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The meaning of majority: Does the majority decide? (Tur 66)

With God’s help

In recent days, a turbulent election campaign has been underway in France. Marine Le Pen is threatening to win the presidency, and reporters and commentators are united in saying that this is an apocalypse (sometimes it seems as if it is something like the Nazis coming to power in 1933). Because of the inherent left-wing bias of journalists, I do not have the slightest faith in the biased descriptions as if it is a racist monster. See similar descriptions here of Miri Regev, Bibi, Lieberman, Smotrich, or indeed of the image of the State of Israel in the general press, and you will understand what such journalistic descriptions mean and how acceptable they are. In some cases, these are false and biased descriptions based on political bias, but in my opinion, in most cases, it is simply stupidity and a lack of understanding of concepts (such as racism, etc.). But that is not what I wanted to deal with here.

Among other things, the question being asked these days is whether the elections in France will once again demonstrate the public's rebellion against the establishment (a dirty word used by journalists who are the establishment, the real meaning of which is: a rebellion against their own left-liberal indoctrination), like Brexit in Britain, the election of Trump in the US, and more. Even those who ask this question usually assume that the public is wrong and that its decisions will bring us a humanitarian and political disaster, and the question is only whether the public will be wrong again in France as well.

To replace the people

It is hard not to recall the slur attributed to Yitzhak Ben-Aharon after he saw the results of the 1977 elections, the upheaval that brought the Likud to power, that the people were wrong and that the people should be replaced. We are used to mocking such a statement as if it were arrogant and undemocratic, but there is room to examine whether this is indeed the case. Can't the public make mistakes? That is certainly possible. Alternatively, isn't it likely that the majority is wrong? In other words, is a majority inherently closer to the truth than a minority? Here too, the answer is not trivial.

Regarding the above statement by Yitzhak Ben Aharon, a man named Uri Yizhar from Sade Resources wrote scathing comments in response to the newspaper The country:

In an article that reviewed the life of Yitzhak Ben-Aharon, it was stated that following the Labor Movement's loss to Likud in the 1977 elections, he said: "If this is the will of the people, then the people must be replaced."

There was no such thing as a "was" or "was not created," and neither was there any "was." On Israeli television on the night of the revolution, Ben-Aharon said, after hearing the results of the television sample, that if this is the decision of the people, then he is not prepared to respect it. This segment was rebroadcast on the day of Ben-Aharon's death, May 19, 2006, on Channel One's "Yoman" program.

There is a fundamental difference between the statement that the people must be "replaced" and what Ben-Aharon actually said. In a democratic regime, there is an obligation to accept the people's decision in elections, but there is no obligation to respect it.[1]

In other words, the public can make mistakes, but there is a democratic obligation to respect its decisions even if it is wrong.

The meaning of most

In the next two columns, I will attempt to address these questions through the words of Uri Yizhar, on two levels: 1. Does the majority rule? I will discuss here the meaning of democratic elections and majority rule. I will expand and clarify further the obligation to respect the decision of the majority. 2. Is the majority right? Here I will examine the implicit assumption in his words that following the majority is not necessarily the best way to reach the truth or the most correct decision. That is, that the majority can be wrong.

The rule of the philosophers

Plato already proposed handing over the government of the state to philosophers, that is, to wise people. On the surface, this is a very logical proposal, since we all want the best and wisest decisions to be made. On the surface, the best way to make a correct and logical decision is to hand over the decision to wise people.[2] A milder version of this proposal is to weight each person's finger according to their intelligence. That is, when a public vote is held (such as a Knesset election), each finger would be equal according to the IQ of its owner. Thus, whoever is more intelligent would have more influence on the decision, which would supposedly improve the quality of society's decisions.

One can, of course, doubt our ability to measure relevant wisdom, and I will address this below. But at least on a principled level, the question remains. Assuming that it is indeed possible to measure relevant wisdom and assign a weight to each voter according to his wisdom, is Plato's proposal (or my softened version) indeed a good proposal and worthy of acceptance or not?

Two common answers

Two objections are usually raised to this outrageous proposal. One is that we have no way of determining who is wise in this regard. What is the wisdom required to vote in elections, and how can it be measured? How can one even determine wisdom objectively? Education is certainly no guarantee of wisdom (it has already been said that there is such infantile nonsense that you can only hear from academics). But this is only a technical problem, since it is essentially assumed here that if there were indeed a way to define such wisdom, the Platonic proposal would be correct and appropriate.

The second objection is that if we give the decision to the wise, they will use this authority for their own interests. In other words, the fact that someone is wise does not mean that he thinks about us all. We are concerned that he will use his wisdom for his own interests and therefore will not necessarily make the right decisions for us all. Here too, it is a technical problem. This objection also essentially assumes that in principle the Platonic proposal is good, but there is a concern that it will not succeed. If we were to hand the decision over to an intelligent (disinterested) computer program, it could be perfect.

Both of these objections implicitly assume that Plato's proposal is correct. Indeed, the rule of philosophers is the right and just rule, but there are technical problems in implementing this idea.

The mistake in the question

But another look shows that there is actually a mistake in raising the Platonic question or proposal. The assumption behind this proposal is that we are looking for a mechanism that will give us the most correct decisions. But this is itself a mistake, and therefore the Platonic proposal should be rejected out of hand. Even if we find a mechanism to measure wisdom, and even if we neutralize the interests (create perfect software), it is still not right to let philosophers rule and make decisions for us all.

The reason for this is that the assumption underlying democracy is that we are not looking for the most correct decisions, but rather for decisions that reflect the will of the public. What lies behind this is not the notion that the majority is right, but rather a notion of rights according to which every citizen has a built-in right to participate in making decisions that affect them. Again, not because this is how we will arrive at the best decisions, but because it is their right. If any citizen decides of their own free will to hand over the decision to someone else (which is essentially what we do in a representative government system) – there is no problem with that in principle. For example, Haredim vote in elections according to the instructions of the rabbi, and their members of Knesset vote (ostensibly. Blessed is the believer) according to the instructions of some council of sages. But the fundamental right belongs to the citizen himself.

Our conclusion is that Plato's proposal is fundamentally wrong, but not just for technical reasons. It is based on a false assumption. Even if the philosophers sat down and made the best decisions, that decision would still not reflect the will of the public and therefore would not be the binding decision.

The meaning of a democratic majority

Contrary to what those with a halakhic background are accustomed to thinking, the democratic majority is not the way to reach the truth, but the way to express the will of the public. Assuming that a citizen has the right to influence his fate, then the decision that society makes for him must correspond to his wishes. If it is a decision that applies to all citizens, then it is difficult to adapt the decision to the will of everyone. Of course, if there is agreement among all citizens, there is no problem, but in a situation where there are differences of opinion between people and groups, the decision that is supposed to express the will of the public is distilled into a mechanism that will determine what the will of the public is in such a situation. What does the public want when there is a dispute.

For example, if a proposal for some political agreement is on the agenda, and part of the public opposes and another part agrees. The agreement is binding on everyone and should be signed on behalf of everyone. Here we cannot act according to the will of every citizen and a single decision must be made for everyone. Therefore, in such a case, we must create a mechanism that will define what the public will is in a situation of dispute. It is common to adopt the mechanism of following the majority. But following the majority is not based on seeing the majority as the ascertainer of the truth, but rather on the fact that the majority is a reasonable criterion that expresses the collective will of the entire public.

There could, of course, be other mechanisms or criteria. For example, giving weight to each citizen according to the number of years he has lived, according to the extent of his contribution to society, according to the criticality of this decision for him, according to the degree of his conviction that it is right or wrong, and so on.[3] But it can be seen that the proposal to weigh a citizen's status according to their degree of wisdom is irrelevant in democratic discourse. This is because in a democracy we are not looking for the right decision, but rather the decision that reflects the will of the public.

Halachic implications

The rule of following the majority in Halacha is learned from the verse "after many to deviate" which is said regarding a court of law. When there are differences of opinion in a court of law, one follows the majority. Simply put, this is based on the fact that the majority is a criterion for truth (as also written Education In the mitzvah (8th commandment).

There are several principles in Halacha that involve a decision by majority. There is a law that "follows the majority," meaning that decisions are made based on probability (without going into the differences between a halachic majority and a probabilistic majority). For example, if a woman gave birth and we do not know in which month, the halachic assumption is that the birth was in the ninth month (this is the dalitah kaman majority). Or in the case of finding a piece of meat on the street, the assumption is that if most stores sell kosher meat, the piece is kosher (this is the daitah kaman majority). In addition, there is a second law of nullification by majority in the mixture, meaning that the minority in the mixture is nullified and takes the name of the majority (for example, a piece of pork that fell into a pot with pieces of kosher meat, according to the principle of the law, the entire mixture can be eaten). There is also a third law, majority in all, where if any requirement is met by the majority of individuals, it is considered as if it is met by all (for example, if the majority of the public is impure around Passover, they bring a Pesach sacrifice in impurity and do not postpone it to the second Pesach).

The Gemara in Cholin cites a source for the first law from the verse "after many to incline." Some of the former write that the second law is also learned from there (in different forms, and not always clear and agreed upon). There are some of the latter who wrote this about the third law as well. Against this background, it is very interesting that there is one halakhic context in which a long-standing polemic arose regarding following the majority: making decisions in the community, and there the connection to the verse "after many to incline" is not agreed upon and may not even exist. It now seems that the meaning of this puzzling matter also lies in the understanding of the democratic majority as I presented it above.

Implication: The concept of community and decision-making in the community 

The exodus of the Jewish people into exile occurred in stages. First, we lost our political autonomy in the Land of Israel, but the majority of the people were still here. After that, a significant part of the people went into exile, but the majority of the people still lived in Babylon, under a fairly autonomous Jewish government and legal system. Babylon had a hierarchical national structure, even if not political independence. In such a situation, the concept of community had not yet taken shape, since in reality it was still a cell within an active and effective national organism. But towards the end of the first millennium and the beginning of the second millennium, the dispersion of the people from Babylon began, and then small independent cells began to form throughout the world, which organized themselves in the form of communities as we know them today. Such a community lived its own life, and there was no Jewish government or Jewish legal system to which it was subordinate. Such a community made decisions on its own and for itself.

It is no wonder that it was only from the eleventh century that the poskim began to seriously discuss the method of decision-making in the community. Naturally, they turned to familiar mechanisms, primarily the mechanism of following the majority. Most poskim believed that the majority determines the decisions of the community, but some opposed this. For example, Rabbanu Tam believed that the majority has no meaning and that decisions in the community should be made unanimously.[4] This dispute was finally resolved only towards the end of the Middle Ages, and since then it has been accepted that even in community decisions, the majority is followed (this was also ruled inTable set And its bearers are Justice C. Rakhah). I believe that at the essential level, only then was the democratic nature of Jewish life determined.

What is interesting is that most of the first who discuss the question of decision-making in the community cite as a source for following the majority the verse "after many to incline," but many of them are careful to add another logical consideration. For example, in the Rosh's response that deals with this matter (Klal 6, 35), he writes:

And you asked: Can two or three of the moderates in the city exclude themselves from the agreement that the community will make, or from a decree of boycott that they will make on anything? Know that regarding the business of many, the Torah said: To incline after the many. Regarding every matter that the community agrees on, they follow the majority, and the individuals must carry out everything that the many agree on. Otherwise, the community will never agree on anything, if the individuals have the power to revoke their agreement; therefore, the Torah said, regarding every matter of the agreement of many: To incline after the many.

And so it is in several of the Rashba's responsa. The question is why the Rosh does not settle for the verse "after many to incline," and adds the consideration that if we do not follow the majority, it is not possible to reach consensus? Is this a matter of reading? After all, the verse deals with the case of a by-law, and the reasoning that the Rosh brings is not really relevant to the case of a by-law. It deals with decisions in the community.

In the article Good measure For the Parshat Mishpatim, 567,[5] I expand on this subject. Among other things, I argue that the goal of a majority in a court is to reach the truth, as opposed to a majority in a community, which is a democratic majority whose goal is to express public opinion (and not to strike at the truth, as explained above). In my article, I show some of the implications of the different perceptions of majority law, and especially of the question of whether its goal is to reveal the truth or to express the will of the public. For example, the jurists disagreed on whether in a court they follow the majority wisdom or the majority of the people (for example, if the head of the court, who is the wisest, disagrees with his two younger colleagues). My argument is that if one seeks the truth, it makes sense to follow the majority wisdom (this is actually Plato's proposal), and even those who do not adhere to the view that following the majority wisdom is for technical reasons only. In contrast, in a community, as I explained, there is no reason to adopt the Platonic proposal, since the decisions there do not seek to reveal the truth but rather to define the will of the public.

This is probably why the Rabbis believed that the law of "after many have voted" that seeks to ascertain the truth cannot teach about the manner of decision-making in a community. There is no source in the Torah that teaches that the majority is the way that best expresses the will of the public, and therefore, if there is a disagreement in the community, the majority cannot impose its opinion on the minority. This would be an infringement on the right that every citizen in a community or democratic state has to decide about his fate. The Rabbis' view favors liberalism and concern for individual rights over democracy as majority rule.

It should be noted that even the first to disagree with the R.T. apparently agreed with him on this point of principle, and therefore always made sure to add the logical reasoning in addition to the verse itself. In their view, too, the verse that deals with decision-making in the Jewish court (i.e., striving for halakhic truth) does not teach about a democratic majority (which aims to define the will of the public), and therefore it should be seen at most as a distant source of inspiration for the law of the democratic majority (majority in the community). The main thing is the explanation that says that without this it would be impossible to conduct business.[6]

My article mentions a dispute between historians Yitzhak Ber and Chaim Soloveitchik (see his aforementioned book), whether democracy was brought into general thought from the Torah or whether Halacha was influenced in this matter by general thought. I tend to favor Ber's opinion, since as we have seen, the verse "after many to lead astray" (cited by Soloveitchik as a source for the democratic concept) has nothing to do with democracy.

Summary: Back to Uri Yizhar

If we return to Marine Le Pen and Yitzhak Ben-Aharon, the conclusion is that there is indeed no obstacle to criticizing the majority's decision, but at the same time there is an obligation to accept it. The majority's decision is the result of a mechanism that reflects the will of the public, and this is what is required in a democracy. Although we have no guarantee that the majority does indeed reflect the most correct decision, we also do not need such a guarantee to determine that the majority is decisive.[7]

So, in this column we addressed the question Does the majority rule?, and we saw that it does indeed determine. But at the same time we saw that it does not depend on the question of whether the majority gets the truth or not. Ostensibly the question of the majority and the truth (Is the majority right?) remains open. On the other hand, majority law in halakhic law generally assumes that the probabilistic majority is indeed an indication of the truth. For example, we saw that in a court of law whose goal is to uncover halakhic truth, the Torah instructs us to follow the majority. In other words, it seems that the majority is indeed a criterion for truth, even if this has nothing to do with the democratic validity of the majority decision. It is no wonder that the sages learned from this verse the rule of majority law, the purpose of which is for the majority (perhaps with the exception of the majority law as a whole) to ascertain the truth. In the next column I will try to delve a little deeper into the question of the connection between majority and truth (Is the majority right?) and to show that this connection is also far from trivial.

[1] He adds another personal sentence there that is less important to our subject, but I will also include it here for the sake of completeness:

It seems that the upheavals and hardships that Israel has experienced since 1977 can teach us that the just punishment that the people imposed on the establishment in 1977 did not bring a cure for the ills of society and the state, and Ben-Aharon's words, even if they were said at the time as an irritated response, were a kind of prediction that, unfortunately, largely came true.

[2] There are versions that require handing over the decision to professionals. My assumption is that in political fields, such as security and foreign policy, there are no experts. As Ben-Gurion said, experts are experts in what was, not what will be. Therefore, I am dealing here with the question of handing over the decision to smart people and not to professionals.

[3] These various mechanisms are discussed in the field of mathematical economics. There is an incredibly fascinating book by Prof. Shmuel Nitzan, Preference and social choice, published by the Open University, which reviews the topic and shows several mathematical theorems with interesting and surprising results regarding it.

[4] See Mordechai in the Book of Revelation, 19:1-2, and also inResponse From Maharam Ben Baruch C. Rell and more.

For a review, see Menachem Ayalon's book, Hebrew law (Volume 1, Chapter Nineteen), as well as in the book by Prof. Chaim Soloveitchik, Responsorial Psalm as a source historical also Wikipedia By 'Community Regulations'.

[5] Also appears in my book (with Gabriel Hazut) In the shadow of wisdom, Kfar Hasidim Tsha, 2010.

[6] Ironically, it is precisely the law of the majority as a whole, which is generally perceived as the furthest from the meaning of the verse "after many to incline" (only some of the latter connect them), that is closest to the law of the democratic majority. It essentially says that the majority gives its character to the whole. Similarly, in a democratic majority, the will of the majority defines the will of the entire public.

[7] I will only note that a similar error arises with respect to the authority of the Talmud or halakhic authority. There too, people tend to think that if the Talmud has authority, then it is wiser and not wrong. There too, this is not necessary. The Talmud has authority because it was decided so by the whole of Israel, but this does not mean that it does not contain errors, and perhaps not even that it is wiser than any other sage. The validity of a decision and its correctness are not coincident principles.

58 תגובות

  1. Regarding all of the above (and probably more about the next article), it is necessary to comment on the words of Rabbi Gedaliah Nadel in his article on the affairs of the majority.

    But it is true that his words there are difficult to understand for several reasons.

    Let's see and wait for the next article…

  2. Following on from a comment on Dr. Solo's words
    To the best of my recollection, the Sanhedrin themselves were not elected in democratic elections, but rather as Plato suggested, according to their wisdom, or by the seniority system (although this is only with regard to the addition of new members; regarding the Sanhedrin in its beginnings, I do not recall that the method of election of the system as a whole is mentioned, except for the days of Moses, when they were elected based on heroism).

    1. On the 29th of Nissan 77

      Although Joshua advised Moses to select the people's judges in a hierarchical manner according to their qualifications, "And you shall provide from the people capable men, fearing God, men of truth, hating covetousness" (Exodus 18:21), Moses adds a basic condition, that the judge be acceptable to the people: "Bring out to you wise and learned men, and men of understanding for your tribes" (Deuteronomy 1:13), and thus the Sages instructed: "Do not appoint a chief over the people unless you first become king over the people."

      Even to the son of King Solomon and the grandson of King David, the elders advised: 'If today you will be a servant to this people and they will serve you and answer you and speak good things to them, and they will be your servants forever' (1 Kings, 12:7). Thus the Sages instructed, 'Whatever knowledge of people is convenient for us - knowledge of the place is convenient for us,' and thus Rabbi instructed to choose a path that is glory for those who do it and glory for him from man' (Avot 2:1).

      On the other hand, even where the community was given the authority to decide, it is appropriate that they consult the sages, since although the city's inhabitants were given the authority to 'set limits on the standards, the gates, and the wages of workers and to drive them away for their violation (Rashi: to fine the transgressor for the violation of their words...' (Bava Batra 8:2), and not only to the city's inhabitants but also to groups of craftsmen (ibid. 9:1) - but this is on the condition that 'someone is important, but here and there someone is important - not all are like ours' (ibid.).

      And Maimonides wrote:
      "The citizens are permitted to set up a gate for anything they wish, even for meat and bread, and to stipulate among themselves: "Anyone who crosses the border will be punished in this way and that way." Likewise, the masters of the arts are permitted to rule among themselves that no one will do on the same day as his neighbor does, and so on, and anyone who violates the condition will be punished in this way and that way.
      What are these things? In a country where there is no important wise man, it is important to correct the state's affairs and to make the ways of its inhabitants successful. But if there is an important wise man in it, their condition is of no use, and they cannot punish and lose for someone who did not accept the condition unless they made a condition with them and acted according to the wise man's advice (Hilkot Mecha, Chapter 14, 33:9-11).
      [On the words of the Maimonides: 'Unless he made a covenant with them and acted according to the wise man's advice,' Rabbi Kapach brought the explanation of the 'Or Semach' that two conditions are required for the offender to be fined, that first he made a covenant with them and that the matter be with the wise man's consent, and the explanation of the 'Hilchot Olam' (Rabbi Dober Karlowitz) that one of the conditions is sufficient: either he made a covenant with them or he acted according to the wise man's advice. And apparently the matters depend on the discussion in the first chapter on whether the majority can force the minority.]

      It seems that Jethro and Plato – both of whom had learned from bitter experience of the 'tyranny of the majority' – did not want to rely on the 'consent of the crowd' – but Moses, sent to establish a 'kingdom of priests and a holy nation', believed in leadership that knew how to elevate the people to their own heights, and was not willing to 'take a stick and beat them on the forehead,' although he knew how to act in this way too when necessary.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

    2. חידושה של אביגיל: סמכות המלך תלויה בהכרת הציבור says:

      On the 29th of Nissan 77

      This was Abigail's innovation, when David wanted to condemn Nabal as a rebel against the monarchy, since he had been anointed king by the prophet Samuel. Abigail claimed, 'Your name has not yet come out in the world.' The sign of public recognition of the king's kingship is that the coin that the king issues is accepted as 'legally valid' and passes through the merchant, and as long as this condition is not met, he is not a de facto king, even though he was anointed by a prophet. And David acknowledged her words by saying: 'Blessed is your taste...'.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

      Another condition for the legality of 'Dina Demalchuta' is that it be a permanent and equal law for all, as Maimonides says: 'The general rule is: Any law that the king enacts for everyone and that does not apply to one person alone is not theft. And whatever is taken from this person alone, not according to the law known to all, is theft' (Hebrew: Theft and Robbery, Chapter 5, 14).

      [And I remember seeing in a book by a Hungarian sage (I think it was 'Sefer Me'atov' by Rabbi Meshulam Rubinstein), that therefore it was necessary for Israel to accept the Torah upon themselves, because a commandment that is not equal for all in the world, even the King of the world cannot obligate his creatures, since 'Dina Demalchuta' must be equal for all]

  3. The meaning of the Torah's language in the Peshat (before the sermon of the Sages regarding the Sanhedrin who unanimously condemned) is interesting. After many, to incline, to incline/to conduct, we mean a technical and not absolute form of decision.
    And you shall not follow many to evil, meaning to determine absolute facts, which the many do not determine the truth.

  4. A. Did Plato claim that the method he proposed was democratic? If not, there is no point in attacking his method on grounds of undemocraticity.
    B. Is it possible to take a system that was born out of a lack of choice in communities or was copied from the Gentiles and turn it into a habit? When I pray to the Tree of David, one of my intentions is the end of fake democracy.

  5. Plato sought the best system; not the one that represents the public will.
    You don't even seem to notice that the basic question is which is better – the best or the public will. It seems to me that Plato doesn't need to make an effort to explain his position that the best is better than anything that is not the best.
    You can say that his question is irrelevant to you (but, as mentioned, do not attribute any error to him for this) because you are starting from a point of departure in which the public chooses the method, but this is of course the desired assumption – the question up for discussion is precisely whether the public is the one who chooses or whether there is another way of choosing.

  6. Samuel,
    I am well aware of Rabbi Nadel's words, and agree with most of them. But I will not address them here, nor (directly) in the next column.

    Moshe,
    I'm not sure I agree with your linguistic comment.

    Yishai,
    I didn't say that Plato was wrong, but that the Platonic proposal in the democratic context is wrong. Beyond that, I say here and now that Plato was wrong because I believe in democracy as a value (and he didn't believe in it).
    The question of what is better, whether what is best or what the public wants, is of course meaningless nonsense. What is best is what is best. This is a stupid tautology and not a question that I did not pay attention to (so if I did not pay attention to this question – well done). Bottom line, this is a question of values, and on the value level I am against Plato. Indeed, Plato does not need to make an effort to explain his tautology, and yet he is wrong (valuewise).

    Eliad,
    Regarding your first comment – see my words to Lishi.
    I disagree with the second comment. I do not examine perceptions and ideas by their origin, but by their substance. I am in favor of democracy even if its origin is outside (as I wrote). When I pray to the Seed of David, I intend that I hope your prayer will fail miserably and that our fake democracy will remain here with us.

  7. I still haven't gotten around to understanding what you wanted to say here in the column – if you wanted to say that Plato is wrong on a value level, then you didn't say it in the column but only in response, and you didn't give too much reason (I think you actually believe that it is possible to give some reasons even in a value debate). If you started from the assumption that he is wrong on a value level and wanted to say that if we start from a value starting point that there is value in democracy, then we should follow the majority because it is a value, then you can say it in one sentence (and it is also unnecessary).

    1. Well, if you don't understand, then I'll explain.
      I meant to say that there are people who think that the problem with the Platonic proposal is technical, and apparently this stems from their implicit assumption that the goal is to make the best decision. But there is another option, which I advocate, to reject the Platonic proposal because of a value consideration, that is, to take the approach that the goal of the decision is not the best outcome but rather a reflection of the public will. In other words, it is a question of value and not of mere technique. Perhaps what I did is unnecessary or obvious in your opinion, but that is what I wanted to say.
      Since I have quite a bit of experience, and have already had the opportunity to talk about this topic in several forums, it turns out that this is probably not entirely unnecessary. If you ask people (and I have done so more than once) what they think about Plato's proposal, you will usually get the two technical objections I brought up. You will probably say that they simply agree with Plato on a moral level, and everything is trivial. So that's not the case. It turns out that most of them actually agree not with him but with me, but they don't pay attention to this moral option (that the decision doesn't have to be the best). Somehow people assume that the goal is to make the best decision. And proof of this is that when I tell them my opinion, many of them agree (I've tried that too more than once).
      My goal was not to convince people of the value of democracy and the right of citizens to influence their own destiny, but only to present this option to those who actually adopt it unconsciously. To bring it to their awareness. That is why I did not find it necessary to give an explanation (and by the way, in my opinion, values, and this value in particular, cannot be explained).
      This is what I intended to say in this column, and if you have the ability to say it more briefly and better – congratulations. Each to his own abilities. Furthermore, it turns out that I am so unsuccessful that not only do I not know how to be brief, but even when I did extend it, I was unable to clarify my intention. This is a double failure and certainly it depends only on me (as the late Mark Twain said: Sorry, but I didn't have time to be brief). I will try to improve.

    2. There is value in your autonomy in doing the good deed, not just in doing the good deed.

  8. In my opinion, it can be said that Plato also favors the position that one should do what the public wants, but in his opinion, since the public lacks education, etc., it does not truly know what it wants.

    And a small child wants to drink bleach. His father certainly knows that if the child really knew the meaning of bleach, he would not want it. And so it is in the parable.

    Of course, this is a slippery slope, and everyone will say that they know the will of the public, and in the religious sense, even Plato agrees with the value of the will of the public, and so on.

  9. "My assumption is that in political fields, such as security and foreign policy, there are no experts. As Ben-Gurion said, experts are experts in what was, not what will be."
    why?
    Due to multiple variables?

  10. How would the Rabbi explain the story of Akhnai's oven if "after many turns" was intended to find the truth? (I assume that the voice reflects the truth)

  11. I don't understand the difference between what is best and what is the public's will:
    Of course, the goal is for the public to be satisfied, but not with the results of the elections, but with the actions of the government that will be formed after them!
    If there is (theoretically) a group of wise men who know best (=can form a government whose actions the public will be satisfied with), then it is better to use them rather than hold elections. I think the public itself would agree to that.
    Therefore, I do not understand the value preference of the public will over the best.

  12. For the record, what the Rabbi wants to say is that a public that does a good deed without it coming from it then has no value in that deed. There is value in making the best decision provided that the public itself is the one who chooses it, otherwise it is just a machine that performs neutral acts (an act is good if there is an intention behind it). Now the only question that remains is whether democracy expresses the will of the public in the best way. But it is clear to me that the will of the public in itself is not an end in itself. What will happen if the public is bad? (Sodom) and in general, what does the public exist for? To do just acts? Rather, it is a necessary condition for it to choose good (the purpose for which it exists, whatever it may be).

    In this context, the prayer "You have planted your servant" is related to the purpose of existence, whatever it may be. Apparently, the purpose will be achieved by a king and not by democracy. But for this reason, it will not be a king like in ancient times, who was a kind of shepherd of sheep. But a kingdom that is sublime in its knowledge is more mature than a democracy (which, as a tool for a good life, is successful and good for the people to the extent that the people living in it are good people, and otherwise will be a tool in the hands of the corrupt. A system of government cannot replace education). That is, in which the will of the people will somehow be expressed more fully than in a democracy.

  13. Indeed, it is good to answer here in my place. There is value in a good deed done by a person's choice. There is no value in programming a person to do the right thing, since there is also value in autonomy, not just truth. I expanded on this here:
    https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA/
    And see also here:
    https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94/

    The claim that Plato offers a paternalistic approach empties a person's right to decide. Therefore, it makes no sense to adopt such a view, even though my assessment of the abilities of a public is certainly not very high. But this is the person and this is what he wants, and his right to try to influence according to his own desires. To say that a person does not know what he himself wants empties his responsibility and moral and religious duties. Program him and that's enough.

    1. The decisions that need to be made are not about what a certain person will do on a moral question, in which case autonomy is at stake. The decisions are public decisions, whether to go to war, where to pave a road, how exactly to build the interchange, where to hang the thief, and so on.

    2. Lishi
      While all the examples of decisions you gave are not worthy of being made by the public, they really are not made by the public (except whether to go to war, which is indirectly still in the hands of the public somehow) because they require professionalism, experience, and knowledge in various fields that the public itself does not have. What the people do choose is the nature of the executive branch and the nature in which things will be done, and again, not how to now carry out what the executive branch is supposed to carry out.
      Regarding the decision "whether to go to war," it is a bit complex because it is made up of two parameters that need to be considered, one on the ethical level, meaning whether it is appropriate to go to war, and one on the factual level, meaning whether it is possible to go to war, what does it entail, etc. And of course, the content of one parameter affects the considerations on the other level and vice versa.

    3. Yishai, I was talking about these decisions. I wasn't talking about the conduct of an individual. It is precisely in these types of decisions that each citizen has the right to influence what the society he is a member of does in his name.

    4. Okay, thanks for your words, I understand that the paternalistic approach empties – often, not always – the person's right to decide.

      But why is it wrong? In my opinion, the public generally does not truly understand or does not read the map correctly. If they knew more, they would decide differently. So why is this approach immoral? On the contrary! And again, any reasonable person would agree about a baby drinking a toxic substance and the like.

      Is the debate over where the line is drawn? That is, are there many gray areas?

    5. To Rabbi Michi
      When you say: "I talked about these decisions," do you also mean that some of the decisions that the people should take part in are "how exactly to build an interchange," as Shishi wrote?

    6. Samuel,
      Because part of a person's right is to make his own decisions, even if he is wrong (and even if he is wrong in understanding his own position). A person has the right to make mistakes, and therefore paternalism is itself an infringement of the right of the other. A deaf, foolish, and petty person is an exception. It is unlikely that anyone endowed with a little more intelligence will make decisions for all those under him.

      emir,
      Indeed. In principle, everything that is done in my name, I have the right to influence the decision. Sometimes the public decides to hand the decision over to an expert who will make the right decision. But this is not because the goal is the right decision, but because it is the will of the public itself. It decided so.

    7. I understand the value of having the person decide on a certain issue rather than having someone decide for him, even if there is a guarantee that if they decide for him they will reach the right decision, when it comes to decisions on the value plane, but when it comes to decisions that are on the factual plane (and there is no dispute about the values between the citizen and the philosopher), then it is clear that it is better for the philosopher to be the one to decide, and if he has the power to take the decision power to himself, then the right thing to do is to do so and not put the value of that citizen's autonomy above the value of the "desired outcome." Does the Rabbi agree?

  14. There are cases in which it is possible to force a private person against their will (such as preventing suicide), and there are also decisions that theoretically the public does not have the legitimacy to decide on - such as appointing Hitler as Fuhrer - meaning that the range of errors that the public has the right to make has a theoretical limit. In this spirit, people can speak out against the people's will to appoint Le Pen, not because it is a mistake, but because it is a mistake that the public has no right to make.
    The left is broadcasting that, for them, electing Le Pen/Trump is like appointing Hitler as Fuhrer, so even if he is being harsh and lying, his discourse is still, according to his mistake, legitimate.

    1. Only where it is completely clear that the person making the decision is not fully sane (like a small, foolish deaf person). Preventing suicide is also not self-evident (certainly when you are outside of halakhic thought). Anyone can claim that another's decisions are a mistake, like Hitler. The contempt for this criterion once again empties the whole issue of rights of its content.

  15. "The cheapness of this criterion again empties the whole issue of rights of its content" – empties it, yes. But the person who firmly claims that the other person's decision would not be correct if he had known the truth, etc., is making a logical and logically correct claim. He may be wrong, but his line is equally correct towards a person who saves his foolish son from suicide.

    1. I agree with the theoretical statement, but in practice its use must be sparing. Therefore, it should only be applied to a fool and not to an adult who you think is wrong (except perhaps in very rare cases).

  16. You wrote, "There is value in a good deed done by a person's choice. There is no value in programming a person to do the right thing, since there is also value in autonomy, not just truth." This has nothing to do with choice in public matters.

    1. Obviously, but in analogy it's the same thing. A person's right to influence public decisions is likened to his decision-making in personal decisions. And just as personal decisions have no value in programming, a public act done against a person's will does not fulfill his right to influence.

  17. You define the denial of a person's right to act as he wishes only if it is clear that he is not fully sane. In this, you place freedom as the highest value that exists, rejecting every other value, and if people decide to appoint Hitler, it is legitimate as long as it is done with reason.
    But it seems to me that many people will not accept this, and preventing suicide [normal, not in borderline situations that come to prevent suffering, etc.] is legitimate not because the person is not sane, but because the value of a person's life is higher than the value of their freedom, and we can force them against their will.
    Of course, this is a slippery slope, because everyone will say that they have a value that is clearly above human freedom, but no one has yet used force to prevent the public's right to choose someone as they wish, and they only talk about the terrible choice, because it is on the border of the public's freedom of will. And there must be a border where the public cannot appoint Hitler, and according to the left, we are close to that border.
    [It's hard to believe, but there are people who are truly convinced that the State of Israel is fascist].

    It seems to me that in the introduction to Two Carts and a Hot Air Balloon you expanded on this issue of imposing values while denying the freedom of others (I don't remember exactly, I read that years ago).

    1. Hello, Itay. You are absolutely right (and I also wrote this in two columns in the chapter on tolerance and pluralism). I also know that there are people who think that the State of Israel is fascist. Furthermore, it is clear that freedom is not a supreme value. Where did I say that? I said that it is a value, and it must be taken into account. There are situations where I will agree that certain values outweigh the value of freedom (including on the question of suicide. I only wrote that the claim that forced suicide can be prevented is not self-evident). If it is clear to me that my country is heading for collective suicide, I suppose I will not respect the rights of others that much. But because freedom is an important value for me, I will carefully consider where and when to exercise such a consideration.

  18. I came to say that the left's argument against Le Pen is not that the public is wrong (and then you are rightly arguing – it has the right to be wrong), but that the election of Le Pen is leading the country to collective suicide and is illegitimate, and therefore the public's right to be wrong should not be respected. And it is clear that the left values the value of freedom, but from its perspective we are very close to the limit of legitimate freedom.

    – By the way, in this matter, it seems that the left (officially, however) is more accepting of the value of human freedom, while the right is willing to accept many values that are imposed on the individual against his will, and even in discourse, the right comes in the name of values (family values, nationality, etc.) and the left comes in the name of individual freedom, and therefore is not willing to see the individual bound to any kind of bond, family or national, but that is beyond the scope of the discussion here.

  19. In a public decision, programming really has no value, but it is completely marginal in a public decision. You can say that if you forced someone to put on tefillin, it is worthless, but even in the case of an individual, you will agree to coercion when it has an impact on others. In public decisions, the main thing is the impact on others. If I impose my opinion on the public, my goal will usually be to bring about the desired result, not that they will do the desired act.

  20. I would like to draw attention to the Talmudic story about the famous debate between Rabbi Eliezer and the sages in the case of Akhnai's oven. In my opinion, Rabbi Eliezer represents the truth there. While the sages represent what the majority wants. And the message that emerges from this story is that it is better for the public to want autonomy to err than to reach the truth. And this, in my opinion, is the true meaning of democracy: giving the public the opportunity to make a decision and – and also to err. This idea is even deeper than what we see on the surface. If we take the story of creation, we will see many contradictions between planning and execution. God wants light – light mixed with darkness that needs to be separated from the darkness. Finally, there is a judgment, “And God saw that it was good.” So what is good about that? Except that this is precisely the idea that the truth is the right thing. It is impossible to make a mistake. And this is the divine will. However, that same God gave judgment and determined that He gives room to reality. That is, He gives the possibility of error – this possibility is the existence of reality. And this is the meaning of "because it is good": there is room for reality to not obey God's will exactly, and that is okay. Similarly, there is room for humanity to act autonomously with the possibility of error.

    1. Hello Barak.
      I disagree. The sages have no right to act differently from the truth. What is at issue here is not the right of the sages but the value of autonomy. There is an obligation on a person to act and rule autonomously, and this overrides the value of truth.
      I also disagree with the story of creation. The inanimate creation has no will of its own, and therefore no rights or value of autonomy. Therefore, what happened there should not be tied to questions of autonomy and/or rights. At most, there is a bending of the divine will to the constraints of reality (I have written about this idea here several times when I explained how there is natural evil in the world, such as epidemics or tsunamis, etc. My argument was that the laws of nature also require the phenomena of evil, and therefore God was forced to do this).

  21. Honorable Rabbi, thank you for your comment. I didn't quite understand what the phrase "the bending of the divine will to the constraints of reality" means? This is just an apparent statement. I'm trying to say that there is a possibility of taking the following message: Reality/the world cannot always hold the absolute truth. The disagreement between the House of Hillel and the House of Shammai is well-known: a bride as she is or a beautiful and pious bride. There are situations in which a hierarchy of values is created: peace is sometimes preferable to truth. There is a different perspective, there is a departure from the entire system. Another thing, "to rule autonomously" seems to me to be a casual phrase that clarifies the explanation: if the wise man knows the truth - then there is no room for autonomy just for the principle.. If the majority does not know what the truth is and the majority is wrong, only he (what to do?) does not know that he is wrong, but only God knows, then God in this situation says, "Conquer me, my children," because he also established a principle to follow the Rabbi (who can make mistakes). In any case, if I conclude from your words the following: The sages have no right to act differently from the truth according to their opinion as long as they decide freely without any restrictions. Regarding the story of creation – I did not really mean to say that the inanimate creation has a will, but rather to point out an idea on a literary level – a message – it is impossible to treat the act of creation as a factual description. Rather, from the description that there is a gap between command and execution, one can speak of the bending of the divine will and interpret this as granting autonomy to reality. That is how I think. I may also be wrong…

    1. I do agree with this formulation (that the world does not contain the full divine truth). This is exactly the bending I was talking about. But what does this have to do with human autonomy?

      There is value in autonomy even when a person knows that he is wrong. That is why the Gemara says that the Maharal did not rule because his friends did not reach the end of his mind. If he was that wise, then the truth is with him and one should rule the law like him, right? But because they did not understand, they ruled differently, even though it is probably not the truth. A person should rule as he understands. See also the Maharal's words in Netiv HaTorah, 55, about someone who rules from his own opinion being better than someone who rules from books, even if he is right.

      In a halakhic debate, it is not about rights, because a person does not have the right to determine the truth. He must strive for the truth. This is precisely the difference compared to a majority in a democracy, where the goal of the decision is to reveal what the public wants and not what the truth is. Therefore, my words should not be applied to debates in the Bar or the High Court.

    2. 'There is value in autonomy even when the person knows they are wrong'?!

      If a person knows that he is wrong, this is not autonomy but distortion. A sage who rules over a law is convinced that he is right, since he has reasons and evidence to support his opinion. What the sages disagreed about Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Meir, despite their greatness, was because their reason seemed right to them, and it is not necessary that the greater one will always be right.

      In any case, there is no 'autonomy' against the majority of the sages who deliberated together and stood for a quorum and ruled according to the majority - so the minority is prohibited from instructing against the majority's decision, and 'the oven of Achnai' will prove it, so that the Torah does not become two Torahs.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

    3. Hello.
      When the friends of the R.M. did not come to his conclusion, then if their opinion was different from his, they were supposed to conclude that they were mistaken (but they did not understand what and why) and therefore to rule in the same way. Furthermore, this is a sweeping generality and not a single case. This is a statement that systematically they did not rule in the R.M.'s opinion despite his greatness and despite the fact that they apparently did not understand him, therefore it is clear that this is not a specific case in which they thought he was wrong but rather a general statement that although if you had asked them, they themselves would have said that he was probably right and they did not understand, since in their opinion and understanding the law is different, they must rule as they understood it, even though they themselves admit that they were probably wrong.
      I didn't mean to say that autonomy is for a person to do the opposite of what he himself thinks. That's ridiculous. But there are situations in which I believe X and my Bar-Plugta, who is much older than me, believes Y, and in my estimation, he is probably closer to the truth. And yet, since I stood by X, that's what I am obligated to do. And see the Rabbi I mentioned (Nativ Hatora 55) who elaborated on this.
      On matters of autonomy in case law, see my article here:
      https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94/

    4. In the 11th of Av,

      The Maharal in Netiv HaTorah (end of chapter 15) does not deny the very fact of relying on the opinion of a posek for halakhah. In his opinion, the problem with 'teaching halakhah from their mishnah' is not the fear of making a mistake, but rather because the teacher does not know the meaning of the halakhah, which is unbecoming of intellectual Torah.

      Based on this foundation, the Maharal explains that the Rambam and the Tur wrote their works in order to 'instruct the end of the halakha and what it derives from the Talmud. But for a person to rule from it without knowing where the law originates, only to follow it without a reason - did not enter their minds or thoughts.'

      Maharal says that if Maimonides and the Tur had known that their halakhic writings would cause people to abandon the study of the Talmud, they would not have written their writings, since rather than abandoning the Talmud, 'it would be more appropriate and correct for him to be a judge from the Talmud,' and even if 'his wisdom and understanding mislead him, with all this he is loved when he teaches according to what his mind requires, and a judge should not only judge what his eyes see, and he is better than someone who rules from a single writing and does not know the meaning of the matter.'

      There is nothing in the Maharal's words against someone who relies on the words of the great rabbis for legal purposes after having studied the Talmud and understood their meaning and origin. His main criticism is against someone who does not know their meaning and origin in the Talmud (and Rabbi Migash believed the opposite, that it is better for someone to be guided by the words of the rabbis, even if he does not know their origin in the Talmud).

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

      It is worth noting that what the Sages demanded, "and I will not let them go" about the Torah scholars who "extend one another," whose Torah is loved even though they are wrong, has already been explained in their words, which is precisely "difference is great in meaning." He says: For us, "there is great in meaning," the words of the first and last who concluded that hearing leads to understanding - we must "make our ears like an aperch" and labor to understand their meaning and origin in the words of the Sages, and "you will labor and find - believe."

      Moreover, there is great concern that the current use of the slogan 'halachic autonomy' will not lead most listeners to carefully study all the words of the Sages in the Talmud and Midrashim and from them to teach halachah, but rather to teach halachah from 'Google Rabbi's rulings', without thorough knowledge of either the Talmud or the poskim, the main thing is that it sounds good and 'connects' to it 🙂 It is clear that this is not what the Maharal intended.

    5. To our rabbi, a man named Menashe, he spoke.
      It seems to me that your interpretation of the Maharal is unfounded on its face. In your opinion, he does not speak at all about the form of ruling, which must certainly be made according to books. He only claims that one must understand the source of the laws and rulings in the books (and not be like a Magogushi). But according to this, why does he add that in the eyes of God, the one who rules from his own understanding and even makes a mistake is better than the one who rules from the books and even if he is right? After all, in your opinion, there should be no difference in ruling. Whoever errs here will also err here, and vice versa.
      Of course, he advocates autonomous rulings and not from the books, in light of his understanding of the reasons and motives of the halakhic law and the judgment of the rabbi himself (and not from the books). Therefore, he says that it is possible that that person will be mistaken, since the great rishonim and poskim are certainly not the ones who destroy the canon of the Agama. Therefore, he adds that autonomy is still important. And he is careful.

    6. האוטונומיה האבירית ומיגבלותיה (לרמד"א) says:

      In the 11th of Av,

      To Ramada – Greetings,

      The knight Don Quixote of La Mancha, to whom you alluded, is an excellent example of the limitations of the ethos of 'autonomy'. A knight deserves a medal when he is alone in the field and exercises his independent judgment, and then even if it turns out that he was wrong and the fortress he stormed was nothing more than a windmill, he deserves praise for acting appropriately in light of the data he had.

      However, when the knight is in the framework of a military unit, with experienced commanders above him who have effective intelligence - then it is appropriate that he should not act 'autonomously' but rather rely on the judgment of the commanders, who have reliable tools to distinguish between an 'enemy outpost and an innocent windmill.' The knight will fulfill his knightly duty to 'grow a head' when he is in an organized army by asking his commanders 'about what and why?' and will carry out their tasks with a deep understanding. Then he will be able to exercise correct judgment even when the commander is not with him.

      The words of the Maharal should be read with the tools that he himself provides: awareness of the source of the words in the words of the Sages. The source of the fact that even someone who is mistaken in his own eyes is loved before the place is in Tractate Shabbat 33: "Rabbi Abba said, Reish Lakish: Two scholars of the Torah who teach each other in Halacha, the Blessed One loves them, as it is said: 'And love overflows upon me.'" Rava said: "And he knows the form of the sound and the depth of the sound, and he is great in the measure of the end of its kinds."

      Ho says: The one who errs in his own eyes is loved, only when it is a 'default', when he has no rabbi to learn from!

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

    7. To Rabbi Shtzel Shlita.
      I disagree with Mr. even in the situation of a military structure, and I have already written about it. An overly disciplined army is a bad army.
      But I questioned Mr. Lehar's interpretation and was not answered. Del, please provide the source of the words. Read it in person and you will see that your interpretation is not possible in his words.

    8. In the words of the Maharal, it is clear that a ruling from the study of the Talmud, even if it was erroneous, is preferable to a ruling from books that are correct but without knowledge of the source and the reason. As I wrote in the first response, the Maharal does not state anything about the superiority of an erroneous personal ruling over relying on a great rabbi with knowledge of the reason, and it turns out that the fact that it is a great authority in the matter is preferable to the conclusion of the matter.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

      The Maharal's reason for the necessity of knowing the reason is that this is appropriate for the intellectual Torah, and it is possible that this is related to his view in the first chapters of Tiferet Yisrael that the commandments were given to connect man with the Supreme Wisdom, and it is understood that there is a disadvantage in doing without a connection to the Supreme Wisdom.

      There is no statement in the Maharal's words about 'halachic autonomy' as a supreme value. All 'autonomy' is a state of constraint of exile, as long as there is no Sanhedrin or agreed-upon halachic authority. Is it conceivable that 'the upright man will do it', which involves gathering and making the Torah into a million teachings - would be the Torah's soul's desire?

    9. ע"י עשיית המצוות אדם דבק בשכלי (תפא"י ח) says:

      In the 12th of Av, 87

      The Maharal's words about connecting man with divine wisdom through the performance of the mitzvot are in his book Tiferet Yisrael, Chapter 8:
      "And the person who does and keeps this order that God, blessed be He, has arranged, this is the union and purification of the human soul, because by doing the commandments, which are the intellectual order, he adheres to the intellect, and through this he adheres to it, blessed be He."

      Indeed, even when a person does not understand the meaning of the mitzvah, the person communicates in the rational order, as he says there:
      'And even if he does not know and does not understand the matter of this law, was not the Torah given only to unite beings, and this union is for a person, whether he knows the meaning of the mitzvah or not, only when his actions are drawn after the intellectual order that is proper for him... For the Torah is the intellectual order that is proper for a person in what he is, and through the mitzvot he is attached to his intellect and through this he is attached to the Blessed One.'

      It turns out, therefore, that even without knowing the reason, there is adherence to the rational order, but when one knows and understands the reason, adherence to the rational order is infinitely greater, and therefore the Maharal sees great importance in understanding the reason and the source of the law.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

    10. Well, that's already a misunderstanding. Read it again. By the way, many have already insisted that this chapter was written as part of the polemic he (along with his brother and the Rashal) waged against the Shulchan Arbiter and the precedent approach in general. So it's clear that he believes, like me, that there's no connection to this chapter, but it's written here too.
      Clarification: Of course, when I talk about personal rulings, I mean from the Talmud. I didn't mean for you to do whatever comes to your mind. Doing whatever comes to your mind is not a halachic ruling, and that's not what we're talking about. But even a badai'ah for a rabbi in a mata is not preferable to a magmar minya. That's exactly what he writes.

    11. So the Maharal, who carries the banner of ruling from the Talmud, will believe the opposite of the words of the Talmud (Shabbat 33) that instead of the word "Da'it Rabbah" to "Migmar Minya" it is not said, "And love will pass over me"?

      On the contrary, in the Agadot Chidushei there, the Maharal speaks about the importance of the "Ligmar", and he laments the situation at his time, "because we in the Awwa have no "Ligmar" at all, and this in itself is a reason why we also have no explanation at all, because if not a Gamir, where does he get his opinion from when he knows no law?"

      Knowledge of the laws, according to the Maharal, is the foundation for studying the interpretation, and he makes it clear in his words that his objection is to the situation where the words of the poskim become a substitute for studying the Talmud, instead of their true purpose of being an aid to the student in clarifying the halakhah.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

      And as usual, besides the practical necessity of the 'Ligmar', the Maharal also adds the ethical dimension in the need to receive intelligence from another, 'that every supreme success comes from God, blessed be He, who was not worthy of it on his own, and causes this thing when he is endowed with a supreme intelligence that is not worthy of a person on his own... And for this reason he also said that those who ascend to greatness... who reach the supreme intelligence that is more than the level of a person on his own - they deserve greatness... For even if he were a very, very great sage - if he did not attain it through "the forces that sharpen each other" it is not so much, because since he attained it from his other, this thing would be called a virtue, which is not worthy of a person on his own.'

      In short: 'autonomy' is not enough. It is precisely 'heteronomy' in which a person achieves the intellect of another person, which he could not achieve on his own - then a person reaches a higher intellect.

    12. Shtsel, I brought my clear view from the Maharal's words, and despite my repeated requests, I did not see in your words a rejection, but more and more slogans. I think we have exhausted ourselves.

    13. On the 14th of Av,

      I will return for the fourth time:

      The Maharal in Netiv HaTorah, Chapter 15, spoke about the superiority of a ruling from the Talmud, even with the fear of error, over a ruling from a book of halacha without knowledge of the source in the Talmud. There is nothing in his words to say against a ruling based on a book of halacha when one understands its meaning and source in the Talmud. And it turns out that this possibility is preferable, since on Shabbat Seg it is explained that "Delugu eli ahava" is only said "Badalit liya rabba migmar minya."

      The reason for the necessity of knowing the source in the Talmud is explained in the words of the Maharal, that this is appropriate for the intellectual Torah, and I linked this to his words in Teret Yisrael, Chapter 8, that the purpose of the commandments is to connect human action to the divine intellect. It is well understood based on this principle why a ruling is not enough without intellectual understanding. On the other hand, the great importance of "to conclude" is explained in the novellas of Agadot for Shabbat Seg, both because without knowledge of the law to its truth there is no ability to reason at all, and because of the necessity of being open to receiving the intellect of one's fellow man, an intellect that one could not have attained on one's own, which is why even a great sage needs to hear another opinion.

      The words of the Maharal, and like him, of any great thinker, are not acquired through superficial reading, but rather through the grammar of his words, understanding his foundations in the words of the sages, and drawing on his words in other places that explain the deep intellectual foundations of his system.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

    14. Indeed, here it has been proven that the Maharal's words are not to be understood by superficial reading. You did not answer. We have exhausted ourselves.

    15. The Maharal's words about the necessity of knowing the source of the halakhah and its flavor in the Talmud are combined with his struggle against the method of gossip and "divisions" practiced in yeshivas, which severed the study of the Talmud from the trend of "learn from what is heard and not from what is heard" and also reduced knowledge.

      As soon as the Talmud ceased to be the source for clarifying halakhah, this also negatively affected halakhic rulings, as the number of teachers who did not understand the words of the poskim from their foundations in the Talmud increased, and the Rabbi (Derech HaChayim 4:4) angrily cries out to God, "They trust in the name of Rav Kol who will fill his hand, only to start whistling loudly in the Talmud." A reality that causes Torah to be forgotten, since neither the student in the yeshiva nor the teacher of halakhah has any incentive to deepen their study of the Asukis, because they hear the halakhah.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger.

    16. Not true. If anything, then this is part of his struggle against the codification of R.I. Caro and the Rema. It is indeed true that he also fought against the blabbermouth, but this chapter is not related to that in any way, as is clear to anyone who reads it.
      Look closely and you will see that the possibility of error lies with him precisely with someone who rules out of understanding and without dependence on the poskim. According to you, the possibility of error lies precisely with someone who relies on the poskim and not on explanations (because he does not understand them).
      This is really just reading comprehension, and I really don't understand the need for all this discussion about what is written there in the commentary.

    17. In the 15th of Av,

      I did not encounter in my Maharal's books a 'struggle' against Rabbi Yosef Karo and his work 'Beit Yosef'. It turns out that the Maharal did not hold to the technical decision of the 'Beit Yosef' according to most of the 'pillars of instruction', but the very interpretive work of Rabbi Yosef Karo - 'Kesef Mishnah' on the Rambam and 'Beit Yosef' on the Torahs - which connect the rulings of the Rambam and the Torahs to the reason and source in the Talmud, is consistent with the Maharal's demand in Netiv HaTorah 55 that the one who decides the halakhic law should know the reason and source of the law in the Talmud.

      Best regards, S.C. Levinger

  22. I just got around to reading the entire post about his comments today,

    My conclusion is:
    And I'm sure many will disagree with me, that wisdom among the Gentiles - believe - Torah in Israel - sometimes - don't believe!
    That is – we gave the Gentiles wisdom and we will believe them – but we have denied ourselves the wisdom of the Torah because the Gentiles will not believe us because we ourselves admit that sometimes we do not follow what is right – so what is it worth? Giving all the credit to the Gentiles?

    1. Moshe,
      First, if many agree with you, then it is of course a confirmation of my words (see column 66 and especially 69 🙂).
      Second, the considerations of who will believe whom and why and what the consequences will be are irrelevant. The question is what is the truth, not what the truth will or will not do for us, and whether we give anyone credit.
      And third, don't take autonomy lightly. You assume that only truth has value, but the ways of ruling are themselves Torah, and autonomy is a value no less important than truth. And tactically, today such an approach would certainly be highly appreciated (if it is even important. See my previous comment), contrary to what you say.

      1. I don't know if you are familiar with the opinion of the Rambam regarding the decisions of the majority of the community or the rabbi of the community in halachic regulations or customs (not financial matters), in which he is different from all those you mentioned, whether Ramban, Rashba, Rosh, Rivash, or S.L., who is just a figure like Samson in his generation or Samuel in his generation, that is, an authority that is accepted by the entire Jewish people, or like the validity of the Talmud that was accepted by the entire Jewish people, but an authority that is only in one country or one community does not have this power, but this is a way of qualification, in contrast to the other Rishonim.
        Maimonides' Responsa Peer Hador (Jerusalem Institute) Rafaj (in a small volume also in Rafad)
        You can see this in the Responsa HaRa'am 57.
        And also in the Rashba's response 7 (attributed to Ramban) ref. p. 390 in the Jerusalem Institute, 19th century.

  23. There was a mistake in the previous email on line 6. It's a small mistake.

    In any case, I saw that you actually wrote that it was the opinion of the R.T.
    And so was brought the aforementioned Ram, whom I mentioned, and he also brought Rabi'ah in the name of his old master from Mitz.
    And emphasizes this issue that in their opinion only the Great Judge or any figure to whom all of Israel listens

    Maimonides' Responsa
    You asked about the matter of the boycott that some of you boycotted on the authority… Anyone who was standing in the synagogue during the boycott and answered Amen is obligated to take an oath, and anyone who did not answer Amen is exempt from anything and does not need to cover his ears or close his eyes, as you said, even though he is standing on the side of the rabbis, even if he was holding a Torah scroll during the boycott, if he did not utter an oath from his mouth and did not answer Amen, he is exempt from anything, especially for someone who was not in the synagogue. And all those who did not answer Amen or were not there during the boycott if they accepted it later… And anyone who received a boycott that many boycotted upon hearing it or answered Amen… But certainly those who did not hear or heard the boycott and did not accept it or did not perceive it themselves are not obligated in anything. But they are prohibited from another matter because they will not gather… And it is clear that anyone who did not answer Amen and did not perceive himself but practiced prohibition all these years and did not hear permission because it occurred to him that he was obligated. If he heard permission from the time they were banned, then it is permissible for him to introduce himself into the ban. Anyone who wishes, after being informed that it is permissible because he did not swear and did not perceive himself under oath… And the thing is that most people imagine that all those who boycott something from the words of the ban, such as this ban, will all be obligated to accept the ban. This is not the case… There is no one in the world who has come to the idea that he will swear and someone else will prohibit, but because of ablution, he will be obligated if the same thing that was banned was done by him, something that makes him obligated to ablution. However, on the words of the ban, which do not contain any commandment, a person is prohibited from banning others to do or not to do, but for himself and anyone who wishes has permission to ban.

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