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What Is Modern Orthodoxy: How Does It Differ from Reform? (Column 478)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

In the previous three columns I presented a fairly detailed map of situations and mechanisms of halakhic change and categorized arguments for and against change by type. In the last column I suggested defining features of Modern Orthodoxy and contrasted it mainly with non-modern conservatism. At the end I noted the natural next question: is this in fact a conservative method, or did I merely rephrase the principles of Reform? To address this, I will critically examine several of the arguments of the Reform rabbi Moshe Zemer in his book Sane Halakhah, and try to indicate similarities and differences from the picture I drew in these columns.

Reform and Conservative Halakhic Literature

Already at the start of this series I noted that I deal with typifying kinds of arguments, not with the arguers (sociological groupings). In discussing Zemer’s arguments we will again see how confusing sociology can be (that the arguer defines himself as a Reform rabbi does not necessarily mean his arguments are such). I note that the Conservative halakhic literature (they have quite a few responsa collections)[1] is of course richer and more halakhic, and there one can find not a few arguments of a Modern-Conservative character. In the first column in the series I already stated that, in my view, there is no essential difference between them and Modern Orthodoxy, aside from questions of degree. The tenor of their arguments is generally entirely Modern-Orthodox, and precisely for that reason I will not deal here with their arguments. Such examples were already brought and discussed in previous columns.

I’ll remark that the label “Conservative” is nowadays perceived in the Orthodox world and especially among rabbis as a pejorative—a warning tag for someone outside the legitimate bounds of halakhah. People don’t really distinguish between Reform and Conservative (again, I’m not dealing with people but with outlooks and arguments). In my opinion this is a mistake. The label “Reform” truly denotes arguments outside the bounds of halakhah (that is, of halakhic conservatism in its varieties), but “Conservative” is a tag without real content. If someone decides that I am Conservative (an optimistic assessment compared to a few other characterizations I’ve already received), I have no problem with that. There is indeed something to it, and there’s no need to get excited about labels and tagging. The important question is whether I am right, not what label should be stuck on me. Labeling is the tool of the weak, serving those who lack substantive, relevant arguments. This is especially so with labels that carry nothing negative other than a poor public image. And still, there is value in examining such labels and tags on the substantive plane (and not the sociological one).

I note that Zemer’s book is constructed very similarly to Conservative literature. It opens with a foundational section in which he describes the principles of his halakhic doctrine. The very fact that he bothers to anchor his proposals in interpretations of halakhic sources characterizes Reformers of past generations. It seems that today they hardly do this. Reform no longer truly pays tribute to halakhah—except at a folkloric level—and certainly does not formulate a halakhic stance in light of sources and scholastic discussion. This fact indicates that Zemer is not indifferent to halakhah and that he is committed to it in some sense, despite being Reform. And yet, one can see in several arguments of the book his Reformism, and in some points it is clear that he does not meet the criteria of Modern Orthodoxy (that is, of conservatism) as I outlined them here. I will of course not go through the entire book, but will select a few representative points to illustrate my principled claims.

As an aside I note that when the book first came to my hands many years ago, I had not yet adopted my current “heretical” views, and therefore I read it with great hostility (“some Reform type who understands nothing and can’t learn”). But while reading I decided to try to maintain intellectual honesty, and then suddenly I began to wonder what exactly is wrong with his arguments. In what way are they different from accepted arguments within Orthodox halakhah? My sense was that the difference is at most in degree but not in substance. That somewhat surprised and shook me, and led me to begin examining more systematically the theory of halakhic change and the concepts of conservatism and commitment to tradition. A few decades passed, and in the end this calf was born… (for those who needed evidence of what comes out of reading heretical books and violating “do not stray”).

Halakhah and Morality

As noted, the first section of Zemer’s book surveys the tools that halakhah itself places at our disposal to carry out the necessary changes and adaptations. This is a discussion of halakhic tools; it does not address specific laws and their change in our times. Even so, it seems that already here one can see from time to time that we are not dealing with a conservative approach (including midrashic conservatism) but a Reform one.

The first chapter there is entitled “Halakhah as an Evolving Moral System.” Already the title, and then its content, attest to an approach that, at least in my eyes, is problematic. For Zemer, halakhah is a purely moral system. In his view, halakhah is directed solely to achieving moral goals, for the individual and for society. It is important to note that in this respect he is no different from R. A. I. Kook (and many others) who in several places speaks this way about halakhah. But for Zemer this is a sufficient foundation to demand changing halakhah whenever there is a contradiction between it and morality (or even where the halakhah in question lacks a moral basis, even if it is not anti-moral). If the purpose of halakhah is moral, then it naturally follows that where it does not align with moral values—or even does not realize them (is indifferent to them)—it should be changed.[2]

His Orthodox counterparts, those who also identify halakhah with morality, accept the same (problematic—and in my view actually refuted) premise, but nevertheless refrain from changing halakhah with various pretexts. They explain that we lack authority, or alternatively that at the foundation of halakhah lies a morality deeper than we understand (not eating pork, redeeming a firstborn donkey, or wearing tzitzit, in their opinion, apparently elevate the world to sublime moral heights, and slaying Amalek or not saving a gentile on Shabbat are the ultimate moral mandates), and the meticulous add that contemporary morality is ephemeral fashion, and the like.

All these are, of course, very unconvincing arguments. In that sense, the approach that identifies halakhah as the framework of Jewish morality is indeed inherently Reform, despite Orthodox attempts to evade this conclusion. By contrast, yours truly has written more than once that he adopts an approach that disconnects halakhah from morality and does not recognize a “Jewish morality.” There is one morality for Jew and non-Jew alike; what is moral is moral and what is not is not—regardless of what halakhah says about it and regardless of whether you are a Jew or a non-Jew. Therefore, I also do not see clashes between morality and halakhah as contradictions but at most as situations of conflict. For me, there is no principled theoretical problem with a halakhic directive that is not moral (or a-moral—such laws also contradict the approach that identifies halakhah with morality). But indeed in such cases a practical conflict arises about how to act. I will recall what I have explained more than once: despite the above, where there are two possible paths within halakhah, it is legitimate and desirable to choose the one that accords with moral values (at least as a practical criterion for how to act, even if it is not necessarily the correct halakhic interpretation). Still, in my opinion, there is a disconnect—or at least non-dependence—between these two systems.[3]

It is important to understand that if one conceives the aims of halakhah as purely moral, then there is no principled difference between Jew and non-Jew regarding their tasks in the world. The non-Jew too must be moral, and, as noted, there is no real difference between “Jewish morality” and non-Jewish morality. According to such approaches, it is altogether unclear what the meaning of religion and halakhah is beyond simply being a decent human being. Such a conception empties faith and halakhic commitment of content.[4] I have not even raised the question of efficacy—namely whether halakhic commitment in fact creates more moral people and societies. In my opinion, it does not. What does that say about the justification for adhering to halakhah in such a case?

Zemer argues there that halakhic authorities often tried to align halakhah with morality and even employed creative interpretations to that end, and from this he finds justification for his Reform path. I would say that there is no doubt there is truth in these claims, but in my opinion they do not prove his principled conclusion. Such phenomena do not show that the aims of halakhah are only moral values, but rather that, as far as possible, halakhic authorities try to resolve practical conflicts between halakhah and morality. The implication of the difference between his view and mine is in cases where this cannot be done. In other words: is it justified to bend or nullify halakhah solely because it is immoral (at least by contemporary morality), as Zemer—consistently with his view—proposes? (So too R. Kook and his like ought to have conceded.) Despite my midrashic conservatism, my answer is: absolutely not. Halakhah aims at religious goals and not moral ones (certainly not only moral goals). Therefore, when it conflicts with morality, that alone is not sufficient ground to change it. This point recurs in almost all the arguments in Zemer’s book.

At the beginning of my book Mahalkhim Bein Ha-Omdim (“Walking Among the Standing”) I pointed out that this is certainly true where halakhic principles are written in the Torah itself and the contradiction with morality is inherent (not incidental). A few examples of such situations are killing an Amalekite infant, forcing separation between a priest and his wife if she was raped, or declaring children from prohibited unions mamzerim barred from marriage. My presumption is that the Torah itself, in its command, expresses a decision in favor of halakhah and against morality. In such cases the conflict is resolved by the Torah itself, for it surely took the moral aspect into account and nevertheless gave the halakhic directive (if in such cases morality were to override halakhah, that halakhah would be emptied of content and the biblical command would be inapplicable and unclear). It is therefore implausible to nullify such laws on moral grounds, though they can certainly be limited (“you have only what is novel,” and “do not add upon it”). As we shall see, for Zemer this is sufficient to change or nullify the halakhah (and, as noted, this ought also to be the case for his Orthodox partners in the view on halakhah-morality relations).

Between Motivation and Justification

Later in that section, Zemer brings several tools from the halakhic toolbox—most of which, it seems to me, do not assist his aims. In this section I will sharpen another substantive point that recurs in almost all his examples.

Take as an example the first sugya he treats: derishat lashon hedyot (Bava Metzia 104a and elsewhere). The Gemara reports that Hillel wished to permit mamzerim, and therefore expounded the contract language used in ketubot in Alexandria: “When you enter the bridal canopy, be my wife,” meaning that the betrothal takes effect only when she enters the huppah.[5] Hillel the Elder thus voided the kiddushin of women who married others before entering the huppah with the first man. But this sugya does not actually prove what Zemer wants from it. Hillel interpreted the text of the ketubah and took it seriously, thereby voiding kiddushin. But the ketubah is truly a contractual commitment between the parties, and halakhah sees it that way. Therefore, if it contains a condition that cancels the kiddushin, there is room to void them if the condition was not fulfilled. The fact that Hillel’s motivation was to purify mamzerim is unrelated to the justification for voiding the kiddushin.

The conflation of motivation with the halakhic tools for implementing it is a common error in discussions like this. Even if a decisor has moral and value-based motivations to change halakhah, if he is conservative rather than Reform he is supposed to use tools that hold water to do so—and not play games and knead the halakhah as he pleases without real halakhic justification. The value motivation by itself is not sufficient justification on the halakhic plane. This is one of the salient differences between a Reform approach and midrashic conservatism. We may pose it thus: would Hillel have voided kiddushin in order to abolish mamzerut altogether from Israel? If the ketubah had not been worded in a way that could be expounded thus, I am convinced Hillel would not have done so—despite the motivation, which would of course have existed then as well. The Gemara there implies this clearly. The Reform proponent hangs his case on motivation; for him it suffices to justify halakhic change. He does not seek a conservative midrash that would justify it with halakhic tools.

Apropos this sugya, Zemer often leans on Prof. Yitzhak Gilat’s book Perakim Be-Hishtalshelut Ha-Halakhah (“Studies in the Development of Halakhah”), both on the matter of derishat lashon hedyot and throughout the book. When Gilat’s book was published it made a great splash (or, as R. Nahman would put it: “a great noise in Heaven”), for he—a Hebron Yeshiva alumnus in his “criminal” past—put squarely on the table the claim that halakhah develops and changes across the generations, and he demonstrated this from the halakhic sources themselves through scholarly (academic) analysis. I recall the reviews and commotion that the book aroused across the rabbinic world, which of course immediately prompted me to go and buy it (and this was before I became a certified and licensed heretic). When I read the book—something most reviewers obviously did not do—I discovered a nuance that the critics usually missed. As far as I saw, Gilat throughout his book does not argue that moral motivation was the basis for halakhic change. He is careful, more than once, to say that such motivation was what spurred the Sages to seek halakhic mechanisms (a conservative midrash, in my parlance) to effect the change.

For example (also discussed by Zemer), Gilat treats the rule “the Sabbatical year in our time is rabbinic,” and shows that this conception crystallized only in later sugyot—those formed after the destruction. He thus hypothesizes that the motivation was various hardships of farmers and the public after the destruction. But I saw that he indeed writes that this determination came to resolve economic and social distress, yet he carefully avoids writing that the distress was its justification. It was the trigger to seek and interpret the Torah and to reach the conclusion that the Sabbatical year today is rabbinic and thus there is room to be lenient. Were it not for the distress, the Sages would not have sat over the matter and would not have discovered that the Sabbatical year today is rabbinic; but the distress by itself is not sufficient ground for that determination.

This fundamental distinction between motivation and the halakhic tool on which the change is based escaped most of Gilat’s reviewers, and it is also what lies at the root of my dispute with Zemer and Reform generally. Zemer interpreted Gilat exactly like his Orthodox critics did—as though motivation were the basis for the change. Only the critics concluded that this makes Gilat Reform and thus heretical and untouchable, while Zemer concluded that he is Reform and thus one may rely on him. Note that—as in many other cases—both sides err, even in the same error. Gilat was not Reform (whether one likes Reform or not), because for him change requires a halakhic tool that holds water (a conservative midrash), and without it one cannot implement it. Distress may at most be a motivation to search for and deploy such tools.

This is precisely the watershed between Reform and midrashic conservatism, and it threads through all the critiques of Gilat’s book as well as all the arguments in Zemer’s. Arguments for change in halakhah without a conservative midrash are Reform. Arguments grounded in a conservative midrash are conservative. Of course one may debate the legitimacy of conservative midrash as such, or the validity of a specific conservative midrash, but that is not my concern here. My discussion is whether it is legitimate (conservative), not whether it is correct and should be accepted.

This important distinction resembles the distinction between the context of discovery and the context of justification in philosophy of science. There is a big difference between the motivation to search for a theory, or even to believe in it, and the empirical-scientific justification for it. I may believe a theory for various reasons, and perhaps it is convenient for me to believe it, but as long as it lacks justification in scientific-empirical terms, it cannot be accepted at the scientific level. No one will accept a justification for a scientific theory X on the basis that so-and-so’s intuition says it is true, or because it benefits us in some way—even if that benefit is value-laden and worthy.

Rabbinic Enactments (Takkanot Ḥakhamim)

His next example is the “penitents’ enactments.” As is known, the Sages enacted several measures to ease the path of those returning a stolen item and doing repentance. One is the “beam” enactment (Gittin 55a), which concerns a person who stole a beam and built a house and integrated it into the structure. If we require him to return the very beam as halakhah demands (as Bet Shammai rule), that will deter him from repenting. Therefore, the Sages (Bet Hillel) enacted that the beam remains his and he may compensate the victim monetarily. Zemer uses such enactments as a basis to say that one may change laws for moral, value, and social reasons.

Here the problem differs from that of the previous section. Indeed, the Sages can enact takkanot for reasons that seem correct to them, and for this they do not even need to perform a conservative midrash. A conservative midrash is intended to justify changing a biblical law (or a different application in new circumstances). A rabbinic decree or enactment operates via a different mechanism. The Sages are not changing biblical law but adding a rabbinic layer and displacing the biblical law (by instructing passivity, and sometimes even actively). This is an authority granted to them by the Torah, and it does not require a conservative midrash. It suffices that the Sages have a motivation (such as easing repentance, preventing prohibitions, or some value consideration). There are several sources for the authority given to the Sages to enact takkanot (based solely on motivation), such as “make a fence for My fence,” or “you shall not turn aside,” and the like. Moreover, the Rambam at the start of Hilkhot Mamrim also explains that the Sages must state that this is a rabbinic addition and not a biblical law, so that we not be confused.

Why is this important? Because although the Sages indeed have such authority, and takkanot do not require conservative midrash but only motivation (like a value justification), that authority is vested only in the forum or institution to which “you shall not turn aside” applies—namely, the Great Court (Sanhedrin). Note that what Zemer proposes is not the addition of takkanot but the change of biblical laws without backing of a conservative midrash. He explains that such-and-such a law is not relevant today and therefore is null—and he is not proposing an enactment that circumscribes it. This touches on our basic commitment to halakhah itself, not to time-bound additions. Therefore, rabbinic enactments cannot support his practical proposals. One may ask, of course, what I would say if Zemer were proposing this as takkanot and not as halakhic change. In that hypothetical case, indeed, motivation would suffice and no conservative midrash would be needed—but then the crux would be questions of authority, not substance: whether today one may dispute the Talmud or add takkanot without a Great Court and without broad public consensus (like that which created commitment to the Talmud’s authority). In any case, this does not seem to be Zemer’s claim, since he speaks about the original halakhah, not about adding later enactments and decrees.

This is another point distinguishing Reformism from midrashic conservatism. For the midrashic conservative, to implement change requires a conservative midrash (for biblical laws) or a duly authorized institution that can enact takkanot (for rabbinic laws, where one does not need a conservative midrash but only motivation). For the Reform approach, our own consideration suffices (as we saw in the previous section, motivation replaces halakhic justification). From a conservative perspective, precedents based on takkanot and decrees of the Sages are irrelevant for changing biblical laws at all, and for enacting new rabbinic measures in our day. And these are, after all, the matters at issue in the debate with Reform.

“It Is a Time to Act for the Lord”

His next discussion is the rule of “It is a time to act for the Lord” (Berakhot 63a and elsewhere), by virtue of which Rabbi [Judah the Prince] permitted writing down the Oral Torah (for fear it would be forgotten).

Rashi (Yoma 69a) explains it thus:

When the time comes to do something for the sake of the Holy One, blessed be He, it is permitted to override the Torah.

This is already seemingly closer to our topic. True, here too it concerns a Sanhedrin enactment (Rabbi), and in that sense this path is not open to us, for the reasons explained in the previous section. But if it were a simple enactment, there would be no need to invoke this verse and fashion from it a special rule. Every rabbinic decree and enactment is, in this sense, a “time to act for the Lord” (departing from the law for God’s sake). It appears this is not a rule that grounds enactments but a directive open to sages in every generation, even where there is no authorized institution and no ordained sages. Perhaps it concerns a kind of “transgression for the sake of heaven,” or freezing laws temporarily (which can, of course, be prolonged—indeed in my book Mahalkhim Bein Ha-Omdim I proved that this possibility is not conditioned on ordination and a Sanhedrin[6]), and perhaps even past nicht (procedural inappropriateness) considerations. Such a mechanism indeed exists within the midrashic-conservative framework I described here, but its application is limited to heavy, clear moral problems and to significant consensus among the sages of the generation. Uprooting wide swaths of halakhah by this mechanism seems highly problematic—though this is indeed a question of degree, not essence.

To this family of principles one may also attach the rules “Better that Israel eat meat of animals that died [but were] ritually slaughtered, than that they eat meat of animals that died as carrion” (Kiddushin 21b–22a)—that is, better to minimize transgression. This is a problematic rule and I shall not enter it here. It is unclear whether it is a halakhic rule or an extra-halakhic directive for the decisor (see on this in my essay for Parashat Ḥayyei Sarah, Midah Tovah, 5767). On the face of it, it seems to be guidance for deciding in a conflict between halakhah and morality or between halakhah and extra-halakhic considerations; accordingly, it does not change halakhah itself but instructs practical behavior in a specific situation. In any case, it is capitulation to weakness, not changing halakhah for extra-halakhic value principles.

So too the dispensations for exigent circumstances that he cites belong to a similar category. Halakhah is full of leniencies in cases of duress, but this is not a directive to change the law; it is a dispensation born of capitulation to hardship. The same applies to the dignity of creatures, to leniencies “on account of suffering,” “on account of enmity,” and the like. None of these is a rule for changing halakhah, but for specific applications in times of hardship. Moreover, these rules too have halakhic definitions (albeit not unequivocal) of when they apply and when not; thus, it is hard to see in them a basis for sweeping Reform change.

This sort of rule is, of course, legitimate also within the midrashic-conservative picture—but with different degrees and scopes. Therefore, here there is indeed no substantive logical difference between Reform and midrashic conservatism. According to both approaches, such arguments can be accepted, though there will likely be differences in degree and extent.

The Examples in the Body of the Book

The principles discussed in his opening section form the basis of the book’s claims, and having dealt with them I am exempt from discussing the specific proposals. Still, I will bring a few examples to illustrate the points.

Chapter 3 deals with yibbum and ḥalitzah. He opens with a heart-rending depiction of the woman’s status and morally and ethically troubling situations that these principles create (agunah, extortion by the ḥalitzah-performers, and more). After that he gives a general introduction to the topic, and then leaps to the sweeping claim that was adopted as a resolution of the Reform rabbis’ conference in Augsburg (1871):

The commandment of ḥalitzah has lost its importance, since the circumstances that obligate yibbum and ḥalitzah no longer exist. The idea underlying this law is foreign to our religious and social outlook. Not performing ḥalitzah is no obstacle to the widow’s remarriage.

He brings this without really explaining what that underlying idea is and why today it is not relevant to their religious and social outlook (and whence that outlook derives). The feeling is that for them it suffices to say “this does not speak to us” or “it seems foreign,” in order to nullify severe laws of matters of marital relations. You will not find there a conservative midrash—not even a modern one (that builds on changed values). A sense of rejection and alienation suffices as a substitute for conservative midrash. The law is void because it doesn’t sit well with them, period.

Finally, he brings a few highly questionable attempts at explanation—but they at least purport to present a conservative midrash. For example, that the laws of ḥalitzah and yibbum presume that the woman is her husband’s property (his chattel), which is not relevant today. Where is this seen? I did not grasp (and I do not agree in any case). It is evident that the “conservative midrash” need not be particularly cogent in order to cancel a law. And it is no wonder that, beyond several Reform rabbis he cites there, most do not resort to rationales and conservative midrash at all, for even those who bring them do so as a façade. There is an apparent similarity to midrashic conservatism, but the poor quality and thin grounding of the “midrash” indicates an essential difference (a tactical use of what appears to be a conservative midrash).

In the following chapter he turns to the prohibition on a priest marrying a divorcée. Here the situation is different, for there is a fairly reasonable conservative midrash according to which this prohibition is connected to Temple service, which does not exist in our time; and the status of the divorcée today is not what it was in the biblical and Talmudic eras. Beyond this he raises the question of priestly lineage today, which also casts doubt on these prohibitions. In principle this is a legitimate and even fairly plausible conservative midrash, and thus it deserves serious discussion. I will not do so here, since my aim is only to show that even if proposals are raised by a Reform rabbi, that does not necessarily mean the proposals are Reform.[7] This is the distinction between substance and sociology that has accompanied us in these columns. Clearly for Zemer this does not take him out of the Reform camp, for in his view one can change laws even where there is no reasonable conservative midrash (merely because they are immoral, for example). But the argument itself is certainly worth discussion.

The last example I’ll bring here is the question of mamzerut (Chapter 5). Here too he opens with heart-rending descriptions of difficult situations caused by the laws of mamzerut. After an introduction to those laws, he turns to discussing changing them. In the bottom line he proposes change solely on the basis of the moral difficulty (children suffering a very severe penalty for their parents’ sin). The precedents he cites permitted cases of mamzerut by halakhic arguments that held water (even if disputed and debatable). But he proposes to abolish mamzerut entirely. Again we see that moral motivation suffices, in his view, to change halakhah with no need for a conservative midrash. For if we seek to build a suitable conservative midrash, we would have to explain why in the time of the Torah and the Sages marriage restrictions on mamzerim were imposed, and what has changed today that makes the prohibition irrelevant. But you will not find this in his words. At most he points to greater need (for example, his claim that in the USSR there was no way to separate in accordance with “Moses and Israel,” which created a widespread problem of mamzerut). All these are considerations of need—that is, pointing to motivations to seek a heter. But conservatism demands justification by halakhic tools. Motivations, however worthy, are not conservative midrashim.

I note that if one conceives the goal of halakhah as the realization of moral values, then one can understand why such a profoundly immoral outcome is unacceptable. But that proves the point: that was the case in the past as well, and yet the Torah and the Sages prohibited mamzerim from entering the assembly. The upshot is that halakhah likely has aims beyond morality; therefore, pointing to a moral problem does not suffice to ground halakhic change. Beyond that—or perhaps as a result—the moral motivation, understandable and legitimate though it is, cannot be the tool on which to base the proposed change. This is a quintessentially Reform argument, and it differs sharply and clearly from midrashic conservatism.

Conclusion

I will not continue, like a peddler, to deal with all of Zemer’s examples, for the ones discussed suffice to clarify the principle. His motivations are desirable and, in most cases, acceptable to me as well. But for me, motivations are not enough, and one who is committed to halakhah cannot suffice with them as the sole basis for change. Implementing changes in this way means there is no commitment to halakhah: you do what seems morally right to you and then call it “halakhah.” Commitment entails dilemmas and paying prices. In the end, the feeling is that a Reform rabbi is never truly in a dilemma or conflict. If the halakhah is not moral, then in his view it simply does not exist. In this he differs essentially from all the rabbinic precedents on which he himself relies, for they all acted within a framework of conflict—that is, out of distress and tension between halakhah and morality and social reality—and they sought ways to address that tension. I have written more than once that a conflict between halakhah and morality can exist only for one who is independently committed to both components, halakhah and morality. One who is not committed to one of them will not experience conflict, even if he for some reason chooses to present it that way. The Reform framework does not include commitment to halakhah—that is, conservatism—of any kind. Halakhah is a kind of discourse, folklore, but not truly binding. This differs from the Conservatives, as I have noted more than once in these columns.

I will conclude by stressing that it is very important to me that the motivations of Zemer and his colleagues be important also to halakhically conservative (Orthodox) figures. Even where there is no solution, it remains important that we possess moral and value sensitivity. And at times when there is such awareness and sensitivity—that is, when there is motivation—we succeed more in finding halakhic tools that justify and enable change. Of course, unlike the Reformers, this will not always be the case. Within a conservative framework (that is, one committed to halakhah), there will be situations in which the motivation indeed exists, but we will not find tools that allow us to implement a change in practice.

And to the listener, may it be pleasing…

[1] My impression is that very few of them truly know how to learn (and those who do are usually alumni of Orthodox yeshiva education). In the responsa I have read, for some reason they all end by thanking Prof. David Golinkin, and to my impression he is the one who anchored all those responsa in halakhic sources. In short, it seemed to me he was the only one there who knows how to learn.

[2] Here a conservative midrash is called for as a result of a change in values.

[3] There can be a practical difference between the two conceptions. If I see morality as an interpretation of the intention of halakhah itself, then when the moral interpretation is less plausible in terms of the halakhic source, there is no justification to choose it. But if morality is a way to decide practical action between two interpretations (and not a decision as to which is halakhically correct), then there is room to choose it even if that interpretation is inferior to its competitor. To take a non-moral step requires high certainty that this is indeed the halakhic directive. This of course requires further elaboration.

[4] To complete the picture, I note that in my book Ha-Matzui Ha-Rishon (“The First Existent”) I argued that it is implausible that morality is the goal of creation and Torah, for morality is an instrument for creating a functioning society and refined persons; were that the goal, God could simply not have created humankind and there would be no need to refine them. I therefore concluded there must be values outside creation that are its goal, and morality is a means to a functioning society capable of acting for those values. I called them there “religious values,” and argued that halakhah directs us toward them (and not toward morality).

[5] Incidentally, this is a wonderful precedent for voiding kiddushin by means of a condition—something that today is rejected by all decisors, even when one makes an explicit condition and not merely expounds “layman’s wording.” One should connect this to Zemer’s discussions at the end of the chapter on hafqa‘at kiddushin (annulment) and conditions in kiddushin, which likewise cannot ground his proposals for the reasons I explain above.

[6] See also here, here, and here; a reminder in column 275, and more.

[7] For a similar proposal of mine, see my article on the status of a convert regarding marriage and public office. There I argued that the foundation of the prohibition lies in the convert’s low social standing—that is, a concession to an unworthy state. Accordingly, when the situation returns to being worthy, there is room to change those laws (including biblical ones). I even brought proofs from the sources.


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37 תגובות

  1. Thanks for the column.
    The question is a bit off topic, but in the meantime
    How do you distinguish, if at all, between the Reform view and the Jewish-secular one prevalent in Israel?
    As mentioned, I am not asking a sociological question, but rather a purely ideological and ethical one.

    1. The secularist does not deal with Halacha and is not interested in it. The Reformer supposedly speaks in Halachaic language and is committed to Halacha to one degree or another, but in a flexible and not absolute way. In the first column (in the section “Between a Midrashic Conservative and a Kupfer”); I mentioned that in the articles cited there I explained the difference between a Reformer and a Kupfer, through the paradox of the stack.

  2. Both convincing and beautiful.
    But one must question whether a quality conservative midrash is needed. This is a topic that has come up in the past and in responses to previous columns, and I return to it because it was not explained there why. If I conclude statistically (let's say for now) that the Sages found themselves in very few conflicts with the law, and I also assume (apparently as you assume in the columns) that God in His Torah does not often engage in anti-value laws, then the conclusion is that there is some interpretive path so that there are almost no conflicts. So why is it necessary to find such an explicit one. C’ Questions. A’ Are such statistics reasonable or should we not compare different value worlds. B’ If the statistics are reasonable, then is it enough to speculate on what the truth is even without knowing how it is arrived at (a non-constructive hypothesis of existence) or is it mandatory to hold to a valid conclusion (otherwise it is absurd). G’ Minyan is the one who carves out answers to such meta questions.
    In response to a comment in a previous column, you answered that it is mandatory to present a valid midrash. And in the previous answer, I understood that you did not rule out the possibility that future Sanhedrins would cancel the products of a sermon without knowing the rules of the sermons, thinking that if they knew the rules, they would have already made a different sermon. Can you clarify your opinion on the subject and why?
    The above doubter essentially claims that motivation and the need to present a conservative midrash are enough, because if there is motivation, then most likely the midrash exists somewhere.

    1. Even if Chazal had few conflicts, we have more. The question is fundamental, and therefore a few conflicts are enough to prove a disconnect between the categories (halakhah and morality). In particular, there are many more immoral (and not anti-moral) laws. I do not think that it is possible to assume that there is an interpretive path without pointing to it, especially for immoral laws, which are numerous.

      I do not remember the discussion there about invalidating the product of a sermon without knowing the methods of the sermon. I can only say that in every sermon there is also an explanation, and therefore if the explanation has changed, the existing midrashic product can be canceled. But in order to create a new midrashic product, motivation is not enough without an explicit midrash.

      1. A. That is, the importance of pointing to the interpretive path is only so that we know that it exists and is reasonable, and not because there is some special principle in halakhah that one must know the reason. [Perhaps evidence for this is that the Gemara employs techniques of why your soul is obligated or permitted to do so and so. We do not know exactly what the halakhic reason is, but we do know the conclusion]. I thought that by virtue of your method of autonomy against the bet you would say that this is not a valid halakhic approach.

        B. This is swallowed up in long, sloppy matters called Tractate Hagiga (https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%9B%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%92%D7%99%D7%92%D7%94). I will quote the languages for the benefit of the matter:

        * Rabbi Mikhi: It is not reasonable to disagree with someone without being able to understand him. Although I can imagine a situation where a future Sanhedrin reaches a point where it has no understanding of the sermons, but it seems to it that there are many obligatory changes in the halakha. It could perhaps decide to carry them out without understanding the methods of the sermon for the time being. Perhaps only temporarily.
        * Question: Perhaps it is possible to disagree. Because, for example, it is possible to diagnose a statistical claim that the sermons of the Sages tend to be very consistent with their moral/conceptual opinion in general. Then if it claims that it disagrees with them on a moral/conceptual level, it can assume that if it knew the methods of the sermons, it would demand a different sermon since it is quite consistent with its moral/conceptual opinion. This is an argument that seems completely reasonable to me. Is it enough to change? Or is it more “agnostic” than relying on what has already emerged from the secret mechanism of the Sages?
        * Rabbi Michi: Possible

        1. A. Absolutely.
          B. In my first answer, I assume that there is no way to change the way I know the midrash, except perhaps as a regulation that uproots Torah law. This is of course possible, since every regulation or decree uproots Torah law in a certain sense, and as I wrote here, an interpretive midrash is not needed for rabbinic law.
          Regarding what you suggested, I think it is perhaps possible in principle, but we need to look at a concrete case. In general, such an approach does not seem reasonable to me. In any case, such a consideration can be characterized as conservative, since it assumes the existence of a midrash even if it does not explicitly point to it.

  3. There is also (Rabbi?) David Al-Hilbani and Shamai Friedman, and I read about Golinkin in the book of the rabbi's friend
    Rabbi David Sperber, who brings answers in his name, and about David, see Wikipedia about David, whom Rabbi Sperber also praised.

      1. Note on

        [1] Although I have the impression that very few of them really know how to study (and they are usually graduates of Orthodox yeshiva education). In the answers I read, for some reason everyone at the end credits Prof. David Golinkin, and it seems to me that he is the one who anchored all the answers there in the sources of halakhic law. In short, it seemed to me that he was the only one there who knew how to study.

        1. On [1] – They can't learn to study. Many of them are graduates of Solomon Schechter or Public Schools high schools, and ’Ordination to the Rabbinate’ They eventually receive an academic degree in ’Rabbinical Studies’ which they do after college’.

          1. In the reign of King David in 1982, some of the students of the Conservative seminary come from a yeshiva background, and even those who do not study the literature of the rabbis and halakha for an academic degree. Even research studies require a great deal of knowledge of the material. The difference is in the approach. If the Talmud or the commentators resolve the difficulties through subtle and profound distinctions, then the researchers would prefer to assume that the rabbis or the poskim changed the ancient halakha to adapt them to changing needs or renewed values, which they define as "positive historical Judaism," which constantly updates itself to the spirit of the times.

            With best wishes, Elisaf Gershoni Bar-Zuk

            1. Many of them arrive at the rabbinical course with zero ability to read a paragraph in the Gemara and with the halachic knowledge of at most a ninth-grade Ulpana student, and go on to become community rabbis who function like the synagogue's cultural and social coordinator. The essence is crumbling because of this too. I wonder how long it will survive.
              However, we can show them a favor for still holding a slice of American Jewry somehow connected to Judaism, and collecting remote and lost things for their communities. Perhaps they have a specific historical role in this.

  4. 5/31/22

    The view proposed here that the rabbi has no authority in the moral realm, and does not accept the 13 Articles of Faith, is not “Orthodoxy,” and it tries to mislead the public by calling itself “Modern Orthodoxy,” a nickname reserved for the disciples of Gerd Soloveitchik.

    Within the non-Orthodox sects, the Reformers who sincerely practice “calling the child by his name” have a great advantage. They openly say that the “principle of equality” is above all else, and therefore the prohibition of marriage with people of other nations should be seen as immoral.

    The ‘conservative Midrash’ also supports this approach. In the beginning, the Gentiles were idolaters and there was a fear that they would ’remove our descendants’. Today, there is no real enthusiasm for ‘idolatry’ and there is no fear that the Gentile spouse will ‘remove’ his/her children from seeing Judaism as a source of inspiration; on the contrary, the combination of the Christian and Jewish roots of the descendants – creates original and fruitful combinations.

    Within the blessed ’multiculturalism’, there is also a place for an ‘Orthodox-Orthodox’couple, combining together characteristics of Greek Orthodoxy with Jewish Orthodoxy. For example, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox-Orthodox community may grow a beard and a ponytail, as is the Greek Orthodox custom, but wear a Hamburg coat (or a knitted kippah), as is the Jewish Orthodox custom.

    With greetings, Shimsarion Levingopoulos, Matriarchal Patriarch, Orthodox-Orthodox Community, in Antioch, Greece

    1. And speaking of the true ’modern Orthodoxy’ of the rabbis of the United States– the rabbi whose innovative rulings paved the way for observant Jews in the United States to integrate into modern activities, was actually an avowed ‘Haredi’ and a member of the ’Council of Torah Scholars’ of the &#8216Agudat Israel’, namely, the late ’Germâm Feinstein.

      Even religious Zionists, who needed halachic guidance in their integration into all areas of activity, agriculture and industry, technology and medicine, education and security – They have addressed and continue to address their questions to renowned halachic arbiters of the generation, and in finding halachic solutions to life's problems, there is no significant difference between the "Zionists" and the "Haredim". The Ha-Rabbi Yosef and the Ha-Rabbi Eliyahu, the Haredim Auerbach and the "Tzitz Eliezer" and the Haredim Frank have addressed and found innovative solutions to halachic problems, no less than the declared "Zionist" rabbis.

      At the end of the day, it is precisely a ruling that is well-rooted in the tradition of the rulings of the Sages and the Rishonim and Aharonim that is likely to be accepted by a wide public and have an impact. My ‘high-level’ talk about ‘adapting frozen halakhah’ to our modern values – sometimes achieves the opposite by arousing suspicion. The more the posk focuses on in-depth study of halakhic literature without ideological biases – the greater his chances of finding well-founded innovations.

      With best wishes, Elazar Achikar Elbadar”Shai

      1. In short:
        “True Orthodoxy”, in the precise sense of “right faith”, whose foundations of faith and values are well anchored in the written and handed down Torah, accompanied by true “conservatism”, strict adherence to the ways of ruling taught by the sages and the sages of the generations.

        They enable “re-formation”, in the true sense of “new form”, in the cultivation of more comfortable, pleasant and sophisticated forms of life, which stand firmly on solid and stable foundations of faith and values. In this way, we will build our lives on the Torah of Israel and not on “Palestinian Torah”. 🙂

        Regards, brother

        1. להוריד את המקף בין 'מודרן' ל'אורתודוקס' says:

          The success of true modern Orthodoxy, of the United States, comes from its ability to distinguish between the ‘sacred’ and the ’mundane’. The contribution of modernity is in perfecting practical life to be more pleasant, comfortable and safe. The ’modern tool’ is more comfortable and more efficient,

          But the faith and value content – the ’light’ for which the ’modern tool’is a receptacle is the Torah, the old wine of the sages of the ages, the sages and our first and last rabbis, the sages of the Talmud and Halacha and the thinkers of morality, Kabbalah and Hasidism, which the expansion of the horizons of modern science and thought – Helps to understand and explain it, but does not pretend to be arrogant about the beliefs and values of the ancients.

          Chazal and the first and last are our sages, they are our moral and halakhic faith compass. In light of their thought and legacy, we know how to navigate our way without being idle towards the modern world and its sparkling refinements. ‘Flowers’ We will take from ’Greek wisdom’, but with them we will adorn and glorify the eternal values of our Torah.

          With greetings, A”A

  5. Mikhi. I will comment that in my opinion when the Rabbi and his son the Rabbi, or others of the same approach, write that the purpose of the law is moral, they do not mean it in a simplistic way - that the law must conform to the basic moral principles that we have in mind. But since the halakhic law is from God, from a divine command or at least inspired by a divine command - and God is all good - it is first understood. That in the end, in hidden depths and even if we do not know why, it is necessarily for the benefit of all creation. And when the Redeemer comes, we will know to see or he will explain to us exactly why the sacrifice of Amalek, the wearing of tefillin, and the not eating of pork are moral, just like not killing or performing acts of kindness. And some of his students, and he himself, also claim that such reasons can already be found for some of the prohibitions and commandments (Rabbi Shreki, for example, loves to quote sayings Chazal then brings a quote from some philosopher and says something like: "Basic human intuition shows that this is how it should be, as our sages said." And sometimes he also likes to bring two sages' statements and link them to ancient philosophical disputes. Sometimes, and this is done a lot by, say, Rabbi Aviner and Rabbi Eliyahu Zeini. Also, he claims that in many cases the Torah is more moral than philosophy itself. Levinas also really liked to talk about Jewish morality. About the "absolute other."
    Apology or excuses? Maybe. I myself often wonder how solid a basis there is for this genre. But I think it should be emphasized that they do not mean that the sequel necessarily corresponds to morality from our perspective. Or that its entire purpose is to refine and correct the person who was a better husband or loved a person more. But since these are divine commandments and, as emphasized in their teaching, the purpose of the Torah is to correct the entire world - there must be a sublime morality there. Sometimes hidden

      1. Look. I think that by and large it's a lot of semantics.
        In general, the claim that God is merciful to the world. That he wants all of humanity and creation to be corrected. And that all wickedness, like a cloud, will disappear. It's not unreasonable at all to assume. That the world "works". In such a way that the more mitzvot correct the souls/bring redemption closer even if we don't know how and why.
        The genre of trying to show how every mitzvot and every midrash and midrash correspond to human morality. Elevate it. Or ultimately bypass and defeat it - this is more of a sermon that is probably also apologetics. Sometimes there is a substantive connection between the things. Sometimes not. But overall I think that even these are aware that their words are a sermon.

    1. המוסר של התורה דורש יותר (לרצה"י) (לרצה"י) says:

      In the Bible, the Torah has a basic universal morality embodied in the Seven Commandments of Noah, which leads man to be "in order," not to steal, murder, or commit adultery. The Ten Commandments also include "You shall not covet," which is a unique requirement of the Israelites.

      Western morality also goes in this direction of "live and let live." But it removed the prohibition on adultery and incest, and thereby eased the prohibition on murder, permitted abortions so as not to restrict sexual freedom, and permitted child trafficking (under the dirty name of "surrogacy" for the sake of homosexuals. The Western world did not hear about honoring parents and teachers, and the prohibitions on gossip, slander, and publicly defaming one's fellow man, and the West replaced "You shall not covet" with a public abhorrence known as "pride."

      But the moral demand of the Torah is much more. It is a morality of love and brotherhood, of "the timid, the merciful, and the reciprocators of kindness," and as the prophet said: "Do justice, love kindness, and be modest in walking with the people." Elohim, it is enough to read the high moral demands in Parashat Kedoshim. The morals of the Torah come from a perspective of constantly standing before the Creator, love of the Creator leads to love of people, and fear of Him leads a person to noble, restrained and honorable behavior.

      Long live the abysmal difference between egocentric morality in which a person puts himself at the center and the morality of a person who is subordinate to the Creator of the world and strives to be His faithful emissary.

      With blessings, Amioz Yaron Schnitzel

      1. יש גם צדדים טובים באגוצנטריות במערבית המערבית says:

        Western egocentrism also has its beneficial aspects. When looking for a life of luxury and comfort - there is much less motivation to go to war. There is a good side to this that people do not kill each other for all sorts of dubious ideals, and on the other hand, even when there is a fight for positive values - Western people will prefer calm to the struggle for values. Thus the English were ready to hand over Europe to the Nazis until they themselves were attacked, and thus the Americans did not care about the Nazi rampage until they attacked them.

        Western people's aspiration for a life of comfort and well-being that also includes freedom and "self-realization" leads to the development of technology and medicine and an increase in the standard of living. The aspiration of the Western person that society will not ‘get into his veins’, may also make it easier for those who observe the Torah and the mitzvot to maintain their faith and lifestyles even as a minority in a secular society, but there is a tendency for Western society to ‘put aside’ the values of freedom and multiculturalism when it comes to those who observe the Torah and to exercise ‘liberal coercion’ against them 🙂

        In short: we should take ‘with limited guarantee’ the ‘enlightened morality’ that Western culture claims to offer, which often turns into ‘ambush culture’, in which it is permissible to hurt, humiliate, and despise others, and to transform physical violence into emotional and verbal violence. May God have a strong moral compass, the words of our Torah and its sages, which clarify for us the right path in the eyes of God and man.

        With blessings, Hanoch Hanach Feinschmecker-Palti

  6. And this is in contrast to the Reformers who claim that the purpose of Halacha is to correct man. And to correct man precisely according to contemporary moral standards. And that the commandments are only a tool for this. And they have no religious value in themselves. Apparently, Halacha needs to be corrected to Halacha that is true. Apparently, the Reformers also do not see the Torah as eternal and unchanging, nor as a source of authority.

  7. I offer you a definition of conservatism in light of the following columns:
    Reformers - Halacha is the folklore of morals that determines
    Conservatives - Morals have authority above Halacha, but Halacha has secondary authority (that there is no conflict)
    Modern - Equal authority
    Orthodoxy - Morals have secondary authority to Halacha (will try to avoid conflict, but Halacha takes precedence)
    Ultra-Orthodoxy - There is no external morality that has authority outside Halacha

    1. Too simplistic and inaccurate. There are changes that are not related to morality. Current values or the current situation. Beyond that, the attitude towards morality is not dichotomous as you described. The halakhic core also responds to morality (the fifth question, a transgression per se) and more. But of course you can offer your own classification. It is certainly relevant.

  8. I am not a Conservative. To the best of my knowledge, the Rabbi is not a Conservative (at all), so the discussion here is not clear to me. I understand that the division between the two types of Conservatives is nice, but it is for methods that are important to them. What is important to me is the truth. If I believe in God and His commandments, I need to keep them. The Talmud, as the Rabbi Birar explained, has formal authority and it is important to clarify different methods so that your learned intuition comes as close as possible to the truth.

    The whole discussion about values is also not clear to me. Values, for me, are a code name for cultural relativism. I do not believe in relativism, but in truth. As far as I am concerned, a Poske should rule according to his truth, and as far as I am concerned, a Poske can also uproot the Gemara from the place of his truth. If the Rabbi ruled that, for him, women complete the Minyan, then women complete the Minyan. Would you say that the Gemara says that only men complete the Minyan? Then the gates of excuses have not been closed. I have no need to start arguing with the Gemara and adopt the relativistic discourse of values. If the rabbi abrogated an explicit commandment from the Torah of writing a Torah scroll and applied it to the treasury of wisdom and the shul project as the Haredi in his world cites in his examples because this is his Torah intuition, then we have not been deprived. And if the rabbi, in terms of his Torah intuition, believes that the Gemara's law is that women cannot testify, then let him not lie to himself and say, "These are the values of the Gemara, but I have other values." This is actually Reformism and also Conservativeism, as was revealed in the matter of driving a car on Shabbat. And when the Torah is false and succumbs to every current moral fashion, it is also unconvincing and people abandon it (just as people abandon Reformism and Conservativeism). The power of the Torah comes from its truth, which comes from the intuition of the posek or the lamadan, whose devotion to the Torah makes them the most righteous, and therefore reveals that their intuition is true. The discourse of values is false and makes everything in front of it worthless. If I believe in a value called “equality” then I have to subordinate everything to it, including the Torah and reason and health and security and countless other examples. This is imperialism, not a pursuit of truth. But equality, for me, is not a value but a truth, and as a truth it lives with other truths, such as that women are not the same as men, that the physical interests of women are not the same as the physical interests of men, and that both types of interests are still legitimate and should be respected. There are things that the Torah equated men with women, and there are things that it did not, and sometimes what was considered wrong in the past is right today, according to our intuitions (which are not the same as values). What is important is the truth, not the values, and a person needs to be honest with himself and say what the truth is in his eyes, not what values dominate the market today.

    1. In the month of Sivan,

      To the Lord, Shalom Rav,

      On the contrary, the perception that the values of the Torah change ‘according to the spirit of the times’ – is ‘value relativism’. The values of the Torah – are eternal values, and who is like the sages who labored day and night to study the written and transmitted Torah, faithful interpreters, both in the laws of the Torah and in its beliefs and values, and as Rabbi Ovadia of Bartonura explained that Tractate Avot opens ‘Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted…’ to teach us that even the words of the sages on matters of morality and virtue – Founded with the Torah from Sinai.

      With greetings, Elisaf Gershoni Bar-Zuk

  9. Perhaps there is another shade of midrashic conservatism that can be called vector conservatism. If the recipients of the command in the past were at level X and the command ordered them to advance up X+5, one could argue that the principle is to advance 5+ and therefore today the command is to advance to X+10. The conservative midrashim that you presented deal with finding the function given the points of the command (there are all kinds of points of law, what is the principle that generates them themselves) but do not deal with the derivative (where is the point of the command in relation to the previous point of the situation where the recipients were). Perhaps this is a slot that is suitable for reform. This is an argument that floats in the space of discussions in all sorts of places but it seems that it does not have an explicit reference in the columns (perhaps it is included in midrashic conservatism). What do you think?

    1. There are such moves, for example on the subject of the treatment of animals and their use (Rabbi Kook). But I don't think there is a conservative midrash out there that claims anything to change the halacha. It only says what is morally right to do. But in principle, if such a midrash is presented, it is definitely a type of conservative midrash.

      1. But why wouldn't "what is morally right to do" become a halakhic obligation in a conservative-vector magic wand? If the Torah forbade animal cruelty to groups of the population that it considered to be completely unimportant, and demanded more of them, then today it is a halakhic obligation for the Torah to go a step further and also to prohibit any use. Although the question of the limit is not defined, the Reformed posek will come and estimate the size of the step that the Torah required relative to its time, and then demand that the Torah take a similar step relative to our time. Thus, from the vector of policing sacrifices, one can move to their complete abolition, from the vector of granting rights to slaves, one can move to the abolition of slavery, from the obligation to tithe, one can move to a 38 percent obligation, from restrictions on the appearance of a person, one can move to complete restrictions, i.e., complete prohibition, and more. Or in a completely general way, to say that the Torah came to improve the theological, moral and social situation relative to what was, and therefore they too will improve relative to what was (according to their opinion what improvement is) and there is no need to discuss the specific details of the Torah at all, but rather the most general achievements that it tried to achieve relative to its time (in the way the teacher's tastes for the commandments are confused).
        If this is a type of conservative midrash, then why isn't this the missing square of the reform.

          1. What do you mean, this is not reform? Do you mean that reform is defined by you as heresy without any conservatism and therefore any interpretive claim is not reform? It seems to me that any reformer would easily sign the definition of himself as a vector conservative because in fact it frees him to do with the Torah as he wishes, and it seems to provide a theoretical basis for their whole thing.

            1. Not true. There are a lot of commandments for which there is no logical way to present their vector continuity. If you just present a midrash as if it were, then it is just nonsense. I am talking about an attitude towards real arguments and not collections of words that do not hold water.

              1. But I [also] proposed a general midrash on the whole of the Torah. In the book of Mora Nevuchim there is an idea that “the whole of the Torah means two things, namely, the correction of the soul and the correction of the body. Etc. The correction of the soul is that we should give ourselves to as many true opinions as we can, etc. The correction of the body will be in correcting the affairs of your lives, some with some.” So we can say that in their time the original commandments were somehow suitable for these corrections (we don’t have to know exactly how) and today each posk will decide how to achieve this “correction of the world” through other commandments.
                Are you just saying that it doesn’t hold water, or do you also not think that this is the method that is at the foundation of the reform or that it could be at its foundation (whether it holds water or not).

              2. I say both. It is highly unlikely that all of these commandments are intended to fix the world/society. That is all the more reason to read, and it is also very lame. And I also don't think that is what the Reformers think. In my opinion, they do not accept the obligation to all of the commandments at all, since they do not believe in the Torah from heaven and a significant portion of them do not believe in God either.

  10. Regarding the difference between motivation and tools, Rabbi Lichtenstein, zt"l, used to say about a certain type of criticism against rabbis ("If they wanted to, they would change") that it is a kind of: "If you want, it is not halakhic." This sentence, from someone who was absolutely not indifferent to hardships, embodies exactly the difference between someone who believes that hardship itself can be used as a basis for change, and someone whose hardship motivates him to seek a halakhic solution, including a creative or innovative solution, but halakhic.

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