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A View on Emotions in Discourse and Beyond—The Walder Affair (Column 439)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

A few days ago, a post by a man named Daniel Bokovza—apparently himself a victim of sexual assault—was shared on WhatsApp. He addresses the reactions to the Walder affair. The post, and even more so the responses to it, stirred me to revisit the emotionalism of our discourse and its harms, even though I’ve discussed this more than once. I’ll say upfront: you won’t find here a discussion of the affair itself or its various aspects.

The Post

Here’s what Bokovza wrote:

I haven’t written an opinion in a long time. There are topics where I […] look at reality with tired eyes, take a cigarette, and close the door. A crooked, distorted, and sick world—where do you even start trying to heal anything? And I’m sorry, this is going to be smelly and unpleasant, what I’m writing here, but if your nose has survived the flood of Ynet push notifications in recent months—or recent years—I’m sure it will bravely hold up here too.

I love the tone of surprise, anger, and shock in those who can’t understand, or fail to grasp, or are simply appalled—how, how can it be that around Chaim Walder, or Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, or Ohovzki, or Eyal Golan, or Prof. Elkayim, or Tzipi Diner, or name it—each and every one of the perpetrators starring on your favorite news site every couple of days—how can there be around these people a wall of protection, friends who testify to their virtues, ignore their deeds, fight for them, swear by their names, ready to declare support for them. How, how.

I love it mainly because I’ve learned that a sad smile is a great drug against innocence blended with feigned innocence, and sometimes with stupidity. I love it because some of these people, justice warriors armed with ideology, spoke with me this past month about the sexual assault I myself suffered, and knew how to qualify their words, to say “we’re not judging” or “it’s complicated” or “I don’t know,” you know, all those kinds of sentences that—how, how.

How? Because everyone like Meshi-Zahav or Eyal Golan or Walder has friends.

Friends, colleagues, family, people who owe them favors, fans, former students.

All of these, in addition to the rest of humanity that tends to like repression in general, don’t want to know that the person they know is a total scumbag. Not in their world, not in their surroundings. Not the one they had coffee with, not the one they dined with last Shabbat. Heaven forbid.

All of these will forget the firm and resolute rage when it hits their own backyard. They will forget, and parrot what the friends of Elkayim, Diner, Ohovzki say: it’s complicated, it’s complicated. We’re not judging. We weren’t there. We don’t know.

They will forget how in the past they demanded we stand by the victims, how they swapped their profile picture to the tasteful slogan “I believe you.” They will forget how they were disgusted by the friend who played Eyal Golan in the car, because how, how.

They will forget everything they prefer to forget. And suddenly everything will be complicated.

You know what’s complicated?

It’s complicated to know that you walked through hell and you can’t tell anyone about it. You can try, but take into account that it’s complicated, okay? It’s complicated. After all, they weren’t there. And they’re not judging. Maybe you didn’t understand? Look, every story has two sides. And he’s a charming person, charming charming charming. Don’t you know that bad people walk around with horns and a tag that says “I’m a jerk”?

They’re not judging, the friends of. They don’t want to judge.

Meaning, they say they’re not judging; in practice, they’ve long since rendered a verdict. In his favor, of course—and they don’t even grasp how active they are in this pleasant choice of theirs. Because in abuse there are two primary interests: the perpetrator wants the story to remain in his head and the victim’s, and the victim seeks trust. That trust—which until you feel your sanity depends on it you can’t imagine how precious it is—is a resource that lies, among other places, in the soil of your environment. It’s a precious resource that cannot be mined without cooperation.

They’re not judging, but they keep in touch with him. What do you mean, it’s complicated.

They’ll keep buying his books, or going to her classes, or having coffee with him, or inviting him to meals because poor guy, he’s going through a tough time himself and it’s complicated, it’s complicated. We’re not judging.

With that infuriating innocence–feigned innocence–stupidity, they’ll lay stone after stone in the wall of silence surrounding the perpetrator and the victim, signaling outward: better keep quiet. And that’s what they say to someone who’s already speaking, yes? To the one who still keeps silent, they’re basically adding another nail in the coffin of her healing. Another ringing slap, another small ruin of trust in the world. Because it’s complicated, and he’s a golden person, and how can you now decide from one moment to the next that that’s it—and what, should we forget everything he did? You know how he lit up our wedding?

*

I look at the world through the eyes of someone who has seen how ruined relationships can be, and how people who are basically good people—just like you and me—with their beer and their Friday mornings at the market and their party and music in the car and good vibes and the correct opinions—how useful and convenient collaborators they can be, these “complicated” ones. And how cowardly. How they tremble at the upheaval their world will face if they follow their morals and conscience—and not, God forbid, what goes down easily with their Shabbat challah.

When does it change? Not only when it’s light-years away from them, but when it’s close enough. Two weeks ago I spoke with one of those “complicated” types, someone who doesn’t judge, he wasn’t there, he doesn’t know. We talked, and I asked him—if I were a closer friend of yours, or your brother, would you still keep in touch with him? Would you still go talk to him? Would it still be complicated?

He was silent.

I understand, I told him. We’re just not close enough. Fighting sexual violence is important, but the existing order in your world is more important. If we were close enough, maybe you’d be willing to step out of that comfort zone where sexual violence is only a Ynet headline. Right now, no. And how can one say—grow a backbone, for heaven’s sake. Be brave. Be brave, all of you. How, how.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the story. In its entirety. It’s complicated, there are two sides, you can’t judge—because it’s scary. Simply scary. It’s terrifying to grasp that this hell can exist next door, in your building-with-a-code.

You know what’s even scarier?

Bleeding alone from the soul, keeping quiet, sleeping every night with this nightmare, the complicated, the complicated. Being brave enough to speak and discovering it’s better you keep quiet. He was a charming man, a sweet soul. Don’t ruin what keeps things orderly in their eyes.

Surely you won’t be surprised that once the post went up in the group, the responses were impassioned. People said it was jolting, chilling, thought-provoking. Someone wrote there:

I have no words… It’s thought-provoking and calls for repentance. I’m sorry…

These are typical reactions and I’m sure you can find many like them, but I must say that they—and the post itself—really annoy me, mainly in two closely related respects: the emotionalism and the attempt to force a position on me on the grounds that I must empathize with someone who suffered.

A First Look

I understand that these words are a kind of cry, an expression of great distress, and one can and should empathize with them and with the writer. But when addressing the content of his words, with all due respect to the distress and the desire to express it, I don’t accept that they dictate to me what I should think/say and what not.

The writer assumes that no one may relate in a complex way to a person who harmed others, and demands that we adopt a simple view with a clear, one-sided condemnation. I fully agree that the fact that someone harmed people deserves every condemnation, as well as treatment and punishment, but that doesn’t contradict the need and importance of understanding the complexity of the situation and the person, when such complexity exists (not every case is necessarily complex, but it can be). On the contrary, I’ve written more than once (see, for example, in columns 5, 2930, 2656, and many more) about the importance of understanding the complexity of positions, pictures, or people in order to form a balanced stance toward them and, especially, to draw substantive and relevant conclusions. I’ve explained there why simplistic thinking is very convenient for us but also very misleading and unhelpful.

Here the writer assumes that if someone says the situation is complex, this is merely to leave himself in his comfort zone—as if it were self-evident that no complexity can exist in such situations. How does he know that in Chaim Walder’s case the situation was simple and clear? How does he know there weren’t good sides to him, as his family and friends attest, and that their astonishment and disbelief regarding the acts aren’t authentic? How can he write such things without knowing the case (as I understand it, he isn’t writing from familiarity with the affair or the people involved)? In my estimation, it is precisely the writer’s unwillingness to recognize complexity that stems from his preference for his own comfort (as a victim who enjoys sympathy and compassion). He projects his own flaw.

I don’t intend to claim anything about the Walder affair—whether it’s complex or not—since I don’t know the details. That’s also not important in my view. I’m only arguing that if it isn’t complex, say so and justify it; and if it is complex, then you must acknowledge that. Of course you can express pain, distress, and harm, but don’t use these to force others into simplistic thinking and incorrect conceptions of reality. Even if distorting reality helps some victim feel supported by his environment, and even if a straight grasp of reality hurts him, I’m not prepared to forgo honesty in perceiving reality—that is, to yield to the pragmatist demand to subordinate the true to the useful. The exploitation of victimhood to impose positions and a certain mode of discourse is very common among us, and it annoys me every time; yet again and again it turns out to be effective.

In short: if the situation is complex, then it’s complex—and if not, then not. But that has nothing to do with the degree to which others were harmed. If they were harmed, they deserve proper attention—but that shouldn’t change how we relate to reality and its complexities. These remarks reflect the emotionalism of our public discourse. I’m entirely in favor of condemning offenders and forcefully opposing wickedness and injustice, but that has nothing to do with a complex view of the situation and its importance.

When I see impassioned posts of this sort, I tend to rebel. I feel I’m being emotionally squeezed, and I’m not willing to accept that. So in my initial response I wrote the following there:

With all the sorrow and empathy for Bokovza’s suffering and for victims in general, I disagree. It’s important to understand the complexity of people and situations even in these cases, alongside compassion and solidarity with the victims. The two are not at odds.

The inflammatory tone is understandable as a result of the harm he experienced, but we mustn’t let it take over the discourse. Emotionalism is understandable, but not justified. It’s a common phenomenon in our circles that victims take over the discourse and suppress any other, more balanced voice.

Therefore, there’s really no need to “repent” in light of his words. A complex view is always desirable and important.

The takeover of discourse and judgment by emotion is a malignant disease that appears everywhere in our discourse. Anyone disadvantaged or harmed is necessarily right. A woman who was raped (or even claims she was) is always right. Someone who is gay is necessarily disadvantaged, and one may not speak critically of him or positively of his opponents. You may not see any extenuating side in the perpetrator or in someone who simply disagrees with the victim’s stance. Victims of terror or families of captives are always right. And so too with Mizrahim, Palestinians, women, the disabled, and more—fill in the blanks. In this stupefying discourse, the weak become “made-weak,” and as such we bear total responsibility for their situation, and we are forbidden to express a more balanced view or try to understand the other side.

Implications

Because of the emotionalism surrounding such debates—on all sides, of course—all kinds of irrelevant arguments surface. Someone else wrote in that same WhatsApp discussion:

I think the argument is simple: don’t think that when you say “it’s complex” you’re not taking a stance. You are explicitly taking a stance. After that, of course, it’s up to you what to do with that determination.

That is essentially what Bokovza himself argued. If you think about it for a moment—this is sheer nonsense. And so I wrote there:

Saying “it’s complex” is definitely not taking a stance. On the contrary, it’s clear Walder’s conduct is problematic, but there are additional and complex sides. What stance is there here? This is just being swept along by emotions and identifying with victims.

Again, Bokovza assumes that whoever says it’s complex is really trying to stay in his comfort zone. Perhaps there are people for whom that’s true—but to draw from this a conclusion about everyone who utters the phrase “it’s complex” is vanity and nonsense. It turns out that even a statement that seems balanced and moderate on its face reflects emotional drift.

Blaming the Victim

One of the common claims under the emotionalist dictatorship is accusing those with a certain stance of “blaming the victim.” Try discussing the character or criminal past of Solomon Teka, or his problematic conduct during the incident and prior to it—or the character and past of George Floyd (see column 316)—and you’ve sentenced yourself, and certainly the discussion, to certain death. I addressed this in column 117, and won’t expand here.

I argued there that indeed there are situations in which the victim bears contributory fault, and it’s very important to discuss it. If someone blames women who were raped on the grounds that they conducted themselves provocatively (in those cases where that was the case), you can imagine what he’ll catch on the head. The crescendo of victimhood rises to the heavens. Likewise if someone points to problematic characteristics in Mizrahi society, or Palestinian society, or in LGBTQ groups, and so forth. This mode of discourse leads us to keep getting more and more harmful outcomes and more and more victims. Victimhood distorts discourse and also harms the effort to treat the phenomena in question. These are clear examples of the importance of a complex view and the need not to surrender to the terror of victimhood.

By the way, the law and the courts also take contributory-fault arguments into account in tort and criminal matters. None of this, of course, means that we won’t punish the perpetrator. Of course we will—but together with that, it’s important to clarify and analyze the situation that led to the harm. The fact that someone has contributory fault does not lessen the perpetrator’s responsibility. Even if I oppose provocative dress (or lack thereof), that doesn’t mean that someone who raped a woman dressed that way isn’t guilty or shouldn’t be punished. Both claims are true, and one must not come at the expense of the other.

Rape’s Halachic Status

Another example of emotionalist discourse in the Walder affair: in the public discussion we’re told that in the Torah, rape is a transgression as severe as murder, and therefore it’s astonishing that Haredim don’t rise up against such acts. People repeat again and again the verse “For as a man rises against his fellow… so is this matter,” said about rape. The claims against Haredi silencing and against problematic policies in handling these phenomena are justified. But even when a claim is justified, not every argument in its favor is correct. In the Torah, the rape passage is plainly about the rape of a betrothed maiden. The severe injury is to her marital bond with her betrothed (her monetary value in the ketubah?), not the mere violation of her innocence or sexual autonomy. From the perspective of Torah and halacha—like it or not—rape is not essentially different from consensual relations with a married or betrothed woman. It’s at most a prohibition of illicit relations, but not rape in the sense of violence (that only affects whether the maiden is also at fault—“but to the maiden you shall do nothing”). Some commentators and poskim expanded the scope (in ways I don’t find very convincing), but one certainly cannot blithely say that this is the Torah’s position.

I’m not claiming there’s no halachic prohibition here. There is “Love your fellow as yourself,” there’s the prohibition of injury, and perhaps shame damages—but the extra severity of the act, as we understand it today, doesn’t really exist in halacha. It’s no different from any other assault or injury to another. Dragging in contemporary discourse about rape and its meanings is ignorance or demagoguery.

Here too, as in many other places, moral motivation (usually very modern) influences how the Torah is read. That’s entirely legitimate to me—but precisely for that reason I see no value in recruiting the Torah to your side. As I’ve written more than once: if you want to say something on the moral plane, it’s simply unnecessary to harness the Torah—especially via the moral interpretation you attach to it—to support your view. You’ve decided the Torah sees this as a severe act because morally it seems severe to you, even though that’s not really written there. So just say it’s morally severe—period. Don’t enlist the Torah, if only because it isn’t true. It reminds me of those Hasidim who explain that all the great Torah scholars side with their Rebbe’s position—and when you bring a position of a Torah scholar who disagrees, the response is that he’s not one of the “greats.” Why? Because he doesn’t agree with the position of all the greats.

We must admit that the modern attitude toward rape is a product of contemporary morality. I’ll stress again that I fully identify with it and see rape as a very severe act—but deriving that from halacha or Torah seems absurd to me. This is part of the emotionalist brainwashing we all undergo.

By the way, that’s probably also why Haredim aren’t particularly alarmed by such acts. They know it’s not written in the Torah, and in their view what isn’t written in the Torah has quite limited standing (especially values they see as inventions of modern society). In their eyes, such acts are severe when they concern boy-children, because then it’s male-male intercourse (and unrelated to pedophilia, which the Torah doesn’t negatively address either; on the contrary, it seems indifferent). But harming girls is not such a severe halachic prohibition, and whether it’s rape or not doesn’t really matter. I assume no one here intends to teach Rabbi Gershon Edelstein or Haredi rabbis the Torah’s rape passage. What all those speakers who so learnedly quote the above verse know—surely they know as well.

Here you have yet another piece of complex thinking that is illegitimate when speaking about such topics. One can reject the act because of identification with modern values—without being secular on the one hand, and without recruiting the Torah on the other. Simply because it is a shocking moral injustice; and I, as a religious person, am appalled even by acts that do not contradict halacha—or at least are not very severe from a halachic standpoint.

Other Aspects of the Affair

Several discussions arise regarding this affair: Was it right to publish the allegations, and when? Is this not lashon hara (defamatory speech)? Can one render judgment without evidence tested in a court of law? Should the risk of prompting a suicide weigh in publication? And many more. Here too, one senses that the debate is very emotional, and each side expresses a very predictable stance. The opposing side of course rails against him, paints him as a vile villain, and presents the duty to publish as self-evident, with the victims naturally recruited to support it. But each such question must be addressed on its merits in a complex and balanced way, as befits hard questions. (On publication and causing death, see my very brief remarks here.) In this column I chose not to enter these questions, because their principled dimensions are fairly straightforward (contrary to what the discourse suggests—again, emotionalism skews it), and I don’t know the particulars of this specific case.

On Emotionalism

Emotionalism does not necessarily express moral sensitivity. In most cases it’s simply superficiality. Conversely, a cold discussion does not necessarily express indifference. It’s conducted coolly because it’s important to analyze complex issues in a cold and rational manner, which can sometimes seem alienated and detached. I’m entirely in favor of detached, non-emotional discussion. But that doesn’t mean extinguishing emotions or being uninvolved; rather, it’s a demand to try to detach emotions for the sake of the discussion. Afterwards, when we meet the victims, it’s indeed appropriate to express empathy and feeling—but not at the expense of a complex presentation (as Bokovza demands).

Despite—and perhaps precisely because—we’re dealing with sensitive and emotional phenomena, and people feel that emotional involvement is a condition for understanding the situation, in my view an emotional approach and discourse usually hamper understanding. The better path is to employ empathy that helps us grasp what happened and people’s feelings, and then detach from it to discuss the situation with coolness and reason (a discussion that takes into account, among other things, the insights we gained from our empathy).

I’ll bring a few further examples to sharpen the point.

Halachic Coolness

I’ve often said that one of the least understood aspects of halachic and religious practice in secular eyes is its coolness and rationalism. Contrary to the image that secularism is rational and religiosity emotional, on the ground the situation is quite the opposite. The secular world is very emotional, and the halachic world is generally cold and rational (even if it rests on assumptions not always understood by those operating within it).

A prime expression of this is the cold halachic treatment of infuriating situations. For example, according to halacha, a father may marry off his minor daughter to whomever he wishes, including a man with severe boils, or sell her as a maidservant. As is known, halacha assigns the status of mamzerut to children born of prohibited incestuous relations, even though these children did nothing—condemning them to a lifetime of misery. Halacha permits intercourse with a captive woman in war, and more. Usually, when one comes to study these topics, voices of great outrage are raised. By the way, this happens mainly when studying them with women (yes, yes, I know this is not politically correct, but as noted, I don’t tend to capitulate to dictates about discourse). In such cases I try to explain that the halachic discussion must be conducted coolly, and the general judgment postponed to afterwards.

The halachic discussion doesn’t address what is fitting to do, but what is permitted, obligatory, or forbidden to do. On top of that, one can add layers of “fitting,” “moral,” or “immoral,” and the like. When dealing with questions of prohibition, obligation, and permission, everyone can understand that the debate must be cold. In my personal view, even questions of what’s fitting and moral should be conducted in that way.

Thus, for example, a discussion once arose about a Kohen’s wife who was raped, and the poskim obligated her and her husband to separate. They added tragedy upon tragedy, and the public discourse was so emotional that it was impossible to conduct it. Time and again people asked me: “Tell me, don’t you have a heart?!” And time and again I explained that those poskim certainly do have a heart—and in fact I suspect it was far harder for them than for the armchair moral knights, since they had to rule the halacha for this couple and bring about the tragedy with their very words. But it’s not that they’re indifferent to the moral and emotional dimensions of the situation. They have halachic considerations beyond feelings and morality (and in general, equating feeling with morality is itself an emotionalist bias). Again, there is room for criticism and disagreement—but the emotionalism of the discourse doesn’t allow it to proceed. The sense was that there are things one is not allowed to say.

For example, halacha can permit a father to marry off his daughter to a man with severe boils and at the same time say that it is not fitting to do so (and in practice a court will sometimes compel him not to). This is the difference between permitted and fitting. Why would halacha permit it? Several possibilities can be raised—for instance, the need to allow a father to secure his daughter’s economic and social situation after his death. In the ancient world, an unmarried woman—especially one without property from home—could find herself in a very difficult economic and social position. Think of a young girl being told to marry such a man, and of course she rebels against it—and quite rightly from her perspective. But the father sees and understands her interest better than she does and knows what will happen if she doesn’t marry. Of course, in modern eyes it’s very hard to explain this to people. The discourse becomes emotional, and the curtain falls.

In some cases emotionalism leads to errors on the moral plane; in others, to errors on the halachic plane (because people illegitimately mix it with morality). I assume you all understand I have no problem with critiques of halacha—but gut-level discourse is always harmful. The halachic debate is conducted rationally and coolly, without empathy and without emotional involvement in the situation—and in my view, it’s very good that way. Of course, when ruling on a specific case, it’s important to understand the emotional dimensions; but even there, the debate should be cold. By the way, the same goes for legal discussion—just like in halacha.

Rulings from Outside and from Within

In the third book of my trilogy I discussed two approaches to halachic ruling. Some argue that the decisor must be involved in the situation and aware of its emotional aspects. Other approaches favor his detachment from the situation. It seems to me both sides are partly right. The decisor must be aware of these aspects, but detach from them when rendering judgment. Such detachment doesn’t mean ignoring them; it means taking them into account in the decision-making process, but making the decision with the intellect rather than the heart.

I once mentioned a question a student involved in matchmaking asked me: should he follow his heart or his head? I told him that decisions are always made with the head; making decisions with the heart is, to me, like making decisions with the ears, the feet, or the fingernails. It’s simply not the right organ for deciding. The intellect should of course take the emotional dimensions into account when deciding—but the heart’s role is only to pass data to the intellect, not to decide in its place.

There are cases where a young rabbi serves a young, liberal community, and a halachic question arises regarding his community. He goes to consult his teacher, an elder who sits in a yeshiva. In such cases, in my opinion, the elder rabbi should advise him but leave the decision to him. He doesn’t know the situation and doesn’t necessarily understand it. He doesn’t know the consequences of each decision; therefore, he shouldn’t be the one to make it. In this sense, involvement matters. But at the same time, it’s certainly important to go consult the elder rabbi and hear what he has to say. Precisely because of the distance, he has considerable advantages in making such a decision. For a detailed discussion, see my article on Halachic Rulings in the Holocaust.

From this perspective, one can understand why the model of a “Council of Torah Sages” that makes strategic decisions for a political party has great advantages. Knesset members are, by nature, inside the cauldron and the situation—but precisely for that reason they’re tainted and don’t think coolly and logically, and especially not in a way detached from personal interests. Those who sit far away have a cooler and more balanced view; they’re not involved in the situation, and precisely because of that they can make considered decisions about it. The MKs should bring the question, present the arguments and different sides, and of course the implications of each decision—but the decision itself is better made by someone sitting at a remove.

In the article cited above, I noted the limits of this approach. In situations where it’s clear the decisor cannot understand the situation and its meaning even if it’s described to him (as in extreme situations during the Holocaust), it’s indeed not right to leave the decision to him. Thus, for example, it’s more appropriate that a rabbi in the ghetto make the decision, rather than someone outside who cannot truly understand what’s happening and the implications of his ruling. But the rabbi who’s there and making the decision must do so with his head, not his heart. His advantage lies in understanding the facts—but he must not let the heart decide. The consideration should be logical and cool.


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87 תגובות

  1. It should be added that the media is partly to blame for exaggerating the harm of sexual assault, which in itself makes people feel that it is more terrible than it really is.

    1. Moishe, I assume your words stem from a lack of information. Please kindly read the research literature regarding the effects of sexual assault and then determine the media's influence on the matter. Even in World War I, they didn't understand why soldiers after the war didn't function, they blamed them, gave them electric shocks and shouted at them. Later, they recognized the phenomenon as post-traumatic stress disorder.

  2. I once heard Mr. Moshe Mordechai Schlossinger zt”l give advice for life from Rabbi Tzatzik. I think 1. Don’t argue with someone who is right. 2. And not with someone who thinks he is right.

  3. To Rabbi Michael,

    Regarding the following quote from yours:

    “We must admit that the modern attitude towards rape is a product of contemporary morality. I will emphasize again that I completely identify with it and see rape as a very serious act, but to derive it from the Halacha or the Torah seems absurd to me. This is part of the same emotional brainwashing that is being done to all of us.

    Incidentally, this is probably also the reason why Haredim are not really frightened by such acts. They know that it is not written in the Torah, and from their perspective, what is not written in the Torah has a rather limited status (especially values that seem to them to be inventions of modern society). From their perspective, such acts are serious when it is against male children, because then it is male intercourse (and not related to pedophilia, for which there is also no negative attitude in the Torah. On the contrary, it seems to be indifferent to it). But harming girls is not such a serious Halacha prohibition, and rape or not rape really does not matter. I assume that no one here intends to teach Rabbi Gershon Edelstein or the Haredi rabbis the Torah portion of rape. What all the speakers who so eloquently quote the above verse know, he must also know”

    I think you are misinterpreting (and also making light of) the reaction of some of the Haredi public. This is not about some kind of consistency in attitude towards non-consensual sexual acts or towards minors, according to what is or is not written in the Torah. The Haredi media (press, rabbinical comments, pashaquils) shout vehemently against the Internet, movies, smartphones and lack of modesty in dress and the laws of uniqueness. What are the halachic prohibitions on this matter? “You shall not be transgressed”? Is that right? The prohibitions of the rabbis? Well. The same prohibitions apply to the acts you described, along with a nice combination of several other prohibitions. Where does a smartphone come from in the Torah? Where does the Internet come from in the Torah? For some reason, towards the phenomena of rape, any sexual contact that is not with consent, and sexual contact with minors under threat and exploitation - there is almost silence, and the references do not come close to the scale on the above issues. Why?
    My hypothesis is that this is not a "different complex perception", but simply fear, denial and anger at those who dare to bring these issues out because it threatens the autonomy of the Haredi public. (This is also the reason for the opposition to the Internet and smartphones, it threatens their autonomy).

    See the letter issued on behalf of Greg Edelstein. There is a reference to the prohibition of suicide (in a footnote in the last paragraph) to the need to turn to professionals after "consulting with a rabbi" (without any mention of a prohibition or source from the Torah on the subject of prohibitions on incest) and to the prohibition of "whitewashing" Face. Where are the rest of the commandments from the Torah? You shall not stand for the blood of your neighbor? (There has been evidence for 10 years, is there no point in encouraging those who have been injured or who know about it to turn away?), Prohibitions on incest? (After all, these are also prohibitions..). But the main thing is about “whitening the face” (which does not meet the standard of “things written in the Torah”, and in exchange for the words of the sages about whitening the face, there are no less words of the sages about the prohibitions on incest)

    1. The first examples you gave are prohibitions on incest. But the seriousness of rape that is being talked about today is not because of the prohibition on incest in it. It is not perceived as a very serious offense to those who look at it through halakhic lenses.

      1. The fact is that prohibitions that are not written in the Torah (Internet, smartphone, laws of modesty) or that do not have the status of a Torah law (whitening the face) are given a different meaning, while sexual offenses that are no less serious halachically (being sexually aroused by touching a child, by seeing a naked person, or by killing a man's wife, which is a crime and will not be tolerated) are not given a similar treatment. Therefore, I do not understand why you claim some kind of consistent perception or adherence to halachic standards.

        1. Internet, smartphones, and modesty change political validity. I don't think that facial bleaching is treated very seriously. Doesn't anyone's wife receive similar treatment? Are you serious?

  4. There is confusion here, in my opinion.
    We are all familiar with the well-known distinction between emotion and reason.
    When we judge, we should, ostensibly, act with reason and suppress emotion, in order to reach more “correct” results.
    But what about the fact that judging is a human-emotional situation?
    In such a situation, if we do not activate our emotional system, we will not understand what is at stake.
    If I discuss the case of Haim Walder, or any other suspect of vulnerability, and discuss it in the same “state of mind” of someone discussing an issue in the Gemara, in which we emotionally and consciously detach ourselves from the case in question, it reaches absurdities.
    You have to connect with emotions in order to understand what is at stake.
    You have to feel the pain of the victims, the insult of denial, the fear of relatives and their denial, etc.
    Without identifying with these complex human situations, we will not understand at all what is at stake.
    It is like analyzing a question in mechanics, first you need to draw a diagram of all the forces acting in the problem, and only then do analytical analyses.
    The forces acting in a human situation will always be emotions. This is the driving force in every human story.
    But after that, you need to stop for a moment and activate the powers of analysis.
    I know friends who are brilliant at mathematics, and very weak at understanding human situations. Therefore, I would not suggest taking seriously the opinions of physics professors on matters that require emotional analysis.

  5. Yes. I read it and I know the genre of Beinishes who are obsessed with Gemara and don't realize that they are bad at understanding people.
    According to the Lithuanian approach, you take a person who is a genius in Gemara and let him rule on matters that require emotional intelligence, and boom! Social disaster.
    I think you yourself have already admitted that you are jealous of Asperger's, and therefore more or less meet the criteria, right?

    1. I have at least one advantage over all the "sensitive" people of all kinds. At least I read, understand, and respond to what is written. If that requires having Asperger's, then so be it.

    2. Understanding people is also a matter of the mind (emotional intelligence is intelligence). It is understanding. Emotionality is not understanding. It is emotionality and that's it. Autism is indeed a matter of lack of understanding and it is a matter of the mind. Understanding victimhood still does not change the complexity of the matter. Different people react to sexual abuse differently. In communist Russia, the rape of women who were under the rule of men (in the KGB and the like) was a routine matter and women did not make such a big deal out of it. There were worse things there than rape and they ate rape without salt. There is a difference between sensitivity and excitement.

  6. Rest in peace, share with them
    It's just a shame that you react emotionally:)

  7. Maybe the publisher of the post is aware of everything you wrote and all his claim to the privileged people is exactly what you wrote. Think logically, if not, at least remain consistent in your emotional activity (which is similar to the first part).

  8. Even in a completely ‘mathematical’ halakhic eye, how many prohibitions today are more severe than a wife, a nida or a male bed?
    The Haredi approach is more morbid – a male bed in rape will be treated with more forgiveness than a male bed with consent.

    This is the point that requires real analysis, which in my opinion stems from the essential definition of Harediism – aversion and ’ walls’ in the face of the modern secular world.

    1. If the child is under 9 years old, there is no male sexual intercourse and there is no prohibition at all. Not even from the rabbis. Just a recommendation to the court to close the loophole. He is not even obligated to do so.
      Formal halakha is a paradise for pedophiles.

  9. In all the discussion so far, you have talked about the coldness of the law and emotions. The discussion has been narrowed down to the scope of the offender, the victims, and their (more or less immediate) environment. But there is a larger scope – global – blasphemy in front of the entire world.
    Spawns like Walder or Moti Alon are probably found in every society / people / religion, and every human society has ways of dealing with both the offender and the victims. But the moment some of the leaders of this society treat the offender “with understanding”, and even try to protect him and save him from punishment – this is crossing boundaries, not of the law, but of humanity.
    About three years ago, I was sitting in front of the screen reading news on the website of some newspaper (“The New York Times” – have you heard of it?) and I saw a big headline, about an ultra-Orthodox sexual pervert in the newspaper's city, who was arrested and interrogated, and the leaders of his community put pressure on the assistant attorney general to close the case. News about sexual perverts usually doesn't appear on the front page of the aforementioned newspaper, but the story with the assistant attorney general – is very big news. And tens or hundreds of millions of people saw it like I did.
    I imagine that among the readers here there are those who don't watch movies or television, but among those who do (the majority of humanity) the association is immediate: organized crime. Mafia. And this is the headline.
    I was sitting in front of the screen and thought to myself: Is it possible to commit a greater blasphemy than that? Maybe slaughter children for blood for matzah? Or maybe my imagination is not rich enough?
    By the way: A few months later I saw a similar headline in another newspaper you may have heard of: The ”London Times”. I didn”t find enough strength to read the article itself.
    And then came the Litzman affair and the monster he helped, and on and on until today.
    I pray and hope that the appropriate reward will be given to these ”righteous” by those who are responsible for such things…

    1. I agree, but that's not what I was talking about here.
      And yet, it must be remembered that these people are usually not supported. The Haredim have a lack of trust in the secular and gentile legal system, they have a naive belief in their own people that it is impossible for them to have done such things (those who are not exposed to the media live innocently with such a consciousness). And there are laws against defamation, etc. that they believe prohibit publishing even if the things are true. And finally, there is an understandable (even if unjustified) desire to protect people.
      But you are absolutely right about the blasphemy that is created in the bottom line.

    2. The question is whether this pervert harmed Haredi children from this community or outside it. Because the Haredi (and outside the Jewish state, at least in the past) perceive themselves as a separate people and are supposed to have their own autonomy. They turn to outside authorities only when there is no other choice. The mafia harms people outside of it. Did it bother anyone that the mafia closes sins between its people and themselves within itself? And there is no point in talking about blasphemy because humans are not worth much. The State of Israel could be wiped out here and millions would die here from war and the New York Times and the London Times would not be moved at all. The human race is for the most part stupid and wicked and there is no need to consider the opinions of those who have no opinion.

      I don't think the leaders of Haredi society are understanding of the offender. That's only on the outside. They are simply protecting one of their own from their enemies on the outside who are supposedly interested in their "good". In Israel it is certainly like that.

  10. Hello
    Regarding the attitude of the halakha regarding the rape of an unmarried girl, I disagree with you, the case of Dina and Nablus is clear enough to conclude that the practice of coercion in non-consensual sexual relations is serious. And although the halakha do not deduce from the Book of Genesis, we were raised with the perception that the actions of the fathers are a sign for the sons and the Book of Genesis is called the Book of Righteousness because it is the cornerstone of our morality. Therefore, to say that the rape case is only that of an engaged girl in my opinion is incorrect thinking.

    1. Why do you need the book of Genesis? There are halachic prohibitions on this, and I mentioned this in the column.

  11. The Haredim chose to live in the world of the Eastern European town, at the end of the 18th century. They decided that this was the place and time when things were optimal. (In this they are very similar to the Christian Amish sect, except that they chose the East of Holland at the beginning of the 17th century).
    The problem is that the world has changed. And when a Jew does something bad, it is known not only in Joffitz and the surrounding villages, but sometimes throughout the entire world.
    Just because they do not consume modern media and do not know what is happening in the world, does not mean that the rest of the world does not see them. Even the ostrich already knows that burying its head in the sand will not save it from predators.
    About two years ago, an Israeli chef opened a restaurant in New York that was very successful and received sympathetic media coverage. In many places on the Internet (Facebook, etc.), anti-Semites responded: “Don't buy from Jews. They rape their children”.
    We can't even defend ourselves and claim that this is a false narrative.
    And for this, chief rabbis, yeshivot heads, and other Torah luminaries are responsible.
    Woe to us.

    1. In disgrace. The Western world is the one who will teach us how to lead a life of sexual celibacy and asceticism?
      Shame and disgrace. Of course, there are weeds and evils everywhere, but the Western world will preach morality to us about this as a society? There is no fence that this world has not breached, both in knowledge and as a society (now it is beginning to understand the damage…)

      1. Of course, it is only possible to criticize the Haredi society, but I think the outside world is not worthy of criticizing the field as a whole.
        (And the Christian world is no exception)

  12. The apparent understanding is that the rape of a betrothed girl is compared to murder because of the violation of the sexual autonomy of the woman who is in the possession of the husband and consequently of the husband's sexuality, if you will, in manhood. In a culture where ownership and control of the body and its derivatives are in the hands of the woman, the determination of murder is relevant in relation to the harm to the woman. Does the rabbi have another explanation for the comparison to murder?

    1. This is certainly not a halakhic consideration. The parallel to murder is probably because the three gravest crimes are parallel, and here it is a prohibition of nakedness. Taking a life is like taking a partner (perhaps there is a partner murder here).

  13. The rabbi's words are, according to the majority, correct.
    But I am surprised by the claim that the seriousness of a casual rape stems from a modern perspective. It is true that the crime of murder is committed against an engaged girl, but the Torah treats a casual rape as a very, very vile person - he is fined and deprived of the freedom of his married life (if we leave aside for a moment the question of why the hell the raped woman would want to live with him - apparently related to a different reality, as the rabbi described in Mukha Shechin). This is not the Torah's view of a mere slave who pays the bills and goes home.

    At most, one can argue that the seriousness stems from the Torah's harm to the woman's future because she becomes a second-class citizen, but this is already an unnecessary interpretation and even a bit too restrictive.

    1. And again, this is not to argue that if the Torah's attitude were different, we should also disregard it. It's just that in practice, this is how we would respond.

  14. I was unable to understand the rabbi's explanation for the Haredi silencing of rape cases.
    Even if we accept that halakhically, the rape of an unmarried girl is in the financial sphere and is not considered a serious offense, there is still, as the rabbi writes, a serious violation here.
    Does every issue that the Haredim clamor against necessarily fall under an explicit Torah prohibition?
    Does the amount of outcry that has arisen against the taxation of disposable utensils stem from a halakhic obligation or is washing dishes more serious than rape in the Haredi order of priorities?

    1. The Haredi are not silent. They are simply not willing to wash their dirty laundry in the public domain, and rightly so. They were interested in closing the whole matter within their own public, and that's it. The non-Haredi public does not understand that for the Haredi, exposure and openness to the secular public (and even the national religious public) means leaving the religion, which is the worst thing in the world (that is, that they will be killed and not be spared). And rape is less serious than murder. Therefore, they are not willing to use tools outside their public to deal with the matter. Therefore, when Haim and Dar are attacked from the outside, they are called upon to defend him. This is a natural thing that would happen in any family when one of their sons sins against another son in the family. It's not that they really think he is entitled. They are not willing for someone from the outside to dictate to them what to think and what to do, and rightly so. To receive moral sermons from a secular person in general is intolerable (I truly agree that a person who does not have the fear of God cannot be moral. At most, he can model morality, but when the moment of truth comes, he will collapse like a house of cards. The average Haredi does not necessarily have the fear of God (it depends on how connected he is to this society or how much contemplation and thought he has invested in the matter. But it is something that his society encourages him to do) but I highly doubt whether the average secular person or anyone can have the fear of God)

    2. Gabriel, I don't justify, I explain. The taxation provokes protest because it hurts the pocketbook. The severity of the halacha is not the only reason for action, even among the ultra-Orthodox.

  15. I also always thought that there was no difference in moral terms between rape and violent assault on a person (not just a slap. Beating to death). If you catch someone on the street and beat them to death and they end up in the hospital, is that less violent and humiliating than rape? And if they say that raping a woman is using her as an object, then isn't sadistic abuse of a person who derives pleasure from the beating the same as rape? And what does it matter that he derives pleasure from it? Even just violent beatings of a man on the street, such as kicking a person while he's on the floor, are no less humiliating, regardless of the degree of pleasure the beaters derive from it? The whole story around rape and its glorification and comparison to murder is simply female emotionalism. Their difficulty in recovering from it doesn't change the facts. It has a lot to do with the human ego. It's hard for people to recover from humiliation. But for someone who is willing to accept that such things can happen to them too, they will recover from it quickly (and it is a fact every day with men who are raped in prison), just as those who have been beaten to death recover. And if they don't recover from it quickly either, in any case, the level of severity of these two offenses is equal.

  16. Hello Rabbi Michael.
    I agree with the things written in the line, but I think you missed the main point that emerges from Bokobza's words, complexity is an inevitable part of our lives, everything we want to clarify is made up of sides here and there, what we try with our minds to sort out the claims and put them against each other and reach a conclusion, the problem is that it is difficult and takes time. There are very few people (like you) who, despite the difficult task, do it, and there are those (the absolute majority of us) who, due to the size and difficulty of the task, do not clarify or only half-clarify a third or a quarter.
    Bokobza addresses those who are lazy, for whom everything is complex and remains complex, and says: Go with your first intuition.
    And this is already an important philosophical question: Is a person's initial intuition correct most of the time? Of course, those who can, would do better if they continued and investigated until they came to a true opinion, but given the circumstances and the situation, should they remain idle (it is better to sit back and do nothing) or should they listen to the dictates of the heart, slightly mixed with immature reason, and take a stand?

    1. I don't think there is a clarification here between doubtful parties. Complexity is when both sides are right. And the perpetrator and the victims deserve sympathy and participation, and at the same time there may be complex circumstances surrounding his actions. There is no need to decide. You can live both sides.

      1. Example of a decision: Should we speak of his praise or hide it? It is true that in our minds we know and are aware of the complex circumstances, but in practice we must act in one way (sometimes).

  17. Most sentimentality is fake, a social amplification of weak emotions, and is designed to portray oneself as sensitive and considerate of others in order to gain social acceptance.
    In practice, consideration for others from genuine motives is rare and few, especially among those public sentimentalists.

  18. https://youtu.be/bXY0lw5LA9g

    I can testify that I have been reading and hearing everything on this issue for a while now, both in the secular and the ultra-Orthodox media, and in the national religious sphere, and although I am ultra-Orthodox, in my opinion, of all the articles, articles, interviews, letters, videos, talkbacks, and sermons from rabbis that I have heard, the sermon that most clarifies and makes sense of this entire complex issue is by Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira on Channel 7 and is on YouTube (I provided a link to it above). It includes, in the middle of the sermon, a reference to the words of Rabbi Gershon Edelstein and an explanation of his leadership, including a halachic reference to "evil speech" that whitens the face of his friend in public and "to drive out the evil from among you." I will admit, and I am not ashamed, that after hearing his lesson, for the first time I realized that apparently this is also an issue in which there are those who have specialized in this matter from their handling of these issues for many years, and therefore when they speak, they understand that they are more authoritative on this issue than others who have not acquired experience in these matters and justify his authority. On this

    And to our rabbi I ask where one can see what the halachic jurists' attitude is to the verse that everyone cites as evidence from the Torah that sexual assault is equal to murder, which the rabbi here denied. In short, what are its sources?
    I don't know because I haven't checked. I can only tell you that there is a yeshiva head who treats a youth who drops out of Zoharim, as I think he bravely tells about a prolonged injury that affected him in his youth. His teacher, and when they told him this verse, his response was that it was a pity that he didn't physically murder me once, and that's because from his perspective and his suffering, he feels murdered anew every day, so I would really love to see the sources.

    1. Such harm is a serious moral matter. My argument is on the halakhic level. Therefore, the example from the rabbi is irrelevant to the discussion.
      No need for any jurists and sources. See the verses in Deuteronomy 12:2, which speak of an engaged girl and her punishment for incest (and you shall do nothing to a girl. Why do anything to her if she is free?).

  19. In the court of the Jewish People's Court of the State of Israel,

    It is impossible to discuss such a subject without terrible anxiety. On the one hand, there is the claim of "you shall not stand on the blood of your neighbor" in ignoring the pain of the victims and fear for future victims. On the other hand, there is the grave fear of accusing an innocent person. After all, it is impossible to convict a person of a serious offense without the prosecution witnesses being thoroughly investigated and the defendant and his defense attorneys being given the right to "cross-examine" the prosecution witnesses and present their version.

    And here is the terrible problem. As a victim, the victim needs to feel that they are believed and that they are not being accused, but as a "prosecution witness" he must undergo a "two-and-a-half-hour investigation" Without prejudice, and after all this hell, there is still the fear that there will be a "reasonable doubt" that will not allow a conviction, and the victims find themselves tortured again for nothing.

    This inherent contradiction inevitably leads to a situation in which a significant number do not file a complaint, and even when a complaint is filed, 90% of the cases end without an indictment being filed, and even when an indictment is filed, the road to conviction is long.

    Then there remains the path of judgment by the media, public opinion, and social networks, which, if the author of the post complains about them being "too emotional," I think it is more correct to complain about "insensitivity," not towards the complainants nor towards the victims, a jungle where everyone preys on everyone else.

    The law has a middle ground, and it is the judgment of the ‘presumption of innocence’. On the one hand, the accused is given the ‘presumption of innocence’, and on the other hand, the public is presented with the concerns that exist regarding him and restrictions are imposed on him so that he does not endanger himself. For example, a teacher who asks and answers (early edition, coffee mark) about a teacher whose students testified that he harmed them, even though they were young at the time of the act, and even though the testimony was taken without his presence – it can be taken into account and prevented from continuing to serve as a teacher lest he harm the students, because the intention here is not to disqualify the person completely, but to prevent him from engaging in education that requires loyalty and special fear of God.

    The necessity of a “clear and present reason” also allows for restrictions to be imposed on the suspect in the early stages of the hearing, when on the one hand they announce that there is suspicion, but on the other hand they make it clear that this is a doubt awaiting clarification. For example, Rabbis Silman and Rosenberg (from Rabbi Karlitz’s court, on the 2nd of Tevet) ruled that since there are suspicions as to Walder’s books, there is doubt about the kashrut of his books, a doubt that requires clarification in a court before which both parties will appear.

    A sensitive combination of “respect him and doubt him” was in the notice to surfers regarding the matter of Chaim Walder that was published on the “Hidabrot” website when the affair broke out. On the one hand, they say that, according to an investigation, suspicions of serious acts have been raised against him and that is why the site is stopping publishing his articles and books until the suspicions are clarified, but on the other hand, they say that they wish it would be clear that these things were not done.

    This is a kind of 'middle way' that is aware and announces a 'cloud of suspicion' against the suspected offender, but on the other hand is careful not to impose a final conviction on him without a thorough legal investigation.

    With regards, Eliam Fishel Werkheimer

    Another way to balance the concerns is through mediation, which is used in most cases in the 'Tekna Forum', in which the complainants are first listened to sensitively and then the complainants are confronted with the allegations. Rabbi Sherlow says that it usually turns out that the gap is not large, and ways are found to minimize the risk, for example, transferring the nylon to work that does not involve direct contact with students, etc.

    1. And as it turned out, the general legal system also does not have the means to bring about punishment in most cases, and as I mentioned – 90% of complaints end in the case being closed without indictment. A proper legal system – would prefer that a hundred criminals walk free, than that one innocent person be wrongfully punished.

      However, those who follow the Torah – have effective protective walls, namely the prohibitions of exclusiveness and keeping one's touch hidden, etc., which prevent in advance the presence of an offender and an injured person when they are not seen. If every boy and girl knew the prohibitions of exclusiveness and touching, and more than that, that they should be suspicious and avoid contact with unfamiliar people, and if they encounter problems, they should share with their parents and teachers without shame – The child himself will be the best ’protector’ for himself.

      A Jewish child needs to know his strength and power. Just as Abraham at the age of three knew how to rebel against the idolatry that all the ‘adults’ tempted him to – one must know that there are also bad people in the world or, to distinguish them, mentally ill people, and a child can also be the ‘responsible adult’ for a Jew to &#8216say no’ and stay away from those who harm him. Even a person who usually looks good and charming – may be suffering from a serious mental illness that leads him to terrible acts, and therefore one should not be ashamed to say &#8216no’ and share with his parents and teachers what happened. It can also be a kindness to the abuser, as early exposure may bring him to mental health care before he deteriorates into a state of 'no return'.

      Best regards, Apoor

      1. Apoor, your words are good, even if they are not enough, but in Israel, God Almighty demands the correction of reality from adults, primarily the leaders of the generation and its judges and rabbis, and not from children. If children realize that the Torah community is not taking proper care of them, some of them will withdraw from the community and seek their way elsewhere. Only a few generations ago in Eastern Europe, many teachers in the Khidir were cruel people who would beat their students with cruel blows for no reason, and this is one of the reasons why most Ashkenazi Jews have thrown off the yoke of Torah and mitzvot. God Almighty will always seek the persecuted.

        True words from Rabbi Yosef Yitzhak Jacobson:

        1. And this is for Yehuda –

          Moreover, I wrote in my first response ‘A Thin Path Between Two Abysses’, paragraphs 5-7, that even before the accusation is proven – there is room for warning and distancing so that there is no harm. However, as the facts become clearer and the doubt diminishes – the warning will be taken with greater force.

          Best regards, Afur

          1. Unfortunately, for many years, in practice, they did not speak up or distance themselves, even though there was evidence, but chose not to believe the victims and told them to keep quiet, or even ostracized them. All those rabbis and public figures who did not listen, and still do not listen, should go to every victim and ask for their forgiveness and pardon. Yeruham acknowledges and leaves.

            1. Assistance in the ruling of the court of justice of the HaGar”sh Eliyahu can be found in articles by Rabbi Yehuda Glick (formerly the rabbi of Safed and Petach Tikva) and Rabbi David Pendel (head of the Hesder Yeshiva in Sderot) – both on the ‘Channel 7’ website.

              Best regards, Apo”r

              1. In the recently published Tachumin Mev, there are articles on the subject by Rabbi Shlomo Dichovsky and Rabbi Yair Frank.

                Best regards, Apoor

            2. Apoor,

              All the things you wrote are true, and every judge should know them. Unfortunately, there is an ongoing reality, in which those who were truly harmed and not those who spread falsehoods, claim again and again that they are not being listened to and that they are being silenced, most of whom are unwilling to testify because they are afraid of their persecutors or because they have lost faith in the system or in people in general. Their general claim must be addressed with humility and attentiveness. To listen means to listen, to hear, to internalize, to ask for forgiveness, to begin to make amends.

              According to the court secretary, one of the witnesses burst into bitter tears after her testimony, and when the judges told her that she was not guilty, she said: “My tears are not because of past troubles, but out of hope that perhaps a turnaround is beginning here. My tears are because this is the first time in twenty years that rabbis believe me that I have come to testify about what I have been through. The first time that they have not told me that I should keep quiet or something more serious than that. Thank you, you have made a big change for me in relation to this whole society. My family has ostracized me and none of them are in touch with me anymore because I decided I don't want to be silent anymore.

            3. Maybe you are mixing up gender and non-gender.

              In a formal court, the prosecution must submit the list of witnesses in advance and cannot add witnesses later (only the defense can add surprise witnesses).
              Therefore, the prosecution is clever and lists anyone who may have information on the list of witnesses (the precedent is the Olmert trial, where the prosecution listed hundreds of witnesses and in the end the prosecution stood and fell on the single testimony of Shula Zaken)

              The witnesses in the trial in question did not come on their own initiative and the vast majority of them did not even come to testify.
              The witnesses in the Olmert trial did not claim harm from Olmert and yet the prosecution added and listed hundreds of witnesses because they might be able to add another shred of evidence.

              This is not similar to the Walder case where 15 different testimonies claiming that *they were directly harmed* were collected before the article appeared in Haaretz, and to these were added 7 additional complaints (total 22) to testify with Rabbi Eliyahu.
              In the meantime, the number of complainants has already reached 25 and all of them are complaining about direct harm, not what they saw/heard…

            4. In response to ‘Between One-off and Serial’, paragraph 3, line 8
              … In the B”B who were asked to ‘sit on the podium’…

            5. A letter from the rabbis of the ‘Torat HaAretz Tuba’ was published on the ‘Kippa’ website, dated 3rd Shvat 5772, which stated, among other things:
              ‘We wish to express our support and appreciation for Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu Shalit’a, who did not shy away and worked in collaboration with great rabbis from all sectors, to save the oppressed and harmed from all sectors. This was done carefully and meticulously according to Torah law and after due investigation. When treatment of Sana– is ineffective, the words and their evil deeds are published, so that the harm does not continue. We strengthen his hand for finding the ability to go forth with courage to purify the camp of Israel and thereby save many souls…
              And signed:
              Rabbi Chaim Druckman, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Yaakov Ariel, Rabbi Aryeh Shtro, Rabbi Yaakov Shapira and more.

              With regards, Apo”r

    2. 'טהרת המחנה כפולה היא' - מדברי הרב טאו בנושא says:

      In the letter of explanation of Rabbi Tau, written following his meeting with Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu (in the article “Parashat Chaim Walder” after the storm his words caused, Rabbi Tau in the letter of explanation, on the website “Kippa”), Rabbi Tau clarifies our dual obligation, on the one hand to act firmly to prevent harm, and on the other hand to avoid a culture of “shaming” and sentencing a suspect without trial. I will quote a few paragraphs here:

      The path he recommends is:
      “There is no dispute that when there is a fear of harm to a man or woman, We must muster up courage, and uphold ourselves “You shall not rise up against anyone”, in order to eradicate the act of evil, and this includes the obligation to immediately contact the police who will investigate and clarify the matter in depth. Contacting the police is not only to punish the sinner, but also to prevent him from harming others. This is how I have always guided and practiced, and this is how it is appropriate to act today’.

      But the investigation of suspicions is not supposed to be done ‘by holding field courts’ for every person suspected… Just as we are obligated to ensure that when there are suspicions, they are examined in depth, without bias and without harming those who feel that they have been harmed– so we have a parallel obligation not to allow the judgment of a person suspected without exhausting the investigations and examinations according to law…. Just as a person who has committed serious acts must spend many years behind bars, so a person who has not committed serious acts must be treated by professionals and integrated into his community and family.

      All handling of these matters should be entrusted to distinguished courts, in which judges who sit on the bench serve. It is known that in order to warn a person, there may be no need for certainty, and the court dealing with the matter can decide that it is necessary to "immediately and publicly announce the matter, and can pronounce his sentence according to the law of the Torah according to the evidence and the presence of the parties."

      All of the above is during the life of the suspect, but after the death of a person, there is no need to warn him, and if the court believes that his sentence should be pronounced, It is necessary to prove this according to Torah law in a court of law, by qualified rabbis who serve as judges or have served as judges.

      And Rabbi Tao concludes:
      “Let us cleanse our camp from the entire defect of the covenant, from the defect of the tongue, and from all the defects of foreign spirits that harm the purity of our camp and turn the upper ones down and the lower ones up.”

      I have brought here some of the things, and it is worth reviewing the things in their entirety, as they were brought in the article by Avichai Israel (on the “Kippa” website)

      With blessings, Yaron Fishel Ordner

      1. This letter of explanation is nonsense. There is a recording in which Rabbi Tao is heard saying clear things that everything is a conspiracy because Shoulder hurt Aharon Barak, and the truth is that there is nothing and there was nothing, like with Katsav. He keeps saying that Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu is a McCarthyist. So please don't confuse our minds with apologies and clarifications. The man is insane and probably suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. It seems that rapid hospitalization is needed here, as are his foolish followers who follow him like slaves in a chimney. A strict cult. A”a column 19.

        1. To Ramada”a – Shalom Rav,

          Between the words you quoted and the letter I referred to, there was a meeting in which ‘the arrangements were made’ and the two apparently reached a mutual understanding, following which the ‘letter of explanation’ was drafted, so ‘the last word’ is taken; and there is no point in ‘bringing up’ things that were said ‘in the era of Ritcha’ and were not intended for publication in the first place.

          In the letter, Rabbi Tao refrains from referring to a specific case, but rather establishes the guiding principle for handling harm and suspicions of harm.

          On the one hand, Rabbi Tao says that the victim should be treated seriously and the police should be contacted to punish and deter, and there is a situation where even without certainty of guilt, the suspicions can be published because of a ‘extreme instinct’, but this requires a decision by an authorized court.

          On the other hand, Rabbi Tao says that a social atmosphere of a lynching trial should not be created by ‘public opinion’, while prohibiting the expression of an opinion supporting the suspect's innocence. An atmosphere in which anyone who teaches defense of a suspect – is automatically denounced as ’ignoring the suffering of the victims’.

          In fact, Rabbi Tao says what you say in this post. Congratulations on your determination to know a great deal 🙂

          With blessings, Yifa”r

          1. A photocopy of Rabbi Tao's letter, written in response to Rabbi Boaz Kahane's question, can be viewed on the ‘Router’ website and the ‘Srugim’ website.

            1. If I've hit on his little idea, I'm starting to get worried. Maybe my mind is starting to go wrong too, R”L.

              This "clarification" letter can only convince the idiots of the Delia cult, because it was written as a clarification to a question from someone. As if it explains what he said, but doesn't repeat it. There is no clarification in this letter, since the letter does not clarify what was said in the conversations in question (Aharon Barak's plots, there is nothing in these accusations, I repeat this again and again for publication, everything is like with Katsav and more and more "pearls") but says other things.
              The fact that he presents this as a "clarification letter" means that he is like a dog that has returned to the cage and is returning to his foolishness. He is like those politicians who were caught in their own mistakes and instead of apologizing and repeating them, they explain that their words were “taken out of context”. After all, it is clear from listening to the recording that nothing there was taken out of context. This guy's response will be when he says I made a mistake and I already apologize to the public and Rabbi Eliyahu, goes to a psychiatrist for treatment and first of all disperses the cult of fools who are after me. A sinner's answer is accepted from the moment he breaks his mistakes.
              And in general, I say that I really do not talk about him in terms of making a confession or an apology, and all the appeals to him to apologize and the protests make me laugh. I do not protest his words because he is a sick man who needs treatment. And probably his followers too (and if it weren't for Demisphina, I would say that anyone who sees him as a great man should also check his sanity). If a man stands in the market and shouts, "I am Napoleon Bonaparte from Corsica, charge after me on Bleicher and Wellington," I would not ask him to apologize and I would not protest his words. I would hospitalize him. And as for the guy Didan, because of his damage and his blunders, perhaps forced hospitalization should be considered. The man loses touch with reality and logic, which does not interfere with his last blunder, as it is said: "My father will torment you with whips."

          2. In ’Router’ we gave Rabbi Tao's letter a title that summed up Rabbi Tao's position in a few words:’For the victims; Against the field trial’

            Best regards, Yaffo”r

            1. Indeed, a title that sums up his ”clarification” letter well. But what about that and his previous words? He says simple things here that everyone knows and writes about, but does not address the nonsense he blurted out in his previous statements. Just like I wrote.
              If he had said that he was for the victims and against the field trial, no one would have tweeted. But that is not what he said. That is what he wrote now.

              1. And it is possible that Rabbi Tao did not retract his mistakes, but decided not to continue the polemic, perhaps also due to the fact that most of the religious Zionist rabbis, led by Rabbi Ariel and Rabbi Lior, support Rabbi Eliyahu's teaching. The head of the Har HaMor Yeshiva, Rabbi Amiel Sternberg, also supports Rabbi Eliyahu's position.

                It turns out that this is why Rabbi Tao decided to stop expressing his opinion publicly regarding Walder's specific case, but to define in principle the guiding principles for handling the issue.
                :Refer the suspicions to the police or to a court of great Torah experts and those with experience in judging, and to avoid being judged by public opinion.

                With best wishes, Rabbi

      2. There is a big difference between Rabbi Tau and Rabbi Michi. Rabbi Tau denies going to the media (which he calls a field court), while Rabbi Michi requires going to the media. There is support for Rabbi Michi's method from the beginning of the Ketubot, in which the virgin is summoned on Wednesday so that if there is a problem, they can go to the court on Thursday so that a voice can be heard and additional witnesses can come.

        1. I also agree that caution is needed in advertising and whitewashing, certainly as long as things have not been proven. One must also make sure that advertising is necessary and beneficial. But under these limitations, I certainly think that advertising should be done and should not be spared. He is persecuting and is permitted and should be harmed, and it is worth saving his potential victims. Certainly after the matters have been clarified in the Jewish Court (Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu).

          1. הבעייתיות בהכרזה על מסוכנות בלי יכולת שימוע או סינגור (והצעת כיוון לפיתרון) says:

            In the case of the halakhic Bishvat P'B

            I will not enter into a discussion of halakhic concepts, but on the face of it, proper legal conduct requires a right to a hearing, which is also reserved for suspects in the most serious acts. Not only a conviction in a criminal proceeding, but also a hearing on an arrest or deportation order – require giving the suspect the right to representation by an attorney who will teach the accused a right. Likewise, an administrative disqualification due to the suspect's unreliability – requires the right to a hearing and representation by an attorney, and it is certainly not appropriate to ‘shaming’ someone who defends the suspect in a serious crime.

            Exceptions to the sweeping right to a hearing are situations in which there is a fear of disrupting the investigation – Then there are situations in which the suspect is prevented from meeting with a lawyer and is not given information on which the investigation is based. Even in cases of fear of a terrorist act, there are situations in which the suspect is prevented from meeting with a lawyer or is subjected to administrative detention or deportation.

            The good side of these situations is that the restriction of the "right to be heard" is for a fixed period of time and requires a decision by a judge who is not part of the team of investigators and prosecutors, who will approve the temporary restriction of the suspect's rights. The judge in this case is also supposed to be a "kind of defense attorney" who does not allow the prosecution to do whatever it wants.

            According to this proverb, there is room to suggest two things similar to the situation of declaring a suspect dangerous because they fear that he will know who is complaining against him. The "declaration of dangerousness" must be timed For a period of one or two years, towards the end of which a new hearing will be held to examine whether he is still dangerous or has corrected his ways.

            Likewise, the court should have a separation between the ‘prosecution team’ whose role is to seek the ‘right side’ and the ‘judgment team’ which should also seek the ‘right side’ and challenge the complainants with pointed questions. The best thing for the court is to have a third team, a ‘defense team’ who will not be the suspect's representatives so that they do not frighten the complainants, but who will fulfill the public duty ‘and save the witness’ with the same zeal as the prosecution team.

            In these two reservations – Timing and separation between defense and trial – the ‘declaration of danger’ process would be more just in terms of both truth and ’visibility’

            Best regards, Eliam Fish”l Werkheimer

    3. On YouTube, you can watch the instructive lesson of Rabbi Binyamin Tabadi, head of the Raanana Rabbinical Training Court, “The Fundamentals of Halacha for Dealing with Sexual Harassment Claims.”

      Best regards, Apoor

      1. In the S”D H’ B’ Shvat P”B

        The two options that Rabbi Tao raised in his letter as an address for the complaint - contacting the police or the B”D - can lead to a fair investigation of the complaint while hearing both sides, but the criminal (or quasi-criminal) investigation itself is likely to undermine relations within society and family in a way that will intensify the harm to the victims. Therefore, the ‘Forum Tekna’ encourages reaching a mediation between the complainant and the victim, in an effort to favor the path of rehabilitation.

        From the island of Teme, the Ministry of Education prefers that teachers who encounter a fear of harm (and by law must report to the police or a social worker), the Ministry of Education prefers to refer to a social worker, because they have more professional tools to handle the case gently and discreetly with the aim of restoring and not destroying. The social workers have the option of contacting the Exemption Committee, which exempts about 50% of cases from the obligation to report to the police, in order to resolve the problem gently and in a way that benefits everyone.

        Best regards, Apoor

          1. On the need for an “adversarial investigation” in the presence of the accused, Rabbi Aviner writes in the article “10 Brief Notes on the Chaim and Dar Case: Dated 24th Tevet 5772 (on the “Srougim” website):

            A. Everything written below about Chaim and Dar is based on the current state of our knowledge. If new information becomes available, we will have to reexamine it.

            B. Every person is presumed innocent until proven otherwise, which is called in Gentile law the “presumption of innocence.” Not that he is presumed to be evil, and he must prove that he did not commit a crime. So far, nothing has been proven.

            C. Proof should be made, not by the media or social networks, but in a court that makes a demand and investigation, that is, an “adversarial investigation” in the presence of the other party, “hearing between your brothers”.

            D. So far, women's complaints have not been investigated in court in an adversarial manner as

            E. The only woman who came to court said that she had committed adultery with him, and since the husband believed – that was enough for him to be obligated according to Halacha to divorce her. But it was not proven in court that this was indeed the case.

            F. Regarding all the rumors that were spread about him – According to the law, there is indeed a status for rumors, but this is not said about a wave of rumors, and there are laws about what constitutes a reliable rumor. Furthermore, whoever has enemies - the rumors are not valid. And indeed, he had opponents for various reasons.

            G. The court in Bnei Brak, which has now dealt with the matter, did indeed write that if the things that were published about him are true - his books should not be read. But it added that as yet "the author has not stood up to investigation, and the claims have not stood up to investigation properly according to Torah law".

            H. Even if a person has committed a sin and committed a crime, this is not a reason to publicly lynch him and slander him widely, which of course also harms his family. Especially when nothing has been proven according to law.

            I. As for his suicide, some of the jurists state that a suicide should not be judged by the severity of his sentence, because we assume that he lost his sanity due to distress.

            J. Therefore, one can read his books.

            May God have mercy on him.

            1. Section 6, line 2
              … But this is not said about every rumor, and there are laws…

    4. On the 1st of Tevet

      In my response, “A Narrow Path Between Two Abysses,” I presented the path to “a clear understanding.” It is important to note that in the articles on “Tecumen” by Rabbi Dichovsky and Rabbi Yair Frank, it appears that in certain situations it is possible to reach a certain clarification, even if it is “not in front of him.” It is important to study these articles carefully in order to get the full picture.

      Best regards, Apoor

      1. The ruling of Rabbi Eliyahu was also supported by Rabbi Lior and Rabbi Ariel. See the article: Rabbis of the "Good Land Torah" in Support of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, on the Channel 7 website.

        With best regards, Apoor

        1. Note, without knowing the details of the case and the halakhic side

          Rash Aviner's criticisms concern more a judge who has the authority to punish, from whom proven and visible objectivity and neutrality are required.

          But there is also an ‘investigative court’, which is convinced after a thorough investigation, hearing the numerous complaints, the version of the plaintiff, and the opinion of other professionals – that the complaints are justified and submits a ‘claimant’ statement,’ expressing the absolute submission of the plaintiffs.

          And here, the investigation is done thoroughly in consultation with Torah luminaries, striving to examine with due sensitivity also the side of the right.

          Best regards, Apoor

          In fact, my suggestion (above) to have a ‘prosecution team’ and a ’defense team’ may have been implemented here.

          1. And another note:

            Accepting testimony without the presence of the defendant does not necessarily contradict the ‘right to be heard’. This is the current practice in courts where the injured party testifies without the presence of the offender, so that the witness is not embarrassed by his grimace.

            Best regards, Apoor

            1. The double advantage of a ’prosecution statement’ from a potential ‘investigative court’. (b) strengthening the self-confidence of the complainants, which will allow them to approach a judicial body!

              Best regards, Apoor

              1. Line 1… from the ‘Investigative Court’: (a) Strengthening the warning to prevent casualties

  20. With apologies to Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira (and to the owner of the website for diverting the discussion from his words), his parable does not match the parable. He likened a woman who was murdered and before she returns her soul to her Creator she says, "So-and-so murdered me." And he asked, "Should we not believe her?" But the act itself is a fact that does not depend on her statement (she was murdered) and only the identity of the murderer depends on her statement, and we have no objective evidence that something actually happened and someone was raped, only the words of the raped women. Unless we consider their psychological state as evidence... In short, it is not similar.
    Also, I do not understand why I would remove his books from my house (I do not have any, by the way). If it is not a Torah scroll written by a man, and I keep books by people who did bad things (Aristotle, Plato, Ben-Gurion, and more, by the way), then due to the chance (which is similar to the chance that the world was created by chance) that someone who was hurt by him will come to me, should I throw them away? If he claimed that they were bad books in terms of their content, fine. But if not, it seems exaggerated to me.
    And back to Ram”d–s column, it stems from emotions in my opinion

    1. אולי כשר, אבל טראומטי' - הרהורי דברים לגבי הספרים (לבניה) says:

      In the S”D’ B’Shvat P”B

      Lavania –Shalom Rabbi,

      Fortunately, I am not a rabbi who makes halachic rulings, and I have never had Walder's books at home, nor have I been interested in them. It was after the affair broke that I read one of his books that I came across, and I also read the introduction to another book that I came across in a bookstore.

      The content is excellent, and does not depend on the personality of the author. This is extremely important educational content. He speaks to the child as an adult and guides him in properly dealing with various problems that he encounters in his life. Even regarding protection, I found an excellent chapter in his book (Children Write About Themselves B’, Chapter B. Abbreviations: B”B 🙂 Moreover, every word in his books has been read and reviewed by rabbis and educators, so the content is excellent.

      The problem is the trauma. And the circle of trauma victims includes much more than those who were directly affected. There are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, whose souls are torn and shaken. The kind and wise educator on whose knees they grew up and in whose light they were educated and educated – is seemingly revealed to be a monster, a man who exploited and humiliated the helpless. I suppose that every sight of his books – opens the wounds in those who grew up on him and sprinkles salt on them. And there are many such trauma victims walking around among us, and every sight of the book will reopen their bleeding wound.

      Perhaps it is right to do as in the story about the rabbi who was asked what to do with meat that fell into a cesspool, and replied: ‘It is kosher but stinks’, and here too ‘The book may be kosher but traumatic’. Perhaps it is suggested to treat it as a book that has fallen into a cesspool, that if it is a Torah book, we put it in the Geniza, but if it is a book of beautiful sand, we painfully place it in the Mizor container, from where it will go for purification and rebirth, white and clean.

      And yet, Chaim Walder has merited a white one who continues his path, the gifted scribe R’ Moshe Walder, who will continue to merit the many and even be in the form of a ‘creator from the merits of his father’, will correct and atone.

      With blessings, Othifron Nefshetim HaLevi

      1. On the other hand, there are book lovers for whom the very act of excommunicating books creates trauma. Perhaps it is simpler and easier to put a black ribbon over the author's name, expressing our disgust for his crimes while appreciating his work, and to treat him the way Rabbi Meir treated his Rabbi Elisha ben Aboye, who "ate into it and threw away its peel".

        The man was torn inside between his divine soul, which inspired him to write his wonderful work, and his animal soul, which brought him down to the pit of corruption. In fact, we are all a little torn. One moment we ascend to heaven and the next we descend to dust, "Heint a Malach, Margan a Galach" [= Today an angel, tomorrow a priest], and yet we do not throw ourselves into the trash can, but rather cling to "a little good" so that it may overcome the abysses of evil.

        The wounded book with a black ribbon on its author's name – will be a warning sign for us to know how careful we should be about falling into the abyss. Maybe that's better?

        Best regards, An”

        1. And another question:

          If we take Chaim Walder's books out of the house – would the alternative be better? Instead of reading books that present values and educational content in interesting writing, would it be better for them to spend hours wandering around screens with content of violence and pornography?

          Best regards, An”e

  21. Emotions can be a sign that this is an important issue that deserves careful consideration. It doesn't necessarily mean that the initial position is correct. Like the difference between the overt context and the justification context.

    1. Obviously, arguments should not be dismissed because of emotionality. This is itself emotional behavior.

  22. True and accurate. Only at the end does it seem like you contradicted yourself a bit. Should the elderly, disconnected rabbi make the decision? (Like in the council) or rather the one who is in the field himself (like the community rabbi)

    1. It depends on whether the old man can understand the situation after the explanations he receives. If it is foreign to him, then he should leave the decision to the young man. If he simply lacks information, then he will accept it and decide for himself. In such a situation, detachment is actually an advantage.

  23. Of course, the basic premise of the post is a frozen meta-historical view of Halacha, which I find no justification for.

  24. First – I was wrong, I should have written a-historically and not meta-historically.
    As a matter of fact – forgiveness. But you talk about the halakhah as some kind of defined and frozen system, and what can you do? It is simply not there.
    Perhaps you briefly hinted at this when you wrote in parentheses “and the halakhic world is generally cold and rational (although it is based on basic assumptions that are not always understandable even to those who act in it)”, perhaps not. Either way, you did not really touch on it later.
    It is impossible to deny that our halakhah was created based on a lot of morality. And simply the assumption that ’Okay, from a halakhic point of view it is this way but from a moral point of view it is different’ seems quite wrong to me. At most, one can accept the intra-halakhic division into intellectual and auditory commandments (although one wonders how original it is in Judaism), but in general’ When a rabbi thought, for example, that it didn't make much sense for a father to dedicate his little house, he was scolded for it, and the poskim established it as halakhah (except when it clashed too directly with life for them). When a rabbi thinks that a living Torah scroll is more important than a written Torah scroll, he is quick to define those who disrespect a living Torah scroll as fools, and the poskim also establish this as halakhah. This is not just a coincidence; it is very fundamental to halakhah, the development with logic. And since rape is not exactly the most moral thing in the world, it is simply not legitimate in terms of Talmudic law. Unless you think that the Amoraim thought it wasn't that terrible from a moral perspective, but I think it can be proven from the Gem’ and the first ones that it is not true.

  25. You are right and he is right.
    Your statement that it is ‘complicated’ is of course correct but it is out of place. Not everything that is true, rationally, should be said in every situation, and this is actually Bukobza's claim (in my understanding).
    You can tell your wife that you love her, which is probably true, but you would not say this to the taxi driver you are traveling with, since it is none of his business your love for your wife. Not everything that is true, his statement is out of place.
    I will illustrate this in a slightly more extreme way – If it were depicted that Mr. Bukobza were to approach you and tell you that he was hurt by a certain person, it is also possible that you could stop it, would you tell him that it is ‘complicated’? Although it is true, and his perspective is not necessarily the only one, the person is in distress and needs your help, and it is not appropriate to respond to him in this way.

    Every victim, even after the harm has stopped, needs recognition from society. In fact, the social harm, in the event that there is no recognition, may be even more serious than the sexual harm itself. And to this he cries out – Don't say it's complex. Social recognition is required here.

    Indeed, the situation is complex, and on the pages of your blog you are entitled to analyze and present all sides, but there is meaning to every writing and every statement. The victims encounter them in the public sphere and on the networks, and they may intensify the harm.
    Therefore, your statement, although it is right, I am not sure it is in place.

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