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What Is Modern Orthodoxy: A Preliminary Analysis (Column 475)

ִWith God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

In column 448 I discussed the prohibition of resorting to civil courts (*arkhaot*), and used it to illustrate the *passt nisht* considerations that I presented in the preceding column (regarding the obligation to destroy idolatry). This approach to dealing with the prohibition of civil courts in our day first occurred to me in a lecture I delivered at the founding conference (which apparently also served as the burial ceremony) of the Orthodox Forum in Israel. That conference attempted to import to Israel an American phenomenon, known among the People of Israel (not the State of Israel) as “Modern Orthodoxy.” It never truly took root here, though attempts to define the phenomenon and import it continue (in recent years this has been pursued mainly by Rabbi Ido Pachter).[1] In this column I will present a conceptual analysis on the basis of which, in the next column, I will examine the question of Modern Orthodoxy.

Modern Orthodoxy in a Nutshell

In Israel, the entire non-Haredi religious public is labeled “Religious-Zionist” (or the “national-religious” public), and people mistakenly identify that ideology with Modern Orthodoxy, although there is in fact no essential connection between them. Not for nothing is the latter also called here by its American name, “modern orthodox,” for it was conceived and born there and generally remains there. This idea has not managed to take root in Israel, and to this day there is almost no public that self-identifies as such (even if in practice it indeed is). The root of it all is a lack of understanding of this idea, and in particular confusion between it and Religious Zionism on the one hand, and Reform or Conservative Judaism on the other.

Briefly put, on the other side (the *sitra achra*) of the equation stands Haredism. The term “Haredism” serves as a header for two almost independent ideas: 1) opposition to Zionism;[2] 2) opposition to modern interpretations of Halakhah (from Reform down to heretics like me). One can discern within the Haredi world groups that emphasize the opposition to Zionism and others that stress conservatism and opposition to modernity; yet, overall, the Haredi idea comprises both features together. Consequently, those who are not Haredi can oppose Haredism either because of its anti-Zionism or because of its anti-modernity, or both. The former are Religious-Zionists; the latter are Modern Orthodox; and there is also a group that is both Modern Orthodox and Zionist (that is the majority of Modern Orthodoxy, but conceptually the two are not identical).

Accordingly, we can distinguish three ideologies within the non-Haredi world: A) Those who oppose anti-Zionism but not conservatism. Sociologically this is the *Hardal* public (Haredi-national). This group is conservative regarding Halakhah like the Haredim, but fervently Zionist. B) Those who oppose conservatism but not anti-Zionism. These hold non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist views, yet decidedly espouse modern values and more flexible interpretations of Halakhah. Sociologically this includes part of the “Torah im Derekh Eretz” public and certain Haredi groups (usually unorganized and without a recognized leadership). One can add here a few individuals who drifted leftwards out of Religious Zionism (disillusioned leftist Zionists) who maintain a liberal and modern stance toward Halakhah. C) Those who oppose both. These are the Modern Religious-Zionists. Sociologically they are not identified in Israel as a distinct group (though such people do exist here), and their organized activity and leadership are found mainly in the U.S. I will not enter here into the “lite” groups and traditionalist attitudes (which nowadays some are trying to anchor conceptually as a sort of ideology). In my view they are not truly on the ideological map, but rather a collection of phenomena that lie somewhere between convenience and folklore.

Needless to say, the Haredim see all these as Reform. The *Hardal* public views the other two non-Haredi groups as Reform or “lite” (whereas toward the Haredim they feel a deep sense of inferiority).[3] To differentiate themselves from the Haredim they are far more opposed to people and groups that harm their Zionist vision than to secular Jews.[4] The attitude of Modern Orthodoxy toward the other groups is unclear. The American phenomenon is very conservative regarding Halakhah and its sources (apart from certain modern elements, they are not essentially different from the Haredim. Even general education, for many of them, is a means of livelihood and not an independent value), and it certainly does not level sharp criticism at the Haredim (though R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik did criticize Haredi opposition to Zionism in his Five Addresses). In Israel, by contrast, the few who incline toward Modern Orthodoxy do indeed criticize Haredi and *Hardal* ossification and conservatism.

An Important Methodological Note: Sociology vs. Essence

The description in the previous section was phrased in a way that appears sociological. I referred to religious groups, and naturally the divisions between them are primarily sociological. But my goal here is not sociological; it is essential. My intent is to discuss religious conceptions rather than religious groups, even though there is, of course, a link between the two planes. When I speak of a “modern” or “Haredi” stance, I intend to refer to different types of argument, not to people or groups. Distinguishing between arguments is far more important than distinguishing between people.

To sharpen this: people and groups are complex beings and not always consistent or systematic. Thus, in many cases a Reform-style or modern argument can be voiced by someone sociologically classified as Haredi, just as a conservative argument can be voiced by someone classified as Reform, Heaven forfend. The sociological labeling of people prevents us from addressing the substance of the argument, and instead we suffice with addressing the arguer (“This person is Reform/conservative, and therefore his words are not worth engaging”). Beyond the damage, it is simply true that discussion of a person’s nature is unimportant. What do I care whether So-and-so is conservative, Reform, modern, and so on? What matters is whether his arguments are correct or not, and what I can adopt or reject from them. That is truly what should concern me. Judging the person is better left to the Judge of all the earth. Therefore, when I speak here of “Reform,” “modern,” “Religious-Zionist,” “Haredi,” “Hardal,” and the like, I am distinguishing between types of arguments and modes of thinking, not between types of people and groups.

So much for the general preface touching on the broad features of Modern Orthodoxy. I now return to begin a preliminary conceptual analysis; I will return to the question of Modern Orthodoxy in the next column.

The “Swimsuit Parable”

In columns 350 and 448 I briefly mentioned the example of swimsuits, which is very dear to me, and here I will flesh it out a little for the sake of the subsequent discussion (for a fuller analysis, see my essay “Conservatism and Innovation”).[5] Imagine a group of people who, together with their fathers and their fathers’ fathers (but, of course, not their mothers), walked in the desert wearing swimsuits. At some point they arrive in a cold region and debate whether to change clothing. One group says it will not deviate from the tradition of the fathers and therefore continues to wear swimsuits despite the cold. These are certainly conservatives. A second group declares that it will switch to warm clothing. Here things are more complex, since their characterization depends on the reasoning they rely on. If they switch to warm clothing simply because they are cold, then they are deniers. But there could be a different rationale. The group that favors warm clothing can claim that the tradition to be preserved is walking with attire suited to the weather. Their fathers wore swimsuits because they lived in a hot region, but they themselves, in a cold region, should wear warm clothing. In their view, that—and only that—is how one preserves the tradition of the fathers. Clearly, the group that bases itself on such a rationale is also conservative, only the principle it preserves is different. Here I will focus on the relationship between the two conservative groups.

The first group preserves the instruction as it is, literally: one must wear swimsuits. I therefore call its approach “literal conservatism.” The second group also preserves the tradition and its directives, but it interprets those directives midrashically. It proposes to interpret the directive to wear a swimsuit through a *midrash* (I mean a rational interpretation, not *midrash* in the sense of a formal halakhic *derashah*): the intent is to wear clothing appropriate to the weather. A swimsuit was merely one application of the more general directive for a particular climate. I call this approach “midrashic conservatism.” Since this is a hypothetical example (in which the directive is not necessarily a matter of value), I ask that we ignore the fact that the midrashic conservatives’ proposal is also more convenient. That is incidental, and in the real halakhic and ethical world there are situations where midrashic conservatism yields greater stringency rather than leniency. Sometimes changed circumstances dictate stringency compared to the previous state, and still that is midrashic conservatism. Many of the halakhic stringencies that are periodically innovated are the result of innovation grounded in conservative *midrash*. Here I focus only on the logic of the argument.

Between a Midrashic Conservative and a Heretic

What distinguishes the midrashic conservative from the heretic is the existence of the conservative *midrash*. The midrashic conservative does not merely propose change. He relies on a *midrash* whose aim is to show that this change is not a change at all but an authentic continuation of the tradition under new circumstances. The heretic, by contrast, does not seek to align his position with the tradition at all, because he is not committed to it. In the essay cited above I also addressed another stance—Reform—which advocates a less than full commitment, but I will not enter that here.

There is a tendency to think that the literal conservative surely continues the tradition, whereas the midrashic conservative holds a speculative position (who says his *midrash* is correct?! Hence he is sometimes suspected of hiding convenience and interest behind his midrashic argument). But one must understand that the picture is entirely symmetric. From the standpoint of the midrashic conservative, it is the literal conservative who deviates from the tradition, for the tradition says one must wear clothing suited to the weather—and he does not do so. I once called this “criminal conservatism.”

The Conservative *Midrash*

We thus learn that the crux of the discussion is the conservative *midrash*. How does it function? We have a directive to do X. We know that the circumstances in the past were A, and now they have changed to B. We assume that the change of circumstances is relevant to the interpretation of the directive, and therefore we conclude that the directive should now be changed to Y. For example, one might argue that nowadays women should be eligible to testify (Y). Although the Sages of the Talmud disqualified them (X), the circumstances then (A) were such that women were not involved in commerce and the world at large and did not acquire general education, as they stayed at home and engaged in domestic crafts. Today the circumstances have changed (B), since women participate in all realms of life. Therefore they should now be eligible to testify (Y). This is the archetype of an argument proposing a change in Halakhah or in any normative system.

Set out systematically, this pattern of argument looks like this:

Premise A (normative): There exists a directive X that was formulated in the past.

Premise B (factual): The circumstances that prevailed in the past were A.

Premise C (factual): The circumstances today are B.

Conclusion: The directive should now be changed to Y.

Such an argument is not valid. One can easily see this by examining its structure. All its premises are factual while the conclusion is normative. An argument of this form cannot be valid, for it derives an “ought” from an “is” (what is often called “the naturalistic fallacy”). Note that although Premise A appears normative, its normative aspect is irrelevant to the argument—that is, the derivation of the conclusion does not hinge on it. To see this, we can present the same argument slightly differently:

Premise A (factual): The circumstances that prevailed in the past were A.

Premise B (factual): The circumstances today are B.

Conclusion: The directive should be changed from X to Y.

Here the premises are purely factual. What is missing? Any argument that suffers from the naturalistic fallacy can be completed by adding a bridge-premise—that is, a premise that connects the factual plane to the normative plane. In our case we can add the following premise:

Premise C: The directive X derives from the circumstances A (that is, in circumstances B it is not relevant).

In the example above, the missing premise is that women’s disqualification as witnesses stemmed from their lack of familiarity with commerce and society. This is the claim of a midrashic conservative, for he is proposing a change in the system of directives that rests on a *midrash*, namely a different interpretation of the directives. In our example the midrashic conservative suggests that the Sages did not disqualify women as such, but rather disqualified groups that are not involved in the life of society and commerce. A change in the application of the directive in our day therefore follows.

The literal conservative, of course, rejects this out of hand. In his view the directive must be observed as it stands without subjecting it to *midrashim*. This does not mean he thinks there is no rationale behind the directive. On the contrary, most conservatives accept that halakhic directives have logic and reason at their base, but in their view one must not take that into account when interpreting and observing the directives.

This leads us to understand why the bridge-premise is so crucial in this discussion, and why ignoring it empties the discussion of content. In most cases the debate about change revolves precisely around it. I assume that most of us would agree that there has in fact been a change of circumstances regarding women’s status and occupations between antiquity and our day. And yet a sober literal conservative—one who accepts the two factual premises—disputes the conclusion. How so? He simply does not accept the bridge-premise. In his view there is no reason to assume that the disqualification of women results from lack of acquaintance with society or lack of education. In minimal terms: the burden of proof that this is so lies on the midrashic conservative. There is also a broader formulation that views the commandments as directives disconnected from reason (having no rational basis), but that is a very odd position (especially when dealing with the Sages’ learning of a *midrash* or an interpretation of a verse, which clearly rests on their reason), and therefore I will not address it here.

Note that in the minimalist formulation the literal conservative concedes something. He too agrees that if I bring proof for this change, the directive should be altered. But, he claims, one must bring proof, and in the absence of proof the accepted interpretation remains in place, akin to a presumption based on the prior state (*chazakah de-me’ikara*) or the rule that doubt does not override certainty. I will return to this point below.

An Example: The Presumption “A Person Does Not Repay Before Its Time”[6]

To sharpen further the structure of the midrashic argument and the assumptions it makes about Halakhah, I will discuss a neutral halakhic topic (one that does not arouse overly strong conservative emotions): “There is a presumption that a person does not repay before its time.” The Talmud (Bava Batra 5a) establishes a presumption that a person does not repay a debt before the final due date. He prefers to hold onto the money as long as he can. Hence the rule: if Reuven sues Shimon to pay a debt, and the suit is filed a week after the loan, and Shimon claims he already repaid—he is not believed. The loan was given for thirty days, and it is unlikely he repaid within a week. Of course, if he brings evidence he will be believed, but by default the burden of proof rests on him. Note that the one holding the money is Shimon, the borrower (the lender wants him to pay), i.e., this rule runs counter to the general rule that “the burden of proof lies with the extractor.” Perhaps one can say that this very presumption constitutes the plaintiff’s evidence that extracts the money from the borrower.

Let us now suppose the reality has changed, and for one reason or another people do repay before the due date. Does this sugya become a dead letter? Can we erase it from the Talmud? Certainly not. This sugya was not written to teach about people’s customs and psychology. Those are factual questions, and as such one must form positions about them by observing reality, not by studying the Talmud and its commentators. The Talmud comes to teach norms; in this case it teaches that if there is a presumption, it can shift the balance of power between plaintiff and possessor and transfer the burden of proof. Which presumption exists in reality is a factual question that can also change over time, across places and circumstances. The lesson of this sugya is to teach the normative principle, not the facts. For our purposes, the sugya’s conclusion is not, as the literal conservative understands, that a person is not believed to claim repayment before the due date. The sugya’s conclusion is the result of a *midrash*: a person is not believed to claim something that runs counter to a presumption. What is the presumption? That is a factual question about circumstances.

What Is Halakhah?

In fact, the conclusion from this analysis is much broader. Factual determinations are never Torah. More than that: Halakhah is not even simple normative determinations such as “a person is not believed to claim repayment before the due date.” Halakhah is a set of bridge-principles that deal with aligning facts and the norms derived from them. In this case: if there is a presumption X, then a defendant who claims “not-X” bears the burden of proof (despite being the possessor). This is exactly parallel to the determination that one must wear clothing suited to the weather, rather than “one must wear a swimsuit.” The practical outcome—what to do in practice—is the application of the bridge-principle to the current circumstances (and not to those that prevailed once upon a time).

We can describe it thus: generally speaking, Halakhah concerns itself with attaching a normative directive to given factual circumstances. This attachment rests on bridge-principles that carry me from the circumstances to the directive. But Halakhah is not the directive, and certainly not the circumstances themselves. Halakhah is the principle that carries me from the one to the other. One can liken this to logic. When we infer a conclusion from premises, logic does not concern itself with the premises or the conclusion. It concerns itself with the derivation of the conclusion from the premises, which is precisely analogous to the bridge-principles. Let me illustrate with a hackneyed example. Consider an argument that assumes that all humans are mortal and that Socrates is a human, and derives from these that Socrates is mortal. Which element is the province of logic? Neither the premises nor the conclusion. Logic concerns itself with the bridge-rule that carries us from the premises to the conclusion: if all X are Y and a is X, then a is Y. Logic deals with the structure of the argument, not its content.

In the same measure, Halakhah concerns itself with the structure of thought—not with the circumstances and not with the halakhic bottom line (the normative outcomes). Thus, for example, according to the conservative *midrash*, Halakhah does not disqualify women as witnesses; rather, it says that if there is a group lacking familiarity with the world and with various fields of knowledge, that group is disqualified from testimony. Which group is that, and how do we identify it? That is answered by observing reality, not by studying the Talmud. That is not Halakhah’s concern. The determination that disqualifies women is not Halakhah, nor are the factual determinations (about the nature of women). Halakhah focuses solely on the bridge-principle. Consequently, the principle of the eternity of Halakhah pertains only to the bridge-principles, not to the facts and not to the normative conclusion.

Up to this point the analysis seems sound and reasonable. The presumption that one does not repay before the due date is comprehensible, and any sensible halakhist will supply it with an appropriate conservative *midrash*. I find it hard to imagine a court that would obligate someone who claims to have repaid early in circumstances where people customarily do repay early. But with other examples, like qualifying women for testimony, I assume that some readers feel uneasy. Likewise, regarding presumptions such as “ṭav le-meitav tan du” (that a woman prefers to be married rather than single), which have far-reaching implications for women in rabbinic courts—most decisors will not operate with midrashic conservatism. I see no essential difference between the cases, for the logic in all of them is that of a conservative *midrash*. It is true that in the presumption about not repaying early, the *midrash* lies more on the surface and seems self-evident. But that is purely technical. Even in “ṭav le-meitav” the *midrash* lies on the surface: there is a factual claim that women want partnership at any price. One can simply check whether that is indeed today’s reality. Although the *midrash* here is entirely obvious and legitimate, most decisors oppose using it. Here one can no longer claim that the *midrash* is not self-evident. The problem is more sociological (fear of liberals who espouse women’s equality: the envoys of the New Israel Fund, the LGBTQ community, and the Elders of the International Left).

This brings me to the question of where and how to apply the conservative *midrash*, and what to do when we lack such a *midrash*.

More on the Conservative *Midrash*

Let us return to the example of women’s disqualification as witnesses. We saw that the focal point is the bridge-principle, and the midrashic proposal is that Halakhah does not disqualify women but rather groups lacking familiarity with the world and various fields of knowledge. The literal conservative, of course, objects. He can base his objection on several kinds of counter-arguments: 1) Denying the facts: the Sages and the Torah knew women’s nature well, and therefore it clearly has not changed (“You are living under factual brainwashing”). 2) Rejecting the possibility of value-based change: “This Torah shall not be exchanged.” The rule does not depend on women’s nature; changing their status undermines the principle of the eternity of the Torah (“You are brainwashed by liberalism”). 3) *Ta‘ama de-kra*: even if that rationale is correct, in Halakhah we do not interpret laws by their reasons (especially purposive interpretation). 4) Limited midrashic conservatism: the burden of proof is on you. You have not proven that the disqualification of women is grounded in lack of education/acquaintance with the world. The last argument acknowledges the possibility of conservative *midrashim* but demands that their proponent furnish evidence that they are correct.

In the discussion here I will ignore denial of the facts, since that is simply ignoring reality. I will also ignore the claim that laws have no reasons, if only because this law is the result of a *derashah* and not something explicitly written in the Torah. A *midrash* by definition rests on the reason of the *darshan*. For the same reason I will not relate to the claim about the eternity of the Torah, for eternity pertains to the bridge-principles and not to the bottom lines. I will also ignore here the claim that this is *ta‘ama de-kra*. The rule that we do not interpret laws by their reasons was said only about laws written explicitly, not about laws derived from *derashot*, since there, as noted, the rationale is always in the background.

We are left with the last problem: such conservative *midrashim* can be proposed by the dozen, and there is no way to critique them. All of Halakhah could thus be emptied of content, since one could always offer an ungrounded conservative *midrash* and change it. Shabbat was instituted for those who worked hard, and today people do not work hard. The prohibition of pork came from Jebusite influence and today its rationale no longer applies, and so forth. It is important to distinguish here between the “slippery slope” claim—that is, the fear of baseless *midrashim* that will uproot Halakhah—and the substantive claim that raises the slippery slope only as an indicator (see column 429 on the types of slippery-slope arguments). The former is, in my view, irrelevant. I am dealing with whether the midrashic interpretation is correct. Fears about where it will lead are legitimate considerations, but second-order ones (and we also have no authority to reject a correct interpretation on the basis of such considerations. That would be legislation, and we have no Sanhedrin empowered to legislate). In general, I will only say that for my part there is no limit to such considerations. Even if the entire Halakhah were to change and our slope became a skating rink—if that is truly the correct interpretation, then indeed everything should change. There is no need to fear changes if they are correct. Despite the understandable fears, I am unwilling to set an a priori limit on the use of conservative *midrash*. I am willing to accept local ordinances or decrees that arise from a specific concern, but that too is possible only if done by a competent body (a Sanhedrin, or perhaps the consensus of all the sages of the generation).

Having rejected most of the literal conservative’s counter-arguments and the slippery-slope claim, I will address here only the last claim in its second, substantive form: that without foundation and evidence from the sources one cannot assume the proposed *midrash* is correct. Seemingly such a *midrash* is mere speculation. Before I answer, note that this claim means that in order to confront the literal conservative’s objection, the midrashic conservative must clear two hurdles and in fact present two levels of *midrash*: at the first level he must propose a midrashic interpretation of the directive at hand (one must wear clothing suited to the weather; disqualification from testimony applies to a group lacking familiarity/education, etc.). At the second level he must offer support for the first-level *midrash*. He must bring evidence from halakhic/traditional sources that women’s disqualification indeed stems from lack of familiarity/education, or that the directive to wear swimsuits is indeed due to climate-appropriateness.

My answer to this objection (the second level) is rather brief. Even in the absence of grounding in the sources, I accept a conservative *midrash* by virtue of its internal logic. If we consider the proposal to qualify women for testimony, and suppose for the sake of discussion that we did not find authoritative sources that would decide whether the disqualification stems from deficiencies in women or whether it is a law grounded in some unknown rationale—still we face two possibilities: A) assume we have before us a law with an unknown rationale; B) assume we have a comprehensible law grounded in female characteristics. Even without proof and source that ground it, option B is the more rational. There is no reason to reject a reasonable interpretation on the claim that perhaps there is some unknown alternative that we do not recognize. This is simple sevara, and of course one can bolster it with halakhic principles (which themselves emerged from common sense, not from verses): a judge has only what his eyes see; doubt does not override certainty. Nowhere have I seen a proposal for a reasonable explanation of some law rejected merely because perhaps there is some other unknown explanation—without the rejector adducing any proof for his words. There is no logic in that.[7]

Note, too, that even the Meiri, in his proposal to change our attitude toward gentiles (because in our day they are “bound by the civilized norms of nations,” i.e., behave in a reasonably humane way—see about this here), brought no sources that support his conservative *midrash*. And indeed he (and essentially I, who follow him—see the beginning of column 74) stokes the anger of literal conservatives precisely because a conservative *midrash* is being proposed here without foundation in the sources. My answer to them is that while it would be good if such a foundation could be found, in its absence the very logic gives this proposal the edge, and the burden of proof lies on the literal conservatives. One can, of course, debate the facts and claim that gentiles today are exactly as they once were—and there are not a few who do so (ignoring or denying reality are common tactics among our literal conservative cousins)—but there is no room for the claim against the very method of conservative *midrash*.

I will go further. There is a very intuitive sense that the burden of proof should fall on the midrashic conservative, since he is the one proposing to change the status quo. I accept this in principle, but once he proposes a reasonable interpretation and the literal conservative does not point to a flaw nor offer an alternative explanation, in my view the burden has been met. Now the burden shifts to him. If we return to the swimsuit example, we can present this more sharply: from the perspective of the midrashic conservative, it is the literal conservative who comes to change the past practice (for our forefathers walked wearing clothing suited to the weather, and he proposes to change that). On that view, the presumption favors the midrashic conservative and not the literal conservative. So too with qualifying women to testify and other topics. Thus, for each side, the picture of the presumption looks different, and the feeling that the burden lies on the midrashic conservative because there is a presumption favoring the literal conservative is incorrect: it tacitly assumes the literal conservative’s approach. From another angle, one can say that it is reality that has changed compared to the past (women’s nature, or the climate), not Halakhah. And indeed, regarding reality one can certainly say that we are overturning a presumption—but regarding reality there is no dispute that it has in fact changed. The dispute concerns only the halakhic implications of that change, and regarding those there is no agreed presumption.

One more remark. The common feeling is that literal preservation is the safe route and comes at no cost. Hence the midrashic conservative is at a disadvantage and the burden should be imposed on him. But this is a mistake. One must understand that literal conservatism also has a heavy price. If there is a murder or theft case for which we have only female witnesses, and we disqualify them because of literal conservatism, the price is a miscarriage of justice and sometimes danger to the public. I have already noted that from the standpoint of the midrashic conservative, the literal conservative is a criminal (“criminal conservatism”), for he acts against Halakhah. Here we see that this conservative crime carries a very heavy cost—no less, and perhaps greater, than the price of midrashic conservatism in the literal conservative’s eyes. In short, there is full symmetry between the two approaches, and the sense of asymmetry stems from (sometimes unconscious) adoption of literal conservatism. This, by the way, is one of many examples of the harm caused by conservatism, which I discussed in the past (see column 249 and, in response, column 444).[8]

In short, my claim is that a conservative *midrash* should be evaluated by its internal logic. It is easiest to reject all *midrashim* out of hand and without argument—merely by claiming they lack foundation and that accepting them enables turning all of Halakhah on its head and emptying it of content—or by invoking presumptions (*chazakah de-me’ikara*, “the status quo”). But that is unjustified hysteria. The logic underlying the *midrash* about women’s disqualification from testimony is entirely reasonable (even if not as compelling as in the presumption about not repaying early). It is not a detached proposal. Detached proposals do not pass the test at the first level, since they lack a midrashic interpretation, even before the question of proof and foundation. A midrashic interpretation, by definition, passes the first level; therefore the discussion should be only about the second level (what evidence supports it).

In the next columns we will see further examples that will clarify and sharpen the matter.

Sociological Identification

I wrote that I am not dealing here with the sociological identification and characterization of the various groups but with a classification of types of argument. Still, to sharpen the meaning of these characterizations, I must resort a bit to sociology. Literal conservatism characterizes the Haredi ethos. A Haredi person lives with the consciousness that what he does was given to Moses at Sinai and that so it has been practiced through all generations. The foundational principle of Haredism is the prohibition to deviate from the customs of our forefathers (who, as is known, did not change their language, dress, etc.; as is well known, Moses spoke Yiddish and wore a frock coat and gartel). Sober Haredim, of course, know that things developed (including Halakhah, not only customs). Still, the ethos that shapes them is literal conservatism: everything, absolutely everything, was given to Moses at Sinai. My uncle used to say that Abaye and Rava studied in Yiddish (for they knew how to learn, and they were not *Mizrachi-niks*. Whoever knows how to learn surely learns in Yiddish). He of course knows that this is not literally how it was, but his relation to that ethos is entirely serious.

I do not know how such a sober literal conservative reconciles the facts with the ethos. Perhaps he means that if they were alive today, they would study in Yiddish. But he will in all seriousness repeat the dicta of the Sages that everything a veteran student is destined to innovate was given to Moses at Sinai; its generalities and particulars are from Sinai; and so forth—together with solid familiarity with sugyot in which laws were innovated on the Sages’ own reasoning, or in which opinions dispute various laws, and so on.[9] Moreover, we saw above that in many important cases literal conservatives do engage in conservative *midrash*, as in the presumption about not repaying early. The battles rage over contentious topics tied to modern values, such as the status of women and of the gentile (such as the “ṭav le-meitav” presumption), and not always because of the weakness of the conservative *midrash*.[10]

We are approaching our subject. I will only note that the midrashic conservative is the Modern Orthodox Jew. He preserves the tradition but interprets it in accordance with the circumstances. The fundamentalist literal conservative is unaware that his own Torah has undergone changes and adaptations. He denies that there were any changes and truly lives with the feeling that Moses and Abraham wore black frock coats and prayed the Amidah. True, we saw that the sober literal conservative does accept conservative *midrashim* (as in the presumption about not repaying early). The difference between him and the midrashic conservative lies mainly in the ethos, not in actual conduct. There are differences of degree, of course, but in principle both views accept the legitimacy of conservative *midrashim*. Most types of literal conservatives, when reacting to a conservative *midrash*, treat it as Reform and accuse it of deviating from the directives. They ostensibly do not recognize, in principle, the legitimacy of conservative *midrashim*. The literal conservative—even the sober one—truly lives the ethos, and in his view every such change is an injury to the Torah given at Sinai. Naturally, he usually does not give himself an accounting of the changes that the Halakhah he upholds has undergone (though some are aware of them), and certainly does not set criteria that would distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate changes (in the sixth part of my book Between the Standing I propose a map of the theory of halakhic change, and in my view it is entirely legitimate from the standpoint of the traditional conception of Halakhah, though perhaps not from the standpoint of the Orthodox conception of Halakhah).[11]

Up to here I have presented the conceptual system and principles. We must now bring them down to earth and use them to examine the ideas of Modern Orthodoxy and the disputes surrounding it.

[1] See, for example, a review here of his book Judaism on a Spectrum.

[2] On this point I will remain vague, because in my view support for or opposition to Zionism are empty ideas. They have no practical meaning apart from a single blessing on one day of the year. For me, Zionism and anti-Zionism are sentiment, not a conception. But for the sake of the discussion I cleave here to the way people define themselves. My chief concern in this column is with the second component (modernity), not with Zionism.

[3] And justifiably so, from their perspective, since the Haredim are better than they are: more insular, more conservative, more proficient in Shas and its commentators, more devoted to pure study, and more abstinent from secular studies.

[4] For the *Hardal* public, being a religious leftist or liberal is far worse than being a right-winger who devours non-kosher meat and violates the laws of family purity (or a “Zionist,” in their narrow understanding of that term). All these, as is known, are the agents of the New Israel Fund, the LGBTQ community, and the European Union—those responsible for the protocols of the Council of Elders of the Left. A contemporary example: see the report here that Yeshivat Mercaz HaRav would not invite Prime Minister Bennett that year to the Jerusalem Day celebrations, even though they used to invite every secular prime minister before him, and of course also presidents of the state and chiefs of staff across the generations (all of whom are, as is well known, pious men). I presume that, in their eyes, a religious prime minister who cooperates with leftists (and also opposes *Hardal* dictates) is worse than the leftists themselves. That item reminded me of a decision by the journal Tzohar. While editing one of my articles I was astonished to discover that they decided to write “Prof. L.” instead of “Prof. Leibowitz,” no less. When I asked, they explained that this was the instruction of R. Tzvi Yehuda: do not mention the wicked by name. I asked why they did not change Ben-Gurion (who also appeared in that article)—a champion pursuer of religion and religious Jews—to “B.G.”, and they explained to me, quite reasonably, that “L.” was much worse than “B.G.” Happy are you, Israel—the “national” ones and the “general” ones who grasp the mantle of “generality,” while shrinking it to those made in their own image, holding by the trait of “general-particular-general.” They appear to me similar to those liberals who are very open and tolerant toward the whole range of opinions—so long as they are their own opinions.

[5] And more comprehensively in the lecture series available here.

[6] For a detailed discussion of the example and of the structure of the conservative argument and its assumptions generally, see my lecture here.

[7] True, in several places we find: “Shall we act merely because we are imagining?” But since, in my view, that stance is irrational, we must interpret all those places as ones where there was good reason to doubt the proposed interpretation, or where it is reasonable that the relevant reality did not change; and if the existing law differs, then the burden of proof lies on whoever comes to change it.

[8] Innovation also has downsides, of course, but people find those self-evident (conservatives point to them constantly). Hence I focused here on the other side. Note, however, that here too there is no symmetry: when an innovator proposes an idea that has advantages, if the conservative raises only the claim that this deviates from the accepted (the wisdom of the generations, etc.), the conservative is at a disadvantage. The innovator points to advantages in his proposal while the conservative suffices with raising a doubt—precisely as I argued above.

[9] A nice example is the tradition that one does not derive a *gezerah shavah* on one’s own unless received from one’s teacher. The Ramban and his students already noted that this cannot be correct, for we often find disputes about *gezerot shavot* (see the *Encyclopedia Talmudit* under “Gezerah Shavah”).

[10] Regarding the attitude toward the gentile, see my essay “A Gentile Whom Halakhah Did Not Recognize”, my essay “Is There Enlightened Idolatry? On Attitudes Toward Gentiles”, and in greater detail chapter 36 of my book Between the Standing.

[11] As is known, Orthodoxy is a kind of ideology, and as such it is in essence a modern phenomenon.

142 תגובות

  1. Note 7
    The language itself shows that your claim is correct.
    Because we ‘imagine’ do something.
    ‘imagine’ meaning think but are unsure whether the direction is right.
    This is of course very different from a formulation such as: And because they were convinced, do something?

    The difference in language is clear.

    This time, the column is in order

  2. R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach stood in the courtroom and declared with pathos:
    Mashiach Vet Komen (Messiah will come)
    And the first thing he will do is accept the testimony of women.

    There was a group of people there. I knew 2 of them.
    They grew to be great Torah scholars and today serve in important positions in programs.
    1 of them became a liberal Tahsildar (R’l)
    And the 2nd Tahsildar emerged as a fierce fanatic…

    The liberal Tahsildar told me what the 2 had heard from R’ Shlomo Zalman.
    I enjoyed it.
    I approached the fanatic Tahsildar and asked him if the things were true?
    (He couldn't deny it, either because he was honest, or because he knew I knew) and he responded to me on the website by shouting (as usual) I heard there ‘not now’

  3. I assume that R’ S.Z. Auerbach meant when the Sanhedrin was formed.
    And not specifically a statement that the Messiah would come. (And he is only a Yerushalmi rabbi and not a rabbi)
    And that what is his authority without the Sanhedrin to change the law?
    And why does the Sanhedrin need the Messiah to enact laws and change them?
    (And perhaps he believed that this would probably happen in the mutual agreement?)

    This seems to me similar to what I heard from one of the great poskim of the day, that the first thing the Sanhedrin would do is to cancel 7 clean ones.
    (Of course, there is no need for the Sanhedrin and any rabbi today who sees a great need can order the waiving of 7 clean ones for a specific couple for some time, and Pook Chezi May says nothing)

    And it seems to me that he disagrees with R”Z with this, what is the first thing the Sanhedrin would do?

    1. Apparently, training women to testify is essential to the resolution and severity of the law of clean marriage, since its foundation is in the daughters of Israel who were stricter on themselves. It will only be possible to repeal it in a court where the daughters of Israel sit 🙂

      In practice, with regard to women's testimony, it is customary in rabbinical courts to accept their testimony when it is impossible without it, relying on the ancient rule cited in the Rambam to accept a woman's testimony where there are no men present (a rule that has a basis in the GK regarding midwifery fidelity regarding the identity of the newborn). An issue that cannot be regulated is the testimony of kiddushin and gettin, in which the validity of the Torah depends on the Torah's training codes.

      The severity of the "seven clean days" is based on the loss of the ability to distinguish between a pure red appearance and the blood of defilement, because of which one does not know whether the woman is in the "days of separation" or in the days of gonorrhea. When the court is built, the ability to distinguish will need to be renewed, because every woman will need to know exactly whether she is in the "days of separation" that require a sacrifice or in the days of separation that do not require a sacrifice.

      With blessings, Yafa'ar

      The explanation that women do not testify because they are not in the business of the business and therefore are not accurate is stated in the Book of Education (and based on the authority of Rabbi Uziel to allow women's testimony in our day), but in Toss It is explained that the disqualification of women from testifying is a "scriptural decree", since a woman is faithful even in the severe prohibition of divorce, and therefore the poskim prefer the direction of the "regulation".

      1. Paragraph 2, line 4
        … in which the application depends on the evidence of training from the Torah.

        Paragraph 4, line 1
        … because they are not in business matters…

      2. In the context of the honor of the nations of the world today, among some of the ’religious’ In our generation there are phenomena of murderous fanaticism, and cruel oppression exists even on non-religious grounds (e.g. China and North Korea). Billions are literally idolaters, and even in the West, there are many who are ‘collaborative idolaters’ or atheists, and in the area of fornication – modernity has brought about a great drift in things that were previously ‘outside the realm’.

        What perhaps needs to be strengthened in our day are the practices that the sages also recommended, to treat even the idolaters of their time in ways that are fair and honest, that include sanctification of the name of God and ’ways of peace’. And especially in our generation, when the influence of Christianity has weakened and there is increasing interest in Judaism and a willingness to approach it as ’the children of Noah’ – Even if most of us are not supposed to engage in bringing them closer – we are not exempt from following the sages and the sages of the generations and treating non-Jews with fairness and honesty.

        With greetings, Ya'far

        1. In the 23rd century BC, the Gentiles were not particularly ‘nice’ at the time and in the place of the Enlightener, the Gentiles were not particularly ‘nice’. Not towards the Jews who were ’deserving’of bloodshed, riots, and expulsions due to hatred of the Gentiles. Even towards groups of Christians who deviated from the path of the Church, the treatment was extremely cruel.

          In the place of the Enlightener, in Languedoc, the Catholic Church waged a cruel ‘crusade’ against the Albigenses who came out against the corruption and signs of paganism in Christianity, and those who were not destroyed were persecuted to the point of excommunication by the Inquisition that was established at that time to eliminate the ‘Albignese heresy’.

          The same Inquisition began to spread its hands among the Jews as well, and due to various denunciations, the Inquisition began to rummage through Jewish books as well, and thus the Talmud books were burned in Paris and the Maimonides books in Provence. So the option cannot be ruled out that the words of the Meiri about the Gentiles, who were "bound by religion and manners," were spoken out of fear of the Inquisition.

          It is also possible that the words were spoken specifically about the persecuted Albigenses, who truly stood on a high moral level in relation to their persecutors. And the inclusive wording disguised the true intention.

          With greetings, Yiftach Kadmoni Buch-Treger

          1. Paragraph 1, line 1
            … And in place of the Meiri, …

            Ibid., line 3
            … Who deviated from the path of the church. …

          2. A summary of the latter methods can be found in the article: ‘Darshani: The Meiri Method in Relation to Christianity’, on the ‘WikiShiva’ website).

            Best regards, Yip B”r

  4. Footnote, in the past I have seen that the Meiri does provide a basis for his conservative midrash on circumcised gentiles. The Gemara says, “See, a nation that does not observe the seven commandments of the sons of Noah stood and permitted their wealth to Israel.” And the Meiri says, “If they observe them, then their wealth is not permitted.”

    1. As I explained in my article, the Gentiles at the time also did not keep the Seven Commandments. They violated at least seven, since they were Catholics. The Meiri usually follows the Maimonides, who saw them as apostates, and therefore I argued there that he also probably agrees with this. His argument is that despite this, the attitude towards them should be changed. And this clearly explains his attitude towards their objects of worship.

      1. The first source in Meiri cited in the article there is Bava Kama 37:2, and in the article you summarize it as follows: “On the issue of Bava Kama 37:2, he proves from the midrash that appears in the Gemara (ibid., 38:1), that the prohibition of theft was permitted only because the Gentiles did not accept the seven commandments of the sons of Noah upon themselves, and hence it does not reflect an essential attitude towards every Gentile. From this he apparently concludes that the law for those who are bound by religious and moral principles is different”. [Meiri's language: “And according to what is said in the Gemara, precisely among the peoples who are not bound by religious and moral principles, as he said about them in the Gemara, he saw that the seven commandments that the sons of Noah accepted upon themselves, which they did not fulfill, stood and permitted their wealth whenever the law required them to do so. Now, all those who have the seven commandments are our law, and we do not take sides in our law. And from now on, there is no need to say that in the nations that are bounded by religions and manners”.]. If so, Meiri makes it clear that he does provide a basis for his conservative midrash. Perhaps the matter of idolatry is a question (and should be settled), but Meiri's words are clear. Isn't that so?

        And by the way, I don't understand why you assume there that idolatry is specifically related to the permissibility of their wealth. If what is meant is that it is one of the seven commandments of the Noahide people and one transgression is enough to permit their wealth, then it is not necessary. It is possible that the wealth of only those who nullify all or most of the seven commandments is permitted, but if they observe the seven commandments and practice idolatry, their wealth is not permitted.

        1. This is a second-order Conservative midrash. The Gamma attaches it to the Seven Commandments, and the Meiri extends it to groups that are morally reasonable. Going beyond the עז (not sporadically. Living religiously of the עז) cannot be considered fulfillment of the Seven Commandments. This is absurd.

          1. Who said that one must keep all seven commandments? The Gemara only says this about someone who does not keep all seven commandments (it can be interpreted that he does not “keep all the commandments” and that it is enough to cancel one of them to allow him to be disobeyed. Or it can be interpreted that he “does not keep” all seven commandments and that all or most of them must be canceled to allow him to be disobeyed).

            1. It's possible, but very unlikely. Both on its merits and because I assume that throughout history there have been many who have fulfilled some of the seven.

  5. 'אורתודוקסיה מודרנית' ו''אורתודוקסיה פתוחה' says:

    In the 17th of Iyar, 5722,

    Establishments that certain details in halakha change due to changes in reality, since the principle underlying halakha requires a reverse implementation due to a change in invention, also exist in Haredi jurisprudence.

    For example, the rabbi ruled that in our time there is no practice of the law of ‘Moridin and no Maalin’ both because in our time there is a strong group of ‘serpents who were captured’ among those who do not believe, and because today harming them will only lead to strengthening apostasy. For example, the rabbi Elyashiv ruled that in our time there is no ‘hour of pressure’ on which some of the great men at the beginning of the Yishuv relied to activate the ‘sale permit’

    The question is always whether this is really a real change in reality, and whether it creates a change in halakhah. The discussions on this have accompanied the world of halakhah since the beginning of the modern period. In some of them a positive conclusion was given, in some it was determined that there was no room for change, and these discussions do not distinguish between ‘Modern Orthodoxy’ in the United States” or its counterpart ‘Religious Zionism’ in Israel.

    This was discussed by Rabbi Soloveitchik and Rabbi Feihstein in the US, and by Rabbi Kook and Rabbi Uziel, Rabbi Herzog and Rabbi Yosef, Rabbi Goren, an Israeli emigrant, Rabbi Elyashiv and Rabbi Auerbach in Israel, and the discussion is first and foremost halakhic, and does not necessarily depend on the relationship to Zionism and modernity.

    The concept of "modern Orthodoxy" is related to Yeshiva University, the OU organization, and the Rabbinical Federation of America. (RCA), alongside which in recent years a movement has been established that calls itself ‘Open Orthodoxy’, incorporated into the IRF founded by Rabbis Avi Weiss and Mark Engel, who facilitate some things such as the ordination of women to the rabbinate, etc. If Ramda”a and his ilk wish to call themselves –, they would be better off choosing the name ‘Open Orthodoxy’.

    Best regards, Yaron Fish”l Ordner

    1. Chen Chen. You are repeating my words here with examples. There are of course many more. As for there, I have no interest in nicknames and names or hands.

      1. And the question that arises regarding the ‘conservative midrash’: Is the reader absolutely committed to the Torah and the Sages, and convinced that his interpretation will confirm the view of the Torah and the Sages, or is his world of faith and values an ‘ellipse’, of which the Torah is only one of its centers, but there is also a central position for perceptions external to the Torah, to which the Torah must be ‘adapted’.

        With greetings, Yaffo’r

        The first approach can also assume that values emphasized in the modern perception – have long existed and have existed in the perception of the Torah, but with the appropriate restrictions and dosages, and in accordance with the foundation of those values in the Torahic sources. For example, the value of equality is anchored in the determination that "dina demalchuta" is valid only in a law that is equal for all, as Maimonides says in Hala Gazila, chapter 11. However, on the other hand, the value of equality is limited in all the distinctions made by the Torah between Israel and the nations, between women and priests and the rest of the people.

        1. One of the reasons to doubt the sincerity of the claims about the need to ‘adapt the halacha to reality’, stems from the fact that all the ’adaptations’ are only for the voice. In our time, we have not heard anyone who suggested making the halacha more strict because reality requires ‘to define a word” 🙂

          With greetings, Yafa”r

          1. This is typical conservative demagogy. Conservatives always choose irrelevant arguments, and when they don't have an answer, they engage in arguments about the person rather than the issue. The sincerity of the claims is not the issue here. Even if the claims are not sincere, they should still be discussed on their merits. If they are true, then they are true, even if I just want a comfortable life.
            But if you still want to, then here are some examples: For example, in my opinion, killing a louse on Shabbat should be made stricter and prohibited. It should be made stricter in accepting women as witnesses (the stricter prohibition on theft that would result from not accepting them), they should be required to study Torah, they should be made stricter in preventing aginut, they should be made stricter in receiving state benefits without need, they should be made stricter in requiring general education and vocational training, and so on. But since I am not going into specific discussions in this column, but only a conceptual analysis, this is not the place.

            1. Claims that the matter is not funded. Why not require donations and tithes of industrial products, since this is the bulk of the human surplus today?

              1. Do you mean the bulk of human production? It is certainly possible, although in your opinion it is not clear why these are commandments that depend on the land. It seems that there is still a connection to the land.

              2. They vowed that the example of a crop is not because of the soil but rather because of the sparseness of this main human being that was then

            2. If the rabbi mentioned the issue of lice on Shabbat. For the answer, the main reason for the permission that the conservative view takes is another matter of leaz on the Rishonim, which is an interpretation that also touches on the past and then it turns out that they did not act according to the truth. The rabbi did not touch on this aspect of the Midrashic conservative compared to the Pashto conservative. This is a completely different level that seems to me to indicate a fundamental difference in approach that is not only related to the manner of the Midrash but to an attempt to present a stable picture that is not subject to change, from Sinai to the end of days.
              This is further exacerbated by the fact that the latter who try to deal with this law come up with very difficult proposals. The letter from Elihu states that all the laws with their details were handed down from Sinai and the Sages only offer the possibility of a reason and if it turns out that the reason is invalid, you just have to find another reason but the law has not changed in any sense.
              The rabbi touched on this a little during the article, but it is really difficult for me to understand it. How does the rabbi understand the lack of coherence in the approach of the Pashto conservatives? After all, they themselves admit that there are changes.

              1. I have no explanation other than understandable fear. But fear is not a reason to permit prohibitions and prohibit something that is permitted. Only a qualified rabbi can renew or repeal laws. To permit the killing of a louse on Shabbat is to permit the prohibition of stoning. Fear is not a relevant reason, but a psychological one.

          2. Thus, Rabbi Kook raised the argument that when the Sanhedrin is established, it will renew the decree on cars, which can cause road accidents, and the incidence of these dangers is more than one in seven years 🙂

            With greetings, Faybish Lipa Sosnowitzki-Dehari

            1. And regarding the ‘Parable of the Savage Tribe’ – The ‘Savages’ Danan left behind an extensive literature, in which the ‘sages of the tribe’ clarified for their generations the tastes and boundaries of their ‘strange customs’. This literature is full of discussions about the boundaries of the ‘garment’. And by virtue of the changes that the ‘tribe’went through, as it migrated between different countries, periods, and cultures– these discussions were numerous. Even for ’modern’ The tribe has been exposed for about two hundred years, and the books of the Chief Rabbis are full of such discussions. So what do you think, if there is a real reason for the change, the wise men of the tribe have already discussed it in recent generations and decided whether to accept it or reject it, and there is no point in recycling what has been seen and rejected.

              With greetings, the noble savage, Abu Shamil

              1. And returning to the parable, can you present what you found from the discussions that the books are full of, what is the lost reason for the simplistic conservatism that women are unfit to testify?

              2. No. I don't think the literature is really full of this (although I don't deal with this literature). The reasons are usually found in the Gothic texts, not in the Halakhic ones. Zel will probably be able to collect them like Amir Gurna. He already mentioned that education says the same as I do. Some are hung up on their light-heartedness (what is it?), and others on the dignity of a royal daughter inwardly. Fears of mixing with men. And others treat it as a joke without a reason.

              3. In the words of the Lord, Omer, the Lord of the Worlds

                Lt.G. – Motzaei L–G’, happy and pleased,

                Shtzel did indeed collect ‘Kamir Gurna’ material regarding women's testimony, the reasons offered for avoiding women's testimony, and the situations in which women's testimony is accepted due to the vital need for it,

                See briefly in his response ‘Ha Baha Talia’ (above) in the last paragraph. And in detail in his response of the day of In Elul 5773, to Eli Hadad's article, "Going Out into the Wider Spaces," and in his response, "Maharl's Explanation" (Ma'ashk Mishpatim 5772, ibid.). Since then, things have been added, and I will not mention them.

                As I recall, they talk about the embarrassment caused to a woman by facing "cross-examination" by judges and litigants, or about the severe discomfort a compassionate woman feels when a man is punished or denounced as a liar and is required to pay a fine based on their testimony. Therefore, the Torah prevented them from being brought to testify (unless it is impossible without their testimony, in which case there is room for a regulation that would oblige them to testify)

                With blessings, Alush Abu Shmil, the noble savage

                I did not find the reasoning “women are light-minded” in the sources in the context of women’s testimony. And I will surprise you if I say that there is no such expression in the Sages at all. In precise formulas, “women are light-minded about them” appears, which according to Rashi is “flexibility”, the opposite of what is called today “decisionism”; and according to Maimonides, “emotionality” means “emotionality”;

                In Pesachim Fah, the rabbi says: Whoever changes the mind of the messenger and sacrifices a ram instead of a goat (or vice versa) - his mission is invalid, except for a king and a queen - whose mind is easy for them. Rashi interpreted it as meaning that a king and a queen trust in the choice of their servants and therefore are not strict. In contrast, Maimonides wrote in his book Piha that a king and a queen are concerned that they will be criticized and severely punish the messenger who changed, and therefore stipulate in the law that the sacrifice will be kosher despite the change of mind of the messenger.

                We find two parallel approaches in explaining the concern that a man will be alone with several women. Rashi interpreted the fear that he would seduce both of them, a phenomenon that is unfortunately still familiar today, with charismatic people seducing and misleading innocent women into believing that there is a "great mitzvah" in the offense. And the Meiri interpreted the fear that a woman, out of her compassion, would cover up for the sinners.

              4. In a response there, the method was brought up that this is a decree of the Scripture and it was explained in the opinion of the education that women are liable to make mistakes. I asked about the criticism below about the parable of the savages and it seems that you said that it is not similar to the situation in halakha in any respect. If there is a sermon that is categorized as a decree of the Scripture, then it is precisely a matter to which the parable of the savages is applied, because there is a law and its meaning exists but is unknown (because sermons have meanings, as written in the column). So what is your criticism of the relationship between the parable and the parable?
                The reasons for the embarrassment and unpleasantness are of course slight, and if they did not come from the words of the poskim, I have no interest in dealing with them.

                By the way, maybe their light mind is like light-headedness? A figure of speech because ‘heavy mind’ does not ring familiar, and why would not the opposite of their light mind be? And if the opposite is heaviness, then I am fair.

              5. In the s”d ”d Ba”omer p”b

                L”c – Shalom Rav,

                You explained the ’parable’ nicely by saying that for reasons not stated in the poskim – you are not addressing it. This is exactly what I am arguing: It is impossible to make divisions in halakha based on ‘Christian beliefs’ that are taken from the finger, but rather one must judge according to beliefs that have an anchor in the sources.

                Regarding the testimony of a woman – It seems that the opinion of most of the Rishonim is that this is a &#8216scripture’, after all, a woman is considered kosher and pure even in the prohibitions of cutting donkeys, and it is not clear why they would not accept her testimony regarding money? There are quite a few things in the Torah that are in the nature of &#8216law’ That their taste was not revealed to humans.

                What is given to us is to amend regulations where necessary and ’gender of the word’ and therefore the Gemara mentioned the loyalty of a midwife to testify about the identity of the newborn, and therefore the ancients established the acceptance of a woman's testimony where she has vital information, and this is also the practice of the courts in practice, since there is no doubt about the woman's credibility.

                Standing before the judges and being cross-examined by litigants who try to undermine the credibility of the witness – is a traumatic experience even for a man (for example, Moshe Dachner, whose heart could not stand it and he passed away in the middle of his testimony), and for this reason the Sages exempted scholars from testifying in court, all the more so &#8216 a woman whose rape is imminent and whose tears are frequent’ – Feels very bad when they try to undermine her credibility and portray her as a liar.

                The sages said that they do not demand an oath from a widow and a divorced woman who claims her address in court, because ’no man wants his wife to be disgraced in court’, so to torture a woman with a merciless interrogation by her husband or his lawyer – Therefore, it is very understandable to me that the Torah and the sages practiced ’patronage’ and deprived women of this dubious ‘honor‘.

                And as for &#8216their minds are light’ – it is not said anywhere. After all, a woman by nature is the complete opposite of ’light-headed’. ‘A woman takes things to heart and takes it hard, even if she doesn't show it on the outside.

                ‘Their opinion is easy on them’, as it is said in Pesachim, about ‘king and queen’ it is flexibility and concession and willingness to rely on the opinion of others (according to Rashi) or a sharp emotional reaction (according to Maimonides). And when there are explanations explained in the first – Dayani Behom

                With blessings, Alush Abu Shamil.

              6. Paragraph 2, line 2
                … For a woman is faithful to kosher…

              7. Even in the testimony of Kiddushin (witnesses of existence) is there a demand and cross-examination?
                If there is an alternative to the decree of the scripture without reason or with reason, it seems logical, as the column says, to go with the reason, and especially in sermons. Rabbi Michi also has an article on conspiring witnesses, and there, as I think he rightly claims, there is also a reason for the Gaza (at least, let's assume so by default).

                When I said that their light mind is like light-headedness, I meant that the scripture is worn out and light-headedness accustoms a person to shame, it seems that the light-headed one will deal with a woman. Your words make sense, and I was only making a faint assumption.

              8. [By the way, what I said is that I have no interest in dealing with reasons that seem weak to me and that were not mentioned in the words of the poskim. If they were not weak to me or if they were presented in the Gemara and poskim, then I am interested in dealing with them. Crude and finger-pointed opinions are exactly what I am looking for if they seem correct to me.]

              9. And see also the articles of: Dr. Avi Weinroth, “The Woman in the Judicial Process” on the “Da’at” website; Prof. Shimshon Ettinger, “A Woman as a Witness in the Law of Property in Jewish Law,” Dinei Israel 22-21 (5761), pp. 241 ff.; Orit Malka, “The Testimony of a Woman and the Testimony of a Single Witness in the Torah of the Tannaim,” Dinei Israel 33 (5721), pp. 227-270.

                Best regards, Apoh

  6. A beautiful column for the wonder of the wonder of the button and the flower of the grape vine.
    It's just that I think I've included complementary components here that might give a broader picture.

    Note that by and large, the mustard and the haredi support passionately and devoutly (and often with madness in their eyes and sometimes even honestly, in which they will lie consciously) the leadership of bribery by fraud and breach of trust against the people who are supposed to be a light to the nations.
    This really encompasses almost 100? % of them.

    And the more liberal justice is willing to hear about the issue, some will still support bribery by fraud and breach of trust but some will be ashamed and some will agree that it is a disgrace.

    Why is the division like this?

    How is it related?
    I think it can help complete the picture.

      1. It seems to me that the connection

        There are those who are interested in what reality and truth are and try to weave their lives into it, as well as the halacha that is part of their lives.
        He will listen to logical explanations and facts about a changing reality, he will feel uncomfortable and certainly not Jewish with support for bribery, fraud and breach of trust.

        But there are those who decide to ignore reality and truth, and this is how they will act both in their moral-political choices and in halacha.

        They have no problem with lies or a virtual reality instead of the truth.
        Thus they paved the way for themselves to support the humiliations of bribery, fraud and breach of trust.

        Is there anyone who can better articulate life than Rabbi Michi?

  7. Interesting topic.
    Does the rabbi define himself as Orthodox?
    I want to argue that you are not Orthodox, and I see this as a compliment rather than a denigration.
    Without going into the specific content of one Orthodoxy or another, the very assumption that there is a “right way” stands in contradiction to science and modernity, which are willing to reexamine assumptions in accordance with the findings of reality. The rabbi is systematically faithful to the scientific method and seeks to follow the truth, and has even changed his positions over the years.
    In response, attempts to unite modernity and Orthodoxy have been doomed to failure, both on the ideological level, and ultimately, probably also on the practical level.
    Orthodoxy, of course, exists de facto on the secular-left wing as well, which is how we got the postmoderns, or by their current name: woke…

    1. This is already a semantic question. You can of course define Orthodoxy in this way, but I do not share this definition. In any case, I am not really interested in defining whether I am Orthodox or not. We need to discuss whether I am right or not.

  8. Beautiful article.

    Although without any contradiction to the article, I perceive things a little differently. In this article, I present it with the example of the conservative midrash and the simplistic midrash. The fact that the dispute in matters is about what reality is and not necessarily about what the correct values, the correct interpretation or the will of God are. In other words, it is certainly possible to say that even a scholar who is Haredi or Haredi national. Conservative or whatever we call it - a light as well as a severe keeper. Makes sure to draw his entire lifestyle from Jewish law and at most also from Jewish thought - will come to the conclusion that from a historical point of view. For example, the sages did not intend to give sanctions to the infidel that we know today. The gentile that we know were. They did not forbid teaching Torah to women that we know today - he should have no problem, even from a completely conservative and completely religious starting point, changing his attitude to these issues - just as he would have no problem reading English literature from time to time as a rest for the soul based on the permit from the end that is in the rules The ruling. To consume a healthy and proper diet and to be fit precisely according to the instructions of modern medicine, which is not wise.

    But I think that the line that separates the Haredim and the National Haredim from the modern Orthodox of all their types, sects and levels - is how much a person allows himself to draw values, ideas, forms of thinking. That stem not necessarily from the Torah - but perhaps from the general culture. Perhaps from feelings and intuitions that were imprinted in us as people who live as modern people. And have adapted to the ”modern head” -

    And perhaps I will go further and say that the debate does not even begin with how we look at the modern head and our modern feelings or what weight we give to our common sense when we come to examine all kinds of statements, articles and rulings of halakhah - but rather a debate about in the first place what the essence of the Torah is, what the essence of the commandments is. What is the purpose of halakhah. Of keeping the commandments. For those who see mainly the work of the religious person, halakhah and nothing else, like you for example - do not believe in the concept of Jewish morality, Jewish thought or head Jew - It's actually easy to be modern and religious at the same time. As I remember you once wrote, in your opinion, Halacha and morality are two separate categories. They don't have to contradict each other. And there doesn't have to be opposition between them. Even if, like Abraham our father, we often surrender ourselves to the benefit of the law - the conservative, the Torah-based, mustard-colored haredi or whatever you call it - often sees the resistance. The uncompromising struggle, the blood-spattered war with the modern world - the very desire of the Torah that has come to elevate us and raise us to new levels of holiness that have nothing to do with the low and impure world of most people who are in a lie today. I present things in a caricatured and quite deliberately way. It is worth emphasizing a point that I have noticed many times. For example, in the sermons of those who have returned from repentance, from the point of view of people whose intelligence and understanding can indeed be poor, like Yossi Mizrahi for example - we see that what they drew from the haredi world when they entered it - is this motif - that there was once a vast and unbridgeable gap between the world of the law. The world of the Torah. The holy and sublime Jewish spiritual world - between the low, impure and despicable earthly world - and that the whole purpose of the Jew in our world is To meet this test and, in addition to observing the Halacha, to develop contempt and hatred for everything that is outside of holiness. The concepts that raised the Jew to a level of holiness that is many times higher than the Gentile probably have a part in this worldview - if I see the Jew in advance as a holy and sublime creation whose antithesis is the Gentile. It is very easy to come from such a thinking pattern to the conclusion - that most of the cultural world. Most of the "ordinary" forms of thinking. They are impurity because they are forms of thinking and values that come from the person who is the antithesis to my essence as a Jew. Although it is also possible to be a lover of man and hold such a different approach. This does not necessarily overlap with each other. But in my opinion there is a connection. (Actually, not only does it not necessarily overlap with each other, it is possible that it does not overlap with each other at all. After all, one can see the students of Rav Kook who believe in the concept of the virtue of Israel as the essence of faith and at the same time actually preach clarification Sparks from all the culture of sanctification of this world. And probably instead of war isolation or the correction of the modern world and raising it to holiness. The best definition I can give to this type of thinking is simply modern Orthodox Fomandalists)

    In contrast to this approach, there is the approach that the Renaissance rabbis tried to present - there is a holy Torah - and alongside it there is a secular culture. The attitude towards secular culture is neither good nor bad - when secular culture and the outside world are good - there is no problem in adopting parts of it from the endings as long as they do not contradict Judaism. Because the goal of the Jew is simply keeping the commandments. And the work of God. There does not have to be an overlap between this and war necessarily from their point of view. And they did not see the secular and the holy, the Jew and the Gentile, mainly as something similar to the war of the children of light against the children of darkness

  9. I also think getting up early and/or praying as soon as you wake up.
    It used to be with the sunrise because they also went to sleep not long after sunset
    Today when there is a lot of ? and there is electricity the order is to pray as soon as you wake up at 8 or at least as soon as you wake up to pray.

    And there is no order with the sunrise.
    Suitable?

  10. I just saw that tonight there is a launch for the book by my friend Rabbi Yehuda Brandes:
    https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/b1ydvx1v5
    The article attempts to bridge the sociological divides. The problem is that the bridging itself is sociological. There seems to be (in the article. I haven't read the book) a mix between religious Zionism and modern Orthodoxy.

    1. I read Rabbi Brandes' book and also attended a service in his honor yesterday evening. The book does not confuse but rather creates distinctions. The purpose of the book is to eliminate the hyphen and claim that there is an ellipsis there, that is, something more stable, organic, that connects poles, a connection that is not conflictual but necessary, existential, and calm. And that this is the core of religious Zionism and that it also contains a message for the entire world, including non-Jews. It was an interesting evening, most of it interwoven with agreements and talk about religious Zionism, until at a certain point Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira (who admitted that he had not read the book) stood up and attacked the Modern Orthodox using data from the Central Bureau of Statistics, according to which the minority of religious dropouts occurs in the Haredi and Haredi world (I don't remember the numbers) and the majority – in Modern Orthodoxy – and especially among the Laity. This served as an argument for him to be anxious. He argued that limits must be set, otherwise we will be left with nothing, and cited as an example the trend to abolish the seven clean days that had begun to gain ground in certain religious liberal circles.

      1. In the Bible, the ellipsis assumes the existence of two different centers around which life revolves: religion and modernity, centers that are essentially separate but that make a compromise between them.

        On the other hand, the hyphen in the expression religious-national assumes that there are no separate poles here but a complete connection. The national is the adjective for religious: religious, emphasizing the values of nationalism that are an inseparable part of the values of the Torah.

        With greetings, Akiva Yosef Halevi Radetzky

        By the way, the celebrations of Lag BaOmer in Meron were revived in the 1950s by religious Zionists - Rabbi Neriah, founder of the Bnei Akiva Yeshiva, and members of the Military Rabbinate, who held a gathering for IDF soldiers in Meron every year on Lag BaOmer, in order to be inspired and strengthened by the spirit of the Rashbi, who united in his personality the greatness of the Torah with the refusal to accept enslavement to foreign rule. Let us hope that the conduct of the religious Zionist project will mark the return of the crown of the hyphen to its former glory 🙂

        1. Separate – yes, compromise – no. The ellipse includes and contains both in one reality. The dash is a rather weak connection. A kind of and ’ connection. It stands next to each other but does not connect.

        2. In the Bible, L. B. BaOmer, P. B.

          If I cannot accept the concept of the ellipse that creates two foci in the human world that appear to be of equal value: the Torah and life, then as a classmate of Rabbi Brandes in the mathematical-physical department at the Meir Path, I was reminded that there is also an elliptical motion around one focus, namely the motion of the Earth around the Sun, which takes place in an elliptical orbit, which creates the change of seasons.

          And so too in the motion of human life in relation to God and His Torah, there is a “return and return” of a sense of ascent and descent, closeness and distance. There are times when a person feels in the ’lights’ and there are times when a person feels ‘stuck’ in a gray and boring routine. A person must understand that the change of seasons is necessary. There should be periods saturated with impressive energetic activity, just as there should be periods of gathering saturated with thinking and self-criticism (reflection in the ”Z). These and these – complement and violate each other.

          The same Rashi who exalts the total dedication to studying Torah without ceasing – is also the one who knows how to teach the merit of reading the morning Kash, who thereby fulfills ‘vahagit in it day and night’. The main thing is that in all situations a person will not let go of his grip on the Torah as a lantern and the compass of his life.

          Best regards, Ben-Zion Yohanan Kepler-Radetzky

      2. He does mix things up (according to the description in the article), because the connections are made on a sociological rather than substantive basis. He also talks about religious Zionism and means Modern Orthodox. These are two completely different things. Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira and his confusions are well known.

        1. Who appointed Rabbi Y.S. as a speaker? Does he know how to study besides speaking about views??
          In the Haredi community, he was a type D preacher’

          1. Indeed, he was a preacher there, but type A. The preaching and the Haredi outlook are at the level of snobbery.

  11. I didn't quite understand the comment about the Haredi. Who do you mean by that term?
    Also the claim that the Haredim are better than them according to their perception: they are more closed, more conservative, more in control of Shas and the interpretations than them, more devoted to pure learning than they are to secular studies.
    Unclear. Why can't we say that we should be more closed, conservative, etc. than the "religious mainstream" but we shouldn't be dragged to the extreme of the Haredim and combine Torah with practical life? Why isn't this an opinion that can be right?
    Unless we are referring to marginal groups, there is no connection between the Haredim and the Haredi perception, but overall the Haredim claim that we should be more careful about openness than the average religious person but don't completely rule it out, they simply draw the line somewhere else (just as the average religious person wouldn't send their children to watch the Pride parade in order to "learn about the values of the Western world"). And try to learn from it.

    1. This is not less extreme than the Haredim. They are just less successful because unfortunately they have not been able to completely separate themselves from the religious environment from which they grew. There is a deep connection. The Haredim are Haredim in every essential sense. There is no difference between them (as long as we are dealing with generalizations), except that the Haredim are more ideological and less practical.

  12. Very strong column, good luck.
    I think that when the claim is really just a question of whether there is another reason, it doesn't hold water. The problem begins when there are several reasons or midrashic interpretations of the law, then a discussion begins about which of the doctrines is more logical and there is not much way to prove to one side. For example, one could say that women were forbidden to study Torah because then they were ignorant and bad things would come out of it, compared to today where there is no difference. Or one could say that the Torah did not want women to study Torah because it wanted them to be involved in raising children or something like that (this is just an example…) From the sources we have, it is difficult to decide what was intended. In such a case, would we prefer doctrinal or simplistic conservatism?

    1. אין צורך בספקולציות כשיש מקורות מפורשים - 'לימוד תורה לנשים' כמשל (לדודא) says:

      In the B”D 32 Ba”Omer P”B

      To Duda – Shalom Rav,

      ‘Torah study for women’ is an example of how the first and last generations discussed the reasons for Rabbi Eliezer's statement ‘Whoever teaches his daughter Torah is as if she taught prayers’, and from this they found various ways of allowing it.

      In explaining the concern of ‘Tefilut’, Rashi explained in Sota 21 that the concern that teaching Torah to girls might involve forbidden connections between the student and her teacher or her partners in Torah discourse. A concern that was very serious in the reality of a Torah that was entirely oral that required hours of sitting together for teachers and students, but even in today's reality there is no shortage of problems of inappropriate connections between a teacher and his student. However, it seems that Rashi did not see this as a blanket prohibition, since he himself taught his daughters Torah.

      In contrast, Maimonides (Heb. Talmud Torah, Chapter 4) interprets that the concern is that "most women are not inclined to learn." And there is a fear that the Torah will be “taken out for useless things”, which means: the fear of distorted understanding of the Torah due to the student’s impatience to delve into the depth of the things (“directed mind” concerns “the ability to concentrate”, as explained in the words of the Maimonides in the prayer)..

      In his words, the Maimonides opened up two directions: One is in his statement that “most women do not have a directed mind”; it sounds like there is a minority whose “directed mind” is there and they can be taught, and as the author of the “Prisha” explained (Yod Remo) that Rabbi Eliezer took the initiative because his daughter was still young and there was no indication yet that she was serious and capable of deepening her study, and generally you hear that when the student seems serious, she can be taught (and indeed, women have been known throughout the generations to have studied Torah, such as the mother of the Prisha and the mother of Rabbi Akiva Iger and many others).

      The second opening that Maimonides opened is a study that has no depth and its content is clear and lucid. Thus Maimonides writes in Halacha (ibid.) that teaching his daughter the written Torah is not the same as teaching her prayers. Thus Maimonides writes at the end of Chapter 4 of Mahal The fundamentals of the Torah, which are explanations of the commandments of the Torah and its laws, are what align a person for life in the world to come, and they are things that can be understood by “small and great, man and woman, broad-hearted and narrow-minded.” This is an explicit invitation for women to learn the laws of the Mishnah Torah, and as such, they wrote in the glosses of the Samaritans that women should learn the laws that concern them, and for this reason the B'Yi (O'Haq 109) ordered that women recite the blessing of the Torah.

      Hundreds of years later, another step was taken - the establishment of Torah schools for girls. Since boys and girls were not taught Torah, it was not a problem for parents to send their daughters to general schools. And a situation arose where the general education that girls acquired led them to distance themselves from Jewish tradition. Then a revival began in establishing schools for girls so that their Torah education would not lag behind their general education. This was started by Rabbi Hirsch and Rabbi Hildesheimer in Germany, and Sarah Schnirer, who founded the Torah School, learned from them. Jacob in Eastern Europe, with the encouragement of the Rebbe of Gur and the Chafetz Chaim, who explained in the "Likkuti Hilchot" to the Sota, that in a situation where girls learn all the "prayers" of Western culture in schools, it is essential that they learn the Bible and the basics of faith and halakhah in a thorough manner.

      From here the way was paved for the encouragement of increasingly in-depth study. The Lubavitcher Rebbe instructed that part of the study of "necessary laws" was the study of Hasidism in depth, which is essential for strengthening faith. The Gerd Soloveitchik introduced in-depth study of Gemara for interested students, and the Rabbi Kuperman founded the The ’College for Women’ has returned to the study of the Bible and Torah by women at a very high level.

      It seems that despite a vocal feminist minority of women ‘who recite Torah verses in the words of the habib and prayers–, the majority of women ‘have minds set on discipleship’ and their study leads to strengthening in the fear of God and in the observance of the mitzvot.

      With greetings, Eliam Fish”l Werkheimer

      For additional material, see the article by Dr. Yael Levin, ‘The Response of Rabbi Yitzhak Nissim on Women and Talmud Torah’

      1. I saw on a well-known Haredi website that Sarah Schnirer did not receive approval from any of the elders.
        She acted on her own, and only in retrospect did the Rebbe Magor and the Chafetz Chaim join in at a later stage.
        Those who helped her at the first stage were gentile organizations.
        The writer there wants to show that even elders can make mistakes (epikurs – in the eyes of a common Haredi)

        1. Pshita. The things are well-known and famous. And so it was with many other things. There is a well-known Haredi scholar, Zvi Weiman, who has a large archive of documents on the history of Agoy. He once wrote a book, "Maktovits to Jerusalem," I believe. His main argument there is that Agoy was always run by the mob of activists and not by the rabbis.

          1. By the way, if you read the memoirs of Yaakov Rosenheim, you will see that the establishment of the Ago”yi was also done by businessmen (most of whom will be angry), and the rabbis embellished the move.

        2. קיבלה את הסכמתם של הרבי מבלז, הרבי מגור והח"ח (למוזר) says:

          On the occasion of Tel Aviv, Israel,

          L’Mozer’ – Shalom Rav,

          After asking for forgiveness from the writer on the well-known Haredi website, Sarah Schnerer went into exile during World War I to Vienna, where she saw that among Ashkenazi Jews it was customary to give girls a Torah education. At the end of World War I, (1988), when Sarah Schnerer returned to Krakow, she turned to several rabbis and was rejected, and on the advice of her brother, she turned to the Rebbe of Belz, who supported and encouraged her. Even the Chofetz Chaim expressed his support for teaching Torah to girls in his book ‘Likutei Hilchot’ for the tractate Sota, which was printed in Petrikov in 1988. The Rebbe of Gur also supported the idea (and according to a book I saw, the name of which I unfortunately forgot, he was the one who influenced the Chacha to support it).

          In other words: the first Beit Yaakov school, which opened in Krakow in 1919, was supported by the three most prominent Torah leaders of Polish Jewry - the Chacha and the Rebbe of Gur, who headed the Council of Torah Sages of Agudat Yisrael, and even the Rebbe of Belz, who in his zeal refused to join Agudat Yisrael, saw Sarah Schnirer's actions as a necessary and vital innovation. The revolution in this case came from above.

          With greetings, Eliam Fishel Werkheimer

          The difficulty was precisely on the part of the girls, who were not many who agreed to give up the recognized certificate and education that the Polish government-run Beit Nesfer provided them, but in this case the influence of the prominent Torah scholars bore fruit, and following the call of the Great Men of Israel, the Amch went with them;

          Sarah Schnerer was preceded by a Galician rabbi named Rabbi David Leiter, who in his book Beit David, printed in 1912, wrote about the need to teach the girls of Israel Torah, but Sarah Schnerer was the one who both conceived the idea and received the approval of the great men of the generation, and also carried it out.

          Graduates of Beit Yaakov They brought about a change in consciousness in ultra-Orthodox Polish Jewry, as before, Torah students were considered idlers, a yeshiva student was called a "naked guy", a "poor guy". Graduates of "Beit Yaakov" who were raised to love Torah and sought to marry a "son of Torah" raised the profile of yeshiva students in public.

          1. The writer there denies this information.
            The support of the Rebbe of Belz was limited to the fact that Mrs. Schnirer was presented to him as someone who wanted to engage in
            the education of girls in Yiddishkeit and he said: B”h – blessing and success.
            According to the writer there – The revolution did not come from above – on the contrary. There was resistance from above.
            As stated – I am just quoting. See there.
            https://bshch.blogspot.com/2021/08/blog-post_273.html

            1. The anonymous author did not cite any source indicating opposition from the Rebbe of Belz and the Rebbe of Gur, and admits that he would bless Sarah Schnirer with blessings and success. The words of the rabbi were printed in Petrikov 1918, a year before the opening of the rabbi's house. However, he is right to add the Rebbe of Sanz to the list of supporters 🙂

              With blessings, Apo

              1. And see more: In the article by Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, ‘The Third Revolution– From Scholarly Women to Women Learners’, on the website ‘Kingdoms of Israel’. And in the article by Prof.’ Rachel Menkin, ‘”Something Completely New” – The Development of the Idea of Religious Education for Girls in Modern Times’, Tractate, 2 (2004), p. 63-85). Among other things, she discusses the relationship between Rabbi Zvi Hayut and Rabbi Dov Meizelsh (p. 65), Maharashtrian of Barzan (p. 78-79), Sarah Schnerer (p. 80-85) and the Rabbi of Belz (p. 81).

                With best regards, Apoor

    2. It is impossible to establish a rule. Each case and question is unique. But as a rule, the most plausible interpretation should be adopted.

  13. I read the article, but I miss something in the description of the conservative argument. The entire argument places logic against the current situation, but pushes it to the point of absurdity – logic is solid and absolute, and all that holds the current situation is absurd inertia.
    For example:
    “Even in the absence of substantiation from the sources, I accept a conservative midrash by virtue of its internal logic… there is no reason to reject a logical interpretation on the grounds that there may be another unknown interpretation that is not known to us.”

    But there are two things here that should be given greater weight.
    On the first level, there is the conservative position. The very fact that the absolute majority that surveyed the issue holds a certain position should give us an intuitive understanding that this is not a position devoid of content.
    But on a more significant level, our logic must be questioned.
    After all, you too have changed your mind about a number of things over the years, as you write yourself.
    So why would we rush to change something according to that clear and sharp logic, only to change it back when we find the error?

    That is, the conservative argument is that the logic of the conservative midrash also needs to stand the test of time and the masses. It’s not that we’re just waiting for another unknown interpretation – we’re giving it time and space to see if our interpretation is stable.
    This is not an argument against change, but an argument about how changes should be made, and the pace at which they should be made. And while this way we’ll implement good changes more slowly, we’ll also avoid many changes that could have been harmful.

    1. And as a side note - I work for a pharmaceutical company, and there is a difference between the conduct in research and development departments, which is sometimes more chaotic-academic, and the strict quality assurance requirements that exist in production departments.
      Your column about the differences in definitions of quality at the time made me think that even in halakhah, there will be those who will look for quality through the eyes of research and development and there will be those who will look for quality through the eyes of a production department.

      And this, in my opinion, is a significant root of disputes on such issues.

    2. I don't understand these questions, mainly because most of them were answered in the column.
      First, I didn't talk about the pace of change. That's a policy question that I didn't address. Second, conservatism and innovation are both invalid approaches in my opinion, and I referred to the columns in which I explained why. Decisions should be made based on their logic, not ideologies. If a proposal for change seems right to me, then the fact that it's not conservative is irrelevant. Furthermore, it doesn't mean that there are many who disagree with it. These many operated in a different environment, that's the whole point of the argument. The many today object not because they object to the argument, but because they categorically do not accept such arguments. If objections to the argument itself arise, I completely agree that they should be considered and then a position should be formulated.
      Questioning our logic is always good. But surely one should question a proposal that presents no logic (perhaps there is another explanation). After all, that is much more dubious.
      That I changed my mind in the past is completely true. So what? So not accept what I think? And if I think of being conservative, do I have to accept that? In other words, if not my logic, what tools will I rely on? Taking into account other opinions is also my decision.
      The comparison to what is happening in your company is incorrect. After all, when you compare strict quality control to conservatism, that is the mistake itself. The innovator claims that conservatism is criminal and will lead to a bad and harmful product.
      But I explained all of this well in the column.

  14. In my opinion, the Midrashic conservative is right to a certain extent and needs to provide better evidence for his claim:
    What you call Midrashic conservatism is actually an excuse of the type of okimata that is weaker than a regular excuse. In fact, the Midrashic conservative assumes that there is another unknown factor - the reason, which is actually the main teaching and the main thing in the tradition that we received is missing from the book, since there is no evidence of the existence of the division in the tradition itself.
    If we talk about the parable of the swimsuits - the fact that we do not know of one of our ancestors who wore a sweater even though we know that our ancestors also reached cold places weakens the okimata.
    The same applies to women's testimony - despite women like Bruria Hazal, women's testimony was not permitted for women who were wise or involved in the eyes of the world (there were even queens during Hazal's time)

    It is clear that there are places where Midrashic conservatism is more correct, but it must indeed have an advantage in order to be accepted over simple conservatism.

    1. Absolutely not true. I wrote that my assumption (which is agreed upon by most simplistic conservatives) is that there is some logic at the basis of the teaching. If so, then the debate is only what that logic is. Therefore, continuing with a swimsuit also assumes that there is another logic at the basis that is not known at all, that is, it assumes some interpretation. It is certainly not better.
      The fact that they did not allow women to testify, because the halakha operates according to the majority (as the Maimonides said). Today, the majority has changed.

      1. It is not just assuming that there is logic, but assuming that logic causes consequences that change the law in other cases, a change that has not been observed before. Whoever claims that our ancestors wore a swimsuit because it is beautiful is in my opinion at a disadvantage in a situation where there is no evidence of a change from the driver.
        Regarding testimony - not in all cases do we do ne'plog, there are cases where different women are treated differently, for example, conversion, the ability to sell assets. There are cases in the Gemara that divided between different women in different places (women of Didan) or an important woman. The gates of excuses have not been closed and it can be argued that testimony is something else and here it does not belong to distinguish between women, but any such assumption as stated weakens the argument that there is a reason why there is no ne'plog of genders that we are now observing for the first time

        1. This is just an insistence. Every explanation has consequences, including the unknown explanation (the implication that one should continue to wear a swimsuit). So we returned to the question of presumption (a change that changes the law and a change that leaves it), and as I explained, in my opinion there is no presumption here because both explanations change the law. According to the Midrashic Conservative, the simple Conservative changes the law of wearing clothing that is appropriate for the weather.
          The question of when to do ne'plog and when not, is difficult to give criteria for. But the fact that wise women did not do this is certainly not a problem. And yet the advantage of a logical explanation over an unknown one remains.

  15. What about a change in values? Both in the question of whether to allow a change in values, and also in the question of whether to take a change in values into account in determining the law.

    Should we allow a change in values, when the environment changes, or should values, once we have defined them well, remain stable even over the test of time, and in the question of values, will we act with simplistic conservatism?

    And if we do allow a change in values, will a change in values (for example, – we see value in teaching Torah to women, Maimonides did not see value in it. At least for the sake of example) justify a change in the law (and we will allow more than Maimonides allowed)? Or will only a change in reality justify a change in the law?

    1. This topic will be discussed in the next column. By the way, Maimonides' values are really not important to the discussion. Just as he posited his own values, I can posit mine. The question is what are the values of God or the Torah.

  16. First of all, regarding equal derivation, I heard an explanation of the matter from Rabbi Sharaki (and I assume that this is what the students of the Ramban intended). Ostensibly, the sentence “No one judges a derivation by himself unless he received it from his rabbi” contains an internal contradiction (after all, if he himself judges the derivation, then he did not receive it from his rabbi, and if he received it from his rabbi, then he did not judge it. It is difficult to say that everyone who learns equal derivation from his rabbi is considered to be judging a derivation by himself, because then everyone who studies Gemara is essentially judging a derivation by himself). But the simple fact is that no one judges a derivation by himself unless he received from his rabbi how to judge a derivation. That is, he did not receive the specific ghazal that he issued, but he learned how to rule on ghazals in general. (It may be that these things are known, I just wanted to comment on this in response to your writing that the students of the Ramban said that the Gemara says something wrong, and this is a natural way to reconcile your comment and the Gemara is still correct).
    Secondly, regarding the issue of a woman's testimony. Even the simple conservative finds solutions to the situation, for example, that although a woman's testimony is not considered as testimony, the judge certainly takes it into account (after all, the judge is allowed to rule whatever he wants). And so we found a way to circumvent the problem you described.
    Thirdly,
    Do you agree with what Rabbi Ido Pechter writes?? The man is de facto abolishing the authority of the halakhah and claiming that in fact it is a sequence of acts that are not required to be performed all at once. How can you agree with something like this?
    Now get down to the essence of the column.
    First of all, I am not sure that modern Orthodoxy is the Midrashic conservative. (See the words of the Gerida on the assumption of a good reason for the best that you constantly go against them) But of course this is a question of who you include in the definition of modern Orthodoxy.
    Second,
    Don't you think there is a fundamental difference between a law in which I explain the explanation and a law in which the Gemara writes the explanation? Tirgitz proved that the Meiri also brought a source from the Gemara and did not just invent a reason on his own. (Another example of a similar law is the Rabi'ah on the reason for the Seder night, where one can also base his opinion on the Gemara) Your argument was: “Nowhere have I seen that a proposal for a reasonable explanation for any Halacha was rejected just because there might be another unknown explanation” The question is not whether the explanation was rejected but whether the explanation created a problem, right?
    If we talk about a woman's testimony, I can argue that the reason for disqualifying a woman (isn't this taught from a verse at all? If so, what's the point of the whole discussion?) is because she speaks more than men and it's harder to trust her word. Or that women are more emotional and therefore tend to interpret situations differently. (Sorry for the chauvinism and essentialism) Why did you decide that your explanation is the most reasonable?
    You yourself wrote: “Indeed, in several places we found “and because we imagine we do an act?!”. But since I think this is an illogical approach, it should be interpreted in all these places that there was a good reason to doubt the proposed interpretation” This is exactly what happens with the changes you are trying to make in halakha, conservatives have a good reason to doubt the proposed interpretation. It smells strongly of an attempt to push liberal values into halakha, that's how it feels when reading these explanations.
    A few questions to conclude.
    First puzzlement: The question of how to relate to the reality that the sages claim is the opposite of reality and derive a law from it was discussed in the poskim on the question of killing lice on Shabbat. And I was surprised that His Honor did not mention this discussion at all.
    Second puzzlement: How did His Honor not mention the concepts of reason or sign? After all, these are concepts that are very important for such a discussion)
    Third puzzlement: Nadav Shnerb has an article that claims exactly like you that in fact the question that will sort out many disputes is how to relate to reality and changes in facts and I do not understand how His Honor did not mention this article (I may have distorted his claims a little, but in general it was similar to what you said, Narali)

    1. All these questions were answered in the column, and for some reason you choose to ignore them.

      This explanation by Rabbi Sharkey is nice, but of course if the law has an answer. The point is that a person does not really discuss slander himself, but only transmits it from his rabbi. Therefore, this grammar is not enough to substantiate such a thesis. The Ramban and his students based themselves on evidence from the Talmud, as I mentioned.
      Of course, they did not say that the Gemara wrote anything wrong. They explained the Gemara. Where did you see anything different in my words?!

      I am not looking for solutions, but the truth. If the truth is that a kosher woman should be slandered, not as a solution. I was just commenting that conservatism has its costs, just like innovation, and perhaps more.

      Since I have not read what he writes, I cannot agree or disagree. But without reading, I am sure that he did not write what you describe. This is the kind of conservative demagogic slander.

      I explained that Modern Orthodoxy is a way of thinking, not a particular person. The absurd words of the Gerd are a great example. I also noted that the American Modern Orthodox are very conservative.

      I have already answered Tirgitz's question. If the Gemara provides the explanation, the discussion usually does not exist. We are dealing with a situation where there is no explanation.

      Unfounded suggestions neither raise nor lower. You can also explain that they disqualified women because they have long hair. I have already answered the slippery slope claims.

      Regarding the puzzling questions you raised at the end:
      I did not mention many other discussions. In fact, I did not mention any discussion, since this is an introduction to a conceptual analysis. Killing a louse is indeed a good example.
      I choose my terminology based on my own considerations. If you think something is less successful or lacking, write it down and do not be surprised by what I mentioned and what I did not.
      My column does not include a review of literature, and certainly not literature I have not read. Do not submit it as a master's thesis.

  17. Regarding midrashic conservatism, it is worth reading the progress of Haredi in his world on the way in which poskim expand and narrow laws:
    https://bshch.blogspot.com/2022/03/blog-post_2418.html
    (It is generally recommended to follow him)
    Regarding criminal conservatism, on the same scale, one can also say criminal anti-Zionism. Anti-Zionists are heretics because they are good infidels and do not say Hallel on Independence Day. Most of the time, those who hold an anti-Zionist or anti-Zionist position do not think that they are the criminals. The criminals, in their opinion, are the Zionists. Therefore, when I call them heretics, usually around Independence Day, they are extremely embarrassed.

  18. And which of the videos presented here do you hate that you don't have time to watch?

  19. Yes, yes. Two comments:

    1. Do you really see in Modern Orthodoxy a significant application of midrashic conservatism?

    My impression is that no, most of the time what we see there is perhaps a kind of midrashic conservatism disguised as simple. That is, we have some kind of midrashic conclusion and now we will try to push through the simple halakha in order to reach a situation close to what we would like to see if we were indeed practicing conservative midrash. Extensive application of this midrashic is mainly, to the best of my impression, among the right wing of conservatives.

    2. I would be happy if you would expand on your denial of the assumption that the sermons of the sages should be treated as halakha without a reason.

    If verses are demanded, even if it is clear that the sermon was made from a position (by the way, which is not always clear) – then the Talmud has authority; What does it matter that the sermons were determined from a position, since the Gemara treats them as completely dry sermons, and they have already received their authority as such, and that is how they should be treated (after all, the conditional literature, where they are indeed sermons, was not accepted when it was separate from the Talmud).

    1. 1. Will be discussed later. There is some truth in what you say, but I explained that I am dealing with arguments and not sociology.
      2. I have explained several times that there is no midrash without a sabra. The sides of the sermon are only a textual trigger, but they do not determine the content of the sermon. For example, the ’ God fear you including the תאשר. The measure of the sermon is that ”תאשר”ען comes including the תאשר. The preacher now has to decide what is the sword: תאשר, chairs, pigeons, ideas, and so on? The decision is based on a sabra. Therefore, the rule that does not require a taema dakra is not relevant to the laws that come out in the sermons, but only to the laws that are explained in the text.
      3. See the previous section regarding what you called a “position”. But your question is not understood. I do not deny the authority of these laws. I interpret/require them.

      1. What I was trying to say is this:

        Even if the midrash is made from a commentary, it is formally fixed by the requirement of the words of the verse. Unlike the midrash themselves (who create the sermons), there it is clearer to me that there is room to refer to the commentary – the Gemara accepted these midrash as a finished product. And we accepted the Gemara and not the literature of the midrash. Therefore, it makes sense to say that we must accept the sermons as halakhah without a reason even though they were created from a commentary. Just as the Gemara (as far as I know) does not apply conservative midrash to the sermons of the Tannaites.

        1. I can't understand the argument. First, the midrash are not done in the midrash literature but in the Gemara itself. Second, we have accepted the final halakha but have not taken upon ourselves not to interpret.

  20. I once saw, I no longer remember in what context, that a Gemara was cited in the firstborn of Noah, and it stuck in my memory.

    Tanya said that Ben Azai, because some say this and some say that – the gods enrich themselves.
    And how can we determine its taste? And why does Tima not say that Etamiyeh is a good one, and Tanya Ben Azai says that all the sages of Israel are like me like the peel of garlic, except for this ice [Rashi: Wasn’t Devan Azai a great sage and would have known how to distinguish what is a good taste and what is the most beautiful, That is, Ben Azzai can decide from his own understanding between the opinions of his other Tannaim friends, but he cannot decide from his own understanding between traditions, even though it is clear that only one of them is correct. And in the Tosafot there, they proved at the end of their words that the sages of Zechariah and Malachi (on another matter) did not speak in prophecy but sermons from hearsay, and therefore Ben Azzai could not determine which of them was the main one. That is, reasons cannot decide between sermons either. What is the explanation for this?

    1. It can be explained in several ways. A person can choose not to decide. That does not mean that it is forbidden to choose differently. Furthermore, perhaps he did not trust himself against Haggai Zechariah and Malachi, for fear that he would be wrong. But if he were sure that he was right, he would decide against everyone. And it is also possible to link it to the process of transition from traditionalism to the Torah of negotiation. Perhaps this is an early stage of the process, before the autonomous concept took shape in the Yavneh revolt. See my article here:
      https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9B%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%90-%D7%93%D7%90 %D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%9F-%D7%91%D7%95-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D-%D7 %94%D7%94%D7%95%D7%90-%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%90-%D7%94%D7%95%D7%94-%D7%99

      1. The Gemara distinguishes between deciding between Tannaim beliefs and deciding between traditions. How do the sides that a person chooses not to decide or is mistaken or a Torah of Mo”m (i.e. did Ben Azzai adhere to traditionalism or Mo”m) explain this distinction that the Gemara makes?

        [By the way, I remembered where I saw this Gemara recently, although not for the first time. Following one of the last columns, I leafed through the booklet on the ordination of the Haralb”ch that you mentioned in the column (and as the responsa progresses, the grammars of honor and slurs increase and multiply on the content for which they were gathered, like water covering the sea). And there Ral”ch quotes the words of R”i Berav in praise of himself (and R’ Yaakov Berav clarifies that he spoke the truth because he is the truth and not in Yaakov's pride) and is very proud of it, and within his words he brings the words of Ben Azzai that seem like pride and explains them according to his own way]

        1. I don't think the issue is traditions. Even if it is from the feasts of Zechariah and Malachi, it is an argument of the sages, but they are older. Therefore, it is just a difference in the degree of wisdom and his fear of dividing and deciding between the mountains.

          1. That is, Ben Azzai in relation to the ancients is different from the one in our generation in relation to the Gemara?
            I assume that you mean that Ben Azzai saw reasonable reason here and there and therefore did not want to decide between the high mountains (but between ordinary mountains he would decide) which is more obvious. But if he did not see any reasonable reason at all for one of the methods, then he would decide between the high mountains and choose the explanation or sermon that has a reason that is obvious to him. Is this true?

            1. [Maybe I just wrote that. I will look into it more later because it seems to me that in Halacha without a known reason, when there is doubt about what is right, one does not choose an explanation, even though it is clear that there is some reason. ]

            2. I suppose if he didn't see a point then he would probably understand that something was unclear to him. But I wasn't talking about such a situation. I'm just arguing that there is a difference between the level of the sages who disagree, and it's possible that he allows himself to decide between Tanais and not between prophets.

              1. I don't really understand. A. It's not about deciding between two prophets, but about deciding which tradition is correct from the prophets. B. In your opinion, is this at all similar to the topic of the column (Ben Azzai's weakness against the ancients is like the weakness of our generation against the Gemara) or is there no connection.

              2. The tradition is divided on what these prophets said. Ben Azzai does not want to decide because the words of the prophets he took from him are not certain that he understands their reasoning. But it is really difficult, after all, the two parties of the Tan'im who are divided did formulate a position in relation to the tradition. Perhaps they held to the tradition not because it was right in their eyes but because it was accepted that way. A mistake was made here in the tradition. And indeed, the language of the Gemara is so precise: since this one says this and this one says this, that is, they suspend doubt in the fact that there are two statements and not in the interpretations of the parties. And this settles what is difficult about the Gemara, even if Ben Azzai was a great scholar, is it not possible that he had doubt about some law? But here, from the language, we see that it is not because of his doubt but because this one said this and this one said that. And this is why they made it difficult for him to decide from his own interpretation, and they made excuses.
                The column does not deal with weakness in relation to anyone or even in relation to the Gemara. I do not think that there is any weakness. We undertook not to dispute it.

              3. I would like your permission to present the question with the issue there in more detail because I didn't get a week of answers. Is it okay if I ask it as a new response below? (Space is already tight here)

              4. Physically cramped? In my opinion, there is no need to move. As long as the system allows, it is better to continue here so that order is maintained.

              5. [The inner lines are narrow for a long question. As it is said, "Hurry up and call for lamentations, and come, etc., and hasten and bring them upon us, and let us be."
                I would like to propose in detail the issue (the firstborn of Noah) and the words of the Tosafot, and to ask about the words of the Torah (because for me it is not superfluous. Mm. so that I understand). And if you think the answers are already sufficient, then at least let me know this opinion and Adom.
                The issue proposal in sections a-b and the question in section c.

                A. Dispute in the Mishnah about when Rosh Hashanah for the tenth of animals is 1st Elul or 1st Tishrei. New Year and Old Year are not enriched by one another (for the Rabbi it seems that this is from the Torah. If he has less than 10 old animals, he is exempt from tithing on them). Therefore, animals born in the month of Elul are subject to dispute, whether they are added to the new year born after Tishrei (if the Rabbis say in Elul) or to the old year born before Elul (if the Rabbis say in Tishrei). And Ben Azzai says that “the Elul days are enriched by themselves” to get out of the hands of doubt (by the way, the poskim ruled so).

                B. The Gemara asks why Ben Azzai, who was a great scholar, is stricter in providing and not deciding according to the opinion that is more probable in his eyes, and Rabbi Yochanan answers that the people of dispute here “said it from hearsay, from the Haggai of Zechariah and Malachi”. In the Tosafot, they explained that they did not deliver a prophecy, since a prophet is not permitted to innovate anything from now on, but rather delivered a law.
                In Tractate Rosh Hashanah, Rava explains the method of the disputants (and R. Yochanan himself explains there, in a different way), that there is a deduction from the tithe of livestock to the tithe of grain, and they were divided on what to deduct – Rabbi Meir believed that the tithe of grain near the end of its straightness is also the tithe of livestock near the end of its straightness, and therefore Rosh Hashanah is the tithe of livestock on Elul, and Rabbi Elazar and Rabbi Shimon believed that the tithe of grain on Rosh Hashanah is Tishrei and the tithe of livestock on Rosh Hashanah is Tishrei (apparently this is a dispute about whether the deduction is made from the midrash or the simple deduction. Smiley).
                The Tosafots complicate the words of R. Yochanan in the early years, who said that the dispute is hearsay, since we have sermons before us, and they answer: “And it must be said that even if you recite sermons from hearsay, Haggai Zechariah and Malachi, he would not be able to clarify any principle”.

                C. So as far as I understand, this is exactly the subject of the column in the context of midrashic conservatism. There is a sermon that equates the tithe of livestock to the tithe of grain, and there was a dispute in the tradition about its definition, whether the date itself is being touched upon or the principle that is nearing the end of its straightening.
                Ben Azzai came, and he is a great scholar and is able to formulate an opinion on the subject of what is more reasonable to prescribe, but he refrained from it. In other words, it can be assumed that Ben Azzai had a solid opinion on the subject of what is more reasonable, and yet he did not rely on it to conclude what the correct definition of the sermon was (which was probably delivered by Haggai Zechariah and Malachi), and this is only because the speakers of the sermon had a stronger substantive (and/or formal) authority than he did.
                And in analogy to us, an outstanding rabbi in our generation has a solid opinion on the subject of what is more reasonable to demand or what is the more reasonable definition of the sermon they demanded in the past, but he cannot rely on this in a place where the speakers of the sermon have authority (formal, and in matters of sermons apparently also substantive) higher than he does.
                In other words, midrashic conservatism is limited, and not, as you say (which is very logical in itself), that even in the absence of substantiation from the sources, you accept a conservative midrash by virtue of its internal logic. Ben Azzai is apparently standing in exactly this parashah of the roads that you describe in the column, and he decided to be more strict with the doubter. [And from the rest of the Gemara, it seems to me that it clearly follows that Ben Azzai took the view that it is a completely doubtful law and even a single word is doubtful (because the tenth is certain and not the tenth is doubtful). If there is any objection to this, I will explain]

                You can always divide according to the strength of probability, but what is special here is that the Gemara states that Ben Azzai could, in his opinion, reach a solid conclusion and decide according to one of the Elmali methods that were divided in the tradition. It seems to me that this means that even if he has a conclusion with a high degree of probability, it is not enough to determine that this is indeed the correct sermon.

              6. When you stand before great sages like Hazom, you have to decide on two things: 1. What is your opinion about the inference. 2. Do you understand their opinions and know how to decide. Even if you have your own opinion, you may fear that you have not understood their opinion and therefore not be able to decide.
                I see no connection to the question of midrashic conservatism, since it deals with a situation in which I have a position and I see no reason not to accept it. There is no other sage here who says otherwise, only someone who recoils from the very change.
                If anything, this concerns the question of authority and autonomy and not the question of midrashic conservatism. In my opinion, even if you are not right, you are allowed and obliged to decide according to your own opinion. And a figure of speech from a high-ranking scholar who did not reach the end of his mind and therefore did not (!) rule like him. This can be made difficult by Ben Azzai Danan. And so I said that it is possible that Ben Azzai acted according to the traditionalism that prevailed before the Yavne revolution.
                Now I will add that the answer in the first paragraph (which has two levels to decide) also answers this. A person is called to act autonomously if he understands the opinion of the dissenter and disagrees with him, even if the one who disagrees is greater than him. But if he fears that he did not understand the opinion of the dissenter, then he has the right to trust him. This is of course hidden from the above Gemara regarding R”M, but if we accept it then either way there is no question.

              7. But the Tosafot bring from Rava's words exactly the reasons for the disagreement (do you make a midrashic inference or a simple inference), that's why I brought all the long lines. Are you saying that these reasons also have reasons underneath them all the way down? If these are the reasons, then Ben Azai probably knows what the reasons are that are being disputed and also has an opinion himself (as the Gemara assumes that he can foresee their reasons, which is evident), and yet he does not assume that the sermon that seems most to him is the sermon that the deacons truly foresaw. It is written explicitly in the Gemara that Ben Azai also has a position, and he does not need to disagree with any of the previous ones, but rather to interpret and determine what the real truth is in the first place, and therefore it is exactly similar to midrashic conservatism, and I, with my hands on my hips like a woman giving birth to a viper, accuse and inhale together.

              8. Indeed, if there is a disagreement, there are reasons for it. Why choose a Midrashic or a simple inference? Especially since this seems to be a fundamental and broad disagreement, not a local one (what inferences are made).

              9. Okay, thanks.

                Although, apparently, if it is possible to establish a local dispute, it is better than a fundamental dispute. Because a fundamental dispute means that wherever there is a deduction and two paths are open, the midrashim or pashtis of these tenais will disagree (then you have to search carefully throughout the Gemara to see if each one is according to his own system and whether the Gemara and the Rishonim have made proofs of this, what will every Tanna think, etc.), and especially when they disagree based on hearsay, then if there are dependencies between different laws, it should be said that there was a disruption in the tradition in all these laws simultaneously.
                It seems to me more likely that the ‘hearsay’ dealt with the specific sermon and the specific halakha rather than that the early hearsay dealt explicitly with the scope of the qualities of the sermon, because as you wrote in several places, the conceptualization developed later. Therefore, it seems more likely to me (although not an argument) that the reasons stated here (tapping near the end of its straight line or tapping on the first of Tishrei) are the latter reasons and only in them themselves does the mind waver from one place to another.

                Furthermore, since search engines are available for Israel, and in searching for the Makish box, I saw a related topic there on Rosh Hashanah, and it is on page 4, p. 2 that Rabbi Meir says a minyan for an assembly that has a tashlom every seven days, tapping on the Feast of Unleavened Bread for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which has a tashlom every seven days, even the Feast of Unleavened Bread has a tashlom every seven days.
                This seems like a simple reasoning and not a midrashic reasoning, since seemingly a reasonable midrashic reasoning would say that the Feast of Unleavened Bread has two payments for the entire duration of the holiday, which are seven days, and the Feast of Shavuot has two payments for the entire duration of the holiday, which are one day (and the reasoning is unnecessary and they will find something else to demand from it. The patent, if it is refuted lightly and especially then suddenly they do not always say enough, would seem strange to me).
                And after all, Rabbi Meir makes a midrashic reasoning regarding animal tithes and says grain tithes in the first of Tishrei and animal tithes in the first of Elul, both of which are near the end of their straightness, and regarding Atzeret payments, he makes a simple reasoning. So on the surface of the matter, it seems that there is no fundamental and general disagreement here in the ways of reasoning (and perhaps even an equal ruling), but rather that each place, according to what the preacher believes, is more appropriate for its subject. [I would say that this is not related to the Don Mina and Mina or Okie dispute in its place].

              10. Even if there is a fundamental disagreement about the inference, this does not mean that there will not be different situations in which a different inference will be made. There are other considerations beyond this fundamental consideration, and they can have an impact. For example, even if someone thinks that in principle a simple ruling should be made and not a rabbinical ruling, it is possible that in a particular case they will still rabbinical ruling because of another consideration. These very considerations could be the ones in dispute, and Ben Azzai does not want to get involved in deciding on them.

              11. Agreed and accepted, thank you.

                [I am in Schwang and this “makish” box proves to be useful. In general, the appearances of different ways of makish seem, as stated, to be appropriate examples of the general idea in the column that all conservatism (i.e. the inference between the future and the past) is based on some midrash.
                It would be proper to go through all the inferences and derivations-equal in the Gemara and think carefully about each one, but this is a task only for great knights of thought like R”i Engil and his Bani Bakta, so I only looked for disagreements on matters that can be easily reviewed and so far I have found two more (and one that needs to be examined).

                1. Blessings 4:2 The Amoraic dispute over whether in the evening prayer the Shema is recited before the eighth or after the eighth. And in the Gemara, in the case of a mother, both of them read one reading, demanding that it be written, “When you lie down and when you rise.” R’ Yochanan Seber considered it to be a sign of lying down to get up, what is the sign of standing up, and then a prayer, even a sign of lying down, what is the sign of standing up, and then a prayer. R. Yehoshua ben Levi considered it to be a sign of lying down to get up, what is the sign of standing up, near his bed, even a sign of lying down, what is the sign of standing up, near his bed.
                2. One day, not a day. And he took off his clothes, washed his clothes, and put on his clothes. Rabbi Meir Seber considered it to be a sign of taking off his clothes, what is the sign of wearing, what is the sign of wearing, and then he sanctifies, even a sign of taking off his clothes, and then he sanctifies. And Ravnan Seber considered it to be a sign of taking off his clothes, what is the sign of wearing, when he is dressed in a sanctified garment, even a sign of taking off his clothes, when he is dressed in a sanctified garment.
                3. [Vows 57 a day, I didn't have time to understand right now, but maybe it's related. ]

  21. I wonder what you think about the approach that the prohibition of sexual intercourse was stated only in the context of its belonging to the rituals of the time, but not when it was done for pleasure.

    1. In my opinion, this is a proposal that is far from clear. I wouldn't base anything on it. In my opinion, the proposal that male intercourse is forbidden because of instinct rather than because of nature is more reasonable. But this is also a proposal that I don't agree with.

  22. You can give a good example from the Ezra rule about washing clothes that will not be washed on Shabbat eve so that they are free to deal with Shabbat needs, but what is the ruling today that there is a washing machine? Is it permissible to wash on Shabbat eve, since it will not interfere with preparations for Shabbat?

    Many poskim allow, even the most conservative, but he went so far as to make a reply to the author of the Mishnah Hilchot, who wrote that it is forbidden to change, and why, since there is a Midrash or Gemara that writes that the Chazal, in addition to the written reason, there are a thousand more reasons, and since we do not know all the reasons, it is forbidden to change.

    Scary, scary, scary.

    And about this, the rabbi Lando, one of the heads of the Slobodka Yeshiva, said [at least that is what is known in the Yeshiva] that the reply to the Mishnah Hilchot is not from the word "shona" but from the word "shinu" [for his reasons].

    1. Indeed, a good example of how even Haredim are conservative in their midrash. Although this is also a fairly trivial midrash (like the assumption that no one breaks within time). See the next column.

    2. It is known that the Rambam (Kitab al-Rasal Abulafia) used it in relation to the Mishnah Torah. He sent a criticism of the book The Strong Hand to the people of Lunil and others, where he wrote: “It is the book called the Mishnah Torah, and I do not know whether it is based on tradition or on the Bible”. For all his words, and for this in particular, Rabbi Aharon of Lunil shouted at him with a shofar that grew louder and louder until the entire book there became like a bonfire.

      Incidentally, the first criticism of the Rambam is that the Rambam did not recognize the resurrection of the dead (in the body in the next world), and then he added many halachic questions to it. And Donesh did something similar before him in his misunderstandings about Menachem, who began with a theological misunderstanding (suspecting Menachem as saying that God Himself also directs the wickedness in the world without free choice) and then continued with additional grammatical and interpretive misunderstandings. However, with the Ramach, it seems that professional criticism is a tool for criticism of view (this reminds me for some reason of Rashad Wolpa of Chabad, who set out to undermine Rabbi Shach in scholarship on the teachings of his master), and with Donesh, the feeling arises that criticism of view is a tool for professional criticism.

  23. What will the Rabbi do if those who said that the Meiri wrote this out of fear of the Gentiles

    1. And more seriously, why do I have to say something to everyone who says something? As for the actual claim, I explained well in my article why this is unlikely.

  24. The rabbi brought evidence from the Meiri and on the evidence from the Meiri I asked if the rabbi had an answer to the argument of the key

    But the rabbi's idea itself is quite compelling but it is difficult if there is no precedent for it even in the Meiri

    1. The critics didn't criticize, they just expressed their opinions. Why should I comment on someone else's unreasoned opinion? Beyond that, I wrote that in the article I prove them wrong.

  25. Yeshar Kawh on the turn,
    A few comments,
    1) Is it not possible to conclude that the halakha is final and unchangeable from the fact that in most halakha, the sages did not give the principle of the bridge (or the reason), it would have been more likely that they would have given us the principle of the bridge in a clear way, as in the examples given (the presumption that no one transgresses, etc.) than that we would live in constant doubt about their principle of reason.

    2) Exemption of women from the time-based mitzvot, even if I do not know exactly what the principle of reason of this halakha is, it is very clear to assume that the reason lies in the situation of women in the past,
    and therefore today that their situation has changed, the halakha is supposed to change,
    Is it possible to change the halakha even if I do not have a sufficiently clear principle of the bridge?

    3) From the fact that in most halakha, we are not able to give them a clear reason like the laws of purity, etc. , can't we conclude from this that the law should not change according to the principle of their taste?

    1. 1. I don't see a need for this. And since logic says to demand and change, the burden of proof that this is what they intended is on you. Beyond that, even if this was their intention, as long as they did not actually prohibit changing, there is no reason to do so. There is no obligation to the intentions of the rabbis, but to their rulings.
      2. To propose a change, you need to present a concrete midrash. You cannot discuss in such a general way. If you have such a midrash and it is convincing, then oh well. Abu Darham's taste is extremely questionable.
      3. Absolutely not. We can only conclude that we do not understand most of the laws. And that is assuming that you are truly right.

      1. (2. To add that here towards the end, the Sabbath is “possible” regarding a similar proposal regarding a future Sanhedrin. I have a feeling that the distinction between the Sanhedrin and the rest of the TAH is reasonable but I don't know how to justify it. https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%9B%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%92%D7%99%D7%92%D7%94
        )

      2. If the law needs to change because of its Midrash,
        laws whose meaning we do not know, and therefore we do not change them, is it not reasonable to say that the laws we follow are probably wrong?
        After all, the reality of life has changed in every respect, and therefore it is more reasonable to say that the law has changed than to say that it stands until we know what its Midrash is

  26. Is there a connection between the fact that the rabbi writes logically and the fact that the rabbi studied the logical deduction chapter in Rabbi Amiel's book?

    Just curious

    1. There doesn't seem to be any connection. I don't remember if I studied and I certainly don't remember what he writes.

  27. I heard in a class that the Rabbi brought Abu Darham regarding positive commandments that time apparently requires. There is another precedent here for preserving Midrashic teachings, even if the Rabbi does not agree with it.

  28. 1. The Gemara states several times that the ruling of the Sages [even though the reason is known] is to be abrogated by
    the second month of the month of Galyot.. [The reason is due to doubt in the regularity of the month]
    However, even if the reason is known and it is known that the prohibition does not exist now, the matter is prohibited in the change.
    [Therefore, we find regulations that do have a change, such as Galyot water, which is permitted today [this is how the Rema ruled]..
    2. We find even To be lenient, we remain in the ruling of the Sages and do not say to be stricter [such as stains that can be hung up to the size of a grain of rice on a table, even though there is no table today,
    3. If the Torah wrote that women are disqualified from testifying and it was written that they are not knowledgeable about what is happening in the world [by the way, this is learned from ”And the two men stood”], can we also say that today this does not apply?
    4. By the way, what is the reason that women are disqualified? [I once heard that they are disqualified because they do not distinguish between reality and imagination (see the Mizrahim entry)
    Is this true?
    5. According to what you say, is it said that a certain type of people (ultra-Orthodox, for example) who are not knowledgeable about what is happening in the world are disqualified from testifying by virtue of the same interpretation you gave to the prohibition of women's testimony?

    1. 1. Indeed, the Maimonides and the Rabbis disagreed on this in the Rabbinate. But I am talking about Torah law, and the rabbis have done so more than once (you will find many examples in Rabbi Neriah Gotal's book The Change of Nature in the last chapter).
      3. I think so. I would say that the Torah spoke in the present tense and in fact intended to disqualify those who are not knowledgeable about the realities of the world, which at that time were women.
      4. That is the discussion here. I understand that Mizrahi are also disqualified from testifying? It seems to me that you are disqualified for the same reason.
      5. I do not think there is obvious ignorance here. By the way, in the Gemara itself, they disqualified those who do not deal with the settlement of the world.

  29. One of the most fascinating posts.
    Regarding a woman's testimony, I didn't see any mention of the woman's dependence on her husband. It is more difficult for a woman who is subject to influence and pressure from a husband who is not an honest person to testify freely and objectively. This was certainly true in the past when she was completely dependent on him, even financially, and it is not unreasonable today. Even today, an average woman may be more subject to influence, pressure, and blackmail from her husband than the other way around.
    And may the independent and strong women who are far from such situations forgive me.

    1. זו אחת הסיבות למניעת עדות קרובים (הערה ל'עדות אישה') says:

      In the case of a woman's testimony, the first ones said that it was a matter of "decrease in the testimony of a woman" because a woman is not a member of the family.

      In testimony in a case involving someone outside the family circle, pressure from the husband is not so relevant, unless the husband touches on the matter, and then we start to worry about the woman's involvement. The consideration of pressure from relatives serves as a reason to avoid the testimony of relatives, both in Jewish law and in legal systems around the world (see the article "Testimony of Relatives: A Comparative Review," on the Knesset website), either out of concern that the testimony will be biased due to family pressure, or out of concern that relationships within the family will be undermined.

      Regarding the testimony of a woman, the first ones said that it was a matter of "decrease in the testimony of a woman," since a woman is also faithful to the strict prohibitions of purity and kashrut. And since there is no defect in a woman's loyalty, there is room for regulations that allow a woman to testify when she has vital information that cannot be obtained without her testimony. The Rema has already mentioned the ancient rule of accepting a woman's testimony regarding events in which men are not present. And Professor Avi Weinrot expanded on this in the chapter "Woman in the Judicial Process" (part of his book "Feminism and Judaism." It can be viewed on the "Da'at" website).

      Some have justified the avoidance of a woman's testimony in court by the bad feeling she will feel due to a difficult "two-and-a-half-hour interrogation" in which the litigants and their attorneys will try to undermine her credibility and present her as a liar. We found that the Sages excused a woman who claimed her address in the court because no one wants their wife to be humiliated in the court, especially since being subjected to cross-examination is humiliation. A judge also has a serious discomfort in questioning a witness. On the one hand, he must interrogate without bias and not avoid embarrassing questions, and on the other hand, he may be punished by the laws of heaven for causing her to be unfaithful, no less than a husband who arrived home late and was punished by heaven for making his wife cry. In short: questioning a witness in the court is mentally difficult for both the interrogated and the interrogator. And the Torah and the Sages did not feel that they would be accused of patronage.

      With greetings, Hasdai Bezalel Duvdevani Kirshen-Kavas

  30. Thank you, and there can still be a problem with the credibility of a person's testimony when he is not independent and free.
    The reasons you gave are really very good, but they do not concern the credibility of the testimony itself. And it is difficult to see how women's testimony is categorically rejected, except for specific matters or when there is no choice, just because of that.

    1. She is the giver. If there were a fear of biasing the woman's testimony, how would we correct this fear when her testimony is needed? However, if the reason is to protect the woman from the suffering of interrogation. In this there is room to say that in a place of great need, the Sages did not waive her testimony.

      With greetings, Ch. B. Dak.

  31. Beautiful and well explained.
    Some of my comments:
    A. There is also a reasonable possibility that some of the laws were intended to create reality and not just reflect it. The desire that a woman not get her hands dirty in the world of buying and selling and be obligated to the obligations of witnesses with all the difficulty that entails. Likewise, exemption from Torah study is intended so that she can free up time to engage in parenting and family, and the Torah obligation will be an obligation only on the man and not on her. I completely accept the simple midrashic approach, but to me it is not at all simple in many cases (unlike the cases you mentioned, of no one breaking the law within his time and it is better to do so than to do so, where the reason is actually explained in the statement itself). Of course, there was inferior treatment of women in the past, but there was also the virtue of homemaking and modesty and it is difficult to decide for what reason exactly the law was born and therefore it is difficult to change it. Moreover, in the true development of things, in issues where the testimony of a woman is very significant, her testimony is indeed accepted in one way or another

    B. Rabbi Ido Pechter's book that you referred to seems to me to be completely different from what you wrote. The book does not discuss the essence, but rather seeks a reasonable halachic adaptation to what the religious of the continuum actually do. Above, you wrote in response that it is demagogy to claim this, it is not. Because there is no substantive discussion (like yours in the article) regarding the reason for the obligation, etc., which can sometimes also give rise to serious issues, although it turns out that most of the time it will be for the benefit of the community.

    C. You are quite confusing and generalizing all the students of Rabbi Kook under the umbrella of the Haredi, which in your opinion is Haredi conservatism. Although the description mainly corresponds to Mount Moriah. Most Yeshivah religious Zionism is very far from this. It certainly does not have a complex with the Haredim. The example of not inviting Bennett to the Rabbinical Center is also debatable, of course. But he betrayed us as his voters (I don't know if this is agreed upon, but it seems that most of his voters do not support him today), and took a significant step to form a government with Arabs. We are allowed not to accept it, it is actually the last thing we can do, and I am glad that we did. All the comparisons to Bibi are irrelevant because even if he had done it or not - it is possible that his public of supporters would have stood behind him. Here he misled his voters and chose a different path. We have the right to protest.

    1. A. You offer interpretive alternatives and that is perfectly fine. But the principled logic is certainly correct. I am not discussing here the question of whether women should be practically trained to testify, but rather the type of argument. Beyond that, the question is whether there is any point in a halakhic policy that is designed to keep women at home in the law of testimony when in all other aspects she walks headlong into the streets.
      B. I am not familiar with Rabbi Pechter's book and therefore could not claim anything about it. From what he wrote, I did get the impression that there was no theoretical work on types of argument, but as mentioned, I have not read it. And I am really not in favor of defending the religious of the continuum except where they are right. My goal is not to defend and extol honesty and save, but to clarify the truth. If according to the truth, they are all criminals, then this is the truth and I have no interest in changing it.
      C. Where did I say that these are all students of Rabbi Kook? I really do not think so. A significant number of them are not Haredi. I prefer not to get into Bennett and Bibi here, and certainly not for the invitation at the Rabbi Center, the discussion is out of proportion. There is an esoteric group that decided whether or not to invite so-and-so. May they be healthy.

  32. One point that bothers me a little in analyzing the motives of the Pashto conservative. There are cases where the Pashto conservative accepts the fact that his custom did not reach the halakha of Moses, and yet continues to hold onto his custom. An example you gave is the traditional Haredi clothing (with the parable of the swimsuit). It is clear that the explanation that our ancestors adhered to clothing that fits is the correct one, and at the very least, that the black clothing with its multiple layers is not the correct clothing, because it simply did not exist 1500 years ago. Therefore, the reason for holding onto a custom is not necessarily related to the belief that it is what the Torah has always required of us, such as for second-order gains (separation, singular pride, or whatever you want). And then even according to their method, they are not conservative.

    1. I didn't understand the argument. I commented on the Haredi clothing myself and explained that there is a difference between the ethos and the actual facts. Nor did I say anywhere that holding on to custom always stems from the assumption that the Torah has always required it of us. That's just nonsense.

      1. My argument is that conservatism usually proceeds from a completely pragmatic assumption, and not as a blind belief in its correctness at the level of facts.
        A. We do not know for sure what the full range of reasons were for applying a particular custom.
        B. The continued existence of the tradition does not bother us enough to change it (and if it does bother us very much, then reality will force the change on us anyway)
        C. The metaphysical belief that what needs to happen happens, so we will make every effort to hold on to a tradition that clearly works, and try not to change things for which we are not clear what the consequences will be.

        The combination of B and C brings about conservatism that looks like something ideological, but in fact it is a (justified?) fear of change.
        That is, I disagree with you that the characteristic of the Pashto conservative stems primarily from adherence to the original text (because it is the truth), such as adherence to tradition (even if it does not adhere to the Pashto of the Bible, and even if it is quite clear that the prohibition of eating milk with fish originated in error) for the purpose of preventing disastrous errors.

  33. “I will ignore here the claim that this is a requirement of a reason for reading. The rule that does not require a reason for reading is stated only for laws that are written in the commentary and not for laws that are taught in midrashim, since there, as stated, the reason is always in the background”.
    And yet, what is the explanation for this rule that does not require a reason for reading. After all, there is also a reason there and we have the most plausible possibility? I returned to the column because I saw in the Ritva”a in the Book of Remembrance, Parashat Va'techanan, which writes “And he who wishes to examine the path that teaches [is perplexed by many commandments] will find that his opinion is that there are commandments that, although they were given to generations, were essentially according to that generation to which they were given”. In other words, he is saying here that many of the Rambam's reasons were already in his day like water bottles on a rainy day from the famous parable, meaning that commandments that were useful and necessary many years ago but are no longer relevant today, and it seems that this did not bother the Rambam at all, and after all, the Rambam came to settle the commandments for the people of his generation and how did their own opinion settle on such historical reasons that the need to observe them today is actually simplistic conservatism, but their opinion rested on their water bottles and the reason is from then on, that is excellent. [However, the Ritva there continues and explains the benefit that still exists in that the reason is for their generation and the commandment for generations – “and from now on it will be a great distinction, yes, for every generation, as in ‘Aliyah to your children, write’’ “. And furthermore, in Parashat Vayikra it appears that he believes that Maimonides' reasons are only a means to refute the heretics.

    1. Interesting source. I think this is the prevailing approach.
      I extended my article to the fifth root. There I explained precisely from this reasoning, that the lack of a reason requirement is not because the reasons may be different but from the assumption of the completeness of the biblical formulation (an assumption that itself of course requires discussion). I demonstrated cases where the reason is explicitly stated as “He shall not multiply wives to him, nor shall his heart turn aside”.

  34. Showing a place in the Bible. Letters of Hazo”a Ch”b Letter of Kassad https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46852&st=&pgnum=138&hilite= There is a concern with midrashic conservatism that depends on changing circumstances. The issue is whether to interpret that the ancients said a certain Torah statement because they thought there was a certain factual error or that their words were not related to that factual error. In this case, Hazo”a calls this midrashic conservatism ‘bold stance’ and seems to say that in the place of doubt, we should assume that their words are not related to that factual error and continue to practice simplistic conservatism (do you think so too?).

    “The opinion that there is one of the Rishonim, the late, who disagrees, etc., has already been dropped from the agenda.
    What is still on the agenda is whether the opinion of the Rishonim, the late, was based on the idea that there is no dwelling at the bottom of the globe, and then we will take a bold stand to deviate from the teaching of our rabbis, the late, and actually reverse their sacred words for us and all of Israel, or whether their words have no connection to the question of dwelling at the bottom, etc. And of course, before the matter is concluded, the words of our rabbis, the late, still exist”

    1. As I wrote, in my opinion, if there is doubt, the reasonable and logical explanation is preferable to the assumption that there is another explanation.

      1. You wrote in a column that simplistic conservatism has no holdings against the tendency of the mind to a different conclusion. But I was not precise in my wording and the prediction is commenting on a slightly different matter, what do you do during the time of clarification when negotiations are in full swing and you don't know where they will lean, and in this you seem to be saying that simplistic conservatism has holdings, and in this perhaps so too in your opinion simplistic conservatism has at least this advantage?

        1. Maybe. Although if I already have a position, and the discussion is only between me and others, then I can already prefer my position. Perhaps those who are waiting for the outcome of the discussion between sages or rabbis can prefer the existing bottom line.

          1. Does this also mean that if the sage himself is in reasonable doubt about how to interpret, then he must act in accordance with simplistic conservatism?

    2. B”d 2”b Sivan P”b

      L”G – Shalom Rav,

      It seems that the opinion of the prophet tends to believe that the existence of a settlement in America is not relevant to the definitions of the East and West of the Torah, since his method is that the Torah was given in accordance with the knowledge that existed at the time of the giving of the Torah, in the thousands of years of the Torah.

      Just as the Torah was not given to the ministering angels, but to humans, so the Torah did not require those who obey the commandments to possess knowledge that they were not able to attain. And just as only visible creatures were forbidden, not microscopic creatures (and not the comical Kafshaquil of Moshe Kopel against the waters of the Zionists 🙂 – Thus, it seems that the definitions of East and West were determined according to the knowledge available to the Israelites at the time of the giving of the Torah.

      Furthermore, even at the time of the giving of the Torah, it was known that there were ‘distant islands’ inhabited by humans, but the main settlement was considered to be the continent from the far east to the far west. The existence of a large island in the middle of the ocean ‘beyond the mountains of darkness’ – even if it had been known, it would not have been of any importance in relation to the ‘continental’ civilization to which the Torah refers.

      With blessings, Yekutiel Shneur Zehavi

      1. I have never delved into the issue of the ‘date line’, but from the little I have heard, it seems that even the prophet did not follow literally the statement of the first that the ’end of the East’ is 90 degrees east of Jerusalem, and believed that instead of the Asian continent extending east of 90 degrees – this is also considered ’east’ because it does not appear that there will be a division between two adjacent places on land, and therefore it appears that the &#8217end of the East’ is identical with the coastline of the continent.

        My &#8217homeowners’ opinion (intuition’ in the dark 🙂 would also tend to consider Japan as the East, for two reasons: a. The northern tip of the Asian continent is east of Japan according to the ‘line of longitude’. B. In the minds of the ancient world, which the Torah took into account – the Japanese islands were probably considered the ’end of the East’. But of course, the question is whether a basis for this can be found in the language of Chazal and the Rishonim, etc.

        With greetings, Yakshan”

      2. I don't know the general opinion of the prophet, but in the letter there it seems more likely that the question of whether the lower settlement is relevant will be decided by examining the Rishonim's method on the specific issue and not by such general explanations of the Two Thousand Torahs. Because he strives for the goal of "that their words have no connection to the question of the lower settlement", and he does not mention this general explanation of the Two Thousand Torahs, and also hopes that after negotiations they will reach an agreement, whereas this general explanation does not have much to discuss and how to convince.

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