Is Lehava a Racist Organization? (Column 484)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
Following the previous column that dealt with sane liberalism versus progressivism, I thought to add another column that looks at racism in a similar way. The trigger was an amusing story (see also here) about the short story contest of the organization Lehava (an association with abstract literary and artistic aims—part of the New Age phenomenon), which I read a few days ago. I then thought that perhaps this very article is itself the winning short story in Haaretz’s short story contest. Disclosure: my son Yosef once won a prize from Lehava for his own short story. Needless to say, he did it for the laughs, but for some reason that wasn’t reported in the media. Perhaps Haaretz, which is Lehava’s mirror image on the left, wasn’t sufficiently interested in stories that don’t fit the agenda.
The short story and its significance
Noa Stern submitted a semi-erotic story (that’s Haaretz’s description; I didn’t read it) that describes a Jewish man who marries a German woman, and it turns out she’s Hitler’s granddaughter. The story won second prize in the contest “Convince Her,” and was deemed helpful to the organization’s righteous struggle against intermarriage. As Haaretz enthusiastically reports, Noa Stern donated the prize money to the integration of Palestinian women into the labor market. Lehava, in its response, indeed kept its poise, explaining that it has no problem with the motives and deals only with the story’s quality and its contribution to their war effort; in that sense, Noa Stern rightly won the prize. Good for them.
I don’t intend to discuss this lovely and pure artistic competition or the anecdote I described, but to use them as a trigger for a discussion of racism. Indeed, in the past I have dealt more than once (see, for example, in Column 10, and especially in Column 445 and also 449) with the definition of racism, and even reached the conclusion that there is no such negative value in itself (it usually reflects either a factual mistake or some other negative value). Still, and perhaps precisely because of that, I thought it worthwhile to discuss whether Lehava and its various branches (“Kach” and related offshoots) express racist positions, and whether there is anything wrong with that.
To the core difficulty
Seemingly, Lehava promotes a halakhic value that is not in dispute: the prohibition of intermarriage. Beyond the halakhic prohibition, it’s hard to deny that Chazal and the halakhic authorities throughout the generations saw a deep flaw in marrying a non-Jew. They viewed it as a betrayal of Judaism and the Jewish heritage. Factually, that’s also true, for children born to such a couple will likely not maintain a Jewish connection, and they and the generations after them will be lost to us forever. Beyond that, even secular Jews—especially older ones who have not yet developed sufficient sensitivity to political correctness—speak of the “silent Holocaust” of intermarriage and the disappearance of Diaspora Jewry. There are state-sponsored research institutes that deal with this, and state emissaries attempt, to one degree or another, to preserve Jewish identity and, within that framework (with concealment within concealment, as required by the new rules), also to encourage aliyah and prevent intermarriage.
If so, it’s not clear why an organization like Lehava is perceived so negatively and arouses such strong feelings of antagonism (also in me). Is it only political correctness? Are we all lying to ourselves? Seemingly, Lehava activists merely dare to say out loud what we all think quietly and to do what we all think ought to be done. And we—not only do we quietly lie to ourselves, we also loudly condemn them, the honest truth-tellers. Outrageous, no?
Incidentally, I’ve written more than once that this is the feeling among many extreme avant-gardists, such as the “shawl women,” continuing through the hilltop youth, and ending with the Ku Klux Klan in the U.S. All of these believe they say out loud and do what most others don’t dare to say or do but think in their hearts. This feeling feeds their self-confidence, and that is the main reason the public fails to confront and eradicate these phenomena. I have no doubt Lehava’s people feel the same. They act out of a sense of mission and are sure their actions save us from ourselves and from the lies in which we are trapped. They are taking the chestnuts out of the fire for all of us. Are they not right?
And yet—racism
First, even if Lehava’s people truly act according to halakha and the values accepted in general Jewish society, that doesn’t mean they are not racists. It’s possible that halakha and our society are themselves racist. One can of course see this as legitimate racism (racism that is not a pejorative), or even as reprehensible racism. In any case, the fact that we all are, factually, like that does not necessarily mean it’s okay. It could also lead to the conclusion that we all need to do some soul-searching, and the result could go either way, including deciding on loyalty to halakha even if it is racist (I won’t enter here into what the right decision is in this context).
But I think there’s something in them beyond loyalty to halakha. This manifests in at least two realms: the absence of conflict, and the identification they make between the halakhic command and the factual characteristics of non-Jews. I will now discuss these two features in turn.
A. The absence of conflict
Even if someone decides to be loyal to halakha despite its being racist, I expect them to have pangs of conscience about it. When I am forced to do something ugly, even if justified, I shouldn’t do it wholeheartedly. On this the Sages expounded the verse said about the subverted city (ir hanidachat): “And He will give you mercy and be merciful to you.” Even when one does an act demanded by halakha (according to the Talmud, this is likely a law not intended for actual implementation), there is still concern that we will lose our compassion and morality. We must do the thing, but it’s important that we do it with a heavy heart. The feeling that accompanies me when I hear the actions and statements of Lehava’s people is that their hearts do not truly ache. This is not a decision between conflicting values but a clean and unequivocal action, with perfect feelings of justice and purity. There are good guys and bad guys here, and we are entirely the good guys.
Incidentally, this is why political correctness manages to operate even among those who believe in marriage within the Jewish people (and oppose intermarriage). The reason is that deep down, decent people feel that this is an ethically and morally problematic approach. They indeed think that the value of preserving Judaism outweighs the racist problematic aspect, but that doesn’t mean there’s no problematic aspect. The sense is that this is a case of “deferred” (dechuya) rather than “permitted” (hutra). People who are not endowed with the capacity for complex thinking can easily get confused and think that such a decision is immoral and racist. Hence arises the critique of the universalists (who in many cases are incapable of understanding and containing conflict situations), and hence also the capitulation of the particularists to political correctness. They simply cannot explain to themselves why the universalist critique is wrong. Both camps fail to understand that deciding a conflict between two values does not necessarily reflect disloyalty to one of them. The fact that someone acts against intermarriage does not mean he does not see the problematic aspect in it. On the contrary, the existence of a conflict before the decision reflects precisely the loyalty to the two clashing values. But that is said with respect to those who criticize the activity itself. The critique of the sense of absolute justice is certainly in place, since it does not contradict the complexity of the situation. I can side with the activity and the statements, but do so with a heavy heart.
Note that equally, the absence of conflict, as can be seen among Lehava’s people, does not necessarily express greater loyalty to nation and halakha, but perhaps a lack of moral sensitivity. People who recoil from such actions, or at least identify with them with a heavy heart, are not necessarily less loyal to nation and halakha. It is quite possible they are in conflict, and therefore it is harder for them to adopt the decision firmly and unequivocally. One can of course accuse them that this isn’t right. A decision in a conflict is supposed to guide our practical activity; otherwise there is no decision. A person who is paralyzed in conflict situations has not truly decided. In saying this I am explaining that weakness, but not necessarily justifying it.
In any case, had Lehava’s people decided against intermarriage and acted against it forcefully, but while being aware that this is a decision in a conflict between two values and accompanied by the requisite stomachaches, I would of course not see any moral flaw in that but rather consistency and determination worthy of appreciation—and indeed loyalty to the values of halakha and Judaism.
B. Normative stance versus factual characterization
Lehava’s people do not content themselves with religious preaching and attempts to persuade people to follow halakha and preserve their Jewish identity. Moreover, they usually speak to populations not obligated by halakha. Therefore, their public-facing focus cannot be the halakhic prohibition, but rather painting the non-Jewish public in repulsive and ugly ways. They explain to women the great dangers in marrying an Arab and in living in Arab society in general. Among other things, they repeatedly say that the whole matter begins with intentional premeditated schemes. He plans to take you to the village and abuse you. He is sub-human; his family is primitive, and so on. They draw a general, sweeping portrait, and are prepared to do so even in cases where it is clearly not true and certainly not necessary. They certainly don’t examine each case on its own merits.
See the first paragraph in the description of their doctrine on the site’s opening page:
The best way to deal with the problem of assimilation is by preventing the problem in advance and addressing the roots of the issue: do everything so that the girl will not meet the gentile; strengthen the separation between Israel and the nations; educate our children to be Jews who are proud of their Judaism, their people, and their land.
Being a proud Jew is excellent. Strengthening Jewish identity and halakhic commitment is certainly legitimate and appropriate. But the separation between Israel and the nations is usually presented tendentiously and inaccurately—certainly if one insists first and foremost on not meeting the gentile. In that way, any nonsense can be sold to us. I assume that in their view these are “holy lies,” but this is a particularly ugly example of such lies (see Column 21).
One must understand that when addressing a non-religious population, propaganda based on commitment to Torah and mitzvot is far less effective. A person who does not keep Shabbat, does not eat kosher, and does not observe mitzvot—and certainly if he looks at the Chief Rabbinate and the form of marriage it offers us—won’t be particularly interested in what the Torah expects of him regarding his marriage. The most natural way to speak to such a person and influence him not to form a relationship with a non-Jewish partner is to describe Arab society and its people in repulsive and tendentious ways.
I want to stress that I do not mean to say that these descriptions are baseless. There are problems in Arab society, and marrying an Arab involves various risks, and yet there is here an ugly and, of course, non-rigorous and incautious generalization. They certainly do not bother to check who is involved and whether these concerns have a basis, but rather generalize. They completely ignore the fact that among Jews there are quite a few problematic marriages as well, and that even among those who married Arabs there are successful marriages. I don’t think the proportions are the same (I haven’t checked, but that’s my impression), and yet these generalizations are problematic. Exaggeration in description and in the proportions of factually correct cases of abuse, or the distorted portrayal of such cases, are problematic generalizations. The fact that there is a prohibition on intermarriage does not necessarily mean that a gentile (including an Arab) is a vile person and that marriage to him is necessarily a terrible risk or a foolish, self-destructive act. And certainly this does not mean that we are dealing with a scheme by the gentile driven by ulterior motives (and not by romance).
Self-examination
I propose that every reader examine themselves: what picture forms in your mind when you think of a romantic relationship with an Arab? When I examine myself and my surroundings (I assume we will also see this in the comments to this column, despite this remark), I find that a typical such relationship is seen as a scheme by the Arab to take control of a Jewish woman and capture her with him in the home. He plans in advance to bring her to the village, abuse her, and Islamize her, all funded by the New Israel Fund with Qatari money. In short, a surefire recipe for disaster. In any case, for me such a picture certainly exists, despite my knowing no statistics that have examined these matters. Of course, one occasionally hears such a story (naturally, a story of an Arab and a Jewish woman living in tranquility and love does not become a front-page headline. Certainly not in B’Sheva), and clearly there are several such cases. But from there to painting a general picture—the distance is great.
Take as an example the case of Sapir Nahum from a few days ago. She lived with an Arab partner (a TikTok star with a criminal record) and broke up with him. At some point she disappeared, and he was suspected. As of these days he is still a suspect (the trial has not yet taken place). I have no clear information on the matter, nor did I check. But already in real time every noble netizen had very firm opinions about this case. Clearly there is a nationalist issue here—something for Lehava to handle. No one considered that a person with a criminal record, even if he is Jewish, is not necessarily a normative, pleasant partner with whom it is advisable to live. I recommend performing a random Google search for “ספיר נחום,” and seeing the results and people’s reactions. Here is a random selection I got from a Twitter search today. Untouched.
In accordance with what I wrote in Column 445 about racism, the problem here is not racism, since in my view there is no such value problem per se. It is a false—or at least biased—description of the facts, and a portrayal of entire populations in a sweeping and inaccurate way that relies on a few examples (even if there are not a few of them). This is a classic case of confirmation bias, where every case I hear about is taken as confirmation of my thesis, and I of course ignore (not necessarily consciously) the existence of other cases. One must understand that the salience of an example is directly proportional to its fit with my theses.
Needless to say, a similar problem exists on the other side in the opposite direction. Those who advocate universalism ignore, consciously or not, the cases of abuse and the problematic aspects that certainly exist in such marriages. For them, it is a noble romance in the spirit of Romeo and Juliet, against social pressures and difficulties, and all of Lehava’s descriptions and examples are presented by them as lies and distortions. But that is of course a lie and distortion in the other direction as well (indeed, there it’s clear there is no racism—but as noted, racism as such is not necessarily a negative value)[1]. Both camps paint an untrue—or at least biased—reality in order to advance an agenda and thus act unethically (see Column 21 on “holy lies”).
I don’t know what Lehava’s people would do if the non-Jews around us were Swedes, Australians, or French. I assume they would also find problems and flawed traits among them (after all, “their flesh is the flesh of donkeys and their emission is the emission of horses.” See below). It is not very hard to find a Swede or an Australian with a criminal record who married a Jewish woman and abused her. In this context, one can examine how the fight against intermarriage is conducted in the U.S. I assume it is much harder there to sell these agenda-driven tall tales, and not only because of political correctness. No wonder the fight against intermarriage there enjoys less impressive successes.
The link between the halakhic command and factual traits
People tend to think that if there is a halakhic command that forbids marrying a non-Jew, it must be based on the non-Jew’s being inferior in some sense: morally, personally, developmentally, and so on. Therefore, if halakha forbids intermarriage, then obviously non-Jews are not human, are wicked, abusive, etc. But that is a childish identification. It is entirely possible that halakha forbids some act even though there is no moral flaw in it. Equally possible is that halakha forbids intermarriage even though non-Jews are regular people like you and me. In my view it is far more likely that it forbids it because it seeks to promote Jewish values and intermarriage harms that—not because of the human level of non-Jews.
Why must the existence of a prohibition force the adoption of certain factual traits? A similar issue arises in the discussion of halakha’s attitude toward homosexuals. The fact that the Torah forbids the act does not necessarily mean there is any flaw in the people or in those acts—not that they are wicked, and not that they are sick.[3] The act is forbidden, that’s all. Moreover, this does not even mean there is a moral flaw in the act. It is a halakhic prohibition and not necessarily a moral one. Eating pork is not morally flawed and is nonetheless prohibited. The same holds for separating terumah, ritual purity/impurity, and more.
As we saw in the previous sections, childish conceptions cannot digest complexity and engage in complex thinking; for them, if something is halakhically forbidden it must also be immoral, and conversely: if something is halakhically obligatory then it is certainly moral. I have shown more than once that neither is true. Straightforward propaganda against intermarriage should focus on the prohibition, not on the dangers. If one wishes to warn about dangers, that too is possible (since there are dangers), but then those should be drawn honestly and fairly, and of course not tied to the halakhic prohibition (which exists even vis-à-vis an enlightened gentile, the pick of humankind).
Halakha’s attitude toward non-Jews
One could claim that Lehava’s people draw on additional halakhic and rabbinic sources that explicitly speak of such traits among non-Jews. Seemingly, it is not only the halakhic prohibition that leads them to portray non-Jews so inferiorly, but also Talmudic and Biblical sources.
Here I will only say that these conceptions (which, in my estimation, are found in circles far wider than Lehava and “Kach”) suffer from a fossilized and superficial reading of halakha. They ignore changed circumstances and adopt Talmudic statements as-is (see my series of columns on Modern Orthodoxy. Specifically regarding non-Jews see Column 476, as well as my articles “The Gentile Whom Halakha Did Not Recognize” and “Is There “Enlightened” Idolatry? On the Attitude Toward Non-Jews and…”).
I’ll take only one Talmudic source as an example, which (justifiably) arouses not a few antibodies in anyone who encounters it. Rabbeinu Tam’s view in Tosafot Yoma 82b is that intercourse with a non-Jew does not forbid a woman to her husband:
“And Rabbeinu Tam explained, in that passage in Ketubot and regarding Esther, that she was not obligated to give up her life to avoid relations with a gentile, for his intercourse is not considered intercourse, and she is not liable to death for his intercourse, for the Merciful One rendered the seed of an idolater ownerless, as it is written: ‘whose flesh is the flesh of donkeys and whose emission is the emission of horses’; and it is like bestiality in general. Consequently, he permitted a Jewish woman who had apostatized and married a gentile, and then repented and the gentile converted, to remain with him; for although it is said, ‘just as she is forbidden to her husband, so she is forbidden to the paramour,’ that applies to the intercourse of a Jew—but not of a gentile.”
He grounds this in the verse “whose flesh is the flesh of donkeys and whose emission is the emission of horses.” Truly shocking. One can, of course, claim that this is an attitude toward non-Jews as our ancestors knew them in their time, who were indeed at a lower human level (see my articles above). But here I want to suggest another possible interpretation: that intercourse which forbids a woman to her husband is only intercourse that can effect marriage (ishut), and therefore only the intercourse of a Jew. Intercourse with a non-Jew is like intercourse with an animal in this respect—that it does not effect marriage (among non-Jews there is no kiddushin and no marriage in the full halakhic-legal sense; the relationship is more natural and less formal-legal-halakhic). Therefore such intercourse does not forbid a woman to her husband. One can bring support for this from additional sources; I won’t do so here.
For the sake of fairness I should note that in other sugyot one sees that this attitude to non-Jews is indeed essentialist and not merely a formal halakhic ruling as I suggested here. But sometimes we are led astray by modes of expression, and we must interpret them in their context and according to the conventions of speech in the text being interpreted. To view such expressions through the lens of contemporary political correctness is anachronistic.
In conclusion, in the two features I have described—the absence of conflict and the presentation of a sweeping and distorted picture—there is a moral and value flaw. Whether we call it racism or call it insensitivity and a biased, incautious presentation of facts about an entire public, it is clear there is a problem here.
Conclusions: Who is a racist?
The conclusion that emerges from this analysis may be surprising to some. A religious person’s opposition to intermarriage has nothing whatsoever to do with racism—so long as he does not base it on collective (incorrect or sweeping) traits of non-Jews but on the halakhic prohibition, and so long as he understands that his decision entails a moral price (the conflict).
It is precisely the secular person who rejects intermarriage who is a racist. He opposes choosing partners based purely on ethnicity/race, with no connection to values. A non-Jewish partner can hold the same values and the same culture as his son or daughter, and he still opposes their marriage. How is that different from opposing the marriage of an Ashkenazi and a Mizrahi? In my view, it is exactly the same.
This also answers Oren’s question from a few days ago regarding Itamar Ben-Gvir. If he acts with the sole aim of preventing intermarriage, there is no racism here—at least not in the pejorative sense. But if to that end he employs stereotypes, portrays Arabs in sweeping and inaccurate ways, and stirs up unjustified hatred toward them—then indeed there is. Since I am not dealing here with specific individuals but with ideas, I will not enter into a detailed examination of the statements and actions of this or that person (and that is also my answer to Yehoshua Benjo’s remark in the same thread, which tried to anticipate matters).
Link to the previous column
I’ll end with a note that ties us back to the previous column. We have seen here another example of how an excessively extreme struggle harms a just struggle. A crusade against those who oppose intermarriage and branding them as racists harms the just struggle against real racism. Lehava is indeed a racist organization—but not because it opposes intermarriage. I too oppose it, and to the best of my judgment I am not a racist (in the negative sense).
Exactly as we saw regarding abortions and the opposition to them, witch-hunting is a matter of religious fanaticism, not a matter of a value-based struggle. Seeing everyone who thinks differently from me as a witch, inflating any phenomenon that has a whiff of a problem as if it were a Holocaust—these are expressions of childish thinking that cannot digest complex situations, exactly as I argued in the previous column.
[1] This is a good example of the distortion in discourse created by the “racism” label that is attached to other value problems (and hence the importance of the analysis I did in Column 445). Thus it turns out that in situations where the same value problem exists but one cannot attach to it the “racism” tag, it is not perceived as a problem.
[2] On the distorted perception of the gentile in the religious public, see my article “The Gentile Whom Halakha Did Not Recognize.”
[3] As for their being “sick,” see my debate with Yoram Yovel in Columns 25–26.
You are of course opposed to mixed marriages, but from the armchair. Apparently, to take action you need more passion, that is, flame. If you present a sane alternative that also works, the arguments will have more significant moral weight.
I recently checked what is happening on the ground. The Lehba organization is the only one that takes financial and other responsibility for the cases under its auspices until the end. Rehabilitation includes everything. This is not only during the ’racist’ phase of the extraction from the Arab village, but for many years afterwards.
And another fact about the scope of the phenomenon: they receive between 5 and – 10 new inquiries every day.
I wasn't dealing with the question of who is more successful and effective, but rather with the question of whether this is a racist organization. At most, one can conclude from your words that they are a successful/necessary racist organization.
A similar example. I claim that Chabad Chassidism is a cult. You can of course rightly claim that it has many achievements. In a group that is not a cult, it is difficult to achieve such dedication. Does that mean that it is not a cult?
In fact, what you are saying is that this is a kind of holy lie (i.e. an attitude that operates and expresses itself in obscene racism in order to succeed in promoting worthy values), and I myself commented on this in the column.
By the way, regardless of the discussion, I would not rely on data provided by an organization about itself. Beyond that, the question is who is the applicant: the spouse themselves? The concerned parents? Not every application reflects a problem and human distress. Sometimes the parents apply because they do not want a mixed marriage, but the daughter or son gets along fine with it. There is of course a religious-halakhic problem in every such couple. And I would add that I estimate that if you count the calls from women in distress who are married to Jews, you will find many more.
And another note. The removal from the village is not a racist act. I hope you read my words.
Although I believe it is a moral flaw.
To correct, which is not in it
thanks
Regarding the "holy lie": In the issue of the end justifying the means, one must weigh the importance of the end against the severity of the improper means and in comparison with the available alternatives. In the light of all of this, the current lie is indeed very holy.
And in my opinion, absolutely not. And I think it is also forbidden halakhically. It is forbidden to harm one person in order to save others.
Not only successful and necessary. I argue that if the central element is hatred, it does not provide enough motivation for the Sisyphean effort of prolonged rehabilitation. In other words, there is more love here than hatred, even though the hatred comes across more clearly on camera.
Regarding the data, they are from my personal conversation with Anat Gopstein due to a specific case I handled.
You are again mixing gender with non-gender. Love is for the people of Israel and hatred is for the Arabs. And I don't know which one of them is stronger than which. But I was only talking here about the attitude towards the Arabs and not the attitude towards the Jews. So what does that have to do with each other?
There is no escape from generalization. How can we act in the world without classifying styles and cultures?
Just as a person who arrives in the US immediately absorbs the general culture, even if he happens to be an American, the attitude towards the nation still does not change,
and since there is no dispute that Arab culture does not correspond, to put it mildly, to Jewish culture, it is clear beyond any doubt that the absolute majority of cases end badly.
You don't need studies to understand this. And your claim that there are cases where it has succeeded is incomprehensible.
I have no problem with generalizations, as long as they are correct generalizations and not biased and distorted. When you say that in most cases this and that happens (if indeed this is the majority) it is a reasonable generalization. When you make people think that this is usually or always the case, it is an invalid generalization.
By the way, your words here are a great example of an invalid and baseless generalization. You make an a priori assumption and draw a factual conclusion from it, when it is quite clear to me that what motivates you is an agenda. You don't need any research to understand that your words are baseless.
Why is a parent's healthy desire to prevent conflict and problems with a marriage with an Ashkenazi or Mizrahi considered racism?
In Haredi, there is a huge cultural and mental gap (and this is maintained for the benefit and in the hands of institutions, businessmen and mediocre politicians from both sides, and probably also rabbis) between most Mizrahi and most white people.
And a natural desire to prevent complications in advance will tell me to educate my daughters and sons from a young age to be careful of contact with members of the other community.
Surely (if) they really are mentally inferior and morally undeveloped.
I seriously ask my 2 matchmaking daughters.
I've devoted several columns to this. In short, if the motive is only Ashkenazi or Sephardic, it's racism. If there are real concerns, then maybe not. But presenting imaginary concerns as real also reflects racism.
On the 1st of Tammuz, 5772
To the father of daughters, greetings,
Since the first thing in searching for a spouse is love of Torah, fear of God, and good character, so that both partners will be blessed with these qualities, then the difference in mentality and cultural background can be a blessing. When the good qualities that the members of one community excel in complement the other good qualities that the members of the other community excel in.
For example, the innocence and natural joy of life that the members of the East excel in, the sound of the rising sun and the rising sun - can beautifully complement the tendency for deep intellectual analysis that the members of the Lithuanian Shalit family excel in, and together they will shine like the reeds of a menorah, one against the other in holiness and purity.
The success of combining opposing qualities – Of course, this can only come when there is mutual recognition of the merits of each community, and a willingness to absorb and build on these merits.
The common Torah that we study, in which we absorb the teachings of the Babylonian geniuses with the teachings of Rashi and the French Tosafists, and in which the Rabbi can come from Ashkenazi and be appointed as the rabbi of Toledo in Spain, and his descendants, the Ben-Harosh family, established a Torah school in Morocco, and the Sephardic Iyun is based on the Maharash and the Ashkenazi Mehram Shiff, while the Lithuanian Iyun is based on the Mesna Lemelech and the Sephardic Camp of Ephraim. Teaches us that ’Sadna Dara is one’ and we all perceive each other and enrich each other.
If we compare man to a ’tree of the field’ – then we must learn that the combination of different species – leads to the strengthening and improvement of the properties of the complex species, which combines the advantages of both species, and the poet has already established that ’a wise farmer knows… that the species should be praised and improved by its combination’ 🙂
And perhaps it is not for nothing that Tu B'Av, when we add to the study of Torah – is also the day when ‘Torah tribes marry each other’, that Torah brings about mutual openness.
With blessings for a successful match, Gamliel Gevriahu Greengrass-Girondi
Paragraph 2, line 2
… The tendency for deep mental analysis that Lithuanians excel at…
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… It is also the day when ‘tribes were allowed…
It should be noted that marriage itself is a union between a man and a woman, between whom there are profound differences in background and mentality. This union of opposites can only be achieved by special divine help when the "Shekhinah" is between them, but it is conditional on the mutual recognition of the couple that each needs completion and acceptance from their partner.
With blessings, G.G. G.G.
I think there is something about organizations like Lehva and others that is discouraging. Leftists often compare themselves to neo-Nazi gangs. Of course, the comparison is completely demagogic. But the comparison itself stems from the fact that in this case they really use a very violent style that is reminiscent of racist gangs. A style that really puts violence and power as a goal in itself. The violent creatures. The screams. And the declaration: "We are putting a stop to you and your entire cultural world." When you give space to desire and violence, their goal appears to be in itself and not a means to uphold some halakhic or religious value.
For example, it is enough to recall the humiliation they proudly inflicted on Lucy Harish. There was a smell and even a very chauvinistic scent in the background.
The shock that is often felt by them. And indeed the younger and more nationalist generation. Is similar to the shock that is often felt by statements like the perverts. The abominable. The wicked. The whores. The wicked. . Of many YouTube rabbis and rabbis of peripheral neighborhoods. The criminal and belligerent style is simply alienating.
They themselves I can sign with both hands and bet on that. In my opinion. They do indeed hate Arabs. And in my opinion they do not like any gentile in general (and the statements they published about liking a person who was created in the image and of course we have nothing against any person. They are, of course, nonsense).
But you also mentioned it in the post. Many of us don't like Arabs. And gentiles in general. I'm pretty sure that the average Haredi would have an instinct to vomit if he shook hands. Or hugged someone and it turned out that he was a gentile. And many times after washing his hands, he also remembered to say or reflect, "For God's sake, I touched a disgusting gentile creature, may his name and memory be erased." There is nothing in these words to incite incitement or to stigmatize me Haredi. This is the impression I get from the statements of their rabbis regarding the relations between Israel and the nations. And my question is why I don't shy away from Haredi rabbis and Haredi in general who, on this issue, at least think like Lehav, and maybe more extreme?
Maybe it all comes back to the matter of style again. A respected rabbi. A haredi who will express himself as women in the kitchen. And he will justify it with halakhic statements. He is just a decent and innocent guy in my head. He clings to very radical halakhic patterns. The average haredi who detests with every fiber of his soul and heart the abominable gentile. He probably recognizes every gentile as a cruel Roman soldier who wants to slaughter him. And clings to conservative and also somewhat primitive patterns and perhaps a little disconnected from reality. The rejection of organizations like Lehva is that they use modern, secular language rhetoric that is violent and racist. And then they dress up the halakhic and ethical justifications. There is hatred here that is combined with basic dishonesty and lack of awareness. Something inauthentic that feels very fake. And that already repels me. More From the hatred itself. I could live with it.
None of this concerns the characteristics I described here. It is clear that feelings are affected by the form of expression, but I am dealing here with the question of whether there is racism here, not whether and to what extent it repels me.
So I don't see what the big difference is between the Lehava organization and any other religious or ultra-Orthodox Jew. I'm sure that at least a large portion of non-Jews do all their actions for themselves. To benefit themselves. And even when they give charity or extend help to this Jew in order to rob him of his rights in this world and the next and transfer the rights to him. I myself am also tainted with stigmas (which have softened over the years and undergone rationalization) in relation to the secular world. The Western secular world of most of the world. And in relation to progressivism, socialism, and so on.
I don't see it that way either. If style is not the essence, what is the difference between the Lehava organization and other people who express themselves in this way on such issues. Even if they express themselves more academically or pleasantly. Rabbi Zeini. For example. Rabbi Aviner. Even Rabbi Sharki makes very unflattering statements about Arabs and other peoples. And only ends up seasoning them with a deep, complex spiritual root from which, according to him, these statements come. And to emphasize that the other side, of course, is also partially human, a little human or with the potential to be human.
What is the difference between them and other storms of provocative statements (Crambo's claws, perverted animals, sick)
And leave the religious national public. Most of the secular ones too. Unless they grew up in a true humanistic education. And there are not many of them in Israel today. They do not like Arabs and people of other nations at all. And are swept away by radical nationalism. Again, most of them. Not the secular academic professors, the famous media people. ”Education”. Or the people of Tel Aviv bohemia.
I understand that this does not justify and the like. And the fact that the majority goes with a direction of thinking from the end does not make this direction correct.
But I identify with what you wrote at the beginning of the thread. That most of the public identifies with "extremist" organizations like these. The only question is in what dosage. Or in what style. But this basis is found in most of us.
You answered yourself. Really, in principle, there is no difference. But note that thinking that the Gentiles act for themselves is of course nonsense, but there is no way to refute it. It is an interpretation that one gives to the actions of Gentiles. On the other hand, saying that they are all violent is a statement of fact. If it is not true, then there is a biased lie here.
In short, they are Haredi
This reminds me of when I studied at Haidar, the fourth grade teacher shouted how the Mazoruzhnikim are irredeemable and they do not observe the commandments and have holes in their domes, etc. There is no dispute, there is black and white, good or bad, and today in the age of the Internet everything is revealed
Ben Gvir 11 seats
There will also be no problem in saying that you voted for ‘Gimel’. After all, ‘Gavir’ and ’Gopstein’ start with G’ 🙂
With greetings, Gavel Ben Gabriel Gilady Gironde
In B”d 3’ Sisyon P”b
Fighting against mixed marriages is not racism, because if the non-Jewish side agrees to convert and truly and sincerely accept the burden of Torah and commandments, then he is accepted with blessing and love. Even someone whose father is a Gentile is accepted with love because of his mother. Is this racism?
With blessings, Hillel Feiner-Glossinos
Hello, Your Honor!
Another suggestion: There is always a difference between the dynamics, characteristics, beliefs, and opinions that emerge from a society compared to the individuals who reside in it. This can be for all sorts of reasons, one of which is the voices of a minority in the group that (un)justly color all the details. For example, as individuals, most Sunni Islam is considered to be a joke, but as a group they are dangerous, violent, etc. because the minority determines. There are other criteria that cause a group to be painted in very specific colors while its details are woven from a very wide variety that fails to reach expression. To wish myself a “good settlement” I will share that we are leaving Tekoa B’, after 18 years in favor of the royal palace we built in Tekoa A. Although as individuals I like a lot of people in Tekoa B’, as a community, we have suffered here to the point of being very happy and are happy about the overlap.
Now a case happens: ” A Jewish girl is tempted or even goes out of awareness and joy to live with an Arab, after a certain period of time she regrets it. When I am supposed to rescue her from a violent person, a Muslim Arab, it is very difficult to impossible to separate the individual as a representative of fundamentalist Islam, from just a nice person who happens to be a Muslim Arab. Especially if I am a proud Jew, this is not a binary movement and most of us (maybe you are not), move from good pride, to racist tendencies, for example after terrorist attacks, and periods in which we do not identify with our Judaism at all but with more universal parts.
All of this was written as a response to the division between holy lies and good values. Sometimes the lie is the truth.
It may be hard, but life is not a cakewalk. Sometimes you have to do hard things. It is not right to treat a particular case through characteristics of the entire Arab society even if they are true. As for holy lies, I have written more than once about my relationship with them. I despise them and even more despise those who need them. A lie is always a lie and never the truth (only in Orwell is a lie the truth and ignorance is power and slavery is freedom).
I think you're confused by the majority of the focus of the Lehava organization, this is not the case where a girl from Tel Aviv University meets her soulmate, Mohammed, from the nearby class in the lawns.
But rather girls from a low socioeconomic status with a problematic past.. Remember that in Arab society it is common to have several wives compared to Jewish society. In any case, the people who approach these girls are usually a slightly different type of people than the type you recognize as Arabs on a daily basis at Bar Ilan.. And Lehava warns a lot about these cases. Only when there is something widespread in the media about public assimilation then it is something else, but I think you can agree with that even there. They do not claim that the same connection between two celebrities will lead to violence in X years. But a connection created from the street by Manat Davinim and Tzomet Lev turns out to be so.
Absolutely not. The girls who are tempted can come from families of high socioeconomic status who are in a mental crisis or simply fall under the spell of people who seem educated and cultured and treat them with chivalrous kindness, only that after the wedding in the village the attitude changes. According to Sapir Nahum, her boyfriend was an impressive "star of the sky", which did not prevent him from being a supporter of nationalist and violent terrorism.
There is also such a phenomenon in the Jewish sector of educated, nice and cultured people who over time turn out to be violent husbands, but for various reasons, in Arab society violence in general and in the family in particular - appears with high frequency, and despite the political "improperty", it is impossible to ignore the reality, and there needs to be someone to warn about it.
All this is apart from the very problem that exists in mixed marriages, even if the foreign husband is as nice and gentle as he is - the Torah forbade mixed marriages, "for he will turn your son away from following God."
With blessings, Yekutiel Shneur Zahavi
In my opinion, the column is unfair. Let me guess, you have no idea what really happens in the relationship between Jewish women and Arabs, what percentage of them experience violence, etc. Since they have been dealing with the issue for years and years, I assume they know the reality on the ground much, much better than you do. Of course, it can be argued that they are exaggerating, generalizing, etc., but from knowing the data and not shooting from the hip.
Another thing, we must distinguish between statements by all sorts of guys who wear flame shirts and claim to represent the organization, and the heads of the organization and the people who actually work there
It's not at all a question of who knows better. They clearly know better. I made two arguments, and if you want to argue, you should address them.
It is very important to note that 99.9% of Lehava's activity is against the assimilation of Jewish and Arab women.
The argument is not racist, but simply a simple rational argument - a relationship with an Arab will end with a relatively high probability of serious harm to the woman (abuse, beatings, imprisonment, murder).
There is no racism here, but rather a look at the facts.
It's obvious you didn't read the article, and I must say that this is definitely a characteristic of racists. In many cases, they formulate a position based on stereotypes without considering the arguments that are raised on the matter.
Have you seen data on the murders of women in the Arab sector?
“and presents the Arabs in a general and incorrect way and incites unjustified hatred towards them, then there is and there is. . . ”
I was referred to this blog on the grounds that the writer is a direct and impartial person, and also knows how to explain himself.
So how can it be that the claim that violence against women in the Arab sector is something “general and incorrect” if the facts show the opposite?
I saw the data, and it's irrelevant to the discussion. I didn't say there aren't murders, or even that there aren't many murders. Read the things and respond in a matter-of-fact manner.
There was an interview with Gopstein at the time in which he was asked if he was a racist and he replied that since the Shulchan Aruch permits the conversion of anyone, then he is not a racist. If that person converts, then he is the first to support him. He also added that the Levant are among the only ones who support converts from the Arab sector. Jews usually treat them with suspicion and racism. They also oppose intermarriage with Western gentiles.
There is something to the claim that there is a conflict here and that the Levant ignores the conflict. On the other hand, when the decision is unclear, we reach unfortunate places.
I explained why I think they are racist. If you are arguing, you should consider my arguments.
The comments here remind me of a section in the column where I foreshadowed what was about to happen (see in parentheses). And here is the pearly language:
I suggest that every reader examine himself, what picture emerges in his mind when he thinks of a relationship with an Arab. When I examine myself and my surroundings (I assume we can also see this in the comments to this column, despite my comment), I discover that such a typical relationship is a plot by the Arab to take control of a Jewish woman and occupy her with him in the house. He plans in advance to bring her to the village and abuse her and convert her to Islam, all of this financed by the New Israel Fund with Qatari money. In short, a surefire recipe for disaster.
And it sounds good.
I agreed with most of what you wrote and with your attempt to criticize the inflationary use of the term racism. But in the conclusion of the article, you also commit the same “inflation”: racism is related, surprisingly enough, to ”race”… that is, to the belief (which is probably scientifically incorrect) that there is a physiological and biological distinctiveness to certain groups and that this distinctiveness is necessarily reflected in culture, values, intellect, and the like.
It is clear to me that the people of Leh are not models of rational and moral thinking, but what does that have to do with racism? As far as I understand, they do not think that there is a distinct Arab “race” and in any case, your entire thesis about them collapses. As someone who claims to know them pointed out here, they show a very positive attitude towards Arabs who choose to convert and do so over the years (assuming this testimony is correct). An authentic racist could never act like this, that's the whole point.
It's a shame that those who come to contribute to a clearer and more rational discourse on this subject destroy with one hand what they built with the other.
I referred to other discussions I have had on racism. There I explained, what requires no explanation except to those who insist on insisting, that when people say racism in these contexts they mean stereotypical generalizations (profiling) of groups. It seems to me, unfortunately, that you will have to look elsewhere for the destruction, confusion and intellectual ambiguity that I am sowing in the world.
Ahhh... now I understand everything.
How funny I am that I didn't realize it until now. Other people make poor use of the concept of racism and you, in a deep intellectual discussion that tries to analyze the root of the concept, simply adopt their poor definition. It's not you at all, it's them. I'm convinced.
In my opinion, you have created a straw man for yourself by coming to this discussion. I really don't think that there is a consensus among Jews that every Arab who wants to marry a Jewish woman is financed by the New Fund and is entirely dedicated to a plot to bring her to the village and abuse her.
The consensus is that given Arab culture and the legitimate scope of what can be done there for women, and considering that a Jewish woman who moves to the village is cut off from her natural environment and is therefore completely dependent on the mercy of her husband and also has no relatives and relevant people to help her calm him down when needed (usually this is also a girl from a difficult background regardless), and considering that she is considered less as a Jew in the first place, then there is a significant probability that one day when her husband gets angry with her, and this is of course not a far-fetched vision, the result could be very painful, literally. Of course, murder is an extreme case, but abuse is very common. It is ridiculous to compare this to marriage with a Jew who lives in a different culture, and the woman is still in her natural environment. Of course there are also Jews who abuse, but the comparison is absurd.
It is a matter of familiarity and knowledge and has nothing to do with white lies.
Nowhere did I make a comparison. I said there are also Jews who abuse, but that doesn't mean I'm comparing. The question is whether the two characteristics I gave to Lehva's racism are correct or not. Everything else is irrelevant.
You wrote a side note to Koula if the ’racism’ stems from a halakhic perception, and two sides to the grave if there is no internal conflict and if factual characteristics are extracted from the halakhic and a distorted picture is presented. Is it true that all of this, according to your hidden and invisible system, is judging the person according to his system, and therefore if the actions stem from a halakhic perception then there is no room for criticism even from someone who does not accept the halakhic perception, and if there is no internal conflict this proves that he is immoral within his own innermost soul, and if he presents a distorted picture then he is a liar and if he was influenced in his image by the halakhic then he interpreted it in a childish way and deserves criticism for that.
If so, then it does not seem clear to me what your mind is. If we are discussing according to his system then it is clear that each of them thinks in their hearts that they are doing the right thing. It is clear that he thinks that he interpreted the Halacha correctly, and that his picture is correct and not distorted, and if he thinks that his picture is correct, then in his opinion, holy lies are a proper thing. And there is no room for criticism about anything. After all, it is clearly not true to say that the enthusiasts themselves know that they are wrong and are tempted by their evil instinct to bother day and night about that matter. But of course, no one really cares about the motives of so-and-so unless he manages to convince them that they are justified, but if the motives are wrong, then the criticism is about the result and not about the intricacies of the personality. The question of whether so-and-so is righteous at heart or wicked at heart is simply a question that is completely uninteresting for any practical public need and is not addressed. Those who denounce condemn so-and-so based on the results he produces and the conclusions he holds and works to realize them. And according to this, both the side for the sake of it and the sides for the sake of it seem irrelevant.
[Correction, instead of correct, the word is incorrect]
And if he thinks that his image (i.e. the image he presents in his propaganda) is incorrect, then in his opinion, holy lies are a proper thing
You repeat my arguments and then put a question mark at the end. I'm surprised!
I too have written more than once that one should not criticize a person except for his method. But there is certainly room for criticism of the method. And if the method was formulated on a negligent basis, then criticism of the method also reflects criticism of the person.
(What is meant by “I also wrote” who wrote like that besides you and what is his point here?). If the criticism is of the method and the person who has the method himself is pure, honest and lovely, then indeed my question is irrelevant. But if the criticism is of the method alone, then what is the point of the difficult feelings you described that arise, and the argument from the absence of conflict also becomes meaningless in practice because the one who holds on to this method itself and confuses it, this conflict does not change the method itself (conflict is a second-person singular).
Is the criticism of negligence according to the method of the person being audited? (meaning that he knows that he was negligent in clarifying the method and gave in to his evil inclination)
You wrote this and presented it as if there was a different position here. I pointed out that this was actually my own position. And indeed, your question is irrelevant. Therefore, I am puzzled by your puzzlement.
Feelings can also arise in relation to a bad method, even if people truly believe in it, and perhaps that is precisely the case.
Beyond that, I pointed out that there is also guilt in a person if he adopted this bad concept negligently. He does not need to know that he was negligent. Negligence is a defect by its very nature.
I understand, thank you.
Just one detail, negligence is a person's fault even if in his opinion he was not negligent, but reaching a wrong conclusion without negligence is not a fault in a person who in his opinion is right. The reason is that against negligence there is a practical claim that he will not be negligent and against a wrong moral conclusion there is no practical claim that he will change his mind?
This is a delicate philosophical question. I think that a person who is negligent cannot claim that he did not know that negligence is forbidden. A person needs to understand that negligence is not allowed and if he is negligent, he takes responsibility for his mistakes. This is not like a person who does not know that there is negligence here. Like a kind of division from the empty to the upper in a woman.
And yet, according to Leventi and Anat Gopstein, who are preoccupied every day with dozens and hundreds of complicated cases of rescuing captives and their children, one should not claim “negligence” for their failure to invest in reflective, complex research. They also need to earn a living, raise a happy family, and handle an endless stream of recurring cases. They can be forgiven for not investing in philosophy 🙂
With best regards, J.G. Gargmal
The problem with Lehava is that they are paternalistic. They think they know what is right for other adults. Does a person in Nine Cabins want to make his own mistakes over the mistakes of his friend? Let people make mistakes. What is more terrible than a demonstration in front of the wedding of an assimilated couple who did not invite them? Who is it that decides what is good for that Jewish woman? Intervention in the lives of adults should be reduced as much as possible
And even if you say that the activity to prevent mixed marriages is mainly motivated by a negative attitude towards Arabs, the constant need to listen patiently to girls, who are not always "locked in" to the desire to separate from their foreign husband, leads to great empowerment in the direction of sensitivity and patience. And "from not for her sake, we come for her sake" 🙂
With greetings, Gilad Chiya Gvariahu-Grushinsky
I was familiar with “the flesh of donkeys”, but not the context in the Tosafot. I also understand the Tosafot as technical and not explicitly racist, but in a different way (closer to the literal interpretation in my opinion). God abandoned the seed of idolaters, like the seed of beasts – meaning their seed is not attributed to them, and has no halachic meaning except to the mother. Assuming that the original purpose of the prohibition of adultery is to prevent a situation where the husband supports the seed of the adulterer (and more importantly, leaves him an estate), it becomes less relevant if the Torah does not recognize the seed as the seed of the adulterer.
I can't say that this description doesn't already make me sick to my stomach…
Very nice explanation. Regarding the stomach pains, you must remember that if there is no presumption that the majority of the reasons are behind the husband, then factually it is not correct to attribute the son to his father. What the Torah abandoned his seed for is the result of factual circumstances, and then the stomach pains decrease. Of course, a change is required in the place and society where the situation is different. I do not think that today there is a difference between Gentiles and Jews in this matter.
“The Value of Preserving Judaism”
As a secular person, I truly and sincerely do not see what value there is in preserving Judaism and I am really, really serious. I would love a brief explanation that is suitable for a secular person because personally, in the ”religious” part of Judaism, I see a mixture of general humanist values that are generally respected by all nations and other values of You have chosen us and other “values” that I see as “anti-values”
For example, you write “Eating pork is not morally wrong either” – Really? Is killing an animal like a pig not morally wrong? The treatment of animals in the Torah is very consistently terrible. Already in the flood, God destroys all living things on earth because of man's sins. Then he says, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” When he prevents Abraham from immediately slaughtering his son, he calls for a ram. In the plague of firstborns, he also destroys the firstborn of the cattle, for no wrong is done to them. For himself, he demands two whole year-old lambs, one for the morning and one for the evening. And so on and so forth. There are many “anti-values” in Judaism, and I am not going to list them all here. As an activist for animals and as someone who documents what is done in pig farms, barns, battery pens, fish ponds, fattening pens, live shipments, and more, I claim that religion makes a great and important contribution to the disregard for the lives of animals. Very few rabbis speak out against the animal industry, even though they are commanded by Torah to prevent animal cruelty. Most of the world of kashrut is based on a separation between meat and milk - two products that, in my opinion, are one big prohibition. Judaism is racist, the attitude towards a gentile is different from the attitude towards a Jew, and we remember the words of Rabbi Kook: "The difference between the Israeli [Jewish] soul, its inner desires, aspirations, characteristics and position, and the souls of all gentiles, of all their ranks, is greater and deeper than the difference between the human soul and the soul of an animal, between the latter there is only a quantitative difference, but between the former there is a qualitative difference." And it has many more "anti-values," at least in the eyes of the average secular person.
Hello. There are some very fundamental flaws in your statement, but in essence you are completely right in your opinion. So I will start with it.
As a secular person, you are Jewish only factually (and halakhically), but not in any other essential respect. Your lifestyle is not Jewish in any moral sense (you speak a Jewish language, etc., but these are just neutral facts from a moral point of view). And if you are not Jewish at all now, it is natural that you do not see a reason to continue Judaism. Why would you have such a reason, if you do not already observe it? Judaism as a value is only halakhah. Everything beyond that is universal values and has no connection to Judaism. Others observe them no less well than we do, and for them it is clear that there is no value in preserving Judaism.
From the perspective of a secular Jew (one who is not committed to halakhah), Judaism is an ethnos, that is, a cultural-genealogical fact, and facts have no value. Therefore, there is really no point in preserving them. If the world does not speak Hebrew – They will speak a different language (from my side, Assembly), if they don't read Amos Oz - they will read another writer or the same translator. There is no reason in the world to preserve these arbitrary facts. So far, your claim to your own system is correct. I of course think there is value in preserving Judaism because, in my opinion, contrary to you, there is value in its existence. I believe that the values of halakhah contribute to the achievement of other values, not moral values, and this is the value in the existence of Judaism and halakhah. Although I usually don't know how to point to these goals and values, I believe that the Almighty who said this knows what he is talking about.
Now for the flaws in your words.
The criticism you raised here of the values of Judaism is problematic in several respects.
1. You take statements by Rabbi Kook and criticize them as if this were Judaism. But I, too, as someone who is committed to the "values of Judaism," do not accept them. It's like taking the teachings of a certain philosopher and using them to criticize secularism or humanity.
2. The values of Judaism do not claim to correspond to moral values. They are intended to achieve other, religious, moral goals that are immoral. There is a correspondence, coincidental or not, between some of them and morality, but this is a rare case. To me, your argument is similar to the argument that you don't like medicine because it hurts people (surgery, chemotherapy, etc.). This pain is indeed problematic, but it is done for the sake of another value. The same is true of immoral and amoral commandments in Judaism (in Halacha). I act in this way to achieve more important moral goals, and therefore sometimes it requires a moral price. Moral criticism of Halacha expresses a lack of understanding (which also exists within the Jewish world).
3. When I wrote that eating pork is not morally flawed, I meant eating pork and not eating animals in general. My argument was that there is no moral flaw in it simply because it is a pig. This has nothing to do with the question of eating animal flesh. That is a different question, and I have written about it here more than once that I agree that it is not appropriate to do so (although in my opinion it is because of the terrible suffering caused by the industrial process, and not because of the actual consumption of animal flesh). By the way, I hope I don't need to remind you that consuming animals is not specifically characteristic of religious Jews. So perhaps there is no point in continuing humanity at all.
In the S”d of Av P”b
Ramda”a – Shalom Rav,
Judaism actually has a moral statement. There is a fundamental difference between humans and animals. Animals are allowed (after the flood) to devour each other. Humans are not allowed to kill each other, but they are allowed to use animals and even kill them for human needs, while avoiding unnecessary animal suffering.
It is impossible to maintain modern medicine without animal experiments, and it is impossible to nourish humanity with the necessary proteins without meat and fish, milk and eggs, certainly not at a price that is affordable for everyone. There is much to be done to improve the conditions of animals, to encourage free-range breeding, and to ensure that slaughtering prevents suffering, such as Jewish slaughter in which blood flow to the brain is stopped within seconds.
The moment one tries to be more moral than the Torah and compare humans to animals, one loses one's moral inhibitions towards humans, and thus human beings appear who are full of hatred towards humans and towards Jews in particular. In the best case, they are ready to give up on the existence of Judaism, and in the worst case, they will be happy to give up on the Jews as well. After all, they are the bearers of "anti-moral Judaism"; When one passes over "do not be too righteous", it is not far to pass over "do not be too wicked".
Erasing the distinction between humans and animals also invites the application of evolution to humans. Why don't we apply what happens in the living world, where there is "natural selection"? Where the fittest survive and the genetically defective are thrown off the assembly line. Why don't we adopt the same method that will improve the Homo sapiens by preventing the weak from spoiling the proper development of the human race. The idea has already been raised before, and out of respect for Godwin, I won't mention who 🙂
Best regards, Luingari Godwinowski
Dear responder. I read your words and I see in them a clear justification for the sentence that I absolutely advocate “The Torah is the disaster of animals”. I already wrote in another response that if God destroys all animals in the flood (except for the aquatic ones of course) because man sinned – He carries a very clear message that animal life has no value. Same after the flood with the famous verse “They came down from the fish of the sea …And from every creeping thing that creeps on the earth”. And then with the whole issue of sacrifices and the gruesome detail – Which animal is fit for eating and which is not and with his appetite for two whole year old lambs every day for the daily sacrifice. All the work of the High Priest on the holiest day for the Jews in the holiest place is washed in blood.
In my opinion, every person's faith is valid only to the tip of his nose and no further. That is, he is allowed to exercise his faith only on himself and not on others, otherwise what good would it do for us to mourn the martyr who blows himself up on a bus in the name of his faith or the ISIS fighters who commit atrocities in the name of their faith. Faith is not a fact, it is just a belief. Those who were born Jews will believe in Judaism and those who were born Muslims will believe in Islam and those born to Hindu parents will believe in Hinduism. This clear statistical observation shows us that faith generally corresponds to the diskette implanted in us by our parents and teachers or what is more bluntly called “brainwashing”. We have no right to exercise our faith on others, even if the other is an animal. Note that the superiority of a human being over an animal is also part of your personal faith, and there are many people in the world who do not share this belief. The animals I am talking about are intelligent, sensitive creatures with many qualities that are hidden from the eyes of those who view them as a product for food or medical experiments.
Allow me to also criticize some of your claims here, knowing the animal world better than you do - that's what I believe.
1. Those who love animals hate humans - nonsense. It's true that we have a hard time with people whose gluttony funds terrible suffering, but it doesn't reach the point of hatred except in particularly blatant cases. Most of my friends in animal activism are wonderful people - the fat and the scum of society. Regarding hatred of Judaism (not Jews), there is some truth in that - for example, I hate Judaism, but not only that - also Islam and any religion that has sacrifices and justifies eating animals. I hate Independence Day because of the barbecues and I hate the hypocrisy of the rabbis who are so strict about kosher and its rules and do not see that the entire animal products industry is not kosher because of the terrible cruelty of animals.
2. Animal testing for medical purposes. I lived with a partner who, by virtue of her profession, experimented on dogs, and my wife, in her biology studies, experimented on mice. Both indicate excessive cruelty and a high percentage of unnecessary experiments.
3. It is impossible to feed humanity with the desired proteins without using animal products. – Crazy nonsense. There are proteins in all legumes and nuts and in a very large variety of other vegetables. All of these are much cheaper than meat, healthier and more ethical.
4. The situation today in the animal industry is so terrible that those who finance it by consuming these products are violating the commandment of animal cruelty (this is according to you). Even with the explicit verse, "An ox or a she-goat or a goat, because it gives birth and remains under its mother for seven days," they pass and separate the calves from their mothers within half an hour of their birth (this also applies to religious kibbutzim).
To Rabbi Michael.
Unfortunately, you tend to philosophize logically, which may be mathematically correct but is poor in real content. You devote a lot of words to explaining that those who do not observe the Halacha do not have a reason to preserve Judaism, because the Halacha is Judaism. Okay – Let's assume I accept your words that the Halacha is Judaism – What are the values of the Halacha that are worthy of preservation that do not fall under the heading of universal values, but belong solely to the Judaism of the Halacha itself. And here the reader who remains in suspense until the end of all the statements about the logical fallacies gets upset because here comes the sentence “Although I usually don't know how to point out these goals and values, I believe that the Almighty who said this knows what he is talking about.” So let me update you. The Almighty did not say anything – Those who spoke in the name of the Almighty were ancient people like me and you who for some reason thought they were speaking in the name of some higher power and put it down in writing. This possibility is a thousand times more likely than the possibility that the imaginary creature you call the Almighty, who according to your theory created the entire universe and in which, according to current estimates, there are about ten to the power of 22 solar systems similar to ours (a number that is approximately equal to the number of grains of sand on all the beaches in the world) is chatting with tiny creatures on a single grain of sand. It is quite clear that this is an invention of the inhabitants of that grain A world that sees itself as the center of the world. And in your opinion (which is very questionable in my opinion) if God spoke so much, wouldn't it be appropriate for you to give an example of some values thanks to which people of flame can justify what they do.
And here is another sentence “When I wrote that eating pork is not morally wrong, I meant eating pork and not eating animals in general”. A pig is an animal and if eating animals in general is morally wrong, then eating pork is also morally wrong. This is the logic I learned. If I didn't understand what you wrote, it is likely that others don't understand what you mean either.
And here is another outrageous sentence “Although in my opinion it is because of the terrible suffering caused by the industrial process, and not because of the actual consumption of animal meat” Would you agree to be raised in ideal conditions and at some point in your life at a fairly young age to be slaughtered? I don't think so. Animals want to live just like you And it is a terrible thing in my opinion to exploit the power we have over them to kill them and eat their flesh. I don't know if you have ever been to a slaughterhouse - it is a shocking place. One of the greatest harms of religious perception is the classification - inanimate, vegetative, living, speaking. It seems to me that it is derived, among other things, from the descriptions in Genesis about the creation of man on a day separate from the rest of the animals. Not only man speaks, all animals speak, and the fact that you do not understand their language does not give you the right to kill them. Evolution shows us that man is one creature in a continuum of animals and not the crown of creation - "Alek". Unfortunately, the opposite is true - man is the most harmful and cruel creature. Regarding the comparison between Rabbi Kook and an anonymous Polish philosopher, this is again a logical argument devoid of real content. Rabbi Kook's teachings encompass large parts of religious Judaism. You chose us is not an invention of Rabbi Kook - see, for example, The text of the Havdalah “which distinguishes between the holy and the profane, between light and darkness, between Israel and the nations” Israel is holy – the nations are profane. Israel is light – the nations are darkness. With the same degree of justification, you can say, "Don't let me quote the Rambam because you don't agree with his opinion and he is also just an Uzbek philosopher, as is Rashi and the other so-called great men of Israel." What is the halakha you speak in your name if not the creation of thousands of more or less wise people? I'm sure you also don't believe that the disputes between Abaye and Rava were given to Moses from Sinai, and in general that a Jew of Moses' age went up the mountain, didn't eat or drink for forty days, and at the end still carried heavy stone tablets on his way down – give me a break.
Thanks for the update. At the last minute, you saved me from a mistake (until now, I thought that God had revealed Himself, and I have been living in this mistake all my life. Thank you very much).
Since it is clear that you are not here to discuss but to criticize (catharsis for anger is also important), and in this I recommend honesty about the nonsense you write (you are probably angry, and not necessarily stupid and illiterate as your words suggest), I will end with a beautiful interpretation of the words of the wicked son in the Passover Haggadah.
That son asks: “What is this work to you?!” (ending with an exclamation point, of course) and the answer is “If He had been there, He would not have been redeemed” in hidden language. To teach you that that son asked and left, did not wait for an answer. But I now thought that there is still more to make this difficult: why are they even answering him, even in hidden language, since there is no one here anymore? But to teach you that he is actually here, but he is not listening to the answer. He only came to criticize and not really listen.
Therefore, I will fulfill the instruction of Chazal ”Even you have blunted his teeth”, and tell you that evolution will already answer your questions. Whoever does not want Judaism to survive will disappear, he and his questions, and those who want to survive will remain with us. ”If he were there, he would not have been redeemed”. Good luck to all of us, and also to evolution.
A typical response from someone who has no answers. Attack is the best defense. Slinging insults – “You write nonsense, you come to slander, you are likened to the son of the wicked”. The truth is that I do not write nonsense but rather things of taste. Your response shows that they are hitting a sensitive spot. You are probably used to a different type of audience that comes from the religious sector. You probably do not have the tools to deal with someone who comes from another direction. And the sad truth is that when there are no answers to the matter, they simply shoot with all their might in all directions. I have no interest in Judaism disappearing – I have an interest in it limiting itself to dealing with itself and not acting against those who have no interest in it and do not share its views – like the people of Lehva and the youth of the hills and the politicians who fight against public transportation on Shabbat and those who force marriage and divorce according to Halacha on the entire Jewish people. I asked you about the values of Halacha Judaism – a simple question and there is no answer, just endless words. Nothing – I'm used to it. Be healthy.
To Yossi – Hello and Sahlan,
Just a small question: If you have no interest in preserving Judaism – why are you living in Palestine? Why don't you leave Palestine in the hands of its original inhabitants, who for some reason have an interest in preserving their national identity?
Best regards, Shams Razel Alpanjar Aljanjar Mawwi
The truth is that your words really seem like an outburst of anger, but from stupid considerations of desecration of the ’ and it's just annoying to see such a stupid lack of arguments that I decided to respond.
A. Please clarify what a logical argument is without content because in principle it can be said about such arguments A=B, B=C – C=A (transitivity), but you say this about the claim that Rabbi Kook's statement refers to ruling Judaism like Kant to ruling humanity (in your opinion). This is not just a touch, it's part of the evasive methods (even the right responds like this).
B. Your religious bubble exists with you too. You grew up in a secular place (according to the response below) and oh, you are secular, interesting.
But of course you will say that since you are a universal or something like that (empty cart, not as an insult, the prophet did not mean to insult, but that this is the reality, see the section of Torah here again)
C. Rabbi Michi did not say here that Rashi or Rabbi Kook were not racists, they were, but what does it matter to the average religious person that Rashi or Rabbi Kook or the Hatam Sofer or whoever hated Gentiles or thought that Africans were inferior, we do not act according to that.
D. If you think that there is no God, there is no basis for morality, including a prohibition or moral permit on killing animals for pleasure, since if there is no God, there is no source of authority commanding a, then even if a brings a lot of suffering, it does not mean that a should not be done, since suffering is some fact and you do not derive values from facts without the bridge principle “causing suffering is forbidden” But this has no justification in a world where there is no source of authority (that is, there is no conceptual justification for the prohibition of causing suffering without someone to command the aforementioned prohibition)
E. Animal cruelty is either from the Torah or the Rabbis, and if the animal has been subjected to suffering, it is not forbidden to eat.
These are selected points, there is much more nonsense in your words, certainly in response to the question.
I wonder why it's so hard to have a substantive discussion about worldviews without superlatives of dumb or nonsense. I may represent a way of thinking that you're not used to, but if you say "dumb", please be kind and point out exactly the claim that you think is dumb so that I can explain myself. I will try to be true to my method and answer your claims one by one so that you can also answer me not in general terms but in relation to each specific claim. So here it is...
A. "Please clarify what a logical claim is that lacks content" There is already an inaccuracy here. I wrote "poor in content" and not "poor in content". A math class is full of logical claims but it is poor in non-mathematical content, such as moral content or emotional content.
“But you say that about the claim that Rabbi Kook's statement relates to Judaism Shlita like Kant to humanity”
Inaccurate. When I said lack of content, I was not referring to Rabbi Kook's statements or to Kant, who was not mentioned at all in my words. I am not going to repeat my words – I am just asking for accuracy in the argument.
B. “Your religious bubble also exists with you, you grew up in a secular place”. Where do you get it from where I grew up and was raised – Nowhere in my words did I mention that I grew up and was raised as a soldier. The opposite is true. I grew up and was raised in a strict religious education, my father was a great rabbi in Torah and I studied at the Kfar Haro”a Yeshiva and for a short period also at the Kerem Yeshiva Yavneh”.
C. “But what does it matter to the average religious person that Rashi or Rav Kook or the Chatam Sofer or whoever hates Gentiles or thinks that Africans are inferior, we don't act according to that.”. Maybe you don't act according to that, but many religious people see Rav Kook's teachings as an ideal to act according to, and almost all religious people act according to the halacha, which, among other things, claims that the laws of pikuach nefesh on Shabbat apply only to Jews, that a gentile may not give birth on Shabbat, and that a loss may not be returned to a gentile, and many other pearls that have been softened a little just for the sake of peace. You could say, I don't relate to Rav Kook and don't think like him, and I don't relate to the Rambam and don't think like him, and I don't relate to Rashi and don't think like him, but then it's not clear what the source of the validity of the halacha you adhere to is. Generally, the Rambam is considered a halakhic source, and the Shulchan Arukh usually rules according to Maimonides.
D. “If you think there is no God, there is no basis for morality” In my opinion, this is a terrible sentence. The feeling of compassion and concern for what someone else is going through is a basic emotion in humans and is also revealed in animals. If you need God in order not to kill another person or animal or in order not to abuse someone else, you are a miserable and even dangerous person. If you need life-saving help, I am sure you will gladly accept it even from an atheist paramedic. I really hope that not all religious people think like you.
E. “Animal cruelty is either from the Torah or the Rabbis, and if the animal has been tortured, it is not forbidden to eat”. Even if this is true, when you eat an animal, the money with which you purchased the meat finances the cruelty of animals that are still alive.
Okay, I see that there is probably someone to discuss with
A. Okay
B. Sorry, it would have seemed that way from the response below, I am still right in the argument there.
C. Refer to the article by Rabbi Michi ”A Gentile Whom the Halacha Did Not Recognize” where he provides explanations why it does not apply in our situation. The Halacha that says not to save when a Gentile does not commit a sin is the Halacha that says to save when he lives in a resident
D. Unfortunately, emotion is a morally neutral fact: What does it mean that someone suffers? Nothing, if there is no one who created us and wants us not to cause suffering, there is no need to prevent suffering. It seems as if your justification is: you need to prevent suffering from an animal because when it suffers, it suffers and it is unpleasant for it, if you have a good justification, please bring it.
E. This still does not mean that the meat is not kosher, at most it is financing a crime.
In fact, your views are very similar to those of Rabbi Michi, except for faith.
A. Admits and leaves Yeruham
B. The issue of the full cart and the empty cart is a broad issue in itself. If you think the full cart is the cart of religious Judaism and the empty cart is the secular cart – I really disagree with you, but this is a topic for a long discussion and has no place in a short response.
C. Who has a higher authority than Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef. He was asked at the time by a resident of Sderot whose disabled father is being cared for by a foreign worker what to do if a missile falls on Shabbat and injures the foreign worker who is caring for his father. His meandering in his answer is so embarrassing even if in the end he agreed mainly for reasons of peace that it is permissible to desecrate Shabbat for him and save him, but to do so with a change. I have not read Rabbi Michi's words, but I have read many halachic rulings from the Rambam and Tzvon on the subject of treatment of the Gentile – it is embarrassing to say the least. In my opinion, every person should be saved regardless of their religion or whether you think they are practicing idolatry (what is that anyway?), first save them and then do the math.
D. “What does it mean that someone suffers? Nothing”. It means a lot to me – It seems to me that you are emotionally disabled. According to what you write, if it weren't written, you wouldn't see any blame in murder either. That's an empty and empty cart, my dear. Ours is much fuller.
E. When the criminal Ze'ev Rosenstein wants to remove someone from his path, he hires a hired killer and never gets his hands dirty. Unfortunately for him, the court considered financing the murder to be an offense of the same gravity as the murder itself.
This is the approach in our cart. Maybe in your cart, financing murder or financing abuse is not considered as committing the abuse itself, so again, in my opinion, your cart is empty on this issue and our cart is full.
F. My addition: It seems to me that you are a classic example of the damage that religion does to the human soul. I hope there are not many like you. This is my view – you don't have to answer.
C. Again, they are indeed racists
D. Unfortunately or not, I am not emotionally disabled but emotion cannot theoretically justify anything, and if so, people also have emotions that determine that Jesus the Christian is the Messiah, that the Rebbe is the Messiah or God, do you believe in all of these?
E. Without him the murder would not have been committed but even if all Israel were vegetarians it would not bother the meat industry.
F. Amen and amen
Dear respondent. The answer is very simple - I was born here and I have a non-religious Israeli identity. My Israeli identity is expressed in love for the country and its landscapes, for its hidden paths that I have plowed with my feet and my bike, for its food, for its weather, for my Israeli friends on both the Jewish and Palestinian sides. Full disclosure - My best friend is a Muslim believer and I love him with all my heart because of his character and because of the special connection we have. I love people in general and I do not attribute significance to a person's nationality, religion, or gender, but only to their character as a person. For my part, there should be one state here - a state of all its citizens, in which Muslim Palestinians, religious Jews, and also atheist Palestinians (is there such a thing?) and atheist Jews like me will live in peace. I am also ready for two states for two peoples and any other solution that will bring peace to both peoples. In my opinion, religion is an obstacle to peace from both the Jewish and Palestinian sides because it causes radicalization on both sides. I was born here, this is my homeland and there is no reason for me to move to another country. I also recognize the connection to this land of the Palestinians who were born here and this is their homeland just as it is my homeland. Any solution is acceptable to me. I want to live with good, enlightened people, and free from the shackles of prejudice. We all have the right to live in this country because we were born in it and not because some god (imaginary in my opinion) promised it to us. I would love to hear your opinion.
To Yossi – Ahlan and Sahlan,
I have no problem with Jews who were here before 1917 who are considered Palestinians according to our treaty, and therefore, for example, I accept without any problems the family of Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose ancestors lived in the country until 1917, when they moved to America with the intention of returning. They are no less Palestinian than Yasser Arafat, who was born in Egypt to a father who emigrated from the country. A Palestinian remains a Palestinian regardless of religion or worldview.
However, Jews who emigrated later, under the auspices of the British colonialist regime that attracted them with the promise of a ’Jewish national home” – their emigration seriously damaged the national rights of the Palestinians. All the more so since the establishment of the State of Israel led to the mass flight of Palestinians, and the immigration and settlement of millions of Jews, who in many cases settled on abandoned Arab property. Is it morally justified for immigrants from foreign countries to take the place of the country's residents for generations?
Do anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, which have already passed from the enlightened world, justify the seizure of Palestine by immigrants? I believe that today it is possible to find much better places for the descendants of Jewish immigrants than ravaged Palestine, developed places where they will find an atheist and enlightened society like themselves and live there in peace and tranquility (at least until the next outbreak 🙂
Your words that religion intensifies the enmity between Jews and Arabs – are not accurate. One of the biggest problems we have with Jews, and especially with the secular ones among them, is – They spread their secular views and negatively influence Muslims in the direction of abandoning and disrespecting Islamic tradition.
I have less of a problem with my settler neighbors, both because the lands they were allowed to settle on were thoroughly inspected by the legal authorities, which are deserted ‘state lands’, and if there was even a hint of doubt that they were privately cultivated lands of Arabs – they were not allowed to settle.
Even in terms of the curative effect on Muslims – the settlers are less problematic, since their women cover their heads and dress modestly like our women, but over the years the number of Datlis has also increased there and the fear of a curative effect is growing, but the situation is still much better than what happens in secular cities and towns.
Even in terms of ‘animal suffering’ Jewish settlement caused great suffering to animals. Their crowded settlements and cities robbed the living space of wild animals, in a place where kangaroos and hedgehogs used to nest freely and lions, tigers, jackals and cheetahs roamed freely – now the people living there do not allow the wild animals to live freely.
For all the reasons I mentioned, it seems better to move the Jewish immigrants from here, then the farmers and Bedouins will live in peace and harmony with the animals of the field and come to Palestine as a savior and a European captive in Jacob 🙂
With greetings, Shams Razel Alpanjar Al-Najmawi, Qubat al-Najma
Dear Shams Rozal.
Your words have a strong scent of Jewish apologetics and even Jewish religious settlerism. Before I answer you, I would like you to do one of two things. Either swear here on the website pages that you are truly a Muslim and attach a photo of your ID card or identify yourself with your real name and identity. In both cases, I would be happy to answer you. Unfortunately, you sound more like a resident of Kochav Hashachar than a resident of Qubat a Najma, which is a mountain and not a settlement.
Dear HUXH,
It's not hard to recognize Shtzel's style as a strictly Jewish one. What made you feel so strongly?
To Yossi (who quickly became a HUXE Sayonara,
I am actually a Buddhist, since my late father came from Budapest, I went through a traditional Islam where I partially accepted the commandments of Islam. For example, I believe in one God but believe that Moses is his messenger. Instead of making the Hajj to Mecca, I try to visit the Al-Buraq Square near Al-Aqsa.
Five prayers a day is a bit difficult for me, so I settle for three. On Shabbat and Yom Kippur I get four prayers. Only on Yom Kippur do I perform five prayers. And besides a quart of wine in Kiddush And the difference is, I refrain from drinking wine. It seems that Muhammad might be pleased with me 🙂
Your diversion of the discussion to the personal side is an evasion of the simple question that I put to Shams Razel: There is no other people in the world who claims a historical right to a land after two thousand years. What a scandal it would be if the descendants of the Franks, Huns and Teutons were to re-claim their historical right to the steppes of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, from which they migrated more than a thousand years ago.
The claim of our historical right to the Land of Israel has a place only on the part of the belief in the eternal Book of Books. (As Ben-Gurion said in the ’Declaration of Independence’) where God designated this land for the people of Israel and promised them that they would return to it. Without this ‘Kushan’, we are nothing but descendants of colonial immigrants who were brought to the land against the will of the ’natives’. This is the poignant question, which you have been honored to answer!
Best regards, Shayoshi Luingara, a Tokyo-based talkbacker
‘Alang’Mawi’ is the Arabic translation of ’Ish HaKokhaf’. All that remains for you to discover is the Hebrew translation of ’Shams Razel’ 🙂
And I will also reiterate the ecological argument against the mass immigration of Jews to Palestine. Until World War I, the land was relatively sparsely populated, so that there was a large living space left for wildlife. It has calmed down that the land has been flooded with millions of immigrants who maintain a modern lifestyle, with intensive agriculture, high levels of pesticides, and industry, high levels of air pollution - wildlife is being squeezed out.
And what dense settlement, agriculture and industry do not do - they are supplemented by the extensive firing ranges of the Zionist army, which are required to constantly protect the invaders from the relentless resistance of the original inhabitants of the land. Will they leave us no place to live except in nature reserves?
With greetings, Yona Tan Bar-Dels
The problem of harming the living space of wildlife also involves vegetarianism, which requires the expansion of agricultural cultivation areas. Every additional dunam of agricultural land is one dunam less living space for river animals.
In the last line
… for the living space of wildlife.
Going vegan can be very beneficial for wildlife. You should know that seventy percent of the world's agricultural land is designated for feeding animals in the food industry, and it has been said that "there are many hungry people in the world, but there is no hungry cow". Eliminating the animal food industry will significantly reduce the amount of land required for agricultural cultivation and free up space for wildlife. The animal food industry is also one of the biggest contributors to global warming, to huge fires that kill thousands of small and large wild animals, to the pollution of water sources, and to the acceleration of the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria (80% of the antibiotics produced in the world are intended for industrial animals to fight infections caused by them in the polluted environment in which they live). Animals emit methane gas, which is 30 times more effective than CO2 as a greenhouse gas. When weighed according to this ratio, the animal industry emits more greenhouse gases than all the motorized vehicles in the world, at sea, on land, and in the air. All this without mentioning the moral side of freeing animals from human oppression and the health side of consuming only plant-based foods.
Animals emit methane gas, so you want their numbers to decrease, and therefore, among other things, you want them to stop raising animals for food and make room for wildlife?
And to Yossi he said –
And after you explained to us that domestic animals and poultry are the ones causing an ecological disaster – agricultural land grabbing and methane gas emissions – then we should stop keeping them, what should we do with them? Should we destroy them all at once or abandon them to die of hunger or be eaten
Or maybe we can rehabilitate them and raise them as pets, but then we will have to continue raising them for many years, continuing to raise them as pets will also require us to feed them, and if so, we are back to all the environmental hazards – agricultural land grabbing and methane gas.
Will our rabbi teach us what to do?
With blessings, Gadiel Shaafsal Ziegler-Hahn
And a side question: If the need for cattle and chickens is eliminated – how will your Bedouin friends make a living?
Paragraph 2, line 2
… Continue to raise them as pets…
However, according to the Wikipedia entry ‘Greenhouse gases’, it appears that agriculture's share of greenhouse gases does not exceed 13% of greenhouse gases. The high percentages of greenhouse gases come from energy production – 34%, transportation – 16%, industry – 22%, buildings – 8%. Waste – 3%
Therefore, dear homosapiens! Take responsibility and reduce greenhouse gas emissions from power plants, industrial plants and vehicles, before you come with claims to agriculture and grazing.
It is possible that some of the increase in carbon dioxide concentration since the industrial revolution – It stems from the drastic reduction in green agricultural areas, which absorbed the carbon dioxide emitted by humans and animals, and in return increased the amount of oxygen in the air.
With greetings, Khiya Chlorophilip Shepslovsky
However, the researchers at the University of Hohenheim are well remembered, who developed pills and a diet that reduce methane emissions during the digestion process of animals.
On Shabbat, a donkey and a manger will have a year of less gasoline
The way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions is to reduce the number of vehicles that consume a lot of fuel and emit toxic smoke. For intercity travel, there may be no escape from a motorized vehicle, but within the city there is nothing better than a horse or donkey. Both an ‘ecological means of transportation’ and a good friend to man.
So Lipa the coachman says, that a little less is a little more. You need to stretch the rope, and take it back 🙂
With greetings, Peivish Lipa Sosnowitzki-Dehari
And the little methane that the animals emit – can be collected and turned into green fuel. See Dr. Dror Bar-Nir's article, ‘methane – Greenhouse gas, a deadly gas and a green energy source, (Galileo, 107, July 2004).
Dear Al Najmawi. I have lived among the Bedouins in Sinai for many years and speak Arabic at a fairly basic level. It seems to me that you do not mean ”Shams Razel” but Razel Alfajar’r (without the ”n” you added there). Regarding the change of my name, this is a glitch that results from the keyboard being in English mode. Then when you type Yossi, huxh comes out. There is no hidden intention here, but simply a keyboard error.
I would be happy to address your comments in detail.
Let's start with the history of Jewish settlement from 1870 with the founding of Mikveh Israel until the War of Independence.
As far as I know, all the lands of the first colonies, of the Jezreel Valley, of the Beit Shean Valley, and in the north of Tel Hai and Kfar Giladi and more – They were bought with money from the landowners, who were usually Turkish effendis and not Palestinian Arabs. In some cases, the Arabs were the tenants of these lands and sometimes the landowner did not even inform them that the land had been sold. In other cases, the lands were used by nomadic shepherds who moved throughout the country in search of pasture but did not own the land. In the Negev, there were nomadic Bedouins and there were Bedouins in permanent settlements. As far as I know, the settlement of the western Negev before the War of Independence - Tze'il, Revivim, Gvulot, Mashaby Sde - did not involve any land expropriation. It is quite clear and upsetting to hear that the land you have been living on for many years was sold to some Muscovite who had just arrived from Europe and did not even know how to milk a goat. This is more or less what happened to most of these landowners whose livelihoods were taken from them at once, and under pressure they resorted to theft and vandalism of the young Jewish farms that had been established on these lands, thereby accelerating the establishment of the Hashomer organization. One can understand both sides, but legal justice was with the Jewish settlers. This was the situation until 1947 with the declaration of partition, when in the background long before that there were riots in the late 1920s, as well as in the years 1936-1939, and of course the massacre in Hebron. In all of these events, there were attacks on Jews by Arabs, and it was they who accelerated the establishment of the Haganah organization and its military wing, the Palmach (and let's not forget the Hashomer organization, which was established much earlier). In 1947, the UN declared the division of the land into a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. While Jews rejoiced and celebrated the partition plan and danced in the streets all night, the Arab countries did not accept the plan, and with the evacuation of the country from the British and the declaration of the State of Israel a few months later, they launched a comprehensive attack on the young country from all directions. It is worth noting that the initiative for the attack was taken by the Arab countries, not by the Palestinians, the residents of the country. They rejoiced and hoped that all the lands they considered theirs would be conquered by the Arab countries and returned to them by force. This did not happen, and the Jewish settlement in a heroic war won this war, and most of the Palestinians fled and some were expelled. Our young army was also not free from war crimes, the most famous of which were in Deir Yassin and Tantura.
Every return of the people of Israel to their land before the War of Independence was to places that were established without dispossessing Arabs of land they owned, as far as I know. After the War of Independence, there was settlement even in places that were evacuated or evacuated against their will or out of fear that the Jews would kill them. But it must be remembered that it was the Jews who agreed to the partition plan and it was the Arabs who attacked unilaterally, and therefore the Jewish settlement in the villages that were evacuated from their settlements seems to me tragic for the Palestinians but historically justified.
In conclusion: The people of Israel returned to their land after 2000 years, but did so in a legal manner accepted by the nations of the world and not by forceful dispossession as the Americans did to the Indians and the Australians to the Aborigines and the Chinese to the Tibetans and the Japanese to the Chinese and Koreans and the Germans to all European countries and as the Russians are trying to do today to the Ukrainians. The pioneers (mostly secular) did so with indescribable heroism in difficult conditions, with enormous perseverance and in the face of deadly diseases.
Even in the Six-Day War, we did not start the war, but we did take control of lands that are not ours and have left them in a temporary state of occupied territory for 55 years in a way that allows us to apply different laws to settlers and different laws to Palestinians, which is de facto apartheid, even if in one narrow way or another it is legal.
Our historical right to the Land of Israel from the point of view of faith is extremely problematic. Understand that we need to convince the nations of the world, not ourselves. First, faith itself is problematic. Intensive scientific research in both the field of biblical research and archaeological research does not support the Jewish faith. One attack is from how and by whom the Bible was written, and the second is from archaeology, which has great difficulty finding reference to the founding event of the Exodus from Egypt, neither in the findings at Sinai nor in the writings of the Egyptians from the aforementioned period. It is even more difficult to find reference to the existence of the patriarchs and the existence of a divine promise to give us the land. Although the Western world mostly believes in the Bible, in order to achieve broad consensus we must also convince the communist world, which is mostly atheist, and the Japanese and Asian Indians who do not believe in the Bible, and the Muslim world, which will always support the Palestinians.
Beyond the fact that the belief itself is problematic - we have a serious problem legally proving that we are indeed descendants of those Jews who lived in the land two thousand years ago. Who knows what blood was mixed here, after all, the Jews lived among the Gentiles for so long. This is one of the reasons for the legal term of statute of limitations - go prove it!
So there you have it. You see that I am not afraid to respond and am not evasive. I think, however, that it is right that you identify yourself by your real name and not hide behind a Palestinian Arab who writes "Meir Kahane, may the late"
Tonight I'm going down to Sinai to my Bedouin friends, and there will probably be no comments from me here in the coming week unless the network there operates properly.
To Yossi – Hello,
I was happy to hear that the settlement of the descendants of the colonialists among the Jews in Palestine is legal. It is to be assumed that international law will continue to recognize its legality, so that Europe and America will not be forced to absorb several more millions of Jews 🙂
Since we have concluded that the ’law’ is the standard norm – I can also rely on international law that permits the eating and use of animals. Let the humble eat and be satisfied…
With greetings, Anaui Mch Kuhbdr
‘Alfenger’r’ is an adaptation of ’Lewinger’ since there is no V in the Hebrew, on ‘Alfenger’ar’ in the sense of ‘dawn’ I didn't think so. The gematria will work out according to this too (without the ‘HaLevi’ and with the letters and the kollel. And a question regarding your doubts about the Jewish faith: Do you also tell your Bedouin friends that their faith is questionable and unfounded in your eyes?
In the last line
… because in Arabic there is no…
Mr. Levinger – Are you a relative of Rabbi Levinger of Kiryat Arba?
To our point – Today's Israel within the borders of the Green Line does not face criticism from the nations of the world, and it should be remembered that it is also home to almost two million Palestinian Arabs and is not subject to challenge by any country that I know of. On the other hand, the Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria and, more than that, the discrimination between Jewish settlers and Palestinians is problematic in the eyes of most countries in the world, including those that seek our well-being in Europe and America. The problem is the discrimination and forceful behavior of the military and civilian government more than the settlement itself. In practice, there is an apartheid state there. Ehud Barak once said that if they had treated him the way they treat Palestinians in the West Bank, he too would have become a terrorist. I have a Facebook friend who is doing a doctorate in anthropology and her topic is the shepherds in the Jordan Valley. She literally lives with them and sends films and recordings from the field that are hard to believe. The behavior of the residents of the outposts (the youth of the hills in Bela) and of the IDF soldiers is terrible. Such behavior breeds terror, which breeds a response that breeds more terror. There is a wise saying: “May God be just, may He be wise.” If the Jewish community in Judea and Samaria does not condemn these acts and does not restrain the youth of the hills and the illegal outposts (as of today, there are 151 illegal outposts in Judea and Samaria), we will continue to live by the sword until the end of our days. We secularists will ultimately not agree to fight and put out the fire lit by messianists in Judea and Samaria every time. Try to calm the situation, respect your Arab neighbors, talk to them, help them when needed. This is how you build peace, not by competing to see who has the biggest. There are also a lot of outposts around Kochav Hashahar. The entire road to the top passes through cultivated Palestinian territory. The Balad outpost is populated by hilltop youth. I assume that most of the outposts are illegal. The very fact that illegal outposts are not being taken down shows deliberate discrimination.
This is – I said my piece. Ancestral rights don't work here. Moderation and love and seeing the other side as human beings who want a livelihood and peace, respecting the other side, mutual aid, joint discussion groups on how to make the neighborhood better and beneficial to all parties, that's how you start to build peace. “Justice with us” is pure poison.
As for my Bedouin friends, my effort is more focused on making them vegan than on converting them. I have already managed to stop them from slaughtering a goat on Eid al-Adha and I consider that a great achievement. I teach them about animals and show them amazing films about friendship, motherhood, intelligence, compassion and mutual help, creativity and originality - all this in animals like chickens, goats, donkeys, crows, bears, elephants, cows and more and more. Over time, I have collected many such films - some of which are moving to tears.
It is permissible to argue
about taste and smell
about territories and rights
and about where it is worth living
about Maccabi or Clalit
and about economic reform
about hurting feelings
about the news anchor
about religions, beliefs
and about approaches or styles
about varieties of avocado
and about Messi or Ronaldo
about leaven in a hospital
about assassinations and assassinations
about masks and vaccinations
about singers, about artists
Yes, there are many topics
that can be discussed over and over
but there seems to me to be
a pretty total agreement
that one does not harm the helpless
the innocent, the innocent
because between us, it is just evil
without a little and without a lot
so why the fuck
without saying and doing
you are eating
my
friends
Think about it!
Mr. Levinger – I asked you as a religious person, below is a quote from the Rambam”Hilkot Memariam, Chapter 3, Halacha 2: “Since it has been made known that he is a heretic in the Oral Torah, they lower him and do not elevate him, and he is like all the other Epicureans and those who say there is no Torah from heaven, and the moralists and the heretics, all of whom are not in Israel, and there is no need for witnesses, warning, or judges, but whoever kills one of them has performed a great mitzvah and removed the obstacle”. Do I need to hire a bodyguard?
On the 7th of Av, 5772
To Yusi, greetings,
The Maimonides himself excludes from the treatment of infidels the "sons of the Karaites" who were raised from childhood to disbelieve in the Oral Torah and are therefore in a state of "accidentalism approaching rape", and hence there is a broad consensus among the poskim of our generation that even secular people in our generation should be treated with respect and patience, and one should strive to bring them closer with love and kindness, through personal example and enlightening explanation.
Also regarding those who grew up in a religious education and "come out with a question" This rule is applied, since for our generation the words of Chazal are all the more beautiful. I wonder if there is anyone in this generation who knows how to prove it, for heretical claims boasting of scientific rigor are flooding us from all over the channels of literature and the media, and those who do not study and clarify the questions from the deep and complex path of the Torah are easily mistaken.
Dr. Aharon Barrett's book, Our Generation Facing the Questions of Eternity, is dedicated to dealing with many of the questions about faith following the discoveries and hypotheses of modern science. Dr. Barrett was the CEO of Bank Leumi in the early years of the state, and due to illness he took a sabbatical year during which he wrote his book.
Dr. Aharon Barrett was a product of the Frankfurt School of ‘Torah with a Path to the Land’ founded by Rabbi Shimshon Raphael Hirsch, Rabbi Hildesheimer and Rabbi Hoffman, who saw the combination of observance of mitzvot and faith with integration into modern scientific and cultural life as a matter of course. His father, Dr. Yaakov Barrett, was also a renowned orientalist, and he was a jurist and economist.
Best regards, Eliam Fishel and Wrackheimer
To Eliam Barchot.
I am interested in discussing a more general question, which is whether a person is permitted to harm someone else in any way because their faith justifies it.
If we look at the ”universal” morality, that is, the one that most people can agree with regardless of their faith, the answer is no. If I can harm someone because of some commandment of my faith, I must also accept the possibility that someone else will harm me because of their faith, whether it is the hand that explodes on a bus or an ISIS member who buries people alive because their faith is not Islamic. Therefore, it is common to think that a person's faith ends at the tip of their nose - it is their private matter and should not be applied to others.
Neither Judaism nor Islam think so, and Christianity in the Middle Ages executed Giordano Bruno, among other things, because of his support for Copernicus' theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not vice versa, and his refusal to retract his statement.
When I read Maimonides in Halachos Memariam, Chapter 3, Halachah 2, which I mentioned above, and the words of the author of the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh De'ah 198, Section 2): "And the heretics and those who disbelieved in the Torah and prophecy from Israel used to kill in the Land of Israel. If he had the strength to kill with a sword in public, they killed him. If not, they came to him with plots until he had killed him." And even the clear Mishnah from about 100 years ago (clear Mishnah, Section 9, Subsection 9): “A Jew who commits offenses of appetite, as long as he does not disbelieve in the Torah, it seems that the Sabbath is desecrated for him, but if he is angry, it is forbidden to save him even on a Sabbath.”
There is a clear opinion here that it is permissible to harm or refrain from saving (which is also harm) people because their faith is different or they lack a specific faith.
There are many laws that concern smaller harms, such as not returning a lost item to a Gentile. That’s all I have to say.
My question, formulated precisely: Is it permissible to harm someone because I believe that they acted contrary to my faith, even if their faith is different or they lack faith without harming anyone else. I would appreciate a direct answer of yes or no without too long ado. Thank you and have a good day, Yossi.
I know it's been a long time, but I think it's worth mentioning another reason why Lehva is considered a racist organization. Beyond its beliefs, there are rumors of all kinds of riots, or attacks on Arabs or people who employ Arabs by teenagers. There are no similar rumors about other anti-assimilation organizations like Yad La'Ahim. This makes some people think that this organization might be motivated by simply persecuting the adventurism of teenagers at best, and primitive hatred at worst (racism can sometimes be on a philosophical level, and sometimes on a mental level as well).