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What Is Modern Orthodoxy: The Gray Area (Column 476)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

In the previous column we saw the difference between two kinds of conservatism: a literalist conservatism that advocates observing the dictates of tradition as they are, and a midrashic conservatism that advocates observing them in line with interpretation suited to contemporary circumstances. We saw that in practice the difference is one of ethos more than essence, since in practice all Jewish Orthodoxy is midrashically conservative—albeit in varying degrees. In this column I will complete the discussion by pointing to the gray area in which the differences blur between the midrashic and the literalist conservative, and between the midrashic conservative and the reformer or heretic. The first blurring appears via a fascinating phenomenon of a “literalist midrash,” in which even a literalist conservative must resort to midrash to anchor his interpretation. This blurs the line between the midrashic and the literalist conservative. I will then discuss responses to changes in values rather than in factual circumstances, where the boundary between the midrashic conservative and the reformer or heretic becomes blurred. Along the way I will rely on several claims about the development of halakhah and will not be able to go into each one in detail. I will suffice here with a fairly schematic outline of the different arguments with a few sources and examples.

Midrashim Based on Changes in Scientific Knowledge

There are conservative midrashim that rely on new scientific knowledge. Today we know things our Sages in the Talmud did not know, and therefore comes the suggestion to change the relevant laws that were derived from those assumptions. For example, killing lice on Shabbat. The Talmud permitted it, based on a scientific assumption now accepted as incorrect (that lice do not reproduce). Or the permission to desecrate Shabbat for “shuryenei de’eina” (see Avodah Zarah 28b). According to Rashi there, the permission rests on the view that an injury to the eye poses a risk to life, which in my estimation does not seem correct in light of contemporary medical knowledge. The same goes for terefot (fatal defects) in humans and animals, and many other examples.

I will preface by saying that in such issues the midrashic conservative stands on firmer ground. He need not propose a conservative midrash, since the Talmud itself states the rationale for the halakhah. They link the laws of terefot to the fact that a tereifah does not live beyond twelve months, and today we know that in at least some cases this is not true. The conclusion of the midrashic conservative is that we should change the laws of terefot. But here it is not done in light of a change in circumstances, but because of a change in our knowledge about them. Today it is known that these were the circumstances even in the time of the Sages; they just did not know it. In such a case the midrash is much stronger, for there is no change to the law but a kind of correction of error. Ab initio the Sages would not have ruled as they did had they known the facts accurately. To my understanding, this requires no special authority, since it is not considered a halakhic change but a correction of a mistake.

Incidentally, note that in the case of lice the midrashic change is a stringency, contrary to the popular impression that midrashic conservatives always seek leniencies (see the question in the talkbacks to the previous column and my reply there).

“Literalist Midrash”

Behold, the Chazon Ish, in addressing these questions, proposed a far-reaching novelty (Nashim 27:3; Yoreh De’ah 5:3; see a survey here, especially the opening citation from the Chazon Ish). The Gemara in Avodah Zarah 9a divides human history (which according to tradition is meant to last six thousand years) into three parts: two thousand years of chaos, two thousand years of Torah, and two thousand years of Messiah. The Chazon Ish’s claim is that the relevant scientific reality is that which prevailed in the two thousand years of Torah—that is, roughly the Talmudic period. Therefore, even if today we have improved scientific knowledge—and without resorting to the ridiculous apologetics that the Sages were right and science is wrong—the Chazon Ish argues that the decisive facts for halakhah are the (mistaken) facts in which they then believed.

This is an excellent example of a midrash by a literalist conservative. He tries to argue that halakhah should not change, not only in light of changing circumstances, but even in light of changes and expansions in our knowledge about them (which, as I explained, are even easier and more warranted to change). In this sense we are dealing with an ultra-literalist conservatism. Yet to that end he needs a very speculative midrash, which takes an unclear aggadah from the Talmud and applies it in a context unconnected to it in any way. This is, of course, sheer invention, and the only reason anyone is prepared to treat it seriously is the result: if accepted, it allows us to preserve halakhah literally even when it is clearly based on error. In such a case even the most fundamentalist literalist conservative knows he is at a disadvantage. The Chazon Ish himself evidently felt that in this case he could not merely assert a conservative claim against midrashic conservatives, and indeed he resorted to his bizarre midrash about the two thousand years of Torah. In other words, he understood that the burden of proof lay upon him, and he tried (unsuccessfully) to carry it by means of a midrash. That midrash is, of course, utterly untenable, but literalist conservatism in its distress resorts even to untenable arguments (in my opinion its arguments are untenable even in the ordinary cases, as I explained in the previous column).

A similar “literalist midrash” seems to appear in the well-known words of the Vilna Gaon (the Gra) about rabbinic enactments. He claims that even when a clear and known reason is given for a given enactment, there are further hidden reasons the Sages did not reveal, and therefore one cannot rely on the known reason to change the law. In a certain sense, this too is a literalist midrash. He speaks of a case where the reason is clear (and perhaps even stated explicitly in the enactment, like “lest he tilt”). The assumption that there are further hidden reasons is a conservative claim that can be called a literalist midrash—it removes the words from their plain sense and invents a theory to support a literalist conservative stance. Note that in at least some sense this midrash exists in every claim of literalist conservatism (since they always lean on hidden reasons; the novelty here is that they do so even when there is a known reason).

The phenomenon of literalist midrashim sharpens my claim from the previous column: every approach to halakhah rests on interpretation. There I argued against the popular illusion that the midrashic conservative needs interpretive midrash, whereas the literalist conservative simply follows halakhah with no need for midrash or interpretation at all. From this literalists infer that the burden of proof is on the midrashists, for there is a presumption in favor of the literalists. But as we saw here, literalist conservatism also relies on interpretation, and in such cases it is speculative—in fact downright outlandish. The conclusion is that we are dealing with two interpretations standing opposite each other, and we must decide in favor of whichever seems more reasonable. Therefore, as I explained, rules of presumption are irrelevant to this discussion.

The phenomenon of the literalist midrash indicates that the distinction between midrashic and literalist conservatives is not sharp, since both sides rely on interpretive assumptions about the dictates and the tradition. The illusion that the literalist conservative simply adheres to halakhah as it is and requires no interpretation is incorrect. We now turn to the blurring between midrashic conservatism and reform, via a discussion of proposals to change halakhah in light of a change in values (and not facts).

Change in Circumstances vs. Change in Values

In the previous column I addressed the proper halakhic response to changes in factual circumstances (i.e., in reality). Yet in many cases, over time, values also change (see the question raised here), and sometimes such change is the basis or the result of a change in circumstances. For example, the factual change regarding the nature of women is accompanied by a value change. Women today are closer to men in several respects, and in parallel gender equality has become a core value. Can conservatism live with changes in halakhah on a value basis (not dependent on factual change)?

Seemingly not. In the previous column I explained that facts are not Torah, and therefore changing facts and the application of halakhah to them does not contradict the principle of the Torah’s eternity. What halakhah includes are the normative dictates, not the facts. And what about a halakhic response to changes in those [dictates]? A value change means adopting contemporary values—external by their nature (liberal or conservative)—at the expense of the Torah’s values. That is a frontal contradiction to the eternity of the Torah, no? What does commitment to the Torah mean if we also change our basic value assumptions in line with contemporary winds, or by any other influence?!

If we return to the example of the presumption “a person does not repay before time,” I dealt with what becomes of it in a situation where people do repay early. I explained that this is only a factual change, but the halakhic rule that a presumption can shift the burden of proof is Torah and indeed eternal. That cannot be abandoned. Consider what would happen if someone were to claim that today it is not accepted to rely on presumptions to shift the burden of proof, and therefore in halakhah too we should change this. Is that a legitimate conservative claim? What does it conserve? The midrashic conservative conserves the principle after a midrashic reinterpretation, even if not its application to the facts. But if one does not conserve the midrashic principle as well—the values and the dictates of halakhah—what remains here of conservatism? Likewise, a proposal to qualify women as witnesses by virtue of the principle of equality (not by virtue of the factual change they underwent, which would have led the Sages themselves to accept them today, as the midrashic conservative in the previous column claims) is a clear deviation from halakhah. Such a proposal preserves nothing. If such a conservatism is possible, then we have a different gray area—one in which it is hard to distinguish between the midrashic conservative and the reformer or heretic.

This is a very difficult question, and for many years I thought that indeed here the line is drawn. A value change preserves nothing, and therefore there can be no midrashic conservatism that argues for halakhic change in light of a value change. But on further reflection, the picture is not so simple, for two main reasons: 1) What we see as the “values” of halakhah are themselves a product of interpretation. 2) The Talmud’s authority is not with respect to values but with respect to halakhic dictates. I will now detail these two claims.

  1. On Values and Interpretation

The Torah does not say that women are disqualified from testimony, and therefore it is not correct to say that the Torah itself declares the principle of equality unimportant in its eyes. That is an interpretation (or derash) of the Sages. On what is it based? Especially since the derash from which women’s disqualification is learned is highly dubious.[1] It seems that this midrash is an asmakhta for a value judgment by the Sages, who deemed it proper to disqualify women from testimony. If so, we are dealing with the values of the Talmudic Sages, not necessarily those of the Torah. They employed values they themselves believed in (as a result of their environment? other factors? or simply from their own hearts? or perhaps from their understanding of Torah or of morality and from their reason? and perhaps all of the above?), and derived from them the disqualification of women. Why, then, should I not employ my own value-laden interpretation, based on my own value assumptions?! This is not a change to the Torah’s values but the application of the Torah’s dictates under new value circumstances—exactly as the Sages did.

One could even formulate here a principle that at first glance looks like a conservative midrash: the law then was stated when the principle of equality was not important in people’s eyes. Today equality is important (this is a value change that can in fact be viewed as a kind of factual change the society has undergone), and therefore women should now be qualified as witnesses. To sharpen the present discussion I will present this claim even under the (incorrect) assumption that factually women today are similar to what they were then.

Seemingly this is a conservative midrash similar to what we saw in the previous column. But upon a second look we see a problem. If I wish to see the proposer of such an idea as a conservative, I must examine what exactly he is conserving. He may claim that his approach does not contradict the Talmud because of the aforesaid midrash, but it seems that it indeed preserves nothing from the Talmud. In the bottom line, what of the Talmudic law disqualifying women’s testimony remains? Buddhist meditation does not necessarily contradict the Talmud, but we cannot say that practicing meditation is an option of halakhic conservatism.

There is, however, another subtle point. In the “standard” conservative midrash one performs midrash on the meta-halakhic plane. In this midrash one performs midrash on the meta-meta-halakhic plane. We can formulate it thus: we assume that even the disqualification of uneducated groups from testimony (the product of the factual, conservative midrash of the previous column) was not essential. The Sages disqualified women (or such groups) only because they were responsive to the value system of their time, which held that one lacking education did not merit equality (as with slavery). Women should remain on the sidelines, or at home. That is, one should not see the Talmudic law (women’s disqualification) as a value principle legitimizing discrimination but as a response to a then-prevailing worldview.[2] If so, in our day, when lack of equality is a moral flaw, then just as the Sages in their time responded to the value demand that prevailed then and incorporated it into halakhah, so too do we in ours. One could even say that in this way we truly continue the path of the Sages.

This already sounds better (at least logically), but there is still room to wonder: what, nonetheless, is preserved here from the original law? In what sense is this a conservative proposal? I truly agree that here nothing of that specific halakhah is preserved. But note that such a proposal merely says that the halakhah disqualifying women from testimony has no value basis in halakhah, and therefore specifically in such a law there is nothing to conserve. A conservative (midrashic) may certainly change it, even if in the bottom line nothing is preserved here. The claim is that in a sense this is a value lacuna that can be filled according to our understanding. Just as with the custom of avoiding legumes (kitniyot) on Passover (see column 2), there is no reason to preserve it if it does not reflect some value dimension (but is merely a “concern” that no longer exists; see there).

I fully understand the concern likely to arise in a reader of such a proposal. One could raise such proposals for any and every halakhah, thereby emptying halakhah entirely of values—and effectively emptying conservatism of content as well. We would erase the entire difference between conservative and innovator, perhaps apart from formulations and rationales (which, while not entirely meaningless, are hard to see as the exclusive criterion of conservatism), and along with that we would in fact erase commitment to halakhah. But it is important to distinguish between fears and arguments on the merits. The fundamental question is whether this argument is correct. Where it leads, and slippery-slope concerns, are secondary questions (they too are important, but I am not dealing with them here).

Moreover, the proposal here is to make such a change only with respect to certain halakhot, not the entire halakhic system. It concerns only those laws that (midrashic) interpretation sees as expressions of an ancient value spirit that has changed. In such halakhot there is room for change arguments of this kind. By contrast, the prohibition of pork, Shabbat observance, tithes, purity and impurity—these will be much harder to attribute to ancient values (though perhaps not impossible). Hence the fear that such an argument would be applied across halakhah is slippery-slope hysteria. I have already written that such hysteria is irrelevant to the initial discussion. Each argument must be weighed on its own merits; if it is correct, it should in principle be accepted. Only afterward may we consider whether there is room to behave not according to law (i.e., to be a “sinning conservative”) because of slippery-slope arguments. That is appropriate only in exceptional cases, which can be addressed through a rabbinic decree or ordinance.

It is important to understand that there is no impediment to claiming that certain halakhot were not created on a value basis, or that they are merely a response to the values then prevalent. It need not be that every single halakhah has an original value substrate from the Holy One, blessed be He, requiring preservation. Therefore every argument for change regarding any given law demands examination on its own.

In passing I will note that in general it is difficult to speak of the Torah’s “values.” In many cases (though not all), we are dealing with our interpretation of the Torah, and of course that is influenced by the values in which we ourselves believe. On the contrary, in situations where the Sages deemed it proper, they even changed the values reflected in the Torah and adapted them to their own. The fact that demands for change align with contemporary values is perceived by conservatives as a kind of accusation—capitulation to the spirit of a decadent West. But that is nonsense. The West adopted such values for certain reasons, and for those same reasons I too truly and sincerely believe in them. Now these are my values, and the question of where they come from and what influenced me is unimportant. No person is free from patterns of influence beyond his birth. If in the bottom line this is what morality requires in my view, then to me that is the will of God. And if it is the result of Western or other influence—so what? “Believe that there is wisdom among the nations,” and we learn character traits even from a cat and an ant. As noted, the “original” values championed by the literalist conservative were drawn from foreign sources. They fit the world of then, not our own. Was that world holier? In my view, in most cases it was less holy.

In places where a halakhah rests on the Torah’s values and we have no reasonable conservative midrash or contemporary values that lead us to think we should change, there the conservative (even midrashic) will not change the law. There are many such halakhot (see below). It is therefore incorrect that an approach proposing conservative midrash also on the basis of value changes is non-conservative. As noted, this has been done throughout history, from the Sages to our day. The difference is one of ethos, not practical outcome.

  1. The Talmud’s Authority Regarding Values

We have seen that the values underlying halakhah are usually the product of the Sages’ interpretation over the generations and are not anchored in the Torah itself. But this still does not fully solve the problem, since there is a widespread assumption that the Talmud has absolute authority in the halakhic domain. Without delving into the sources of this assumption, let me say that I agree with it. This raises the question whether that authority does not preclude conservative midrashim. I explained that conservative midrashim based on facts do not contradict the Talmud but point to the way to adhere to its dictates under different circumstances. But with a conservative midrash based on values the situation is different: here we deviate from Talmudic values, and as above the question is whether this is possible. I stress that my words here concern halakhot that have a value basis, not those for which the conservative midrash claims there is none (as we saw above regarding women’s testimony and the value of equality). My claim is that even in such cases, so long as the value does not appear in Scripture itself but is the product of interpretation, there is no obligation to adhere to it. My claim is that the Talmudic Sages have authority in their halakhic rulings, but not in their value assumptions.

At first glance this is naïve. After all, the halakhic rulings rest on value assumptions (at least in the cases I am addressing here). What does it mean to adhere to the rulings without adhering to their value basis? My claim is that if we had the assumption that the Talmudic Sages always got it right (hit upon the halakhic truth and the intent of the Almighty), then it would be reasonable to adhere to their value substrate too. But in several places I explained that adherence to the Talmud’s dictates does not stem from their rightness and truth but from its formal authority. The Sages of Israel across the generations accepted upon themselves the authority of the Talmud. If so, the obligation to adhere to the Talmud’s dictates is grounded in our acceptance of it, and therefore its contours are set by that acceptance. What falls within it falls within it; what does not, does not. My claim is that there is no agreement about the values reflected in the Talmud, only about its halakhic dictates, and therefore even when adhering to the laws we are not necessarily bound to the values reflected in them. Even if there are Talmudic halakhot that reflect socialism or capitalism, the laws bind us, but the value substrate does not necessarily do so.

This is the principle discussed in column 257; see there, and here I will be brief. One can bring an example from the Talmud’s own course. There are not a few situations in which Amoraim dispute Tannaim about the reasons for the laws while adhering to the dictates themselves. A well-known example is the statement of Shmuel (Yoma 85b), who derives a different source than all the Tannaitic sources for the rule that saving life overrides Shabbat. There are places where the halakhah is ruled like a given Sage but not for his reason. There are places where a Tannaitic view is split and adopted in one case but not another (meaning the decision is as that Tanna, but not his reasoning, since the reason applies in both cases). It is evident that adherence to authoritative sources concerns their halakhic bottom line, not necessarily their reasons and underlying assumptions. In column 257 I showed that the opinions of Sages relying on different rationales can be combined to create a majority in a court; from there I deduced that the essence of halakhah is the bottom-line decision, not the arguments and basis for that decision.

But in all the cases I mentioned, the later Sage disputes his predecessor in rationale and source, while accepting his practical dictate. If so, in our case, even if I have proven that we may dispute the values of the Talmudic Sages, we still cannot on that account change their practical dictate. Here the value change that has occurred enters the discussion. If the world now espouses different values (and I myself identify with them), this is not like a later Sage disputing his predecessor. The claim is that the earlier Sage too, were he alive today, would hold today’s values. The world advances in its attitudes to a variety of aspects—slavery, the treatment of women and of people of color, the morality of war, and so on. Is it not reasonable to claim that in our world it past nisht to deviate from these values? In the halakhic sources one can find quite a few claims of this sort. This is essentially the claim of past nisht discussed in columns 447448.

Examples

In the next column I hope to arrive at a definition of Modern Orthodoxy. But before that I thought it appropriate to bring several halakhic precedents based on arguments like those I have described here (the set of examples is entirely incidental, and I will touch on them briefly and concisely). In discussing them we will also see a mixture of additional mechanisms (such as past nisht and the deferral of halakhah), which can easily be confused with conservative midrash—but not rightly so. In addition we will see explicitly reformist arguments voiced by recognized poskim whose (substantive, not formal) authority is undisputed. These examples will help me sharpen the points I have described up to now. In particular, you will see that even by my lights the fence is not completely breached, and even in the topics I chose—where the motivation to change is clear and it would be proper to do so—there are quite a few arguments that do not fall under the conservative rubric and are therefore unacceptable. As I already noted, in neutral matters where there are no good reasons to change the halakhah, we will certainly not accept arguments of an unreasonable conservative midrash.

The Meiri on Gentiles

Let us begin with the Meiri on the treatment of Gentiles (see about him here). He argued that the various sanctions the Talmudic halakhah (biblical and rabbinic) imposes on Gentiles are null in his day. He bases his claim on a change in circumstances, asserting that Gentiles now behave better (“bounded by the norms of civilized nations”). Note that this is a factual change in circumstances, but the facts in question are the Gentiles’ relation to values (their moral conduct). From our perspective that is still a purely factual change, for the Gentiles around us are different, and therefore perhaps our treatment of them should change accordingly.

Now consider what would happen if someone were to argue that our treatment of Gentiles should change because they deserve equal treatment. This argument is not based on a change in factual circumstances but on the value of equality, which in our society today is very important. I am speaking of someone who says this because he truly believes in equality, not because he wishes to curry favor. Just as our environment believes in it, I too believe in it. I note that it does not matter at this point if depth-psychology researchers would say that deep down I do this to curry favor with someone. Even if that is true, anyone can have deep motives influencing his views. These remarks, of course, also apply to the literalist conservative (opium of the masses; convenience and intellectual laziness). I also note that in principle such an argument could be raised even without assuming a factual change in circumstances (that Gentiles have not truly changed morally). The hypothetical claim is that although they are morally inferior people as in the past, it is not reasonable in our culture to discriminate among people. Is this a legitimate claim? Can it be raised by a (midrashic) conservative?

On its face, this is essentially a past nisht claim. It is unacceptable that halakhah and the halakhic public behave in such an unseemly way and against foundational societal values. On a lower plane some will see this as a concern for hillul Hashem (desecration of God’s name), but on a higher plane the claim is that it is impossible for the Torah to command something so blatantly immoral, and therefore clearly that is not the Torah’s intent in our day at least.[4] For my part, because I separate halakhah and morality, I do not agree with such claims—unless there is a plausible interpretive possibility to incorporate them into halakhah independent of moral considerations. Moral considerations can serve as a tool for deciding among interpretive options in halakhah, not as an interpretive consideration in and of themselves. Therefore, in my view, such a claim regarding treatment of Gentiles is not acceptable within halakhah. It is important to understand that the Meiri (and I, humbly) do not make that claim. Our claim is a conservative midrash based on a change in circumstances, not on a value basis. I only add that one can indeed claim that there is a moral value that conflicts with halakhic values, and thus a conflict is created. At the start of my book Walking Among Those Who Stand I argued that in such conflicts halakhah does not necessarily prevail. That is not a halakhic claim, but of course it has practical consequences.

In passing I will recall that Rabbi Unterman advanced a past nisht claim regarding saving a Gentile’s life on Shabbat, explaining that the principle of darkei shalom (ways of peace) is not merely a fear of Gentiles or of consequences, but an essential argument: “Its ways are pleasantness and all its paths are peace.” Halakhah is supposed to operate in ways that are manifestly moral, and peace is the indication of that, not the instrumental goal. It is natural to note here that in this situation there is nothing new, and seemingly the same argument should have been taken into account by the Sages. Why then did they not permit desecrating Shabbat to save a Gentile’s life? I assume he implicitly relies on the Meiri’s factual claim. Yet if so, there is no need for his far-reaching interpretation of “ways of peace.” In any event, I do not agree with his claim, for by that logic all the non-moral laws are null (note that he permits biblical Shabbat desecration on this basis). True to my view, there is no connection between halakhah and morality. In any case, in my opinion this is a reformist claim.

Destroying Idolatry

Further similar examples of the past nisht principle I brought in column 447. I began there with destroying idolatry in our day. I have no doubt that the reason no posek actually argues that this is obligatory today is not only due to the excuses of “our hand is not strong” and various fears. At least most understand (often unconsciously) that it is past nisht. It cannot be that we demand that others respect us and grant us freedom of worship and we do not grant it to others. And again, this is not only a tactical consideration but an essential one. Note that here we are dealing with a command imposed by the Torah itself, not the Sages; therefore the value substrate is binding. Hence I do not accept such rationales within halakhah. If there is no halakhic explanation, one cannot simply reinterpret or uproot the law. But again I note that it can be deferred in favor of a moral consideration. The moral consideration has independent standing, and even if it does not enter the halakhic calculus to change it, it still has standing when deciding what to do in practice.

In this sense one could say something similar regarding qualifying women based on a value consideration. It is not possible to change halakhah because of equality, since there is no conservative midrash; but one could defer halakhah in favor of morality (or do a meta-meta-halakhic conservative midrash and claim that at the base of this halakhah there is no value substrate; this is borrowing from external values, and therefore we too may borrow and change).

Secular Courts

Another example discussed in the follow-up column (448) is the prohibition of resorting to secular courts (arka’ot) in our day. I explained there that we are dealing with a past nisht consideration, but this is a different sort of consideration than the previous ones. Here, the value on the basis of which we change the halakhah and permit unqualified judges to adjudicate is itself a halakhic value (the existence of an effective judicial system; this is the commandment of dinim, which obligates Gentiles and of course us as well). A past nisht consideration of this kind—which is not based on a moral consideration external to halakhah, but on a meta-halakhic consideration—has a place even in shaping the halakhah itself. In that column I explained that neither in Syria then nor in Israel today is there a formal halakhic solution to the prohibition of arka’ot. The conservative midrashim advanced in this context (mainly by religious judges, against an almost total rabbinic consensus) are unconvincing. Therefore I said that one should be honest and say that indeed there is no solution, and resorting to the courts is a severe biblical prohibition—and nonetheless there is no choice and we must transgress it. The value of an effective judicial system in a proper society overrides the prohibition of appointing an unfit judge, arka’ot, and laymen. This is an example of a decision that does not use halakhic reshaping but a consideration like compulsion (ones), and under compulsion one can deviate from halakhah (the novelty is that this is an expanded notion of compulsion beyond its standard halakhic meaning, as I explained there).

Women’s Testimony

Another example is the words of the Noda BiYehuda and the Terumat HaDeshen regarding women’s testimony in places where men’s testimony cannot be obtained. For example, if a murder occurred in a women’s mikveh (or in the women’s section of a synagogue). In such a place there cannot be a male witness, and therefore the murderer is “home free.” This is unreasonable, and those poskim argue that women’s testimony should be accepted in such a case (either biblically or rabbinically; opinions differ), because it is past nisht for there to be a place beyond the reach of the judicial system. Seemingly this is an argument based on values rather than a change in circumstances. A murder in a mikveh or women’s section could have occurred in the distant past as well. Nothing in our reality has changed that compels us precisely now to change the law. If they were right, the Sages themselves should have said so.

Note that they do not offer a conservative midrash explaining why the disqualification of women is void here.[5] Hence seemingly this is not an acceptable halakhic argument, for there is no conservatism here at all (not even midrashic). On the other hand, it is a reasonable and compelling past nisht argument. As I said above, in my view such arguments cannot enter the shaping of halakhah itself, since there is no conservative midrash. But one can use them to justify a local deviation from it.

In passing I note that in the case of a murder in a mikveh there is no need for any of this, for precisely such cases are the province of the king’s law (mishpat hamelekh; see e.g. column 164). Where there is a known murderer and no formal possibility to convict him, the king imposes judgment according to his rules (not subject to halakhah). Hence here there is no lacuna requiring a solution within halakhah. The king’s law is the way to make exceptions to halakhah where there is a conflicting value (a kind of past nisht consideration). But where there is no king and yet one conducts oneself according to halakhah, the question remains.

Intellectual Property

Another example is the question of copyright (see my article on deception and intellectual property in Tehumin 25). I showed there that there is no simple halakhic source allowing us to recognize intellectual property as biblical property, and therefore not to view one who infringes it as a thief (mainly because it is an abstract thing “without substance”). And yet, Sages over the generations have tried to find various circumventions, and some simply stated—without argument—that it is theft. One argument raised by the author of She’ol U-Meishiv (new series, vol. 1, no. 44) is:

For surely, when an author publishes a new book and merits that his words are accepted throughout the world, it is obvious that he has a right in this forever… Shall our complete Torah be like their idle chatter?! This is something that reason rejects, and daily practice shows that one who publishes a work has a right, as does his agent.

Behold a borrowing of a value recognized by the Gentiles and its importation into halakhah—precisely like my proposal regarding qualifying women for testimony. Note that this also runs counter to a halakhic statement that there is no property in an insubstantial thing.

R. Shimon Shkop likewise wrote at the beginning of his Hiddushei Bava Kamma:

Just as in matters relating to a person’s rights it is agreed according to the laws of the Torah and the laws of the nations that whoever invents something new in the world is its owner with every right…

So too wrote Rabbi Wosner in his approbation to Emek HaMishpat:

And regarding the law itself, surely the Torah’s view inclines that there is a prohibition of theft, etc., in what one’s fellow has completely invented anew, whether a halakhic work and the like, or other things—and so is the law of the kingdom everywhere in the world.

It is important to understand that their claim is not that there is hillul Hashem, but that if even the Gentiles recognize this, then in halakhah it must certainly be so. That is a value argument grounded in the values of Gentiles. Not surprisingly, zealots objected to such statements with the claim—which in my view is justified—what have we to do with the values of Gentiles that stand in contradiction to explicit laws?[6] These are rationales that attempt to effect a halakhic change without a conservative midrash but merely because among Gentiles (and the poskim themselves) a different value is accepted. They also do not write that there has been a change in factual circumstances (though there has been, because of the scope of the phenomenon and the volume of books and digital material); it is clear that they do not hang their hat on circumstantial change but state a law that, in their view, was always true.

In the bottom line, with apologies to the aforementioned poskim, in my view these are reformist arguments, for they are presented without a conservative midrash. Indeed, in the article cited I presented a conservative midrash regarding ownership of an insubstantial thing; in my opinion, without it there is no room for considerations of this sort—at least not when they come to shape halakhah rather than justify a deviation from it. Perhaps those poskim had that or similar in mind, but they do not write anything of the sort.

Slippery Slope

In column 275 I brought the words of Rabbi Ariel regarding a “smart home.” He argued that one should prohibit the whole matter—even if no specific prohibition is found—because permitting it will turn Shabbat into weekday. I argued there that this is a meta-halakhic consideration that is beyond the authority of any posek or institution in our time. You cannot innovate prohibitions on your own initiative. In light of what I write here I will only add that this can be done if you have a conservative midrash—that is, if you can show that these things are included in existing prohibitions, biblical or rabbinic. Incidentally, this is yet another example of a reformist argument from a conservative posek (except that this time it is a stringency—but I have already explained that that distinction is irrelevant to our discussion).

“Tinok Shenishba”

The Chazon Ish and many other poskim ruled that regarding today’s secular Jews the laws of heretics and the rule “let them go down and not be raised up” do not apply. Some relied on defining them as tinokot shenishbu (“captured infants”; a very expansive definition of the original concept), and others on the claim that in our generation no one knows how to rebuke (as if in their time they did). The sense is that implicitly these rulings also rest on a value consideration and not on a conservative midrash. The claim is that it is past nisht to throw a secular Jew into a pit—even if we have no conservative midrash to ground it. But that can only lead to deferring halakhah because of a moral principle, not to an intra-halakhic interpretive change.

Abolishing the Institution of Kiddushin

From time to time one hears protests about halakhah’s treatment of women. One of the central topics in these discussions is the bond between a woman and her husband. Claims are raised as if halakhah sees the woman as her husband’s property. The rabbinic advocate Rivka Lubitch infers from this that in our time the institution of kiddushin should be abolished and we should return to pre-Sinai marriage. I will not go into the details here (see further in my article here). My main claim was that this deviation from halakhah has no justification, and it is unreasonable to accept a demand for halakhic change without a conservative midrash. The Torah commands kiddushin, and even if we were to assume that its meaning was the husband’s acquisition of the wife—what does Lubitch propose: to refrain from fulfilling the Torah’s command? On what grounds? To abolish the laws of mamzerut? Or perhaps to perform kiddushin but cancel the proprietary meanings within it? Without a reasonable conservative midrash such proposals cannot be raised. She could, to be sure, claim that because of the conflict between halakhah and morality here, morality prevails as an extra-halakhic consideration. In principle that could be accepted—but there is no need. It is not true that the institution of kiddushin includes the husband’s ownership of his wife. Moreover, if one is to change, one can change the institution of kiddushin rather than abolish it—for example, to institute mutual kiddushin. I see no sense in abolishing a biblical law because of a moral consideration where there is no need.

In the next column we will, at long last, reach a definition of Modern Orthodoxy, and I will try to use the arsenal presented so far to lay it out.

[1] “The two men who have the dispute shall stand before the Lord”—men and not women. Many have already pointed out two very fundamental difficulties in this strange derashah: those who stand before the Lord are the litigants, not the witnesses. How then can women be disqualified from testimony by virtue of this verse? Beyond that, the hermeneutic rule in halakhah is that the Torah speaks equally to male and female (Scripture equates woman to man for all punishments in the Torah), except where it is explicitly clarified otherwise. Therefore, simply, when the Torah writes “men,” it means human beings in general, including women. And indeed the litigants, who are the plain sense of the verse, can certainly also be women.

[2] By way of example, I have heard more than once that murder for “family honor” is not part of Islamic tradition but the product of Arab culture (of the Arabian deserts). Over time it was absorbed, as it were, into Islamic law (at least among certain groups), for religious law digests cultural principles from its environment and makes them part of itself.

[3] There are, of course, many further examples. Some appear in the talkbacks to the previous column.

[4] One could argue that today I understand that from the outset the Torah did not mean that, except that in the past, because of the different (less developed) atmosphere and culture, people did not grasp this.

[5] One can, with difficulty, present it as a conservative midrash: the disqualification of women is not categorical, but only when men are available. This seems like unconvincing formalism.

[6] And according to their view it is unclear what to make of the poskim who prohibited infringing authors’ rights and did so via bans and enactments (among them R. Akiva Eiger, the Hatam Sofer, the Maharsham, and many others). See Emek HaMishpat §20, cited by Rabbi Wosner, who explained that their intent was only for books without creative innovation. This is a very forced reading of their words, as explained there.

60 תגובות

  1. Two preliminary comments
    Rabbi Shlomo Fischer, zt”l, who admired the Chazon Ish, said that his words about two thousand years of Torah are puzzling.
    Our Ashkenazi rabbis apparently did not believe that the sages had hidden reasons for their decrees, and therefore in certain cases they believed that if the reason was nullified, the decree was nullified.

  2. Regarding the words of Hazo”a on the two thousand Torahs – I heard from my rabbis that his intention is that indeed the ruling of the halakhah needs to be changed, but this needs to be done by the consent of the sages of Israel in the Sanhedrin or by the acceptance of the entire Jewish people, and we haven't had such an institution for hundreds of years

    Regarding the slippery slope – One of the problems with ”conservatism” where everything can be changed is not that if everything can be changed there is a fear that, God forbid, someone will change everything, but rather that the entire difference between the conservative and the innovator is how willing he is to find “conservative” midrashim. To illustrate – a person will come and say “I am very careful. When I am waiting for the train, I stay away from the yellow line” another person will come and say “I am more careful than you. Although I walk on the train tracks themselves, I am careful not to get hit by the train. (As John Lennon said: it's not that I didn't understand the question, it's you who don't understand life) This is a different kind of caution. The same thing here, is inventing something new and calling it conservatism. Although this argument has been made, the answer refers to the *fear* of a slippery slope and not to the fact that if I walk on a slippery slope I am certainly not a careful person.
    In short, there is a difference between claiming that an act or an attitude has legitimacy, and claiming that they are conservative (and as the wise man says, “what am I actually guarding”). It is true that in some of the examples here the proposed innovation was rejected, but it was rejected because it had no basis, not because it is innovative

    1. That's a nice explanation. I didn't think of it. It's true that it's difficult to burden him with the language of the prophet, since he could have said it himself simply. Beyond that, in itself I don't agree with this explanation, since changing laws that were based on an error does not qualify an authorized institution. It's like taking an error for granted.

        1. Regarding the prediction ”a – I understood from them that this was the real reason, but the prediction was phrased this way both because of its figurative language and because in the end we see that this argument was accepted in yeshivas…
          Regarding a case of error – Not necessarily, someone who came to teaching and knew that they were wrong cannot trust their teaching to the kulak, but is there an explicit source that allows him to dispute their teaching to the kulak? And apparently already in the Mishnah this question was raised in tractate Rosh Hashanah and the ruling is that they are even mistaken (one could say that it is specifically in the kiddush of the month. But a conservative preacher would expect this to apply as a rule)

          The second argument – It is not like a slippery slope. On a slippery slope I do not allow women to read the Torah lest they start singing. Here the question is whether I am conservative or not. If my approach is one that allows anything that maintains a vague connection to the source, it is difficult to call it conservatism. Not because of what is supposed to happen, but because there is already a fundamental difference between my religion and the religion of my ancestors, and there are no clear enough red lines.

          A third point, related to the second - does not the absence of conservative midrashim, even where the law is being changed (for example, on the issue of copyright), indicate that the tradition is not to use conservative midrashim? In fact, the use of conservative midrashim is itself an innovation

          1. As you wrote, you are even mistaken, let's just say that. This expansion is unreasonable. And even if you personally think it should be made, I don't think so. The Shas is full of mistakes that are canceled because there were mistakes.

            An approach that allows any talk with a vague connection to the source I don't know what is meant. This is certainly not my approach.

            No. In many cases, sages do not need reasoning. But there are certainly conservative changes and midrashim (Hika Danfishi, Murderers, etc.).

  3. The move in 2 is that the authority of the Gemara is on the halacha in practice and not on the old sense, *therefore* it is possible to ‘change’ today the halacha in practice by relying on the new sense, because ultimately the halacha depends on the sense? (And if I understand correctly, although I didn't understand why: the new sense needs to be united with the old, simplified halacha on the old time).

      1. Why is there a need for a change in values and to say that even the sage “if he were alive today” would advocate the new value. If I just think differently about the value, just for myself, without any change in anything external, then the move is not valid?
        For example, the halacha that building is work on Shabbat. What is the reason that the sage at that time thought so – a certain reason. I don't think that reason (say). “Anyway” the halacha in practice changes and this is not contrary to the formal authority over the halacha in practice. I guess I just didn't understand, can you explain what the difference is?

        1. Absolutely. This is my argument that the sages have no authority on values. But sometimes you can also say that the change is universal and therefore if they were alive today they would also agree.
          Taste is not a value. The taste of the halakhah is the halakhah itself. It is a bit like distinguishing between a fence and taste, and it is really difficult to draw a sharp line.

          1. What is the point of Halacha? Halacha itself if the formal authority is only on the bottom line?

            1. It is common not to demand a reason for reading, but the fence is constantly discussed. A common phenomenon is that when someone offers an explanation for some law and is accused of demanding a reason for reading, he replies that it is the fence and not the reason. But what is the difference between a fence and a reason?
              Rabbi Shilat brings an example from Rabbi Gedaliah Nadel: The laws of the yeshiva in the sukkah can be defined under the following heading: Make the sukkah your permanent residence. From this, several conclusions can be drawn for the kollah and the chumara. But this is not a demand for a reason for reading because this definition is not the reason for these laws but their boundary. It is not an explanation of why they should be done (a purposive explanation) but a phenomenological description of them and their generalization under one general principle. Like a phenomenological theory in science, which is different from a substantive theory.
              The boundary is part of the law, and the boundary that I got from the Talmud binds me. But the reason for things and the values that underlie them do not bind me. And again I say that the dividing line is not sharp.

              1. In other words, the authority to define the difference between reason and opinion allows for a conditional split, because the definition is by nature specific to each case, and only the reason is common?

              2. No. Both the definition and the reason apply to all cases. It is a phenomenological theory and it is essential.

              3. A. The revolutionary conservative who appeared in the current column claims that if one disagrees with the value of “and therefore” the field of the fence and the law has been invaded, then this does not contradict the formal authority of the fence and the law (cutting off a limb is forbidden, but cutting off the entire hand is permitted).
                From your words in many places, I understood correctly that the fence is also always the result of some interpretation (even if it has not been fully conceptualized). So if it is permissible to disagree with formal authority in ”and therefore” why is it impossible to disagree with the fence, of course only as a result of interpretation and not directly, in every law and halakhah?
                They fenced off, make your yeshiva in the sukkah permanent, because of some understandings, and I will assume that I truly and sincerely understand otherwise, so I will agree to fence off, make your yeshiva temporary. They defined that fire is without a life force and other power mixed in it and its way to go and harm, because of some understandings, and so and so another understands them correctly that fire is something that consumes matter and feeds on the consumption. They defined it as

                B. And there are places where the ”interpretation” is completely on the table, and these are the places where the Sages use a general explanation and give rise to laws from the Torah [examples in general, such as everything that is not one after another even in the Bible is not, choice, causes wealth as wealth, the possession of fruits as the possession of the body, not a worker is not a benefit, onsa is not like David, come as one, the commandment is not to enjoy was given]. All of these give rise to private laws, for example the temple two sisters as one, there is no sanctification at all.
                Does such an explanation of Chazal have formal authority (in the eyes of the conservative who changes by virtue of values), or is it simply an interpretation that stems from a way of thinking, and is not protected under formal authority, and therefore it is permissible to disagree with it, and I (or our generation) have a different way of thinking, and the halakha will in fact change "anyway".

              4. A. I didn't understand the question. The fact that a boundary is the product of interpretation means that it is permissible to disagree with it? Who said that? We are committed to the interpretation of the Talmud. Not to its values and its purposive interpretation (tema dakra), but to its interpretation that produces the halakhic boundary. I don't see how this can be separated from the commitment to the halakhic law itself.
                B. As above. These are interpretations that concern the boundaries of the halakhic boundaries and not their reasons and the values that underlie them.

              5. They interpreted according to and in accordance with their values and according to and in accordance with their own way of thinking and reasoning, and they gave rise to laws and judgments. What is the difference between the interpretations, the reason why one was not granted formal authority and its companion was? I don't understand and I can't find words that are supposed to explain it. (Apart from the fact that I didn't understand how in this column it suddenly became linked to the division of conditional opinion and the removal of the Shabbat.)

              6. I don't understand the question. Take the example of the sukkah. Commitment to Talmudic law also includes a commitment to the boundary because this is the law. But it does not include a commitment to the taste and values that underlie the purposive interpretation. These are not the law but the motive of reading. Just as one uses the boundaries of reading and not its taste. To put it another way: the values of the sages are the values of people and there is no reason to be committed to them. They do not remove the values from the Torah but use them to interpret. But the interpretive logic (the boundary) is part of the law itself. I don't think I know how to explain it better.

              7. In the trilogy, Book Three on the Theory of Halachic Change, you dealt with value change on pages 283-284, and there you concluded, “In contrast, a value change such as the one we are dealing with here is a real change in Halachic law. Here the new court disagrees with the previous court, and therefore the rules of change and the requirements of authority (Sanhedrin, a court large in wisdom and quorum, etc.) are required here.” Therefore, even if a value change (a change of the principles of the bridge) is possible on the principle level, questions of authority arise even more strongly in it.”
                In other words, such a change refines the supreme authority (the one that also has the power to disagree with everything else in Halachic law).

                But in this column, it seems that you have thrown the reins of authority away from the value change. Regarding the issue of innovation in the column, there is no commitment to the halakha itself, instead there is a serious debate about the ethical foundation by virtue of which and in whose atmosphere this halakha was born in the minds of the sages in interpretation and explanation. And you explained this (if I understood correctly. I am no longer sure of anything) in a confusing way that although there is a formal commitment to the lower halakhic line, there is no commitment to the upper line (ethical foundation), and therefore if one disagrees with permission about the upper line and in any case a dispute about the lower line ensues, then this does not contradict the formal authority that protects only the lower line separately, because that is apparently what the formal authorizing authority, the Reverend Father, stated for some reason.

                [And I have multiplied the questions that you said are not understandable and are concerned with asking what the line is between the upper and lower lines, whether the general way of thinking is also the upper line and there is no commitment to it because it is a human way of thinking, etc. And if there is no division between the two, then it is clear that the aforementioned formal author, Nocho Eden, did not intend to leave such a loophole for people to come to him through the roof and through the sly, but rather defended the bottom line in all its aspects, except for midrashic conservatism, which is the bottom line in essence.]

                My questions and requests:
                A. Did I manage to describe your words here in a correct column [and if possible, could you please be thorough in this and correct me if I made any mistakes in the description].
                B. Is there indeed a step forward in this column from what is said in the trilogy?

              8. Just a small correction. I don't think I wrote that your questions were incomprehensible. I gave an answer that is indeed not black and white (the difference between taste and fence) and I said that I cannot explain it better than what I did, as the well-known words of the Ramban: "The wisdom of our Torah is not like the wisdom of the attribute and the deduction, whose patterns are cut off."
                Regarding your questions:
                A. You described correctly.
                B. I no longer remember what I wrote there, but the issue of authority has not really been explained here, and it will be explained in the next column. In the meantime, I have not addressed the question of authority, but rather the fundamental possibility of conservative change.

  4. In the Book of Omer, p. 2,

    Relying on women's testimony where there is no male testimony is anchored in the words of Chazal, for example: the loyalty of the midwife to testify to the identity of the newborn, and the loyalty of a woman and a child to testify, "From here came this flock" (Mishnah B.K. 10:3). This is part of the authority and duty of the court to "judge a true and truthful judgment" and to prevent "deceitful judgment," to act when necessary even outside the letter of the law for the sake of "consecrating a circumcision."

    Regarding the "Two Thousand Torahs" As the prophet mentioned, it seems that his intention was that since the Torah's commandments were given for implementation during the period of the giving of the Torah, the Torah was not given to the ministering angels, who had sophisticated labs, but rather in accordance with the observation tools that people had at the time of the giving of the Torah, and just as it is unthinkable that there would be a prohibition on creatures that are visible only through a microscope.

    But to accept values that are contrary to the Torah and the Sages is a frontal rebellion against the words of the Sages.

    With blessings, Eliam Fishel Werkheimer

    According to this reasoning, it must be said that insects that cannot be distinguished as being fertile and numerous except with the help of modern equipment are not forbidden by the Torah. On the other hand, it must be noted that in general, On Shabbat, it means that they recognized two types of lice, and perhaps the lice we see today are of the type that was abundant in the time of Chazal.

    1. Even Rabbi Unterman's words that the 'paths of peace' are not just a fear of conflict with the Gentiles, but the obligation to resemble the 'God of mercy' in all his actions and to follow the paths of the Torah, whose 'paths are peace', are explained in the words of Maimonides, and are not a 'modern innovation'. But from this one cannot derive permission to desecrate Shabbat by prohibiting the Torah from a Gentile, for in this there is no permission except from the pikuach nefesh of Israel that will arise from a situation in which we refrain from caring for a Gentile on Shabbat.

      With blessings, Apoorva

      1. Thus the Maimonides writes (1 Kings 12:12):

        ”… And it seems to me that they do not do this to a resident alien, but always judge him by their own laws. And it seems to me that they treat resident aliens in the way of the land and in acts of kindness like the Israelites, for we are commanded to revive them… and this is what the Sages said: “And they do not double their peace” – in the Acre– and not to a resident alien. Even the Acres commanded the Sages to visit their sick and bury their dead with the dead of the Israelites because of the ways of peace. Thus it is said: “It is good for the To all and His mercy upon all his works, and it is said: “Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.”

        1. This is a distinction between a Gentile and a resident alien that existed even then. Therefore, here it is an acceptable interpretive midrash.

      2. Indeed, I was wrong here. Rabbi Unterman (Shivah of Judah, 33:17) does not propose to fundamentally change the halakha, but only to permit the rabbinical works. For some reason, I remembered that his words were also said about the works of the Torah.

    2. To do unlawfully is as simple as possible. As far as I remember, the argument of Teruma”d and the Novi”i is that this is the law.

      Indeed, then it is clear that the Torah was given to humans according to the knowledge they had. The question is why we cling to what was then. Furthermore, what determines is not two thousand years of Torah but the time of the giving of Torah.

      I do not see what the problem is with a frontal rebellion against the Sages. I explained that they have no authority in the field of values.

      1. If someone were to come along and claim that every permission or prohibition based on modern knowledge is irrelevant - would that be an acceptable approach?
        It's not even necessarily considered a conservative argument, it's an argument about the intent of the Torah

      2. In the 2nd chapter of the Book of Revelation, it is stated that accepting a woman's testimony in a place where there are no men to testify is an ancient rule, and it is:
        ‘… But the ancient rule is, in a place where there are no people who are accustomed to being there, such as in a women's synagogue or in some other random thing that a woman is accustomed to and not people, such as saying that these clothes were worn by a certain woman and they are hers and people are not accustomed to being meticulous about this – Loyal women (Terumat Hadshan Siman Sheng and Agudah Chapter 13 Genealogy)
        Therefore, there are those who have written that even a single woman or a relative or a minor are loyal in matters of beating and dishonoring a husband or other quarrels and disputes, since there is no way to invite qualified witnesses for this and there is no time to invite them (Maherik Shoresh Ket and Maherik Merizbork and his Kalbu Siman 16) and it is that the plaintiff claims to be right (Maherik Shoresh 23).

        Regarding the origin of the ‘Tikkanat HaKadamonim’ – Ram’a in ’Drachei Moshe’ he wrote that it is from the regulations of Rabbeinu Gershom of the Light of the Gola. The Maharashtrian (A.H. Si. KG) attributes the regulation to Rabbi Tam (Dr. Avi Weinrot, The Woman in the Judicial Process, note 5, . on the Da'at website).

        The Maimonides (Hilkot Ishut, Chapter 21, Halacha 10) also writes regarding a factual dispute in a dispute between a man and his wife: "They sit a woman between them," and this is according to what the judge sees as possible in the matter. (Weinrot, ibid., note 15. In my response to Eli Hadad's article, "Going Out into the Wider Spaces" (on the "Mossaf Shabbat-Makor Rishon" website), I noted the Rashba's response regarding a dispute between a man and his wife, which he also wrote that "the moshivim resided among them" to find out who was to blame. And I said in a clear way: "They deserved the Shechinah among them; they did not deserve the Shechinah among them" 🙂

        In short: we do not need the conservative midrash of the Modern-Orthodox, which denies the ethical authority of the sages. Both the Sages and the Rishonim and the Aharonim recognized the duty and right of the court to do what is necessary to clarify the truth, and the authority of the public to amend regulations for this purpose.

        With greetings, Apoor

        It is worth noting that even when the poskim found a need for women's testimony, they made sure that the testimony was given in a way that would not embarrass the witness, as the R”n (in the name of the Ge’onim) said that ’women are not examined in demand and interrogation’ (Weinroth, note 27) and allowed them to testify in their homes without appearing before the court (Pitchei Teshuvah and Igrot Moshe. Weinroth, note 25-26).

        And as Weinroth explained:
        ‘It is known to everyone who is interested in the matter, that the process of legal expertise, and especially the cross-examination that takes place within its framework – It is not an easy process for a witness on the witness stand, and in many cases it can harm the witness's dignity. In the judicial process, the witness's credibility is tested from various angles, and cross-examination constitutes a certain type of confrontation between the witness and one of the parties to the legal process. Furthermore, in many cases the judicial authority is required to express its opinion at the end of the process on the witness's credibility, and the witness is not always flattered, and sometimes he is also harmed. Therefore, out of a deep and deeply rooted value attitude towards the dignity of women, Jewish law sought to spare her this procedure wherever possible.

        1. Orit Malka (in her article, “Woman’s Testimony and One-Witness Testimony in the Tannaim Laws,” Dinei Yisrael 3 [5721;F], p. 227270) emphasizes the comparison between a woman’s testimony and the testimony of a single witness. Where one witness is trustworthy, a woman is also trustworthy. When the Torah requires the presence of two witnesses, women do not join in as two witnesses.

          She offers the explanation that where two witnesses are required, the matter becomes a public ritual, and fidelity is not enough. A woman does not join in a “public ritual,” but remains in the “private domain.” She compares this to a summons, which when the blessing of food becomes a public ritual, the woman does not join.

          Best regards, Apoor

          In one of my responses to Eli Hadad's article, "Departing into the Wider Spaces" (mentioned above), I mentioned the words of the Maharal comparing the invalidity of a woman's testimony to the invalidity of receiving testimony at night. This comparison also shows that there is no problem of lack of loyalty here, but rather part of the ceremonial aspects of the status of receiving testimony, without which there is no "testimony". After all, three judges who saw at night cannot rule during the day based on their vision, even though their knowledge of the facts is absolutely certain, but they need other witnesses to testify before them.

        2. Shchel, this is truly a wonderful trick. We don't need a conservative midrash in the Modern Orthodox style because several of the first and greatest poskim have done this. In other words, bringing evidence to Modern Orthodox from the greatest poskim. It reminds me of the joke about the Jew who was about to drown at sea and vowed to God Almighty that if He would summon a ship for him, he would repent and finish the Shas. Immediately a ship appeared, and then that righteous man turned to God Almighty and said: Thank you, there's no need, I've already sorted it out.

          1. Please be precise. I wrote, "We do not need a 'conservative requirement' of Modern-Orthodox that denies the ethical authority of the sages." The former and the latter discussed the application of Halacha in reality explicitly according to the intention of the sages and in accordance with the world of faith and values, and not by a 'deconstruction' that separates the body of Halacha from its soul. Such a 'deconstruction' is more appropriately called 'postmodern Orthodoxy' 🙂

            With greetings, Shimshel Fokullinger

            1. Line 2-3
              … The first and the last discussed the application of Halacha in a changing reality, according to the intention of the sages and in accordance with their world of faith and values. No…

            2. And from a practical perspective, raising an argument of ‘not accepting the ethical authority of the sages” labels its owner as someone who’stands on the outside’, and in such a situation, even if he were to raise an argument that would be acceptable in Torah discourse – they would not consider it.

              Best regards, Apoor

              1. שימוש בהמודרנה בהישגי המודרנה - לחזק את ההלכה ולא לערער says:

                Modern Orthodoxy is tested by its ability to use the achievements of modernity to strengthen the observance of Halacha, and for example, developing automation helps to fulfill essential needs without desecrating the Sabbath, and irradiated technology allows for a more efficient selection of foods without fear of worm infestation or preventing the entry of worms, and precise instruments allow for more precise squaring of tefillin and more precise measurement of Torah lessons and their times, so that the achievements of modernity may be corrected and not distorted.

                With greetings, Apoorva

  5. According to how the rabbi explained Rabbi Unterman's words [I didn't see it in person], it follows that if we accept the assumption that there are homosexuals out of inclination
    and that it is not just lust, then he would permit it because it is immoral ?????

  6. Everyone agrees with the Rabbi that there was a reason for Chazal's regulation prohibiting women from testifying, but not everyone and not the Rabbi knows what it is. So even the Rabbi doubts that this does not apparently depend on the doubt of the Rabbis regarding the Kula and the Daraita of the Chumara?

    1. If there is a reasonable explanation versus the possibility of an unknown explanation, it is not a state of doubt. Otherwise, every law in the world is in doubt because it may not be correct.

  7. In Tractate Berakhot it is said:
    “A”R. Yochanan on behalf of R. Yossi Amnin that he should not be angry with a person in the time of his anger, as it is written (Exodus 33:14) His face will pass and I will give you rest. The Holy One said to Moses, "Wait for me until the face of wrath has passed and I will give you rest. And who is there who is angry? He is holy and blessed, and he is not angry (Psalms 7:12) And God is angry every day, and how much is his anger in a moment? How much is one moment out of five thousand and eight thousand and eight hundred and eighty-eight in an hour, and this is a moment”
    That is, it means from this that there is a change (permanent and cyclical?) in the ”feelings” of the Holy One, and this has a metaphysical effect on the world.

  8. This is not relevant to the topic of the column, but merely notes that according to many of the Rishonim (Tosafot Bava Kama, Chapter 1 and more), the word "man" equates "woman" with "man" in all laws in the Torah, which is specifically masculine (meaning if it were written and the two stood for "theirs" - it is impossible to say "and not for them"), but what is written in the Parush is "man" or "people" rather than "women."

    1. That is, when it is written, “If a man’s ox gores his fellow man’s ox,” do we learn that a woman’s ox is exempt? Or if people gore and gore a pregnant woman, is this an obligation only on men?

      1. You are mocking, but it is indeed true that a male ox and not a female ox is obligatory for the Dinah, because there are 6 additional plurals of ox written in the Tosafot, the Orphan Ox, and more. This is how Tosafot Yom Tov wrote about the following Mishnah:
        To the point:
        The intention is not that everywhere it says a male ox must exclude a female, but that it is possible to exclude a female from this language, and this does not contradict the rule of the written equivalent. Therefore, there are cases where a male ox excludes something else, and to the Dinah, a female ox is also obligatory.
        Therefore, in my opinion, requiring a male ox and not a female ox is not a reference to the sabbath, as I think I saw in the past that you think. (I did see a commentator on the Rambam in the past who said that the Rambam disagrees with the Tosafot on this and believes that the rule of the written equivalent teaches that a male cannot be married to a female ox, and this is indeed a reference.)

        1. I'm still mocking. And do you imagine that without this teaching, a woman's ox would not be liable? See Bk. 15:1 for a lengthy comparison between a man and a woman (and even there it is not really necessary). And of course the teaching you mention, in Bk. 44:2, is only given regarding the death of the ox, which is a special law and not regarding compensation for damage.

  9. Simple conservatism with a head against the wall as a principle.
    Is it actually a continuation of the Karaites?

    1. And perhaps a system that accepts only the Talmudic halakhic text, without commitment to the spiritual world of the sages and the interpretations of the first and last – is a continuation of the Karaite system, which adheres to the text and rejects the interpretive tradition of the sages of the generations, as a clear instruction: ‘Hafish Shafir in the Torah and do not need my opinion’?

      With greetings, E.K. Feigenblatt-Lichtman the Puritan

    2. The Karaites are not simple conservatives. They write midrashim and commentaries on the Bible, but they do not accept the Tosheva.

  10. You wrote: “The concern that is expected to arise in those who read such a proposal is completely understandable to me. Such proposals can be made for every single halacha, and thus completely empty the halacha of values, and in fact also completely empty conservatism of its content… The question is where it leads, and questions of a slippery slope are second-order questions”.

    But:

    1. This concern is not of the slippery slope type. The problem is not what might happen if we changed the halacha in this way, but that such a mechanism essentially declares that the halacha is almost invalid. Every text requires interpretation, and as you wrote, there are values behind interpretation. If we say about every value that we want that today the sages would think differently, we have in fact said that the Torah told us nothing. And this is of course a very problematic statement.

    2. The assumption that the sages would think differently requires evidence. Even if you see that their values were similar to those of the ancient East (and this is not always the case), this is not evidence. Perhaps some of the values of the ancient East were closer to the values of the Torah. Of course, it is possible not to, but it is not reasonable to enter the minds of sages who lived thousands of years ago and try to understand what they would think today. And even more so to take action as a result.

    1. 1. I disagree. The Torah wanted things, but the interpretations of it are given by people, from the Sages to the present day. Therefore, a change in values in contrast to the Sages is not a deviation from the intention of the Holy One. In my opinion, this is precisely what He intended.
      2. I don’t get into their heads, because if they were alive today, they wouldn’t be Sages, but Sages who live today. Therefore, they would probably be as important as we are. The statement that the Sages would also agree to this step is merely illustrative. It really doesn’t matter what they would say.

  11. I saw that no source was provided for the words of the Gracious One mentioned at the beginning of the discussion. To the best of my memory, the words appear in the work of Rav Si'tsa (not enough space right now).

    I now found the work of Rav on the Internet there: It is forbidden to be seen openly, even though there are no snakes among us. And he, the late, was very, very careful about this:

    In the expansions on the work of Rav (I have the Zalushinsky edition in my house, it came out recently) this point is presented there regarding the opinions of Chazal.

    And now I found the following (on Rabbi Asher Weiss' website):

    However, it is known that the words of the Pat HaShulchan (Halk' Eretz Yisrael s.i.c. b. s.k. 32) were stricter in this regard, and he said:

    Our late Rabbi was very careful abroad in all laws of disclosure on his part and reasoned that one should be careful in all the words of a sage, even if the reason they revealed was null, because they revealed only one reason and concealed many hidden reasons, and as stated in the will of Rabbi HaGadol, another reason is dangerous in revealing the drink in the case of a man who drinks.

  12. I read the column on the subject, and what do I say and what should I say? I am convinced. Indeed, it is possible to change any law with a midrash, and still be defined as conservative. You claim that not the entire Torah will change as a result, and I agree with you, but you also accept the concern that over the years more and more reasons will arise for why to change the prohibition of pork and the prohibition of niddah and who knows what else.
    And you are right that this is not a fundamental consideration but a tactical one, but I think that this itself can be used as a midrash by those who play small-minded and insist on simplistic conservatism.
    They will say so, in peace, as long as there is a great court authorized to innovate and change according to the information and values of each generation, we accept the fact that God gave a Torah that is liable to change completely slowly in its content, and there is still the idea here of a people obeying the instructions of their God in that the sages of the Torah are the ones who chart their path. But this reality could not continue after the destruction of the Temple and the disintegration of the Sanhedrin, and therefore, in order to preserve the very concept of Torah and Halacha, we had to freeze all changes, so that we could preserve the idea of ‘keeping the Torah’ for the days to come when Atara will return to its old days.
    According to my approach, the Torah was given in order to preserve it in a midrashic form, not only from a factual perspective but also from a value perspective. But if today it is given to everyone his own midrash in his own hand, the Torah will become an empty shell. Because there is no uniform teaching here from a high court for the entire people who bear the name of G-d upon them, and each one is found with his own values in his own hand, and all the Gentiles are the House of Israel. Therefore, the Torah changed in this too, and they began to freeze it in a simplistic conservative manner.

    1. Your midrash is not an interpretation of the law, but an innovation that you propose beyond the law. You cannot introduce your own innovations into the law, if only because you do not have authority (Sanhedrin).

    2. I have not been able to understand why you define it this way. I am not demanding a specific legal goal, but rather the goal of giving all the Torah commandments in a comprehensive manner.

      1. By this definition, any addition to the Torah is a conservative midrash. I want you to stand on your left foot every day for five minutes. I demand the intention of the Torah to meditate. You empty the concept of a conservative midrash (and also of Bel Tosif).

  13. You wrote in a column that the halachic changes you will make as a halachic conservative will also be for the grave,
    According to the laws of stains, will a stain smaller than a grain of sand be considered impure because it should not be attached to food that is not found in our days?

    1. There is certainly room for this. I am not familiar with female physiology and therefore I do not deal with these laws.

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