Is the Torah a Guarantee of Proper Conduct (Column 356)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
In Columns 84 and 219 I already addressed the recurring problem in the writings of Rabbi Ratzon Arusi, who time and again pins the ills of our society and government on a detachment from the path of the Torah and from commitment to it. His method is always to point to a flaw in the conduct of the State of Israel today (and there are, alas, quite a few), and then to cite sources (relevant or not) in halakha that indicate the proper way, thereby “proving” that adherence to the Torah’s way would have solved all the maladies of the government and society, and that these are a consequence of detachment from the Torah. Of course, such words fall on receptive ears. What God-fearing Jew would refuse a reinforcement of the sanctity of our Torah and its absolute righteousness, and of the failures that arise in those who deviate from it? But intellectual honesty requires that even if the words are pleasant to the listener, they must be weighed on the scales of reason and not accepted merely because they fit one’s preconceptions.
Failure of the Democratic System (no less!)
Today I was sent another such “gem” from his beit midrash, this time about “the failure of the democratic system” (that’s the title), and mainly about the voting procedures in the Knesset and its dissolution. Here too, as I have shown in the past, there is no small amount of demagoguery, but beyond that these words also create a desecration of God’s name and habituate people to cling to slogans instead of thinking a bit. Therefore I saw it as my duty to once again set his words in their place—for the listener’s benefit.
His column isn’t long, so I shall quote it in full.
Last week members of Knesset voted on the budget, and the result was unbearable—the Knesset is dissolving. The people of Israel dwelling in Zion are supposed to prepare for elections for the fourth time in two years, on the 10th of Nisan, in the midst of a dreadful pandemic, in the midst of an economic crisis, and in the midst of a severe social rift.
But what we wish to address is the manner of the vote, within the framework of our habit of comparing the ways of our nation, which are determined according to the Torah, with the ways that are practiced by Western democratic society.
The voting procedure according to the Torah We do not speak with any intention to quarrel or, God forbid, to mock, but out of pain, out of a very strong desire that we conduct ourselves by the light of the Torah’s ways. According to our holy Torah, every single vote of a court or a council, and in every communal and judicial framework that represents the public, all are obligated to participate in the vote; according to the Torah there is no such thing as “abstain.” And matters go so far that if someone abstains he is replaced by someone else who follows him in line, according to the order. And even if a member of Knesset is ill, according to the Torah of Israel one must find him a substitute to vote in his place. All this so that every issue be discussed by the full panel and in the full forum, and so that each one will present his opinion in a reasoned and respectful manner, thereby enriching perspectives; and thus the vote will not be factional but substantive. This is the proper procedure according to the Torah of Israel: a substantive, dignified, responsible, and serious process. All the more so when we are dealing with decisions such as dissolving the Knesset for elections in the midst of such conditions.
Faulty conduct in the vote to dissolve the Knesset Let us see how the vote was conducted. Some of the voters hid in the restrooms, some hid in the parking lot, some of them popped up by surprise only at the second or third reading, because then the vote is decisive—and some of them voted against their faction! Seemingly this is a substantive vote, yet in terms of existing democracy they should have abstained from the vote and requested a replacement in their stead; they should have asked their faction to find them a substitute, since the vote was against their conscience and since today votes are faction-based. But to come and use the mandate received from the faction and vote against the faction and against the existing political and democratic rules—this is rebellion and treachery; it harms the entire political reality by which they operate. We encounter what is called a treacherous vote; we also find “voting with one’s feet,” i.e., not showing up—and this is shameful and disgraceful that such a reality exists! And as noted, we see clever ploys of not showing up for the first reading and for the second reading.
Applause for the decision to dissolve the Knesset—disgraceful behavior And after all this, suddenly, at the end of the vote, applause is heard. Even if the vote was to your liking, you ought to be in a state of dread—the people of Israel are now going to elections for the fourth time in two years, in the midst of a pandemic and an economic and social crisis beyond imagination. Now this is fuel to stoke all these crises more and more—so for this you applaud?! The Speaker of the Knesset even remarked to them, quite caustically: What are you applauding for, since as a result of dissolving the Knesset many of you will not return to the Knesset—so are you applauding that you are committing political suicide? That is to say, here we have patterns of behavior supposedly in the name of Western democracy, but they are disgraceful patterns of behavior. Can we rely and trust such processes? Is this the image of leadership? Let us recall, gentlemen, that our parliament—once I used to call the Knesset “Knesset,” today I call it “parliament,” for it is nothing but a parliament—reaches this level and, thank God, has not yet reached, but is liable to reach, the levels of parliaments in Europe, where our eyes have seen, not a stranger’s, how in the framework of votes they throw punches at one another—standing and punching one another. And this is called democracy—woe to such shame. And I repeat: these harsh words of ours do not come out of contentiousness nor out of a mental posture of “you see, we were right—the Torah way is the correct one,” but out of immense pain that our brothers and friends, who have not yet merited to be illuminated by the Torah’s light, conduct themselves as they do and do not know what a tremendous loss they suffer by not knowing the ways of the Torah. If they knew the ways of the Torah they would say: give us the ways of the Torah instead of these disgraceful ways. We pray to the Creator of the world that He pour out His spirit from on high so that our dear brothers will discover the light of the Torah and that its luminescence will return them to the good path. |
Hard as it is to believe, I can find in his words almost no statement that is logical. I will now try to show this by discussing the main points.
Is the comparison indeed between Torah law and Western democracy?
The most fundamental problem in almost everything Rabbi Arusi writes on these topics is fairness in the comparison he makes. He sets, one against the other, a governing system that functions in reality against some theory that has never been implemented. Democratic theory does not suffer from the flaws he listed, for those are the result of people and their practical shortcomings. And the practical functioning of the Torah on these matters has never been tested in the crucible of real-world practice.
If, for some reason, Rabbi Arusi wished to act fairly, he could have made the comparison on two different planes, in a way that does not suffer from the unfairness and methodological flaw of his comparison:
- On the one hand, Rabbi Arusi could have compared halakhic theory to the theory of modern law and governance (a field in which he is an expert; Rabbi Arusi holds a PhD in law). I am quite sure the results would be entirely different. I am far from certain, to say the least, that in such a comparison Western law would come out on the losing end. Already the Ran in his Derashot (Derash 11) writes that sometimes the laws of the nations are more moral and more orderly than ours (because we aim to attain the matter’s divine component and not merely social order and civic repair).
Moreover, the Ran there writes that precisely for this reason halakhic jurisprudence requires, for its practical completion and implementation, the system of the king’s law (mishpat ha-melech) to remedy these deficiencies. Therefore even an ideal government conducted according to the Torah is not meant to adhere strictly to halakha. On the contrary, the role of the king is to deviate from halakha, because it is impossible to run practical life solely by halakha. The king’s law is a derivative of common sense and does not draw from the Torah. In this it resembles the royal laws of all nations, as the Ran writes. Hence, a practical government is not supposed to differ from a secular government of gentiles.
- On the other hand, Rabbi Arusi could have compared Western-democratic rule (in Israel), which does in fact function, to a Torah-based rule that in fact functions. Admittedly such a state probably never existed, and if it did, it was in the distant past, with no detailed documentation of what exactly transpired. But if we take the events described in the Bible, we can honestly say this is not the pinnacle of morality and civic and social repair. The prophet perhaps, but the king usually not—even those kings who “did what was right in the eyes of the Lord.” Is the story of David and Bathsheba suitable as the alternative that Rabbi Arusi proposes to Western democracy? Or perhaps Ahab and Jezebel? One could say this happened precisely because the king did not obey the Torah, but that is precisely like waving the tautology that “a religious person cannot be a thief, because if he steals then he isn’t religious.” And if we are dealing in tautologies, we could just as well say that Western democracy is perfect, and the failures result from people being wicked and not behaving properly and not adhering to its directives.
Happily, however, we still have the possibility of making this practical comparison. Take the religious/ultra-Orthodox members of Knesset and tell me whether they conduct themselves properly—i.e., are not afflicted by the flaws Rabbi Arusi described? Does conduct “according to the Torah” save them from these defects, as opposed to their wicked secular colleagues (cf. “accursed evildoers”)? Of course not. But again, I am sure Rabbi Arusi will explain this is because they do not act according to the Torah. To which I reply that the secular MKs fail because they do not act according to the norms of Western democracy. Once more we are dealing with an unhelpful tautology. And what about the conduct of the Chief Rabbinate, of whose council Rabbi Arusi himself is a member? There all the members are rabbis who all cleave to Torah and halakha, and there we surely have a beacon of justice and integrity—a real light unto the nations. As is well known, the Rabbinate conducts itself with clean hands and without tricks. All votes are substantive; there are no intrigues, no failures or defects. Joking aside, everyone understands that its conduct is far worse than that of the Knesset: no transparency, no clean hands, monopolistic heavy-handedness, no proper procedures, and more and more—all in the name of the Torah by its standard-bearers. There you have a practice-to-practice comparison; I leave you to draw the conclusion.
And again one could say it is only because they deviate from the Torah’s path. To which I reply once more that the failures in democracy stem from the deviation of wicked people from the proper norms therein. Rabbi Arusi must decide: is he focusing on theory or on practice? On the Torah or on the people who implement it? One cannot, tendentiously, take theory on one side of the comparison and practice on the other, just so the comparison will yield the result one desires.
For some reason, however, Rabbi Arusi chose to make neither of these fair comparisons, but rather to make an unfair comparison between a Torah-halakhic theory and Western-democratic practice. In this way I can likewise show the superiority of secularism over religiosity, for Rabbis Moti Elon, Berland, the rabbi from Tzfat, and a few other rabbis sexually harassed youths and women, despite being revered rabbis; whereas secular theory views sexual harassment most negatively. It (the theory) is pure and clean as snow. There you have an unfair comparison between A’s practice and B’s theory. With this you won’t get far. It is hard for me to believe Rabbi Arusi did not notice the happy fact that theories are almost always perfect, and the less happy fact that in practice, when people are involved and not theories, there are usually quite a few problems and failures.
An example from The Kuzari
In The Kuzari, Essay I (sec. 113), the Ḥaver denounces the conduct of the nations as violent and forceful—“contempt, suffering, and killing”—and as characterized by the boasting and aggressiveness of kings, and more. By contrast, we Jews are poor, humble, and modest.
The Khazar king answers him:
114. The Khazar said: That would be so if your submission were voluntary, but it is coerced; and when you find the power, you will kill.
The Khazar explains to the Ḥaver that he is making a comparison between Jewish theory and the practice of the nations. Our theory advocates humility, peace, and proper treatment of every person, but this has never faced a real test, since we have not had our own government and power, and therefore we had no option to wield them against others. It is very easy to sit in an armchair and disseminate perfect opinions and principles. The question is what will happen when this faces a practical test.
And to this the Ḥaver honestly replies:
115. The Ḥaver said: You have found the place of my disgrace, King of the Khazars. It is so: had most of us accepted poverty as submission to God and on account of His Torah, the divine matter would not have left us for such a long time…
Indeed, an unfair comparison. But I think a logical error is not the disgrace here. The disgrace is apparently the demagoguery, for the Ḥaver tried to present Judaism as superior to the nations by virtue of an unfair comparison that does not withstand the test of facts. Remind you of anything?…
Beyond this fundamental problem, there are also some local problems in Rabbi Arusi’s words, and here I will address the two main ones. As will be seen immediately, these points also connect to his fundamental flaw.
Is the decision to dissolve the Knesset disgraceful?
Contrary to his claim, the vote to dissolve the Knesset did not have disgraceful results. On the contrary, the decision to dissolve the Knesset is the necessary outcome in our situation, in which there is no governability and no way to run the state properly. The voters did not enable the elected officials to build a reasonable coalition, and the results of the previous elections dictated most of the failures in the current situation. The reason there are four rounds in two years is the distribution of voters’ ballots that did not yield a decision, not any substantive defect in democracy. For this reason I also see no flaw in the applause in the plenum when the decision to dissolve the Knesset passed. That is the appropriate reaction to a major repair effected by that decision. The continued tenure of a government and Knesset that do not function is the failure—not going to elections.
Moreover, our elected officials are indeed not great luminaries, neither intellectually nor morally, and they act in disgraceful ways in various aspects. But this has not the slightest connection to the democratic system. It is the result of the individuals operating on the ground. Incidentally, the kings who ruled over us in the past did not look any better—far from it. The intrigues of our present-day rabbis do not seem to me essentially different from the intrigues of our secular rulers. Nor are the actions of our rabbis generally more proper and wiser than those of our rulers. In short, human nature is all of one mold.
Rabbi Arusi is right that in a regime of “our holy Torah” there is no problem of four elections in a year, simply because they do not hold elections there. We’re talking about a king born into the right family (of the House of David). If one wishes to replace the king, it is done in a far more enlightened and elegant fashion than in our failing democracy: one simply rebels against him and/or assassinates him. Indeed, not a bad system—but for some reason I nevertheless find within myself a slight preference for a situation of four elections in two years. Rabbi Arusi prays that our erring brothers will discover the Torah’s luminescence and replace their loathsome democracy with the Torah system. I must say that at least on this plane I very much prefer the failing democratic system, despite all its limitations and flaws. And thus I find myself praying that our “correct” brothers will not happen to discover the Torah and its virtues and decide to become our erring brothers and forgo democracy. May the Merciful save us from such a thought.
Abstention in voting
Rabbi Arusi asserts that according to our holy Torah there is no such thing as abstaining in a vote, not in a court and not in any judicial or governmental body. First, I do not see why this is an advantage. He somehow assumes that abstention is a terrible defect, whereas in my view it is a reasonable mode of conduct for one who has no position on the matter. Coalition discipline appears to Rabbi Arusi as the footsteps of the Messiah—as if it were one of the Ten Commandments and a foundation of universal morality—whereas to me it looks like the government’s coercion over the parliament, freezing the status of the members of Knesset and neutralizing the Knesset from its main role. Thus the government forces the Knesset to say “amen” to all its decisions (in Column 300 I explained that in our country there are in fact two branches of government, not three; the legislative branch does not exist). And in the opposition it neutralizes the positions of rank-and-file MKs relative to the party leader (who is sometimes not elected in primaries at all). But for Rabbi Arusi, everything that happens here is a failure, through and through. He turns light into darkness and darkness into light—and he does so in the name of “our holy Torah.” I am astonished!
As a rationale for his peculiar position, he brings the argument that in elections we vote for party lists and not for specific individuals. But not for nothing are the people chosen to serve in the Knesset within the framework of the parties (in the party center or in primaries, each party according to its system). Otherwise there would be no need for members of Knesset at all. Each party (who is the party if not the members? the party center?) would decide its stance on the matter at hand and we would only need to count parties, not people. We could simply shut down the Knesset. This is a ridiculous system—morally and logically—but in Rabbi Arusi’s eyes it is the ideal model, and any deviation from it is a disgrace and a failure. Turning light into darkness and darkness into light—did I already say that?
But even on the merits: whence did he derive his conclusion that according to “the holy Torah” one cannot abstain in votes, and that if someone says he does not know he is replaced? Only from his own overactive imagination. In Choshen Mishpat §18:1 it is written that if a judge says “I do not know,” two more judges are added. That is, one does not appoint a judge in his place; rather, two more judges are added to the panel to reach a decision by three. The reason is explained by the commentaries there (see the Sema, sk. 3, and more): the decision must be reached by three judges. In other words, this is not a moral principle but a rule concerning the number of judges. How does he infer from here that abstention by an MK is a moral failure? And what does this have to do with the argument he raises that in elections we vote for a faction and not for a person? Even if that argument were logical (it decidedly is not), what is the connection between it and the rule about a judge who says “I do not know”?
And altogether, what alternative does he propose? Does Rabbi Arusi expect that a member of Knesset who truly has no clear position should nevertheless vote? Or should we replace him, for this specific vote, with another person? How will we choose him? Will the party leader pick someone suitable for this specific vote? Is that a serious proposal? To say that these are “astonishing” words would be the understatement of the century. Or perhaps Rabbi Arusi expects, as we saw earlier, that decisions will not be made at all by the members’ votes but rather by the weight of the faction’s collective position—period—without votes? Beyond the fact that this is nonsense on both the moral and practical levels, does he think this alternative fits the laws of the Torah? Where did he find this mechanism in the Shulchan Aruch?
And beyond all this, how does he expand this rule, said with regard to a judge in a court, to votes in governmental institutions? Did he read this by skipping letters in the Torah, or between the lines of the Talmud? And even if halakha indeed stated this explicitly, in Choshen Mishpat §17:22 it is written that a community can accept invalid witnesses—head-on against Torah law. Can it not establish that abstention is also permitted in votes? Rabbenu Tam, for example, holds that decisions in a community must be accepted unanimously (we do not follow the majority). That is, the rules for court votes do not necessarily apply to votes in communal bodies. Is the impossibility of abstaining a mandatory rule that cannot be stipulated otherwise even in communal institutions? Many poskim wrote that in communal institutions decisions can be made without the minority’s presence. Yet when one voter abstains, Rabbi Arusi claims the decision cannot be made.
For the difference between majority rule in court and majority in communal enactments, see the explanation in Columns 66, 69, and 79. I showed there that these are two entirely different realms that do not intersect. Needless to say, on this plane a vote in the Knesset is not similar to a vote in a court (does Rabbi Arusi propose to disqualify women from serving in the Knesset because they are disqualified from judging?! And perhaps, by his logic, there should be no votes or deliberations at night?), but rather to a vote in communal institutions.
And beyond all that, even if we were to find that in communal enactments there is an absolute rule forbidding abstention, that rule itself emerged from the sages’ common sense and not from a halakhic source (as with all rules of communal governance). If so, Rabbi Arusi is in fact criticizing the democratic system on the basis of common sense and not on the basis of the Torah. One can of course argue about what common sense dictates, but in any case there is certainly no contrast here between democracy and the Torah’s system. In general, in Column 164 I showed that communal enactments are not part of halakha and that halakha has nothing to say about them. The presence of these topics in the Shulchan Aruch is the unfortunate result of a historical accident, nothing more—certainly nothing that pertains to Torah jurisprudence, and still less to “our holy Torah.”
And here we return to Rabbi Arusi’s fundamental flaw. We saw that his main failure is to compare democratic practice with Torah theory. We now see that the “theory” in question is not a Torah theory at all but simply common sense (in his view). And thus the circle closes. Note the logic of the move:
- Rabbi Arusi claims: Our holy Torah says one must not abstain in a vote.
- I ask him: How do you know?
- He answers: Because that is what common sense dictates.
- I reply: Then the democratic system dictates it as well.
- And he of course asks: How do you know?
- And I answer without blinking: Because that is what common sense dictates.
- So he asks: But in practice this does not happen?
- And I ask: And in the Torah world does it happen in practice? It does not happen there because there is no regime that actually operates on the Torah system.
- goto 1.
And at the margins of the discussion I wonder: In the municipalities of Bnei Brak, Beitar Illit, Kiryat Sefer, and the like—there is no possibility of abstaining in votes? Needless to say they conduct themselves in the most enlightened and proper fashion, in full adherence to “our holy Torah” in every aspect. So surely one cannot abstain there either, right? It would be worthwhile to inform them what “our holy Torah” says on this matter.
It is hard to believe these words came from the pen of a learned person, a rabbi in Israel, a PhD in law, and a member of the Council of the Chief Rabbinate (actually, it is not that hard to believe). And it is even harder to believe that someone bothers to print these words and read or listen to them seriously. And so I have written what seems correct in my humble opinion.
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On what basis do you say that the king's role is to deviate from the law? After all, if you say that “because it is impossible to lead a practical life according to the law” – I could say that about any private person.
He means by the claim that it is impossible to run a company according to Jewish law in its entirety. Search here on the Fort website for more information. He does not mean that it is impossible to live as a Torah-observant Jew.
So what do you actually mean by the prayer “Our judges have answered us first” to a democratic state with a Sanhedrin that has the authority to demand Torah justice in a way that makes unnecessary criticisms like that of Nadav Shnerb and the like? What do you think of the book “Medina Ka Halacha” by Rabbi Ido Pechter?
Thanks for the comment
Ido Rechnits is not a Pechter (not a Z”z fight)
I don't know the book.
Our judges' response, as before, is to restore the original system: King's law + Halacha law. Overall, I assume that the Halacha law will not be very different from the law in use today.
Thank you very much for the important clarification!
I did mean Rabbi Ido Rechnitz.
Rabbi, you wrote – Overall, I assume that the halakhic law will not be very different from the law in use today.
Like that?
Perhaps you mean the legal methods, but essentially the basic values are different, so it is clear that the laws are very different
Isn’t that right?
First, the values are not very different. Second, most parts of the law are not related to values but to common sense and reasonable management of life. When Halacha governs life here, no one will be careful to impose a punishment only if there was a warning and a warning was received. It is impossible to run a society and a country like this. This way, neither will women's testimony be disallowed nor will self-incrimination, nor will they exonerate a harmer in a gramma, and so on and so forth. The first and the last have already insisted on this. This is not something new from me.
Rabbi Mickey, I have a small problem. In your article on the State of Halacha, you wrote a harsh criticism of Rabbi Ratzon Arusi. Rabbi Arusi responded to you in an entire shiur where he referred to the sources and explained himself with good taste and knowledge and completely rejected your words, and to this day I have not seen any substantive response from you on the subject. His response appears in your post on the State of Halacha at the end of the comments as a video clip… ayy”sh.
Let him be respectful and write a comment on the site and then I will read and respond.
https://youtu.be/GtKxK5-mNzo?t=1653
“My response is this lesson. Torah study! Torah study! We are not people of posts. Not people of websites. We are people who study Torah! In the settlement of the mind, I wrote a book and predicted” … “ Links, tweets, everything… This is the keyboard, gentlemen, today. Yes, yes, just not negotiations”. The truth is that there is something honest and admirable in the fact that he reads the criticism without a hitch (Ahabel is also known as Amnon Yitzhak specializes in this honesty). But from the relatively little I sampled, I found nothing. Although in the place where I am, stepping on such nonsense feels like detailing at length evidence for the claim that Achashverosh did not murder Arlozorov.
It's a shame you didn't bother to listen.
For example, he testifies to himself that in his words he agrees that sometimes there is no choice and one must use pro-state.
But Rabbi Michael Avraham attacked him for his opposition to the institution of “ad medina” – in other words, he attacked him for a position
that he does not hold.
If this is true – and you can check it – would you claim that this is nonsense?
Come on, really... this is not his approach to "corresponding"; neither his nor that of other rabbis... but he certainly responded and deserves to be listened to for a moment and respond.
It is not customary for a man like him to correspond on websites. You can see the response in the uploaded video.
I agree with the majority
But David's mention should be with Uriah, since that is what is related to the national aspect. His personal sin with Batsheva is less relevant.
By the way, specifically regarding his local rule and his successes in the Torah, there are probably many places to check this, from the presidents' governments, Reish Galuta, control of the Sephardic communities, and so on and so forth. I don't know how relevant it really is to check, but bringing an example from the Haredi conduct is a bit of demagogy
This is the intention.
The example of Haredi and religious behavior in general is an excellent example. It proves that the issue is not the system but the people.
There is no hint in the Torah about government votes
There is opposition in the Torah to decisions that are not good. You shall not be after the rabbis, for evil
In the Torah, it is not the foolish people who choose their leaders, but Moses our Lord. And Moses chose men of war out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people - commanders of thousands, commanders of hundreds, commanders of fifties, and commanders of tens.
On the 17th of Tevet 5
Here is a greeting,
From where you came from – the selection of the leaders of the thousands, etc. by Moses – it is proven that Moses asked the people's opinion regarding the appointment of their leaders and judges, saying to them: ‘Bring for you wise and intelligent men and known in your tribes, and I will put them at your head’.
In the test of ‘wise and intelligent’ the decisive factor was probably the ’examination’ they passed under Moses, but apart from wisdom – Leaders also needed to be those whom the public would trust, and for this reason a prophet like Moses also needed to “reign with the public.”
The elders also advised Rehoboam to consider the opinion of the people, telling him: “If today you will be a servant to this people, and they will serve and obey you and speak good things to them, then they will be your servants forever” (1 Kings 12).
A leader should be one who leads the people and is not dragged along, but one of the main characteristics of a king is “not to exalt his heart above his brothers,” and it is not for nothing that he is called “king” because he knows how to reign over the people and lead them wisely and wisely on the right path.
With greetings, Yaron Fishel Ordner
In the 15th of Tevet P.A.
I am not concerned with the issue of a judge's 'refraining from discussing'. It seems to me that there is room for a distinction between a judge who says 'I don't know' and a MK who refrains, because the role of a judge is to clarify and announce the law that already exists in the Torah, and if he is unable to clarify the law in a particular situation, then he is, with regard to this law, as someone who is not 'reasonable and prudent' and cannot discuss it.
On the other hand, a decision of the Knesset or the government does not seek to clarify the law, but to create it. An MK or minister who refrains is essentially saying that he is not sure whether the section that they are seeking to pass as a law or as a resolution should be renewed. And whoever abstains because he is unsure whether to say ‘yes’, is as if he is saying ‘no’ for the time being, and those who abstain should be counted as voting ‘against’. After all, he too does not agree to renew the decision.
With greetings, Shraga Faivish Halevi Konktator
This is exactly the difference that I explained in the above columns. 62, 69, 79
If a judge says "I don't know" and is replaced by others, then we find situations in which the entire court decides to withdraw from the case. For example, the court can recommend a compromise, as long as it does not know where the case is headed.
We also find situations in which the courts consciously decided to avoid dealing with them. For example, during the time of Rabbi Shimon ben Shetach, they stopped discussing property cases out of the feeling that "the wise are not wise", and forty years before the destruction of the Second Temple, the Sanhedrin was expelled from the Gazit Chamber so as not to discuss personal cases because "the murderers have multiplied".
Likewise, there are situations where, due to insufficient evidence, the court refrains from deciding and orders ‘all the more so, if expert judges are in a situation where they feel insecure about deciding – all the more so should members of the Knesset or the government be careful not to make rash decisions before they have investigated the issue as thoroughly as possible. It would be useful to have permanent experts and professionals who would form an ‘advisory committee’ for each of the Knesset committees.
Best regards, Sh”P
Another difference between courts where abstention is a problem and the Knesset and the government is that the decisions of these bodies do not require a minimum quorum. Those who abstain are not counted, and are considered to have not been present in the courtroom.
I once saw a cartoon about a committee chairman who came to visit an MK who was ill, and he informed the patient that the committee had decided to wish him a full recovery, by a majority of three votes in favor, two against, and 20 abstentions 🙂
With greetings, ‘with one voice’, Mr.
This is the explanation I wrote in this column: In the case of the B'D, adding people is done to reach a quorum of three judges and not for ethical reasons, and this has no place in Knesset votes.
On the 2nd of Tevet 2, the strict adherence to Torah law, which, as the court ruled in Rehovot, gives legal validity to political agreements (which Rabbi Arousi emphasized in the past), would have saved us from the political crisis in the first place.
If the Torah court had the authority to supervise the actions of government authorities that are carried out in accordance with the Torah, the court would not have had to wait until they turned to it, but would have demanded that they submit a biennial budget and establish a joint committee to appoint senior officials and a reconciliation committee, etc.,
and a politician who refused the court's orders would have been punished. He would be stretched on the pillar to be flogged with a whip for rebellion, as the Torah requires of those who refuse to go to court 🙂
With blessings, Ben-Zion Yochanan Korinaldi-Radetzky,
in charge of the ‘instruments of the judges– shofar, stick and strap’
In the 1980s, the Bnei Yaakov group gathered in 1981.
And perhaps this crisis will open a door to hope. What has happened so far is that right-wing and traditional people, who rightly or wrongly are fed up with Benjamin Netanyahu's rule, have joined a party whose leaders are clearly leftists (Lapid and Gantz, etc.) or a party that is clearly right-wing anti-Haredi (Yisrael Beiteinu).
Now an alternative has arisen for Benjamin Netanyahu, headed by leaders who are no less right-wing than him and much more traditional than him. And who have "reputations" and extensive experience in diverse government work. From now on, the chance has greatly increased that the traditionalists and the Armenians who have gone from hating Bibi to the leftist and anti-Israeli parties will return home to the national and traditional camp, and their strength will grow. If, after the elections, the right-wing parties Likud, New Hope, and Yamina join hands, we will eventually have a more national and more traditional government.
With best wishes, Yaron Fishel Corinaldi
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… Shimenim and traditional, who passed…
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… We will deserve more government…
In the Good Law of Tevet P'A
It is worth noting that not only Torah law does not permit a judge to refrain.. In the courts, a judge's refraining from deciding something is considered undesirable,
The possibility given by Jewish law to replace judges who are not willing to decide with other judges who will decide – is considered undesirable, because then the decision will be made by judges who have not heard the arguments and evidence themselves and are less knowledgeable about the matter.
The entry of a new judge into the hearing, who naturally needs time to study the issue, even if it does not lead to a defect in the correctness of his decision – will cause the hearing to be prolonged, which could lead to ’torture of the law’
Best regards, Yaron Fishel Ordner
On the issue of avoiding avoidance, the norms required of judges have not been applied to elected officials, who are allowed to avoid them.
Recently, the trend has reached the legal profession to demand from elected officials the norms required of judges, and thus they want to apply to elected officials also the prohibition of ‘bribery’ – disqualifications from hearing the case of someone who gave the decision-maker ‘sympathetic coverage’.
This norm of ‘prohibition of bribery’ , which state law is less comprehensive in its adoption regarding judges – is now being attempted to be made binding on elected officials…
On the 17th of September, 2017, I believe that if the affairs of the Knesset were conducted according to the Torah, most Knesset members would have to refrain from discussing issues in which they are not experts and transfer the discussion of each issue to a council of experts and professionals, who would submit an opinion (or a variety of opinions that disagree with each other). Only after reading the opinions and hearing the various experts would they sit down and decide.
Best regards, Yaron Fishel Ordner
Even Mordechai instructs Esther that she must not refrain. She must not remain silent, but must take a stand and demand that the king revoke the decree!
Even Mordechai is not content with refraining from bowing in a passive manner of ‘not rising or trembling’, but rather openly states that he does not bow because he is a Jew!
Even Harbonah is remembered for good, for not refraining, but expressing his opinion clearly against Haman, and therefore neither will we refrain from mentioning him for praise.
And we do not refrain, but respond and celebrate, and in pleasant song, the wonders and miracles.
With greetings, Pedatzur Fish”l Peri-Gan
According to Rabbi Arusi and the Rambamists, what is written in the halakha is the moral. In any case, the words of the rabbi are rejected, as are all other interpretations regarding the conduct of the community, etc. Because if this is the moral way to conduct a court of law, then it is probably the most correct way for the Knesset as well.
But of course, the lack of distinction between theory and practice is the root of the problem.
I don't know Rabbi Arousi, but it seems that he made a fairly substantive claim - Torah law does not allow for abstention from voting - and you, you devoted a few words to responding substantively to this claim, and that's it. Apart from that, everything you wrote is complete nonsense, and is irrelevant. And did he write anything about the fact that the Knesset is supposed to be, in all its details and laws, a court of Torah? All he wrote was that the democratic system of this style allows for abstention and Torah law does not allow for it or requires a substitute (according to him), and it seemed intuitive to him that it is immoral to abstain and Torah law, in his understanding, is just.
I hope this attitude stems from mere tendency and not from stupidity or lack of understanding.
What theory does the rabbi mean by “secular theory”? It seems that Rabbi Arusi is mainly dividing between behavior that is based on the Torah, which comes from an eternal source, and behavior that grows out of a person’s basic assumptions, and he shows that there is a consequence, that when it is not based on solid foundations then the result etc. In addition, there is apparently a big difference between “refraining” in the Knesset and a judge who does not know the ruling, although in practice both do not affect the ruling, but in terms of approach, it is a complete reversal, when a member of Knesset abstains, it comes in many cases from evasion for political reasons, while a judge who rules “I do not know” is after a thorough study of the issue, so you cannot learn from this the moral aspect of “refraining” in the Knesset
Did you read my words? Apparently not. The halakha on these issues comes from the beliefs of man just like the democratic system.
And as for the fact that politicians behave in a political manner, that is truly disgraceful. I have nothing to say.
And by the way, there is a discussion in halakha about a judge saying “I don't know” as an exercise.
Has the rabbi tried to read Rabbi Arousi's books or is he impressed by him through all sorts of links that people send him?
Judging by the reference to other Plugthas, option B is the correct one, if not worse.
As an example, we have a huge amount of material, recorded and typed, from the thought of Rabbi Shager Zetzel. From what I have heard so far from Rabbi Michai (and that is quite a bit), I could mistakenly think that Rabbi Shager wrote only one closed sentence in his entire life about "dancing in the circle of differences". If one is impressed by Rabbi Michai's words, it is difficult to even understand whether this is a sentence whose subject is sociology or statistics. I can only wish that Rabbi Michai will treat his Plugthas with more decency.
Indeed, difficult scenes.
What bothered me the most was this:
“All this so that every issue will be discussed by the full composition and in the full forum and that everyone will voice their opinion in a reasoned and respectful manner so that there will be a discussion of opinions, and thus the vote will not be factional but substantive.”
It goes along with his claim later that coalition discipline must not be violated.
If coalition discipline is maintained, there is no meaning to the vote, certainly not to the ”discussion of opinions”.
“It is hard to believe that these words came from the pen of a man who knows the book, a rabbi in Israel, a doctor of law and a member of the Chief Rabbinate Council (actually it is not that hard to believe). And it is even harder to believe that anyone would bother to print these things and read or listen to them seriously. And I wrote the answer.”
And above all it is hard to believe that anyone would bother to write them a reasoned and detailed answer that is even longer than the words themselves. And I wrote the answer.
You usually treat things that others write in a more matter-of-fact and serious manner (for example, in the columns where you referred to the words of that Reform Rabbi).
If you treated his words with respect, you would probably also understand them better, and not push things on him.
I will just say in advance that his words are based on the knowledge of a Mishnah in the Sanhedrin that says that in contrast to a situation where two support and one oppose, where there is a ruling, in a situation where one does not know - there is no ruling and the judges will add. And seemingly this is puzzling - after all, even if he opposed the ruling, it would have remained? But from this we can learn a principle that was clear to the sages of the Shavra - that abstaining is like abstaining from a dalit.
He did not claim that in practice it should be determined that it would be forbidden to abstain in the Knesset, or in the Beit Ha-Yid, and he did not say that it was a moral fallacy, you pushed that on him. He claimed that according to halakha, the ruling is made on the basis of a discussion and decision of all those present. It is true that the need to replace abstainers stems from the fact that the decision must be made by 3 or some other number, but the definition that there must be a certain number of opinion-holders is related to the fact that according to the Torah, a substantive discussion is needed - that 3 people actually express an opinion on the subject under discussion, because according to the Torah, an abstainer is like a man of dalitah and not an opinion that must be counted. Therefore, even if 2 support and one says I don't know, the judges will be added,
In other words, this argument can be put this way: If we pay a salary to 120 Knesset members because it is important to us that decisions are made on the basis of a large number of people, each of whom thinks and decides in his own opinion, it is reasonable to expect them to take every issue seriously and try to decide on it. Perhaps in practice it is impractical to replace, but since abstention or absence becomes a routine matter, there is a reason for the flaw here.
The idea that dayans need to be added because of something technical is incorrect, because ostensibly if the number of dayans is the decree of Scripture, then why not say that the dayan who says he doesn't know is also counted? But the sages understood that when 3 judges are needed, they mean 3 people with an opinion and not abstaining.
Incidentally, from a practical point of view, it is not such a bad idea to define a certain number of MKs as a minimum for passing a law, so that a situation does not arise where Basic Laws are passed with 32 MKs.
2. He also did not claim that factional discipline is the time of the Messiah, again you are pushing him. On the contrary, he wrote that today it is accepted to choose factions and not individuals, and therefore there is an obligation to the faction and to vote against the faction's position is to vote against what brought you to the Knesset. Therefore, whoever comes and votes against the faction's position is not doing an act of conscience and is acting according to the ideal of the Torah described earlier, but is doing a bad thing because he is more committed to the faction than to his conscience, because the citizens sent the faction to the Knesset and not him as a private person.
All in all, logical things that can of course be disputed, but it is worth addressing the content in a matter-of-fact manner and not mocking them.
Most of what you wrote is exactly what I understood from his words. Other parts are not true. But it's all nonsense, and I explained well in the column why. Even if I wanted to laugh, I couldn't. He does it himself perfectly well. If you bothered to think and didn't just make jokes, you would understand on your own.
Shalom, Your Honor
Although the Torah is not a guarantee of proper behavior as an exclusive reason, I actually liked your approach that God expects us to behave morally and properly. If we understand this and fulfill His expectations, we should see a whole, moral people here, which is not the case in other nations where there is a division between those who believe in morality and those who do not.
It follows, then, that the people of Israel, who are faithful to God and His expectations, are indeed supposed to be more moral than other nations, right?
I didn't understand the argument. God expects the entire world to be moral, and if the world meets His expectations, it will be moral. What does this tautology do for you? The theory is perfect, and if we live by the theory, we will be perfect.
True, I will clarify the claim: not necessarily Jews, but those who believe in it will necessarily be more moral than those who do not believe in it.
Also not true. Those who believe in it who fulfill its expectations will be completely moral, just like atheists who live under the illusion that there is an atheistic morality and act according to it. You fail in the same fallacy as Rabbi Arusi, comparing theory to practice.
Not accurate. Atheists are divided into two: those who believe in atheistic morality and those who do not, the truth is that there is no atheistic morality and therefore in the end only those who are immoral will remain because the end of the truth will be revealed. Believers are divided into two: those who believe that God expects us to be moral and those who do not. The truth is that God expects us to be moral and the end of the truth will be revealed, therefore all believers will be moral.
My argument deals with theory, please attack it in this area. In practice it is difficult to attack it, because it claims a future practice that cannot yet be refuted!
Your argument doesn't touch on theory even from a mile away. Only practice. It's basically a theory about what practice will be like (which is the worst of course): the truth will eventually be revealed. Good luck with the predictions.
“In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice – there is”.
The end of truth to be revealed is a logical argument as follows:
It takes time to clarify things with the mind and during the clarification we make mistakes. That is why I am optimistic that the truth will be revealed and not because I am a prophet.
In the 21st of Tevet 2017
Nadav – Shalom Rav,
Faith is one of the factors that causes a person to behave more morally. A person who believes that he is responsible before God for his actions – is likely to be more careful.
I saw in the memoirs of a Jew from Rasoin that the Chafetz Chaim traveled with a Gentile cartman.. When the Chafetz Chaim saw that the cartman did not cross himself in front of the statue of the crucified – the Chafetz Chaim took out his wallet, paid the cartman his wages and left the cart,, for a person who does not fear his God - who knows what he is capable of. And indeed the Nazis and Communists who stripped them of faith – also kicked morality.
But he who has Torah, gains an additional blessing. At every step he is accompanied by moral and halakhic instructions in the field of ‘between man and his fellow man’. He is under the influence of prophets, righteous and devout, Tannaim and Amoraim and the sages of the generations, whose whole being was caution in the honor and property of others.
In the public sphere, the advantage of faith and Torah is perhaps less pronounced, because in a world of power-hungry and cunning – a person can ‘forget about himself and think that the end justifies the means, but here too there is hope that the more the demand for leaders to behave appropriately – increases ‘from below’ the greater their motivation to do so will be.’
With best wishes, Yaron Tzemach Fish”l-Plankton
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… In the memoirs of the Jews of Maradin, who desired to live…
On the 24th of Tevet 5771
Naturally, the influence of the Torah on proper behavior is more noticeable on the individual and on the community. A person who has a God, who lives in the constant awareness that he is responsible before God for all his actions, is more careful in his actions lest a mistake occur under his hand.
In addition, faith contributes to Torah behavior. When a person is accustomed to examining every step in life according to the halachic and moral instructions of righteous and wise prophets, his threshold of moral sensitivity rises.
The next stage in which moral correction will be seen is the community, whose individuals aspire to a proper, moral, and upright life, and therefore they will ensure that their community is led by wise and intelligent people, people of truth who fear God and hate greed.
The bigger problem is in the political sphere, where those who excel in cunning and force often succeed, and the more honest a person is, the harder it will be for him to survive in the political jungle.
But here too, as the world is reformed from below, and as more people follow Torah and morality, the public demand for decent and honest leadership will grow.
The path to reforming the world according to Torah and morality is neither easy nor quick, but the more we persist in seeking what is right and good in our private lives, the closer we will be to the blessed influence in the public sphere as well.
With best wishes, Yaron Tzemach Fish-Plankton
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… whose individuals strive for a proper and moral life, and therefore wish their community to be led by…