, who would rush to the basket in a storm, but at the moment of the shot he was calm and focused. Peace of mind and contemplation between steps – are the virtues to be saved from reckless and hasty actions. And as we have learned from the hypothesis of evolution – processes of ascension occur in a gradual manner.

        With blessings of return and rest, Noam Shaltiel Menuhin Halevi

      2. Thanks for the comment. For some reason we transferred from PDF to Word and didn't notice the distortions that occurred. I've now corrected it a bit, and I hope it's improved.

  28. If I understand correctly, the rabbi claims that if the modern Orthodox public had a more organized ideological mishna and perhaps also rabbinical figures around whom they could unite, they would be more distinct. However, the truth is that there have already been and are still rabbis today who fit the description of the modern Orthodox rabbi quite perfectly and who also have a coherent ideological mishna around the subject - Rabbi Amital, Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Rabinowitz, may the righteous be blessed, and today there is Rabbi Medan and I am sure there are many more.

    I think that part of the reason that a large public does not form around these rabbis and their mishna is structured (at least partially), is because:
    A. In circles such as the students of the rabbis or the Haredim, there is great respect for rabbis in general and therefore it is easy to unite around them as public leaders. However, the rabbis I described are averse to reverence and see themselves as ordinary people, which makes it difficult for a large public to unite around them and follow their teachings.
    B. Another parameter that the rabbi did not address in the article is the very importance of the Torah in life in relation to other values. In societies that do not have too many worlds of content outside the Torah anyway, the unifying figures are rabbis and the unifying contents are Torah traditions. However, for people who have other worlds of content, the Torah is not always the main thing in their lives and it is not what they unite around, and in any case it is difficult to create some kind of religiously distinct group like that.

    I would love to know if the rabbi agrees with the analysis (even if it is simplistic), and if not, why the rabbi thinks there is no unity around the existing Modern Orthodox figures and traditions and what needs to be changed for this to happen.

    1. You are partially right. But that cannot be the whole explanation, because even if they do not unite around the rabbis, such an identity should have been created among the people independently. And the fact is that many of them have rabbinical figures (even if they themselves are light), and these are the conservative rabbis. Beyond that, the fact that they have additional worlds of content is the identity that is not created, and therefore the question remains. Who created an identity that believes in multiple worlds of content. Therefore, I argue that the blame lies mainly with the rabbis, including those you mentioned, who did not refine and realize for themselves and others that this is a third identity. They all continue to speak in terms of religious-Zionism, and hence the discourse about divisions and unity in the camp. They did not put this religious option on the table as an alternative identity and did not separate it from the religious-Zionist identity.
      Beyond that, as I wrote in the article, the separation from rabbis in this community is not always essential. Part of it stems from people not being willing to accept the rabbinical figures that are presented to them (because they are conservative). If such an option were put on the table by like-minded rabbis, I suspect more people would follow them.

  29. Hello Rabbi Michi,

    I am continuing the discussion of (“I am just asking”) from another place in the comments.
    Just summarizing a line from before: I gave 3 examples of external things that can influence the values of a religious-Zionist (and even an ultra-Orthodox):

    A. Learning a value from the theory of evolution.
    B. The need to acquire an education (and not just the acquisition of education).
    C. The need to make a living according to trends in the world.

    You cast doubt on what I wrote. Below is my response.

    Regarding evolution –
    I will simply quote Rabbi Kook who shows how one can strengthen one's values as a result of studying this theory.
    So yes, I am completely serious when I wrote that values of unity, optimism and development can be learned from this theory (me and also Rabbi Lundin, Rabbi Sherki, etc., etc., etc.):

    “Development that follows the path of ascension, it provides the optimistic foundation in the world, because how can one despair when one sees that everything is developing and ascending. And when we penetrate the innermost nature of the element of ascending development, we find in it the divine matter illuminated with absolute clarity, that there is no end in practice, the Creator is the one who brings into effect what is endless in power”. (Orot Hakodesh 2, Torat Hattishvili, p. 17, 1938).

    Regarding the value of enlightenment (and not enlightenment itself) –
    It is clear that this is an external influence that even religious Zionists (and even Haredim) absorb.
    Fact: In our time, Gentiles have begun to populate colleges and universities (in the past, the percentage of educated people was much lower, and education was sometimes only for special individuals).
    And the same thing happens with the Jewish people - religious-Zionist Jews are going to study "external wisdom" in colleges and universities (and such a trend is also beginning among the Haredi, see "Haredi colleges").
    Z, not only do they absorb the education itself from Gentiles, but they absorb the value and importance of becoming educated and studying external wisdom.

    Regarding livelihood - here too it is clear that religious Zionists also make a living in accordance with global trends. For example, more people with “liberal professions”, high-tech, capitalism, etc.’. And oh, here too we see external influences of global trends on religious Zionists and even on Haredi (like the example I gave about Haredi programmers).

    If I wrote something that is not true, I would love to know what is not true – I clearly show that external influences actually change the world of the religious, including things of value.

    1. If you don't see for yourself why the examples you gave mean nothing, then there's really no point in just repeating myself. I'm done.

      1. Wait, if you please, let's focus on one value. In the previous response you wrote:
        “Enlightenment is derived from the external world, not the value of enlightenment”.
        That is, between the lines you agreed that there is such a thing as the “value of enlightenment” (only you thought that it was not learned from modernity)

        Didn't I show that the trends among religious Zionists show that they derive the value of enlightenment from modernity?

        If you agree, then I did. Why doesn't it mean anything?
        Why does the value of ”democracy” mean something, but the value of enlightenment doesn't mean anything?

        1. שאו מרום עיניכם וראו מי ברא אלה - ערך ההתבוננות בפלאי הבריאה (לאר"ש) says:

          In the book of Acts, it is written:

          The call to contemplate the wonders of creation appears in the Scriptures, as in the words of David: ‘When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have established’ and in the words of Isaiah: ‘Lift up your eyes on high and see who created these’. Our father Abraham found in the lawfulness of creation evidence ‘that there is a leader for the capital’. Even the Rambam wrote that by contemplating the wonders of creation, man will come to love and fear God.

          Modernity has led to a reaction in this regard, because ‘fools have corrupted’ To claim that the perfection of the ’machine’ called ‘world’ allows one to claim that everything is done for granted, and therefore there were many who feared God who were reluctant to engage in science, but the &#8216Torah with Derech Eretz’ men restored the glory of their old ways and showed that a scientist could be a believer and faithful to the Torah.

          With blessings, Amoz Yaron Schnitzel”R

          Some of the values of democracy were shaped by the Torah, which required the consent of the entire nation to make a covenant at Sinai with God and stipulated ‘after many to be led astray’. Even King Rehoboam was advised by the elders to listen to the will of the people, so that they would accept our wishes, and the sages instructed that “no one should place a provision for the public unless they are ruled by the public.”

          In the kingdom of Israel, there is a balance of authority: “You shall not set over you a king whose terror will be upon you,” along with the requirement that the king “not exalt his heart above his brothers.” I hope that the modern world will learn this blessed balance from us.

          1. Many of the values in the Torah have parallels among the nations, whether inspired by the Bible or by reason. The innovation in the Torah is in the balanced mix between opposing aspirations, in which the Torah, the “order of the world” (as defined by the Maharal), gives each side the dosage and scope it deserves.

            I mentioned the King’s Parsha, which has a balance between firmness and humility, the encouragement of enlightenment in nature, together with the Torah, which brings knowledge and values from a prophetic source that is higher than human reason. The Torah considers a person’s property and right to enjoy the fruits of his labor, but it also obliges a person to help those who have not been successful in life, and much more.

            With greetings, Yaron Fishel Ordner

        2. You are mixing up the facts with the Mishnah and the theory. Everyone is influenced by their environment, including the most extreme Haredim. In this sense, everyone is ‘modern’. The question is whether they are aware of and admit this or try to anchor it in the sources, and of course also minimize it as much as possible. The question is what place and what weight they give to such values. But I am really done.

  30. Rabbi Michael, indeed something is not right in the common definitions of Haredim and Da'tal that have served us for many years, but the central argument in the booklet tends to make too sharp divisions that do not suit the more complex mindsets of the people.

    There are two main points:

    A. Ultimately, there is a very significant division between the so-called Haredim and the so-called Da'tal, including the so-called Haredi part. In the Haredi part, freedom of thought is clearly and practically limited, and in the Haredi part - for the most part - it is perhaps limited in significant ways in practice (as it may be limited in any ideological group. Anyone who looks at the state of freedom of thought in broad wings on the left will understand this), but in most high yeshivahs (and not just Hesder yeshivahs) anyone can hold almost any book on the table in open arms. You can even find a center or a Beit El, etc. Your books, Rabbi Bezeq's and other books that anyone who would place on their table or even under their bed in a Haredi yeshiva would be thrown out on the spot and enter a different status of matchmaking. Therefore, it is very easy to claim that the Haredim and the Haredim are the same thing. But they are not. Even if there are significant points of contact. In this context, the point of Zionism is actually an expression of a fundamental point that renounces conservatism as an iron principle even if it does not renounce it as an important principle. Following Zionism is an expression of a willingness to have a complex approach to the very challenging historical events that have occurred in the last two hundred years.

    B. The issue of modernity is deceptive. Because the question is whether we are talking about it at the level of content or at the level of a source of authority that is very high in the hierarchy (sometimes perhaps even above the Torah? I don't know and it is not clear to me). Many people in the religious community and in the hard-line community feel identification with many modern contents and even identification with fundamental ideas of modern culture such as freedom, etc. But from their perspective, modernity is not part of the hierarchy. Judaism, in the broad sense, but as it is, let's say, "in the spirit of Yisrael Saba," is what is most important to them. Not that there are no fundamental and deep disagreements regarding the attitude towards modernity. There are. But it is possible that for the absolute majority of the religious community, even those who are not hard-line, the above principle regarding hierarchy is very fundamental, especially in the mental aspect. From such a mental position, no less than they have difficulty with the conservative positions of rabbis who are called hard-line, they have difficulty with the liberal positions of those who arouse difficulty and concern in them regarding this fundamental principle.

    And in truth, the attitude of quite a few figures in the liberal religious world towards this issue, towards the question of hierarchy and the place that the Torah and Judaism occupy within this whole story, is not clear enough.

    1. A. I think it's not significant. It's a question of dosages, and such differences also exist within the Haredi world. These days, Belz is introducing core studies, Gur is not, and the Lithuanians are fighting against it with fury. Therefore, it only means that there are shades within Harediism. Indeed. It's completely clear. Identity lines and watershed lines are not built on differences in dosage. That's why I gave a test like the voting test, where you'll see that there is no significant difference.
      B. I don't accept the term source of validity in relation to modernity. Modernity is not a source of validity, but at most a source of inspiration. After inspiration, I have values that I have adopted (and those that I have not), and I give them a place in my religious understanding. By the way, this hierarchy is also incorrect in my opinion, and it's important to clarify that this is a legitimate option because I think there are quite a few who will join as soon as this is clarified. I don't see an unambiguous hierarchy between values and halakha, and in my opinion it's part of modernity.
      This interface does indeed need to be clarified, and that's part of what I wanted to do. Of course, as I wrote in a booklet like this, it's really impossible to do so. So I settled for saying that there is a regular Mishnah, and it's detailed in the trilogy and on the website.

      1. A. I don't understand the response. I was talking about the *freedom of thought* thing. The fact that Belz is introducing rabbinical studies is nice, but the Hasidic community in Belz has no freedom of thought, and anyone who holds a slightly incorrect book on the table in a courtroom will find themselves in serious trouble. And that's not the case in almost any ‘Orthodox’ courtroom or in families of this type.

        B. I'm really not familiar with the worldview in the trilogy and the website, and I would be happy for some text that describes it in a relatively concentrated and concise manner. In any case, even the sentence according to which you “do not see an unambiguous hierarchy between values and halacha, and in my opinion, it is part of modernity” It is one that, in the end, is a good situation that many of those who are not part of the ultra-Orthodox public will feel comfortable with. That is what my intuition says. And as I said, I would be happy for some kind of text that would allow us to get to know the foundations of the view you are talking about.

  31. A manifesto by Rabbi Michael Avraham entitled “The Third Identity”, about modern religious identity, has been circulating online for several days. It will also be distributed in synagogues on the next Shabbat, and on his Facebook page there is a request to help distribute the booklet in question to those interested in the subject.
    He opens with a charming parable that actually demonstrates how much we cling to the identity of “black” and ”white”, when it is a false identity, irrelevant to the way we live our lives. He shows how clinging to black and white is a title empty of content that tries to feed itself. His parable is truly wonderful and sarcastic, and to my mind (and this is my understanding and interpretation) shows exactly how ideological package deals fall apart and crumble, and are not only irrelevant but fundamentally untrue. The person finds himself obligated to represent some ideological agenda by virtue of being a member of the white or black sector, when in fact he really does not think, feel, and behave that way.
    So far so good.
    From here on, a proposal begins to adopt a green identity. No longer black and white, but green! The green identity is demonstrated and detailed in the article in question. The reading is pleasant and fluent as usual. However, in the end, in my opinion, there is the same lady in a different dress.
    I simply did not understand what the article is proposing.
    Are the failures described there just something small that is distilled from a cosmetic change in a few points? It is only the black and white that is problematic and now we will concoct something green and everything will be fine? Or is the very thought that the person will define himself, his identity, through some party agenda the thought that we should discuss?
    It seems as if the desperate need to define identity through a sectoral movement creates some kind of ‘obligation’ to quickly create a new basket that will define who we are and what we are.
    Why exactly?
    Maybe if black and white is falling apart, then we can be called to be businesslike and attentive in every area that comes up on the agenda. And what if I am partly green and partly I think differently, then I will open a green sector? What is the message and where is its benefit? I searched and thought that maybe the article was aimed at politics, but no, it is emphasized there that it is a concern with identities and not with politics.
    So I ask, what is the pressure to quickly create an up-to-date customer club? Can't you simply release this kind of discourse and adopt language that doesn't deal with your party or your incubator?
    I think the discussion it raises there is extremely important. And in my opinion, an opening is opened here to completely release this way of thinking that forces a person to decide “who” he is. This leads to the person shooting from the hip and automatically pulling out responses to every situation when he responds in the name of the party/sector through which he identifies himself, to the point where it sometimes closes his eyes from seeing and his ears from hearing because what is important to discuss something substantively when the only question is whether he is included in the package deal that my customer club subscribes to or not.
    It is impossible to discuss social questions, questions of the work of God, religion and state, equality of women and men, punishment for terrorists, and shmita, traveling to Uman during wartime, and the attitude towards the late Queen of England, about this or that workshop, about specific treatment in some educational institution, about core studies and screening students, about the way to pray, about the attitude towards foreigners, and simply about nothing at all, including the person with himself as an individual, when everything must be adapted to some package deal that for some reason the person feels is the only way he can be defined.
    I once watched an interview with someone who had come out of the question and is now engaged in art, as I believe at Bezalel. She painfully described the lack of legitimacy for engaging in art in the community she came from. She described how she felt the need to paint, sculpt, create, when it was not appropriate for a young woman to engage in such things at all. It burned so much and was so suppressed that she found her way there.
    I don't remember all the details, but I'm using that interview as a parable for the sake of illustration:
    So to a father who suppresses painting in the name of his sectoral package deal, you simply offer an upgraded package deal that also includes art? And what happens when something comes his way that wasn't included in the upgrade?
    Maybe the point is simply to be attentive, present, businesslike, and less preoccupied with conforming to the club?
    I think that reading the map presented in the above article shouldn't lead a person to formulate a green or purple identity, nor to the negation of black and white. It is simply irrelevant to anything, when we live without this need to quickly put on glasses of sectarian belonging before any inquiry in life, we may not even understand what their function was other than to imprison our thoughts and raise false walls between us and life itself.

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid0bpdm5ExYBGSEs8MUmZQNwCSUtwnJVYZJBRZawroZ5DGiHBhCF4Svzd2BcKNNrcaUl&id=100009546557854

    1. The idea that a person can establish a position without defining an ‘identity’ is expressed by Sh’Agnon in ’Sefer Hamedina’, in the chapter ‘Shalom Olamim’, which describes the split between the uncovered and their factions and the covered and their factions, when salvation came precisely through ‘one who was neither covered nor uncovered, but when he needed to scratch – he would uncover his head. And when he did not need to scratch – he would cover his head’ 🙂

      With blessings, Shahar Levanon Yarkoni St.

      1. Indeed. And food for thought about the green man, here:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJmMpc0lo1c
        (Yonatan Geffen)

    2. I think his fundamental argument is populist, and also expresses a bit of a misunderstanding of my fundamental argument. First, ideas need to be defined in order to promote them. If you leave the field for free development, the identified forces (black and white) take over. Second, green is not a defined identity in the sense of black and white. Whoever believes in it belongs to it, and not because of historical sediments. There are fifty shades of green, of course. The main point of my argument is against black and white and not in favor of any concrete green. I am completely in favor of a diverse and undefined map and strongly oppose rigid and binding definitions. I have been asked about this more than once, and I have said that I am not interested in how to define myself. And it should still be clear that it is not true that a person must choose an identity of black or white. Everything else is green. Green does not define rules of affiliation and does not exclude infidels, and does not demand absolute obedience, nor does it offer package deals of sweeping adoption of a basket of positions in a collection of many questions. Indeed, each question has its own merit. This is the green body.
      Hota writes that my discussion is very important because it allows us to free ourselves from the discourse of rigid and sweeping identities. I completely agree. This is exactly my goal. I am not really trying to create another identity in the same sense. Do you really think that if a child comes to me who does not want to engage in art, I will reject him because he does not fit into the green sector? This is a disturbing and very fundamental misunderstanding of what I am saying.

  32. I read,
    In my understanding the Rabbi is going through Babylon, do not get and do not steal the Ten Commandments 🙂

    In any case, in my opinion the Rabbi did not raise the important point that the attitude towards liberalism is much less defined,
    For example, where is the point of stopping the definitions? In a mixed minyan? In changing customs and possessions? Or canceling the regulations of the Sages who canceled factor X in them?
    And a person who is a lai'i is actually what? There are very few people who have explicitly thought about the issue and formed an opinion on it, so they will stick to the rabbi who justifies their actions in the closest way? Or as their lai'i?
    And on the other hand, it is not right that they did not argue with the lai'i because of the danger.
    It seems a bit like the Rabbi is striving to turn the wheel back to the beginning of the Enlightenment period.

  33. There is a gap between the parable and the parable. The green in the prologue expresses a way of thinking that does not need the entirety of the previous packages and focuses on what they have in common (“This of course surprised our little prince a lot, since the more he listened to both sides and their arguments, he realized that the majority of the population on both sides actually identifies with the green way of thinking, and that in fact there is no significant difference between the bases of the parties, the black and the white”). In this respect, the parable is uplifting.
    But, this green is attached to the parable with a very limiting tag – ” modernity”, which comes with such a heavy and loaded baggage. So many years of struggles, fears and disappointments. This is a shot in the foot. Even those who behave as ”modern religious” are afraid to define themselves as ”modern”. Modernity is immediately interpreted as a renunciation of Halacha. It is impossible to translate the American ”Modern Orthodox” nor the type it embodies. It does not apply here.
    Perhaps it is worth thinking of a less frightening word.

    1. I do not address the reader's fears and ratings considerations. In essence, modernity for me is a willingness to absorb external values (even without them being anchored in the sources). This does not mean that I automatically adopt every modern value. Modernity is not a renunciation of Halacha. This is the conservative propaganda that I opposed. Modern religiosity in the parable is exactly the green in the parable.

  34. Mikhi, I responded on Facebook, but they told me you weren't there. So I'm copying here. I didn't read the comments here, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been said.
    ***
    The booklet published by my friend Mikhi Avraham is as interesting and original as everything Mikhi writes. There is more than a grain of truth in it. However, some of the concepts are not well defined, and this leads to an inaccurate conclusion.
    I'll start by summarizing the main argument. The religious world in Israel can be mapped according to two orthogonal axes: the axis of Zionism (the x-axis for that matter) and the axis of religiosity (the y-axis). ["Religiosity" is not his word or the right word, but his terminology is inconsistent, and this is where the problem begins. We'll get to that.] The religious-political discourse in Israel is entirely on the y=100 line (an arbitrary high number) running between Haredim and Hardolirs. In other words, the discourse focuses entirely on the question of Zionism but assumes a certain religious view. The result is not good for two reasons: a. The truly interesting and important debate is actually on the y-axis between ultra-Orthodox-conservatives and modern-liberals, and all of this is missed; b. The modern-liberals are silenced.
    In fact, according to Michi, the debate between ultra-Orthodox and hardliners has long since lost its appeal, and its existence serves the common goal of the two hawks to exclude the modern-liberals.
    So much for a summary of Michi's words, and it seems to me that I have not skipped anything important. (Out of kindness, the writer will spend a little time summarizing in order to save many readers time reading. And literally.)
    As mentioned, there is an important and interesting statement here. Where, then, is the problem?
    Out of necessity, I used three expressions here that have a hyphen in them [religious-political, ultra-Orthodox-conservative, modern-liberal]. Miki did not use a hyphen (by the way, we both cannot tolerate the hyphen in religious-national and Akmal expressions), and instead jumped (explicitly) between identity discourse and party discourse (which forces me to use a religious-political expression), as well as between liberal and modern and conservative and haredi (without specifying this; and note: modern does not equal liberal, and haredi does not equal conservative). When he tries to describe the differences between the haredi-conservatives and the modern-liberals, he jumps from religious coercion and the status of the Chief Rabbinate to the status of women and LGBT rights, as well as to attitudes towards art and external wisdom.
    If we try to define the y-axis and also distinguish between identity and party, it seems that there is no issue on which haredi and haredi agree and modern-liberals are excluded.
    Is the difference between conservative and modern liberal Haredim related to questions of values (how should girls be educated, what is the appropriate attitude towards the phenomenon of homosexuality, what is the value of external studies) or to political questions (should the state impose religious values, what should be the powers of the Chief Rabbinate be?). The ambiguity between these two options runs like a thread throughout the article.
    What is your mind?
    If it comes to the political level, there is no unanimity at all between Haredim and Haredim. Haredim see the Chief Rabbinate as an expression of Wasibah Shofeiteich (surprisingly, but Akmal) and want to strengthen it. Haredim see it as a joke and want to exploit it until nothing is left of it. Haredim are divided among themselves regarding the degree of religious coercion that is appropriate at this time for practical reasons, and Haredim are divided among themselves for ideological reasons.
    And if it comes to the moral level, is someone shutting up the modern-liberals? Morning and evening we discuss LGBTQI and trans people, every Monday and Thursday another Beit Midrash opens for women, thousands of graduates of religious education study at universities, and in general dozens of shades of gray religiosity have already emerged.
    (And by the way, Mikhi, I lean (slightly) toward "conservatism" on the religious-moral level and also lean (very) toward "liberalism" on the religious-political level, and I'm definitely not alone, so I'd prefer you not to use these expressions so carelessly.)
    So that's right. There is no religious-liberal party. It's not because the Haredim and Hardalim conspired to exclude them. It's not because of false consciousness. It's because the modern-liberal religious have issues that interest them more and so they vote for a variety of parties (mostly non-religious) according to their positions on those issues.

    1. Moshe Shalom.
      I was happy for your learned response (as usual). You have clarified several important points and I will use this to clarify my positions. It seems to me that there are several omissions in your words (and perhaps the blame lies with me, for not making it clear enough).
      A. I will preface what I wrote in the comments at the end: When discussing a seam line, one inevitably focuses on the main line and neglects side branches and additional bifurcations. I did not identify in my words between Haredi and Haredi”lim, but I certainly think there is no difference between them that justifies placing them on opposite sides of a main seam line in religious identity. They are very similar, and in my opinion the difference is no greater than the difference between different Haredi groups. In my opinion, it is smaller. I am not talking about differences in clothing and sociological affiliation, but rather in conduct and thought.
      B. The connection I made between modernity and liberalism stems again from the need to locate a single line around which the discussion revolves. You certainly will not deny that there is an almost complete correlation. Look closely and forget about the issues you yourself brought up (the status of women, the welfare state and the Chief Rabbinate, coercion, attitude towards art and education). But furthermore, I argue that this is not just a sociological phenomenon (a coincidental correlation) but that there is a fundamental connection. Modernity as I have defined it here is not necessarily related to contemporaneity but to the willingness to introduce values into one's teaching without a clear Torah source. Naturally, these are usually contemporary values, and that is why it is called modernity. It is unlikely that anyone would introduce into their values what was prevalent in Zimbabwe in the tenth century. In this sense, liberalism is a private example of modernity. Therefore, this identification is excellent and I see no problem with it. Certainly within the general limits of this discussion. This group is well defined sociologically and conceptually-substantively. Therefore, there is no ambiguity in my words when I cross the two lines. I identify between them intentionally and consciously.
      C. I did not claim that there is a forced exclusion of liberalism-modernity, but rather that it is an exclusion that stems from errors in thinking. Therefore, do not go looking for exclusions in the sense of force. There is certainly strong action by conservatives aimed at excluding the liberal-modernists, but this is legitimate in my opinion. Every group works to advance its own interests. My claim is against the liberal-modernists who, due to distortions of thinking and anachronism, succumb to this. After all, it is not that there is a group with power here versus a weak group. The modern group is larger and stronger, and that is precisely the absurdity of the existing map.
      D. Indeed, there are discussions on all issues, even within the religious world, but they have no expression in the political and rabbinical leadership. They fail to crystallize into an identity. The fact is that most religious people, of all shades, perceive the liberal-modern position as lite (this is also how many moderns understand themselves). In my opinion, not rightly so. You yourself have often written in favor of the lack of ideology to begin with (against your mountain-born Yiddish who rebels by virtue of ideological demands), and today this is perceived as a flaw.
      E. Finally, two more specific comments:
      1. I really do not share your understanding of the Haredi attitude towards the Chief Rabbinate (although it is very widespread). This may have been the case in the past. Today they see it as important, almost for the same reason that the Haredi consider it important. It is a religious marker of the character of the state that helps preserve some basic religious principles (mainly marriage and kosher) in the general public. It is true that the foolish and disconnected Haredi also see it as some kind of spiritual symbol and a foothold of the throne of the world, some kind of state sanctity. But by and large, their attitude towards the Rabbinate is certainly similar to that of the Haredi. It is not for nothing that they struggle to control it, and no one tries to harm it. On the contrary, when they try to harm it, the Haredim are the first to call out (despite their official disdain for the institution). And I say this as someone who believes that this disgusting and harmful institution should have been closed down yesterday.
      2. I am not striving to establish a modern-liberal religious party. There is enough secularism like that, and I don't see what another religious party would add to us. In my opinion, religious parties are quite unnecessary, as long as the budgets for religious education are anchored (or the budgets for education for everyone are reduced. The voucher system, etc.) and the like. Religious MPs in general parties can also take care of this. Preventing religious coercion and discriminatory laws is not a task for a religious party, but for liberal parties that can also have religious MPs. The party I would vote for has no religious dimension and therefore it really doesn't need to be a religious party.
      This is essentially the situation today, and in this sense I have no problem with the current situation. In short, my problem is not with politics but with identity. The fact that Smotritz behaves exactly like Gafni is not a problem. Anyone who supports him should vote for him. The fact that he is considered a representative of all non-Haredi religiosity is the problem. The fact that other religious people are perceived as illegitimate or not religious enough is the problem. Of course, this also has indirect implications for politics, but it is not for nothing that my concern here is with identity (which is also a political person in the broad sense of politics) and not with political parties.
      In the end, everything is heard, and nothing changes.

  35. Hello Rabbi,

    In the rabbi's manifesto (and in general) we consistently encounter the demand for unity between reflections and heartfelt desires on the personal level and practical practice and putting it on the table. That is, if a person in his private opinions thinks that there is room for necessary changes such as halachic matters that require refreshing, if he is an honest person, he must stand up and take action, promote his personal perception in the public and social field, or at the very least he is required to be honest in declaring himself as such, and not be ashamed of the prohibitions of legumes and the like.

    Indeed, years have passed and we are no longer dependent on the kindness of other peoples, and the model: ‘Be a Jew at home and a Gentile when you leave’ is for the weak.
    But it seems that this style exists in us, not because of weakness or fear, but rather by choice: Be a liberal at home and a religious-conservative (coming Haredi) when you leave. But this is a perception that is right to live by and not just the dialing area of comfort.

    The religious liberal is usually a connoisseur of taste who is carefully clear about what is right and what is wrong, and when they tell him to copy the liberal doctrine into public leadership, he recoils. The pursuit of public and sometimes political liberalism is more contrary to his opinion than haredi conservatism. Haredi religious conservatism will always stop at his doorstep, while liberalism from the outside threatens to overwhelm his house.
    In other words, there is black, white, and green. But what is green on the inside and black on the outside?
    In my opinion, this is the typical liberal. Who maintains that the black (the religious-haredi) did the job, the black can't go, let him stay to guard it a little longer. He is my gentile fool.

    Let's take an example from recent times. The public has been caught in a titanic battle between Rabbi Melamed, who clings to easy conversion or a public meeting with the Reformers, and the ‘elected rabbis of religious Zionism (of their own accord) who are straightforward in their hearts will agree that Rabbi Melamed is truly right, but look at him with a yawn, what is all this missing for us now. (And in my opinion, this is where the failure of Matan Kahane lies, who wanted either everything or nothing - and there is really no large public that wants that) From the liberal's perspective, this is the path to the Messiah, meaning that all this goodness of Rabbi Melamed will eventually bring with it things that may be fundamentally right but are not practically correct.
    (This is certainly similar to claims about the climate crisis. These are claims that are both right and scientifically based, but we will not stop everything now because life is more important)

    Another thing the Rabbi is known for is the master of divisions, and in this booklet we will recognize more strongly – but in my opinion the Rabbi separates a little too strongly
    between the liberal religious and the conservative. Conservatism today is considered something innovative, even prestigious and flashy (the American style, starring Ben Shapiro, and in Israel, Gadi Taub, who is invited to religious-conservative conferences, ironically). Indeed, it is a conservatism of taste, with light touches, in which the halacha is not present in their personal lives and there is no real conflict. But it is reasonable to assume that they would prefer that the halacha not be changed in any way and remain intact as it is.
    This jumped out at me in an interview with Roy Yozvitz, a man who gives the impression of a leading liberal in his field. But surprisingly, after every claim by the rabbi about the halacha freezing on Shmarya, Yozvitz would shout with a half-smile: Yes, but we are on a conservative channel. In other words, many religious liberals are comfortable with this place (like Yozvitz, for example - again, I don't know him) that does not oblige them but also does not ask them to make religious-public decisions. In other words, we are effective conservatives, yes Bibi, yes Trump, not progressive, but only outside the walls of the Beit Midrash. A descent into Shitin and the relevance of the laws belongs to Rabbi Akiva and his friends, ‘and only to them’.

    In our history, the formation of an identity was done out of existential need, sometimes out of necessity.
    Shabbos, Hasidism, resistance, Haskalah, Zionism, progressivism, Haredi, stemmed from a (perhaps mistaken) feeling that everything around them was sinking and a new path needed to be forged. Here, on the surface, the matter is a little different. At first, life in the shadow of liberal religiosity flourished and no one was under our control. In the end, everyone has their own rabbi who knows how to find the necessary permissions. I don't care if this rabbi is actually the chief rabbi or if he is a rabbi. He is reserved for me in contacts and ink.

    In the end, one gets the impression that the engagement with the manifesto doctrine was quite sleepy because it is only loyal to a package deal
    and good things (liberalism) come in small packages
    and if the rabbi thinks that the right thing is lean Judaism, on the other hand many people think that lean liberalism is more important.

    In closing, I will end with the greatest praise of the generation that preceded us:
    Rabbi Michi, aren't you spoiled!

    1. I definitely agree that there is something to this. I am working for the long term, and I do not expect revolutions now. See in column 444, where I wrote exactly as you said, and not even really in retrospect.

  36. To the honor of dear Rabbi Michael, my name is Dan and I am a Haredi guy, a student of the Hebron Knesset Israel Yeshiva in Jerusalem.
    I was happy to read what you wrote in the article “The Third Identity” and the truth is that I, and in my opinion many of my fellow yeshiva members, also wave the “green flag” that you suggested. But I would like to make a few comments:

    1. Regarding issues of religion, as far as I know, there is no religious or moral source for religious coercion (without going into the actual issue of “forcing the commandments”). And just as there is no reason to force everyone who buys hail in a store to recite the blessing “Shechol”, so I have no interest in forcing people to refrain from traveling in a car on Shabbat. I also see no interest in maintaining a religious state as much as possible in the public sphere, because even though I define myself as a proud Israeli, my Israeliness and Zionism do not come from a religious place, just like I am, for example, a Benny Baraki in my identity, and it does not come from a religious place. And yet there are issues on which I think it is important to give the Chief Rabbinate the taboo on them, such as the institution of marriage. How can a secular woman who has converted to Judaism be able to marry a religious man, for example, if there is a concern that she is the great-granddaughter of a couple married in a same-sex marriage and is in fact the daughter of a gentile surrogate mother, all without proper registration?

    In addition, in principle, on the issue of driving on Shabbat, for example, I completely agree that there is no interest in forcing a car to drive on Shabbat. And yet, is it expected of a religious party that has insisted on this to date to compromise and thereby essentially show that it no longer cares about driving on Shabbat? After all, I also care that a Jew does not observe the commandments! I simply don't want to impose... But it's clear that if I were a religious representative in the Knesset, I wouldn't suddenly be able to vote for such a law and cause the desecration of the Sabbath (although there is no problem with actually allowing the Sabbath on Shabbat, but only with suddenly expressing agreement to something that, in essence, I am not comfortable with... and so are the other laws).

    2. After reading your words and I do agree that the country is important to me, but not from a religious perspective (important to me in the same way that America is important to Americans, for example, and my attitude towards it was the same and not from a religious perspective), why should I even vote for a religious party or for those who wear a kippah? Why wouldn't I simply vote for Likud, Yesh Atid or any other party in Israel? What's the point of establishing a religious party if religious values don't necessarily affect the votes themselves? (And if in order to maintain Jewish tradition and tradition, there are many parties in Israel that support this idea...)

    3. Finally, I will just summarize and say that perhaps as you wrote about the rabbi from Ponovis who expressed an idea that may hint at what you are saying,
    It is very possible that United Torah Judaism is actually the Green Party!!!
    The reason that Gafni cannot vote in favor of Shabbat travel, for example, is not because he or the party really cares about this issue, but as I wrote above, after the status quo, if he votes in favor, he will be expressing support for the actual travel on Shabbat.. Which is of course problematic from a religious perspective... But ask any intelligent person who will tell you that Gafni does not really care about Shabbat travel in Tel Aviv... Unlike Smotrich, for example... he cares about budgets. So maybe the Green Party is actually United Torah Judaism and they simply also take care of the budgets for the institutions I will send my children to, which gives me and my friends a good enough reason to vote for them… What do you think about this?

    Thanks for the article,
    I was very happy to read what I have been thinking for a long time,
    Dan

    1. To Dan – Hello,

      You should vote for a religious party, so that you can continue studying in the yeshiva.

      Best regards, the Awakeners

      1. משק פתוח בשבת הוא כפיה אנטי-דתית (לדן) says:

        In the Bible, the prohibition on operating public transportation on Shabbat is one detail of Shabbat being a weekly day of rest when the entire economy is closed. In the private sector, no one is prevented from doing whatever their heart desires in their homes and vehicles, but with regard to the economic economy, the state has room to set hours and days of rest. A Christian state shuts down the economy on Sunday, and a Jewish state on Shabbat.

        Setting days and hours of rest prevents wild competition and exploitation of workers. When a large supermarket owner opens it 24/7, he creates unfair competition with small stores whose owners want people to rest on Shabbat for reasons of tradition or family.

        Even workers who want, for reasons of tradition or family, a weekly day of rest are forced against their will to make their Shabbat a weekday, otherwise they will not find work. It was not for nothing that Shelly Yachimovitz, who was the leader of the Labor Party, fought to reduce work permits on Shabbat, not for religious reasons but for the welfare of workers.

        With regards, Noam Shaltiel Menuhin Halevi

    2. Hello Dan.
      First of all, I am very happy that I did indeed get it factually correct in claiming that there are quite a few greens in Haredi society as well. Many disagreed with me on this.
      Regarding your words:
      1. I disagree with you about the Chief Rabbinate. Its harm far outweighs its benefit. Because of the Rabbinate, the number of bastards is increasing and those who do not marry according to the Law of Moses and Israel are increasing. In my opinion, without it, the number would decrease. Today, half of the couples do not marry and thousands of couples marry according to their own will without registering, a recipe for great legal and halachic anarchy. All of this is the ”right” of the Rabbinate. Indeed, regulation is needed, but for this, a rabbi is not needed. The Ministry of the Interior should administer registration. By the way, because of the situation I described, even today there is no regulation and no way to know who you are marrying. If there is a spiking, there are spiking laws. This has always been the case among the Jewish people and there was no Chief Rabbinate that promotes blasphemy and (justified) hatred of religion and religious people.
      I definitely expect a religious party not to vote for transportation coercion and in general. By the way, you don't have to vote for it, you can just not oppose it. It would have passed anyway. But beyond that, these blasphemy considerations themselves multiply blasphemy and hatred for coercion. So what have we gained? A religious MK who is interested can abstain from any religious issue and that's it. But today, not only do they not vote against or abstain, but they are in favor, they are working with all their might for coercion (making coalitions conditional on it, etc.). Therefore, it is clear that their consideration is not the consideration you presented here. And that they voted for it in the past, and that anyone who ate garlic will eat garlic again? In my opinion, we should vote against religious coercion, and declare that it is a vote because of consideration against our conscience. That's all.
      2. Here there is a misunderstanding of my words. That is exactly what I claimed. Vote for Likud or anyone else you want. My article does not call for the establishment of a modern party. In my opinion, there is no need for such a party. Religious MKs will operate within the framework of other parties. After all, we don't want religious laws, so what is a party for?!
      3. Above I explained to you why this is not true. They are definitely in favor of religious coercion. They are working for it with all their might.
      Regarding the budgets, the institutions themselves are unnecessary, since their main goal is to fortify the ultra-Orthodox that imposes itself on those outside and on its members inside. Without this, it would be possible to reach an agreement on organized funding and to study the necessary basic education. But they want control over the public, and therefore their interest is to keep them poor and unable to earn money, dependent on their budgets. Therefore, in my opinion, the interest of the ultra-Orthodox themselves is not to help their representatives who are only screwing them over. In my opinion, the war against the Libi, etc. is not because of the fear of abrogating the Torah, but because it will open horizons for occupations and earning money and economic independence. Beyond that, they have an interest in keeping the war and hostility in front of the general population, because without it there is no Haredi.

  37. Here is a response that was published today in ’Srugim’: https://www.srugim.co.il/711277-%d7%a9%d7%a2%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%9e%d7%91%d7%97%d7%9f-%d7%a9%d7%9c-%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%99%d7%91%d7%95%d7%a8-%d7%94%d7%9c%d7%99%d7%91%d7%a8%d7%9c%d7%99
    There are a lot of mistakes here. Here are some of them:
    1. In my article I did not talk about a modern-liberal party and voting. Vote for whoever you want, just take into account what your representatives will do and not how they look or speak.
    2. The question of closeness is really not related to the question of voting. When Bennett and Shaked headed the Jewish Home, they led a Haredi policy. So a modern religious person who felt close to them voted for them and accepted Haredim. In my opinion, Smotrich is not Haredi in himself, but his policy is Haredi. Therefore, the important question for the voter is what the policy is and what the elected officials will do, not who I am close to.
    3. I personally feel close to Lieberman and Meretz, no less than to the Haredim (and a little less than Smotrich). But as mentioned, it doesn't matter. And as a collective, I feel much closer to Meretz and Lieberman than to the Haredim.
    4. Meretz and Lieberman are wrong in my opinion, but they are babies who have been captured. On the other hand, the Haredim, for the most part, are not like that.
    5. Beyond that, of course, a distinction must be made between psychological closeness and ideological closeness. There is no reason to identify them. In fact, they are not the same, and they don't have to be the same.

  38. Hello Rabbi Mikhi, there is certainly no argument that the Mustards are renouncing the values of modernity, but how do you explain the rather widespread phenomena in the Mustard sector, in which the wives of many rabbis there are scholars who have acquired higher education at university, mainly in medical studies, and more. The same applies to many Mustard rabbis, who, with all their Mustard views, cannot be said to be unfamiliar with modernity and its culture in depth, and some of them are certainly well-versed in modern philosophy. So, to compare them completely to the Haredim, most of whom among the Haredim do not know what modern philosophy is, and no one there has studied in institutions of higher education (hardly any core studies) is a bit inaccurate, isn't it? (Despite everything, the Mustards claim to be students of Raya, who himself was a great revolutionary and was certainly not considered conservative in his time, which the Haredim certainly were not willing to attribute to themselves anything from Raya Kook)

    1. I didn't compare them “completely”. I said that the differences between them are not significant enough to place them on opposite sides of the religious identity seam. No more than between a Belz and a Gur or a Lithuanian and a Welshman. Incidentally, the gaps are narrowing even more over time.

  39. I understood that in daily practice Rabbi Kook was the greatest of the conservatives, but his thought and worldview were revolutionary and open (correct me if I'm wrong). The same goes for the Haredim and the Haredim. The difference in worldviews is great, but in practice the differences in perceptions are not expressed. Isn't that enough to say that they are still completely different sectors, even though from a practical and political point of view the perceptions have no difference, but nevertheless the difference in perceptions is not negligible.

  40. https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/ryjw1o4zo?utm_source=ynet.app.android&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=general_share&utm_term=ryjw1o4zo&utm_content=Header
    Here is the Haredi equivalent of the manifesto. It is as I said, my ”green” includes a lot of Haredi. A truly parallel phenomenon, including false consciousness that leads to distorted voting.

    1. On the 25th of Elul (Day of Creation of Light) 5752

      There is a fundamental difference between those seeking ‘core studies’ in the Haredi world and the &#8216liberal religious’ and all the religious &#8216liberaland all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal’and all the religious &#8216liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liberal&#8217liber They have no interest in integrating women into the synagogue, nor in inclusive kashrut, nor in inclusive conversion, nor in openness to Reform Jews at the Western Wall, nor in the inclusion of LGBT people, nor in the other vegetables preached to them by our liberals, who, as they say, love everyone, except Haredim and Haredim 🙂

      Since those seeking the core are not interested in dissociating themselves from the values of Haredi society, and want their sons to continue studying in its educational institutions, in Talmud Torah and yeshivot, there is room to suggest that enrichment in mathematics and English be provided as part of classes after hours in Talmud Torah. There is no place to force an entire society and bring about secular intervention in the ’bird of a feather’. Those who see a need for enrichment in secular studies – can do so outside the framework.

      With greetings, Yaron Fish”l Ordner

      By the way, the expression ‘Haredi Leumi’ as an expression of ’identity’ was actually coined by Rebbetzin Rappaport, who can be labeled as a representative of American Harediism. And she called her school ‘Haredi Leumi’.

      Before her, the nickname ‘Haredi Leumi’ was adopted by the ‘Ezra’youth movement As a step in the transition from the identity of ‘Poalei Agudat Yisrael’ to a Torah-national identity. Today ‘Ezra’ calls itself a ‘Torah-national youth movement’.

      1. On the Day of the Difference Between Water and Water in the PB

        Since the most important study for work purposes is English, according to the testimony of Prof. Shlomo Kalisch, the main core subject required for work in high-tech is English. It occurred to me that even those who oppose studying English in Talmud Torah, might agree to studying Yiddish, which, like English, belongs to the Germanic language family, and both have a great deal of similarity in grammar and vocabulary.

        Whoever learns Yiddish well will find it easier in adulthood, if he so desires, to learn the English language. This is what my late father, Prof. David Shamel Levinger, who began general studies only at the age of 16-17, told me, that studying German and English was easy for him, due to their closeness to Yiddish, which was his native language.

        Greetings, Ofer Bedan Mellav-Moskroner (Av”m)

        My father told me an anecdote about the difference between Yiddish and English. While watching the Zionist Congress in Basel after the Second World War, my father listened to a speech by Moshe Shertok (Sharet) in English, and also put on the headphones in which the speech was translated into Yiddish, in order to compare the original with the translation.

        When Sharetok said about a certain person who was an enlightened man: He is an enlightened man. The translator translated into Yiddish: ‘Er iz an afsefklärter goy 🙂

        And if we mentioned Moshe Sharet, I will mention the refinement of Rabbi Eliyahu Pardes, later Rabbi of Jerusalem, who said that the ambassadors of a country that Sharet appointed as Minister of Foreign Affairs, can be called ‘angels of the Sharet’ 🙂

      2. And they have no interest in participating in protecting Jewish life in the Land of Israel. Even those of them who don't study Torah all day long - have no interest in it.
        Children of others will give their blood. Children of Haredi, children of national religious, children of modern religious, anything goes.
        The main thing is that the matchmaking of their children is not harmed.

        1. This criticism is not accurate. Today, there are many in the general public who do not serve in combat service or do not serve at all, and prefer their personal good over the good of the state. Even those who do serve do not necessarily go into combat service. In general, not all service to the state must involve risking one's life.
          We need to distinguish between what people do (who favor matchmaking) and the ideology (which wants them not to get spoiled, and believes that Torah scholars and observant people contribute to the people of Israel). This is the case with the Haredi, with the religious-nationalists, and with the secularists.
          I will just clarify that I share this criticism, but I do not see in this comparison an ideological distinction between the perceptions (an identity watershed).

          1. Of course, in my opinion there is no ideological distinction either. All religious people think that Torah scholars are important to the Jewish people, all religious people are afraid that their children will be spoiled in the army, and everyone is afraid of death when their children are in the line. The Haredim have an additional fear of being transferred to the second tier in the shiduch. This is not like someone who simply prefers their personal benefit and avoids service. If it were just that, most of them would enlist.
            The problem is the Haredi leadership. After all, if the leadership had really tried to strive for a solution for adapted military service, it would have already happened. And if one spiritual leader had given his daughter to a slanderer who also served in the army, everyone would have imitated him.
            I have failed to understand how they live with the fact that others die for them. Also from a halakhic perspective.

            1. This is one possible interpretation. An alternative interpretation: Haredim have more fear and more awe (and perhaps that is why they lose matches there for it). You decided on interpretation A, and in my opinion without any justification.
              The rest of my comments are the same. The comparison between people's behavior and a principled ideology is incorrect and not fair.

              1. I probably didn't get to your point. It's an entire community that behaves the same way. Not just a few. (Certainly not every single one of them has to serve among me).

              2. By the way, in the Wikipedia entry for Rabbi Michael Avraham there is this line: “In his articles and lectures, Avraham distinguishes between the religious identity of the Orthodox observant community with which he identifies, and the “Haredim” class, which he says is mistakenly identified as the religious identity of the Haredim – instead of being correctly identified as their sociological status”. If we assume that there is more fear there, perhaps it is worth correcting.”

              3. I didn't understand the comment. As for the interpretation I suggested, it's just an interpretative alternative.
                But in any case, if you think it needs to be changed – then change it. The entries on Wikipedia are written by the public. I don't touch what's going on there, nor do I know the details.

  41. רמד"א בצה"לית 'ראש מינהלת דרך אחרת' (המכונה גם 'מינהלת קו התפר') says:

    On the 25th of Elul, Ramadhan rightly commented here that the division between ultra-Orthodox and religious-nationalists does not exhaust all the nuances that exist in the public, as there are various “seam lines” that do not coincide with the accepted division.

    However, it seems to me that inventing a “third identity” will not help solve the problem. Both because the diversity is much greater than three, and because there are many who belong in one particular to this “identity” and in another particular to another “identity.”

    Here, the IDF, which holds an officer who is described as “Ramadhan,” will help us. = ‘Head of the Another Road Administration’, also called the ‘Seam Line Administration’, which specializes in large and complex construction operations.

    Instead of increasing divisions and divisions – we will increase factual clarifications that present the complexity of Judaism. The importance of the sides here and there and the importance of the various ‘seam lines’. This way, a person will be strengthened in his unique way without bitterness and disdain for different methods.

    With the blessing of ‘May it be the year of bridge building’, Ofer Badan Mellav-Moskroner (Avࢭm)

  42. It is worth seeing the implications of choosing the Bibi-Haredim-Smotritz bloc here: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02pcCPFx1SGW3tyyJ1uVXMwJN4vjW7cjo7Nf1jEEiE8gePeFDxtZgp1LXTQz6qxiQbl&id=629129764

  43. Here it comes: https://www.inn.co.il/news/583590/?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share&utm_content=1669030000392
    Haredi from all over the world united: Smotrich, Deri, Goldknopf and Gafni. The seam line is taking shape.

  44. Peace and blessings, Rabbi Michael!
    First of all, I wanted to say thank you very much for a fascinating and eye-opening booklet. I don't say this just as lip service, but I really feel it. It was really refreshing to see a very different angle, and so interesting!

    A few things. There are both doubts / doubts here, and also honest questions. I may be repeating myself a little, I tried to write in order of things.
    Another thing, I don't know if it matters, but you could say that outwardly I belong to the public called the mustard.

    1. In my opinion, there are quite a few differences between the Haredi public and the National Religious public:
    A. The attitude towards the state. Saying Hallel or not saying Hallel is no small matter. It indicates a deep internal attitude towards the state. And this is not expressed only in Hallel, it can be seen in other things. According to what I see and hear, the Haredim really care less about the state… and they certainly want its well-being and do not want its failure and destruction, God forbid. But how much do they feel they belong to the state? How much do they feel responsible for the state? Much less than the national religious public, if at all. As a small example, I know firsthand some sky-fearing ultra-Orthodox young men who have no problem cheating on exams at a certain academic institution, because the “state” and the “academy” are like the “Fritz” in a town abroad for them. I have not found anything like that, certainly not in such an official way, in the national religious public.
    B. The attitude towards studying Torah. In the ultra-Orthodox public, this is an absolutely distinct value! Even in the more open ultra-Orthodox public. Even if in practice the ultra-Orthodox person does not study more Torah than a religious person, as a public value – there is certainly a difference.
    C. A sense of brotherhood with our so-called “secular” brothers. In the national religious public, the sense of brotherhood is much stronger.
    D. What is the attitude towards literature or music? From my acquaintance with quite a few Haredi rabbis, the attitude is positive! What is yes and what is no – that is a question. I do not know the Haredi world well enough in this aspect, but I feel that these things do not have the same place of honor as in the national religious community.
    E. Marriage between different ethnic groups. In the Haredi community, there is an amazing lack of interest in the subject. Among the most serious Haredi people – I do not know this at all.
    F. In general, the matchmaking institution that “ranks” according to all sorts of external criteria that do not exist in any way in the Haredi community.
    G. The attitude towards people with mental problems, and in general openness to the world of treatment, and dealing with the soul.

    Let’s say for a moment that there is no fundamental difference between the communities, and the main difference is, as you said, between liberalism and conservatism. Is the sociological division, as we will call it for the sake of this matter, just that significant? I don't assume in my heart that the answer is “of course not”. I would simply like to hear your opinion.
    Don't the rabbis of the bloc (in a rough and general way, because I don't pretend to really understand their teachings) prove religious Zionism from values that are not related to the Torah?
    Does history have no value? If it weren't for Rabbi Kook's innovation that Zionism is based on the Torah, would we have arrived at what we are today? Aren't we much more open to ideas, to criticism, to the secular world – not thanks to that revolution, which ultimately centered around the Zionist line?
    What do you think of the next trend?
    He is careful to be as gentle as he is severe, bases his Zionism on the Torah, is not at all hostile to modernity, but sees it as a blessing and progress (along with the scum that must be removed from it), recognizes the value of literature, music, (as enhancing and enriching the study of the Torah, and as standing in their own right), strives to grow in all Torah subjects – including the study of Hasidism and internalism, sees the state as the beginning of the growth of our redemption, feels a sense of true responsibility for its future and is anxious for its fate, loves his brothers who are not observant of the mitzvot with a soulful love, and feels full responsibility towards them.
    Why does this third identity not have leadership and regular change? Is this a coincidence, or is it really a minority/marginal group?
    Why call the opinion of the rabbis with a distinctly conservative approach “propaganda”? It is a cast opinion, with which one can disagree. But the word “propaganda” It gives a sense of irrelevance. If we were dealing with politics, fine. But rabbis whose worldview this is, who claim to be lighthearted, and whose danger lies in it – why attribute the word propaganda to them, and not use another word – education?
    How did that “collection of conservative rabbis” reach such a significant position of power? Maybe because they really have a large public that is thirsty for their words and believes in their teachings? I again distinguish between the political aspect and the yeshiva/public/personal aspect. Those who, from a political point of view, define them as “the chosen ones of religious Zionism” for their political needs, that is one thing. But where does their large public come from? Everyone is fooled by politics? As a student of a conservative-classical yeshiva, I actually came with a very large anti (because my brothers studied in a completely different place), and I saw a lot of light and goodness there. That is why I connected to things. To present it as if I was led astray and my consciousness was engineered is unfair.
    Why is the seemingly “light-hearted” view presented like this? Where is the thought that is “missed” along the way? Even “rabbis and public leaders who clearly tend toward modern-religiousness feel on the defensive” (!!) Everyone is wrong, everyone is missing the point, everyone is being misled?! Maybe there is a second possibility here – is there a true, well-founded (conservative) worldview here? Why call the criticism sent from the conservative wings “demagogic criticism”? Maybe it is a solid worldview?
    Why are those with the third identity silenced? (Again, I am not talking about politics, but about education, about the public – educational – yeshivah – Torah atmosphere).
    Why are political figures like Bennett not equipped with in-depth Torah thought? Indeed, where is it really?
    What does it mean that Bennett and Shaked are loyal products of religious-Zionist education, and that it is difficult for him to stand up to rabbinical figures in whose light they themselves were educated?
    Regarding the Torah platform of that third identity, you offer your trilogy. I do not want to offend, you are certainly a hundred times smarter than me. In any case, I would be happy to ask – are there other rabbis / other books that speak about the Torah platform of that third identity?

  45. Still something about my numbering and jumping lines didn't work
    Never mind
    We'll leave it at that, hope things are clear

  46. Hello Rabbi.
    I am telling you myself for the sake of convenience.

    It is clear that there are differences, but they are irrelevant for two reasons: a. Because they have no bearing on the public political sphere. b. Because there are also differences between other Haredi groups. Here I was drawing a line of demarcation, and as such it focuses on one central line and ignores differences in side nuances. And perhaps I should add that some of the differences are theoretical statements that are not really realized in reality (such as the attitude towards various areas of mundane life, especially since this also varies among the Haredi).
    I did not understand your question about the rabbis of the Gush.
    I am not concerned with history. Rabbi Kook's innovation is not relevant to the discussion, especially since many argue about his innovations. Some of them, in my opinion, were very harmful and wrong. But that is not relevant to the discussion.
    My opinion on the identity you described, which is completely acceptable to me and therefore describes almost nothing.
    I call propaganda baseless opinions, which in my opinion in many cases even those who speak in their name do not really believe in (unless they are stupid). Such discourse is indeed not a substantive discourse. If you want to discuss something specific, bring up something like that. You mentioned the Laity, and this is an excellent example of propaganda. They include everyone who does not belong to them.
    They have reached a significant position of power because they have the right of first refusal. Beyond that, they represent an ultra-Orthodox position, and this was once the hegemonic position. The problem is that the public has a tendency to get stuck in irrelevant positions and not change and update. Especially in a religious world where change is considered unacceptable (despite Rabbi Kook's statements). Indeed, most people are fooled by this propaganda and consciousness engineering.
    There is no such thing as profound Jewish thought. The invention of the mustards is not profound thought, but egg rolls.
    I am not concerned with agreements, and your need for agreements attests to the description I gave of the group to which you belong (as you wrote yourself). I examine ideas for their own sake and not according to who supports or opposes them. By the way, I think there are quite a few rabbis who support this platform, but they themselves have not really refined it for themselves (sometimes out of fear of the consequences). But as I said, it really doesn't matter.

    All the best,

    1. Hello, and thanks for the answer

      Regarding the rabbis of the bloc. In the booklet you wrote that ”almost no one, at least in the rabbinical and political leadership of religious Zionism today, bases his own commitment to Zionism on the values of modernity”. I asked, do the rabbis of the bloc not base their commitment to Zionism on the values of modernity?
      Regarding the identity I described. What do you mean that it is completely acceptable to you and therefore describes almost nothing? I know such people, such rabbis, such worldviews, such yeshivots.
      I did not ask if there are additional sources for the Torah platform of the third identity – in the simple sense of ‘agreement’. You simply intrigued me, and I would be happy to provide additional references besides your trilogy

      1. I didn't understand the question. I wrote no. So you ask: Is it really not? My surprising answer is: no.
        That's exactly what I wrote: There are many of them, but they are divided among themselves on much more important and meaningful questions, and therefore this description does not mean much to our matter. What's more, in many cases these are mere statements. For example, the people of the line explain to the Nablus and Arab in the name of Rabbi Kook that they are very open and see value in many contemporary things and different fields of knowledge. But in practice they oppose everything new and everything that is not them.
        I have no references for two reasons: 1. The trilogy contains a lot of ideas and each of them can be agreed or disagreed with. 2. I don't care who agrees and who doesn't. This is an irrelevant question in my opinion.

  47. As an ultra-Orthodox: Every word is a pearl!
    Although, my feeling about some of the leaders of the ultra-Orthodox public is that they are more lying, holy lies, for the sake of maintaining faith and Judaism, than they are wrong.

  48. Hello, Honorable Rabbi.
    You read the manifesto you wrote on Shabbat. In principle, I agree with the analysis and think that the document is very important and well-reasoned. That is why it was very unfortunate to read the chapter “Current Political Implications”, because despite the promise, the chapter gets into a partisan and hostile matter, does not contribute much to the central argument and especially because it does not present a framework for analyzing these thoughts and negative feelings towards large parts of the Israeli public. It is impossible to skip the following “pearl”: They adopted the insulting position that is so prevalent, that the religious public, like an Arab village or a development town, has dignitaries to whom they are supposed to turn if they want to move things or make decisions. This is a sentence that could easily fit into the basket of arguments of the Rabbi. Terrible wording, to remind you, there are many areas where various dignitaries in the State of Israel are being approached in order to move things along: Omri Sharon, not long ago, the current ruling party - Yesh Atid, in which one person and advisors unknown to the public are moving things along, and also every other authoritarian party in power, such as Yisrael Beiteinu, and more. And if we think about the "consultations" of senior legal officials with retired Jewish legal dignitaries for the purpose of making decisions, we also see a resemblance to activity that bypasses democratic and professional mechanisms. But you chose an Arab town and village - there is no better demonstration of the unconscious bias in your perception: Arabs. Mizrahi Likud Shas. Simply horrible. If Bennett had approached the rabbinical organization "Hillel", would you have written this paragraph too?
    The rest of the musings in this chapter also simply do not match your level and intention to write a manifesto. It is possible that Bennett took advantage of the repressed modern sentiment, but more than anything, Bennett expressed the madness of the Zionist-religious (with a hyphen, to be precise) sectors of the salt of the earth sector that contributes the most, bears the burden, mediates between parts of society, etc., who do not want to be the overseer of these kosher practices. Only someone who shares such an ego trip can think of a prime minister with public support of a little more than 5% of the voters he received in the elections.
    And more: Bennett received most of the brutal criticism from Likud, others in the bloc only joined and with less intensity. It was not unprecedented. “The incessant demonstrations, wild slander, continuous lies and wild slander against them and their family members” - as if you were writing about 2020-2021 and the struggle against Prime Minister Netanyahu. This is the norm that has been established in the Israeli public system and therefore does not indicate any special phenomenon that needs to go beyond a bitter political struggle for control, which is mainly between Netanyahu and his opponents.
    The fierce opposition to Bennett and the powerful criticism came as a result of a political error in Bennett's politics, which you probably share. Bennett thought that his political move would be perceived as legitimate, a kind of ” thief from thief exempt”. Netanyahu is not keeping his promises before the elections - stealing votes from the ideological religious right, and Bennett is also stealing votes in a similar way. The problem is that a public that really did not want more such thefts and that was the basis of his support, omitted it with his own hands in exchange for a short-lived dubious achievement of holding the title of Prime Minister.
    In short, it would have been better if this chapter had not been included in the manifesto.
    With great respect,

    1. Hello.
      There was no promise. I said that my goal is non-partisan (and I promised nothing), and indeed this section also begins by saying that I use political voting patterns to demonstrate my identity ideas. I have no interest in partisan politics here.
      You ignore what I wrote because I clearly wrote that Bennett made quite a few mistakes, some of which I am also angry with him for (so I don't know where you draw your conclusion that I treat him like a thief from a thief). But the treatment of him was not in proportion to these mistakes. My conclusion was based on the proportion and not on the actual negative treatment of him.
      In no party is there a situation where decisions are made in the room of a “honorable”. There are people who are respected in all parties, and even consult themselves and give weight to their words. This is not the case in religious Zionism. And I haven't even talked about the quality of those “”honorable ones”. I'll spare you that.
      All the best,

  49. I was happy to read your esteemed article on Saturday. I thought of responding in the body of the article, but after reading the previous responses there, I preferred to write to you from here personally. My name is Dr. Eyal Bari, and for years I have been busy researching various aspects of the Indian subcontinent, and in my free time I tour the Hummus Trail and Chabad houses, where I engage in conversation with my Israeli friends.
    The Indian atmosphere allows the heart to discover many topics that we avoid discussing at home, topics some of which you slightly overwhelm in your article.
    During one of my travels, I happened to visit the village of Dramkot in northern India, a glorious Israeli nest. My anthropological curiosity led me to stay in a small cafe, where a group of veterans of the same combat unit would gather every morning (at 12 noon), from where they would leave with the same kit for the airport and buy a ticket to India. Every day the guys would gather and talk as a support group about identity issues. I would sit in a far corner like a fly on the wall and try to listen to the conversation. It was fascinating. Issues of redefining all the boundaries of religion, tradition, redefining the boundaries of sexuality on the axis between bi, straight and homosexual, redefining the political worldview and, above all, releasing anger at high school and the internal systems of the home, education and the army were opened up. Indeed, the guys there were looking for a third identity for themselves, but in Israel, in my opinion (and I have not researched this academically) all this talk goes underground, the heart no longer reveals itself to the mouth and slowly people learn to align with the desired and “correct” identity norms, or they end up on the psychologist’s couch when they have difficulty with this “human games” process.
    I feel like I have a lot more on my mind, and I really identify with many of the words you wrote. The thing is, in my humble opinion, that anyone who supports the idea of a third identity prefers to keep it underground and be “modern” at home, and act as accepted in Orthodoxy – when they come out.
    And I ask – Is it possible that those with a third identity do not define themselves because they prefer to remain “unidentified / defined”, since every definition negates a previous definition and as Nietzsche said, in order to build a temple, a temple must be destroyed – and what are they/we afraid of at the cost of the destruction?
    I saw this a lot in India (I returned from there two weeks ago after a long research visit) – deciding not to decide, committing not to commit, being everything and being nothing at the same time, etc. etc.

    Needless to say, this psychosocial process/mechanism, which apparently also carries some difficult “prices”, fascinates me every time.

    By the way, there are those who have studied this numerically, statistical questionnaires, in-depth questionnaires, etc., which give a more superficial view of the whole issue. What percentage of the population is this really about?

    I would love to know more,

    1. I think that in Israel too there are many people with undefined intermediate identities, and they also say so openly. Today there is no need to hide. The problem is not the fear and the descent into the underground, which today almost do not exist (except perhaps in very closed societies), but the unwillingness or ability to define and conceptualize these identities and the resistance to the prevailing identities, and this is what I tried to do in the booklet.
      Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the research literature in this field.

      1. I am not currently involved in films, nor am I currently involved in researching identity.
        In my response, I responded to your words and request – I am currently thinking about how and what to promote. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear them.
        And from that, I came up with some ideas.
        You don't have to accept them, and if you want, we can part ways here and now as friends.
        Good luck and sorry if I bothered you.

      2. No problem at all. Everything is fine. I am very happy for discussions and brainstorming about these directions.
        But I really have no hand or foot in these areas, and I see no point in getting into them. That is not my added value.
        All the best and much success,

      3. You may be right and it would be a shame to enter into the discussion.
        I will just say briefly that if I am indeed a possible representation of a modern national religious identity, then I do, indeed, live in a certain fear and a not-so-easy “split” and often leave my “green” identity deep in the suitcase at Ben Gurion Airport and in the closet at home, in order to secure a place for myself within the conservative religious community in which my life is conducted.

        On the one hand, I am not willing to enter the realm of the lite, but on the other hand, I definitely support the new as something that is permitted and required by the Torah and believe with all my heart that “the old will be renewed and the new will be sanctified.” I believe that we must work to advance the status of women (and my dear wife will prove it), to find a satisfactory solution for all who identify themselves as LGBT, and believe that today's Gentiles are others whom we must learn to accommodate among us in the appropriate manner while fully adhering to the principle of the duty to respect and the right to respect and life and let live, etc. In principle, I am totally opposed to coercion of any kind, including religious, and as a repentant son and a pain to those who repent on the issue, I hope for the application of the egalitarian and balanced process of "turning the hearts of fathers to sons and the hearts of sons to their fathers" as an inseparable part of the duty to respect and the right to respect. Ideas A. To establish things from a research-academic perspective, so that they do not remain beautiful, unproven romances. The more established the “modern religious identity” is, along the lines you place it, the more your words will be treated seriously and with the respect they deserve, and all the naysayers will be silenced.
        It would be a good idea to try to gather around you a few students (preferably with a PhD) who will come up with some research proposals, quantitative, qualitative, in Israel, India, etc. – who will examine the processes, difficulties, struggles, and desired psycho-identity solutions that religious-Haredi society is currently going through, and who will construct studies worthy of respect on the subject.
        B. Beyond that – I very, very much believe in cinema as an explanatory tool. Only recently have media channels such as “Kan”, Channel 13 and others released several courageous series that reflect the struggle that religious society is going through on the path to a renewed identity definition, such as: Shtisel, Srougim, Urim and Tomi, Shab-Avnikim, Shishu and Simchahu, Al-Morudat and recently – Al-Akareh and many more.

        All of these raise difficult questions of modern-religious identity versus a conservative and fixed religious identity, and they deal with difficult issues that fall to us as educators from the closet.
        A few years ago, I had the privilege of being part of an educational outreach team that traveled around the country, screening the documentary “Before You with Trembling” which dealt with homosexuality in religious society in Israel and abroad. We then met with many groups of therapists, therapists, counselors and educators at various schools in an effort to address the issue in advance (over 30% of all suicidal adolescents do so each year - due to distress, question marks and a lot of loneliness regarding their sexual identity).
        In short, I would suggest creating some kind of forum (if it is budgetaryally possible) that would build a documentary film investigation about modern religious identity.
        Personally, I also know several directors and counselors who would be happy to "light up" the subject.

        I have a few more thoughts, I'll save them for later.

        I would love to hear your opinion and maybe even meet for a cup of coffee and discuss things.

      4. Hello.
        I do not deal with films or research. This is not my field. But of course, whoever does so will be blessed.
        I deal with definitions and conceptual, philosophical and theoretical analysis. I would be happy to promote these ideas on a practical level, within the limits of the fields of activity relevant to me.
        Of course, it is always possible to talk.

      5. Good morning and thank you for your answer and the attached phone number.

        I will look at the site at a later opportunity and will try to contact you later through the “Sh”Sh”t” website.

        You write here above “Today there is no need to hide”.

        I am not so sure about this and I connected much more with your words in the article: I appreciate that you heard that the third alternative, modern religiosity, will be conceptualized and placed on the table as a legitimate and consistent religious identity with full halakhic commitment, many on both sides of the current barricade will identify with it, and will abandon the false consciousness that was forced upon them. They will recognize that they are actually “green”, and this is completely legitimate. The anachronistic black and white will be reduced and will essentially become a gray pole that will stand opposite the green pole on both sides of the updated watershed. I don't know how many will stand on each side of the fence, but I assume that we will discover quite a few greens 'in the closet'. Either way, in such a situation at least it will be clear what we are talking about and who is against whom, and where I am in all of this (p. 13).

        Many will identify – I personally will undoubtedly identify and as I have said for a long time I believe that it is necessary to redefine things and stop using all those rusty weapons that sadly stick us deep, deep in the closet. In my words above I was referring to your words “I assume that we will discover quite a few greens in the closet” and I argued that there are indeed many more in the closet of identity and these sometimes find a little psycho-identity outlet in Indian-style initiation journeys, but unlike Abraham our father who ”went there” allowed him to bring out his renewed nature in the world, these return and encrypt their nature deep in their thermals, when they land at Ben Gurion Airport, just before they are going to meet with the Israeliness that is so uncompromising and uncompromising in relation to their new identity.
        The psychologists will come and call this a “moratorium period” or an outbreak of early closure, but it seems to me that we would not be wrong if we determined that all these moratoriums do indeed need an outstretched hand to help them come out of the “closet” in a balanced way, which would not require them to design a new actor character for themselves of Light, Returner or Deathstroke, in exchange for the actor character through which they presented themselves before their journey.

        In a quick search of the National Library website, I found that very little has been written about the issue of identity in recent years, much less about the upheavals that the issue of religious identity – Haredi – national is undergoing. There are several master's theses that may be renewed, that will sharpen the perspective a little (I myself wrote a master's in 2005 about “The Creative Process as a Delicacy of Identity Conflicts” and for that purpose I interviewed groups of converts, re-converts, and secularists, most of whom are engaged in the arts of literature, poetry, and painting).

        However, these are old studies. There is also Daria Maoz's doctorate on identity processes among backpackers in India, but as far as I know, no research work has been done, let alone serious statistical work, to truly understand “who is for us and who is against us” in this matter.

        It would be worthwhile, perhaps, for research students to go out and explore the field – Do you have such a framework that allows this?
        And in general – Regarding activity within the public – I understand that these are your instructive lectures, but beyond that, is there any reserve that deals with advocacy in this field?

        As someone who believes that this is the next thing, I would be happy to explore the possibility of joining and helping.

        Have a successful and good week ahead,

      6. Hello.
        In my words in the article, I did not mean to be in the closet because of fear. It is because of conceptual confusion. People think that if they are not like that then they are not seriously religious and therefore keep things in the closet. From themselves and not just from others. I really do not think that the problem is fear.
        Thank you for your suggestion. I will write it down. Currently thinking about how and what to promote. If you have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

  50. I really enjoyed reading the booklet. However, I have some clarifications.
    1. I distinguish between de facto recognition of the state and psychological recognition and recognition of it and giving any meaning to the return to Zion in our time. De facto recognition means participation in the government as I lived in Poland 100 years ago. In this matter, there is a difference between a religious Zionist perception and a Haredi position.

    There are additional differences between the Haredi position, despite its diversity, and the religious Zionist public, and there is also a very wide variety.
    A. Attitude to general education, de facto or from a positive spiritual position.
    B. Integrating women in public leadership.
    C. The scope of Torah study for boys as well, attitude to studying the Bible, Jewish philosophy, and more.
    D. Torah study for women as midrashes and more
    It is indeed true that the public called Haredi is found in many areas in both groups, and thus its sociological name is not appropriate.

    1. I agree with all of this, and I still think the watershed is not Zionism. These are differences in dosage or in various motivations (which also vary). The principled line today is modernity and liberalism.
      I didn't understand this section at all. You point out the differences in relation to modernity. That's exactly what I was talking about.
      As I explained, it's not just the Haredi. Ironically, the entire religious community is led in this way, even though it's really not there for the most part.

  51. As a subscriber to Makor Rishon, I received the booklet "The Third Identity."
    I agree with your analysis, but two things still bothered me.
    1. When you talk about liberal Judaism, I think you are referring to traditionalism, and if so, where is the reference to a large part of the people of Israel, most of whom are Mizrahi?
    By the way, this reminded me of Mr. Rivlin's Four Tribes speech, in which he simply forgot to count me and my ilk (a traditional peripheral Mizrahi)
    2. You wrote: "Many see Naftali Bennett's fall as evidence of the failure of liberalism and the absence of a real electorate."
    Not true!!!!
    I voted for Bennett twice!!
    His failure stems from his act of deceit!!
    His failure stems from the madness of grandstanding to be a prime minister with six seats!!
    His failure stems from the act of fraud!! He promised to go with the right and went with the left and with the haters of Israel.
    I'm sorry you didn't express this act of fraud!

    1. If you're interested, you should go to my website and see the discussions surrounding the booklet (which was posted there as column 500). Your claims about traditionalism were made, and only today did I post column 501 that answers them. As for Bennett, he did promise and not deliver, but my claim is based on the proportion of the response and not on the actual condemnation of him, which I can understand. He also didn't go along with any Israel haters. That itself is part of the demagogy I was talking about.

  52. Good week,
    I read the manifesto “The Third Identity” that you wrote, and there are a number of points that you ignored in the manifesto and that should be noted:
    1.
    First of all, a distinction must be made within the second identity, the “Zionist-Religious”, between two streams: the “Line” and the “Center Stream”.
    The “Line” does indeed act on many issues like the Haredim (as you mentioned) and does indeed oppose what you call “modernity” (they call it post-modernity, see the next point). The “Center Stream” (which is led by the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva) acts differently. For example: sitting with an Arab party in a coalition or abstaining - the Haredi parties and the ”Kauf” will support it and the ”Center Stream” will oppose it. Another example is the “Nahala” settlement operation last summer: the ”Kauf” objected to it, while the ”Center Stream” supported it. An interesting attempt to divide the two is by asking what the most pressing and urgent problem is to solve. The ”Kauf” will answer that the ”culture war” is the main thing, and therefore they will be the first to fight ”Western culture” (And actually, in what you call modernity) even at the cost of sitting with Arabs - while the "center stream" will answer that the war on the land was and still is the main one, and therefore will not agree under any circumstances to sit with them (and in fact many of the "center stream" rabbis are not ardent opponents of technology. Rabbi Yaakov Shapira, Rosh Yeshiva Merkaz HaRav, has a smartphone [which would be highly unusual in Kavu], as does Rabbi Druckman). This distinction is important when we come to talk about the streams in the religious and Haredi community, because there are actually four: the first identity - the Haredim (who present a fairly unified front on the matter), the "Kavu" (which you described as the "second identity"), the "center stream" (the two and a half identities), and the "third identity".
    2.
    There are also notable differences between the Line and the Haredim - but in practice the votes in the Knesset will indeed be similar (because there are currently not many bills dealing with these matters). The main difference is the attitude towards ”modernity”, which the Haredim strongly oppose, while the Line will actually accept. For example - women entering the labor market: there is great opposition to the matter among the Haredim public, while the Line has no problem with it. Another example - natural science studies in institutions of higher education, as well as matriculation exams: here too the Haredim will oppose and the Line will not.
    What the Line will oppose is ”post-modernity”, as they say. For example: the LGBT movement. The Line has no Nothing against LGBT people as individuals, they (and the Center Stream in general) have a problem with the attempt to say that this is “normal” and ”legitimate”. From their perspective, this is supposed to be a coping mechanism (since Halacha prohibits the realization of such tendencies, such as ”gender-conforming”surgery”or male-dominated sex) and not something to be proud of in public - and certainly not in front of children and youth who have not yet formed their identity and this may actually confuse them with their own identity. Another example (not necessarily postmodern) - the Chief Rabbinate: The ”Kav” agrees that there are changes that need to be made in the Chief Rabbinate, but not as aggressively as in the kashrut reform. In contrast, the Haredim hardly care - since they themselves do not trust this system.

    PS: I would love to understand how the goals of the LGBT movement or the Western Wall plan can be implemented without violating halakhah.. At the moment I don't see such a way. (And in general, I would love your response)

    Full disclosure: I study at the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva, but my opinion does not represent the opinion of the Rosh Yeshiva and the elders.

    With the aspiration to live a Torah life with vigor
    and in anticipation of the Ariel building,

    1. 1-2. You shouldn't have written that you study at the Rabbi Center. That's completely clear. If you see two different streams at the Rabbi Center and Mount Moriah, it's clear that you live in the swamp, and it seems like an ocean to you. To someone looking from the outside (like me), it's almost exactly the same thing, and the differences are unimportant, uninteresting nuances. Really marginal (and also concern a very small number of people). I don't want to offend and I'm quite familiar with the megalomania that is common among you (= the global central yeshiva), but I have to say that it's quite funny to me to define someone from these two marginal and unimportant groups as a stream. You could also define our neighborhood as a stream because they live in Lod, and another yeshiva that studies morality for an hour a day and not half an hour as a stream. In my opinion, the dispute between you is a storm in a teacup. In my opinion, it's similar (though not entirely) to the differences in the color of socks between two different Hasidisms. I'll leave the question of which of us is biased to a third person to decide.

      You assume that the state's attitude towards various phenomena should be determined by Halacha. I do not accept this. For me, as a citizen of the state, it is very important that it gives equal treatment to everyone, even if it is against Halacha (and in my opinion it is not). This is a democratic value and I am committed to it, and at the same time I am committed to Halacha. Beyond that, I do not see the state as a tool to impose halachic norms on the public (I also do not believe in coercion at all. And you asked about coercion regarding the commandments of the Achma). If the state needs to impose values, you should be prepared to be forced to violate Shabbat, not marry according to halachic law, and so on, and you should not complain if a majority is formed that will force this. Note that I have raised two different arguments here. Beyond that, there is nothing in halachic law that prohibits homosexuals from raising children. No more than Sabbath desecrators. So why not prohibit Sabbath desecrators from raising children? There is also nothing in halachic law that prohibits giving stipends to homosexuals. What is prohibited is the act itself, and all the wars around it are taboos that stem from conservatism and fixation, and nothing more. I am not even talking about the Western Wall outline. What does it have to do with halachic law? It is a baseless invention aimed at attacking the Reformers, and nothing more.

    2. Regarding the statement that the division between Merkaz and Har HaMor is irrelevant - I agree, I will ignore it for now (although it has more influence on the politicians in the ”Religious Zionist Party” than your neighborhood or the two yeshivahs mentioned above. The very existence of Noam stems from this matter).
      [Blocked article: Merkaz HaRav does not realize the vision of the “World Central Yeshiva” of Rabbi Kook. In his vision, he saw a yeshiva that would be above the sectors that would come to it for a few years - and then the students would return to the places from which they came to teach Torah there. You are invited to read here what Rabbi Kook meant when he spoke about the World Central Yeshivah]

      To the two claims in the second paragraph:
      The ”Religious Zionist” public does not have It is a matter of the state treating LGBT people differently - they are like all other citizens of the state in every way (by the way, a very similar statement can be made about Israeli Arabs who do not support terrorism). On the other hand, we have no interest in actively supporting them. There is no legal prohibition on the "act" (by the way, there was one that was repealed a few decades ago), and I am not sure there is any interest in one either. In a person's private space - let him do what he wants (as long as the rights of others are not violated). The debate is about the public - whether the state as a state should treat a gay couple as a family, whether services related to "gender adjustment" should be included in the health basket. In my opinion, the answer to both questions is negative (since not every minority does something like this. And what about polygamy? [as long as it is consensual])
      There is no prohibition on gay couples raising children, but try to think for a moment from the children's perspective - what is it like to grow up knowing that only one is really my parent, and there is a parent that I (probably) will never meet? Besides, the surrogacy law has other problems (which, in the end, allows for the “renting” of surrogates, and will harm the surrogates' freedom).
      Regarding the claim of “coercion”, there are two opposite answers - we have no interest in coercion on the individual (that everyone should do in their own home what they want, just not in the public space and not expect the state to fund their every whim. The same with Shabbat transportation - drive wherever you want with your own car, just don't expect the state to fund your transportation for you), and on the other hand - there is coercion of norms by the state whether you like it or not (for example: what will appear in school textbooks in civics classes?), and among other things the question of the legitimacy of certain things. This is the reality..

      Regarding the Western Wall outline - just try to think what would happen if they tried to allocate a Shiite plaza on the Temple Mount, or a Protestant plaza in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.. By the way - “Ezrat Israel” There is, and still the "Women of the Wall" continue to fight.. In principle, they can do this with "Ezrat Israel" and the matter will cool down. Incidentally, the Reform movement's website states that this struggle is about legitimacy - and essentially forcing the state to recognize this movement - and here there is more room for opposition from the religious side.

    3. Pay attention to the form of the discussion. You raised arguments, and it turns out that they don't hold water. Now you're moving on to other arguments. When all the arguments from all directions lead in the same direction, I recommend that you think in terms of trends and biases. Most issues are complex and have sides here and there.

      We started with the question of how my positions align with halakha, and we ended with questions of policy. Policy should be discussed according to profit and loss. These are no longer prohibitions.
      The children who grow up with a gay couple know that one of the parents is not a real parent. How is this different from adoption, or a second marriage? There is no problem with that. Apart from the fact that there is no longer a religious argument here.
      As mentioned, you are pulling arguments from the threshing floor and the winepress in favor of your position, but they don't hold water.
      I personally have no problem with consensual polygamy. By the way, neither does halakha. But if that worries you, the main fighters against it are actually the secularists and feminists.
      In my opinion, the loss from coercion is much greater than the loss from not coercion. The Rabbinate is also trying to regulate the issue of marriage and is systematically destroying it. Because of it, most of the public is no longer married in a rabbinate, and thousands are married according to the Mosaic and Jewish law, not in a rabbinate and without registration (which is the most serious). Coercion is usually much more harmful than beneficial, but people are captive to declarations and dogmas and are not willing to reconsider their positions.
      It matters what you say if those who coerced you also have no interest in coercing the individual. Only in public it will be forbidden to observe Shabbat or pray, and there will be no support for religious education.
      To summarize, your arguments are biased in a very problematic way. It seems that you are not really open to considering positions other than those you were raised with. I suggest that you still think and consider what I wrote and not be captive to your current positions, with all due respect to those who express them (rabbis, etc.).
      All the best,

  53. Hello Rabbi Dr. Michael Avraham,

    I read the manifesto and also listened to the podcast with Dr. Roy Yozvitz.

    If I try to summarize my words, I will use your words: Modern religiosity has no soldiers. There is no watershed.

    I disagree with your analysis that a significant portion of the religious public as a whole is modern.

    As far as I understand, the elections and the parties clearly prove this.

    You prefer to dismiss proven reality (elections) and follow a personal assessment. It seems absurd to me.

    You prefer to twist and know the depths of the religious person's heart and twist and think that the opposition (and disintegration) to Bennett and his group is against the backdrop of modernity.

    For the sake of full disclosure, I will state that I am a Bennett voter, but one of those who are ashamed (in retrospect) of having done so.
    If I represent this position, I mean that I chose Bennett because of right-wing national Zionist positions and not because of Moderna.
    I don't begin to understand you on the matter: Bennett and his group stole votes and cut to the left, and therefore they received harsh and violent criticism from their electorate (your words – corrupt, traitors, etc.) and not because of Moderna.
    Moderna there was on the margins with Matan Kahane's activity. The essence was right and left. Bennett and his group violated every essential election promise they made from every platform. (Preventing elections – is not the essence)

    When I read the words, it seems as if you are trying to impose a different reality on the existing reality.
    It seems as if you are trying to raise an ideological wave that does not exist. I can agree that there is a ripple.
    We will distance our testimony from the Israeli Arab public.
    In my opinion, the vast majority of them want the best for the State of Israel (unlike what you wrote about the Haredim).
    If the State of Israel collapses, their alternative is to live under the corrupt Palestinian Authority or under one of the failed Arab states that surround us.
    And in practice, time after time, they elect extremist representatives who compete among themselves to see who is more extremist: representatives of the Muslim Brotherhood (RA), TAAL (Palestinians), or the secular Balad, and they would all be happy to destroy us.
    What significance do the assessments have if the reality for them is anti-State of Israel?
    Just as we should treat the Arab public according to the representatives it elects, so, in contrast, should we treat the religious public according to the representatives it elects.

    And now for something more substantial,
    You write that there is currently no significant difference between religious Zionists and the Haredim in relation to the state.
    I believe that there is an abysmal difference in both ideology and practice.
    The Haredi ideal is the Torah student, while the religious Zionist ideal is all the professions of life in order to maintain a state.
    In practice, the Haredi does not prepare himself for the existence of a state (core studies), while the religious Zionist is everywhere practically and perhaps also ideologically, if he thinks.
    Furthermore, if there are no restrictions, the Zionist will establish a settlement everywhere (including Torah cores), while the Haredi is not interested in this at all.
    One could go on and on about this (the attitude towards the army, etc.), but this is enough to show the gap.

    Furthermore,
    You write: The modern religious is defined primarily through a commitment to modern values, some of which were listed above.
    What you listed above (equality of women, the Western Wall plan, conditions for kiddushin, etc.) are not values.
    These are issues that are in dispute to one degree or another, and everyone decides their opinion according to their rabbis or according to the depth of their understanding of each issue individually. There is no connecting line.
    If I understand you correctly: To a certain extent, you require every religious person to take an issue and study it from beginning to end (Bible, Mishnah, Gemara, Rishonim and Acharonim, Sh”tim, etc.) and to decide for themselves what to accept and what not.
    Not everyone is at your level.
    After all, you are testifying: the general public is not equipped with any overly complex thinking. That is true.
    There is herd mentality/gut feeling/sect/sector/my rabbi, etc. A native landscape pattern. A kind of postmodernism. It depends on where reality has thrown that person.

    In conclusion: There is a watershed with regard to Zionism. Maybe there is no anti-Zionism, but there is an indifferent to sympathetic attitude towards Zionism on the one hand, and an idyllic attitude on the other.
    There is no real watershed with regard to modernity.
    It is nice that you are trying to change reality, but, if you are right, it will take a generation.
    I assume that is not what was intended.

    Best regards

    1. Reality proves that there is a very large electorate for modernity. There are quite a few religious people who vote for secular parties. Much more than the conservatives who vote for Smotrich and Noam.
      You are not the issue. Maybe you voted for him for your own reasons, but in my opinion many voted for him for other reasons.
      By the way, the statements about those disappointed with Bennett have no real coverage. At least those of his voters I met were not disappointed with him at all. So you are really not a representative sample. In my opinion, the statements about the disappointed are based on statements by many people who did not vote for him.
      I do not understand what it means to treat the public according to who they vote for (the comparison you made to the Arabs)? It depends on what issue. I will blame a person according to what he chose and not according to what he thinks, but when I ask myself whether that is really what he thinks, I am not at all sure that his actual election reflects that.
      You explained why in my opinion there is no difference between Haredi and Haredim (and not between religious Zionism and Haredi women). You are simply mixing up the discussions.
      I really do not require everyone to study every issue, but to formulate a position on every issue. Everyone will formulate according to their understanding. By the way, not every issue requires in-depth study of sources. For my part, he should ask rabbis. But the bottom line is that he should act according to his perception and not according to anachronistic determinations.
      I am definitely trying to change reality, but in my opinion, change is mainly exposing elements that already exist inside. I hope I contribute something to this change, and the future will speak for itself.

      All the best,

  54. To Rabbi Michael Avraham, have a good week!
    I have read the booklet you published, “The Third Identity”, Elul 5772, and I would like to respond briefly. A person who invests considerable effort in reviewing, writing, and publishing such important material deserves attention and response.
    I will begin by addressing the analysis and publication of the matter. The approach you presented is generally acceptable to me, and certainly the conclusions, and I have already addressed this distinction in the past. It seems to me that there is a disagreement between us on the terminology, and agreement on the essence.
    To clarify this, I am missing one point in your words: a definition of –Zionism”. You use this concept throughout the booklet, which deals with conceptual distinctions and social characteristics, but for some reason you refrain from defining the concept “Zionism”. I would appreciate it if you could briefly state how you define Zionism.

    Thank you very much,
    Happy New Year

    1. Regarding the definition of Zionism, I do not see the importance of the matter. I think that this is well understood by all of us. For the purposes of the discussion here, I can define it as a desire for the success of the state and for its integration into it (with joy or not) and a principled partnership in the process. In this minimal sense, the main Haredi stream is completely Zionist. Only the slogans remain from their vigorous opposition in the past. There are of course different sentiments, different declarations and different doses of partnership, and yet the principled direction is very similar, and in particular that the distance, to the extent that it still exists, is constantly narrowing. Therefore, I argue that in the context of the questions at hand today, Zionism in this sense is not a central issue, if at all.

    2. To Rabbi Mikhi Avraham, Happy New Year!
      It seems to me that you are offering a very thin definition of Zionism, and in accordance with this definition, the things you wrote in the booklet are indeed well-founded. I believe that it is appropriate to expand the definition and see the Zionist movement as a movement that strove to put the Jewish people through a deep process of modernization, to return them to history, as a people among nations. A modern national movement that aspired to bring about a change in the people of Israel, the main of which was the adoption of the components of modernity, including modern nationalism, the pursuit of national independence, the renewal of culture and progress, and also secularization. The return to the Land of Israel and the establishment of a Jewish state are part of the modernization that characterized the peoples of Europe among whom Zionism emerged. Rabbi Klischer emphasizes this point in his book The Demand for Zion. (I am not offering a definition here, but rather general foundations for characterizing Zionism).
      Accordingly, religious Zionism is a striving to merge the religious world with modernity. The definition I offer for religious Zionism is – Standing at the intersection of two axes: the historical longitudinal axis, from Abraham our father to the end of days, and the latitudinal axis, the here and now, the community, the people, the state, the entire world. Taking full responsibility for these two axes and standing at their meeting point means standing at a turbulent and tense point, where there are never any one-dimensional decisions. This point creates balances and moderates the slide towards extremism. Such was the path of Rabbi Reines, who founded the religious Zionist faction in the Zionist movement in Tarsus, and two years later the high school yeshiva in Lida. A yeshiva designed to realize the foundations of his religious Zionist outlook, and according to his vision, a student council was also established there!
      From this, as I understand it, the division in the national religious public is between: religious Zionists who embrace the combination proposed by Rabbi Raines, and the Haredi, who are national religious but do not embrace the basic foundations of Zionism, as a modern movement, and of religious Zionism that combines modernity with the Torah.
      An attempt to map the issues that currently divide the national religious public (I call it that, and not religious Zionists), reveals a clear fact - they are all areas in which modernity has brought about significant changes in our world. It seems to me that the Haredi, according to their conventional characterization, are not partners in this game. They are still on a different, non-Zionist playing field, although there are also signs in the Haredi public of approaching the Zionist position, and that is a good thing.
      Best regards,

    3. It seems to me that you are just changing names. You state that modernity (and mutual guarantee) is synonymous with Zionism, and thus can leave the seam line on Zionism. But on both sides of the line stand almost the same two groups that I am talking about. So in the end it is mostly semantics.

  55. Hello Rabbi Michi
    I read your brochure with interest, and I disagree almost entirely. In my opinion, your biggest mistake there is the failure to identify the religious-conservative sector (with a hyphen), and from this a misunderstanding that a Zionist and a modern perspective will almost always come together, and not by chance.

    1. I didn't understand the argument. And did I write that Zionism and modernity don't go together? On the contrary, I wrote to Hayda that they do. But I argued that conceptually there is no necessary connection between them, and groups that hold one without the other will testify. And how does all of this relate to my fundamental argument? Tima's words.

  56. I didn't have time to read it properly. It seems to me that the Bnei Brak scholars, and not only them, are once again trying to position the struggle on the Zionist-anti-Zionist axis. So they think this is the axis, or is it convenient for them to hide behind the anti-Zionist barricade so as not to lose the modern hedonists?

    1. In my opinion, it's just a habit of thought. When you're in trouble, you pull out all the arguments. The problem is not Zionism, but separatism against modernity and secularism.

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