Lessons from the Holocaust – On Fundamentalism, Atrocities, and Autonomy (Volume 67)
With God’s help
On the last Holocaust Memorial Day, I had some thoughts that seemed important to me. So I thought it would be appropriate to take a break before Next column (which will address the question of whether the majority is right) and present them here.
Who perpetrated the Holocaust?
Rabbi Amital once said that he met Abba Kovner (poet and writer, partisan, publicist and ideologue, education officer, some called him the political truck, of the Givati Brigade). Both were Holocaust survivors. Abba Kovner told the rabbi that in the Holocaust he lost his faith in God. Rabbi Amital replied that in the Holocaust he lost his faith in man.[1] There is an interesting reversal here, the atheist blames the Holocaust on G-d, and the rabbi blames it on man. I have already argued here in the past that faith does not require us to see events in the world as the work of G-d, since He gave us the choice between good and evil, and therefore acts like the Holocaust are carried out by the Nazis and not by G-d (at most, He did not prevent it). Here I would like to address another aspect, although somewhat tangential.
Religious belief and horrors
In religious education, we are taught that "if there is no God in this place, let him kill me," meaning that belief in God is a brake on the terrible consequences that can result from man's actions and passions (Hobbes's natural state). Belief in God is a guarantee of moral and humane behavior. In contrast, in our world, there is a feeling that the situation is the opposite: atrocities usually occur in the name of God and belief in Him. In the absence of faith, there would be no atrocities. Humanism (placing man at the center) is the brake on the horrors of religious belief. For example, Dawkins writes that in every society there are good people who do good deeds and bad people who do bad deeds. But the phenomenon of good people doing bad deeds can only occur in a religious society. Faith causes good people to do bad deeds in its name. It is also commonly believed that mass murderers always act in the name of religion. This is, of course, a statement that is factually unfounded. In the sixth chapter of my book God plays dice I have already stated that most of the mass murderers of the twentieth century were secular, and even did so in the name of secularism (Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. Hitler is a more complex question. Likewise today in Africa and Eastern Europe there are mass murders in the name of nationality or tribe with no clear connection to religion). Although in the past the murderers were religious, the whole world was essentially religious at the time (therefore, those who did good deeds were also mainly religious at the time). Since its birth, secularism has had nothing to be ashamed of in its achievements, even on this unsympathetic level. I wrote there that indeed there is no ideological murder without ideology (preferably total), but this is a simple tautology that religion and religious belief have little to do with it.
Well, then each side is certain that its path is not only correct but also the only guarantee of morality. We are all biased and therefore do not think straight. There is not much new in this. Here I actually wanted to argue that there is truth in the claims of both sides. Indeed, faith (like any unqualified ideological commitment) can cause atrocities, and at the same time God can act as a brake on them. This brings me to the question of the correct relationship between religious faith, critical thinking, and moral atrocities.
The lesson from the Nuremberg Trials
To the man in the street, it seems obvious that Nazis of all levels and ranks should be tried for their crimes. However, from a legal perspective, a difficult question arises here. How can a person be tried for obeying the law? At most, the legislator who established the laws can be tried, but can the citizen or soldier also be tried? Legal judgment, unlike moral judgment, purifies the categories of guilt. As long as there is no legal provision prohibiting the act, it is impossible to put a person on trial for committing it. It is no wonder, then, that many of the defendants in the Nuremberg Trials took the defense that they were obeying orders (or the law). As far as I understand it, the main legal innovation of the Nuremberg Trials is that in certain cases a person can be tried (legally, not just morally) even without a law prohibiting what he did. When he commits atrocities that exceed any minimal moral truth, no law is needed to put him on trial. This is how the matter was expanded in the Kafr Qasem affair when soldiers were put on trial for carrying out the order they received (to kill curfew violators). Since then, Judge Binyamin Halevi's statement about "an order with a black flag flying above it" has been etched in all of our hearts. Such an order must not be given and must not be carried out. Whoever gave it and whoever carried it out will be put on trial for it. This is an expansion of the above insight from the Nuremberg trials.
What underlies this innovation is a twofold assumption: 1. There are fundamental moral laws to which every person is also legally bound, and they are binding regardless of whether they have been enacted in his country or not. 2. An individual is responsible for his actions, even if they were done by order of an authorized person or by law. These are at most reasons for mitigating the punishment, but ultimately a person who does something cannot shift responsibility for his actions onto another person, no matter how important, authorized, and wise. If you did something, the fundamental responsibility is yours. This is a perception of man as a sovereign and autonomous being who must make decisions about his actions and is therefore also responsible for them.
Conscientious objection
There is another extension of this line of thought. What happens when an order or directive is given that is clearly legal, but the person finds it to be contrary to fundamental values that he personally believes in. For example, an order to evacuate communities as part of a peace agreement. There are soldiers and civilians who see such an order as immoral and as very fundamentally and deeply contrary to their world of values. On the other hand, it is clear that such an order is clearly legal. It is a decision of a sovereign government that is implemented by the army and the military command, and therefore from a legal and military perspective there is an absolute obligation to obey it.
Such dilemmas arise mainly in the army, although not only in it (there is also conscientious objection or civil disobedience). There are people on the left who feel this way about service in the territories or in Lebanon (or as Amos Oz wrote about the decision to deport and transfer Arabs), and on the right in relation to the evacuation of settlements and the handover of territory to a foreign government. Ostensibly, in such a situation there is no escape, and the soldier or citizen must comply with the order or law, since there is no black flag waving above it. It is completely legal. However, modern legal thought treats such a situation in a more complex way. On the one hand, there is clearly an obligation to obey the law or order, but on the other hand there is legitimacy (legally) to refuse. The refuser will be punished because he broke the law, but society will not see him as a criminal but as a conscientious objector (which may also lighten the punishment). Furthermore, the punishment here does not express condemnation of the person, but rather serves as a filter whose main purpose is to ensure that this is a step that truly goes against his values and beyond the red lines. The indication for this is that he is indeed willing to pay the price of a prison sentence for his decision. If no punishment were imposed on such a person, this would open the door for anyone who disagrees with any ordinance or law, or who is simply uncomfortable with them, to violate them. The legislator wants to ensure that this will only be done in extreme situations. That the citizen or soldier will not decide to refuse whenever something seems wrong to him, but only in cases where the matter is acute and extremely serious from his point of view and from his beliefs. Therefore, such a refusal is subject to punishment.
Many confuse the two levels. They treat an order to evacuate a settlement as an order with a black flag flying above it. This can perhaps be said, but not in Justice Halevi's original legal sense, since the order is completely legal and there is a legal obligation to obey and fulfill it. This can only be said in a moral sense (and not in a legal sense). The difference between the situations is that in the first case (of a clearly illegal order) the one who gives the order and those who carry it out will be prosecuted and punished. And those who do not carry it out will of course not be charged. But in the second case (of conscientious objection) the one who gave the order will of course not be prosecuted. On the contrary, those who do not carry it out will be prosecuted and punished, but at the same time they will still be perceived as legitimate, respectable citizens.
The importance of refusal
We are very used to statements that refusal destroys the army and society. There is something to this, after all, an army is built on orders and a reformed society is built on obedience and respect for the law. But this perception is only partial. To the same extent, it is very important to clarify to people the possibility and obligation to refuse when the order or law crosses a red line for them. And again, I am not talking about biased statements that support refusal when it comes from the "right" side (in my opinion) and strongly condemn it when it comes from the other side (which is what usually happens, of course, on both sides). I am talking about the importance of refusal in whatever form it is. I expect every person who finds themselves in a situation where the order or law fundamentally contradicts their values (regardless of my opinion of them) to consider the possibility of refusal, and even to exercise it if necessary. This is the human image in us. We are never just citizens of a country or soldiers in the army. We are first and foremost human beings who are committed to their own values and their personal ethical and conscientious backbone. Therefore, every action we do must pass our personal filter, and it is not enough that the law or military orders require it.
When I taught at a yeshiva in Yeruham, I spoke to a group of students who were taking an officer course. I told them that I would not go to war with a soldier who I knew would never refuse me. This is a bad soldier who creates a bad army. The officer's job is to educate the soldier to obey orders, and at the same time to instill in him his duty to refuse when the orders cross a red line for him, or are clearly illogical. This is after carefully considering how convinced he is, equipped with facts, and how serious the expected moral or practical damage is compared to the damage of refusal. For example, there are situations in which an officer in the field receives orders that he clearly knows are incorrect. This is not a moral dilemma (only indirectly), but a command and operational decision. In certain cases, he is obliged to consider refusal. This is when it is completely clear to him that the echelon above him is wrong and insists, and that all the relevant facts are in his hands. The military significance of such a "big head" is presented as destructive and strongly rejected by our society. But the significance of blind obedience and a "small head" can be no less destructive, ethically and operationally, and also lead to bad decisions, ethically or operationally. If there are no people at the end of the chain with backbone who will consider refusal, or if my soldier will never refuse me, then I have no motivation as a commander to consider the orders I give. On the other hand, soldiers who may refuse force the commanding echelon to think twice about the orders he gives. This way the orders will be better and more moral, and will create a better army. Therefore, refusal is not just a right of the soldier or a defense argument that gives legitimacy to his refusal (of a conscientious objector). It is an important value that also improves the moral and operational functioning of the army.
And again, I will reiterate that, of course, discipline is important, and refusal is a last resort for very exceptional extreme cases. The soldier and the citizen should consider very seriously whether, in this given situation, there is justification for refusing. But nevertheless, the very existence of the possibility of refusing is very important on both levels: both in terms of the quality of the soldier and the person in him, and in terms of the quality of the army and its orders. Blind obedience leads to atrocities and led, among other things, to the Holocaust. But as mentioned, it can also lead to simply bad decisions by detached commanders.
About the atrocities of tyrants
I once read a biography of Stalin, and I remember that a thought kept accompanying me the whole time that I couldn't get rid of. This is the ruler of a huge country with about one hundred and fifty million citizens (the USSR). Everyone who has any connection with him (as opposed to innocent, distant citizens who are subject to constant propaganda) is afraid of him to death and wants to kill him. And yet Stalin died in his bed after more than forty years of absolute terror over this entire vast empire (except for conspiracy theories that exist everywhere here, of course). How is this possible? How could one man alone, for about half a century, defeat a power of one hundred and fifty million people with a huge army and powerful security organizations? The answer is the fear that leads to obedience. Stalin committed all the atrocities through his soldiers and citizens. He did not do it himself. Stalin ruled them without mercy and gained their complete obedience. Everyone was afraid to take a step of resistance or rebellion, lest they report him or he simply fail, and then of course he would die immediately. This fear brought this entire mighty mechanism to its knees. At the command of a single man and dancing to his flute. This is how he was able to carry out all his atrocities and madness.
Between guilt and responsibility
But what can the ordinary citizen do? After all, he is afraid of death, and rightly so. Every time he turns to someone in an attempt to rebel, to assassinate, to prevent the implementation of some order, he risks a real danger to his life. That person can inform on him and he will be subjected to torture and immediate death. Is it any wonder that the vast majority of people did nothing (there were those who tried, and indeed failed)?! Is it possible to come to them with complaints?
A similar question arises in the context of the people of Shechem. Maimonides writes in 1 Kings 9:4:
And as it is commanded of the judges, they are obligated to appoint judges and magistrates in every province and district to judge these six commandments, and to warn the people, and a son of Noah who transgresses one of these seven commandments will be killed by the sword, and because of this all the owners of Shechem are obligated to kill, because Shechem plundered and they saw and knew and did not judge it…
He explains that the residents of Nablus pledged to die for not condemning their king who had usurped their rights and abused her. And the commentators have already made it difficult for him: What could a simple resident of Nablus do to his king? And is it possible for a simple citizen in a country (apparently not democratic) to do anything against the injustices of his omnipotent king? After all, he would have had his head whipped on the spot, just like Stalin.
I think Maimonides' argument is that while it is difficult to make accusations against the common man, the responsibility nevertheless lies with him. After all, what the King of Shechem did could not have been done without all the citizens. He rules by their power (even if he was not democratically elected) and therefore acts by their power, just like Stalin. They are the ones who give him the power, and without them he has no power. Therefore, even if everyone has a good explanation for why he is not acting and cannot act, each citizen still bears personal responsibility. After all, all of them together could certainly have prevented this. One could perhaps say that there is no blame here, but rather an imposition of responsibility.
I will clarify that I assume that I too would not have acted differently in the situation of the people of Nablus or the residents of the USSR, and yet if we do not hold the individual citizen responsible, we will not be able to prevent atrocities committed by his power and strength. All the residents of Nablus are nothing more than a collection of citizens, just as the USSR is nothing more than a collection of its citizens. If none of them are responsible, there is no one who will be responsible for the atrocities committed by his power. There is no choice but to hold the isolated and powerless individual responsible, despite the fear and despite the fact that we in his place probably would not have acted differently. A standard must still be set that requires each such individual to act, and in principle, perhaps we can also judge him if he did not act.
Think of a Soviet soldier or policeman who came to arrest or kill you unjustly. He is not guilty because if he refuses, they will surely kill him. Am I allowed to kill him in order to save myself? Of course, yes. This is analogous to the law of persecuting a fool or a minor. It is said that a fool takes a weapon and starts shooting in all directions. This is of course not his fault, since he is mindless and has no responsibility for his actions. Is it permissible to kill him? Of course, it is. Not because he is guilty but because he is responsible (meaning he is the one who should pay the price to neutralize the danger. Certainly not me). Indeed, according to the law, it is certainly permissible and necessary to kill a persecutor, even if he is mindless, because even though he is not guilty, he is responsible. And in the same way, it is permissible to kill a Soviet policeman who came against his will to kill me. This means that I hold him responsible for what he does even though he is not guilty of it.[2]
Therefore, the responsibility for what a state does, even if it is totalitarian, lies with the citizens, because without them it would not have happened. They have a responsibility to unite and resist despite fear and to refuse. They must not agree to carry out the atrocities and even prevent their execution, despite fear. If they did not do so – perhaps there is no guilt, but the responsibility certainly lies with them. This is the basis for the claims against the Nazi criminals. Even if there was terrible fear and there was no real possibility of preventing the acts and resisting them, the responsibility nevertheless lies with them. As we have seen, the fact that there is an order, even a legal one, and even if there is terrible fear and helplessness, it is impossible not to impose responsibility on the individual citizen. Responsibility for a collective that is not imposed on any of the individual citizens is empty of content (in the words of Chazal: "I am not a warm or cold companion of mine"). The obedient silence is what enables the commission of these atrocities, especially when it comes to large-scale ones, and imposing individual responsibility is, and only it, perhaps able to prevent them. The way to prevent atrocities is to impose responsibility on the individual, even when he acts by virtue of an authoritarian, frightening system, and even when it is wise and just.
Application of religious law
Are these things also applicable to religious law (halakha)? It is worth noting that the atrocities being committed today in Iraq and Syria by ISIS are justified in exactly this way. Every such operative is certain that he is acting according to a divine command (through Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who in his eyes is the direct mouthpiece of Allah). I believe them that this is indeed what motivates them (at least some of them). Does this absolve them of responsibility? Ostensibly yes, it is as if God, the Holy One, or Moses commanded us to do such acts. In such a situation, wouldn't we have to do it? So what do we want from them?[3]
If such an ISIS operative were to stand trial before us, what would we claim against him? That despite his faith, responsibility for what he does rests with him. We would expect him to filter the orders and instructions he received, that is, the laws of his religion, through his personal ethical filter. The fact that he truly and authentically believes in this system does not exempt him from responsibility for his actions. But if we demand this from him, there is no way we cannot demand it from us and everyone else. Everyone thinks that their religion must be right and just, it's just that the others commit unjustified atrocities. But personal duty and responsibility mean that even if I believe, I am responsible for what I do. If my law requires me to commit atrocities, I must refuse. If I did not do it, there is no difference between me and those ISIS members. I do not intend to say that the law does indeed command committing atrocities, but only to establish the principle that a normative system, state law, instructions from a charismatic leader, as well as religious law, do not exempt a person from responsibility for what he does. Every act of mine must pass through my personal filter and not just the ideological filter in which I believe. My assumption is that a person has a filter (moral intuition) that can stop the atrocities that his religion or ideology may cause him to commit (cf. Dawkins).
The conclusion is that a pinch of "secularism" is really needed as a brake on atrocities. Faith is also a brake, but absolute faith and unqualified, unconditional commitment can be a catalyst for committing atrocities. Within each of us there must be a personal filter and a willingness to act autonomously that will prevent them. The conclusion is that humanity also has a role in braking religious faith and vice versa. The optimal dosage is to be religious but also a little "secular."[4] In fact, the duty is to be myself.
In my book True and unstable I argued that fundamentalism is perceived here as people who commit extreme atrocities in the name of religion or some ideology. But the philosophical root of fundamentalism is the real problem. I defined fundamentalism on a philosophical level as a belief that does not stand up to the test of critical thinking. The danger in such an approach is not only that it may lead to atrocities. That is true, but it is only a symptom of the real problem. A person is supposed to be responsible for his actions and not let any ideology or belief dictate them in an uncontrolled manner. The fundamental danger is that he loses his human image, which is personal autonomy. The atrocities are a result. The Nuremberg Trials, Kafr Qasem, and the arguments raised here teach that a person must pass on his decisions and actions to his personal values, that is, not to be a fundamentalist towards any system, religious, ideological, national or otherwise. This is the meaning of faith in man as a lesson from the Holocaust. Although man has not really proven himself, man is also the one who overcame the Nazis. The lesson is that we probably need to get better at this (in Syria).
Could this be a religious belief?
What I am saying here is that a person should not be completely committed to their faith and what comes from it. Our decisions should always be based on our personal views and values. This seems to be in direct contradiction to the principles of religious perception and education. Still, I think this is the main lesson I draw from the Holocaust, that each person's actions are their own responsibility, and their ideological and other commitments are no excuse for inappropriate behavior. One should not be too big a dos, and one should not abandon critical thinking.
In the religious and Jewish context, we must remember that the law as it is in our hands is not the word of God, but a human adaptation of the word of God. What is written in the Torah is a basis, or raw material, that the sages put into practice and shape in order to create the law in practice. Therefore, even if we believe that God is perfect and moral and that there can be no flaw in His instructions, this is certainly not true with regard to the law, which is the result of human action and thought. Therefore, a halachic teaching must always pass through our personal filter, and the claim that the law requires this, and certainly the claim that this or that wise and charismatic person (such and such a rabbi or an unknown great man of the generation) told me this, does not justify any action on his part. The person who does something is always responsible for what he has done and must be involved in the decision. He can of course decide that he trusts such and such a person or an unknown person or a book, but this is also his decision and he is responsible for it and its consequences.[5]
To reassure readers, I will cite a few sources here to show that this concept is not foreign to the Sages either. The Gemara in Tractate Chulin 124a narrates that Rabbi Nachman says to Ula after he hears some halacha from him in the name of Rabbi Yochanan:
God: If God had told me through Rabbi Yochanan, we would not have obeyed him.
He swore that even if he had heard such an instruction from Rabbi Yochanan, he would not have obeyed. Further down the page, a similar statement by Rabbi Ami appears, which further strengthens Rav Nachman's opinion:
God did not tell me Joshua son of Nun to call him, but we did not obey him.
We see here that the Amoraim are not willing to accept anything that does not make sense, even if it came to them directly from the mouth of Joshua ben Nun, the greatest of the prophets except Moses. If they had heard him say this, they would have determined that he was wrong and would not have accepted his words.[6]
There is reason to bring up in this context the issue of "offense for its own sake" (see Nazir 23b).[7] It is also explained there that a person who is alone in an extreme situation is supposed to make decisions alone, and in extreme cases even in violation of the law. For example, at the end of the page it is stated that the actions of Lot's daughters (who had marital relations with their father and gave birth to Ammon and Moab) were a mitzvah. The explanation is probably that they saw that the entire world was being destroyed (to their eyes. Everything they saw was destroyed), and decided to violate the severe prohibition of incest, which has no halakhic permission in any situation, and this is only because the alternative was the extinction of the entire human race. The Sages praise them because it was a "transgression for its own sake." There is no halakhic permission here, but this is what a person should do in such an extreme situation. They did this without the instruction of a rabbi or a regulation of the Sages, but with the understanding that in such an extreme case their values and ethical judgment require them to violate the law. As mentioned, they are praised by the Sages for this decision.[8]
A brief look at the binding
Our father Abraham received an instruction from God to bind his son. He does not hesitate, but rather hurries to saddle his donkey himself early in the morning and fulfill the terrible command he received. He does not reflect on or hesitate about the moral injustice and the logical contradiction of the promise that Isaac would be called a seed. On the surface, this is blind obedience, which stands in stark contrast to everything I am preaching here. Although some have interpreted that Abraham failed in the attempt to bind his son,[9] But this is an unreasonable interpretation of the verses of the Torah (the Torah itself and of course the Sages never stop telling us the opposite). So how does Abraham really accept this divine instruction? Why doesn't he show responsibility for his personal values? To sharpen the difficulty, I will mention that in the destruction of Sodom, Abraham argues with God very stubbornly and absolutely does not accept His decisions. Why does Abraham stubbornly not suspect that perhaps it is not God who is speaking to him? Perhaps this is a matter of hallucinations or some kind of deception (Descartes' deceptive demon)? After all, the order he received blatantly contradicts both morality and logic.
Kierkegaard, in his book On the Binding Strength and trembling, exalts this sacrifice, and in fact sees it as the essence of the Akida. Abraham (whom he sees as the "knight of faith," i.e. the ultimate believer) Akida his morality and his logic, thereby proving that he is a true believer. But Rabbi Kook in his siddur Visual impairmentIn his commentary on the Akida, he follows most of the interpretive path parallel to Kierkegaard, but his conclusion is quite the opposite. If Christianity places the absurd at the center of faith, Judaism places logic and understanding. God is essentially teaching Abraham that it is impossible for God to command him to do such a thing. In the eyes of the Rabbi, the lesson of the Akida is the commandment, "Do not lay your hand on the boy." If you thought God could command you to do something like that, you were wrong. It is good that you obeyed God. You have proven that you are a true and committed believer. But the lesson is that in such situations (not exactly like these. See details below) it is forbidden to obey. Abraham showed great devotion and for this he received full appreciation, but in essence, the law came to teach us the opposite lesson. That one should not do things that go against morality, values, and logic, even if there is a divine command. If such a commandment has reached us, we have probably misunderstood it.
onMy articles on the Holocaust I have maintained that a person cannot judge another person who is in a different situation. The right to make the final decision is reserved for the person who is in the situation (as in the case of Lot's daughters). No matter how comprehensive halachic knowledge I have, I do not give me the opportunity to decide for the person in the situation. If we return to the Akida, I have never experienced a divine revelation, and therefore I can offer Abraham solutions that perhaps this is not a revelation but some kind of deception. But Abraham experienced the revelation, and as a prophet who knows about revelations, he probably knows that this is clear and beyond doubt. He has no doubt that God Himself is involved here and that no moral wrong will result from this. He cannot explain this certainty to a person who has not experienced prophecy, just as a wise person cannot explain to a blind person his confidence in what he sees with his eyes. The blind person who is not endowed with the sense of sight does not understand why I am so sure and do not doubt what I see (especially since I also know that sometimes there are phenomena like Peta Morgana, and yet this does not lead me to doubt what I see).
Therefore, when a prophet receives a direct divine revelation, he can and must do what God commands him to do. He probably also has confidence that no moral wrong will result from it (and indeed, in the end, no wrong will result from the akeidah). But this is in relation to a prophet like Abraham. To us, ordinary mortals, nothing comes directly from God. For us, it is always the word of God that has been conveyed to us through the mediation and processing of people. Therefore, we must always examine what we are told with a critical eye and not automatically accept it. Even the Torah itself is not clear that it was given literally from Sinai (it probably contains later additions). Therefore, at least for someone who is not a prophet, the general instruction should be not to accept anything automatically. Despite religious belief and commitment to halakhah, things should always be passed through a personal filter, otherwise horrors may occur. This is an application of the lessons of the Holocaust in relation to religious and halakhic thought, as I have suggested here.
A little current affairs to finish
The reader will surely forgive me if I cannot restrain myself, and here too I will groan in criticism of some public statement. Miriam Naor, President of the Supreme Court, Spoke At the swearing-in ceremony for judges at the President's Office, she referred to Holocaust Remembrance Day:
"This is one of the most important lessons that we must learn from the darkest chapter in our history as a people; from the most terrible crime known to human history, the Holocaust." According to her, "One of the lessons of the Holocaust is that democracy cannot be identified with majority rule. Not every decision or law that is adopted by a majority is necessarily a democratic decision or law, as history teaches that if the power of the majority is not restrained, it may turn into tyranny.". And added: ""The dark days of the Nazi regime taught us that the rule of the majority that deprives individuals of their rights; a majority that oppresses the minority living among them – is not a democratic government."
There is a strange phenomenon here that I have become accustomed to, that senior public figures can say any banal nonsense that comes to mind and it becomes a headline and is presented as something profound and sublimely wise that deserves to be quoted and discussed in the press. In this context, I can already imagine the headline for the IDF Memorial Day: "The President said that in their death they commanded us to live," or the headline for the Independence Day that is coming upon us for the better: "The Prime Minister said that Israel will stand on its own two feet thanks to its talented sons and its extraordinary achievements, and will continue to be an extraordinary and creative democratic model, a model for the entire world" (oh, and we will also fight Iran), and many more pathetic phrases along these lines.
Well, we're used to that. But in the passage cited above, we encounter an even more fascinating phenomenon: the president of our Supreme Court (!) reveals the thinking and articulation abilities of a small child. I'll start with an exercise for the reader: How does the Holocaust prove that democracy cannot be identified with majority rule? If Nazism was acceptable to all citizens in Germany (and not just the majority) and did not affect any minority, was it then enlightened? What does this have to do with claims about majority rule in general? The problem with the Nazis was that they did not protect the rights of the minority? The problem was that they indiscriminately murdered people wherever they went. Without any connection to the rule of the majority, the minority, or the collective as a whole.
Naor probably meant to say that the Holocaust proves that majority rule cannot be identified with enlightenment and morality. But that's pretty banal, isn't it? At least when there is an evil majority, the government based on that majority will probably be evil. Does anyone see anything new here? This tautology isn't really enlightening. Indeed, one should be wary of majority rule because sometimes it too is dangerous to human rights. But it's not necessarily because of the abuse of the minority, but because this majority makes evil decisions toward external factors.
In conclusion, it is indeed important to preserve the rights of the minority and not blindly follow the decisions of the majority. This is of course true, and even banal. But there is reason to expect that the president of our Supreme Court will succeed in formulating her banal "innovations" in a reasonable and logical manner, and will not conceptually confuse democracy with morality, or majority rule with evil rule. And even if she had chosen a more successful formulation, it would still be worth sparing us these banal tautologies.
[1] I don't think it's right to say that Rabbi Amital didn't have faith in man. Sometimes I had the feeling that his faith in man was excessive. I think what he meant was to say that the Holocaust should not be blamed on G-d, but on man, and therefore if one is going to lose faith in something, it is appropriate to lose faith in man and not in G-d.
[2] According to the law, there is a law that one should be killed and not commit murder. In other words, the law imposes responsibility on a person for the act of rape that he commits, and obliges him to surrender his life even though he is not guilty of killing the other (he was forced to do so). This is precisely the difference between guilt and responsibility (and indeed the Rishonim disagree on whether when he commits a crime and kills he is punished or if he is considered a rapist and therefore, even though he committed a crime, he is not punished).
[3] Ehud Barak once said that if he were a young Palestinian, he would take part in acts of terrorism and attacks against Jews and Israelis. Everyone was outraged by him, even though he was of course right. But the connotation that came from his words that they should not be criticized is incorrect. If they do so innocently, as they see it, then perhaps they are not to blame, but the responsibility certainly lies with them.
[4] The term is a metaphor, of course. This is my religious perception itself.
[5] I will tell you an interesting personal story of mine. When I studied at the yeshiva in Bnei Brak, my rabbi was a Haredi Bnei Brak avrech, a prominent student of the legendary Rosh Yeshiva of Ponevezh, Rabbi Shmuel Rozovsky. When Rabbi Schach established Degel HaTorah, every voter was chased for fear that they would not pass the threshold. Of course, I announced in the yeshiva that I was going to vote for the FedL (simply because those around me voted differently). The next day, one of the rabbis came to me and informed me that Rabbi Schach was calling me (we had a good relationship with his family, and he probably heard about the brat from personal sources as well). I didn't go because I was afraid that he would order me to vote for Degel HaTorah and then I would surely listen to his voice (in the end, I voted for them anyway. But I probably won't repeat this nonsense again). Afterwards, I asked my rabbi what would happen if I got to heaven and they sued me for not voting for the FedL, which is the correct vote in the eyes of the Lord of the Universe? Will telling them that I received an instruction from Rabbi Schach absolve me of responsibility for the mistake? After he recovered from this bizarre question (in his eyes), he gave me an equally surprising answer: Absolutely not. Rabbi Schach probably has a higher chance of getting it right, and therefore it is worth listening to him. But the responsibility for the mistake always lies with the one who makes it. I must say that such an autonomous approach from a Haredi rabbi really surprised me. It is not for nothing that I still see him as someone who is closest to being a rabbi.
[6] It is interesting to bring here the words ofBeit Yosef According to the end of the Rambam, he wrote:
It is written at the end of the book of Erchot Chaim that a man quarrels with his friend and says to him, "I do not accept you if you were like Moses, our Lord, who would punish him for his contempt, etc." And it seems to me that this is why they said in the Gemara (Chulin 124): "If Joshua ben Nun had said from his mouth, we would not have obeyed her, and they did not say, "If Moses had said:
That is, the unlimited obligation relates only to Moses our Lord. It should be remembered that Moses only spoke the Torah, but all its interpretations were spoken by later sages. Therefore, the halakhah that we have from it is not actually from the mouth of Moses. Therefore, in practice, it is possible to not accept any halakhic statement of any kind if I am convinced that it is incorrect.
And16 There, in the Saka, he wrote that it is not even because Moses is not wrong, but because such a statement is an insult to Moses, that it says that another person could be like him, which is impossible (since the Torah states, "No one has risen like Moses"). He further expands the permission to reject such a statement even regarding Moses. What they forbade is only comparing someone to Moses.
[7] See about this inMy articles on a crime for its own sake.
[8] I will note that in the Gemara this name is not presented as part of the issue of transgression per se, but the context seems clear.
[9] I saw some such interpretations in Aviezer Ravitzky's article on this subject (I don't have it with me at the moment). He claims that there is a difference between Sephardic and Ashkenazi interpretations on this subject.
Forgive me, is a mitzvah such as killing Amalek also (God forbid) a "human interpretation" of the Sages or a "late addition" to the Torah?! Where exactly does the line cross?!
I don't know. What I do know is that the details of the mitzvah are certainly worked out by humans. After all, there are disputes (such as whether they are called peace or not). Even when the verse is not taken out of context (such as an eye for an eye, or a rebellious son and a teacher), it is the decision of the Sages not to do so. Therefore, at least de facto, these laws are a human decision.
But to decide in practice, you have to live in a situation that you feel, experience, and understand. If there were Amalekites in our world and we knew them as little Nazis, I suppose there would be room for full observance of their simple life commandments. If they were ordinary people like you and me, no one would kill them. The only question is what tools they would use to justify it and whether they would honestly admit it.
Thanks for the answer! Indeed, I need to examine things with intellectual honesty and reverence for God, as I get the impression that His Honor is trying to do.
In the year 4700
The interpretation of the Sages by the Scriptures is anchored in a deep understanding of the Scriptures and their spirit and in solid tradition. Thus, Maimonides explains that the Sages had a solid tradition from all the courts that have existed since the days of Moses that an eye for an eye is not literally taken away, but rather that the harmer is allowed to get rid of the financial ransom.
The possibility of a monetary ransom is also mentioned in the Torah regarding the obligation to kill, as it is said of a person whose ox gored a person to death: "The ox shall be stoned, and its owner shall also be put to death; if he makes atonement for it and gives a ransom for his life, according to whatever is laid on him" (Exodus 21:29-30) - and all the more so since there is room for redemption from corporal punishment. Only in the case of an accidental or intentional murderer did the Torah forbid taking a ransom to spare him from death or exile.
Even where the Torah prescribes corporal punishment, great caution is evident for the dignity of the punished. Even for someone whom the Torah calls wicked and requires that he be beaten to the extent of his wickedness, the Torah warns: "He shall not add forty lashes, lest he beat him more than these, and your brother be destroyed before your eyes" (Deuteronomy 25:3) - all the more so should one be wary of irreversible corporal punishment, for any slight deviation from the exact proportionality will result in eternal "destruction of your brother." It is therefore clear that the use of the redemption option is necessary.
Even in the most serious offenses, the Torah required extremely restrictive evidentiary laws. There is no circumstantial evidence, "at the mouth of two or three witnesses shall a matter be established," and even with witnesses, "a thorough investigation must be carried out," and there is a distinction between intentional and unintentional, in which it is commanded, "and the witness shall save him." In the case of a rebellious and misguided son, the Torah explicitly imposed a condition that neutralizes the law, requiring an unrealistic requirement, "and his father and mother shall seize him." A mother's consent to the killing of her son is clearly unreasonable, "Can a woman forget the child that she has borne?"
Even with regard to the nations of the world, the Torah maintains a balance between the need to defend and deter and the need to preserve the moral image of the people of Israel. Regarding the Egyptians who enslaved Israel with hardship and threw their children into the wilderness, the Torah commands: "You shall not abhor an Egyptian, for you were a foreigner in his land" (Deuteronomy 23:8). Even the people of Shechem, under whose protection the son of their chief committed adultery with Jacob's daughter, receive an opening for correction by circumcising their foreskins, and Jacob is very angry with his sons who broke the agreement with the people of Shechem.
Even for the seven peoples of Canaan, in which the Torah deviates from its general law of war, and commands 'not to let any soul live' - a reason is given for this: 'They will not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin.' And for this reason, the possibility of correction is already sought. After all, the severe attitude towards them is that they are the height of idolatry and the moral corruption that accompanies it 'as the deed of the land of Canaan', and if so, when they decide to abandon the ideology of evil and accept the basic principles of faith and morality, the seven commandments of the children of Noah - then they depart from the rule 'lest they make you sin.'
Even for Amalek, it is explained in the words of Samuel to Saul: "And the Lord sent you on a journey and said to you, 'You shall utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites'" (1 Samuel 15:18). This means that if they renounce the ideology of evil and hatred that their ancestors held and depart from the category of 'sinners' - the obligation to destroy and exterminate them ceases, and as the Rambam ruled, if they accepted the seven commandments of the sons of Noah upon themselves - they are not killed as was the case with Amalek.
Regarding their conversion to be like Israel, the Mekhilta states that converts from Amalek are not accepted, but the Gemara (Sanhedrin 127) mentions that "Among the sons of Haman were the children of Rabban's house, and from him was Rav Shmuel bar Shilat" (this is what Rabbi Hayman, author of Toldot Tannaim va Amoraim, maintains). Even the worst of Israel's enemies have a chance for correction. Just as Ruth, David's great-grandmother, came from Mamreb, so the Sages say that from Sennacherib came Shemaiah and Avtalion, from Sisera came Rabbi Akiva, and from Haman - the great teacher who gave his life for the education of the children of Israel, Rav Shmuel bar Shilat. The powerful energies that the grandfathers invested in destruction - are utilized by their grandchildren for correction.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
In addition and further to this, why do you define loyalty to one's moral autonomy and the like as "being a little secular," and you yourself have often claimed that this stems from the religious commandment of "and do what is right and good," etc., so why would we need a dash (or more) of secularism to prevent moral wrongs in the name of Judaism, when Judaism itself dictates this, even without the satanic "poly-normativity" that you advocate?!..
See note 4.
Regarding the responsibility of subjects to tyrannical rule, I consider it appropriate to quote two things from Aharon David Gordon:
"Who are the governments, if not the peoples themselves? Can there be a government without a people? […] The people, the power of the people, is always the ruler in any government, even in the government of tyranny. And if the government is bad, then it means that the people do not contain enough recognition or enough will. Will to achieve a better government."
(Letters from the Land of Israel, Third Letter)
In general, we see the progress of public life in the transfer of power – initially political and more recently also economic – from the hands of the individual or individuals to the many, to the public, to the people, but what does it mean, what is the importance of this transfer? They think that the very essence of enslavement is in the rule of the individual or individuals and the very essence of liberation – in the transfer of power to the people. However, it is not so simple. The people – the power of the people – has always ruled and will always rule. On the other hand, there has always been and always will be a management of the state and the political economy, whether in one form or another. The only difference is that when the people, every individual of the people, lack self-awareness, the governing power of the people is blind, and the manager or managers do with it what they want. The people – a flock and are in their hands like sheep in the hands of the shepherd. And when the people, every individual of the people, have enlightened self-awareness, their governing power will be an enlightened power, and then the management will only do its thing, carry out its orders, fulfill its aspirations. The power of enslavement is therefore not in the power of the administration, nor in the power of liberation – in taking power out of the hands of the administration: the power of enslavement is in the lack of self-awareness of the administered. The power, as it were, passes here from the outside in, into the soul of each and every individual, from the power of the external administration over individuals by the power of the multitude, according to what the blind necessity of public life requires, to the power of the individual himself, according to what enlightened self-awareness requires. And all the individual powers join one general power, the power of the people, like the joining of voices in a choir of singers. The administration is in this way nothing more than a kind of conductor of the choir, who neither governs nor instructs, but only directs the voices to their complete unity.
He says: As long as the people, each and every individual of the people, does not know how to educate themselves, to govern themselves with a supreme internal government, all rule of the people will be of no use."
(Life and the work of life in the light of opinion, laws of opinion and the war of opinions)
Very beautiful. Nice, nice.
On the first day of the month of Iyar,
In Lodz, the Judenrat received orders from the Nazis to provide them with a certain number of Jews to be sent for extermination, or else the Nazis would take all the Jews of the ghetto without distinction.
The head of the Judenrat, Chaim-Mordechai Rumkowski, believed that the Nazi demand should be met, because if they refused their demand, all the Jews of the city would be immediately exterminated. On the other hand, if they complied with their demand, the Judenrat would be able to select those to be sent for extermination and send those who would not live long anyway, the elderly, the weak, the sick, etc. That way, those who were fit to work would remain alive, and because of the benefit they would bring to the Germans, it would be worthwhile for them to leave the ghetto.
The rabbis of Lodz objected, as it is a settled law that foreigners who demand, "Give us one of you to kill," should all be killed, and that they should not surrender the few to death, for no one turns a life against a life, even a few against many. Rumkowski rejected the rabbis' words, arguing that it is a moral duty to save those who can, even at the cost of sacrificing the lives of the weak and cooperating in their killing, since that way we will save as many as possible.
And he almost succeeded. He instituted a harsh regime in Lodz, which made Lodz a place that brought economic benefits to the Germans, and even in 1944, about a year after the liquidation of all the ghettos in Poland, the Lodz ghetto still existed. But Rumkowski only almost succeeded, because when the Germans saw that the Russian army was approaching, they also liquidated the remains of the Lodz ghetto and Rumkowski among them.
So perhaps it is better to uphold 'Do not be overly righteous', and not 'seek many accounts', but to follow the guidelines of God's Torah, as interpreted by generations of righteous and wise prophets, who were exemplary in both their faith and their moral leadership?
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
It is worth noting that the consideration of sacrificing a few in order to save the many is not categorically refuted by the Torah. As the authors of the Torah of the King showed, in the case of the Noahide, a few are sacrificed in order to save the many, and as was the practice of US President Truman, who destroyed two cities in Japan, thereby bringing an immediate end to the war and saving the lives of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, who would have been killed had the war continued. Only among the Israelites was the law renewed that "one does not turn away a soul for the sake of the many."
I don't understand the claim. And did I say that rabbis are always wrong or wicked, God willing? What I said is that human control over the law is needed (the "secularism" as a brake on faith) and of course the opposite control is also needed (this is the claim that faith is a brake on the passions).
By the way, regarding the controversy you brought up, I don't know who was morally right. It's not at all simple that they were right. After all, even the Maimonides, who brings up this halacha (Yesodei HaTorah, 555) is attacked by all the bearers of the tools for the lack of logic in his ruling. The Kasam there is well-placed, and the Laham there explains that this law exists only if there is a chance that everyone (including the one who was told) will be saved, and without that the Judenrat members are right. So the logic of the Judenrat members is not at all unreasonable (assuming that their factual assessment that it will help is correct). By the way, I addressed this and explained his ruling in my article in the same vein on the separation of Siamese twins.
You yourself wrote that this is a logical law and therefore it applies to the sons of Noah. So what is your argument about the Judenrat? They acted according to the rules of reasonable morality. How do you know that the law is more moral in this? This is a halachic approach and not necessarily moral.
By the way, my conclusion in the article there is that the few are sacrificed for the sake of the many (with the consent of the few) in the laws of preserving the soul even among Jews. The law of the Yerushalmi and the Maimonides is only that which involves desecration and sanctification of the Lord, in a good way.
On the first day of the month of Iyar,
To Ramada – Greetings,
Everyone comes up with a moral argument. Rumkowski really thought he was saving the Jews of Lodz; Yigal Amir really thought he was saving the people of Israel from Rabin's dangerous policies; and Yishai Schlissel also really thinks he is like Phinehas who turned back the wrath of God from Israel.
The Torah has an answer to such arguments, because it comes from a higher and more complete perspective. It knows not only the arguments 'for', but also the decisive arguments against. When the decision is left to the Torah scholars, whose wisdom and experience of generations accompany their judgment, and in fateful matters of 'laws of life', a greater measure of 'wisdom and quorum' is certainly needed - we have a shield against immature morality.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
.
Indeed. And it is still very important not to give up on autonomy. When you write "the Torah," it has a double meaning: the Holy One or the Halacha (which is the work of human hands). It is very important to hold on to this and not let go of it either. To remind you, these sentences could also have been said by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and I am convinced that his followers embrace them with the same fervor that you embrace them. But I already wrote all of that in the post itself.
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is indeed another example of the risk of autonomy, even if he were to be ruled by the majority of the religious scholars of our generation – he would greatly improve his moral situation. All the more so if he followed the tradition of the caliphs and took figures like Rabbi Shmuel the Governor and the Maimonides as his guides and advisors 🙂
We have the Torah given by the mouth of the mighty One, both the written Torah and the foundations of the oral Torah, and they have been explained generation after generation in fidelity to the source and its spirit by sages who were exemplary in their faith, morality, and integrity. We have a stable and secure moral compass.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
Shtsel, please forgive me for what I say: Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Al-Baghdadi's followers also think exactly like you. That doesn't mean you're wrong, because I also agree with you (almost completely). But it just means that the decision that our Torah is wonderful and does not lead to moral injustice is also your decision, and by virtue of it you decided to accept the oleh. So again, you exercised your judgment and didn't give in to someone just because they said something.
In the year 1 Iyar 77
To Ramada – Greetings,
Indeed, we are both similar to al-Baghdadi. We both eat and breathe, believe and pray with her twice a day, and we both wear a headscarf and a beard, and we both believe in the righteousness of our path, etc., etc., and apparently in honor of the two of us, we ask in 'Yekom Furkan' for 'the exiled Rishis and the judges of Dabba, enough for the time being in Israel (Shtsal and Ramada) and enough for Babylon (al-Baghdadi' 🙂
But there is also a small difference: both of us (and hundreds of millions of other Muslims, and millions of believing and observant Jews) do not commit mass murders in strange ways, do not strangle or brutally rape 'everything that moves' - so before blaming their acts of cruelty on faith - it is worth looking for the source of their cruelty and murder in other directions as well.
Perhaps their murderousness lies precisely in their being an integral part of the Western world's 'ambush culture', who grew up on the media, which provides their viewers with the new and old 'entertainments' of the Red-Roman culture?
If the ancient Roman citizen delighted in gladiators being killed by wild animals, and his successor, the 'religion of love and kindness', took pleasure in seeing people burned at the stake and wreaking havoc on the sworn enemy, Jews, lepers, and witches -
The modern Roman doesn't have to bother going to the arena or the square - the media brings the horrors to him 24/7, murders, tortures and disasters, online to the television screen and smartphone. The viewers will be delighted with the sight they see and the horror-suppliers will delight in the 'fasts'.
Perhaps the culture that passionately consumes violence and horror is what invites the production of those phenomena?
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
The West's hedonism and desire for peace also have a hand in intensifying terrorism. As in the days of Munich 1938, Western leaders imagine that if they allow evil regimes to receive the 'pound of flesh' of their weak neighbors, they will leave the rich and satiated world in peace. Unfortunately, the evil are like a sea that cannot be driven out, and in the end, they will also turn their power to those who close their eyes and ears...
You keep coming back to comparisons, and that's a mistake. I didn't make any comparisons, and I didn't claim that there was a similarity to Baghdadi, or that Jews are as violent as Muslims. Beyond that, I do claim (now) that religious Jews are no less violent than secular ones, and perhaps more so. But that's really a different discussion.
What I argued is that there is a demand for personal responsibility from a person despite his beliefs for fear of atrocities. Your arguments that your (our) system is good and that no atrocities will come from it are also your own judgment, and therefore you actually chose this system and do not follow it blindly. Again, this really seems to me to be a dialogue of the deaf.
And what is 'Baghdadi's followers also think exactly like you', not a comparison?
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
In the Book of the Omer, 12:7
If Nablus and Asher had absolute rule over the inhabitants of their city, it does not appear that, in the opinion of the Rambam, they were obliged to risk rebellion against the kingdom. After all, the Rambam rules that the son of Noah is not obliged to give up his life in "slaying and not transgressing" his seven commandments; therefore, a subject was not required to rebel against his king in order to fulfill the commandments of "laws."
What seems to the judge is that Hamor was a 'president of the land' and not a 'king', a respected and dignified leader whose words were heard by the people of his city (just as Abraham was considered in Hebron to be 'president of God, you are among us'), and not an all-powerful king - and in this capacity the inhabitants of the city could have brought him to justice.
This situation is also implied by the fact that Shechem and Hamor need to convince their city's men to circumcise and are not ordered to do so by royal decree. Even Dinah's ability to go out safely to 'see the daughters of the land' shows that the regime in Shechem was completely different from the monarchical regime in Egypt and Gerar, where the king has unquestionable authority to take any available woman for himself without asking her consent.
This royal right was so ingrained that Abimelech, king of Gerar, asked God: ‘Will you kill a righteous Gentile?’ He did not realize that a king who raped a woman was not ‘righteous.’ Later, the daughter of the king of Sidon was puzzled by the strange royal laws of the Israelites, which prevented the king from taking the land of his subjects, and she tried to teach her husband that they did not ‘make a king.’ It seems, therefore, that there was no royal regime in Shechem, and therefore Dinah and her parents did not fear that she would be taken in ‘Dinah Demalchuta.’
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
Shtzel,
I will not enter into a debate here about the rule of law in Nablus. The idea is correct with and without Nablus, and that is what is important. Regarding the obligation of a subject to give up his life, I do not agree. It is not about giving up one's life purely for a mitzvah. The absence of the rule of law is a public disgrace (I elaborated on this in my article here: https://mikyab.net/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%98-%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%97%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%97%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%91%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99/)
And the words of the Manach regarding the obligation to sacrifice one's life in war for the land are well known, that there are commandments that require the obligation to sacrifice one's life not because of their importance but because this is the way to fulfill them. War requires sacrifices. Therefore, there is no permission from the Picun.
Note:
And what is 'Baghdadi's followers also think exactly like you', not a comparison?
Indeed, this is not a comparison. I was talking about the comparison you made of the behavior between Islam and Judaism (who is more murderous and who is more cruel). The comparison regarding the way of thinking is indeed a correct comparison, and I made it. Anyone who accepts any faith without criticism is similar to Al Baghdadi in this.
By the way, regarding CM Rumkowski
It is very difficult to defend the persona.
On the hedonistic and ostentatious life (in ghetto terms, and also in general terms such as the King of the Jews)
His and a close friend's
Compared to the devastating hunger and the inhuman rationing of livelihood resources.
All his beautiful words about preserving the ghetto and surrendering the weak were aimed at one goal.
Preserving Rumkowski's own life and quality
This was an opportunist in every way.
And even if any of his words were true
No less than a broken watch
I wouldn't bring them evidence for anything.
ISK Taharat AZ
To Ramada – Greetings,
Also in Dayan, the Rema (Homily 12:1) cites the words of the Rabbis that at that time it was not customary to rebuke those who committed a transgression for fear that they would hand us over to the Ensign. Even the Return of Yaakov (Part 1, Section 133) teaches that 'Certainly, in view of this, you have nothing that stands in the way of a Pikuach Nefesh.'
All the more so, since the son of Noah is incapable of preventing and saving, who is not obligated to put himself in certain danger when the chance of rescue is zero, who is very difficult to impose responsibility and obligation on to prevent, although it is certain that if he gave his life, he is among the righteous among the nations.
It turns out that instead of requiring a son of Noah to participate in murder, he must refuse even if it means risking it, for although he is not obligated to sanctify God, the idea that "May you have made your face red, and your face red" also applies to the sons of Noah - but to oblige them with devotion to prevention and sometimes to bring criminals to justice, it seems that God, blessed be He, did not come in a state of complaint with His creatures for what they do not have.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
As I explained there, I am a public. And as I explained here, the entire public has a responsibility for what is done in its name. When I murder, I have a duty to prevent it. And so when a ruler uses me to do this, I have a responsibility. And even as a citizen who stands by, but things are done in his name and by his power.
An instructive article, but one point is not clear to me – where does the line cross where rational criticism stops when a person feels certain of a direct divine revelation (as you wrote about Abraham in Aqida). It is possible that ISIS murderers do indeed experience such a revelation that commands them to commit atrocities, and if so – they are making the moral choice. Furthermore, the statement that it is impossible to judge a person who is in a different situation (which I completely accept in the context of the Holocaust) also serves as a moral cover for any crime committed out of religious fervor if the murderer truly and sincerely believes that he was commanded to do so.
There is no such limit. Every person must decide in the situation in which he finds himself. When there is a direct and certain revelation, then Abraham feels it himself and therefore his decision is to do so. Certainty is part of the decision criterion (as in the parable of the blind and the wise, where we see that it is impossible to set objective external criteria).
When a person acts in a certain way, I can still judge him for responsibility even if not guilt. It is true that his personal conviction must be taken into account. What he claims does not matter, the question is whether I was convinced. This judgment itself is also a decision of the judge who is in the situation (of judgment) and has no criteria. It seems to me that my words in the article are directed towards action according to criteria and not according to intuition. The criteria and general and theoretical considerations are important, but as a device for controlling and formulating intuition. In the end, it is the bottom line that should decide. And Mohrad Kahneman already wrote in his book Deciding Slowly and Quickly, that in most cases our intuition works better than recursive thinking. I think this is also the case in the field of morality.
You simplify the matter. Did he believe that Stalin knew what needed to be done? And he was like a father, useful here and there, his authority was not violated. There were those who were asked about Stalin's personality. He was indeed a cult, but there was a
I didn't understand the claim (and there are also typos). He is responsible for the fact that the people believed in it and followed it and must be held accountable.
Indeed, things are clever and well-formulated.
As a relatively recently discharged soldier (a year), you brought me back to many debates I had. I was a commander in a tank commanders course, and I had many discussions about the demands on the soldiers (future commanders) and our behavior toward them - should we act out of obedience, which is the basic and important quality of the army, or should we pass on the things of our filter?
My opinion was that one of the most important requirements of a soldier is his ability to be himself, with all his opinions and beliefs, and from that to know how to interpret the order according to his opinions and understanding (of course, one of the main considerations is the importance of systematization in the army and the importance of the chain of command). I got a lot of criticism for this, especially from the commanders above me, but that's how I acted and how I trained my future commanders. Not long ago, one of my commanders, who was discharged after 10 years of service, called me and told me that in his eyes I was an ideal command figure, and unfortunately he didn't have the sufficient objectivity to see things from within the system.
The point is not to praise myself, but to show that most people (if not all) agree with your words in general, but the main problem is the ability to live things 'in real time', to know how to associate things with you (just like the words of the Ramchal in the book "The Path of the Righteous" - "And even though its beginnings and foundations are already fixed in the heart of every honest person, if he does not deal with them - he will see its details and not recognize them, he will pass by them and not feel them").
In my opinion, there is still a difference between an ordinary citizen who did nothing, and someone who was a partner in the name of that system, even if he had no choice. When a person does an act on behalf of a certain company, as a representative of the government (even a government official is a representative of the government when fulfilling his duties), while it is not certain that he is guilty, he bears responsibility. On the other hand, a silent citizen who allowed things to happen without taking action, does not bear any responsibility (although it may be a morally right act, etc., but he should not be seen as responsible for what happened).
And so it is in the army - I expect every commander to pass things through the filter of his mind, with the understanding that he has responsibility for what is happening, compared to the ordinary soldier, and therefore I also disagree with Judge Binyamin Halevi - a soldier's job is to always pull the trigger in any situation without any thought or reflection on his commander's order. On the other hand, a commander, even though he also has a commander, when he receives an order, he is required to pass it through his filter, and the concept of an 'order with a black flag flying over it' does apply to him. Not every person is required to take responsibility for his own actions as part of a collective, but only a person whose action is valid is by virtue of that collective. Although a soldier can also be said to be part of the collective, but since the nature of the collective in our country is democratic, and in contrast, conscription into the army is forced, in any case a person who serves as a simple soldier, without any command and becoming 'part of the system', does not even have responsibility for his actions (therefore, Elor Azaria did nothing wrong except disobey his commander, because his job is to do the will of his commander).
I disagree with the distinction you made between a soldier and a commander. The commander is also a subordinate of his commander. They are all human beings and they are all responsible.
I also agree with your statement that there is a difference in responsibility between those who took an active part and those who did not protest or prevent. And there is still a degree of responsibility for every citizen or soldier, each according to his place, role and function.
By the way, I was a gardener too. 🙂
I am not religious, I did not study in religious schools, and it was only by chance (which is called a post by Gadi Taub) that I came to this fascinating article. I will only make three comments:
– I think that under no circumstances should any soldier or citizen be cleared of responsibility for failing to prevent crimes. A soldier is simply not supposed to be stupid, he can be more intelligent and educated than his commanders, perhaps even become a commander later. There are other mitigating circumstances, such as intelligence level, mental state, and the like, but not rank. It is clear that the level of responsibility is different between a soldier and a commander, but there is no exemption. For this reason, Elor Azaria cannot be cleared of responsibility, he is responsible for what he did, and even without receiving an order. It is reasonable to assume that the spirit of the house in which he grew up had an influence on his actions, and therefore his responsibility and even his guilt increase and even spread to his home and to everyone who influenced him.
– The distinction between responsibility and guilt is not clear to me. A person can be held responsible for positive or negative phenomena. The case of responsibility for a negative phenomenon is called guilt. I assume that the rabbi intended to distinguish between secondary responsibility and the responsibility at the root of the matter (the illegal order is the root of the matter, its execution by the commander is secondary responsibility).
– One should be careful not to give a seal of approval for refusal in cases that are not a completely clear black flag. Suppose it is clear to me that military plan A that I have been ordered to carry out is less good than military plan B. Am I allowed to act according to plan B? An example from World War II: The British cracked the German encryption and thus Churchill knew that the Germans were about to bomb the city of Coventry. He decided, and rightly so, not to evacuate it so that the Germans would not conclude that their encryption had been broken. If a local commander in Coventry heard that his city was about to be bombed and the command insisted on not evacuating it, he might decide that this was a mistake and would “save the day” and cause enormous damage to the war against the Nazis and higher losses in the continuation of the war.
Hello Nadav.
First, which post by Gadi Taub were you referring to? Is it referring to this article?
To the essence of your words. I do not agree with the identification you made between responsibility and guilt, and I think this was explained well in my words. An action that any reasonable person would do cannot be considered an action for which I am guilty. Nevertheless, I claim that I have responsibility even in such a situation. In my words, I gave the example of a small child or a foolish person who lacks criminal responsibility and discretion who takes a gun in his hand and starts shooting in all directions. Is it permissible to kill him to prevent the next murder? Of course it is. Is he guilty? A person who does not have criminal and legal responsibility cannot be guilty. After all, there is a difference between guilt and responsibility.
I did not give a seal of approval for refusal in normal situations, but only when, from the perspective of the refuser, a red line has been crossed. The examples you gave do not prove anything, since they show that a person may cause harm by his refusal and may also be mistaken in his decision. All of this is clear, and a person should still not be cleared of responsibility and therefore should consider refusal even if it ultimately turns out that he was wrong. We can all make mistakes and therefore the examples in which people were wrong or could be wrong are meaningless. This is completely clear. The argument in favor of refusal is not based on the fact that we never make mistakes. The argument is that the harm of too strong obedience (even if it leads in a particular case to the correct results) is greater.
This is the link to Gadi Taub
https://www.facebook.com/saved?collection_token=805842901%3A586254444758776%3A92
Regarding responsibility versus guilt. Your use of these words was clear, my question is whether the terminology you attributed to them is your own or the one accepted in religious discourse. In terms of terminology as I understand it, a fool or a small person is said to be not responsible for his actions, meaning he is not guilty because he does not bear responsibility. In any case, this is an issue in Hebrew only. The idea you wanted to present was very clear.
I didn't dispute the very idea of refusing to cross red lines. My argument was that what is visible doesn't always contain all the information, and therefore you can't refuse unless it's a simple case where the probability of missing information is zero.
In the year 8, Iyar, 77
If a minor does not have knowledge, then he cannot have responsibility, and since there is knowledge in the case of a minor who pursues and is killed, it can be said that this is not due to the responsibility of the pursuer, but rather due to the saving of the pursued.
And perhaps it is a minor who has knowledge, since he has knowledge to intend to kill, but because he does not have a complete mind, he is not sentenced in court because the laws of life require a warning that indicates complete awareness of the seriousness of the act, and a minor is in a state of diminished responsibility, like a willful person who was not permitted, but in any case he is willful and has sufficient intelligence to prevent him in his soul at the time of the act, since he knows that he is doing a bad deed. This is also seen from the language of the verse: "Hear from me, who pursues, there is no need for warning." A minor is considered only as someone who was not permitted, and not as lacking in knowledge. 122.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
Shtsel, I explained the difference well. The fact that the little pursuer is killed to save the pursued still requires explanation. In what way is the pursued better than the pursuer? Is the blood of the pursued a blush? Of necessity, there is a responsibility on the pursuer. It is a responsibility that falls on him to resolve the situation that he created. That is why he is killed.
And it is certainly not a question of a minor who has knowledge. After all, even a child has the status of a persecutor (if it were not for the Lord's command to persecute him). A minor who persecutes someone who is completely ignorant is still subject to the death penalty.
Suddenly, I see the need to set the human sense of justice as a standard. The world is God's creation. And what furthers these goals is moral.
You just forgot to sign:
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi
I remembered something (not a comparison of course, just an association). Mark Twain once received a letter with one word: idiot. He replied: I've received letters without a signature before, but this is the first time I've received a letter with only the signature without the content.
One claim that has come up again requires refinement. And it is the difference that you distinguish for some reason between the written Torah (at least most of it) which is from heaven, and the oath (at least most of it) which is human. You can argue about this from your heart, if you examine it according to your logic - it is possible to prove that most of the written Torah is not from the mouth of Moses (perhaps with the exception of a few verses about which it is written, albeit in the third person -: "And Moses wrote" (Journeys of the New Testament, Zichron Amalek, Sefer HaBrit, and Elohim Sefer Devarim) and even when it contradicts morality, it must be abolished. However, if you follow the faith of Israel that continues and is nourished by the days of the revelation at Sinai - then you will not be able to abolish the Oral Torah by the power of your logic either.
In your opinion, most of the Torah is not from heaven but stems from the logic of our Chazal. And by virtue of this, their decisions must be questioned when they contradict our morality. The problem is that, according to the majority and structure of the thinkers of Israel, their jurists, their rabbis, and the entire public, most of the Oral Torah, if not all, was given to Moses at Sinai. This is the simple assumption prevalent among believers. Moreover, even if you prove to them that the Chazal interpretations were mostly not spoken to Moses, they will still believe that they are an expression of the direct will that was revealed as a spirit from on high in their seminary. Therefore, in their opinion, the Torah must be seen as the fruit of a prophetic revelation that cannot be nullified by virtue of morality, just as Abraham had to bend his will from the moment he heard God in His glory and Himself say otherwise. We also hear by virtue of the Torah differently - and the difference between us and the rest of our religions was the revelation at Sinai, and therefore the certainty of our faith is absolute, unlike theirs.
If you do not accept this assumption - and it is understandable why not - your assumption - which may be lip service - will be unclear, that where the written Torah adopts an immoral command, which cannot be played with, you will act according to the immoral command!
-It's not clear why the revelation of the written Torah is worth more than the oral Torah. Just because you haven't studied that enough? It's clear in biblical study that God didn't write the Torah, and neither did Moses. So what's this "where" and "where"? The maximum you prove in the fifth notebook is that there was a revelation of something to someone in some place and time.
Conclusion: In your opinion, even when the Torah you are reading commands you to act in an immoral manner and it is a red line: you will cancel it without any problem, even without the power of the Sanhedrin, etc., simply from the clear conclusion that you cannot be sure whether this specific command was indeed given to Moses or is a later addition, while in the moral command within you you can be sure.
Apparently, if I'm not mistaken in my understanding (and I would love to understand where the mistake is), this is a conclusion that stems from your beliefs.
Gil Shalom.
This is black and white thinking, and you won't get far with it. I don't examine according to my own logic. I accept things even if they don't make sense to me (and this is because of the tradition that they were given from Sinai). But if there are things that fundamentally contradict my worldview, I will consider whether to uphold them, that is, whether they were given from the mouth of the hero. On the other hand, I accept the Toshba not because of a tradition that was given from Sinai, but because I am committed to the tradition itself. But within this framework, I allow myself to exercise critical judgment, since this is the Torah of humans.
And it is not true that, according to most of the sages of Israel, the Torah was given from Sinai. This is complete nonsense. Even when they say this, they mean a normative and not a historical statement. Anyone who is even slightly familiar with the Talmud and commentators knows that this is not true. And even if all the things were shown to Moses at Sinai (as the Torah says in its introduction), they were not passed on. After all, when Rabbi Shimon decided to exempt a work that does not require a body, it was not because of a tradition that he had received, but because it was his opinion. He renewed this law. And so on.
And there is no absolute certainty in anything. Whoever has it is either deceiving me or himself or does not know what certainty is. We are human beings, and as such, none of our conclusions are absolute. Even your conclusion that there was a Mount Sinai event and that things were said there is your conclusion, and as a human being you can be wrong.
I did not say that I would fulfill every commandment of the written Torah without question. After all, I wrote the opposite here, if only because there is no clear command that came from the mouth of the hero with its details and interpretations. This is indeed the conclusion as you wrote at the end. According to the daughters of Lot.
The rest (like the clear and unambiguous difference between Toshab"K and Toshab"P) is explained in the notebook, read it again.
Thank you for the response. I would like to understand more about the extent to which I was wrong. If I understood correctly, then you accept the Toshishak as being given mostly from Sinai because that is how tradition uses it, while the Toshishak - even tradition itself does not believe that we received it historically from Sinai, we are only normatively obligated to uphold it - and for this reason you believe that it should be upheld as long as it does not contradict logic head-on. That is how I understood your words now. If so, we must discuss the first part - why tradition is something binding. Let's say when it is supported by external reinforcement - such as the tradition that was a revelation in which God communicated His will - which also fits with logic that proves that there is a God who created the world for a purpose that is not inherent in Him (as you explained in the fifth notebook). Here we have two intersecting reasons that reach the same conclusion - that it is likely that the God who created the world for a purpose will reveal himself and indeed express his will from his world. This is indeed what He did in the revelation of Sinai and the Ten Commandments. But why should we exaggerate and claim that the entire tradition, or even most of it, is correct? It is simpler to claim that the hard core is true, and that the rest was added over the course of generations (and God forbid claiming that Moses forged it, etc.), both at the level of the Toshab"ka and the Toshab"a. In other words, that the laws of the Torah were also written by the sages of the First Temple by virtue of their understanding and development of the traditions they received from Sinai.
Jacob Milgrom, a biblical scholar, wrote: "Instead of understanding the statement "And the Lord spoke to Moses" as an assertion that the laws that would come were truly spoken from the mouth of Moses, it is possible to understand the Torah as indicating that its guiding principles are the principles of Moses, and that they originated from his mouth. Talmudic writing took a similar path. Thousands of years after the signing of the Bible, the Talmudic sages continued to explain the origin of a new law as being "the law of Moses from Sinai." And if the sages believed that some of their laws were rooted in the words of Moses, it is even more important that the God-unknown compilers of the laws of the Torah who were engaged in their work a thousand years earlier believed this. The claim "And the Lord spoke to Moses" expresses their complete confidence that the laws they proposed were not the fruit of their own spirit, but rather stemmed from the principles of Moses, and hence that they are connected to the fundamental values of the Bible" (Leviticus, Book of the Ritual, Bialik Institute, p. 3, additional notes).
Even those who believe that the Toshab'a developed over generations acknowledge the extreme views that everything was given to Moses from Sinai, and that its details from Sinai, etc., as every ordinary religious person believes from the beginning. And yet they explain this as an exaggeration and as a normative statement, etc. What is the problem with saying the same about the written Torah? If we can say that later verses were added (like the Ashkenazi Hasidim), then who decides how many and who? And if Chazal said that Moses added eight verses of his own accord - then what do I care about eight? What do I care about eight hundred? I understand that this claim is unacceptable to you not by reason of the explanation (because the seemingly logical explanation would not divide between the Toshab'a and the Toshab'a and would say that the same developmental factors and internal divisions operated in both as in any other human text) but by reason of the tradition that assumes that Moses received the written Torah from Sinai. I do not understand how this tradition is more valid than the views that the entire Toshab'a is also from Sinai? After all, in the written Torah itself, as I wrote, it never says that Moses wrote it. (And even if it did, it is no stronger tradition than another midrash.) And perhaps simply because in Shazal it is said that the Toshbach wrote Moses, and this is an undisputed opinion.
And as for what you ended up with, the reason that even against the Torah, when it conflicts with your absolute logic, then you will nullify it for the reason that "I did not say that I would fulfill every commandment of the Torah in writing without hesitation. After all, I wrote the opposite here, if only because there is no clear command that came from the mouth of the hero for its details and interpretations." I will seek to understand this with a test case: What would you do, say as a judge in the first house before whom a Torah discussion came about a poor woman who sought to save her beaten husband by grabbing the attacker's genitals. Then you read the law in the Torah (before the significant change that the Sages made to it, a much more radical change than their interpretation of an eye for an eye, and therefore, it seems to me, the Rambam brought this law specifically to explain the force of the Toshab'a (I missed where) - and it is explicitly written there for the punishment of cutting off her hand "You shall not spare your eye"!! And if you spare her, you understand that she is the one who is in order in the whole story and not the criminal who harmed him. Would you give in to her and convert the punishment to money - as the Sages did - even though it is clear that the Torah came precisely to prevent such an interpretation? (Perhaps you would give in to her because you would interpret that the severe punishment is only in the way that she harmed his fertility, such as the two men who aborted her children, or because of the proximity to the Amalekite sacrifice and the mitzvah of Yevom that deals with the sacrifice of a seed, and as is explained in the corresponding Assyrian law... Then you would say that the Torah is very strict in nullifying the fertility of a The person - "He who has an ejaculate shall not enter the assembly of the Lord" - and for this he must be punished in a shocking manner so that they will hear and see. But - in any case where the man's fertility was not harmed, we certainly will not punish the woman who behaved decently and used the only option in her power to save her husband. So - I continue and ask, what would you do if in that case his fertility was harmed? Would you cut off her hand even though it goes against morality just like not saving a Gentile on the Sabbath? Or maybe it is not so contrary?
It depends on who you ask - an objective eye will say that there is an immoral law here. Whereas a Torah-based eye will find many justifications for why in the long run it does not contradict morality. But such evidence would be present in any immoral mitzvah. Even in the case of the Amalekites. Even in the killing of children and infants of the people of Canaan (there Rabbi Chassid explained that the infants are killed because it is a security measure that if they are not killed then they will avenge the death of their parents on us when they grow up).
PS: I would like to point out to the reader that apparently the way you perceive the relationship between the Toshab"k and the Toshab"a is the opposite of Leibowitz's, who believed that we obey the Toshab"k only because the Sages in the Toshab"a decided to include the written Torah as part of the Holy Scriptures and Akmel (there is no blame in this statement, God forbid...)
thanks
In the month of Iyar 77
For age – age up to,
'And cut off the paw' Chazal taught in my book the law of saving the pursued by harming the pursuer, if possible with his limbs, and if not – with his life. Thus Maimonides writes: '… as it is said: "And cut off the paw, your eye shall not spare" – one of his shame and one of anything that involves a danger to life, one of the man who grabbed the woman. The meaning of the scripture: Anyone who thinks of striking his friend with a blow that kills him – saves the pursued by the paw of the pursuer. And if they are unable – they save him even with his life, as it is said: "Your eye shall not spare." After all, it is a positive commandment not to spare the life of the pursuer' (Hebrews 1:7-8).
The Sages did not consider amputation of the hand an immoral punishment. Regarding a person who habitually hits his friend, Rav Huna studies the verse "A strong arm will break" as it means "a strong hand will break" and "a strong hand will break" for a violent person (Sanhedrin 9:2), and the Rem of Rothenburg (and following him the Rem) learns from this how a husband who hits his wife should be deterred, but amputation of a limb for a one-time sin is certainly not a legalistic path of the Torah that came to correct, not destroy.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
The difference between the laws of the Torah and the laws of the Gentiles is also seen in the law of 'coming underground', according to which, according to the laws of the Gentiles, a thief who comes underground is executed at the entrance to the underground, while according to the laws of the Torah, the killing of a thief who comes underground is done in order to save the persecuted and not as punishment. The nations of the world believed that crime prevention would come through shocking punishment that would deter the sinner, while the Torah of mercy invested in prevention and education, in creating a society in which 'robbery and injury are uncommon'
As for the people of Canaan, I have already mentioned above that the Torah explains the reason for the exceptional severity (from the general rules of the Torah's war ethics) as "lest they make you sin," which suggests the possibility of correction when they accept the commandments of the sons of Noah and abandon the path of idolatry and moral corruption. Even with regard to Amalek, Samuel defines the commandment: "Go and completely destroy the sinners, Amalek." From this definition, it follows that if they abandon the "path of sin" and accept the commandments of the sons of Noah, they must be accepted, just as God accepted Cain and the people of Nineveh when they returned from their evil path.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
And the surest guarantee against being swept up in immoral acts in the name of the Torah is precisely the avoidance of personal interpretation in matters that are considered to be the laws of life. Knowing that this is not about "light commandments" in which there is sometimes room to rely on the opinion of a minority.
Personal law is one of the things that requires a Sanhedrin, and even in the reality that there is no Sanhedrin, one must strive for the decision of the great ones, who have the Torah's arms spread out before them, along with decades of experience and life wisdom, in the aspiration to reach the 'path agreed upon by most of the judges', and 'salvation through the great counselor.'
Best regards, S.C. Levinger.
Hi Mikhi, there is something I have not been able to understand. In the introduction to the commentary on the Mishnah, Maimonides writes, if I understood correctly, that there were commandments such as those that appear in the written Torah, as well as others that do not appear. From them emerged commandments that are considered Torah from the Shama, since they are their roots, which are interpreted in the dimensions that the Torah requires, as well as reservations to them that the sages brought according to the command of God.
Do you also believe that?
Hello Or.
I didn't understand what is written here. Were there commandments from which came commandments that are considered to be Torah? Are their roots explained in the measures that the Torah requires? Are there exceptions that sages brought (!) according to the commandments? Please write more detailed and clear.
The Mishnah in the Instructions opens thus:
"If a court ordered a violation of one of the commandments stated in the Torah, and the individual went and did something unintentionally according to them – whether they did it and did it with them, whether they did it and did it after them, or whether they did not do it and did it – then this is exempt, because it was decided in court."
Would it be correct to extend this principle to a citizen who commits injustices under his rule? (Assuming that the government is a moral government according to the citizen's view).
A study of the Gemara there will show you that even in the Bible this is not a simple law (see there on the law "He erred in the mitzvah of listening to the words of the sages"). But in a moral context (contrary to halacha) the matter is accessible to every person and his discretion, and therefore the responsibility lies with him. The fact that he assumes that the government is moral does not replace his discretion. It is possible that there is a situation in which the facts are unknown to him and he assumes that the government is acting lawfully. It seems to me that this does absolve him.
Why is this not accessible in the halakhic context? After all, if someone who is worthy of teaching has acted according to the court's ruling, his judgment is different from someone who is not worthy of teaching. Ostensibly, everyone can study Torah and reach the state of being worthy of teaching, it's just that it's difficult. Therefore, it seems to be said that the reasonable person is unable to decide on certain matters because of the high level of complexity, and therefore he delegates the responsibility of the decision to someone he thinks is worthy of it, and thus the responsibility is supposed to fall from him (also in the moral context).
Everyone can also study medicine, and as long as they haven't studied, it's still reasonable to rely on an expert. The same goes for Halacha, which is a professional field that is refined by study. But morality doesn't need to be studied. Everyone has a moral intuition, and therefore is responsible for their own actions. Perhaps with the exception of particularly complicated issues. In any case, an act that they themselves understand is immoral, I don't think relying on the government will exempt them from responsibility.
In the year 14th of Iyar 77
Precisely because everyone has a 'moral intuition', there are many disputes. The reason for this, according to the Court, is that in every moral question there are opposing considerations, both of which are right, and the decision between them can only determine who is more right. Who says that the personal decision of the individual is superior to the public decision, which is also based on moral consideration?
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
No one said I was necessarily right, but the responsibility for my actions lies solely with me. That's what I'm saying here in the post.
Beyond that, it is clear that when there are moral nuances here or there, no one holds the person responsible when they are wrong. This is about someone who does a clearly immoral act. Such a person cannot absolve himself of responsibility by claiming that the government was loyal to him and therefore he did the act.
I went through the post,
There is ambiguity or deliberate evasion here, while the principle of personal responsibility is simple and self-evident (even without a lesson from the Holocaust..)
The central question is precisely the limits within which one society can enforce its judgment on another society with a different scale of values, and in today's reality, can an Iranian judge who sentences gays to death be tried in Europe?
I think the answer will be negative (under certain conditions). The comparison to ISIS is, of course, delusional and unfounded demagoguery.
I'm surprised you didn't choose to honestly deal with the point of whether he thinks there is a place for corporal punishment in general and religious punishment in particular, in cases where the majority of society has chosen and agreed to it. This question has nothing to do with the lessons of the Holocaust or ISIS.
After being accused of deliberate evasion (?), dishonesty, demagogy (of course!), and absurd and irrelevant comparisons, I take comfort in the fact that at least I am not guilty of Arlozorov's murder. That's something too.
All you have to do is explain your question, and then maybe I'll try to respond (in a demagogic, unrelated and evasive manner, of course).
In the year 22, Iyar 77
After we accepted the opinion of Ramda and determined that a person must take responsibility for preventing state crimes – we concluded by determining that everyone was obliged to participate in and strengthen the economic boycott imposed on Nazi Germany due to the persecution of the Jews,
In this way, we determined that Arlozorov did not act properly in reaching an agreement with Nazi Germany according to which the property of the Jews who fled Germany would be transferred through goods exported from Germany. In this way, Arlozorov did indeed save the property of the Jews, but he undermined a boycott intended to change Germany's policy. In essence, we agreed with Achimeir's claims against Arlozorov.
Although we cannot be accused of the murder itself, because it is very possible that it was committed on a criminal basis, unrelated to Ahimeir's accusations, even though they were stated very bluntly.
I personally prefer to remain of the opinion that it is unclear to what extent a person is obligated to act against state actions that they almost certainly have no power to change, and there is ample room for Arlozorov's claim that it would have been better to bring about a certain rescue of the refugees' property, even at the cost of undermining the economic boycott of Germany, whose chances of preventing anything were quite dubious.
Best regards, S.C. Levinger
Shtzel, I think this is where the records for the number of mistakes per sentence/word in a message on the site were broken. Accept my best wishes.
See Wikipedia entry 'Transfer Agreement' and the links there.
Best regards, Shtsal
The original response was written as a continuation of a conversation between friends about the post and was not intended to be sent in its original wording and format.
As for the substance of things, the comment was of course regarding the application of personal responsibility to religious law - in light of the lessons of the Holocaust (or the Nuremberg Trials) and the atrocities of ISIS, when it is clear that the significant aspect of this (in contrast) are the corporal punishments that exist in Jewish law (we don't really use blood for matzah).
But in this regard, the Nuremberg Trials or the ISIS Trials, if they were to take place, have no meaning, because a society that accepts religious laws will be able to implement them, even to the displeasure of another society (the West, for example), and even if the responsibility for this falls on its shoulders, it is only a responsibility between a person and himself - and the place,
And one society cannot judge a society with a different culture, just as an American judge who sentences a murderer to death, or a Filipino who kills a drug dealer, or an Iranian who hangs gays, cannot be held responsible for the same responsibility - as opposed to systematic genocide or the imposition of laws and punishment against the will of the people.
So if we honestly set out to discuss this point of corporal punishment, we will not be allowed, nor will it help us, to conduct a discussion about the Nuremberg Trials.
And if you believe that there is a conflict in this matter between the halakha and your general perception, try to explain how this is reconciled - the solution of a sin for its own sake cannot be a tool for determining a general position on the subject,
Regarding the murder of Arlozorov, with whom Stavsky was accused, it is possible that you could also be accused.
Well, as you can understand from my words in the article, I disagree with you. An Iranian judge in Europe can certainly be accused. The question is not the will of the people but the degree of morality of the act. And that is the crux of my point, that public consent is no measure of anything when it comes to atrocities. For my part, let the whole world agree on this, there is no shred of legitimacy for moral atrocities (at most extenuating circumstances). You are apparently a relativist, and this is where our disagreement lies. As I explained in my book Truth and Unstable, relativism is nothing but the other side of fundamentalism, and it is no wonder that it cannot cope with it.
And another side note: My words really don't apply specifically to corporal punishment. I don't know where to get that from.
Indeed, if you accused me of all of the above, there is no problem in accusing Stavsky of murdering Arlozorov…
I am not a lawyer or an expert in international law, but in the original jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice according to the Hague and Rome Statutes, there is no clause that allows such a claim, to my understanding.
It is clear that sections have been drafted that deal with "absolute" atrocities, genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity that are interpreted as valid against systematic oppression, but even according to your argument, it is likely that there is a threshold that determines the ability of international intervention (is the execution of drug traffickers also subject to jurisdiction?)
In any case, this is not the core of the debate. You rightly claim that public consent is not a measure, but the Nuremberg trials are also just public consent! And what if a handful of jurists decided that it was not possible to judge, and that the absolute moral atrocities would be tolerated?
And even if the powers of judgment are expanded, the decision of officials or jurists is not in itself sufficient to establish a moral determination (even if they have the power to enforce it). It is therefore clear that my conscience requires absolute moral values, but what will increase or decrease if someone or some of them decide that it is or is not possible to judge according to them? What lesson can we learn from this? And how does this inform my steps regarding the conflict between faith and this conscience?
Therefore, when we discuss the contradiction between the Torah laws that oblige us to certain actions, and the general values that negate such actions, the discussion should be about how to resolve the paradox, and how we apply the entirety of the values, and not about the question or assumption of what officials and jurists somewhere have decided or will decide.
Right now, it seems that the current debate boils down to that famous joke about two debaters who came to the rabbi and each one was told by the rabbi that he was right about the question of the sun, could it be? The rabbi replied, "You are right too... and we also accept the Torah as true Torah and the general values as true as well, and the question being asked - could it be? is also true, of course."
Although you did not write in the parousia that the applied discussion is about corporal punishment, it seems that this is the white elephant in the background, being the main and perhaps the only basis for the aforementioned conflict.
My "diagnosis" as a relativist is rather hasty, and I am considering appealing... regarding your "accusation"
I will expand on what I started at the beginning of the previous message. The first message was written as a continuation of the oral argument - and according to the debater, it was edited and converted as a response to an article not by the writer.
If the announcement helped clarify the matter, that's good, and if not, I'll just settle for the agreement we've already reached regarding Stasbeky's "guilt."
Thanks for the wonderful article.
The intriguing thing that remains from the article is what is the name of that autonomous rabbi from Bnei Brak? Could you please reveal his name to us?
I don't know if he wants his name published.
One guess, please?
Rabbi Berl…
It seems to me that 'the things he says there, he doesn't think here...'
An instructive post. I am also intrigued by the figure of the autonomous Haredi rabbi. If it is possible…
Because 'perhaps' he doesn't want his name published... If possible, of course, confirm it to me by email. That way, the publication will only be for his family members...
To Ramada – Greetings,
I'm curious if 'my father' is 'Hazi' and what his full name is?
Since 'perhaps' he does not want his name published - I would be grateful to the Director of Public Prosecutions if he would confirm to me by email the full name of 'Avi' and/or 'Hezi'.
In the blessing, 'May this house be, as my father Jose prophesied,'
S. Keren, the nosy librarian, sticking his nose in here and there 🙂
And Hillel already said: 'You shall not serve your friend.' Kant called this the 'categorical imperative'...
The Rabbi wrote in note 2 that there is a side in the first that even if someone commits (chooses) the serious offense, it is considered rape. I would appreciate it if the Rabbi could explain this side to me.
What's the problem? If he vowed to give his life, then he is a rapist, even if the law requires him to do so. Therefore, in such a situation, he is held responsible but not guilty.
I am talking about a case where no responsibility is imposed at all.
In the event that he is forced to either die or commit a transgression (one of the seven), the Torah requires him to die, but he chose to commit a transgression and live.
Now, some believe (Hamdat Shlomo Orach, 17th paragraph (I think) regarding the Toss in the Sanhedrin to:) that even if he transgressed, even though he committed an offense that warrants death, we will not impose any death penalty. And I wanted to know why, since he ultimately chose to commit an offense, why is he considered a coercion (after all, he could have chosen not to commit an offense and die)? (I thought this is what the rabbi wrote in parentheses, even though I wouldn't be happy for the answer).
I don't know what to add. I have no choice but to go back again. The question of guilt and the question of responsibility are different questions. If he acts under threat to his life, he is a rapist. Even though he violated the Torah's teaching that commanded ignoring rape. What is not clear here? The argument is that it is impossible to punish a person who acted under threat to his life, and yet he can be demanded to overcome and yet not do so and surrender his life.
By the way, this is what Rambam explains in the Basic Torah. There is no need to reach for the latter ones or others.
I don't care if you repeat yourself. I care if we talk about the same thing. If you feel like you're repeating yourself, I care if you answer.
You wrote that a person who acts under threat of his life is a rapist and that it is impossible to punish a person who acts under threat of his life.
This is exactly my question (not about the distinctions between guilt and responsibility), what is the difference between a death threat and a non-death threat (either murder or bring 100 NIS – if he commits murder, he is also charged with guilt (therefore he is punished after he commits murder, unlike a person who is only responsible, so he committed a serious act that he should not have done from the start, but we will not punish him later))
Sanhedrin Witness: They say that this is an explanation that a person is not obligated to choose to die (and therefore it follows that if he transgressed the commandment to kill and not to transgress, he will not be punished, although he has blasphemed the name of God) (He will be killed and not to transgress because there is still a serious act being committed here) and therefore my question is what is the explanation, why is he not obligated to give up his life but is obligated to give up his wealth (is it because he is obligated to live or because for some reason dying is not an option or something else).
What is the question? Even a threat that I will dance in front of you and you will have to endure it is rape? Don't you understand the difference between financial rape and personal rape? (In financial rape, it is a dispute over conditions in the inscriptions)
I can't understand what the discussion is here.
Exactly, why isn't the death option an option? Because it's such a difficult choice? Because his life is worth more than a mitzvah?
Why, after he chose not to die and had the option to choose differently (even if he were not required to die, the very fact that there are two options, the Torah simply says which option is the correct one) do we say that he was forced to make the first choice? He was not forced, he could have chosen to die.
He could, but a reasonable person doesn't do that. I think you're just insisting. That's completely understandable.
It's a bit hard for me not to look at what the case really is and what should be done, and accordingly define a case as rape. A reasonable person gives up all of his wealth for a mitzvah (and certainly when it's dear to him as much as his own body)? I don't care if it's hard for him, it didn't turn into rape (Rema"a O"ch 5556, 1. Yo"d 197, 1). Maybe I'm being stubborn, but only because I don't understand.
Anyway, thanks for your time.
A person does not give up all of his wealth, but is required to give it up. What is the rabuta? In the three gravest cases, he is also required to give up a soul. And yet, he is considered forced if he has committed a crime.
My mistake, I want to ask about "relaxing" if it is from what a reasonable person would do (and therefore is considered coerced if committed) then why does it have to come in the form of external rape (being forced) after all, even if he is about to die due to an illness (whose cure is the Ashirah tree/another offense) there is no chance that he will simply choose to die. (The question is based on the assumption that a person who is cured in Z is punished afterwards, I don't remember where it is written).
There is no such thing as a cure. You are referring to the division of the Rambam in the fifth chapter of the Basic Torah, 56 (which also appears in one of the first responsa in the Shabazz). This requires other divisions, and so on. You can search for my written lesson on the subject here (I think in the lessons for Passover).
thanks.