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Moral Judgment of a Person According to His Own Approach (Column 372)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

A few days ago a question was raised on the site about the moral judgment of the Nazis. In the course of the discussion, the question arose regarding the moral judgment we pass on a person’s (or a group’s) behavior: should it be made according to that person’s own approach, or according to the judge’s approach (according to mine)? For some reason I thought I had already addressed this more than once, but a search on the site did not turn up a systematic discussion. I told myself that this lacuna ought to be filled as soon as possible (after all, the whole world is waiting to finally hear the truth about how one should properly judge behaviors and people). The time has come to deal with this important, painful, and murky topic, and perhaps this column will also be a natural place for my revered Rabbi Metolginus, may he live long, to offer his reflections and critiques on the subject (in that thread they surfaced only in brief).

The Nazis

Let us begin by honoring our host and go straight to Godwin’s Law. The bluntest example to discuss, of course, is the Nazis, may their names be blotted out. Seemingly it is obvious to any sensible person that they were utterly wicked, and that every enlightened person is commanded to eradicate them from the face of the earth—preferably while they’re still small. Why is it so clear in that case that there is no room to judge them by their own approach? After all, unlike many other criminals who act out of a momentary impulse, the Nazis did have a coherent system they followed (and of course they were not the only ones. Even “the Jordanians had a method,” though this is not the place).

The assumption is that in the Nazi case it is patently clear that we are dealing with a perverse system. A racist conception that permits and even mandates killing living beings of various kinds (Jews, homosexuals—“as per the Torah,” of course—Roma, the disabled, regime opponents, communists, and more) is illegitimate; therefore it is not reasonable to judge those who hold it by their own lights. On the contrary, holding such a twisted system is itself a moral blemish. From this perspective, the Nazis were systematic felons rather than offenders driven by momentary urges, and that is a consideration for stringency, not leniency. Moreover, if we judge the Nazis by their own approach, it would follow that we cannot judge anyone strictly. Every person who does something acts according to his own approach. True, one could (in principle) conclude that we really cannot judge people at all; but anyone unwilling to accept that conclusion—i.e., anyone who believes in morality and its significance—cannot forgo moral judgment of people and behaviors. For such a person, it would seem the option of judging people by their own approach is off the table. One might, at most, treat the existence of a “system” as a mitigating circumstance (“we followed orders”), but certainly not as a full exoneration. And even seeing a “system” as a mitigating circumstance is not simple; intuitively, it argues for stringency, as I already noted.

But I nonetheless disagree with all this. In my view, every person, or group—including the Nazis—should be judged by their own approach, however perverse, and not by mine. To clarify, let me state already here that this has nothing whatsoever to do with moral relativism. Before getting into that, I must preface with a necessary note about moral judgment in general.

Judgment vs. Self-Defense

When I judge a person or a person’s act morally, I must decide whether he is a good person or not, or whether he acted well or not. The implications of that judgment can be varied. Sometimes there are legal consequences (imposing punishment, as in the case of the Nazis). Sometimes I want to know whether I must defend myself against him, or simply whether I want to have any dealings with him (friendship, neighborhood, diplomatic relations, and the like). And sometimes I judge a person only to learn how I should behave (and how not to). I may ask whether I want my children to associate with him (an educational consideration), and so on.

For my purposes here, the goal of the judgment doesn’t matter, but its character does. If I want to know whether I should defend myself against him or deter him (or others) from such actions in the future, that is a technical consideration, and the moral judgment itself is marginal. In such cases, I am not truly judging a person or an act morally; I am simply deciding whether I want the act to occur or not. That decision can be made for reasons of convenience, self-protection from threats, and the like. I can imprison or kill a murderer because I do not want him to kill me. Such a decision does not necessarily involve a moral judgment of his actions. It could be that the person is a dangerous robot that has gone out of control and poses a threat to me; therefore I will destroy it or lock it away. That does not imply that, in my view, that robot deserves punishment because it acts immorally. In such a case I am not judging; I am defending myself. The same applies to a human being. One can decide to imprison someone without determining that he acted immorally—simply because he is dangerous and I must protect myself. I am not dealing here with that kind of “judgment,” for it is not truly a moral judgment of the person or the act. Our topic here is judging the person and his deeds.

Judgments aimed at self-defense or deterrence—even if I must reach conclusions about what is fitting or unfitting—are certainly made according to my approach and not the “offender’s.” I must determine whether the act is dangerous and should be prevented; therefore, here, my own approach is obviously decisive. The same holds for deciding whether I want my son to share a classroom with him. I want my son to grow up with proper values and to keep away from a bad neighbor so as not to be influenced. Here, the evil of that prospective neighbor is determined by my approach. After all, I am deciding how I want my son educated; I am not judging that person in himself. As stated, my discussion in this column is not about such judgments. Here I deal with judging a person or act to determine whether it was moral or not. I want to determine whether he is a good or bad person. One might ask: to what end—why do I need to judge people at all, beyond practical questions (like self-defense and education)? But the fact is that we do judge, and I seek to examine the nature of such judgment.

Judging the Person or the Act

Even when I judge the person, if in my approach murder is forbidden, then a murderer is a bad person. Even if in his own approach there is no prohibition of murder—he is a bad person. In fact, if he believes there is no prohibition of murder, he is even worse: he holds a bad ideology, and is not merely someone who stumbled. So where can one even hesitate about whether to judge a person according to his own approach?

It is no accident that up to now I spoke about judging a person and judging an act. The act of murder is certainly a bad act, even if the murderer thinks it is good. But when I ask whether the person is bad, here one can argue that the judgment should be made according to his own approach. The distinction between judging the person and judging the act could be interpreted as distinguishing between judging a specific act and judging a person’s overall conduct (across his life). That is not what I mean. Here I intend to distinguish between two kinds of judgment of the very same act: judgment of the act (the cheftza) and judgment of the person who performed it at that moment (the gavra). My claim is that I can decide that the act of the Nazi who murdered a Roma person is bad (the cheftza of the act is bad), but if the Nazi truly believed that he was doing a good deed—then he is not a bad person, and did not act as a bad person (the gavra was not bad). In such a case, I claim it is proper to judge the person as mistaken but not wicked. My contention is that a person’s wickedness is determined according to his own approach.

Consider an extreme example: Reuven sees Shimon running with a rifle and thinks Shimon is firing in all directions and endangering people. Reuven shoots Shimon dead under the law of a “pursuer.” An act that unquestionably demands moral evaluation. It then turns out he was mistaken, and Shimon was actually using a device that disperses a pleasant scent in the area. The act Reuven committed was, of course, bad—he killed an innocent person. But it is very hard to say that Reuven behaved as a bad person. On the contrary, he did what he was obligated to do from his point of view. In this case, the act is bad (in the cheftza) but Reuven (the gavra) is mistaken, not wicked. This is a case of a factual mistake. I contend that a mistake in an ethical worldview is similar in this respect to a factual mistake. A Nazi who truly and sincerely believes that Jews are harmful and must be exterminated from the face of the earth is not a bad person but mistaken—assuming he truly believes this. From his perspective, the moral imperative is to kill all Jews. In the Radbaz’s terminology, one would say he “erred in his reasoning,” and is therefore coerced. Note well that I fully agree that the act itself is manifestly evil, and that the ethical position that led to it is clearly evil (the generalization that all Jews are dangerous and malicious). My claim is that the person who did it is not a bad person. The reasoning is very simple: if he truly believes all this, what do we expect him to do—act in a way that seems bad to him?

My principal claim here concerns the judgment of the gavra as I have defined it, and only that. I argue that such judgment should always be made according to his approach, not mine.

Weakness of the Will

Here the key question arises: who, then, is a person it is proper to judge as a bad person (in the gavra)? Seemingly everyone believes in what he is doing (even if his values are bad in my view), and if we judge him by his own approach, he is never a bad person.

Not so. In many cases we act in ways that—even according to us—are bad. A religious believer sometimes commits religious transgressions even though he himself thinks the act is wrong. A person committed to morality commits moral transgressions even though he knows the deeds are bad. These are phenomena of weakness of the will (see Columns 172173), and in religious terminology we often refer to them as the overpowering of the evil inclination. Such a person is one it is proper to regard as wicked also in the gavra, not only in the cheftza.

Consider someone who steals another person’s property. The thief believes in people’s right to property and in the prohibition against violating it (“Do not steal”), but he lacks money, or simply has an urge to harm another or to gain more money. How should we judge such a person? I see him as a bad person, since the way he acted is bad even according to his own approach. True, in his value hierarchy, the desire to make money stands above respecting others’ property rights; thus, ostensibly, he did what is right according to his approach. But it is clear that his desire to make money is not a value—it is an urge or an interest. One who places an interest or urge above his values is a bad person. When I speak of judging a person by his own approach, I refer to someone for whom, according to his system of values, there is nothing wrong in failing to respect others’ property rights. He is not acting out of urge or self-interest against morality; rather, his set of moral rules differs from mine. If I were persuaded that this is indeed the case, I would judge him favorably (in the gavra), even though his act is, of course, bad.

It seems to me that what usually happens is that we simply find it hard to believe that a person truly holds such a morally preposterous system. When we see someone stealing from someone or murdering someone, we assume that he too understands the act is bad, but his urge overpowered him and he succumbed to desire or interest. Therefore we view him as a bad (immoral) person. But if Elijah the Prophet came and told us that, in fact, the prohibitions of theft or murder are not recognized in his value system, we would have to judge him differently. This also applies to the Nazis. In my opinion, we judge them unfavorably only because it is clear to us that it is impossible that people truly believe in such a morally distorted system. We assess that they too understand that murder is bad, but their desire overpowered them. If that is the case, then indeed they should be judged unfavorably. But if, hypothetically, I were convinced that they truly and sincerely believe that this is how one ought to act, I would have to relate to the gavra differently. My general claim (that wickedness must be determined according to the “wicked person’s” own approach) is to be taken as a theoretical one. Practically, such a judgment depends on whether I believe the person truly holds a value system so different from mine.

Factual Error vs. Value Error

Let us return to the Nazis. I explained that if they acted in a way that—even by their own account—was morally bad (for example, out of lust or fear), then they should be judged culpable. In that case, by their own lights they are bad people (in the gavra). But there are two other modes of action that can lead to Nazi-like behavior: (1) a factual error—for example, suppose they thought the Jews were plotting to take over the world and destroy everyone else; (2) a value error—they truly and sincerely believe that killing Jews is good (even if the Jews are not plotting to take over the world; akin to “you shall purge the evil from your midst”).

Both of these are claims for leniency, since coercion regarding beliefs is coercion in every respect (see, for example, Responsa Radbaz IV §187, 1158), yet there is still a practical difference between these two possibilities:

  • In possibility (1), given their factual premise, they are right in the stance that the Jews should be exterminated. What is more, if we had reached that conclusion, we would probably have done the same. The value system that one should eradicate evil is correct, and it is not unique to the Nazis. In such a case, their error was a factual one, since the Jews were not actually plotting to take over the world.
  • By contrast, in possibility (2) we are dealing with a value error. They act on the basis of an incorrect moral system; that is, they are mistaken regarding the prohibition of murder (again, in this possibility I assume they truly and sincerely believe this, and it is not the counsel of desire). There is a difference in how we treat these two possibilities.

Above I noted that when it comes to a value error, we have a (not always justified) tendency to think this cannot be. I do not believe a Nazi who claims he truly thought there is nothing wrong in murdering a Jew or a Roma. Therefore I judge him unfavorably. But if, theoretically, he truly believed it, and if I were convinced that this is indeed the case (if Elijah came and told me so), then I would indeed judge him favorably. By contrast, in a case of misapprehending reality, it is certainly possible that this is really what the person thinks. After all, in principle it is possible that there is a group of people plotting to take over the world. In such a case, it is easier and more reasonable to accept the claim that they made a factual mistake, and therefore to judge them favorably. Here I would not even say I judge them favorably; rather, I see them as people acting with dedication on behalf of morality. They invested effort and resources into cleansing the world of a group that seeks to destroy it. Not only do they not deserve condemnation; they deserve appreciation. The fact that they erred in assessing reality changes the judgment of the act itself, of course, but it does not change the judgment of the gavra.

The Meaning of Coercion

Usually, when a claim of coercion (ones) is raised regarding a person’s act (the exemption under “you shall do nothing to the girl”), it is a claim intended to exempt him from responsibility for his actions. If he acted under coercion, his responsibility is reduced, if it exists at all. This claim does not arise at the stage of determining the verdict (guilty or not), but when we reach sentencing (the punishment). My claim here is that the coercion claim also has a role in the discussion of the verdict itself. The very question whether the person is a wrongdoer (in the gavra) depends on his conception of reality and his moral system. That is, not only are errors in understanding reality and in the moral system claims of coercion; they also affect the very seeing of the person as a wrongdoer, not merely the degree of his responsibility (and the punishment he deserves). The claim is that he deserves no punishment at all—not that he is a wrongdoer exempt from punishment.

Irresponsibility in Forming One’s View of Reality or Values

It is, however, possible to level a charge against a person who errs in his value conceptions or his view of reality, if the formation of those conceptions was done irresponsibly and without sufficient thought. If a Nazi were to tell us that, in his view, Jews are plotting to destroy the world, we could ask him what evidence led him to that conclusion. Especially if he takes such drastic measures against them, he is obligated to examine thoroughly the factual and value underpinnings on which those measures are based and which justify them. Irresponsibility in forming a moral system and a view of reality is also grounds for a moral claim.

There are situations where it is harder to establish blame, when a person grows up and lives within a social atmosphere in which those assessments of reality and moral conceptions are taken for granted. Think of a Haredi or religious person who lives within a conception in which the gentile is a kind of animal who behaves like an animal and never acts for moral reasons. This is indeed nonsense that does not withstand factual scrutiny, but we know the religious apologetics and pilpul that harmonize the dogmas (with a cholem…) against any reality whatsoever. Even if he sees a gentile acting properly, he can explain that the behavior is intended to achieve some interest, to gain honor, to look good, and so forth. And a Jew who does not act properly—well, of course, that is the “leaven in the dough” (whatever that odd statement may mean). The gates of excuses are never closed.

How far can we find a person like that blameworthy—for behaving toward a gentile according to the absurd assumptions on which he was raised and which everyone he respects keeps pumping into him? The matters are presented to him as a direct instruction from the Creator, and who is he—“a worm and not a man”—to disagree?! This is a very difficult question. True, such a person is not exercising his critical faculties regarding what is presented to him as “principles of faith,” but it seems that almost any reasonable person in such a situation would act this way. Very few permit themselves to be critical of foundational positions accepted in the society in which they live (this is one of the main aims of this site).

The same applies to societies that are, ostensibly, less closed. Readers of Haaretz are considered a more open community than the Haredi community. I am not at all sure that is correct, but setting that aside, we must think about someone who lives within such a cultural environment and is nourished by the processed information it presents to its believers. Is it reasonable to demand that he exercise a critical sense and recognize that these folks are talking nonsense? I hear intelligent people from that camp who say such nonsense that one’s ears should be shielded from hearing it. The same holds, of course, for the Right. The same holds for the dispute around the LGBTQ community and its supporters or opponents. Here too, on both sides there are categorical judgments, and people are unwilling to judge their opponents according to the opponents’ own approach.

Again, in most of these cases we are not dealing with horrific deeds (although a murder at a pride parade, or persecuting people on the basis of sexual orientation, are of course grave acts; see below on extreme cases), yet there is certainly judgment being made by both sides—even in the gavra. We not only disagree with the other side’s views and actions (in the cheftza); we also regard them as wicked. Right-wingers are convinced left-wingers are wicked, and vice versa. The same for liberals and conservatives. But if we judge them by their own approach, the picture changes. Even if we do not change our view of the opinions and actions themselves (in the cheftza), the judgment of the gavra certainly changes. Again, there is room to examine how they formed their positions (both value and factual), the logic and evidence underlying the stances they express, and still it is hard to see full culpability here. A reasonable person who grew up in such an atmosphere will likely think that way.

I think that in these cases we tend not to believe that people truly hold these positions. We tend to see them as wicked who adopt such a stance for various dubious reasons (what reasons?). But I think that is merely our bias. I am inclined to think that usually these people do indeed believe the positions they express. At most one could say these are foolish positions, and that they did not examine them responsibly and properly. But there is, at least, diminished culpability here.

I will note that the degree of blame for irresponsibly examining values and facts depends on the severity of the outcomes. If the outcome is horrific, then there is a stronger demand to examine the counter-arguments thoroughly before forming a position, and therefore culpability in such cases is graver. This brings me to especially extreme groups, such as ISIS (or the Nazis).

Extreme Cases

It is relatively easy for us to require judging the gavra according to his own approach in questions of Left and Right, since the outcomes are not horrific. And in general, Haredim usually do not commit horrific acts against gentiles or secular people (if only because they lack the power and ability to do so). But what would you say about the disciples of al-Baghdadi of ISIS? They grow up on conceptions that the West and the infidels are evil, and it is a commandment to exterminate them. Thus says God Himself through His prophet al-Baghdadi. Do we expect a simple, God-fearing person, whose spiritual leaders instruct him to decapitate a Western journalist, to exercise his critical faculties and refuse to do so? Perhaps I do expect that, but how realistic is the expectation? It is easy to agree that there is no full personal responsibility here. He truly and sincerely believes that beheading infidels corrects the world and leads it toward its telos. We must remember that the matters are presented to him as the very word of God, and we cannot comprehend or critique them.

True, we can demand of him to examine his stance and the arguments of his leaders, and certainly to distinguish between the word of God and the interpretations those words receive from human mouths. I repeat again and again in the Trilogy and here: almost nothing in the Torah that reached us is the direct word of God untouched by an interpreter’s hand. Almost everything is human handiwork; therefore every halakhah we have, biblical or rabbinic, can be mistaken. And even if there are considerations of authority (we lack the authority to determine that halakhot established by the Sanhedrin or the Talmud are mistaken), it is nevertheless clear that I would not kill on the basis of a mistaken halakhah just because of a lack of authority.

In practice, we all know this is a very demanding requirement. Go and see, in the moderate religious world, how willing people are to examine foundational assumptions, and how they defend religious dogmas with all their might—even when it turns out to be utter nonsense.

Personal Responsibility

I will conclude with a story. A year or two ago I was invited to a gathering of religious leaders at Ort Ramla High School, which serves an Arab population from Lod and Ramla. Religious leaders from all accessible religions were invited: Christian priests, Muslim and Druze imams, and Jewish rabbis. We all spoke before the students in various classes, then they asked questions and a short discussion followed.

Incidentally, I cannot refrain from expressing my impression of the event. It was most impressive. I do not think I would encounter as interested, respectful, and polite an attitude in Jewish schools as I saw among the students there. It was quite surprising to me, especially when I learned that this is a comprehensive high school without selection of students. The principal was also a very impressive figure. In general, it was an interesting encounter and dialogue among us as well.

I note that the religious leadership present was very moderate, and one of the main goals of the talks was to prevent extremist actions and views. Their main message was the duty to obey the religious and spiritual leadership, and they all assumed that this way they would prevent extremist actions usually committed by unruly youth.[1] In my own talks I tried to convey to the students in the various classes quite the opposite message. I called on them to form their positions themselves and not to follow any spiritual or religious leader, moderate or extreme. I told them that in my opinion this prescription leads overall to a more balanced situation than collective following of a leader, even a moderate one. Beyond the inherent value I see in a person’s autonomous conduct, tying the conduct of an entire group to a single person is dangerous. A single problematic instruction from him suffices to change the whole picture of the group. By contrast, when people form their conceptions themselves, each pulls in a different direction, and together they produce a better social balance (this is essentially a capitalist “invisible hand” conception versus centralism).

I told them that in my religious outlook (and I added that I say and write this to religious Jews as well), a person will ultimately be held to account for his actions, and he cannot hide behind obedience to his leadership. In the end, each of us is responsible for his deeds. You can consult and hear arguments—certainly if we are talking about wise people older than you—but in the end the responsibility is yours and the decision is yours. So they told the Nazis at the Nuremberg Trials, and so shall it be told to every person, Jew or Muslim or of any other faith, when he comes before the Heavenly Court. I told them that ISIS members justify beheading by saying it was their leader’s command, and in my eyes this is a problematic justification (beyond the fact that the directive itself is wrong). In the end you are required to think and form your own position. Choosing the leader is also your decision, of course; thus, following him is also a step rooted in your own choice, and you are responsible for it. This is true for Jews (cf. “the annihilation of Amalek”)[2] and for Muslims, for Right and Left, and for every person. Even if you truly and sincerely believe in the rightness of your path—especially when that path involves extreme steps—you must examine carefully its basis and hear contrary facts and arguments. You must exercise your intuition, even if you are not an outstanding religious scholar. In the end, the decision is yours and the responsibility is yours. Choose well the leader who guides you, and it is best to examine both him and his directives with sevenfold scrutiny.

It was instructive to see the shock that most of the religious figures present expressed upon hearing my words (to be sure, there were a few who supported what I said). It really looked like the reactions I am used to when I say and write these things in the Jewish context.

A Note on Moral Relativism

In the thread linked above, Doron repeated again and again that my words imply moral relativism. I already noted above that this is not correct. My claim about judging the gavra by his own approach has nothing to do with moral relativism. On the contrary, throughout my remarks I assumed that there is right and wrong in the moral domain, and the discussion is only about how we should judge a person who behaves in a morally improper way. That is, I assume there is a correct moral system that everyone is obligated by; in this sense I am decidedly not a moral relativist. My claim is that although what is morally correct (what is fitting) is clear, nonetheless the judgment of the person (the gavra) must take into account what he himself considers fitting. The act (in the cheftza) is evil by virtue of a binding, universal moral system (in my view), yet the judgment of the acting person (the gavra) depends on his own conceptions. In short, my claim is not a claim about moral values, but about the proper manner of moral judgment of the gavra.

Conclusion

Bottom line, the picture is complex and I have no clear criterion. I truly believe that judgment of the gavra must be made solely according to his own approach (whereas judgment of the cheftza is only according to mine). But around this there are mitigating and aggravating circumstances. The question of how responsibly the person weighed the position he formed is important. And even if he did not, there is the question of how much it is reasonable to demand that a reasonable person in his situation form a position independently.

All this is mainly on the theoretical plane, since, practically, we saw that judging the gavra depends on how much I believe that these are indeed his positions, and how I assess his capacity to judge his values and his perception of reality, and that of the society in which he lives and its leaders. Therefore, despite the categorical nature of my position, it is important for me to qualify and say that such judgment must always be made with caution; none of us examines kidneys and hearts. On the one hand, it is improper and even dangerous to be overly forgiving of evil deeds or to over-understand them; on the other hand, one cannot ignore the circumstances surrounding the person and the act under discussion.

[1] According to many of them, most Muslim religious leadership is moderate, and the loud, extreme voices are a small minority. I do not know how true this is. I suppose most readers here have a firm position on the matter (they no doubt think this is mere outward apologetics), and to me this is yet another example of forming a position on an issue about which we have no serious information, solely from a general impression.

[2] I am sure that if and when the matter becomes practical and relevant, every person must form a position on whether to annihilate Amalek or not, and the justification that “so it is written in the Torah” will not suffice. The feeling of whether it is fitting or not fitting to do so is important—even if it is the feeling of a layperson. The person himself is responsible for his actions, and there is no room for a justification based on obedience to authority. If this is true for the Nazis and for ISIS, it must also be true with respect to us.


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42 תגובות

  1. I just saw the following article:
    https://news.walla.co.il/item/3419367
    The deceased's brother-in-law regrets having formed anti-vaccination groups. When the problem reaches your own backyard, your perspective changes. How should we treat him? At the time, he really thought that vaccinations were forbidden. On the other hand, the fact is that when it reached his backyard, he changed his mind. In other words, there was probably recklessness in determining his initial position, and that's what the claim is about.
    I didn't understand what he meant when he said that he was “at peace with himself” on this matter.

  2. See Leibovitz's statement here:
    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/status_constr/17745759/19558/19558_original.jpg
    He seems to mean what I wrote here, although in his vehemence he ignores some reservations I raised in the column itself.

  3. There is something similar to a tolerance radius in relation to morality. That is, there are errors in a person's perception of morality that will define him as wrong and if he acts according to his method then he is wrong and immoral. But there is a type of error that will not be defined as wrong but as lacking an opinion (say, he thinks that murder is not bad) if he really believes it. In such a case, he is worse than evil. In other words, he is indeed not immoral, but it is worse. It is not that he is moral. He is simply a beast of prey or an animal. An evil or immoral person can repent. And someone who is wrong in his perception of morality and is within the tolerance radius can also discover that he is wrong (because morality is an objective reality that can be observed). But an animal cannot change anything.

    The Nazis, in our case, really saw evil in the Jews that obliged them to destroy this evil from the world (what evil cannot be eradicated from the world?). The problem was that they didn't understand that this evil could be eradicated by killing people (either because killing people was a greater evil than this evil or because it wouldn't really work because in the end they would have to destroy all people, including themselves. Because after the Jews, someone else would jump to the top of the pile. After all, there is no person in the world who is not evil). And they would have understood this if they had observed. But they chose not to observe - that is, they chose to be ignorant - they chose to be animals. In that choice they acted as evildoers, but after that they were already truly animals and not evildoers (unless they had a choice left to continue observing every moment even when the horse they were leading them (and not them) and then they were evildoers all that time)

    That is, there are four levels here:

    1. Having a correct moral perception and acting according to it – right and moral
    2. Having a wrong moral perception (an error of judgment and not an error in a minor matter) and acting according to it – wrong and moral
    3. Having a moral perception (it doesn't matter if it's correct or not) and not acting according to it – evil and immoral
    4. Having a wrong moral perception in a minor matter - or lacking a moral perception at all – animal – worse than evil – Worse, completely moral (we might call it sub-moral).

    It should be discussed whether the one in second place should be below the one in third place because he has more opinion (he is not just smarter. He has a better perception of good and evil than the one in second place). This is because he has a better chance of repenting than the other. It is said that in the question of who is better, a fool or an evil person (which I would say is evil is better), in this case the third place should be placed in second place. But it still requires study because the second person's mistake is an error in judgment. It is difficult to separate the question of who is more moral from the question of who is smarter.

    This is actually my deep problem with the left (in the world in general) – because some of its mistakes are mistakes in a secondary matter (infantile mistakes – foolish) and some of its mistakes are errors in judgment and that even that does not always help. As mentioned, the emotionality of the left in relation to its mistaken moral perception (stupidity and foolishness are a characteristic of the fourth type) moves it over time more and more towards the fourth than the second (or, as mentioned, the third - depending on the ranking method).

    1. Easy correction: The message is: “…. And if he acts according to his method, then he is wrong and not “immoral”.

  4. Who told Avraham that apart from all the benefits here, you can also ask about missing columns. It's really filling in the blanks according to the principles of honesty and justice. I'm not the most knowledgeable, etc., and I'm not allowed to innovate anything from the masses, but in my opinion, this column explains perfectly why there is no substance in judging according to his method. Because it is clearly explained that this judgment itself is neither impressive nor interesting nor does it have valid implications. Hence, there is also no problem in blankly agreeing with everything that someone wants to say about such a flourishing concept. And it is explained that any judgment that has substance and is interesting and has implications is not made according to his method but according to my method.

    What is this judgment? You have thoroughly stripped the judgment of everything that has content in it until there is nothing left. Neither defense nor deterrence nor a decision about what is right and what is wrong and where my son will be educated, neither black nor white hairs nor gray nor brown hairs, and in the end, from all this judgment, we got a mountain of ice. The entire situation is known – he was wrong about the facts or wrong about the values or wrong about a side definition or he gave in to his instinct, and what is the meaning of the additional question “Did a moral flaw cling to him”, and are we talking about a flawed person? The discussion about the sublime waterfall in the previous column is also incomprehensible to me, and if you hang it on this, I will stand and try to present my opinion. And I also do not connect with discussions about moral luck. I admit that I have a vague feeling about what is being discussed here, but I am handling it appropriately for such a flawed remnant and firmly weeding it out (please, from the seed of Diosef Katina, who said, didn't you know that weeding will weed out).

    And what are the implications of this judgment? One implication appears in your words, and it is regarding punishment, and this is in accordance with the position that punishment has an element of “reward”. But in my opinion, the &#8221reward” This is a serious moral wrong (literally gratuitous hatred) and therefore it is difficult for me to use it to clarify what the judgment is. I am a caricature of their result that recognizes only punishment of the type of defense, deterrence and revenge, and one is for me whether the one being punished is a human or a robot (and whoever allows himself to punish because of “retribution” then I would throw him in prison, for forgiveness, along with his family and friends). Revenge is justified because of the strange psychological fact that people suffer from the fact that the evildoer is not punished (and there are various prosaic explanations for this). By the way, this is the place to formulate Newton's third law in relation to opinions: When I think of one opinion that is delusional, then the holder of the delusional opinion probably also thinks that my opinion is delusional, because the distance is really great (but unfortunately that is what it is).

    1. Another question. You explained that you judge the man according to his method of eloquence, meaning that someone who innocently holds a morally wrong position and acts on it, you judge him positively. Do you also judge according to his method of eloquence? Meaning that someone who innocently holds a morally wrong position but fails and does not act on it but does what you believe is morally right, do you exercise a negative judgment toward him? And if a negative judgment is exercised toward him, is that also a sufficient condition for punishment?

      1. Absolutely yes. For example, I judge harshly those who thought like Yigal Amir and did not act. As for the obligation to punish, I am not sure, since here there is a dimension of objective truth (did he really act badly). Just as I do not punish a person for a plan to cheer that did not come to fruition for side reasons (not because of his decision). Punishment as a sanction/reward has a dimension of correction and atonement, meaning that there is a connection to the results.

        1. Tolginus wrote about this:
          So you judge harshly and condemn, for example, the Egyptian spy Ashraf Marwan (let's assume he was a real spy and not a double agent) for betraying Egypt and breaking trust and providing Israel with invaluable information because he wanted money and was imbued with feelings of frustration and anger? I think that if so, then we are already reaching an area where you are moving away from the home port of relying on people's feelings and offering justification and basing it on them.

          In your column on Ruth Dayan, you wrote that friendship with a murderer like Arafat is a matter that is difficult for you to accept. It is quite clear that Arafat, in his opinion, thought he was 100 percent right, just like an Israeli general who thinks he is right. So what is the meaning of this reluctance to friendship that does not provide any global seal and the like. (I really treat Arafat like any leader of a rival country like Egypt, for example. I can't tell the difference between terrorism and war. And this is a phenomenon that I think is well-known, that when rival leaders meet, they develop friendships on a certain level; they really do have a lot in common.) Incidentally, I would have been happy to let the late Arafat smell the flowers from the roots a little earlier (because he was, overall, a fairly successful enemy Palestinian leader), but I don't see a problem in principle, as opposed to a vague feeling, going to the movies with him.

          And here's my comment:
          It depends on what Ashraf thought: If he did it to make money but realized he was wrong, I do condemn him. And in my opinion, it certainly fits people's feelings, although I don't attach much importance to them. Furthermore, sometimes people feel conflicting feelings and it is necessary to clarify to them what their feelings are. For example, there are many who feel that the Nazis must be evil and did not take into account the possibility that they might have believed in what they did.
          As for Arafat, I find it hard to believe that he thought he was completely okay. He was a mass murderer all over the world (he collaborated with terrorist organizations not only here). He was a corrupt man who stole money and lived a life of wealth at the expense of his own people, and also killed quite a few of them. If he did believe all of this on a moral level, then you are right. I highly doubt it.

          1. You fail to distinguish between a leader of terrorists who deliberately murder children and women and the civilian population, and a leader of a theoretical state? Or are you saying that people like Ruth Dayan sometimes don't make the difference?
            Or are you just saying that in fact every leader of an enemy Arab state ultimately wants what the terrorist wants - to destroy the State of Israel, which represents the people of Israel. And if he had the power, he would act with the same means as the terrorist leader himself. And in this you are quite right. There is really no fundamental difference between Arafat and Nasser in their hatred of Israel and the desire to destroy it. And if Nasser had the ability, he would undoubtedly slaughter Jewish children as well. But I don't think that's what you're implying. Rather, you are repeatedly approaching a position that insists on seeing the ”narrative” of the enemy. Always objectively. Although it is clear to every sensible person which side is on the side of justice and which side is on the side of evil. In the past, your articles have spoken about all the damage caused by this blurring of boundaries. It is a pity that today you are getting closer and closer to these areas.

            1. You are attacking my response (I accidentally posted it somewhere else and therefore it was copied here) and not Rabbi Michi's comment. In my opinion, you said nothing, but I don't feel like opening that front now either.

    2. In the column itself, I wrote that one could ask why it is even necessary to judge the man, and I said that I do not address this. I assume that people judge and ask how one should judge.
      To your question, I will add here that such a judgment also has significance within the framework of your theory that punishment does not have an element of retribution. Think of a situation in which a murder phenomenon is prevalent in the public and you need to deal with it. To deter potential murderers and protect society from murderers. You have three options for action: 1. For each murder, execute ten randomly selected people. Kill ten members of the murderer's family. 3. Kill one in every ten murderers.
      Let's assume for the sake of discussion that all the steps will result in the same deterrence and the same benefit of preventing danger to the public (deterrence and protection). Don't you see an advantage to the third proposal? I do, and the reason for this is that in the third proposal, the suffering is inflicted on the person who ”deserves” him, and not on the innocent. In other words, the judgment of the man also plays a role in punishment for the purpose of deterrence and protection of society (even without retribution). When you punish a person to deter or protect society, you do not only consider the consequences, otherwise you could just kill people to deter. You also consider the question of whether he deserves it. And the reason for this is that there is no justification for punishing a person even if the punishment brings the benefit, unless he deserves to be punished. The judgment of whether he deserves to be punished is the judgment of the man I was talking about here.
      I will perhaps emphasize the point more. Would it be an advantage to punish for the purpose of deterrence a murderer who thinks himself that murder is forbidden and yet still commits it over a murderer who thinks murder is permitted? In my opinion, it is better to deter by punishing the former because he is evil in the eyes of the man.
      By the way, in light of your comments in the corresponding thread (https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%d7%90%d7%aa%d7%99%d7%a7%d7%94-%d7%90%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%a1%d7%98%d7%95%d7%98%d7%9c%d7%99%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%90%d7%9d-%d7%a8%d7%90%d7%95%d7%99-%d7%9c%d7%94%d7%96%d7%a8%d7%99%d7%a7-%d7%97%d7%99%d7%a1%d7%95#comment-48282) about Pushing the oil off the bridge I'm not sure you'll agree, but to me it seems like a simple decision.

      1. Only about the push off the bridge, I will add two things.
        There is a problem with pushing, but it is a psychological matter within the consequentialist framework: if as a matter of general law it permits pushing bridges, then everyone every day fears lest they push me, lest they take my money, lest they take my limbs, lest they do this or that. Although all of the above acts are moral obligations like pushing off the bridge. Therefore, removing protection from unrelated people will greatly harm the peace of mind in the world. And in my opinion, this is also what lies at the root of the instinctive resistance of certain people to being thrown off the bridge.
        Another thing, I do not pretend to act according to the laws of morality as it is. Morality, to be healthy, is very, very demanding and it is impossible to meet what it demands (from its perspective, my feelings are in no way superior to the feelings of others. But I do price my own feelings at a high price and in particular more than the feelings of others). I only do as much as I can, subject to all sorts of psychological qualities.

  5. I don't think the Nazis thought what they were doing was good or moral. If I'm not mistaken they despised Jewish-Christian morality.
    They really wanted to be bad. They're not like ISIS or Hamas or Joshua Ben Nun or Shmuel.
    Their goal was to abolish morality. Just like a criminal who uses violence in protection so that they are afraid of him and invests in it as a religious commandment…

    1. They didn't want to be bad. They despised what is called "slave morality." Which is really to be despised. They were in favor of "master morality." It's just that I don't think Nietzsche meant that anyone with slave morality should be killed. At most, just to separate from it and separate from it. I was in favor of the Germans separating themselves from the Jews. That is, that the Europeans would allocate some territory to the Jews of Europe and let them exist there alone with themselves (of course with all the property they had and compensation for the properties of the poor that they had). Jews are truly an intolerable people in this respect. They despise the Gentiles who live among them and are irresponsible for their national fate (if they are not loyal to their own people, how can they be loyal to the peoples who lived among them? "Being German when you leave" was really a bluff from the land of bluffs). A people whose details interest them in nothing but their own personal advancement. This is true for all peoples and all people (and in this sense, nationalism is also a fake thing, like everything related to people), only for the Jews it is one level above and very prominent. This is actually the deep source of anti-Semitism.

  6. Eitan,
    What you say reinforces exactly the opposite opinion of yours. The Nazis took their ideology seriously and were willing to pay very high prices to achieve what they identified as good. Unlike a criminal who operates protectionism, where all that matters is measurable profit and not an abstract ideal.
    Of course not all Nazis were like that but certainly many good (and bad) ones were.

  7. I accidentally posted here instead of following your response regarding the judgment of Lehomra and Yigal Amir. If possible, please delete it here and repost there, etc.

  8. It depends on what Ashraf thought: if he did it for money but realized that he was wrong, I do condemn him. And in my opinion, it certainly fits people's feelings, although I don't attach much importance to them. Moreover, sometimes people feel conflicting feelings and need to be made clear to them what their feelings are. For example, there are many who feel that the Nazis must have been evil and did not take into account the possibility that they might have believed in what they did.
    As for Arafat, I find it hard to believe that he thought he was completely right. He is a mass murderer all over the world (he collaborated with terrorist organizations not only here). He was a corrupt man who stole money and lived a life of wealth at the expense of his people, and also killed quite a few of them. If he did believe all this on a moral level, then you are right. I highly doubt it.

  9. Regarding comment 2, do you have a sufficiently convincing reason why it is moral to wipe out Amalek? Or do you believe that it is forbidden to obey it?

    1. It is certainly immoral (at least for someone who is not a criminal or a baby), but there is such a religious command. I do not have the tools to decide right now as long as it is not on the agenda. I assume that if and when it is on the agenda, the matter will come up and then a decision can be made. I am almost certain that at least in practice babies will not be killed.

      1. I hope that neither adults, boys, and women who just want to live in peace and never thought of exterminating Jews just because of a historical story will kill them in gas chambers. It shocks me to imagine them being kicked and scared the day some researcher reveals to them that they are Amalekites (just as the Nazis revealed to many Jews that they are Jews).

        1. אבל להם יגלו את האפשרות לקבל שבע מצוות בני נח (לדביר) says:

          On the 12th of Adar, 12th of Adar,

          To the Rabbi, Shalom Rav,

          The Amalekites have a simple way to be saved by accepting the seven commandments of the children of Noah, as explained in the words of the Maimonides. These things also arise from the words of Samuel to Saul, who was commanded: “Go and destroy the sinners, Amalek.” This means that when they abandoned the ideology of evil and accepted the foundations of faith and the moral values of the Torah, they accepted them. As explained in the Book of Genesis (Sanhedrin 177), “The sons of Haman taught the infants of Rabban’s house.” And from whom? Rav Shmuel bar Shilat (This is the version of Rabbi Aharon Heiman, ‘Toldot Tannaim va Amoraim’, edited by Rav Shmuel bar Shilat’)

          Rabbi Shmuel bar Shilat was a student of a rabbi and was known as a dedicated educator who did not distract himself from his students even after many years. The same quality of dedication that Amalek and Haman showed for hatred – was channeled by their descendant Rav Shmuel bar Shilat into the dedication of an educator to his students.

          With blessings, Yaron Fish”Ordner

          Even regarding the seven nations, Maimonides wrote that if they received the seven commandments of the sons of Noah – they receive them. And this also fits well with the scriptures that explained that the duty to destroy them is ‘lest they cause you to sin’. It is therefore understandable that someone who accepted the commandments of the children of Noah out of faith in the Torah is among the Righteous Among the Nations.

          Incidentally, it turns out that the highest probability today of finding the descendants of Amalek is among the Israelites, since John Hyrcanus converted the Edomites, and they remained faithful Jews even two hundred years later, when they participated with the Jews in the great revolt against the Romans.

          1. All this only if the great men of Israel rule according to the Rambam. Because as you know, if there are those who disagree, the Rambams use the rules of jurisprudence. And according to the rules, it is not certain that they will accept only the words of the Rambam.

            Moreover, since throughout the exile various excuses and explanations were invented as to why killing Amalekites is the most moral thing there is (after all, the Torah commands this. They did not read the words of Rabbi Micah, and if they did, they would claim that if Rabbi Micah said it, it is probably heresy).

            In short,

            1. Who disagrees with Maimonides? Samuel says: “Go and destroy the sins of Amalek.” And isn’t it clear from the Bible that peoples call for peace before war? Did David kill the son of Hagar the Amalekite only because his mouth answered him that he would kill the Messiah of God, and not because of his Amalekite origin?

              With blessings, Menashe Fishel Halevi Zuchmir

              1. See for example here: https://ph.yhb.org.il/05-14-08/#_te01ftn14_10
                Note 10

                You bring arguments and verses and rulings against Rishonim, I agree with you but do you understand that the judges will be shocked by your audacity? And they certainly will not rule according to arguments but according to the rules of decision, because we should not put our heads between the giants of the world, etc., etc.

              2. On the 13th of Adar, 5781

                To the Rabbi, Shalom Rav,

                The discussion there is about the words of the Maimonides in the prohibitions of entry that an Amalekite can convert to be like Israel by accepting the 13 commandments, and this is discussed by the latter from the words of Rabbi Eliezer in the Mekhilta, who swore to the Lord In His Majesty's throne, that they will not accept converts from Amalek (and in contrast, the testimony of the Magen in the Sanhedrin that Haman's sons taught Torah.

                It should be noted that even with regard to full conversion, no one mentioned Rishon who disagrees with the words of the Maimonides, and even the Achronim reduced the prevention of full conversion according to the opinion of Rabbi Eliezer in various ways, so that it would not be difficult for the Magen in the Sanhedrin.

                But I spoke about accepting the seven commandments of the sons of Noah, which exempts the Amalekites from the law of Midian, and in this regard, neither the Rishonim nor the Achronim heard any dissent from the Maimonides in the Book of Kings who says this,

                And as I brought from the law of the Magenites, the peoples who called for peace before fighting them. There is no source in the Sages that the Amalekites who accept the seven commandments The commandment of the children of Noah is that a resident alien is not accepted, and in the days of David there was a ‘son of a resident alien Amalek’, who was killed because of his participation in the killing of Saul and not because of his Amalekian descent.

                It is also explained in the Avenei Nezer (ibid.) that a resident alien is accepted. The Hid”a suggests that an Amalekite who becomes a resident alien can at a later stage convert to full conversion, and the words of Rabbi Eliezer in the Mekhilta only rule out a ‘direct jump” from an Amalekite to a full alien. And according to the prophet Arak, during a time of war there is a prohibition against an Amalekite converting to full conversion, but not during a time of war – an Amalekite can convert and become a Jew in every sense.

                With blessings, Yafa”r

                But I am amazed at you, that you are knowledgeable in the teachings of the Maharal From Prague, because the Maharal says that the ’swearing” is not a halakhic statement, but rather a determination of reality (this is how he explains the ‘three weeks’).

                According to this, Rabbi Eliezer describes a reality. It is formally possible for an Amalekite to convert, but it will not work. In the end, his Amalekiteness will become apparent and he will commit a serious sin that will lead to his rejection (as happened to the son of the Amalekite immigrant).

                And the Maimonides has already taught us that the choice is not absolutely ruled out. Also according to Rabbi Eliezer, the chances of success of an Amalekite immigrant are very small – so if he makes an effort, he will be able to overcome the bad traits that were imprinted in him, and the sons of Haman who taught Torah will prove it.

                All of this, of course, concerns a complete conversion to be a Jew, but to be a decent person who observes the seven commandments of the children of Noah. – It is clear that Amalek can, and therefore he is punished when he insists on standing his ground. And not accepting the commandments of the children of Noah.

                Incidentally, the Yahrzeit of the Hidda and the Avenir Nazar falls on the 1st of Adar (the Hidda in 1966, the Avnez in 1977).

              3. In addition to Dvir's correct response (according to Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, there is no disagreement that one should not kill an Amalekite who received the 7 commandments of the Noahide),
                1. Assuming (puzzling) that the Amalekites will be identified by research, we can rely on the methods of the Poskim who do not decide a law based on scientific research but rather need tradition (and it seems that regarding Tekhel, this is the method of many Poskim, even though there is not much harm in investigating Tekhel out of doubt)
                2. If the Amalekites are identified by a prophet, it is possible that the prophet will also give temporary instructions on what to do with them (and of course it will be necessary to carefully check the prophet that he is truly a prophet)
                3. It also turns out that there will be a Sanhedrin at that time and then there will be no flaw in arguing about the first ones
                4. I do not know if there is any agreement on how Amalekite identity is determined in the case of mixing with other peoples and apparently everyone has already mixed (I recently heard that it is according to the father but I do not know if this is agreed upon) and this will add additional sufficiency.

                Bottom line: The moral problem of living off Amalek is an important question for consideration and clarification of issues of faith and morality, but in practice, it is likely that no one will be killed just because they are of Amalek descent.

              4. It seems that future research that will identify the descendants of Amalek will be rejected with the claim: ‘Amalek”K’ 🙂

                However, in the future, all humanity will be forced to accept and keep the Seven Commandments of the Children of Noah, so that there will be no difference between those who sow Amalek and others.

                And in God, everyone will accept the commandments of the Children of Noah ‘with LIKE’

                With blessings, Yafa”r

  10. Among the criticisms is (certain cases of) systematic conduct such as that of the Nazis and the Jordanians. Based on the context, I guess the intention is that a system hardens a person in two ways - both that he follows it absolutely because he supposedly acts according to principle and does not bother to receive feedback from the cases and re-judge, perhaps the entire system is actually problematic, and also that blindness develops towards things that do not fit the system (or that are forced into the systematic bed of Sodom with interpretive/apologetic force). Thus the Jordanians acted in a determined manner according to their own principles, and the Israelis exploited the blind spots in this system. You wrote that "it has no place here"; if not here, where? (Whether my guess is somehow related to what you meant or not)

  11. On the 11th of Adar, 5781

    To the question of judging a person's values, ‘according to her system’, column 244 is dedicated to ‘A person's value judgment in controversial matters’, dedicated to Yigal Amir.

    With blessings,, Masorat of the website

    It seems that in judging a person's values, ‘according to her system’, one can reach the level of ‘a witness who does not know between the cursed Haman and the blessed Mordechai’ 🙂

    1. In the 11th of Adar, 5771

      Haman was truly judged ‘according to her system’, according to the system of values he established. He determined that a people who do not bring benefit to the king must be destroyed. According to the system that Haman established, the value of a human life depends on the benefit it brings to the king.

      According to this view, Esther proved that Haman himself was causing damage to the king's treasury, by ordering the destruction of the Jews instead of selling them as slaves and handmaids. Her destruction added to the damage that Haman wanted to cause by killing the man who spoke well of the king. Therefore, the king ordered him to be killed in accordance with his system that anyone who does not bring benefit to the king's treasury deserves death.

      Haman's life is found to be obligated both according to Mordecai's system of values – because of his desire to destroy the people of the ’ – And according to Haman's own moral system – because it is harmful to the king's treasury.

      Even the people of Israel are found worthy of life according to both systems. Both because we are the people of the ’ who proclaims his faith to the world by reading the scroll, and because of our economic benefit to the treasury of the King of the world, by providing for the poor whom the King of kings desires to honor.

      Haman and Mordecai were found to agree ‘on the bottom line’, and there is no disagreement between them ‘on the matter of life’ 🙂

      With blessings, Shimshon Harshale Halevi Austropoler

      1. On the other hand, Haman is also judged according to Esther's method, which believes that punishment by way of sale into slavery is preferable, in which the punished person is directed to a life of benefit, and therefore Haman fulfills the scripture: ‘And his master pierced his ear with an awl, and he was a slave forever’. The piercing of Haman's ear, folding it and filling it with various sweets – has the aspect of ‘sweetening the laws’ 🙂

        With blessings, Menashe Fish”l Halevi Zuchmir

        1. Haman indeed deserved that his ear would be remembered for generations as a blessing, for he followed the advice of the Sages to consult with his wife in the words of Balama and in the words of Debita (Bava Metzia 55), and by virtue of his listening to his wife's voice and advice, he deserved to bring salvation to the people of Israel.

          Even the shape of Haman's ear, which bends from all sides toward its middle, symbolizes the statement of Chazal: "You have made a sign, and you have whispered to her." The ear, which bends from all sides inward, symbolizes the inclination of the ear to listen and hear the voice of the housekeeper, who is honored inwardly 🙂

          With a triple blessing, Mazal

          1. In the Bible, the failure of Haman came from the fact that his self-worth stemmed from the respect he received from others. In this situation, it was enough for one person not to treat him with respect to make him feel that “all this is not worth it.”

            A person’s correction comes when he accepts his self-worth from within. When a person feels full of flavor and meaning to his life, he will not need at all, and will need much less, external approval and honor.

            He who is deeply rooted inwardly, to the heavenly “man” within his soul, and not to the honor he expects to receive from the “crowd.” After all, his life is full of good taste like butter and sweet as honey.

            And these things are especially true this year, when the main focus of the joy of Purim will be in gathering inwardly and not in mass externalization, as the king and his religion command: ‘Let every man be a poet in his own home’ 🙂

            , With the blessings of a happy Purim and a healthy year, Simcha Fish”l Halevi Plankton

  12. Sorry if I didn't read your responses to the responses above carefully, but it seems to me that you didn't answer the question that was asked, whether in your opinion there is a point in such a moral judgment, or I didn't understand your answer.

    You did write that, for example, judgment can be used to decide whether to kill a murderer out of ideology or a murderer out of appetite, but I didn't understand why not examine what would better prevent the bad outcome in my opinion (in which case it may very well be better to kill a murderer out of ideology, since he is more determined and more difficult to deter by other means)?

    Is this moral judgment really just a quibble about who is worse than whom?

    Also regarding the commemoration or memorialization of people I believe were mistaken in their opinions and committed "bad" acts as a result, or alternatively, condemnation, I can use the test of the desired outcome in my opinion, that is, what would promote the spread of the correct moral system in my opinion.

    Perhaps in the next world, this judgment has meaning or a place. In our own world, I see no real reason not to judge people and their actions, according to the moral system that, in my opinion, is the correct system.

    1. In the column itself, I wrote that it doesn't matter to me whether or not there is any point in judging the man. I'm discussing the question of how to judge him if someone wants to judge. I also mentioned that this has implications for punishment for the sake of retribution. But in the talkbacks above, I explained to Tolginus that this also has practical implications regarding punishment for deterrence (even without retribution).

  13. I quote you from column 290
    “The picture that is being painted in the world (literally, not just in Israel) is horrific. Blasphemy like no other. People in Israel and around the world are literally exploding at the sight and sound of these things. The rage is terrible, and if we were in Russia or Ukraine in the nineteenth century, I think massacres and pogroms would break out here. Suddenly I begin to understand how it happened then (and I don't fully understand how it doesn't happen today). The world sees before its eyes a herd of infantile fools by choice and by choice, lacking understanding and lacking solidarity, and at the same time puffed up with self-importance and lacking any ability for self-criticism. A collection of small, irresponsible children who spout slogans that they themselves don't believe in and live by them (until the moment of testing comes and then it becomes clear what they really believe). It's no wonder that people feel that this society is stuck somewhere in the prehistoric era, and the main problem is that they themselves are making an ideology out of it.

    You have to understand that in the age of global media, everything is photographed and everything is known. People feel that there is an evil, stupid and ungrateful population here, despite the inconceivable consideration and help of the general society for these phenomena. Therefore, it is difficult for me to say that they are making too big a mistake. These things sound almost anti-Semitic (except for the fact that they are completely justified), but it seems to me that one viral picture is worth a thousand words:”

    Is it possible to write such a sharp criticism in line with the current column?

    1. Absolutely. Why not? I suppose many of those people are not inherently evil, but this company is willfully evil and irresponsible in terms of the tests it conducts for its method and conclusions, especially when it makes it a burden on the rest of the public who do not identify with it.

  14. Hello!
    If the whole world is waiting for you to tell the truth, I believe you are waiting for my opinion on yours to be known :), and therefore I am aware that my opinion is completely the same as yours.
    And I will expand a little on the subject of Holocaust denial. In the world of saying that justifying the Nazis and claiming that they were essentially good even though their actions were evil, denies the Holocaust and its horror. But in my opinion, it is the one that best assimilates the memory of the Holocaust. After all, our main goal in perpetuating the Holocaust is so that the horror does not repeat itself. As long as we pump out the message that the Nazis were scum, cruel and heartless, we are actually missing the main point. Because we are not preventing the creation of new and updated methods that morally and ethically establish the possibility of murdering nations, ethnic groups, or genders. If we shout at the members of this modern party that they are Nazis, they will be deeply offended. They are world reformers, not evil haters.
    If we assimilate the fact that although the Nazis wanted to reform the world with their good intentions, they were wrong in their way, they were wrong in their judgment, they were wrong in their recognition of reality, and therefore we will establish a moral obligation to thoroughly investigate reality before making absolute determinations that lead to far-reaching conclusions – we will perpetuate the memory of the Holocaust, and we will better ensure that it is the last.
    ————–
    Another point. In the past, Safed and Katzfat opposed the leaders of the Haredi public regarding their conduct in matters of Corona. I believe you believe that their actions are wrong in your eyes, and I assume that as far as defense and the like are concerned’ there is no connection between this column and that matter; But it seems that you did not judge them as they are. And I am speaking both in relation to the leaders and in relation to those who are being led. The punishment of exile, it seems to all opinions, is not revenge or the like, but rather atonement for a wrong act. It seems to me that in this matter it is correct to take into account their system, and I will not speak about the system of Rabbi Kanievsky [about whom you claimed that he should be accused of failing to properly investigate a matter in which there is a danger to life. Although again, there is an error in the facts here since his life mirrors are through certain channels, and I do not think that he already knows the reality today], but there are a number of Haredi leaders who adhere to their position and are convinced that they acted correctly, despite the bloodshed that they know well, and from close quarters.
    Your harsh criticism of them stems from the fact that you find it difficult to believe that they really think that this is the right way to act. You can of course ignore the defensive arguments of the ultra-Orthodox and claim that this is narrow dogmatic thinking, but I think you need to take into account that there are people there who know the leaders themselves, and are convinced beyond a doubt that there is no evil here as you defined it here - weakness of will, or putting interest before values; but at most a different scale of values, which you are allowed to crush as someone who belongs to the strong majority group in the country, but should not lead you to make firm claims about their level of morality.
    ——————
    And back to the first issue. It is customary to be very shocked when those who are kicked and trampled under the hooves of the horses of the Y&M and Y&M shout at the loyal police officers who carry out the orders of the government the nickname: Nazis.
    I really don't think these foolish boys ever thought about what they were shouting, but in general, what is said in this column makes no difference in the judgment of the Jew persecuted by the SS officer and the Israel Police officer. Both of them thought they were doing good, and both of them did something that was bad from his perspective and according to the value scale of the one shouting. The fact that the shocked person thinks that the German did something bad and that the Jew is doing something good should not affect the judgment of the one shouting. And even if we manage to prove to this fool that the policeman's intentions are good (he only wants to protect the health of the people), he will lick you this column in which it is explained that the Nazis' intentions were also good (he only wanted to protect the purity of humanity). When it comes to judging the actions, he is absolutely not committed to your values.

    1. I did not think and do not think that the Haredi leaders are inherently evil. My argument is that they are negligent and ignorant. Especially when a person gives instructions to a large public, the obligation to clarify is even more incumbent on him. As a reminder, the obligation to exile is for an accidental murderer (although here, in my opinion, it is accidental, close to intentional). Beyond that, I have an argument for the entire Haredi society that allows all of this to happen.

      1. A. In the claim of negligence and ignorance, you may be right, and you probably mean Rabbi Kanievsky, whom you attacked at the time.
        The entire Haredi society holds a scale of values that says that the rabbi is always right. Let's say you are right and this system is wrong and distorted, it does not represent Judaism, it may lead to crazy extremism. What does this have to do with it? It is still impossible to claim that Haredi society is inherently evil. And if so, what is your claim against them? In this column, you write in a column under the title ‘Irresponsibility in forming a perception of reality or values’ and defend Haredi who will behave towards a gentile like an animal, or for Haaretz readers who will talk nonsense – since it is impossible to really expect a person living in a closed society to think differently from what they are educated to do. So indeed, you should write trilogies and columns that will shine a bright light on the Haredim who nevertheless surf your site, but the anger and rage you displayed then ostensibly indicate a moral judgment of Haredi society as a whole.
        B. I drew your attention to other leaders (not the ones you referred to then) who have a different scale of values that prioritizes certain activities over the risk of lives, and they do not repeat them even when it happens in their immediate environment. (Speaking of your claim about the incorrect argument: What, don't you have a heart?!)
        Of course, one can insist and claim that these are narrow personal interests that outweigh values, but then we do not judge them according to their system but according to ours.

        1. I didn't understand what the argument was about. Regarding my claim for Haredi society, I claim negligence and ignorance, and less malice (this only exists on the margins). But claims against a society are not like claims against an individual. If you treat a society as a given and examine only the details, you can see them as not guilty. But someone also created society, and that someone is all of its members. Therefore, they have a responsibility for the norms that prevail in society. If they are sure that the rabbis are right, and the rabbis are also sure that they are right, they are guilty of this stupidity that repeatedly turns out to be wrong and they don't give a damn. That's my claim. Especially since their perceptions lead to parasitism in relation to the society that carries them on its shoulders, which requires them to further examine their positions. When you demand that others bear the costs of your conduct, your obligation is doubled and multiplied.
          Indeed, my claims are against all of Haredi society. There is no point in dividing between rabbis because when dealing with society, it must be discussed as a whole. And this is its face as a whole. In every society there are good people, even those who try to improve, and yet this is the face of society and all its members are responsible for it. Just as I claim towards the Arabs, that there are good people and good intentions there too, but the general face of Arab society is very problematic.
          Regarding the trilogies and columns that I write, I think that is what I do here day and night. So what is the claim? On the contrary, because of the closures and censorship of the Haredi society, it is careful to continue the ignorance and is not willing to expose its members to counter-arguments, and therefore not only is its situation bleak but it makes it very difficult to attempt to change and improve it, so that the problem only increases. Of course there are those who are exposed (like you) and that is excellent. I hope that I will have some contribution to the improvement of the Haredi society.

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