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Why Be Religious? (Column 395)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

Dedicated to Racheli Rotner (although we are not acquainted)

A few days ago a post (see also here) by Racheli Rotner came my way that deals with the question of why be religious, or why observe the commandments. I like reading and listening to her, despite the provocativeness—and perhaps precisely because of it. I have a soft spot for free and honest people who don’t defer to convention, especially if they are religious (otherwise it’s not much of a feat).

She wrote a beautiful post, and from the flood of responses she received (which she herself marvels at and is surprised by) it is clear that she touched a raw nerve or a sensitive chord in many people. The feelings she describes honestly apparently reside in many of us. It seems to me that such feelings in me and in others led me to write the trilogy, and in fact to the long years of inquiry that culminated in writing it. My religious worldview came, among other things, to give religious people the freedom I find in her.

I will allow myself to analyze her words, and I hope this will serve Racheli Rotner and perhaps even help her understand herself (truly, not as a joke). I will try here to explain my answer to her questions, and to suggest that these are probably her own answers as well, only she does not manage to formulate them to herself.

Rotner’s Post

First, here are her words in full:

What Connects Me to God Today?

I am religious. I pray Shacharit every day (though abbreviated), I wear only skirts (though shortened), I say blessings before and after eating, I wait six hours between meat and dairy. I keep Shabbat, kashrut, and family purity completely, in a religious—not traditional—format. Why?

Lately I’ve been trying to decipher honestly with myself the reason for my loyalty to religion. After all, I’m not a person of inertia. I’ve made enough unconventional choices in my life to know I don’t walk in the furrow just because there is a furrow there. And yet, when it comes to the religious furrow, I still walk in it stubbornly. Why? I’m no longer sure I know.

I go over the ingredient list of religious life, to look for which of them I actually connect to:

The mythological narrative no longer speaks to me. I like the stories of the Bible less and less—as a literary text, as a historical text, and as a moral text. I also don’t have the intellectual curiosity to dive into the Jewish bookshelf, or the cultural urge to correspond with it, as others have (even secular people).

I no longer identify politically with religious interests.

I find it harder and harder to justify religious morality. When there are open and accepting places in religion, it’s almost always despite the religion, not because of it. A thousand liberal rabbis embracing gay people won’t change the fact that the Bible says they are an abomination. When liberal religious people say “my Judaism is to accept the different and to spread love in the world,” it feels New-Agey to me—not what was intended in the original text. I always feel that we’re all repressing the fact that this is a harsher and more cruel religion than the one we’ve invented for ourselves in the modern era.

And I don’t have social and communal tendencies, so I also can’t be one of those religious people who no longer really connect to religious practice but stay there for the people, for the social life, for the family gatherings on holidays. I’m anyway most of the time in my room at the computer, and I hate holidays.

Nor do I have a love for particular mitzvot or customs, maybe except for the part where the constraints of Shabbat allow me to read books patiently and with pleasure without wandering to the smartphone every two paragraphs. Some say that whether God exists or not, the commandments are a delight in themselves that connect you to some spiritual frequency, like meditation. To immerse in the mikveh, to pray, to light candles. I simply don’t feel that frequency, I’m not tuned to it at all; I do it on autopilot because that’s what you’re supposed to do. It connects for me to compulsive rituals that are embedded in me anyway.

So what’s left when you strip all of that away—the elements that usually every religious person has at least one of them. If I don’t have any of them, why am I still there? Meaning, here. Meaning, perhaps it’s already there?

The reason is complicated and a bit tautological. I may not believe in religion but I do believe in God. That is, I have to believe in God. That is, I’m afraid not to believe in God. I must have here an intelligent planning force, an organizing force, with an orderly narrative, that wraps the universe from the outside, otherwise I’ll go crazy. And if such a force exists, it presumably operates reciprocally, like everything else. There has to be a contract between me and Him that will anchor and justify the act of wrapping and His presence in the world, ground it in daily reality; otherwise He will fly off to His celestial literatures. So the commandments are a fairly logical contract: He will keep the world, I will wash my hands in the morning; the contract holds and His presence in the universe is maintained. Not in the sense of “He will punish me if I turn on a light on Shabbat,” but the practice preserves the connection between me and the cosmos, because we both remember each other, our hands hold. And yes, there is a bit of OCD here, which is a disorder I really have. The mysticism of day-to-day actions. The illusion of protection. And since I anyway accepted upon myself the Orthodox yoke of commandments, this is the contract I’m continuing with; these are the actions that are “important.”

Is that enough? Most of the time yes. The need for God is stronger than any heretical thought, moral discomfort, or difficulty in performing this or that ritual. But sometimes no. Especially when in your life there are also secular people who are affected by your lifestyle, and then you need to have the mandate to shape the status quo. How important are certain things to you, and why. And what will you pass on to the next generation that you suddenly brought into the world? A religious truth? A set of values? Or just a neurotic disorder? Because perhaps I really have nothing to pass on; perhaps all of this is just my personal psychological story. And on the other hand—how will I dare give my child a world without God? Doesn’t he also deserve an organizing force that wraps the universe?

I don’t know how to continue from here.

She herself concludes in wonder and says that she does not understand herself, and therefore I hope it won’t be considered paternalism if I allow myself to offer her an explanation of herself from which she might also draw conclusions.

A First Look at Her Words

I’ll begin with a sentence Chayuta Deutsch wrote to me regarding this post:

She speaks about a “need for God”; I thought you would dismiss it with the well-known line from the genre: “Let her go to a psychologist, take medication, and leave us in peace.”

As the editor of the trilogy, it seems she knows me well. Indeed, Rotner’s search for the need these things meet for her and the benefit she derives from them should have elicited from me a response in that spirit. It turns out that others also understand her words that way and respond accordingly. See, for example, the response of Rabbi Moshe Rat (I was told this is a response to her post):

I completely agree with his words in themselves, but not that this is a relevant response to Rotner’s words. Now I will try to explain why, perhaps surprisingly, I read her words entirely differently—and in fact the very opposite.

So Why, Indeed, Serve the Lord?

In my trilogy I argue that true faith is not supposed to give us anything, and in any case the benefit from it, even if it existed, cannot and should not be the reason for religious obligation. The reason is supposed to be the faith itself, the commitment to God’s command and our conception of divinity. My claim is that God is such a being that one is obligated to fulfill His commandments by virtue of His being God. There is and should be no other reason that establishes religious obligation.

Maimonides stands on this in his famous words at the beginning of chapter 10 of Laws of Repentance (see also in column 22):

a. A person should not say, “I will perform the commandments of the Torah and engage in its wisdom so that I may receive all the blessings written therein, or so that I may merit life in the World to Come; and I will separate from the transgressions that the Torah warned about so that I may be saved from the curses written in the Torah, or so that I may not be cut off from life in the World to Come.” One should not serve the Lord in this manner; one who serves in this way serves out of fear, and this is not the level of the prophets nor the level of the sages. They serve the Lord in this way only the common folk, women, and minors, whom one trains to serve out of fear until their knowledge increases and they serve out of love.

b. One who serves out of love engages in Torah and commandments and walks in the paths of wisdom not because of anything in the world, and not out of fear of evil, and not in order to inherit the good; rather, he does the truth because it is the truth, and in the end the good will come because of it. This level is exceedingly great, and not every sage merits it; it is the level of Abraham our father, whom the Holy One, blessed be He, called His beloved, for he served only out of love. And it is the level that the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded us through Moses, as it is said, “And you shall love the Lord your God.” And when a person loves the Lord with the proper love, he will immediately perform all the commandments out of love.

Serving for its own sake is the observance of the commandments and a religious commitment that is unconditional and not dependent on anything external to it. True, this arouses in many the sense that we are dealing with irrational behavior—or, alternatively, elicits meaningless and vacuous responses such as: faith is above reason; a leap into the realm of the absurd; the “vacated space”; R. Nahman; New Age; Rabbi Shagar; etc., etc. But all of these are based on a logical error.

Every value decision that is based on some explanation—its explanation will contain a value or values (the value of human life, helping others, honoring parents, love of neighbor, patriotism, and so on). When we seek an explanation for the value itself, we cannot find one. Ask yourselves: Why is there value in human life? The only answer is: Because human life has value. Why is it important to help others? Because it is important to help others. Values serve us to explain decisions and derived conclusions, but they themselves constitute the axioms of ethics. They themselves have no—and cannot have—an explanation external to them. If they had an explanation, they would be means and not ends—in other words, not values. As with every logical system, it is impossible to base all its claims on arguments and proofs, for these themselves are based on axioms, and axioms, by their very nature, cannot be proven. Therefore, when I explain to someone why it is forbidden to do X and I hang it on the value Y, one cannot ask me why to adopt the value Y. By virtue of being a value, it obligates. This necessarily leads to an infinite regress. One can, of course, dispute my value—and it is certainly possible that I am mistaken; here I only wish to claim that the fact that I have no explanation for it is not a flaw in my doctrine. On the contrary—there is and cannot be anyone who does not “suffer” from this.

I once compared this to moral obligation. Think of someone who comes to you and says: I understand that murder is immoral, and still it’s not clear to me why not murder. Why be moral? One who asks such a question is confused: either he does not understand what the statement “X is immoral” means, or he does not really think that murder is immoral. If he thinks so and understands the meaning, there is no room for the question of why not murder. It is a direct corollary of the statement that murder is immoral.

So too regarding the obligation to God’s command. It has—and needs—no explanation external to it. Certainly not a utilitarian explanation, but not even a value-based explanation. It is a basic value, and upon it one can build explanations for other things. One who says to me: I understand that the Lord is God and that He commanded to do X, and still I ask myself why and whether to do X—I tell him he is confused: either he does not really believe that the Lord is God, or he does not understand the meaning of the statement that the Lord is God. But if he believes and also understands, then there is no room for the question of why to fulfill His commandments. In fact, this is the meaning of the concept “God”: the entity whose command we are obligated to do (by the very fact that He commanded). In light of this principle, I have often explained Maimonides’ puzzling words in Laws of Idolatry 3:6 (“acceptance of divinity”). Therefore, the term “elohim” in Scripture also describes judges (see Sanhedrin 3 and elsewhere), for a judge is a person whose commands we are obligated to obey by virtue of his being a judge. That is precisely “elohim.” Thus Maimonides, at the end of Laws of Kings ch. 8, writes that one who performs commandments because of reasoned judgment (because it makes sense to him) is not pious but perhaps wise. There is no act of commandment here, for a commandment must be done by virtue of the authority of the Commander and nothing else (“acceptance of divinity”).

My favorite example of this is the famous mountaineer George Mallory. When asked why he climbs Everest, he answered: Because it’s there. This is a wonderful illustration of faith and religious commitment. A person has fundamental values for which he has no explanation, and he also does not need one (and cannot find one)—precisely because these are his most basic values. Axioms have no proofs and no explanations. They are true just because. One who does not experience this attitude toward mountaineering (like me) will not understand Mallory, and no explanation will help him. It will appear wholly irrational. The same goes for one who does not experience faith. He, too, cannot understand this answer for religious commitment.[1] Therefore the example from morality is, in my view, so good and powerful—because there we all experience it. As for religious commitment, apparently not every person experiences this.[2] But religious people usually do, and in my view this is indeed the deep reason for their commitment.

Two Kinds of “Just Because”

It is important to sharpen and clarify that I am not saying values are arbitrary (as Leibowitz claimed; see my article here). My claim is that values do not require an explanation, for they are self-evident. An explanation of claim X is to ground it on claim Y that is more intelligible than it. But the most intelligible claim cannot be grounded on a more intelligible claim, and therefore we will have no explanation for it. Moreover, we necessarily must have such claims (axioms); otherwise we fall into an infinite regress.

Hence there is no possibility of proposing an explanation for a value in terms of something more clear and intelligible than it. It is the most clear and most self-evident. Therefore every ethical chain of explanation begins from values, and by definition they cannot have an explanation. My claim is that the obligation to God’s command is a value in the deepest sense of the word. It is the most fundamental value, and by means of it one can explain other decisions and values. But precisely because of that, it itself is not explainable and does not need an explanation. Yet none of this means that values or faith are arbitrary. Quite the opposite. They are the parents of every rational argument by being the axioms on which it rests.

One of the axioms of Euclidean geometry is that two parallel lines do not meet. By virtue of its being an axiom, we have no proof for it. We also cannot say that it is the result of observation (who walked with those lines to infinity to ensure they don’t meet?). It is true because it is self-evident to us. When I am asked why this is true, I will say: “Just because.” But my intent is not that it is arbitrary; rather, that it is self-evident and requires no explanation. On the contrary—geometric theorems are explained on the basis of the axioms. By means of them we can explain or prove other things, but they themselves require no explanation.

Anyone can see that we are not dealing with an irrational approach. On the contrary, a rational argument is always based on foundational assumptions, and therefore a rational explanation always begins from an essential “just because.” The statement “I believe in X” or “I am obligated to Y—just because” is a thoroughly rational statement. There is nothing problematic in such an explanation. On the contrary, it only means that we are at the root point of my beliefs and values—what is most clear and most intelligible to me.

In my above article I showed that Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who used the term “arbitrariness” very much to describe his relation to values, intended “just because” in the sense I described here—and not “just because” in the arbitrary sense. His terminology—that values are “arbitrary”—was not successful and thus confused many, including himself. Values indeed are not rationalizable and not justifiable—but that certainly does not mean they are arbitrary. In my assessment, Leibowitz himself did not grasp that there are two kinds of “just because,” and therefore tended to relate to fundamental truths as if they were arbitrary (he identified non-justifiability with arbitrariness). But I claim—paternalistically, clearly—that he did not decipher himself correctly. I also have an explanation for my paternalism: his positivist thinking, according to which what cannot be explained and proven is arbitrary, necessarily led him to the mistaken terminology and to this confusion. Now I will argue that something similar happens to many people, who do not fully understand their own outlook.

On Attempts at Rationalization and on Unconscious Understanding

Many people wonder why to observe the commandments. They seek an explanation—and naturally do not quite find one. Sometimes they cling to the usual clichés, such as that if we serve God He will deliver us from all sorts of things, or that our lives will be better; it will give us satisfaction and meaning, and so on. I don’t believe any of that (except for satisfaction and meaning, with which I completely agree; but in my view that is not a reason to serve the Lord), and in my estimation others, deep in their hearts, also do not truly believe it. They find themselves compelled to say this because of the very distress Rotner describes. If we have no such explanations—why do we at all observe and have to observe the commandments?! This is a rationalization that comes afterward, a kind of cognitive dissonance (a person’s psychological tendency to justify his path and to seek consistency in his positions).

The fundamental reason for this confusion is that the “explanation” I suggested above does not occur to people at all. When people look for an explanation for their religious commitment, they do not think of the option that there is—and needs to be—no explanation. The “just because” explanation is not an option, for as is well known, “just because” is “not a reason.” But alas, contrary to what we are constantly told, “just because” is actually the ultimate reason. This is not an arbitrary “just because,” just because I feel like it. Nor is it the claim “I observe because that’s how I was raised” (a foolish and even appalling statement, in my eyes; any pagan or ISIS member also does what he was raised to do). It is an essential “just because.” It is the most basic truth and therefore does not require an external explanation—therefore there is and can be no such explanation.

This is the reason people invent explanations like acting out of gratitude (see my article here), or that faith and religious commitment are tools for a good life; the commandments make us better and more moral people; or any other benefit, physical or spiritual. I do not believe any of that, and in my view factually it is not really true and does not really work. But again, people are forced to cling to those slogans; otherwise, they will have no good explanation for their way of life.

What I want to argue is that there is such an explanation: I am obligated—just because! It is a fundamental value for me and it requires no explanation. My claim is that because people are unaware of this option, they concoct all sorts of other explanations for themselves that do not really hold water. We know such phenomena from neuroscience. I discussed this in my book The Sciences of Freedom, but see here for a simple description of a similar phenomenon in people with split brains (I recommend ignoring the foolish conclusions drawn there from these phenomena. After all, this is the Hofesh site, and one should not expect too much):

In an elegantly simple experiment conducted by a group of researchers led by Michael Gazzaniga at Dartmouth College, they showed images to the left and right hemispheres of a split-brain patient, and then asked each hemisphere to choose an image that would go with the one shown at first. To the right hemisphere they showed (through the left half of the visual field) a house covered with snow. Quite logically, the hemisphere chose a picture of a snow shovel. To the left hemisphere they showed (through the right half of the visual field) a chicken’s foot, and it chose a chicken’s head—again, quite logically. Afterwards, the researchers verbally asked the patient to explain his choices. The left hemisphere was the only one that could express itself, but remember—it did not know why its right-hemisphere mate chose the shovel, since the information about the snow-covered house did not pass through the damaged corpus callosum. The patient’s answer was nothing less surprising than illuminating: “Oh, that’s simple. The chicken’s foot goes with the chicken (which was true), and you need a shovel to clean the chicken coop (a plausible but wrong answer).” In other words, the left hemisphere acted as an interpreter of the person’s worldview and simply made up a story to fit the available information!

A person supplies himself with explanations to rationalize his choices. When he has no reasonable explanation at hand, he invents something else. Cognitive dissonance exists in split-brain patients, and certainly in a person with a whole brain. This is what happens to many of us at the intellectual level: the blindness we have regarding part of the picture (essential “just because” explanations) causes us to complete it in strange ways that seem relatively sensible to us. Anything is preferable to remaining with an inconsistent and illogical picture.

This is the source of the explanations about the wondrous benefit that observing commandments has for our lives and about our becoming better people. No fact will move us from these baseless conclusions; otherwise, we are left without a justification for our way of life. Our entire lives are presented as an empty vessel. No wonder cognitive dissonance works overtime here!

But there are those who are more honest. They are unwilling to adopt these concoctions—but then they abandon their religious commitment or simply continue with it out of inertia. Both are making the same mistake: indeed, all those explanations are incorrect, but that does not mean religious commitment is irrational and not mandated.

Back to Racheli Rotner

Racheli Rotner is one of those honest people, but she conducts herself differently from those two ways: she doesn’t buy the penny-worth explanations, but she also doesn’t abandon. Despite all the questions, she finds herself committed and observant. True, she does not understand why she herself does this—but that does not stop her from continuing. She has no answer, but she does not abandon. My claim is that she has no answer because she is not looking in the right place. She seeks an answer in the planes of benefit and the goals of religious commitment, but, as noted, such an answer does not exist and cannot exist. Therefore she rightly concludes that those answers do not persuade her and cannot explain her conduct.

In my estimation, the correct explanation for her behavior is that she is obligated: “just because.” She understands that this is the truth and that a divine command must be fulfilled. Period. But such an answer does not arise in her mind as the answer of a rational person (you need to get used to philosophical-Wittgensteinian thinking to adopt it), and therefore she searches for answers in those realms—utilitarian and “spiritual”—and of course does not find them. I claim she does not decipher herself correctly, and it seems to me that not a few religious people are in a similar state (hence the flood of responses to her post).

This claim of mine concerns many who continue to observe and be committed without having answers. I claim that they are in fact observing because of this reason.[3] Moreover, many of those who concoct other answers—ones that do not persuade me and, in my view, not even themselves—deep down probably understand that faith and religious commitment are a basic value that requires no explanation. They serve the Lord “just because,” because He commanded. This is the inner truth for them—but they themselves do not know how to formulate it to themselves and to diagnose that this is their deep motive (because it is a fairly sophisticated diagnosis, even though it looks simple on its face). Therefore they try to rationalize it—that is, to ground that commitment on a more basic rationale (which for some reason will not need a rationale—otherwise we are in an infinite regress), just like the completion the brain makes about the tractor shovel needed to clean the chicken coop. No wonder they live with embarrassment or some internal conflict. They have no explanation or answer, but they continue. The reason is that deep in their hearts they understand that no answer is needed. They know, even if not consciously, that when God commands, we are obligated to fulfill. But they do not manage to understand that and therefore fall into odd rationalizations of various kinds.

By the way, even in the moral context, people who begin to ask why be moral usually concoct ridiculous answers of various kinds. There, too, it stems from the same intellectual helplessness (that there is no answer). As I explained, the truth is that there is—and can be—no answer in terms of more basic values (values that explain why to be obligated to moral values). This is also the meaning of Kant’s categorical imperative. The imperative is categorical because it is not conditioned on more basic values. Kant does not bother to explain why to be moral, because the imperative is categorical. He only tries to define the content of the imperative (“Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law”), but does not touch its validity—that is, the reason it is binding; why obey it. Yet even in the moral context, most people do not consider this option because it seems irrational. Therefore they look for another explanation (they rationalize), and when they do not find a plausible explanation, they turn to the realms of the tractors.

My paternalistic claim is that the behavior of these people attests to what they themselves think in the depths of their souls, much more than what they themselves say. What they say are excuses formulated after the fact and out of lack of choice—but deep down they act for the right reason. They conduct themselves morally because there is an obligation to be moral, and they conduct themselves out of religious commitment because there is an obligation to obey the divine command. The explanation for the moral obligation, like that for the religious obligation, is: “Just because!” I claim this is an excellent and super-rational explanation. In fact, it is the only possible rational explanation. I suspect that after you examine it you will discover that it nests within you, only you did not know how to formulate it to yourselves. I also suggest that Racheli Rotner examine this option.

This is why I disagree with the claims against Racheli Rotner. I indeed do not think a utilitarian search for an explanation can ground religious commitment. On the contrary—religious commitment, like moral commitment, is only commitment that is not done for benefit. But this is an argument against those who supply explanations and those who abandon commitment due to the lack of explanations. Those who, even in the absence of a utilitarian explanation, continue on the path—and for that earn torrents of scorn—are the only rational ones. Their conduct tells us and them, as well as Racheli, that deep inside she acts for non-utilitarian reasons, and those are the right reasons. I have criticism of her search and of the kinds of explanations she proposes and rejects—but the fact that she continues nonetheless says she acts correctly and for the right reasons, only she apparently does not understand herself (because she is not aware of the option of the “just because” explanation).

[1] See on this in the article by Yaakov Yeshua Ross, “Why Observe the Commandments,” in the collection Religion and Morality (edited by Avi Sagi and Daniel Statman). Among other things, he discusses there a similar answer Wittgenstein gave to this question.

[2] I write “apparently,” since it is possible that all human beings experience this, only they suppress it because it feels like irrational conduct. See more on this below.

[3] The claim that this is “a commandment learned by rote,” i.e., mere habit, does not persuade me at all. Some observe halakhah seriously and meticulously even when no one is watching. The “by rote” is a rebuke from “mashgichim” (in the Yeshiva sense) who do not understand this state.


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137 תגובות

  1. I read and didn't understand one point: What is the criterion that, in your opinion, distinguishes the two types of "so"? Or would you say that there is no such criterion (and it is itself an additional, third "so")?

    1. The question is not clear to me. When I think it is true, then it is “that” essential. And when I choose arbitrarily, it is “that” arbitrary.

      1. According to your last words, it is a psychological criterion. When I actually think that something is “true” then it is so and when it is considered “not true” then it is not.
        In other words: According to your answer, the logical or theoretical structure of the ”so”

        1. What logical structure could there be for ”like this”? Is there a logical structure for the axioms of geometry? I understand that it is true and therefore I think it is true.

          1. You yourself distinguished between two types of “like this”. And not only did you distinguish, but you took the trouble to explain the usefulness of this distinction. In fact, you devoted an entire column to this distinction.
            Now when I ask you on what basis you distinguish between the two types (i.e. how you justify the distinction), you have at your disposal, in your own opinion, the two options you described above: 1. The distinction between the two types of ”like this” is itself arbitrary 2. The distinction is not arbitrary (although it is not justified).

            In light of this, I ask the simple question again: Which of the two types that you yourself described are relevant to establish your distinction?

            Regarding the analogy to geometry, I suspect that it is not relevant, but even if so, this is a marginal matter for our discussion.

              1. If this is your answer, I would like to examine with you, very carefully, whether your claim is consistent.

                Let's put things in order again for the sake of clarity of discussion:

                According to you, we have 2 types of “like this” (both are devoid of justifications but only one of them is arbitrary).
                In addition to this, you claim that the criterion for distinguishing between the two types is itself based on type 2 (“like this” not arbitrary).

                Here, a difficulty appears in your position: if the criterion for distinguishing between ”like this” is of type 2, at most it can only be presented but not substantiated (i.e., justified).

                But as far as I am concerned, your column violates this principle, since it tries to provide, after all, reasons for what you claimed. In other words: you are trying to justify what you claimed cannot be justified.

              2. Doron, this is unnecessary rambling. When we talk about words, we use words. We have no other tool. When we talk about logic, we use logic. We have no other tool. When we talk about a way to adopt insights, we adopt insights. We have no other tool.
                This column did not try to prove anything, but rather to describe and clarify feelings that people have inside. There is no reason to do this even for unreasoned things. I have explained several times that this is precisely the main point of rhetoric: examining basic assumptions (the ”thus”).

              3. And this too:
                https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%94_%D7%A9%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%91_%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8_%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%9B%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%A1

              4. What you identified in the column in others is manifested in you: a lack of understanding of what you yourself are saying.

                Contrary to what you wrote in your last response, your column does not only try to “describe and clarify” but also claims to provide an explanation (i.e., reasoning) for why it is right to adhere to certain truths (“such”) even though they are devoid of reasoning.

                Rachel, for example, if she had read your column and been convinced, she would have been able to find a justification - which until now she has been unable to achieve, according to you - for her behavior that you are so sympathetic to.

                So far, a more accurate description (in my opinion) than your explanation of the basic idea behind this column.

                Now comes my criticism (I am repeating myself, but I probably did not explain myself well before or you simply did not understand):

                This basic idea conflicts with the sweeping rule you formulated according to which it is not possible to provide justifications for that basic idea…

                I would also like to point out that your appeal to tautologies (talking about words and logic is also done with words and logic...) does not serve you, but rather the exact opposite. If words and logic have such a decisive weight (I of course agree with this), it cannot be avoided, as you tried to do in your last response. The problem here is not that you claimed something unreasoned (which can still be considered rational), but that you went so far as to claim a contradictory claim, as I showed above.

    2. Different in what sense? In terms of meaning, there is a huge difference – whether the ”like this” is meaningful or arbitrary.
      In terms of understanding whether it is the first or the second type, it is a matter of worldview. The argument here is that people think their ”like this” is arbitrary, when in fact it is actually meaningful.

    3. And yet, those who come to the conclusion that these are not the commandments that God commanded, or: If there is a God, these are certainly not his commandments. These religious commandments are the moral thoughts of people who are relatively ignorant of us. Kant's categorical imperative sounds much more logical as a commandment of God than the commandments and anecdotes that Racheli Rottner is careful to follow, despite the romantic and nostalgic aspect of maintaining a long-standing tradition.

      1. You are making several assumptions here, none of which I agree with. For some reason you decided that the commandments are the moral values of ignorant people. If you assume that these are not commandments of God, then of course there is no point in discussing them. You assume that the categorical imperative is as logical as a commandment of God, and I disagree with that too. On the contrary, it is much less logical. I explained in the first commandment that it is unlikely that God created the universe for morality because morality is about creating a reformed society. But it is not logical to create a society so that it will be a reformed society. Don't create it and there will be no need for it.

        1. This is not a claim at all because his desire was that we would be the ones to create the reformed society.

  2. Notice how much of a (not serious) hobbyist Miki is.

    Racheli Rotner wrote:
    “A thousand liberal rabbis who embrace gays will not change the fact that the Bible says they are an abomination”

    And Mikhi wrote:
    “I have a weakness for free and honest people who do not take into account the Kabbalah”

    Does anyone know a Bible that says that homosexuals are an abomination?
    It explicitly says that only ***male intercourse*** is an abomination.
    If someone has a homosexual tendency, and does not sin by having intercourse with a male, he is not abominable.
    Indeed, an amazing sentence by Mrs. Rotner, and also a very critical and serious reading by “the philosopher” Mikhi.

    Oh Mikhi, Mikhi.
    Don't be surprised later that 99% don't take you seriously. . .

    1. Excuse me, but all this artificial separation between homosexuals and homosexuals, remember, what is its nature? And even if it is practically true, what does it give? I have seen this claim repeated over and over again on all sorts of pages of organizations – the bottom line is what does it give?

      1. This means that if a gay man remains single his whole life (like a virgin) and also hides his tendencies well, then society will not suppress and humiliate his appearance.

        1. Hello Mualem,

          You are saying things that are not true.
          Like 99% of religious people, I have no problem embracing a homosexual (religious or not) as a person.
          The problem is with the abominable act itself, not with the tendency that exists in it.
          Again, 99% of religious people have no problem with homosexuals as people. There is a problem with the act itself.
          It is a shame that you are being incited by incompetent (and unreliable) people like Mikhi, who want to create the feeling that religious people hate homosexuals.

          Besides, what do you think about Mikhi writing about a girl who is “honest”, when in the article itself it is clear that she is not honest at all?
          What does this say about Mikhi?
          Doesn't this mean that he is biased?
          Did I try to critically evaluate his words?

          1. Hate or not hate is of no interest to me. Everyone is welcome to hate in their hearts whoever they want as much as they want. I am interested in actions that are evident on the outside. Religious (and ”conservatives”, usually ignorant, all over the world) are prevented from improving respectful treatment and a variety of civil and social rights, in the name of some shattered delusion about a heinous act. In my opinion, your nose-picking (I have no other idea where you get your nonsense, if it doesn't come from there then say so) is a s-t-u-a-b Please stop picking your nose urgently and then I will warmly welcome you to the group of humans.
            What does it matter to me whether you are biased or not? Tell me, are you serious? In two hundred years, with the help of God, the rabbis will be twisting and turning with various and strange excuses to explain their historical evil deeds towards LGBT people, just as they are twisting and turning today to explain slavery.

            1. Mualem,

              In the last few days I watched a video about vegans (now distributed and back on YouTube).
              According to the intention of the film, anyone who is not vegan is morally inferior.
              In my opinion, the day is coming when certain societies in the world will begin to impose sanctions on meat eaters,
              and then they will also enshrine it in law.

              Will I have a problem with that?
              No!
              I have no problem, not in the declarative sense, where they think that vegans think I am less moral than them.
              And in a society where they will not allow me to eat meat, I will not live, or I will live and accept its laws without whining because I understand that this is the style of society.

              Now for homosexuality –

              This is a Jewish country. In a Jewish country, there are obviously conservative values. One of these values is that homosexuality is an abomination. Also, in a Jewish-believing-conservative country, homosexual families will not be allowed.

              So I understand that the world is changing, but it is not relevant to the Jewish-believing-conservative society.
              Therefore, I would be happy if you understood this, internalized it, and lived here happily and peacefully in the Jewish-believing-conservative society.
              Any kind of justification from the style of the libertine Michi, is doomed to failure, and will only increase the pain even more.
              The truth is simple and there is not much room for compromises and flexibility:
              Male intercourse – an abomination.
              There are no abomination parades.
              There are no rights for families of father-and-father mother-mother.

              Love you very much, Ehud.

              1. I have already written that I do not see stupidity as a reason for deletion, and therefore Ehud's messages remain here on the site. This is also not a reason for personal or non-subjective comments. Therefore, this message was deleted. M ”A.

              2. Disgusting response. Ehud expressed a super legitimate position, especially on a religious site. I'm surprised they didn't delete Mualem's response.

      2. Hello S. Eliezer

        First of all, what is abhorrent is the act (perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in what I wrote). And already at the declarative level, this has a very great significance. You are invited to watch a video by a rabbi, and not the words of a scoundrel like Mikhi:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUXQ46pv2FQ

        In practice, if only the act is abhorrent, and not the person himself, I assume that it has many moral and halakhic aspects.

        Besides, what do you think about Mikhi writing about a girl who is “honest”, when in fact the article itself shows that she is not honest at all?
        What does this say about Mikhi?
        Doesn't this mean that he is biased?
        Did I try to critically evaluate his words?

    2. Ehud,
      Regarding Racheli Rotner and her honesty. One of two things: Either she doesn't know the distinction in the Torah (or in yours?) between a person and a deed, or she does. If she doesn't, then she's just ignorant about this matter and not "dishonest" as you say.
      But I get the impression that she's a smart girl and does indeed know this distinction (this is of course just a guess on my part), but it doesn't follow that she's necessarily lying. I'm guessing that she made a mistake in her language and meant to say something like: attributing a male's sexual intercourse to an abomination is an immoral act in itself. If she had answered you in that language (which she got confused about), would you have changed your mind?

      1. Doron Shalom,
        The point is not Rottner (who is known mainly for negative headlines, and more than one of them), but rather Miki who emphasizes Rottner's talent twice, when, funny enough, a reading of the article shows that it is certainly impossible to define her talent.

        1. Ehud, I know your responses very well and I never suspected for a moment that she was on your radar. However, I showed you that what you said about her did not seem reasonable, and in any case, it also reflects on your claims towards me.

  3. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
    And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart.
    And you shall teach them diligently unto your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

    The Ramada’s commentary on the details of the commandment to love God: “And you shall teach them to your children—you shall teach them that almost nothing can be learned from the Torah.”

    Something is not right here.

  4. In my opinion, she is looking for utilitarian reasons only because she is not convinced that this is a divine command. In the absence of evidence (or high probability) that this is a divine command, she is left only to look for utilitarian reasons…
    It seems to me that the entire utilitarian discourse that the rabbi described arose only because of the assumption that there is no decision as to whether the path of the Torah and the commandments is indeed a divine command. Therefore, the argument of ”this way” loses its meaning.

  5. Your "like this" reminds me of Tuvia Behnek's "Tradition!" on the roof. Seemingly from a much simpler and less intellectual place, but in fact with the same meaning.

    1. It is certainly possible that this was the root of Tabia's story as well. Since many perceive tradition as an arbitrary matter (because that's how we were raised). But it is certainly possible, and in my opinion even more plausible, this interpretation. And if so, we even have a hymn for those who follow the doctrine of "this way" (Traditiin!): (:

  6. Wonderful article. Simply wonderful (although I believe it is not of the kind of argument that Rottner makes, but the point here is brilliant and wonderfully thorough). I have bookmarked it, for good life and peace.
    Thank you for this after all the …..
    [By the way, interestingly, and perhaps unconsciously, the perception here (I still need to delve deeper into the Kantian/Wittgensteinian sources to understand this well) corresponds wonderfully (and I am not sure if Michael will be flattered by this) with the Baal Shem”tan's perception of the commandments from the language of “tsevta”, and with the concept of “Keblat Ha'ol”, the root Hasidic Hasidic (which has been covered over the years with strings of garlic cloves from the son's ransom and key-shaped challah). Chen Chen]

  7. In the above column, the rabbi addressed Racheli's post as if the question was whether a divine command to keep the commandments makes me keep them.

    I think what she meant was that she did not have absolute certainty that it was a divine command and therefore, without benefit, she had no reason to keep them.
    I would appreciate a response

    1. We don't need absolute certainty. We don't have absolute certainty about anything, and yet we adopt positions and act on them.

  8. If the reason for keeping a commandment or observing moral precepts is "thus" essential, we find that those who do not understand the truth of this [such as we do with the mountain climber] have no reason to keep the commandments and morality.

    1. Indeed. But there are many people who understand this very well, and yet when they try to conceptualize this understanding for themselves they fail (as I explained in the column). They continue without knowing how to explain to themselves why, as with Rottner.

      1. It's like someone who doesn't understand why the axiom of geometry is true won't adopt it. But he would be wrong, of course. The same is true of faith and religious commitment.

  9. 1. Do you think it is within the person's choice to experience religious commitment, or is it beyond his control?

    2. Is an axiom not proven from our observation so far? That is, it is true that we did not walk with the lines to infinity to check that they did not meet, but as much as we did walk with them, they did not meet. What is not true of religious commitment.

    1. 1. In principle, it is definitely within the range of choice. Maybe not for everyone, but I suspect it is. A person has to try to experience it, it is not something that one is necessarily born with. Religious education is very helpful of course.
      2. The rule of induction is also an axiom (and David Hume really challenged it).

      1. What is “commitment” anyway? Is it a type of emotion? Like all the impulses and desires we have?
        Is that mountaineer's commitment to climb Everest equivalent to a religious commitment?

  10. It is clear that if we have already dealt with psychology, the issue of consciousness is important here.
    If a person chooses to live in a Haredi or very Haredi consciousness according to which God Almighty and the Torah are a factually correct reality, first of all 100 percent without any question or doubt, just as the sun rises in the morning. And secondly, to determine that all literal norms that conflict even slightly with the Torah or Halacha are automatically garbage, and perhaps even more so that the very moral intuitions outside of Halacha or outside of religion are automatically garbage. Then life is easier.
    More on this level, you worship God Almighty and the Torah simply because it is the truth. The morality and will of God Almighty are perhaps essentially the same thing. Because what God Almighty commanded and what the Jewish tradition defines as true and right are probably also the truly moral and good things. Therefore, and in accordance with all the examples it has mentioned (the attitude towards the needy, the value of tolerance and equality between human beings, and all enlightenment), they are actually things Invalid. Perhaps they also come from the Sitra Achra. And perhaps all the people who advocate such morality are actually deep down rotten and spoiled. Like pig fangs who come to say: ”I am pure!” .
    And the inner meaning? If God exists without question, the Torah is true without question, there are no questions and no answers. So the meaning that a person can find is in classic answers in which this world is a procedure for the world to come.
    She is talking here about the paradox created by people who are educated in a modern religious education system - trying to instill in us a Judaism that also comes with tolerance for the better. A Judaism that also comes with love for the Gentiles. All of this is portrayed as part of the Torah. From the Torah itself, enlightened is the one who is demanding the people of Israel as a patrol. The one who is demanding the righteous woman who is the queen of the house and reveals a unique new face in the Torah - I don't buy it. And not the strictures of respect for the Gentile, respect for the gay, respect for the weak, abnormal, sick, poor pervert. (As Yigal Canaan said in his golden words. Credit for the eyes goes to him. He is one of the people who provocatively takes care to shatter the illusion that Torah and enlightenment are two gloves that go together.) And then she finds herself trapped. I am a feminist. I am tolerant. I love a person. And all of this doesn't work out for her. Or even contradicts her belief in God and the Son He commanded. But she still believes in Him in some way. And she simply tries to tell herself why. Why does she believe in God? But she behaves with values that are seemingly opposite?
    And her answer is different in a kind of kitsch and disgusting but very authentic. She hasn't read your trilogy. Probably not even Leibowitz's words about serving God for His sake. And she doesn't recognize the concepts of two parallel value systems. So her answer is: God is the source of morality. Without God, in fact, all morality is invalid and has no meaning. There is no meaning to human experiences, to birth. Or value to human life. Therefore:
    We must also give God a place. To keep a final contract with him even though we are hypocrites who most of the time do not obey him and do not follow exactly what he commanded, so we give him the minimum possible. And hope that it will be enough and somehow it will be okay. A kind of folk+ traditionalism. Only one in a version that is not at peace with itself. But tormented by the sins that have become routine.

    To be honest, I wish I had her level of self-honesty. In matters of God. And in all areas of life.

  11. The way here is not that I keep the commandments just because I feel like it, but that I believe in God (because she really does) and therefore I keep the commandments. It is not arbitrariness of the will but arbitrariness of faith and with that I very much agree.
    This can be seen as the inverse of the rape of opinions that the Radb”z talks about. She is not forced not to believe but forced to believe. Her claim is counter to the secular claim that religion is a temptation that a mature person overcomes (this is actually the assumption that Persico presents in his new book). There is no temptation here. She is a mature, autonomous and believing person. That's it. She believes and therefore keeps the commandments.

    (This also answers Doron's question about what the difference is between the different types of how)

    1. By the way, she herself tries to rationalize her belief in God as the organizing factor of reality. I'm not sure how much she herself believes in it. It's better to just admit that she believes and that's it.
      From a psychological perspective, it seems that she is bothered by the price other people pay for her belief. It would be good if she were also happy in her belief, as it is said, "For you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart."

  12. Shalom Rabbi. Truly a very special article, it really made me feel at ease in its entirety.
    My question is a bit side-tracked to the article, but it is necessary for it:
    So it turns out that we have several types of this in life: this is morality, this is faith in it, and so on. 1. Doesn't it follow that we believe in multiple deities? 2. And what really happens when two of these meet? Who wins? After all, they are not dependent on each other..?

    1. 1. Not every “thus” places God at its base. But when there is an entity in the background, they all have to be the Almighty. This is also the result of Occam's razor. I explained this in the first statement.
      2. There is no difference between two “thus” and a conflict between two values of the same “thus” (like a moral conflict, i.e. a conflict between two moral values).

  13. “Here I only want to claim that what I have no explanation for is not a flaw in my understanding”

    It is clear that you would want to claim this, since it is clear and known to every intelligent person that it is a major flaw when a method is based on mere whims.

    And in general, is this claim also based on value, or does the need to justify values (which, on the whole, satisfy psychological needs) justify all means?

  14. Side note: I don't think Leibovitz himself used the term "arbitrariness" even once. It's just that various Leibovitz scholars have used it incorrectly.

    1. On the contrary, on the contrary.
      It is precisely from the approach of Rama that one can jump over Stirner – because in fact even the ’I’ and the greatest ego (for its own perception of course, for the perception of others it is devoid of any value and existence, and even more so institutional entities – which are fundamentally false (absolutely according to Stirner, and relatively according to almost every other philosophical approach)), is:
      a. The creation of the commandment (of course, and the Rema forgot to mention this in the article, because the entire acceptance of the commandments, and the “thus” offered as a reason, is based on the assumption that the first commandment is also the giver of the personal and individual Torah at Mount Sinai and Sheva. And there really was no need to mention this in the article “Response” to a person who assumes that he is religious and believes in God – which is absolutely impossible according to Stirner, and therefore this approach of the Rema will never lead to ethical egoism, given the duality inherent in all religious matters, between physicality and spirituality).
      B. The commandment is the root truth, and its commandments are truth like it, and therefore the “I” The creature's belief that by fulfilling the commandments, "this is how", does not realize himself at all, because on the contrary, his "I" presents him with a different image (say, one that is at the basis of Stirner's theses), and he "forces" him, or more accurately (at least at the moment of the act of the commandment) "transforms" him, into the "I" of the commandment, and therefore this perception, in its purity, can never lead a person to anarchism/egoism. Because the claim "this is how" no longer comes from himself, but from an external side to him (according to his perception of himself), which, unlike the perception of anarchism, is Absolute and objective, infinitely more than the subject (the human self) itself. And on that the rest of the Torah is built, in fact.
      And then you are a complete failure.

  15. Hello Mikhi

    One note for now regarding an axiom – I quote from Wikipedia
    “An axiom, truth, or premise[1] (archaic spelling: axiom) is a proposition that is treated as true and self-evident. The origin of the word “axiom” is from Ancient Greek (αξιωμα), and means “a self-evident principle”, which does not require proof.

    In mathematics and logic, an axiom is a basic assumption (or “starting point”) in a particular logical system, which is treated as true. A common misconception is that axioms are “intuitive and basic truths that are self-evident”, but axioms do not require such a formulation, but only the satisfaction of a basic premise that one does not attempt to challenge (since it is a statement). The combination of several axioms is called an axiomatic system. The axiom system of a mathematical theory forms the basis for proving the theorems included in this theory.”

    1. That's exactly what I wrote. Just a note on the second part: The mistake is to treat the axiom only in this way, because it is only one of the two types of axioms (= the two types of ”this way”). But it is clearly one of the two types.

  16. Hello again Miki-
    I wanted to offer another explanation for her words-

    Maybe you believe/value 70% 30% in favor of the commandments, etc.’
    And she believes/values 70% 30% in favor of secularism – But still she doesn't abandon it for the reason she said – Because it's personally difficult for her to accept such a chaotic world, even though she may know that it is. And therefore she prefers to be in a kind of agreed-upon and utilitarian social lie. Even though she hasn't researched to the end… And maybe she prefers not to research to the end.
    She herself asks – What will she pass on to her children? Etc.’
    Or maybe she's not that philosophical – But is influenced by her secular environment and sees justice in their approach?
    You can just ask her…
    Ketoni

    1. This is a strange psychology for me. A person who lies to himself. I prefer my explanation, but of course I am not a psychologist and I do not know it. In any case, it is not the subject. What I wanted to say is that there is such a human condition and it is worth being aware of it. It is certainly possible that the condition you describe also exists in people.

  17. I still try to accept your distinction between two types of axioms: muscular and ”intuitive truth”
    The second type is validated by the entire structure that is based on and works (for now) in the world – and therefore the axioms are reinforced.
    In my opinion, information can flow from the world to us perfectly (see the channel capacity theorem)
    Therefore, the axioms are also intuitively true – they are actually true because the entire structure above them works well enough in reality.

    1. This continues your previous comment (from Wikipedia), which I also didn't understand. Don't you accept my observation? After all, you wrote the exact same thing.

      1. Now I understand, you say that the truly meaningful axioms are a subset of the axioms in general. It seems that Wikipedia accepts this but weakly, because otherwise it would have clarified it. Wikipedia in English on the subject says that in the mathematical field it is different in categories. And in the philosophical field axioms are indeed self-evident truths.
        In any case, it seems to me that lines accept this definition. The axiom of parallels is that through a point outside the line passes one and only one parallel line, and perhaps there are alternative axioms.
        In any case, we had fun.

        1. And another idea - that the blog will be made in the form of a final page and all the comments and polemics will be around it - but some will say that this is disrespectful - so maybe it can be changed.

        2. See different wordings here: https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A7%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D
          But it really doesn't matter. No one has seen another parallel that passes through the same point, but not seeing is not evidence.

  18. And another note regarding the trilogy, part one, page 496, I suggest to you, Hillel, that when you encounter an argument or report of a revelation that parallels the one that passes through Jewish tradition, examine them according to the criteria suggested here, one by one: 1. What exactly are the details and is there accuracy in their description compared to the sources? 2. How many people were present at the original event, etc. 3. What was the sequence of the report?

    It feels to me like shooting the arrow and then marking the target.

    1. And I don't. If the criteria make sense then I don't understand how you claim that the match is pre-made. Or do you think the criteria don't make sense - then explain why.

  19. It can be said in the same way that all those who seek utilitarian reasons for serving God do not truly believe that the commandments are from God and therefore sacred.

  20. The ugly, deceitful, and propagandistic dichotomy between human actions and human beings arouses endless hatred in me (I love you as a person, I hate your actions as a homosexual), all in the service of religious beautification. What am I if not my actions? It is impossible to love me in isolation from what I do, because that is what we are.

    1. This message is not correctly placed. But according to your words, it is completely possible. It is factually correct and also in terms of the sources (sins will be orphaned). I also elaborated on this in several places that love does not address actions but rather the person (actions are the medium through which you meet the person).

  21. And it seems to me that for an intelligent girl like Racheli Rotner, the Jewish bookcase can help. And even to ultimately arrive at Rabbi Michi's idea in his answer. It's worth giving the bookcase a chance too.

  22. A question for Rabbi Michi and anyone who holds the view presented here. What is the definition of morality? What falls under this umbrella of what does not require a reason? Suppose someone who opens and closes doors all day long on the grounds that it is necessary, will also be exempt from a reason since this is his moral choice?
    I don't understand

    1. If that's what a person really thinks, then that's what they'll do. I will of course look at it as foolish because I don't find within myself the understanding that this is the right way to act. My criterion is personal and not universal: If you are convinced that this is true, then for you it's the right thing to do. That doesn't mean that everyone will agree with you.

  23. What intellectual wretchedness!

    The comparison between a mathematical/geometrical/logical axiomatic system and a moral axiomatic system is baseless. You don't have to believe in Euclid's axioms. But try designing a structure based on alternative axioms. Stands on its own? Great, go live young couple. You don't have to believe in the axioms of Diophantus and his friends, but try designing a car or a plane based on alternative axioms. Does the car drive? Does the plane fly? Great. Drive safely (keys inside).

    But to say that murder is forbidden “like this” is wretched in its wretchedness, and even more so a commandment whose source of authority is “like this” (And the blabbering of the ”laws” in the law “like this”, literally Purim-Tiyare). And because you imagine we did something? Is it possible to base the laws of property and souls in the Torah on “like this”? Is there any greater folly than that?

    The Bible itself (in countless places) emphasizes that the basis for God's claim to fulfill the commandments is the covenant, and not &#8220like this”. That is, a mutual commitment by God, who chose us from all the nations and brought us out of slavery to freedom so that we would keep His commandments and Torah. The Holy One emphasizes: “And even this, when they are in the land of their enemies, they shall not be driven away nor driven away to break my covenant with them, for I am the Lord their God” (Leviticus 26:4). In other words, exile is not a breach of the covenant between the Holy One and the people of Israel, since it is nothing more than a punishment for their breaking the covenant, and therefore they are still obligated to fulfill the commandments, as the prophet Isaiah also says: “Thus says the Lord: Is this the book of your mother’s circumcision that I sent away, or which of the creditors to whom I sold you? For in your iniquities you were sold, and in your transgressions your mother sent you away” (Isaiah 50:1) and so on in countless other places in the Bible and in the words of the Sages. The Seven Commandments of the Noahide Children are also based on the covenant between God and humanity after the flood as explained in Genesis (chapter 9).

    Micah was driven into this heart-wrenching misery after he expelled God from the world and denied His involvement in it based on his “observations” (what arrogance, and Rabbi Moshe had already hit him on the head with his fist in this matter). In other words, Micah annuls the covenant between God and humanity in general, and with the people of Israel in particular (even the return to Zion is for him a process that somehow unfolded for him, without God’s involvement). In the absence of mutual commitment, Micah was forced to create a unilateral commitment “like this.”

      1. I explained, like it is ”obligatory” to believe in Euclid's axioms. Try alternatives and see if it works. God is not obligated to create the world and is not obligated to maintain it, nor is He obligated to take you out of Egypt, etc. All of this was based on a covenant, and whoever breaks the covenant will bear the consequences. Your choice.

        1. That is, in your opinion, there is no obligation to keep the commandments and it is all a matter of reward and punishment (in the Bible; because the reward of the commandments of the Baha'i Alma is as follows, as can be seen). Did I understand correctly?

          1. It took Micah three thick volumes to lay out his (defective) Mishnah, and from me, who have no philosophical pretensions, do you expect an exhaustive answer on Talkback?

            And yet, in short. As God’s creatures, we are guests in His world, and therefore He has the right to impose on us what His wisdom has decreed. After the flood, the commitment was strengthened by a covenant with humanity (symbolized by the rainbow) that included a commitment by God not to destroy the world (probably meaning not to destroy it before its time, which I do not know), in exchange for humanity’s commitment to the Seven Commandments of the Children of Noah. At Mount Sinai, the people of Israel were chosen in another covenant with God (which was strengthened in the plains of Moab, and the “Hadar” accepted it in the days of Ahasuerus, Shabbat 588) in which the people of Israel took upon themselves the Torah in exchange for their choice. The obligation to keep the commandments is based on reward and punishment (the Torah and the prophets explicitly emphasize this), with the punishment being for “breaking my covenant”, but it also has an additional level.

            The additional level is belief in G-d as ”God of faith and there is no injustice”, which requires that there is a reason for the commandments and that their fulfillment is “truth”. Why? I don't know, but it really isn“like this”, unless by ”like this” you mean ”thus His blessed wisdom decreed”. It is “like this” Completely different from a person's obligation to the burden of Torah and mitzvot (and in the days of the Sanhedrin also the laws of life) just because "thus" Michai felt in his intuition. We do not know the reasons for the mitzvot, and according to Maimonides (at the end of the Laws of Misconduct and elsewhere) it is appropriate to search for them, but not to condition the mitzvot on their knowledge since "searching God will find"?

            This is much less than concise and absolutely does not answer all the questions and difficulties, and it is doubtful whether anyone has a comprehensive and satisfactory answer. I could certainly be wrong, and even so, my proposal is a much more respectable basis for your intellect than "thus" which is entirely Michai's personal subjective intuition. And you are a complete scoundrel.

            1. I haven't read the thick volumes (yet), so in the meantime, help me understand what's written in your talkback:

              A. “As God's creatures, we are guests in His world, and therefore He has the right to impose upon us what His wisdom has decreed”. There is a component here on our part why it is our duty as guests to carry out the host's commands, and a component on His part why He is permitted to command and impose. I am not concerned with the component on His part, but with the component on our part. Why is it the duty of guests to carry out the host's commands? If we have (finally) arrived at a fundamental principle that is self-evident, then this is what is called here “thus”.
              B. If reward and punishment is an additional level above the basic level, *and even without it there would be an obligation to keep the commandments*, then I have no complaints. This is also what I think on the subject. Whether reward and punishment are in the world to come or also in the world to come in some ultra-sophisticated and hidden system, I do not know and it matters less to me.
              C. The level that has a purpose For the commandments and their existence is truth seems absolutely correct to me, but I do not agree at all that this is a positive status for the commandments. I would keep the commandments of God even if they had no meaning. But I definitely agree with the assumption that they probably have a higher and hidden spiritual meaning.

              1. I mentioned at the beginning of my previous response that I have no philosophical pretensions, and even if I did, it certainly wouldn't be possible to cover the subject in a few lines on Talkback. What prompted me to respond was the intellectual wretchedness that Mikhi demonstrated here, who has and still has pretensions as a philosopher. (By the way, unlike psychologism in its dime, I don't suffer from any “obsession” towards it, certainly not personally, but if it is psychologism, I can offer a psychological analysis of it here that won't add any respect to it, but I will refrain from doing so both because I am not personally hostile to it, and because it is its shelter, and because I despise all psychologism, even that which supposedly serves me.) At the end of the response, I mentioned that I doubt whether a comprehensive and satisfactory answer exists. Your question is an opportunity to explain why.

                As is known, the Maimonides in the Teaching of the Perplexed claimed that God is subject to the laws of logic, and that this does not undermine His entire authority. Various philosophers and rabbis (such as Rabbi Aharon Lechtenstein, the late) went further than him and claimed the existence of an independent and autonomous morality to which God is also, so to speak, subject. While I feel a certain embarrassment regarding God's subjection to logic and have no clear understanding of the subject, I am clear that the claim is baseless. First, it is clear that it is not appropriate to claim that God is also subject to morality "in this way." It is not appropriate for a person to speak of a morality that has an independent existence in relation to God, and just as he and his wisdom are one, so too is he and his morality, which is nothing but him and his will, and God is subject to his will to the same extent that he is subject to himself. All the chatter and attempts to create an independent and autonomous morality are, in my opinion, mere empty words.

                Since morality is nothing but God's will, there is no independent morality that must be observed because of some internal intuitive feeling "this is how it is," and Kant's categorical imperative is a form devoid of content (and in this, my predecessors are wiser than me, unless you say that God imprinted his will on our "operating system." It may be, but it is not "that way"). The will of God is the law of nature. However, His wisdom decreed that man be given free choice to deviate from it to a certain extent. Man can drink poison and die, but he can disobey God and not feel the consequences immediately so that free choice has meaning. (It is not appropriate to talk about free choice when a gun is pointed at your temple). But free choice was not given to us so that we can do whatever we want, but so that we can choose to enter into a covenant with God and thereby be privileged to draw close to Him, etc.

                You don't need to go back and make it difficult for me. I know that I haven't plugged all the loopholes and, as I have already mentioned at least twice, the issues are broader and deeper than I can offer here (and in general) and it is doubtful whether a comprehensive and exhaustive answer exists at all, and perhaps there is still some validity to the "muda'a rabba ol Torahita", etc.

                In general, it is better to remain in the truth than to offer poor answers that all came into the world only from the desire to remove God, His covenant and His providence from it (and without proper disclosure).

              2. I will summarize my position (in the essential part I learned it from the columnist's words, although in other places).
                I believe in reward and punishment and in providence (was there a Holocaust and a tsunami and sometimes the path of the wicked successful? No one dies from difficulties and perhaps when I am granted prophecy they will explain everything to me) and in the covenant of the people with God, the Almighty, and also in the fact that studying Torah and observing the commandments corrects the soul and leads to devotion to God, the Almighty.
                And yet all of these are additional levels for me and the foundation of observing the commandments is the recognition that I have a duty to obey in submission to the will of God, the Almighty. And this fundamental recognition cannot be based on anything.
                In the end, when you go down the reasoning, you arrive at something of personal pleasure (and why do I want pleasure? Like this) or a fundamental value (and why uphold it? Like this. It's not an outrageous "like this" of the kind my daughter uses to explain why she doesn't want to go to bed, but a "like this" that indicates we've reached the touchstone of values and reasoning).

              3. I can agree with the end of your words, but in a slightly different formulation - it's not a "thus" of the kind that Simchi uses ("thus" my intuition decreed and it obligates everyone in the world, even those who have a different intuition because those who have a different intuition are captive to imaginations, etc.), it's "thus" in the sense of "thus" His blessed wisdom decreed, which we cannot fully understand and comprehend, and probably not even in part.

                "Thus" empties Kant's categorical imperative of its content. I really don't care if the act I do becomes a universal law. The Almighty has the right to establish differential laws as He wishes, because His wisdom has decreed so. He owes nothing to the principle of equality (which I have never seen any value in, and if there is any value in it, it is probably negative) or to any liberal or other principle. He is obligated (if at all) only to what His wisdom has decreed. And that is it.

        2. No one said that one must believe in Euclid's axioms. They said that the correctness of the axioms cannot be reasoned (i.e., they cannot be derived from something prior to them). Have you checked and seen that parallel lines *never* meet? That cannot be checked. Regarding this, you said that one should not believe in anything and that everything is measured only empirically. But mathematics is not an empirical science and people are convinced by proofs even without having measured all the triangles that are possible in Euclidean space and seen that they all have exactly 180 degrees.

          1. True, the correctness of the axioms cannot be reasoned and therefore there is no “obligation” to believe in them. However, the fact that no contradiction has been found in them and the fact that what is built on their basis “works” (in whatever sense it may be), strengthens belief in them, and the same is true for mathematics, which is not an empirical science but what is built on its basis “works” (also empirically), etc. This is not proof that the axioms are correct – and who claimed that it was?
            You can argue that if you do not accept the axiom that it is forbidden to murder, society will not exist (and this is well to be doubted, and some beautiful models of “jungle economy’ and so on have already been published). If this is true, you have proven that there is a utilitarian value to the axiom that it is forbidden to murder, you have not yet proven any moral axiom here, and the reduction to ”such” is poor. (Like the ”reason”that”will create infinite regression. So what? Maybe it is self-evident proof that there is no morality?).

            1. Mordechai Mordechai, I gave you free golden advice (logic instead of obsession). Use it. Isn't it a shame?!
              First you repeat my words exactly as if there were your argument here, then you complain about my poor reductions and finally put a (metaphorical) question mark at the end. At least you should have learned the (metaphorical) punctuation rules a few years ago. So here's another lesson: when you completely agree with someone, you put a period at the end and not a question mark, and on the Internet you can also add an icon for approval or applause of agreement and enthusiasm.
              You say this here:
              The axioms are not proven based on the fact that they work (who said otherwise?!), but they work. And yet, we also assume that they are true. Why? “Like this”.
              Morality is also not proven based on the fact that it works. But it works (if we ignore the infantile example of the jungle). But we also believe it is true. Why? “Like this”.
              Ah, so now the difference between axioms and values is clear. Prov.

              1. The more you ramble, the more I get reinforcement for my position. This is not proof either, but only reinforcement…

                If you didn't understand, I didn't repeat your words but attacked them. We don't “determine” that axioms are true, but assume. Do I need to explain to you the difference between a working assumption and a factual determination? Intuition is respected in its place, a premise. But basing the entire Torah and commandments on an intuitive “like this” is intellectual wretchedness, and I explained above what I think pushed you to it.

                If I wanted to stoop to your level, I would quote Krylov (in Reichman's wonderful translation): “The fool declares with great simplicity – What he does not understand is nothing but nonsense”. Before you decide that the jungle is an "infantile example", how about reading some of these models and understanding them? Want references?

              2. Mordechai, your obsession makes you talk like a dog that has returned to Kiowa (if you keep saying the same nonsense over and over again and are fooling around, do you think that something more intelligent is being said here?!). I've seen people here who aren't very sharp pencils. But you, a talented Jew, are really pitiful and heartbreaking. Let's get carried away, so I'll end it here.

        3. Mordechai Shalit”A. You remind me of Mark Twain, who once received a letter with one word: “idiot”. He immediately replied with a letter of his own: “I have seen letters in which the writer forgot to sign his name, but this is the first time I have seen a letter in which there is only a signature without the content”.
          You bring a collection of ridiculous arguments and say them confidently as if you had pulled some terrible joker out of a hat. So I will answer you for your folly: Try to build a society based on other moral laws. Try to build the work of the ’ based on other halachic laws. This is just to show what nonsense you have spewed here. But to the point, all of these arguments are of course irrelevant. All of this is consequential reasoning. I am talking about self-validation. In morality, in halachic law, and in geometry, the fact that something works is no reason for its correctness. You're probably a little confused, we're not talking about science here.
          Also regarding the ”like this” and the alliance, you've already been answered well.
          If you try, for a change, to consider things on the level of logic instead of the level of obsession, I'm sure the results will improve. And then, complete nonsense.

          1. I sent the column with my first response to a friend and asked him to measure how long it would take for you to send me… did you meet my expectations…

            And what should I say? I stoop to your level and say that your response is like a letter with only the sender's name? Or is it like an empty letter? Maybe that's true, but what's the point?

            Indeed, consequential reasoning is not substantive reasoning. I only came to argue that ”thus” is not reasoning at all! It is at most an expression of a strong intuitive feeling. Oh, and nothing more. Basing the entire Torah and commandments on an intuitive feeling is nothing but intellectual wretchedness.

            The ”thus” in geometry and mathematics is not equivalent to ”thus” In ethics, and it is certainly possible to build a society based on other moral axioms (I mentioned in my response to "Techelet" that several beautiful models of "jungle economics" have been published in the economic literature that showed the existence of a "moral" equilibrium even without any moral axioms, and yet it is complete nonsense).

            "The fact that something works is not a reason for its correctness" – By God, that is what I said. So what did I get confused about? You are the one who got confused. When there is no reason for its correctness, we are left with nothing but a hypothesis or a belief. But it is not an arbitrary belief "like that" But a belief that receives reinforcements from various reinforcements (including the fact that it “works”). And in the sofa “truth and unstable” (which is not without errors but still has some things that are true).

            As for psychologism in the ghrosh (“obsession” etc.), here too I have a lot to say in response, but I will refrain from doing so for now.

  24. The tradition convinces me precisely because it is clear that the Torah was a law of life for people of all generations. From the Mishnah, the early and later Talmud, there are people who connected to the Torah and G-d in a natural and deep way, not an artificial and superficial one. This is a tradition that convinces me. The Gemara describes people who inspire confidence in me.

    If we want to continue the tradition, we must connect to the Torah. It is impossible for our entire inner world to be drawn from a secular and liberal culture and for the commandments to be just something we do as if we were possessed by a demon. "Connecting" means that the Torah will be a part of life, and for everyone this manifests itself in a different way.

    Racheli describes a situation in which she does not connect to anything, and this is not healthy for her Judaism or for the continuation of the tradition of the Jewish people.

    1. Maybe you're right that this is what's needed. The question is what you offer to those who don't connect. That's the crux of the discussion here.

      1. I completely agree with what you wrote about tradition. For me, it is no less convincing than proof of revelation. I suggest that those who do not connect with the commandments, and still want to observe them for some reason, go for spiritual therapy. Just as I suggest that an antisocial person who does not connect with the accepted moral laws - go for therapy.
        Idealizing the observance of Torah and commandments without emotion and without the feeling that it is good for you - is idealizing unhappiness

  25. Nice post. Just a small comment: Is the mere fact that something (- the Torah and the commandments) is “truth” but beyond that it has no meaning, isn't it difficult?
    That is: If I keep the commandments because it is the truth, but apart from that (-apart from the fact that I am doing the real deed) there is no meaning to my life (-I do not inherit life in the world to come thanks to this, I do not become more moral, I do not connect with God, I do not bring redemption to the world, etc., etc., simply nothing happens) - is this not a flaw in this truth itself? Is the truth of keeping the Torah and the commandments like the truth of the fact that there are two million species of ants in Africa (okay, that is the truth and I am willing to admit it, but what does that interest me? What does it concern me)? Isn't it true that the mere fact that the Torah and the commandments are divine truth (assuming they really are such) means that they must have a real impact on my life and not something superficial that is simply kept?
    I hope I asked in an understandable way.

    1. A completely understandable question. A few comments on incorrect assumptions in your words:
      1. The very fact that something is true is the most fundamental explanation for everything. Even when action X serves purpose Y, you can ask why purpose Y is needed. In the end, you will always end up with “this way.” Therefore, there is no escape from it, and it should not be a hindrance.
      2. I did not say that you do not inherit a commandment, but that a commandment should not be the reason why you keep it. In doing so, I merely repeated the words of the Rambam, which are present at the beginning of Pi Mehal Teshuva.
      3. I did not say that the mitzvot have no purpose. On the contrary, in my opinion they do. But I do not know it and therefore it cannot motivate me to perform them. Beyond the fact that if I do them for the purpose, it is work for no purpose. Just as morality brings good results, but I do not do it for the results but out of respect for the categorical imperative. Incidentally, in column 122 I showed that he who does the same for the results will not achieve them. It is possible that in the religious context it also works this way: only he who keeps for its own sake (=not for the results) receives the full results.
      4. The impact of the commandments does not have to be on my life. Maybe it is on the world, on God, or on anything else.
      5. Even if you are right that they must have an impact, the factual question is whether such an impact actually exists and whether you feel it. Racheli Rottner claims that she does not feel it. What do you think she should do? Abandon it?

  26. According to what you wrote, the whole point of religious obligation is that it is owed. So a gentile who is outside and has no obligation, why should he enter into the obligation? Not for him. If there is no other truth in it than the obligation that Jews owe, what is a gentile? Justice for you?

    1. I didn't understand the question. A Gentile who wants to worship God and be close to Him can come and convert. I'm not saying that there is no spiritual benefit from the mitzvot. What I said is that we don't know what it is, and that the benefit is not a sufficient reason for the obligation to keep the mitzvot.

  27. Please be ashamed of this column urgently
    You have turned the employees of the ’ into idiots

  28. On the 11th of Tammuz, 5th of September

    This post is appropriate for the parsha of Hachat, in which we encounter a mitzvah that is an incomprehensible ‘law’, and we accept it because the Creator decreed it that way. But it is very difficult to build a living Judaism that is entirely built on ‘thus’, and therefore the wise son asks ‘what are the testimonies and the laws and the judgments that the ’God has commanded you’. He also tries to understand the &#8216laws’, with the understanding that they also contain wonderful divine wisdom, which we have not yet been privileged to understand.

    Of course, it is impossible to delve into the depths of the wisdom of the Giver of the Torah, except by in-depth study of the ‘Jewish bookcase’, learning ‘from books and from scribes’, and as one withdraws from the shallow, stinging, and jumpy world of ’bohemia’, more and more space becomes available in the heart and mind to receive the ‘living water’ of Torah.

    With greetings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel”R

    1. On the 12th of Tammuz, 5th of September

      In any case, Mordechai and Esther did not see “so” as ”so”, but were required to give a long and detailed explanation ‘what they saw about “so” and what came to them’. Then when the Jews and their descendants were aware of the greatness of the grace of God who saved them from the hand of an enemy and avenger – then the Jews ‘voluntarily kept, what they had already received in the &#8217compulsion of Mount Kegigit’.

      The &#8217come’so’ It is not ‘just like that’, but stems from the awareness that the burden of the commandments imposed on Israel stems from ’thus shall it be done to the man whom the King – the King of the World – desires to visit’, and the burden of His commandments is intended to elevate and refine the souls of those who do them to become ‘a kingdom of priests and a holy nation’, the vanguard that proclaims to humanity the faith of the Torah and its values.

      When a person feels that the commandments ’ prepare him and his people to proudly carry his divine mission – he can also accept this or that detail that he does not understand, understanding that the creature cannot descend to the full depth of the wisdom of his Creator.

      Man can and is even commanded (in the commandments of Talmud Torah) to understand as deeply as possible, but just as we do not fully understand the laws of creation, and each new discovery raises new questions in us - so it is with the wisdom of the divine Torah, we strive to understand more and more, but are left with a space of "I said wisdom, and it is far from me."

      With blessings, Aisha

  29. A not-so-in-depth comment like the other discussions in the other comments - I think the Rabbi was referring to George Malory. Thomas Malory wrote the "Mortem Arthur" collection of stories about the Knights of the Round Table of King Arthur.

  30. Complex systems (such as an ethical or religious system) do not have to be hierarchical - in which case axioms are needed - but rather network-like. A network system derives validity (or at least some degree of reliability) from the connections between its parts and their consistency. In such a system there is no room for "so-and-so". A node in a graph that is "so-and-so" is an isolated island, which can usually be simply deleted.

    1. This is Quine's argument about understanding concepts, and I accept your comment in principle. But it does not fundamentally change the matter. One can still ask why you accept the whole network? Internal consistency is not a justification for external validity. There are many consistent systems, some of which contradict each other. The adoption of this particular consistent system is justified in this way.

      1. What anchors a network – so that it doesn't just float around in space – are the connections it has with nodes outside of it. A scientific theory is a network, and what anchors it is a connection to reality – the results of experiments (although they also depend on theory, but not only).
        Why is it possible to anchor the Jewish religion? There are various suggestions for this, from a sense of “sacredness” in the style of Rudolf Otto, through Kant, to tradition (to the point of certainty?) as suggested by the author of The Khazari.

  31. Because you and Moshe Rett have lost it
    As if 14 million people potentially are the essence of reality and the meaning of “God”, but it's just a delusion of grandeur of the two of you that creates two blogs like Knowing to Believe and your blog, and a few hundred more pages with ink smeared on them in typescript.
    Your religion and Moshe's is very, very dead.
    This is the main reason for this question, why be religious.
    The reasoning that you create with your blog in many people's minds, is embodied in the inability to shake off your supposedly rational thinking, to a slightly more logical and normal thinking that says that the meaning of life-the world-God is greater than 14 million people and a book written by dozens of people over a long period of time.
    Whoever breaks free from this reasoning before it becomes hopeless, experiences things differently, is not dead. This is something that you and Moshe cannot understand. That's why you lost it. And you will always come up with an excuse why you are not.. But that's okay, part of the moral place that cannot believe that he put people into a mental state just because “that's how” he works.

    PS I read every word you wrote in the trilogy and Moshe's books.

    1. Do you disagree with the correctness of the factual claim that God gave the Torah to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai (there is no discussion of this in the column) or with the ethical claim that if the above factual claim is correct then one must keep the commandments and why?

    2. Neriah, maybe you're confused. Resumes should be sent to workplaces, and statements to the press. This is a site for discussion and arguments.

  32. I don't disagree
    I wrote and said that Michai and Moshe are causing people mental paralysis by processing and perceiving thoughts that they (don't) have.
    The ability of many people to confront or tell them – Hey, listen, you're wrong, and misleading.. is not that great, so they continue on their false information highway to the rational and enlightened public that lives inside its own bubble.

    Michai and Moshe are wrong in their perception that (rational that God was revealed because) God needs a purpose outside the material world/high need. Therefore, rational that the religious ceremony that came in revelation.

    I don't feel like arguing with you or discussing with you. Not because I don't think you're right or wrong, because there's no point in my opinion.

    In the end, everything is divinity and the soul is part of divinity and the soul comes to experience things here in life itself in order to be rewarded, the experience of life itself is the meaning. This is learning. And it is a meaning that exists for every Homo sapiens creature with a soul.
    Not a distorted mental explanation that 14 million and a book are the pure logic behind everything, this ethnocentric bullshit is a self-curse of the “enlightened and rational” thought about the simple truth, which creates a distorted type who thinks he must prove (preferably in high words) everything with claims and justifications of I am enlightened and right and all the rest are stuck.

    With the amount of what I have read from them I would do a course on the mental explanation that Mishki and Moshe create for people, but it is not really essential to get out of the explanation. Only a person can free himself from his own explanation and the explanation is found mentally because it is based on personal psychology.

    So to.

    1. On the 12th of Tammuz, 5th of September

      To Neria, Greetings,

      The amazing innovation that the people of Israel are the “least of all nations” was already revealed by God in His Torah, and yet He chose this small people because they have the power to “transform the world.”

      When the Ten Commandments were given to Israel, they contained ideas that were foreign and strange to most civilized humanity: “I am the Lord your God”? After all, the entire civilized world worshiped idols. A prohibition on incest? After all, sexual permissiveness was “a practice of the land of Egypt.” The pinnacle of civilization at that time was ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy’? After all, everyone said that it was immoral to spend a seventh of one's time idle.

      And look, this is a wonder, the small people not only remained small, but became an exiled and humiliated people ‘dispersed and separated among the nations’, and precisely in their miserable condition – managed to assimilate some of their beliefs and values into significant parts of humanity, who accepted to a certain extent the idea of monotheism, and the weekly day of rest, etc.

      God chose Abraham because he was a unique person, ‘in a situation where he is one passage and the whole world is on the other side’, because he had a sense of mission and responsibility to bring his faith to the entire world, by way of explanation and personal example. And we follow in the path of Abraham and call upon the world without despair to join and accept the foundations of the Torah and its values embodied in the Seven Commandments of the Children of Noah.

      The people of Israel, as the pioneers of humanity, are directing the divine presence through the thirteen commandments, and in the footsteps of the priests, all of humanity will follow and accept the basic values of faith and morality, the Seven Commandments of the Children of Noah.

      With blessings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel

  33. Prayer,
    In light of your words, I am beginning to understand why the owner of the site turns his back on the reasons (see the column on the types of “like this”).

    What really hurts my heart is that a completely new character appears here (Mr. “Nmek”) and within 3 minutes, Miki is already referring him to job offers and other privileges that much older people haven't even dreamed of.
    Outrageous.

    1. You know, if the veterans had dreams, they would have accepted them too. Although there was once a column here that dreams have no halakhic weight even if there is reasonable basis to fear that they are true, I am assured by Miki that, against the fear of hurting hearts, he would fulfill dreams before the law.

  34. Rabbi Michi, I would like to clarify: Does “like this” actually mean fulfilling a mitzvah “for its own sake” in all its halachic meaning. That is, not to receive any benefit, because “like this”? Or is there a difference?

    1. These are two different levels: doing a mitzvah for its own sake and not for the sake of reward is one discussion. The discussion I am dealing with here is what the justification for the mitzvah is and why the obligation to obey is valid. This has no explanation in terms of reward or for its own sake. It is based on the ”like this”.
      In other words: I can say that the obligation to fulfill the mitzvah is valid, but I do not fulfill it unless I receive a reward. And conversely, the obligation is not valid but I will fulfill it in order to receive a reward.

  35. “This is the most fundamental truth and therefore it does not require an explanation outside of itself, and therefore there is and cannot be such an explanation.”

    Exactly at the level of my grandchildren's hakka.

    An Indian will make the same argument to you about Krishna and you will write an entire trilogy explaining why you are right and he is wrong.

    You convince yourself that your hakka is better than his hakka. Idol worshippers were no less clever than you.

    1. Come up with an alternative explanation for why you are observant or avoid stealing.
      The argument here is a logical necessity for some obligation, not something accidental.

      1. Who told you what I keep? But in the end you admit that you want a basis for morality, so what's the difference between you and Rachel, she wants experience and you want morality.

        You can be moral even if you believe in a collection of gods who created the world. The mythology of divine quarrels can be demanded just as you demand the fulfilling descriptions or as you demand the avenger and the watcher.

        1. I assumed that you at least feel obligated to moral commands (that's what “or” is for). If there is no sense of obligation in your world then it is really difficult to argue with you. In any case, perhaps you could kindly state what principles you hold.
          It has nothing to do with ”wanting” to be moral, it has to do with ”recognition” that there is an obligation to be moral. If the Torah that I would believe came from Sinai really had a mythology about a collection of gods who created the world, then I assume we would find ways to understand (“demand”) the intention in a reasonable way. But my Torah says other things and I believe them. After I believe in the factual claim that there is a G-d who commands me with a commandment, the question arises as to why keep what he says. And the answer to that is this. Those who have not experienced this kind of experience, then no.

          1. Or maybe you're just afraid of hell and wrapping it in pretty words.
            In the same Torah that says there is a mitzvah, it also says reward and punishment. We don't like to openly admit reward and punishment, so we invent something like that.
            Therefore, Rachel is more honest than you. The simple Jew who believes in hell may be working for no reason, but in the end he is more logical than anyone who deceives him like that.

  36. That's all well and good. But that's just not what she says…
    She says she's afraid to live in a world without God. It's not that she recognizes that it's the truth and therefore can't act differently, but even if she didn't believe, she would prefer to live in psychological denial

  37. (I asked this question before, but it was not answered because it was out of place)
    Intuitively, I completely reject the work of God. The work of God as a categorical command is not moral, if you look at it from the Creator's perspective. Even in the Torah, a person is obligated to honor and fear their father and mother, not to worship their father and mother. Did the one who creates life buy a slave for himself? A person who brought a child into the world and enslaved him should go to prison (or perhaps the father is even subject to a persecutory law, because he violates the "Thou shalt not steal," by stealing souls as the Scripture speaks). Why should the situation be different with the Creator?

    1. The Creator does not enslave anyone. If you want, you can disobey Him (and perhaps be punished in hell). But beyond that, the Creator created me and the world, unlike my parents, who did not even create me out of nothing.
      And beyond that, the Creator knows things that I and my father and mother do not know, and He appreciates that this “enslavement” is necessary for me and the world.

      Obedience to His commands does not belong to morality. It is an obligation, but not in the category of morality. See my article on gratitude Ontit:
      https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%91%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A8-%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%92%D7%99%D7%94

  38. The responses are interesting. Apparently, Levantal {Bennett Lapid} is still left... Let them choose. Everyone else is a writer who should not be treated with contempt. They know philosophy but have no connection to Jewish law.

  39. Is there any moral axiom that does not benefit the person who holds it or the society that holds it? After all, this is exactly the explanation of evolution - morality evolved because it had an evolutionary advantage. So any axiom turns out to be an axiom only if it meets the following criterion - is it beneficial?? Is it utilitarian? (To the person or to the society that holds it?)
    If after we helped others we did not have a good feeling - would helping others develop into a moral axiom that a person who does not understand it has something wrong with them?

    1. I didn't understand the question. Indeed, a moral value is doing good to others. And it is indeed true that the good feeling after a moral act could have been created evolutionarily. What is the question?

  40. You draw a parallel between a moral axiom that does not need explanation, and a religious axiom. And you claim that there is no place to look for utilitarianism in the axioms that we hold. And I claim that if it were not for the utilitarianism in them, they would not have developed as axioms. It can be said that if the Torah we would have received were a corrupted Torah, which harms its believers - it would not have survived and would not have received the status of an axiom among such a large group of wise and intelligent people.
    Just as evolutionary moralists claim - what is not good for man/society - not only does not receive the status of an axiom, but it also does not survive.

    1. You are mixing up two different levels of discussion here. The question of how moral feelings evolved is a factual question. The answer is evolution. The question of why moral norms are valid is a completely different one. Explaining how something evolved is unrelated to the question of whether it is valid or binding. We also have a tendency to speak slanderously, and that does not mean that there is value in it. This is the naturalistic fallacy.
      You need to think about why you think morality is valid, or proven. What will you bring up with arguments for those who do not act this way? If these are just feelings that have developed in you, it is not validity but instinct. The only answer to the question of validity is that it is a self-evident axiom. In this sense, it is completely parallel to religious faith and commitment.

  41. The religious recipe you offer is miserable. It resembles to me a person with antisocial personality disorder helping others. An antisocial person does not feel good after a good deed, and therefore moral axioms do not apply to him.

    1. I am not and have never offered a recipe for anything (maybe for cheesecake). You are looking for a recipe, probably for happiness or meaning, and I am discussing the question of what truth is. If you want to create a philosophical worldview whose validity comes from the fact that it gives you something, that is again a naturalistic fallacy and a conceptual confusion. This could be called the pragmatist fallacy.

      1. And by the way, your statement about an anti-social person who is concerned for others means that in my opinion this is the most moral person there can be. He truly acts for the benefit of others and not to gain anything for himself. See columns 120 and 122.

        1. I disagree with you. He is an unhappy person who needs treatment. This is a sick situation. From the perspective of an antisocial person who is not being treated, helping others is a clearly irrational act. There is no rational reason to do anything unless it benefits you - in the present or in the future, to you or to society.

          I know the verse “See, I have set before you today life and good… and you chose life” choosing to observe the Torah and the commandments from the most utilitarian place there is, out of the belief that these laws embody the good. This is exactly the philosophical view that the Torah asks us to adopt in relation to it.
          I have no idea what your definition of the unhappy truth is that you admire so much, but why is it perceived by you as a supreme value, even if it does not serve the good..?

          1. I have a hard time dealing with unsubstantiated statements. Perhaps because I'm such an antisocial psychopath, I expect that if I write something you'll read it and respond to it. I'll come back and clarify.
            You make three assumptions:
            1. A person only acts for reasons of benefit/pleasure/interest.
            2. A utilitarian action can be considered moral (and actually only that. Otherwise, you're a psychopath).
            3. Action for the sake of (immoral) religious values is not an action for benefit and therefore is not moral.
            To refute your claim, it's enough for me to tattoo one of these assumptions. But what can I do, and I'll show you that all three are completely unfounded. 1 is a false claim, although I understand that there will be those who will be mistaken in it. 2-3 are claims that are based on pure conceptual confusion. This is not at all a position that can or should be argued with.
            Regarding 1, I referred you to columns 120, 122, and I won't return to it here.
            Regarding 2, I asked you what the basis for your criticism of someone who is built (like me?) in a way that does not enjoy actions that benefit others. Are you claiming that he is wrong? On what basis? After all, you do what brings you pleasure and he does what brings him pleasure. You did not answer, of course.
            Regarding 3, this is simply a baseless claim. Just as actions of nature can bring pleasure/satisfaction to those who do them, so too can actions for the sake of religious values give pleasure/satisfaction to those who do them. I will reiterate that there is no need to be disrespectful, since the value in an action is derived from doing it for the sake of the value, and if done to enjoy, there is no value (moral or religious).
            I will emphasize that I do not intend to claim that enjoyment is forbidden or that one should try to get rid of the pleasure derived from good actions (moral or religious). I am only claiming that if pleasure is the reason for the action, then there is no value in this action. If there is pleasure but it is done because it is moral/or promotes religious value, then of course there is full value in this action.
            Evolution has disappeared from the discussion, and that's a good thing. This is perhaps a positive indication that you did read something of what I wrote and realized that it was completely irrelevant.
            Anyway, if you continue with statements without addressing what I write, then I'm leaving the discussion here.

            1. אדם אנטי-סוציאלי יכול להיות מוסרי וגם ליהנות מכך says:

              The person with antisocial tendencies can find pleasure and satisfaction in punishing criminals. This would be both moral and enjoyable, as the sages taught in "Who Was Born on Mars?"

              Best regards, S. Geffen

  42. Here is a counterexample to someone who was religious and retired and, in my opinion, receives more respect than she deserves just because she is one of the members:
    https://www.makorrishon.co.il/opinion/3
    66479/

    In my opinion, Racheli Rotner receives a much harsher attack because she is not one of the members; she lives in a secular society, has no interest in religious frameworks, and has no connections in religious cliques. This is precisely what makes her truly religious. Someone who does the commandments out of a commitment to God and not to social dictates.

    Maybe the rabbi could please post about the tendency to consider belonging to a group more important than the essential issue?

      1. Not exactly. A few months ago you answered a question about Bnei Akiva, which is a movement that does many important things (https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%d7%91%d7%a0%d7%99-%d7%a2%d7%a7%d7%99%d7%91%d7%90). So on the one hand you do consider a youth movement and a society. On the other hand, the principled position is more important than belonging to the society (although belonging to the society is not always contrary to the principled position). Can the rabbi make arrangements in this matter?

        1. I greatly appreciate people who act on the basis of decisions and values that they have formulated themselves and not because of their peers. But this does not contradict the fact that a youth movement that makes people act right is valuable, for two reasons: 1. Not everyone is autonomous, and the others also require care and attention. 2. Even if the movement makes people act right, it does not mean that they do so as robots or because of their peers. It is possible that the movement builds their autonomy and they act right because it is right (and not because of their peers). I am not saying that this is necessarily what always happens, I am just pointing out the lack of logical dependence and the lack of contradiction between my two statements.

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