A Look at the Privatization of Kashrut and, Above All, at the Debate About It (Column 427)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In recent days, the kashrut reform of Minister Matan Kahana passed in the Knesset as part of the Arrangements Law. The Haredim and the national-Haredi (“hardal”) public are furious and explain that this is raising a hand against the Torah of Moses, Reformism, etc., etc.—which plainly shows that something was probably done here in the right direction. On the site here, too, the question was raised as to my view of this reform, and even though our Shatzal has already seasoned us all with a pinch of his learned arguments against the reform.
The law itself (see there p. 1165 and on) is long and convoluted, and it is phrased as a collection of amendments to the existing law (the Kashrut Fraud Law). It’s hard to get into its details, and I also lack practical experience that would allow me to examine whether the law, in its present form, will help improve kashrut and the kashrut system or not. One thing emerges clearly from reading the opinion pieces in the various directions: almost everyone speaking in this field has a stake in it, and many of the claims are not substantive. For example, the Haredim, who as is known always cling exclusively to the state kashrut of the Chief Rabbinate and keep away from private kashrut and privatization—God forbid—are crying out against the privatization and the kashrut disaster it will bring upon us (in general, lately the Haredim are truly concerned for the honor and status of the Chief Rabbinate. Footsteps of the Messiah). Suddenly it turns out that the kashrut of the Chief Rabbinate (a synonym for food that in a Haredi home one would not touch even with a ten-foot pole) is the paragon of virtues, and any deviation from it will lead to public eating of non-kosher food. Supporters of the reform also point to its economic and kashrut advantages (opening the market and breaking the Rabbinate’s monopoly), which doesn’t inspire much confidence in me (since it’s reasonable that at least some of the concerns have merit). Their arguments regarding the welcome (but insufficiently mortal) blow to the status of the Chief Rabbinate are, of course, correct, and need no embellishment.
The Principled Claim
To form a well-based position on the matter, one must know the field and its constraints, and of course go through the wording of the law in detail, hear critiques from all sides, and weigh them. That is hard and complicated work—but fortunately also unnecessary. As I will now explain, my main claim is a priori, and therefore it hardly requires establishing the facts and does not depend on them.
What most of the arguments have in common is that they deal with the level of kashrut and with the advantages and disadvantages of the reform on that axis. The discussion there is: Will the level of kashrut rise or fall? Will people stumble into eating forbidden foods or not? Will the wicked Reform movement gain a foothold in the State of Israel, God forbid? And of course: Are the Tzohar rabbis and all supporters of the reform Reform? And I haven’t even mentioned the chillul Hashem (desecration of God’s name) or kiddush Hashem (sanctification) that will result from the reform. I mean the claims that the reform will endear Judaism and halakha to the general public and lead to kiddush Hashem and more people eating kosher, or alternatively that it will make halakha hateful and bring about its complete collapse and a spiritual apocalypse.
In my eyes, all these claims are irrelevant to the discussion—neither those for nor those against. The debate is not taking place on the relevant plane at all. I support the reform even if it causes thousands of people to eat treif in broad daylight, lowers the level of kashrut to the depths of the Dead Sea, and inflicts a mortal blow on the status of halakha and Judaism in the eyes of the public. Even the welcome blow to the Chief Rabbinate—something that by itself justifies almost any outcome and any price—is not a central argument, though it is connected to my decisive reasoning. My main argument is that every citizen has the right to consume whatever kashrut he or she wants. If someone wishes to eat food according to the kashrut criteria of the Reform Chief Rabbi of Indonesia and Zimbabwe, or of the Dalai Lama’s adjutant (or the Dalai Such-and-Such), then if there is sufficient demand for such kashrut, it should be allowed. My claim is that there is no justification for a monopoly in any field unless there is a market failure that necessitates it—certainly when it comes to a monopoly whose chief aim is the imposition of values on a broad public that does not want them. The fact that this is a monopoly whose main interest is to reinforce the status of a corrupt and sclerotic body like the Chief Rabbinate (continued supply of positions and jobs for “our people”) of course strengthens my claim, but is not essential to it. It follows that the questions of whether the reform will improve or lower the level of kashrut, and whether it will lead to kiddush or chillul Hashem, are simply irrelevant.
The Ideal Model
To my judgment, the ideal model for the kashrut market in a democratic state is a completely open market. Whoever wants to take the name may come and take it. There should be kashrut by Christians, Hindus, Reform Jews, Tzohar, Haredim, the followers of the holy Baba Buba shlita, and anyone else you can imagine—except, of course, the Chief Rabbinate. That is the one body that should in no way be given authority to grant kashrut, since it is a state body and there is no reason for it to function as one of the agents in an open economic market. Needless to say, what I have described here is the mirror image of the current situation, in which only the Chief Rabbinate is authorized to grant kashrut (!!). Let that teach you how far the absurdity goes, and what all the kashrut warriors are defending.
Alongside this open and free market, as with any product that requires expertise and operates by complex criteria, there must be a regulatory body whose role is to ensure that each kashrut system provides what it says it provides. The regulator is not supposed to enter into the criteria themselves and determine what is called kosher and what is not. It is only supposed to ensure transparency and congruence between the product and the promises that accompany it. That’s all. Therefore, this body is certainly not supposed to be run by rabbis. It can consult rabbis as professionals to help check conformity to criteria, but there is no reason to entrust the decision itself to rabbis. As far as I’m concerned, it could be a retired judge or any other credible figure.
From there on, the market should operate freely. The Haredim and hardalniks will disparage everyone else—as is their holy custom—and each member of the public will be able to decide whether to believe them or not, and determine for himself the kashrut he desires, and Zion will be redeemed.
Will the reform improve the state of kashrut? Will it lower prices? Will it prevent people from stumbling into eating treif or not? Will it lead to kiddush or chillul Hashem? I have no idea, and that is also unimportant for the discussion. Personally, it matters to me that people eat kosher, but it matters equally that the decision be in their hands and not handed over to a state-appointed monopoly that enforces it upon them. The state is not supposed to be involved in the way a person chooses to live his life. Just as I would not want the state to force me to eat pork (even if there were a majority for it), so I also don’t want it to force me or others to eat kosher.
Of course, if and when this utopian situation prevails here (fear not—it won’t), I invite anyone who wishes to report whether there was a decline in the level of kashrut, whether there was chillul or kiddush Hashem, whether Tzohar are wicked/Reform/liars or not, and so on. This intellectual debate may well amuse various people, and there is no reason to prevent them from conducting it. A free country—did I mention?
A Few Additions of My Own
By the way, I certainly join the critique of the reform, since as I understand it, it did not actually open the market completely. I saw that a committee of three rabbis (one of whom serves or has served as a city rabbi) is still required to approve each kashrut body that will be authorized to grant certification. This means we will still get only very particular types of certifications, and the business will mostly be run by the same clique as before. Matan Kahana did not really open the market as one should have, and that is very unfortunate.
After a continuation to this kashrut reform that will bring it to fruition (and send the Chief Rabbinate to graze grass in the depths of the Dead Sea), I also expect the opening of the marriage and divorce market in the same way. I am inclined to think likewise even regarding the conversion market (although here it is a more sensitive and complex matter, since it also concerns others). In principle, everything should be open—but also completely transparent. I will add that, unlike the great majority of my colleagues who support the reform and oppose the Chief Rabbinate, I am entirely in favor of “black registries” in which the path of marriage and the personal status of every person are documented. In fact, I don’t think this should be recorded in a black registry but in a transparent one, or in the identity card, or in some other way such that the information is visible and known to anyone with a genuine interest in the matter.
A Note on My Fundamental Viewpoint: Normative Duality
I assume that people committed to halakha—especially those who don’t know my positions—will be surprised to read such an “heretical” text. How does a person committed to halakha allow himself to treat lightly the possibility that the multitudes of the House of Israel will eat non-kosher food? Regardless of whether this is indeed what is expected (I highly doubt it), I actually wrote that even if that is what will happen, I still support the reform. So the question in any case stands. I will explain this briefly here, since I have expanded on it elsewhere (see on this in Column 18, and in greater detail at the beginning of the third book in my trilogy).
My claim is that there is no problem with a person or group having full commitment to several normative systems in parallel—even ones that contradict each other. A person can be wholly loyal to halakha and at the same time loyal to liberal values, even where they clash with halakha. Moreover, when such a conflict exists, halakha does not necessarily prevail. In the third book (and briefly also in Column 15) I explained the logical and theological basis for this claim. Not only is there no contradiction to reason here; there is also no contradiction to commitment to the will of God. My claim there was that halakha is only one system of God’s will, and moral values are also God’s will (of a different kind). Therefore, a clash between morality and halakha is an internal conflict within God’s will and not a conflict between God’s will and external values. If liberal values are my moral conception, then, from my perspective, God wants them as well alongside His will expressed in halakha.
You may say that only a heretic like me would think so, and that I am in a minority view. I am not at all sure of that. It seems to me that most religious people are not interested in stoning Sabbath desecrators, flogging pork-eaters, blowing up all churches (even in a hypothetical situation in which our hand is strong), compelling the entire public to eat kosher and keep the Sabbath (including penal sanctions for offenders), etc., etc. When you ask people, many of them (the honest and straightforward among them) will admit that this is indeed their view, but they will explain it by saying that our hand is not strong, or that at present this would cause more harm than benefit. It is difficult for them to say—even to themselves—that they support going against halakha (which requires coercion and punishment). But in my opinion, these are rationalizations given after the fact. In truth, what motivates most people, as I estimate it, is a liberal conception according to which it is not morally proper to impose values on a person who does not believe in them, even if in my opinion he is mistaken. My claim is that a person committed to halakha can indeed oppose a “halakhic state” (at least in its fundamentalist sense; see Column 18).
A Few Examples: The Categorical Imperative
To sharpen this further, think of a situation in which, in Belgium, Jews are forced to desecrate the Sabbath, pray in a church, or eat pork or the Eucharistic bread. What would you say about that? Well, no need to go so far. What do you say about the ban on kosher slaughter that exists in many European countries? I won’t try to ask you about the burqa ban and the bans on building mosques that exist in some countries there, although my view of them is similar to the bans on kosher slaughter (on the contrary, the ban on kosher slaughter is, in my view, far more justified—there is at least concern there for animal suffering). And what about religious coercion in Iran or anti-religious coercion in the former USSR? Is it legitimate for any state to forbid us to marry according to the law of Moses and Israel? It was quite a while ago, but for some reason it seems to me that there was some criticism in the religious public of the Soviet policy toward Judaism. In short, I assume most of us will agree that all this is neither desirable nor proper. So why is it legitimate for us to forbid others in the State of Israel to marry (or eat) as they understand it? When a state imposes religious values on its citizens—even ones I myself believe in—the situation can deteriorate to places none of us would want to be. A democratic state should leave to its citizens the decision about how to live their lives, except in very exceptional cases.
It is important to clarify that my claim here is not merely an expression of fear. My problem is not only that if I impose on others, then when their hand is strong they will impose on me. That is certainly a problem, and I do not belittle it. But my essential problem with a policy of coercion is the categorical imperative, by which I examine my actions according to the criterion that I would want them to be a general law. If you like, it is also a corollary of Hillel the Elder’s rule: What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. I have pointed out more than once the mistake in understanding the categorical imperative as if it were a direct consequentialist argument (see, for example, Columns 122 and 334). The categorical imperative is not based on fear of others’ retribution (that if I steal, they will steal from me). It is a moral principle that says my action should be examined hypothetically: What would the situation be if everyone acted this way? I assume that none of us would want a state law that forces upon us a position that contradicts our values. Therefore, coercion is wrong even if, in the present case, it suits our own positions.
Counter-Arguments: Deafness to Comparisons
At this point the expected claims may arise: Well, but there is no comparing our coercion of others to coercion of us, for we are right. As is known, what we do was received directly from the mouth of the Almighty. And, with all due respect to the categorical imperative and Kant’s inventions, halakha explicitly says that people must be coerced to fulfill commandments, and therefore loyalty to halakha requires coercion (and hence whoever rejects coercion is not loyal to halakha). Our reason does not stand against a divine command. These arguments strike me as very strange, as I will now explain.
First, halakha—almost entirely—is a human creation by people like you and me. Sages throughout the generations interpreted the Torah and halakha and reached certain conclusions. I, and all of us, are meant to do the same. There is no “word of God” here in the sense of the source (only in the sense of sanctity and obligation).
Second, to my judgment the categorical imperative has halakhic standing (see the columns cited). Rabbi Unterman has an article in which he interprets the term “for the sake of the ways of peace” in a similar fashion (and derives conclusions from it, such as the duty to save a non-Jew on the Sabbath and the prohibition on destroying churches in the State of Israel—seemingly in direct contradiction to explicit halakhic directives). We must remember that almost every group or state among those I described above (Iran, the USSR) thinks it is right and others are wrong. So why should we be permitted to coerce, and when others do this to us it is outrageous?!
We have a problematic tendency to ignore such comparisons. Thus, for example, we are very angry at countries that did not bomb the extermination camps in the Holocaust, but today, when we have an army, we do not entertain the thought of carrying out military actions to save populations in distress in various places around the world (to say nothing of supplying weapons and maintaining ties with regimes that create those distresses). We are very angry at countries that do not allow Jews freedom of worship (as the State of Israel on the Temple Mount)—and rightly so—but we grant ourselves the right to deny others freedom of worship or simply freedom. We forbid ourselves and our children to read “heretical” literature that argues against Jewish faith, while it is obvious to us that a person raised in a secular home is at fault, for he is required to inquire and reach the correct conclusions (=ours). One could go on at length with more examples, but the principle is clear. Each of us understands that value-or religious-coercion is illegitimate, and therefore it is wrong to ignore this when we ourselves do it to others.
So what do we do with halakha? It is hard to deny that halakha obligates coercion. On this I will say a few things: First, it is not true that it obligates coercion of people who do not think so. In my view, halakhic coercion addresses only deliberate offenders who know their Master and rebel against Him, and not those who think differently. Second, even if this were indeed the halakha, we should refuse it (conscientious objection) and say: “Had God told it to me through Joshua ben Nun, I would not have obeyed.” A person must understand how and where to implement halakhic directives. In the circumstances prevailing in our world and society today, coercion has no place. I am convinced everyone understands this, including the great majority of decisors, but it is hard to admit it; therefore they hang on technical arguments, such as “our hand is not strong” or “for the ways of peace” (in the accepted interpretation, not Rabbi Unterman’s). But, as I said, this is rationalization and post-factum justification. It is clear to everyone that even if we had no such justification, there is no place to apply these halakhic directives in today’s reality. Call it “Reform”—to your health. I assume you already know I am not afraid of labels and classifications.
Bottom line: Try to answer honestly the following question. Suppose our hand were strong and the nations of the world allowed us to do whatever we wished; would you support an “Iranian” state that coerces Sabbath observance, kosher eating, religious worship, and the like? I believe that in a situation where this dilemma would be realistic and placed before us for a practical decision (and not only an academic question), most of the religious and Haredi public (and most rabbis, too) would not support it. What explanations would we get? How would people reconcile that position with commitment to halakha? “Our hand is strong,” etc., etc. But that already depends on the speaker’s self-awareness and honesty—and no less on his logical-philosophical-exegetical skill.
So much for my main points. I now wish to append a few remarks on two texts that deal with this reform. I chose two texts that were sent to me in the past; of course there are many others. These are relatively substantive texts (unlike many others), and both come from people with a religious-Zionist stance—and precisely because of that I chose them, to sharpen and clarify my principled position.
Rabbi Yoel Bin-Nun
Rabbi Yoel, as is his way, says the opposite of everyone. Not only does he support the kashrut reform, but in his view it is in the Chief Rabbinate’s own interest, and it will improve the level of kashrut among the broader public. I will not address here his stringency to eat only under the supervision of the Chief Rabbinate and not under the various “badatzim” (independent ultra-Orthodox kashrut courts). (I could perhaps agree with that if, like him, I viewed the Chief Rabbinate positively; then I could even enlist the categorical imperative.) I will add that, contrary to him, I see nothing wrong with a rabbi appointed over a kashrut system not eating the products it supervises. On the contrary, Rabbi Yoel’s proposal to arrange kashrut with a hierarchical ranking of levels (different numbers of stars) reflects exactly that conception. The rabbi supervises according to the level dictated by the Rabbinate (one star), but he himself wishes to eat food at a higher kashrut level (two stars). What’s wrong with that? I hope you will also allow me to skip over the “deep” explanation he offers for the stewardess’s kashrut; I will merely permit myself to note that my amazement at that explanation is somewhat less than what he described in his words (I also wonder which yeshiva the supervisor who traveled with him studied in, that he had never heard anything so deep in his life).
My main remark on his words is that he essentially recommends the reform because it will improve the state of kashrut and prevent many from eating non-kosher food. In my view, as noted, that is an irrelevant argument. The considerations of chillul Hashem and future kosher eating, even if correct (and I am far from sure of that), are not relevant to the discussion. A democratic state is not meant to act to prevent its citizens from eating non-kosher food. Its sole function in this sphere is to allow every citizen to live as he understands, as much as possible without harming others. All the rest is a matter for discussion and decisions among the citizens themselves.
However, in principle, what he says in his bottom line accords with me. He essentially proposes that the Chief Rabbinate be a regulator, not one of the agents operating on the ground. That is entirely parallel to the model I described above. His proposal that there be different kashrut “stars” expressing different levels is also acceptable to me. Yet I must note that even under the current situation there are stars ranking the level of kashrut. The distinction between “mehadrin” kashrut and regular kashrut already exists today in the Rabbinate. But contrary to Rabbi Yoel’s words, in my view there should be many stars and not just two—and, more important, it should not be the Rabbinate that determines them but the kashrut bodies themselves. In addition, there should not be a ranking of kashrut levels at all—and certainly not one determined by the Rabbinate.
In principle, at least from the state’s perspective, these are different kinds of kashrut and not necessarily different levels. Each person or group will be able to set for themselves a ranking and hierarchy of kashrut levels as they understand them. Take, for example, the “mehadrin” kashrut during the sabbatical year (shemita) practiced among the Haredim. To avoid the prohibition of “lo techonem” in the sale of land to a non-Jew (heter mechira), they scrupulously consolidate the hold of our cousins on the land of Israel by purchasing their produce instead of Jewish produce. It is hard not to be impressed by this splendid halakhic and logical consideration. That is what they call “mehadrin shemita.” Even if you are impressed by the magnificent logic, I assume that at least you can understand that I do not see such kashrut as a higher level (more stars) than the heter mechira. The same goes for “otzar beit din,” Haredi or not; opinions are divided as to whether it is preferable to the heter mechira or not, and the determination of hierarchy is not supposed to be made by the Rabbinate, nor by any other regulator. Assigning different kashrut grades is possible only when the criteria are agreed upon.
In short, as far as I am concerned, let there be as many stars in the kashrut “hierarchy” as the sand on the seashore, so long as the consumer knows what each star means, and so long as the number of stars does not express a ranking of better or worse kashrut. The regulator is supposed only to supervise credibility and ensure transparency, not to set criteria and rank kashrut bodies.
Kosharot
Another article that was sent to me quite a while ago was published by the “Kosharot” organization. It was published in the propaganda pamphlet “Olam Katan,” which is very dear to me indeed—and that already says something about its content and thrust. But, as noted, our concern here is a substantive examination of the arguments themselves.
Already in the opening paragraph the author, Rabbi Moshe Katz, presents the framework of the discussion: The question is whether such a reform will improve the kashrut system or not. As noted, for me this starting point already renders the discussion unnecessary. That is not supposed to be the goal of the reform, and that is not how it should be assessed. It seems the author takes the opportunity to settle accounts with Tzohar kashrut and chooses it as an example from which to learn about the flaws of a policy of privatized kashrut. He compares the criteria they published with their implementation on the ground. He points to several cases in which their own promises and criteria were not upheld. True, he concludes from this that their kashrut level is low—a conclusion that depends on one’s outlook, of course. But the claim that they do not meet their own criteria is substantive and certainly worth checking and discussing.
I do not have the tools to do that, and therefore I will again relate to his words in general, particularly to their logic. First, I assume Tzohar’s criteria were composed on the assumption that they would be allowed to operate freely on the ground. When the Rabbinate narrows their steps and exploits the state-given monopoly to pester and obstruct them (as is its way always), I am not very surprised that they don’t quite manage to meet their criteria (mainly those that concern competition with the Rabbinate).
Second, his words imply that the Rabbinate is the epitome of perfection—i.e., that it has no cases in which flaws are found in its supervision. Reading this, I did not know whether to laugh or to cry. The small number of cases he brings regarding Tzohar’s supervision is a bad joke next to the hundreds of hair-raising stories I have heard in Bnei Brak (and not only there) about the supervision of the Chief Rabbinate, and no less about the vile and corrupt way the Rabbinate handles failures even when they are discovered—and even when they are publicized.
Third, even if Tzohar’s kashrut organization is failing and causes others to fail, why does that say anything general about privatization? Does the existence of one failing company justify preventing us from opening the market to private companies altogether? This is a well-known communist type of argument—but a failing one. So shut Tzohar down, and that’s that. Why, because of them, do you prevent me from opening a kashrut organization that is stricter than a “badatz” (pardon me—even stricter than the Rabbinate)?
Above all, the logic of his argument fails at its foundation. If and when there is a reform that brings about an orderly privatization of kashrut, one of its main components is the establishment of effective regulation whose chief concern is oversight of these bodies, particularly that they live up to their own promises and criteria. The regulator is responsible for the transparency of the criteria and for their implementation. That is precisely how one should prevent the failings he describes. Therefore, his arguments are arguments for the reform, not against it. Incidentally, as I already wrote, the same failings (and likely far more) exist in the Rabbinate’s own supervision. When it becomes a regulator—or if they will be wise enough to appoint a different regulator (which of course makes much more sense, and therefore has no chance of actually happening)—its own failings will be prevented thanks to that regulation. The reform is supposed to improve also, and perhaps mainly, the Rabbinate’s supervision (even if it remains an active agent on the ground under another regulator).
In conclusion, this text contains a set of tendentious arguments that start from a mistaken premise, employ examples whose representativeness I do not know (perhaps they are), without any comparison to the competing system (which is likely far worse), and with arguments drawn from a single example from which he somehow infers a general conclusion—whereas even with respect to that very example, the conclusion fails.
It seems, however, that Matan Kahana’s reform does not actually do all this—thanks, among other things, to the obstacles placed in its path by those Haredi and hardal bodies (who are very concerned for kashrut, of course). Beyond that, it seems to me that even a perfect reform will not succeed in correcting the failings of the Chief Rabbinate. It has already been proven more than once that its sclerotic systems have no remedy. It has no guard but a knife, and its shattering—that is its purification.
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Haha, Joel Ben Nun says the opposite of everyone haha
Come on
He is more expected than the Bibi Maronite
A Bentist with an intellectual aroma
You are not careful with the words of the rabbi.
The rabbi wrote, “Rabbi Yoel, as usual, says the opposite of everyone else.”
And we seem to pronounce the word “as usual” as the word “as my way” and I am fine.
He is Yoel Ben Nun, he is Michael Avraham.
“The right of every citizen to consume whatever kosher he wants. If he wants to eat food according to the kasher criteria of the Reform Chief Rabbi of Indonesia and Zimbabwe”
This is already true today. The question is what the law will allow to write ‘kosher’ without it being a fraud on the consumer.
The level of state intervention can be divided into 3:
1. Government monopoly – The state defines a body that is the only one that has the authority to deal with the issue (fire departments, for example).
2. Government regulation – The state defines criteria and bodies can comply with them (health insurance funds, for example).
3. Liberal anarchy – The state has no say in the issue and everyone does what they want (the high-tech market, for example).
It is also necessary to distinguish between the state's "ownership" of the act and ownership of the definition only –
Not only am I not allowed to define myself as a fire and rescue service, but I am not allowed to function as such in practice.
On the other hand, although I am not allowed to write ‘kosher’, I am completely allowed to supervise businesses that are interested in it (pre-reform noon).
The situation in Israel was very little ‘coercion’ – Overall, ownership of the word ‘kosher’ belonged to the government body (the Minister).
The reform moves ownership of the word from position ‘1’ to position ‘2’.
There is zero ownership in advance of the act itself, and anyone who wants kosher under the supervision of the Reform Chief Rabbi of Zimbabwe can receive it and pay for it.
This is naivety. If you can't write that the product is kosher, then no one will consume it. That's the accepted term in the field. It's like saying that anyone can be a shoemaker, but only I am allowed to write about myself as a shoemaker. Incidentally, it goes without saying that businesses and supervisions that did not write the word “kosher” also faced lawsuits and harassment from the rabbinate.
And if it's just about owning a word, then what's all the fuss about? Why did all the lovers of Zion and the rabbinate come together?
Harassment and lawsuits are technical details, not the essence.
Beyond that, in practice there are hundreds of businesses today with daycare, even though it is without the word ‘kosher’.
But Sandler is a great example. Anyone can define themselves as a ‘sandler’ or a ‘programmer’, but can anyone define themselves as a ‘construction engineer’ or a ‘doctor’? Does this column call for such anarchy? Will any clique of healers with natural oils be allowed to define themselves as a health insurance fund?
These are fundamental differences in the question of monopoly-anarchy:
What does the state own (security services – yes. Medical services – no. Defining medicine – yes).
The noise, of course, has nothing to do with kosher or the cost of living, but rather the most important thing - a livelihood. The salaries of quite a few people from a certain political affiliation may be affected, and it's always nice to shout about it, although it's nicer to find another field of activity.
These are not technical details, because of their important practical significance. Your distinction between a doctor and a cobbler is correct, of course, but even with regard to a doctor, every person has the right to go to any person they want to be cured and also to call him a doctor. Beyond that, kashrut is similar to a cobbler and not a doctor, because here there are no objective and agreed-upon indicators.
The division is “agreed objective metrics”?
According to this, ‘programmer’ for example should be an official title (from the state's perspective) and not an anarcho-liberal one.
What you write about medicine is true today with regard to kashrut –
Anyone can offer medicine/kashrut according to their opinion, anyone can consume medicine/kashrut according to their opinion, but only those whom the state recognizes as a doctor/kashrut provider are allowed to publicly define themselves as such.
The ’original’ division stems from classic governmental (/democratic) paternalism –
The reasonable citizen may be stupid,
therefore the government (elected by the people) will protect him through regulations.
This is how she will protect him from receiving a fake medicine from a pagan doctor and this is how she will protect him from receiving a fake kosher from a reformist.
Here are some possible counterarguments:
1. The liberal-anarchist argument – We don't need *some ignorant MK* to make decisions for us because we are smarter.
This argument is almost always heard from the more intelligent segment of the population, the one that really doesn't need the government's protection, and therefore its problematic nature is clear.
2. Point division – In subject X (medicine) government protection is needed (because the consequences are drastic), in subject Y (kosher) government protection is not needed (because I ate a big deal that wasn't kosher).
Conceptually, this is an excellent argument, in practice, each case needs to be examined.
3. Technical problem – Government protection in a certain area is simply not successful.
“I guess you already know that I'm not afraid of headlines and labels.:
Not that you're not afraid of labels, you make every effort to use the most provocative wording possible *in order* to be labeled.
Tzachi, what do you think motivates the desire to be labeled? Flattery to a certain clique?
In my opinion, you are ignoring another important aspect of the connection between religion and state in kashrut. The violation of the religious freedom of kashrut providers. The current situation allows the state and the High Court to interfere in the decisions of rabbis regarding kashrut. The reform, which I actually support, in my opinion has actually exacerbated the problem in this aspect. I wrote about this on Shabbat: https://www.inn.co.il/news/531294
I didn't understand. What's the problem with kashrut coming under the High Court? It's very good that it's happening. Anyone who wants state kashrut does indeed have to submit themselves to the High Court. That doesn't mean that the judges will decide what is kosher and what is not, but they definitely need to examine whether the decisions are made properly (which unfortunately they don't do today, for example in the case of a marriage registration that I was involved in, and the rabbinate lied to the High Court with a resolute face, and yet the High Court did not intervene).
After all, it's not possible to receive authority from the state and leave full and exclusive authority in your hands. This is of course what the rabbinate wants to achieve, but it's futile. They constantly claim that other entities should not interfere in rabbinical decisions, and they also claim against seculars being involved in appointing rabbis, but at the same time they want authority over seculars as well. If you have authority over seculars by law, you must subject yourself to the law and allow seculars to be involved.
As long as the reform does not completely privatize kashrut and leaves authority in the hands of the law (at least as a regulation), it is necessarily subject to the High Court, and that is indeed how it should be.
I agree with you. But that's exactly the problem. It was possible to privatize kashrut with minimal regulation and allow more religious freedom. The fact that they didn't do that is exactly the problem. The problem is precisely that the rabbis want to receive authority from the state and remain with full autonomy, and that really doesn't go together.
In fact, the majority of the Haredi public (and also the minority of the religious public) would definitely rule an Iranian state here if they could. The reason for this is simple - for the Haredi, secularism is not the result of pure intellectual recognition as the rabbi presents, but rather the takeover of instinct. In other words, even if they secretly agree with the rabbi that it is better to be tolerant, they feel compelled to go along with the fanatical Haredi position because in their opinion this is authentic Judaism. This is why they allow themselves to behave disrespectfully and violently towards secular people (and towards themselves). There is no respect for the opinion of others in the Haredi world. The Mahadirin will also add the prohibition to follow your heart, which is a sin to prevent free inquiry and freedom of speech. We think that such a state will collapse within a week, but in fact fanatical states like Iran are proving their survival capabilities beyond all expectations.
Here is a link to a post I wrote on the subject:
https://yuddaaled.wordpress.com/2018/07/27/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94/
“Now the expected claims may arise: Well, but our coercion on others should not be compared to coercion on us, after all we are right”.
I am honored to think and raise this expected claim, that there is a difference between a policeman who forces a thief to refrain from stealing and a thief who forces a policeman to help him steal. Why do you think a thief cannot say to the policeman, Mr. Policeman, you are very opposed to me forcing you to help me steal, so get out of my way.
On a moral level, it is clear (to me at least) that this expected claim is so trivially true that I am truly amazed to see the ease with which you dismiss it. And on a halakhic level, you presented two reasons (that the halacha is a human creation, and that the halacha recognizes the categorical imperative and prohibits coercion) and both of them are unnecessary because, just as the continuation of the halacha does require coercion in certain matters. Therefore, all that remains is your claim that the sweet and flowery halakha does not force anything on heretics at all. Even if this claim is true, the coercion in question here is very limited: coercion not to use the term “kosher” without the rabbinate approving it. After all, even without the reform, there are shops that are not kosher and there is Zohar. Therefore, comparing this to coercing people not to desecrate the Sabbath or to kill Sabbath desecrators is quite demagogic. Acts that every day a state carries out coercion to promote the general interests of some citizens, for example, the coercion of a one-time tax. Every law is coercive and I find no logic in starting to cry out in principle about a particular law “coercive coercion”. And even if the halakha does not *require* such coercion, that still does not mean that such coercion is forbidden if the benefit outweighs the harm.
This is a delicate point. In my opinion, the average Haredi does find himself committed to halacha and is certain that it is the authentic halacha, but at the same time it is clear to him that this is not the right thing to do. He just does not know how to give himself an account of why and how this is consistent with a commitment to halacha. That is why I wrote the trilogy and this column, to allow anyone who feels this way to conceptualize their feelings and understand that there is no need to adopt the Haredi position and that there is no contradiction between this and a commitment to halacha.
The indicator of whether a state will collapse or not is irrelevant. The question is whether this is the right thing to do.
The difference is that the thief harms others, and whoever eats unkosher food is his own business. And even if the religious think that he harms the general interest, that is a matter of dispute. The harm that the thief causes to the stolen is also agreed upon for the thief. Therefore, this comparison is apt to be forgiven.
The comparison to more severe coercion does not require that the harm be of the same intensity. Coercion is inappropriate regardless of the intensity. If there is a reason that justifies it, then the severity of the coercion must be measured against the severity of the reason.
A. If an external police officer is allowed to force a thief not to harm others, even if the thief himself holds a moral system that justifies this particular theft, that is, he uses his own private values to force others. The thief agrees that damage was caused but does not necessarily agree that it is ”right” to prevent this damage.
B. Everyone admits that serious coercions are problematic and everyone also admits that minor coercions (almost every law on earth) are justified in principle, the whole question is a question of pricing, and in the column I understood that you emphasized that you are not interested in pricing (how much will they make a mistake about kosher, how easy it will be to obtain kosher food, etc.) but rather argue in principle against coercion, and then demonstrate the problematic nature of coercion with serious coercions that everyone admits are forbidden. This seems a very dubious move on a logical level.
A. Well, that's just formalistic chatter.
B. Pricing is irrelevant here because it's none of your business what I eat.
B. I think it's my business what you eat.
Well-founded.
The harm to religion caused by its coercion must also be taken into account. Nor can the economic benefits that the reform will bring be ignored.
“You can't force people to eat kosher”. This is a very, very inaccurate statement. Even so, no one forces anyone to eat kosher, there are dozens of restaurants in Israel that serve succulent shrimp to diners and hundreds (if not thousands) that operate without a kosher certificate.
The argument is that there should be minimal regulation for a restaurant that wants to be considered kosher. Anyone who decides (based solely on their personal opinion!) to eat kosher, will do so without any deception on the part of the body responsible for kasher (which is not exhaustive, or strictly adheres to the necessary details and halachic grammar).
Are you in favor of every homeopath being able to open a clinic on their own that can consider themselves authorized to dispense medicines and the public will decide for themselves whether it is right for them or not?
Totally in favor. As long as everything is transparent.
Either way, a large part of your article is wrong. The comparison to the prohibition of slaughter or the compulsion to eat pork is simply incorrect. As mentioned, here everyone is given the option to eat non-kosher.
Secondly, I don't really agree with your approach. It is clear that the lack of regulation will open the door to fraud, ”cutting corners” and thousands of innocent people who will fall for the trap. Does free choice mean that people will lead their son to death in the name of that choice (as happened with the Haredi father who murdered his son after a ”doctor” drugged him). Is the capitalist approach correct in such a sweeping way?
I am also not convinced that it is correct economically, when it comes to a small country, where a large number of competitors can lead to the total collapse of sectors in the economy.
As a side note, it would be advisable for you to write additional columns on the privatization of health funds, the electric company, etc. There, it is certainly more needed, since it does not require people's understanding, but is based on subjective experience. If it is truly individual freedom that is burning in you and not clashing with the rabbinate
Beshav Nadiq: Are you in favor of the homeopath presenting himself as a “doctor”? Without saying that he is a homeopath (and I am not an infidel in homeopathy)? After all, the Reformers provide “kashrut” abroad (it is just a concern for cleanliness)? And they do not bother to explain to the diners that there is some difference between Reform “kashrut” and real “kashrut”. Where exactly is the transparency here? It is clear that the Reformers are producing an imitation of Orthodoxy, so the lack of transparency is inherent. The same applies to Reform conversion.
Correction: “Let's clarify his question:….”
If that's the accuracy of the question, I wouldn't want to think about the accuracy of the original question. What does all of this have to do with what the Reformers are doing here or anywhere else? I argue that anyone can give kosher when the regulator ensures transparency. That's all.
Because you are in favor of Reform kosher as well (as long as there is transparency, etc.). That's what I understood from the article. But that's exactly the point: How do you make sure that people like them, whose reality is to deceive people into thinking they are the same as the Orthodox, will inform their diners that they are not really like the Orthodox and that the word kosher does not indicate anything to them. It's like establishing a regulator that will allow a fraudster to operate on the condition that he announces that he is a fraudster. No regulation will help here. The regulator catches 10% of the cases (that's exactly the point. To create deterrence and not control 100% of what happens all the time). And meanwhile 90% are cheated. What's more, the secular regulator you propose doesn't care at all about the truth in such a case. Therefore, there will be no deterrence here when in the first place the regulator allows the fraudster to operate as long as he announces that he is one. This is a statement that he really doesn't care about fraudsters.
Correction: “All their activity in religious matters (conversion, kosher, etc.) is to deceive people into thinking that they are on an equal footing with the Orthodox and that they are like them, etc.’ ”
And if that seems impractical to you, I heard a story about a restaurant abroad that declares itself to be “kosher” (takes care of cleanliness and that's it) and feeds Jewish gluttons who don't understand. And rabbis came there outside the restaurant and when they told people they left the restaurant but it's an endless struggle and they can't be in front of the restaurant 24 hours a day and advertising in the local press doesn't help to warn tourists.
Assuming that the reform (in this form or in any form) will make it difficult for kashrut consumers to obtain kosher food, produced at a proper level - wouldn't it be worthwhile to relax the principle of separation of religion and state a little, in order to provide citizens with these necessary services? After all, the state also pave access roads to synagogues and provide electricity to bait midrash.
If it were clear that the reform is beneficial - or leaves the situation as it is - in the kashrut context, then its fruits could be enjoyed in other contexts. But excessive adherence to the separation of religion and state should not be a reason for too hasty actions.
Personally, I don't understand enough about the conduct of kashrut bodies, but here and there I also hear relevant claims, and the chairwoman of the committee is not one of the people I trust to take care of kashrut for me, and therefore I don't feel that there is a sufficiently reliable solution here.
Hundreds of stories from Bnei Brak
“The hundreds of hair-raising stories I heard in Bnei Brak (and not only there) about the supervision of the Chief Rabbinate,……”.
I wondered about our rabbi – from the stories from Bnei Brak does he bring evidence?
In Bnei Brak, they censored both the writings of the Chazon-Ish and the answers of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.
“The Judge of the Generation” – Rabbi Sternbuch – became ”Reformist” there because of one ruling on a certain matter.
And not only in Bnei Brak. In the US, I also read accusations from the kosher bodies of two Satmar Hasidisms
one against the other.
And the war between Belz and the ”Ultra-Orthodox Community” is so well known that if Rabbi Michael Avraham had heard of it, his hair would have stood on end and fallen out.
Good news
First, the stories are not just from Bnei Brak. Second, this is exactly what I said: I don't trust stories of kosher failures. There are interests and agendas involved here. Therefore, just as I don't believe the stories from Bnei Brak, I also don't believe the stories about "kosher."
What is the comparison between forcing a religious lifestyle to observe Shabbat, stoning, and the like, and ensuring that the people of Israel do not eat carrion and carrion. The food will remain the same food and everyone will eat as they wish while strictly observing kashrut?
It is clear that at least in our time it is impossible to force a lifestyle of observing the commandments in every detail, but if we can ensure that they do not eat prohibitions without fundamentally changing their lives, there is no reason not to take care of it.
By the way, the fact that the Haredim were called out even though they usually distance themselves from the Chief Rabbinate only proves that there are things in the body.
Rabbi Michi
The whole problem is with you not having studied in the correct Beit Midrash the verse in Isaiah 12, the favorite verse of the people of Mount Myrrh: And you shall draw water in the seventh month from the springs of salvation: And Jonathan translated: And you shall receive a hundredfold of joy with gladness from the elect of Tzedikaya:
Go and hear Torah from the elect of the righteous and you will understand why the reform is invalid.
Rabbi Shmulik –
You suggest hearing Torah from the chosen tzaddikim – But do we have any of them today?
You are invited to enter the Haredi websites and see what the followers of Tzadik Reuven say against the followers of Tzadik Shimon.
(Yes, yes. One against his brother)
And if they were – Are they the experts in supervising large economic systems?
I am not of the caliber of Rabbi Michael Avraham or of Moshe Gafni.
But maybe the Minister of Religions is not the satra achra? (There is certain evidence that he is indeed not the satra achra)
Poe's Law
🙂
A. If you want to hear substantive arguments against the reform, I think Rabbi Micha Halevi is the address. He also has an alternative proposal for improving kashrut.
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/news/377913/
B. Even today, anyone who wants to can eat in the way they want. But kosher is Orthodox (this is implicit as a basic premise in the word kosher), and therefore when a person wants to eat in a kosher business, he assumes that he is eating something that is permissible to eat according to Halacha. Therefore, it is impossible to let everyone call themselves kosher because it is a deception for the consumer who reads kosher and understands that it is Orthodox kashrut. Therefore, it is impossible to completely privatize the kashrut system, but there needs to be a regulator who will confirm the fact that it is truly kosher according to Halacha, not everyone can call themselves kosher. I hope I explained myself properly.
Section B is a criticism of the ”ideal” model Yours, not about Matan Kahane's reform.
Rabbi Micha Halevi headed the ‘Team to Examine the Kashrut System in Israel’ on behalf of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, and developed a detailed plan to improve the Kashrut system’ which was adopted by the ‘Chief Rabbinate’ and can be viewed online. It will be reviewed there.
Best regards, Shtsil
It is worth noting that the above report presents a minority proposal by the team members, who proposed allowing some competition between rabbinates, but only in the geographically close area, in order to prevent an absurd situation in which the Metula rabbinate would issue kosher in Eilat, as stipulated in the reform.
Best regards, Shtsel
The description of the company that employs the supervisors in Petah Tikva does not in itself seem like a great success story, and the company manager does not hide the fact that he reduced the number of supervisors, reduced their salaries, and yet, almost went bankrupt if an investor was not found who was willing to give him long-term credit. I am not sure that the High Court of Justice would consider it proper that the manager of the human resources company that employs the supervisors in Petah Tikva is the director of the yeshiva of the city rabbi.
To the praise of the company ‘Kashrut Bez HaYitot, it should be said that its supervisors receive a salary that is higher than the minimum wage, about 46 NIS per hour (according to a calculation of 7400 NIS for 162 hours of work). To this end, in the chapter ‘The Pilot and Its Failure’ (In Amichai Filber's booklet, Regulating Kashrut in Israel, published by ‘Forum Kohelet’, p. 99) In a pilot conducted in Jerusalem and Netanya, the franchisee offered to pay the supervisor 32 NIS while the human resources company charged almost twice that amount – 59 NIS – This means: a brokerage gap of about 100%..
And when it comes to a ’kashrut corporation’ that also includes an array of supervisors and rabbis – the brokerage gap will be in the order of hundreds of percent. The supervisors will work for minimum wage, while the business owner will have to finance the entire array of rabbis, administrators, etc. of the corporation, whereas today, apart from the supervisor's salary and a fee of hundreds of shekels a year, the business owner does not have to finance the kosher certification agency and its inspectors, who are civil servants.
So what is the benefit of all this? The business owner will pay more, in order to receive low-level kosher that will not earn the public's trust?
The severity of Judge Rubinstein's demand that the supervisor not receive his salary from the business owner is a "serious violation of the law," which means a triple violation of the supervisor who will receive minimum wage, and the supervisor who will pay "double payments" and receive kosher at a much lower level.
And the concern about the independence of the supervisor in the old system is not critical, since the business owner will not dare to fire him, otherwise the Rabbinate would remove his supervision.
Best regards, Shtzel
After we saw that employing supervisors by companies and corporations would create a huge ‘intermediation gap’ that would increase the cost of supervision but reduce the supervisor's salary – it occurred to me that if we still want to enforce Judge Rubinstein's ‘s severity’ that the supervisor not receive his salary from the business owner, then we can establish cooperatives of supervisors, who would not have to invest in an administrative mechanism beyond the increase in the supervisors' salary.
Perhaps it would also help to strengthen the system of supervisors in Abrech Kollel, who would devote two or three hours to supervising factories as work as part of their specialization in ‘prohibition and permission’ studies and would receive a low salary as interns. We can also strengthen the system of supervisors among pensioners or housewives – Let them do the work of supervision voluntarily or for a small salary. They will find it an interesting occupation that also has a mitzvah.
With the blessing of sharing and volunteering, Sh”chel
The low salary of the supervisors, seemingly indicates that in the national-religious public, the office of the supervisor will serve as temporary employment for students until they find a much more lucrative academic profession. Those who will find a long-term interest in the occupation of a kosher supervisor are Haredi avrechim, whose salary, no matter how low it is, is still infinitely higher than the stipend of an avrechim in a kollel.
It seems that whether there will be privatization or not, the provider of kasher will be the local rabbi or some kind of "corporation" - still the majority of the supervisors in the field will be Haredi, and some of them will be yeshiva students or national religious students who will find temporary employment in supervision.
Best regards, Shtzel
On the 12th of Kislev, 5772
Even before the reform, permission was granted, according to a High Court ruling, to a private entity to issue a certificate that the business was ‘supervised’ by a particular corporation, as long as it did not say ‘kosher’. For some reason, the public did not flock en masse to ‘kosher’, and therefore the ‘reform’was needed, in the hope that it would improve the situation.
The original proposal called for the Chief Rabbinate and local rabbis to be prohibited from granting kosher certification, a permission that would only be granted to corporations that receive the approval of the “Chief Rabbinate’s Supervisor of Kashrut Certification,” a name that creates the impression that the “Supervisor” is part of the Chief Rabbinate and acts according to its instructions, but in reality, the “Chief Rabbinate’s Supervisor of Kashrut Certification” is a civil servant appointed by the Minister of Religious Affairs. This means: whoever certifies the kosher certification providers will be an official appointed by the Minister of Religious Affairs. A politician becomes a “Rabbi Rabban.”
The bill drafted by Yulia Malinovsky’s committee was more moderate. In the first year, local rabbinates will also be allowed to issue kosher certificates, but starting next year and onwards, local rabbinates will need to receive approval from the Minister of Religious Affairs to issue kosher certificates. This means: the Minister of Religious Affairs is the ’final arbiter’ in matters of kasher…
And of course, the ‘supervisor of kasher certificates in the Chief Rabbinate’ was left in place, who had no subordination to the Chief Rabbinate, except to the Minister of Religious Affairs. He will be the ‘final arbiter’ in matters of kasher’ while misleading the public and carrying the name of the Chief Rabbinate in vain.
To a situation where de facto it is possible to issue kosher certificates under the name ‘supervised’ and to import products from abroad with questionable kosher certificates – We're used to it, we live in a ’state of all things’ 🙂 – But there is a solution to all of this. You can always look for the inscription ‘with the approval of the Rabbi of Israel’, but now they got clever and invented the person in charge of kashrut in the Chief Rabbinate’ to create a false impression that those corporations supposedly have approval from the Chief Rabbinate.
Best regards, Sh”z Levinger
The level of kashrut will drop dramatically, because not only the supervisor, but also the rabbi who issues the kosher certificate will be financially dependent on the business owner. Instead of the business owner being a ‘scrutiny’ and feeling like violating the kosher provisions – now the kosher certificate will be ‘scrutiny’ from the business owner, who naturally dislikes restrictions and requirements that cost money, and will willingly leave in favor of a ‘corporation’ whose requirements are lower.
The cost of kashrut will also not drop, but rise. Lowering the bar to a sub-level will increase the need to seek out more ‘fancy kashrut. And since no fancy kashrut will agree to be under the supervision and approval of the ‘designee on behalf of the Minister of Religious Affairs’ – The ‘multiplication of qualifications’ will continue and even increase.
If we want to improve the level of qualifications, there should be legislation that will guarantee the reasonable salary of supervisors, which will include a basic salary and allowances for seniority and Torah education. I was horrified by what is described in the article about the ‘Supervision Corporation’ by Rabbi Micha Halevi, that a supervisor is supposed to work for a salary of 7400 NIS gross for a full-time position (5500 NIS less than the average salary in the economy!) The work of a supervisor requires fear of God, heavy responsibility, professional knowledge and not easy dealing with greedy business owners. Do we expect the supervisor to work for a starvation wage?
Beyond ensuring basic conditions for the supervisors we trust – There is a need for a professional mechanism that is familiar with the technological problems that are constantly being updated in the food industry and will provide the local rabbinates with constant guidance that will streamline supervision. To this end, I have proposed establishing ‘regional courts for kashrut’, which will guide the local rabbinates in professional questions.
These ‘regional courts’ could also serve as supervisory and appeal bodies for the local rabbinates, thus raising both the level of kashrut and public confidence in it.
Best regards, Shtzel
And whether in a private home or in a restaurant, everyone has the choice to consume kosher in a ’sub-level’ – What happens to someone who serves in the army, or is hospitalized in a hospital, etc., places they did not choose to stay in – The public that requires the citizen to stay in these places – is also supposed to provide him with kosher to a reasonable standard agreed upon by a majority of the quorum and a majority of the rabbis of Israel.
Best regards, Shtzel
I suggested to the chief rabbis that the basic kashrut standard that is to be determined by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel should adhere to the basic principle that the local rabbis are the ones authorized to determine the halakha in that place, since they know the spiritual condition of their congregation, and know when it is appropriate to be strict as the law requires and when it is appropriate to be lenient out of consideration for the urgency of the moment.
For this reason, it would be beneficial for the local rabbinates to adopt the guidelines established by the new rabbi of Lod, Rabbi Shimon Meir Biton, who established a rabbinical bureau in the city, whose members include the rabbis of the city's neighborhoods, Ashkenazim as well as Sephardim, Haredim and Zionists. When there is broad agreement among the rabbis, the public's trust, in its various forms, increases.
And as I suggested above, to establish "regional courts" that specialize in kashrut matters (just as there are courts dedicated to conversion) that will add a professional dimension to the local rabbinates, both in terms of knowledge in the ever-changing fields of innovation in the world of kashrut and the food industry, and in the areas of organization and administration.
And the combination between the local rabbinate, which grants the authority of "Meri Datra" and recognition of the needs of the local public, together with a "regional court for kashrut," which will provide the professional expertise - such a blessed combination will raise the level of kashrut and greatly increase the public's trust in the qualifications of the rabbis of Israel.
With best wishes, Shtzel
Paragraph 1, line 2
… The basic principle will be determined…
Paragraph 4, lines 1-2
… … Special courts for conversion)…
In the second amendment, it says:
Paragraph 3, lines 1-2
… Special Conversion Courts) …
I agree with what has already been written here, wording it in my own way to clarify –
The important thing is that – most of those who consume kosher do not know the definition of kosher. Many traditionalists and religious people of all kinds, who see themselves as committed to the law and therefore want to eat kosher, are not familiar with (or at least, not very aware of) concepts such as cooking for non-Jews, the laws of mixtures, the immersing of utensils, etc.’, certainly not at the level of detail necessary to understand whether the standards of a particular or unknown body are okay or not. So they look for someone with an beard who is connected to their religion to tell them that everything is okay. And telling these people “kosher” about everything that comes to the mind of some organization is certainly fraud, even if there is a reason to demand that they find out more.
If you are ready for regulation that will check whether the body is faithful to its standards (i.e. if it writes without insects, it is without insects, if it writes slaughtered on Thursday, it is slaughtered on Thursday, etc.), then why not for regulation that ensures that if it writes kosher - it is kosher, at least according to some of the legitimate opinions (and you are right that there is ambiguity, but it was from you that I got the insight that even a vague concept has a real meaning - it is clear, for example, that if the Pope writes "kosher", it is fraud, and if someone who upholds all the strictures of all the rabbis ever - let's say for the sake of discussion, for social and economic considerations - writes "kosher", it is not)
That's exactly why there are supervisors and a regulator. There's no need for me to repeat what I said again. Most of the public doesn't understand banking either. That's why the Bank of Israel should provide banking services and not just be a regulator of the banks?!
“There should be a regulatory body whose job is to make sure that every kashrut system provides what it says it provides.”
To make sure that a kashrut system provides what it says it provides, inspectors should be sent to the supervised businesses and make sure that the food there meets the criteria set by the system providing kashrut.
In other words, the reform creates a dual kashrut system in which a state kashrut supervisor checks the supervisor from the private body.
It is clear to everyone that this is not applicable. The state will not supervise the bodies providing kashrut.
This reform is one big lie.
In your opinion, the Bank of Israel provides banking services in parallel with the banks, for it is the regulator over them. The insurance supervisor also provides insurance services, etc. When there are several methods on a particular issue, especially if it is a matter of values and not facts, it is not right for the state to determine which method is preferable and do the work instead of the people. Instead, they will let different entities do the work, each in their own way, and the regulator will do the work of supervision. It doesn't take a long school day to understand this. If you are angry with Matan Kahane, that is of course your right, but it is better to back it up with arguments and not by venting grievances and grumblings to the world.
By the way, I once lived in Bnei Brak, the city to which it and the Chief Rabbinate were attached together. Every morning I saw a pair of people there walking down the street cleaning it. One held a broom and a dustpan and the other walked next to him and supervised him. And very carefully.
And by the way, today the Rabbinate is both a kashrut provider and a regulator, and wherever there is private kashrut (Haredi, of course, because only they are allowed to do so), there is a real double supervision (actually not, because the Rabbinate doesn't really do its job, as is known). And, look, not just supervision and regulation, but a real double supervision. I'm sure you sent them an angry letter that the Rabbinate is one big lie.
And hence the conclusion: It's clear that this reform is one big lie.
There are many professions that cannot be practiced without permission from the state:
Doctors, veterinarians, engineers, locksmiths, and so on and so forth.
It seems entirely reasonable to me that even in kosher, criteria will have to be met in order to be able to provide kosher.
This is exactly the purpose of the Kosher Fraud Law, there are many who want to eat kosher but have no way of knowing which kosher certification providers are real and which are fraudulent.
As for whether the Rabbinate should be the actual supervisor, that is a completely different question, but yes, I expect there to be clear criteria for kosher, perhaps at several levels, and that there will be regulatory oversight. I have no problem with someone who does not meet the criteria not being able to use the word “kosher” just as someone who practices some kind of holistic medicine cannot call themselves a doctor.
I answered that and I'll answer it again. You're mixing up two completely different situations. In locksmithing and medicine, there are agreed-upon professional standards. That's why there's no problem with regulation there. But in kashrut, there's a value argument, since it's not about facts. There are different definitions of the concept of kashrut. That's why active regulation (meaning that sets the standards and doesn't just examine transparency) is problematic. This is also the reason why the Rabbinate cannot be the regulator because people there have one particular perception of kashrut, and it's not agreed upon. I also explained why it's wrong to classify it into levels because sometimes it's about a type and not a level. And those are my words.
By the way, I wrote above that I also have reservations about the factual level. If a person who doesn't understand medicine presents himself as a doctor in a transparent manner, and his patient decides soberly to go to him (as in alternative medicine), this should be allowed and I should also call it medicine. As long as transparency is maintained.
And a question for Ramda”a –
Will you accept vaccine deniers and corona deniers with such liberality, as long as they are ‘transparent’? 🙂
With greetings, Shaya Glazer the Glazier
And a question for the Tzohar rabbis:
If you want to give Israel the right to be kosher, why are you going to testify in court in favor of someone who presented a fake kosher certificate (as described in the words of Rabbi Moshe Katz of Koshruth)?
Greetings, just a simple question.
Why are there different definitions of the concept of kashrut? Most things have a consensus among all the bodies.. How is Reform “kashrut” different from Reform ”medicine”?.. In fact, you mean the same thing in both, so for you it doesn't matter. But it does put everything in a different light, and a comparison to being forced to eat pork is very misleading, and the truth is that I am surprised by the really blunt comparison.
I once heard from Rabbi Sharlo when he was on the ethics committee and they discussed whether the family should be told all the options for treating their loved one and only then act, he said that he was naturally inclined to know everything and let the family decide. One of the senior doctors there said that he did this once and the husband said to him: ” In the future, what you would do to your wife, do to my wife. Most people live like this, trusting, running, not choosing everything. It's exhausting and tiring. In economics, they trust the employer. In medicine, the doctor. In kosher, the rabbi. That's how it is, this is the dilemma of people, they don't have the strength to discuss and deal with everything. Therefore, society is partnerist to a certain level, in all areas, what's so exciting about kosher?
A strange claim. Whoever wants to trust someone else's decision should do so. Who bothers him? The question is why force someone who doesn't want to trust the Rabbinate but another institution. And by the way, the fact that people want to be a small head is one of the famous ones. So what? So they want to. And Rabbi Charlo's claim is correct. That doctor made a mistake by making a decision for them. They should have been informed and left the decision to them even if they didn't want to.
On the 19th of Kislev, Rabbi Sherlow said that the doctor should give the patient all the information about the options and risks. Thus, it is appropriate that all kosher products be accompanied by a specification sheet, according to which rabbis the product is kosher and according to which rabbis it is not kosher 🙂
However, since the consumer prefers a clear statement, it is appropriate that not everyone who wants to use the name should use it.
Best regards, Chabad Daki
Indeed, Rabbi Sharlo proposes a similar method in teaching halakhah, whereby the rabbi presents to the questioner the variety of methods and the system of considerations and leaves the decision in the hands of the questioner. See his article ‘”Yishar Yizhoz Innihu” – on the adjustment of halakhah in a post-modern era by virtue of the teachings of Rabbi Shager” (published in ’Nta'im’ and available on the ‘Yeshiva Orot Shaul’ website.
With greetings, Hasdai Bezalel Duvdevani Kirshen-Kwass
Not that it matters to you, but his conclusion from there was the opposite. He said that there he refined his approach to presenting all the halakhic options to the person and sometimes he doesn't act like that.
The fact is not that people just want to be a small head. It's actually understanding reality and the world in which we live. Companies fight to be the user's default and radical organizations try to shape the basis according to what they see fit. It's true that choice is very important, but that's not what the debate is about, and that's exactly what's misleading in this post – as if this is the debate – whether to allow eating other kosher foods or not. The debate is around the concept of “kosher” which is a halakhic, Jewish concept. And someone comes along (a problem that is less present in the current reform, but certainly exists in the one you propose) who wants to reshape this concept. That's what the debate is about. Everyone should do what they want for themselves, but I want the code that people recognize as having a certain meaning – Like “medicine”, “kosher” (or – “family”?) won't lead to something else that they *don't necessarily want*
The rabbi does not address the dilemma between the two that stems from political principles.
First, let's add a point of precision - a democratic state is not committed to liberalism by definition. In my opinion, this is a confusion of concepts. Also, there is no fundamental difference between imposing liberal values and religious values, that is, both are the adoption of values by the ‘state’ (no matter the ethical school, as a social contract or from heaven) and it is responsible for enforcing them whether they were adopted or imposed on it through various institutions.
To illustrate, there is no difference between the High Court of Justice and the Chief Rabbinate, both enforce different principles. The question arises, what is the basis of these principles after removing the layers of rhetoric? I suggest that at its core, it is a dilemma between adopting the principle of the ‘state of the Jews’ which is nationalistic (which is based on religion in one definition or another), and liberalism, mainly in light of the implications of deciding for liberalism*.
The question ultimately boils down to whether in this case one decides in the liberal direction or not and why? In my opinion, there is no clear and decisive answer, especially in light of the adoption of the nationalistic principle in the Declaration of Independence (even before liberal (!) Although the word ‘democracy’ is there, but again, it is not the same as liberalism). The document can be canceled, but the argument is about the spirit of the state and whether the privatization of education brings about a change in it.
In my humble opinion, whoever decides in the direction of liberalism tips the scales against nationalism (which is based on religion) and this is the essence of the discussion, not any other layer.
*To sharpen the point of the implications, one needs to take a look retrospectively at the ‘transitions’ of European countries from clear nationalism to pure liberalism.
Sh”l ,
At the time I don't remember if I suggested it to anyone or not, but since you, as you said, suggested it to the chief rabbis,
you could suggest to them that it would be possible to perform civil service in the kosher of the Religious Council.
It would be possible to do it by means of an hours transfer card at the business.
And the amount of servants 4 hours a day for 3 years would buy a sufficient amount of cheap labor for this task.
403 NIS per month for a single servant.~
And there would be many servants who would be happy with that, especially if they had to travel from place to place and that would be included in the 4 hours. And perhaps it would also be possible to do only 2/3 of the total.
This would buy a huge upgrade in kosher at zero cost.
Good idea. How about a national service for raising pigs or writing hateful articles about the Talmud? Maybe a national service for cleaning the streets of Ra'anana?
How about you stop writing hate comments, I'll even think you got paid for it.
I argued that doing national service that primarily benefits only a certain segment of the population (Jews who observe kosher) and has no general motive is strange. In fact, it's like canceling national service for those guys, or like creating a national street cleaning service specifically for the residents of Ra'anana.
To Leszczel,
You may not be aware of the reality that is happening today.
I am speaking from a fairly broad knowledge of the various organizations that have a standard according to the law to serve as a place of civic service for the Haredi sector. And I do not think that this is something that is not broad enough in relation to others, if not more so than most of them.
And it even sounds equal.
The idea of directing National Service volunteers to kosher supervision positions is excellent. I had a similar idea regarding military service. Since the cooks in the army work ‘week by week’, one week in the army and one week at home– I proposed establishing a yeshiva where the cooks would study during the week they are not in the army, and it turned out that during three years of service – the students would be in the yeshiva for a year and a half, which would improve the Torah level of the IDF cooks. I proposed calling the cooks' yeshiva ‘Yeshiva Rav Hatachim’ and in English Rabbi Cook Yeshiva
With greetings, Sh”el [= National Plate Washer]
In business kitchens – restaurants, factories and hotels – there may be opposition to sending National Service members to supervision duties, arguing that the business should pay for the supervision, but in hospitals, nursing homes and boarding schools, there is certainly room for sending volunteers to their kitchens, both for cooking duties and for dishwashing and kosher supervision duties.
Best regards, Shtzel
Another job that would be suitable for National Service volunteers is supervising responses on the legal website, which will not exceed the limits of good taste and relevance.
Best regards, Ad Hominem
As I understand it, today the Shul does not obligate the kashrut supervisors and they can prohibit things that the Shul clearly permits.
Maybe it would be better to establish a kashrut that declares that it is solely obligated to the Shul and not to any other external party?
In addition, today there are factories that have been certified in the past, but if I set up an identical production line, it would be disqualified by the same kashrut organization (like rich matzah for Passover, if you are not a Getenio brother then you are selling chametz in kind)
Again, what is the point of establishing a transparent kashrut body that will apply the same rules to all supervisors?
And this is before the hair-raising stories I have heard from people in the food industry about luxury events with fancy kashrut that served pink champagne that was clearly not kosher to the distinguished guests
And of course, claims everywhere that big players receive a discount on kashrut and the small ones are pursued with fury until they enrich the salt
In the year 1562, the city was built and adorned with the face of the city.
To Gabriel – Shalom Rav,
There are two concerns with today's rich matzah (also called 'getaniyo'): (a) Is the wine in it 100% wine, since fruit juice with water is more acidic. (b) Baking powder and preservatives are added that were not in Maran's time, which could lead to souring.
This is why great rabbis of our generation disagreed. According to the opinion of the Gratchet Yotsef and the Gratchet Amar, it is permissible even in the rich matzah of our day, and based on their teaching, the Gratchet Yosef, the Rabbi of Holon, gave it kosher status for 'getaniyo'. In contrast, the Gratchet Eliyahu and the Gratchet Bakshi-Doron forbade it for the reasons mentioned: concern about the addition of water to the wine. And for fear of souring by baking powder, etc. (and of course, for your information, matzahs from Getani are also forbidden.
With blessings, Hasdai Bezalel Duvdevani Kirshen-Kvass
Regarding pink champagne - I came across a pink champagne from Carmel-Mizrahi that is strictly kosher.
There is no such thing as Carmel Mizrahi champagne. Maybe you meant sparkling wine because champagne is legally produced in the Champagne region of France.
Of course, it is possible to qualify a kosher production line in the Champagne region, but on the bottles at that event it was written ‘not kosher’…
And as for rich matzah – you are welcome to make a rich matzah-style pastry and look for someone to give you a kosher stamp for Passover (herbs will grow in your palms and you will not receive kosher for Passover).
Regarding ‘rich matzah’ nowadays – see the articles by Rabbi Menachem Burstein, ‘Is”rich matzah” leaven?’ and Rabbi Yitzhak Dvir, ‘Rich Matzah Cookies for Passover’, on the ‘Koshrut’ website, and in the article by Rabbi Moshe Bigel, ‘Rich Matzah for Passover’, on the ‘Tzohar’ website, and in the literature listed there and there. Also in Rabbi Ido Elba's book, ‘Rich Matzah’ published by the ‘Institute for the Rabbis of Villages’ in Kiryat Arba.
Best regards, Dakik
There are also laws that prohibit the word "ketchup" from being written on a product with less than a certain percentage of tomatoes. In Europe, there is a minimum percentage of cocoa in order to be allowed to write "chocolate," etc., even though the ingredients are detailed on the packaging. Because the unacceptable and non-standard use of familiar words misleads consumers who don't read the small print. That's how it is. If someone sells dog meat in a pure milk sauce and writes "kosher under the supervision of a halal dog," there will still be customers who will be mistaken, and the state is allowed to enforce non-standard use of product titles that could be misleading
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“Rabbi” Michael Avraham:
I am in favor of the reform even if it brings thousands of people to openly eat offal and carrion, lowers the level of kashrut to the depths of the Dead Sea, and causes a serious damage to the status of Halacha and Judaism in the eyes of the public. Even the welcome damage to the Chief Rabbinate, which in itself justifies almost any result and any price, is not a central argument, although it is related to my decisive argument.
Maybe you will start writing articles in Haaretz?
“Itzik”, thank you. I will consider it.
Your response to Rabbi Moshe Katz's comments about kosher is extremely disappointing.
You answered from a position and not my business.
Rabbi Katz claimed that the Tzohar story can prove what happens to a kosher system with a lot of goodwill that works in a privatized world.
There is no connection or coherence here with the rabbinate and its failures, which, as is known, the rabbis do not refrain from publishing.
The difference between failures and a conscious failure to meet stated goals is an abysmal difference when it comes to examining whether privatization can do good to the market (a test that you refuse to recognize).
It is interesting that it is precisely in the courts that Rabbi Michi suddenly became a state figure, while this institution is, in my opinion and the opinion of many, the most corrupt in the country, only that it knows how to disguise it with the autism typical of leftists. There too, there is the appointment of cronies, etc. And what's more, the activist dictatorship that Aharon Barak's students forced upon us (and without any accountability!) is more than corruption, it is simply downright evil. And the imposition of progressive anti-values on the rest of the country's residents. Here you will hear a deafening silence. This is, by the way, true of all public institutions in the country, including the senior command of the IDF, the Shin Bet, the Mossad, and the rest of the government ministries. The officials there do whatever comes to their minds and do not implement the voters' policy if they do not like it (and also thwart it) instead of resigning as an honest person is supposed to do. Here you will not hear from Rabbi Michi that ”its breaking is its purification” etc. Here he becomes one of the disciples of Rabbi Tao that the state is a holy thing.
I think that in the eyes of the left, the state is more holy than in Rabbi Tao. He also believes in this because of the beginning of the growth of our redemption. They believe in this because they do not believe in the Jewish people (which is a racist concept for them, like the whole concept of nationhood) and then because of the vacuum that has been created, they work for the formal rule of the state and its institutions (which is controlled by their own people since the days of Mapai). This is how, for example, the Speaker of the Knesset can translate Rabin's words “We are all brothers” (which are stamped on the walls of the Knesset corridors) into Arabic. For him, all citizens of Israel with a blue ID are brothers. This is the essence of their brotherhood – their citizenship (a formal empty concept). There is no people of Israel. There are only citizens of Israel. Now, slowly, Rabbi Michi has also joined the progressive religion (probably without even knowing it) because of his unconscious desire to find favor (along with the rest of the empty academics of Bar Minnan University) in the eyes of his leftist friends (like almost every liberal national religious person). This is the power of the environment in which a person lives.