Between temptation and rape (column 8)
With God’s help
Today I saw that my niece Talita is participating in the "Free Consent" operation in the north of the country, within the framework of which a campaign is being conducted that tries to clarify that a woman or girl's consent to sexual relations or any kind of contact must be given explicitly and that implicit or indirect consent is not enough. Among the campaign's slogans: "Hesitation is not," "Silence is not "Yes, this is a sexy dress." not "Yes," etc. As a result, a discussion arose in our family about this matter, and I thought that there were several fundamental aspects to it that were worth clarifying in more detail.
I will make it clear at the beginning of my remarks that even when there is explicit consent, I am not a fan of sexual freedom, and not just for halachic reasons. And yet this discussion extends far beyond the question of sexual freedom and is worth a read.
On nonverbal communication and permissiveness
There are many forms of communication between people, far beyond verbal communication. A person's desires can be understood in many ways, through body language, through various forms of communication, and more. This is especially true in the case of sex, which is not always explicitly stated, and like relationships between people in general, it is also based on a great deal of body language and mutual feelings. I think there are quite a few women and girls whose hesitation or silence is actually interpreted as "yes," and that is also their intention. While it can be suggested that it is still better to adopt a strict approach in order not to fall into misinterpretation, it is simply not true that hesitation or silence always means "no." notThis is nonsense. In many cases they mean yes Implicit. Even if this suggestion for a stricter interpretation is correct and appropriate, it is still difficult to accept the automatic accusation against someone who did not take it and interpreted the partner's approach differently. In many cases, he is right.
Sexual permissiveness has led society to treat the sexual act in a cheap and easy way. Almost every movie contains sex scenes as a standard. And now we are all surprised that people are so easy-going about having sex. That they don't make a big deal out of it. Such relationships are no longer the taboo they once were, so it's no wonder that people do things without prior in-depth consideration and without using sophisticated interpretive methods regarding their partners. What are you making a big deal out of such a banal thing?!
Furthermore, the feeling is that in many cases there is genuine consent on the part of the couple, but the indirect and implicit way allows one party to back down in retrospect and even accuse the other of assault or rape. This is an opening for manipulation and emotional abuse, sometimes precisely from the "weaker" side. Therefore, it is not unreasonable in my opinion to demand a clear denial from the woman and not to be satisfied with platitudes that state that hesitation means notIt is true that sometimes it is difficult for a woman to say this explicitly, and as is well known, sometimes when she is attacked she is paralyzed and cannot respond, but it is equally difficult for a man, and even more so for a boy, to avoid the necessary interpretation of implied terms on her part. At most, it can be said that the demand for clarity should be directed to both sides.
The Haredi solution
In a more conservative society, where sex is an act that occurs after the relationship is established, the problem hardly arises (rape and assault, of course, exist in such societies as well, but the double meaning and ambiguity are almost nonexistent there). Haredi society solves the problem with a complete separation between the sexes, and my feeling is that permissive society is returning to those realms without admitting it. Anti-permissive terrorism is being carried out to keep permissiveness intact, and of course people are amazed when they fail again and again. Permissiveness places teenagers (and adults) in an impossible situation, and demands that they behave like philosophers with sophisticated interpretive tools when the hormones are flowing through their maturing bodies at full force.
I can't help but recall the incessant mockery of my secular friends, so prevalent some thirty years ago, of the dark religious who object to a nice pinch on the buttocks of a girl passing by on the street, or whistles expressing sincere, heartfelt appreciation for her obvious intellectual qualities. Not to mention hanging pictures displaying these qualities on the walls for all to see. And now, today we have arrived at hysterical rules of proper integration in the army that are a direct result of this permissiveness, and campaigns that try to stop the all-too-natural products of the permissive approach. So the Haredim are still somewhat right, but of course no one will admit it.[1]
Between temptation and rape
But all of this is just a preliminary discussion. Beyond all of this, I think that a distinction should be made between the claims about silence or hesitation, and the claims about provocative clothing. The accepted assumption among the leaders of these campaigns is that a woman or girl is allowed to dress however she wants, and that this is her private matter. One way or another of her clothing does not allow anyone to harm her against her will. In principle, I tend to agree with this view, except for the question of the sexual message conveyed through clothing (which sometimes constitutes implicit consent, which I discussed above). But another question arises here, and that is to what extent temptation, even if there is no consent, is a contributory factor to the rape that follows.
These campaigners are shocked every time they raise this claim, but it doesn't stop them from raising it in other contexts. When Jews go up to the Temple Mount and want to pray there, it is only legitimate for the Arabs there to riot, use weapons, stab and murder them. Yehuda Glick (a remarkably moderate man, in my opinion, who is undergoing a terrible and apparently baseless media and political delegitimization) who has now entered the Knesset in place of the resigning Bogy Ya'alon, is perceived by the public as a mega-terrorist who is wreaking havoc on the Temple Mount. Simply a walking terrorist attack. For some reason, they forget that the disturbances and violence there are only caused by the Arabs. The Jews who go up to the Mount want to pray there, and the lovers of peace, tolerance and brotherhood of peoples (and of course freedom of worship) do not allow them to do that. When this claim is raised (very rarely, of course), they explain with good taste that the feelings of the Arabs must be taken into account, and that they should be understood to be rightly outraged, since their feelings were hurt by the provocation of the people who climbed the mountain. In my opinion, this is just one expression of the arrogance and racism of the left, which treats the Arabs as a kind of uncontrollable animal, from whom it is impossible to demand what is demanded of the Jews and ordinary people who are responsible for their actions and control their feelings.
If Jews want to march in Umm al-Fahm, the police will of course try to prevent them from doing so. After all, this is a provocation that could lead to violence for which the victims will be to blame (after all, the native animals around them cannot be required to control their justified anger).
So who is to blame for the Arabs stabbing and running amok? It's clear, Yehuda Glick is the provocateur who goes up to the Temple Mount and causes this unrest. The victim is to blame, because he brought this upon himself through his actions. How is this different from a girl who wears provocative clothing and brings the boys around her into a hormonal storm, which sometimes erupts in the form of sexual violence following an insufficiently thorough interpretation of consent or disagreement on her part? Why is the one who is to blame there the aggressor (the rapist) and here the one who is to blame is the victim (the temptress)?
Wait, what about you?
Of course, the other side of the same question can be directed at the religious-conservative-right-wingers (like me). On the one hand, you blame the Arabs and not the provocateurs who go up to the mountain, and at the same time you blame the girls who wear provocative clothing and not the person who attacks them. Decide, should you blame the provocateur who fell victim to violence or the person who attacked him?
It seems that both sides in this debate (right and left?) are failing at inconsistency. So who is right? Why aren't both sides acting consistently here? Where is the sane voice here?
Distinguishing between two levels
I think that in all these issues it is important to distinguish between two levels. When examining a specific case of violence, it is clear that the aggressor should be blamed (unless they seized an irresistible impulse. But this is not usually the case). Provocation, if there is one, is at most a consideration for mitigating the punishment, but it is clear that it does not remove the blame from the aggressor. This is with regard to a specific attack on a specific person. On the other hand, when there is a social phenomenon that repeats itself on a large scale, then it is not a problem of this or that person. In such a situation, society needs to examine itself. In addition to punishing the perpetrator, it must also ask itself how to prevent the situations that are prone to such violent outbreaks. If the phenomenon is widespread, then it is not a response by a non-normative person that requires local treatment of the violent factor. In widespread phenomena, normative people are also involved. But if a normative person reacts this way under the circumstances that prevail in our society, then we also need to address the circumstances that create this reaction, and not just the violent person himself.
Contrary to the Pavlovian response of various women's organizations, the argument against revealing and provocative clothing is a correct one, and it does not at all contradict the accusation of the aggressor. It is true that one way or another of dressing does not justify violence, and it is true that if there is violence it is very important to deal with the person who perpetrates it, but it is impossible to ignore the fact that clothing is part of what brings it about. Therefore, in such cases, violence must be dealt with and the person who perpetrates it must be punished, but at the same time, one must also try to neutralize the circumstances that gave rise to this violence.
These women's organizations and campaigns insist on addressing only one side of the equation, the violent men. Every time an allegation is made about provocation, it is rejected with the argument that such an allegation removes the blame from the aggressor. "My clothing is my personal matter and it does not authorize anyone to attack me," they say. It is true that no clothing authorizes attacking anyone, but the act is certainly part of what invites the attack. You have a contributing factor, and you should be aware of it. You cannot demand the full price necessary to solve the problem from others, without being willing to bear some of it yourself.
There is also a statistical issue here. Let's say that some provocation causes a violent reaction with a small chance, say 1/1000. So if it is a single person, there is no point in treating the situation itself, since the chance of violence is small, and if it does occur, the violent person must be treated. He acted in a non-normative manner. But if the provocation operates in society as a whole, we are talking about millions of people, and here the chance of 1/1000 leads to the almost certain occurrence of quite a few cases. Is it still correct to treat only the aggressors in such a case? After all, unlike individual people, a normative society is made up of many types of people. And in a completely normative way, a certain part of them reacts to such provocations with violence. Therefore, by the very fact that this is a situation that concerns many people, the non-normative response essentially becomes normative. And as such, it requires treatment on both sides of the equation.
The same women's organizations repeatedly advertise how broad and all-encompassing the phenomenon is, and how it does not depend on the type of person, society, socio-economic status, origin, etc. But if all of this is true, the obvious conclusion is that these are normative people and not deviants. In such a case, both sides of the coin should be addressed and not focused on just one of them.
So who is right?
The conclusion is that, at least in cases of widespread violence, there are usually two sides to the coin: the rapist and the tempter (who, contrary to what is accepted in halakhic terminology, here stand on opposite sides of the fence). The rapist (the aggressor) should bear the punishment, but the price required to prevent these acts should also be imposed on the tempter (the provocateur).
The difficult question is who is right, and to what extent should we place blame, and at what cost, on the seducer or the rapist? Three initial criteria can be proposed here for situations in which we do not place blame on the seducer:
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In our opinion, he has the right to act as he does. For example, a person whose very existence constitutes a provocation to another person does not have to bear the cost of preventing the violence that the other person inflicts upon him. For example, someone who thinks that it is a basic human right to go up to the Temple Mount to pray will not agree to impose a part of the cost of preventing violence on the Jews who go up to the Mount. Similarly, someone who thinks that it is a woman's right to dress as she wishes will not agree that she should bear part of the cost necessary to prevent violence. Someone who thinks that it is the right of the women of the Western Wall to put on tefillin and read the Torah as they wish will not agree to legitimize Haredi violence against them. He will not accept the claim that their actions constitute a provocation that invites Haredi violence. Someone who thinks that it is the right of homosexuals to march in pride parades will not demand a price from them in order to prevent violence against them. But what about those who don't recognize the right of homosexuals to march proudly everywhere? And those who don't think that the women of the Western Wall have the right to wear tefillin? Or those who think that a Jew has no right to go up to the Temple Mount to pray? These, of course, will put a price on the seducer and less on the rape.
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Sometimes it seems that there is a provocation, a pretext that comes to justify violence. The person (=rape) is not really hurt, but he claims to be hurt because he wants to use violence against the other party (=seducer). Here too, it is reasonable not to acknowledge that there was a provocation that brought about this violence, and to place the price on the rape and not to demand a price from the seductress.
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When the price demanded from the seducer is high relative to the price demanded from the violent party. For example, if a person walks completely naked on the street, it is reasonable not to say that he has the right to walk as he pleases and only those who harm him will be accused of violence. We will prevent him from walking on the street in a way that harms a large part of the public. Why? Because the harm to the public is substantial, and the harm to him is relatively negligible.
These criteria are two-sided. That is, in the opposite cases, we will definitely blame the provocateur (the temptress), and perhaps less so the one who acts against him (the rapist).
Nozick's Seduction Paradox
This reminds me of the paradox of the American philosopher Robert Nozick. Nozick asked why the law prohibits extortion and permits seduction? When I tell someone: "If you do X, I will give you 100 NIS" - this is of course a completely legitimate statement. A kind of deal. But if I tell him "If you don't do X, I will take 100 NIS" - this is prohibited extortion. What is the difference? After all, in both cases I create a balance with a difference of 100 NIS in favor of the party I am interested in. So why is one prohibited and the other permitted?
The answer is that if I take 100 NIS from him, I have violated a right he has. On the other hand, if I do not pay him 100 NIS, this is my right, and there is no violation of any right he has. What is the difference between these two cases? There is a level 0 in relation to which we define whether I take from him or just do not give him. The property he now has is level 0. This is the totality of the rights that each party has. If I threaten to take something from him – this is forbidden blackmail. On the other hand, if I offer to add something more to him – this is permitted temptation.
In our issue (rape and seduction) there is also a level 0, which is the rights that each side has in the argument. If the demand from him violates his rights, it is not legitimate. In such a case, we would prefer to punish the aggressor and leave the rights of the victim intact. But if punishing the aggressor is a violation of his own rights, then we will not hesitate to demand a price from the victim as well. The arguments are, of course, about the rights of each side (does a woman have the right to dress as she wants, do Jews have the right to pray on the Temple Mount or march in Umm al-Fahm, do the women of the Western Wall have the right to wear tefillin at the Western Wall, etc.).
Summary and conclusions
The implication of this is that the decision as to when to divide the price between rape and seduction, and how to properly make this division, depends on quite a few basic assumptions, some of which are implicit and most of which are not simple. The question is to what extent each side's actions are legitimate, how authentic the harm is, and what the significance of the prices imposed on each side is. All of these are questions that are subject to differences of opinion and quite subjective assessments.
To see this, think for a moment about the case that was published a few days ago (see here andhere) that took place at the Faculty of Law at the Hebrew University. At a graduation party for students, several girls who wanted to dance behind a partition were not allowed to do so. There, in the heart of the bastion of tolerant liberalism, a vote was held that yielded a majority against this "terrible provocation." This violent liberal terror was, of course, met with countless learned and elaborate justifications (and idiotic and baseless, of course), and what's worse, it also received a majority among the voters. It's horrifying to think that these scumbags are responsible for the rule of law and values in our society. What's the problem? One could easily argue that the dancers behind the partition are actually forcing the public not to see them. What right do they have to prevent us peaceful academics from watching their bouncing intellectual antics?[2] If this argument, which combines extreme wickedness and lack of intelligence, sounds reasonable and authentic to anyone, then it's really hard to predict how far arguments will go in debates between rape and seduction in less unambiguous cases. It seems that everything depends on the point of view (and no less on the wickedness and violence with which you conduct yourself).
This is indeed a simple case of violent coercion that has no justification. A clear case. But it is also not a case of seductive rape, but of secular coercion in the first place. In contrast, the other cases mentioned so far involve both a rapist and a seducer, and they are not so simple. I have a position regarding all the examples raised here, but I do not have a clear and universal criterion and I certainly do not know how to convince readers to agree with me in all these cases. I only hope that I have at least succeeded in showing in my words here that the problem is quite complicated, and perhaps these words will motivate people to try and get to the bottom of the other side's soul and prevent shallow and flat discourse as is customary in our circles. In all these debates, each side is convinced that it is right, of course, and the other is simply talking nonsense. One tells the other that he is an aggressor and the other replies that he is a provocateur. In fact, in many cases both are right: indeed, he is an aggressor (rapist) and his friend is a provocateur (seducer). And yet the question of what conclusions to draw from this depends on our assumptions about the initial rights of the parties. It is not enough to determine that there is provocation or aggression here to reach conclusions. If we put the underlying assumptions on the table, there is at least a chance of having an intelligent and perhaps even constructive discourse about such problems.
[1] Of course, there are also costs to closure. It sometimes leads to difficult actions that are done in secret, and prevents courageous treatment of such problems when they arise. I am not advocating an ultra-Orthodox approach here, not even in this area. But there is certainly room for more balance on the issue of permissiveness. We should not take it for granted and only deal with plugging loopholes so that the entire dam does not collapse. Sometimes it is worth considering bringing down the dam itself.
[2] I later read that the organizers of that corrupt party sent an apology to Muslim students who were unable to attend the party because it was held on some Muslim date. Enlightened and thoughtful liberalism, did we mention that?
Shimon Yerushalmi:
I enjoyed and learned from reading. May the power of things be upon you, be strong and courageous!
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Rabbi:
thanks.
Nathaniel:
Hello Rabbi Michi, I enjoyed it very much.
In my opinion, there is a difference between permissive clothing and ascending the Temple Mount. A distinction must be made between a case where my goal was to cause the other party to feel X, but the other party escalated and performed actions that correspond to a level of 3X, and cases where I had no intention of causing feelings of the extreme type in the attacker. Provocative clothing is usually intended to cause sexual arousal in the viewer. Sexual violence results from very great sexual arousal, more than expected from provocative clothing. In other words, the attacker escalated the same feelings that the purpose of the clothing itself was to cause him.
In the ascent to the Temple Mount, of course, for many the purpose of the ascent is not to anger the Arabs (X), so even though this action creates violence on the other side (3X), it is harder to blame the immigrants for this. This is similar to a secular person traveling on Shabbat and incurring the wrath of a fanatical Haredi. The purpose of the trip was not to anger the Haredi, and therefore the secular side is more legitimate.
Just one thing, I don't mean that at level 3X the violent behavior is legitimate, but only that there is a connection between the feelings of the attacker and the feelings that the attacked wanted to cause with the attack, and at level 3X the prevalence of violence is higher.
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Rabbi:
Hello Nathaniel.
I completely agree. What you're saying is that the provocateur's intentions should also be taken into account, and that will also be factored into the price distribution.
I will just note that it is very difficult to diagnose and quantify the intentions of the parties. I assume that some of those who go up to the Temple Mount intend to provoke, even if it is clearly not all of them (and probably not most of them). Perhaps most of them have some measure of defiance in going up to the Mount, and some will see it as a provocation.
Also wearing immodest clothes, if you ask, there will be quite a few women who will tell you that it is not made for men at all (0X). Especially when it comes to clothes that are simply more comfortable (tank tops, shorts). Just as an example, every time I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I see the unfortunate women who walk (actually swing) on heels like the Eiffel Tower and can't really move. I personally don't know any men who like it. When I commented on this to some of my addicts, I was told that it is not for men at all. They themselves like it. You know...
Volunteer:
Excellent article, thanks. A few comments –
1. Regarding the case at the Hebrew University Faculty of Law – I don't understand why it's a "clear case". Although there is clear coercion there, this coercion comes (according to the logical arguments I've heard) to benefit those religious girls. Just as it is clear that a person is forced not to use heroin (or sell organs, or sell their body for prostitution, or commit suicide) even without it having a negative effect on the environment but only because it is not good for the person themselves, so it is possible to force other things that may harm them. There is a widespread (and well-founded, as far as I know) perception that religious conservatism in the sexual sphere harms (mainly) women, and therefore it is appropriate to prevent this harm (i.e. the statement that 'female dancing should be hidden from men') even if it comes from the girls' own choice. This is of course taking a step forward in coercion, but fundamentally there is no real difference here.
(The letter sent to the Muslim students kind of ruins the coherence, to be honest.)
2. There is no identity between doing an inappropriate act and allowing harm to the perpetrator. Most cases fall into the intermediate case – a person who does an inappropriate act (which even harms me) and yet I will not harm him. The example of a person walking naked on the street is an excellent example of this, because I assume that although most people are harmed by it in some way, the majority will choose to cross to the other side of the sidewalk and ignore him. In my opinion, the situation is like this with regard to revealing clothing. The public norm in the field of clothing *harms* people (mainly men, mainly young people, mainly single people) and therefore it can be legitimate to prohibit it by law (by the way, the law does not define a prohibition on public nudity, but rather "improper behavior in a public place – 216. (a) Whoever does one of the following is punishable by six months' imprisonment: (1) Behaves in a wild or indecent manner in a public place"). This does not make harming a person who is dressed in revealing clothing appropriate, but it does make it understandable.
3. As far as I understand, the main argument against revealing clothing is that no connection has been proven between revealing clothing and an increase in the number of sexual assaults, but this is a preliminary claim that is unrelated to the article.
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Rabbi:
Hello, volunteer.
1. With such arguments you can get anywhere. I will kill someone if I think it is better for him to die than to live (for example, if he is a religious person who dances separately). Is this a reasonable argument in your opinion? Within the accepted limits of reasonableness, a person who makes a decision of his own free will and with full knowledge and is not small or foolish or drugged, and does not harm others, even if in your opinion it harms him to some extent, should be allowed to act as he understands. If you impose your opinions on him, even if in your opinion he harms himself, that is not liberalism. At the next stage, there will be a religious majority at the university and they will force everyone to dance separately and pray three times a day in the name of liberalism (so that they do not harm themselves in their next world). Would these liberals accept this? If you accept such arguments, then liberalism and tolerance are emptied of their content. As we know, any argument can be substantiated if you build an argument based on ad hoc premises that prove it. What would not be liberal by this definition? After all, I can always say that in my opinion the other person is harming me or himself. There are criteria of reasonableness.
In light of your paragraph 2, I would comment that what happened at the university was not that the "liberals" moved to the other side, but that they hurt the girls who wanted to dance as they saw fit.
The assumption of a public institution is that no one can impose behavior on another as long as they act reasonably and do not harm others. It is impossible to defend the thesis that girls who put up a barrier around themselves harm others. It would not pass any High Court in the world (speaking of the Faculty of Law).
2. It is clear that there is no identity. Where did I write that there is? I wrote that provocation diminishes the attacker's guilt and justifies an action that harms the provocateur even though he is the victim.
3. I think that even without much research, it is clear that the more provocative a woman is, the more fire she attracts and the more arousing her surroundings are (some do it for this reason). But that really doesn't matter to the fundamental issue I was dealing with.
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Volunteer:
It is true that such arguments 'can go anywhere', and therefore they must be taken in consideration of many other valid arguments. My principled point is that the discussion starts from a point where there is coercion (i.e. - I think X is good and therefore I will force so-and-so to do X) and certain considerations are needed (which exist in abundance) in order for me to avoid coercion. The opposite starting point - that there is no coercion at all - simply does not work in reality. The expression says 'live and let live', meaning as long as you do not harm others - do what you want, but this simply does not exist in reality. The mainstream imposes many things - prohibitions on suicide, prostitution, the sale of organs, drug use - not on the grounds that 'it harms others' (even if it harms others) but on the grounds that 'it is not good for you'. Even the great liberals of marijuana legalization claim 'marijuana is harmless', not 'my right to ruin my own life'.
This also seems to be the approach of halakhic law with claims like "Let no one from among the Pharisees forbid me" and the like. The de facto result that there is almost no coercion stems from many variables (including the fact that coercion will make the other person hate me, etc.), but the starting point – both in Judaism and in society at large – is that there is coercion.
PS: There are extreme liberals who will say that the most important thing for a person is the very choice ("live and let die") and they really bypass this obstacle, but they are rare in the landscape (beyond that, you can also introduce a philosophy in which letting me decide for myself is actually forcing free choice on me...).
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Rabbi:
It is clear that absolute liberalism is a utopia, and it is clear that there is coercion everywhere, and certainly in the halakhic perception. So what? First, as I wrote, they argue for liberalism and not halakhic. Second, I did not argue in favor of utopian liberalism. What I said is that their arguments in that specific case, with all the considerations, are foolish. The fact that sometimes the situation is complex does not mean that everything can be legitimate and that every opinion is possible. After all, I also wrote that considerations depend on starting points and that there are complex considerations. That was exactly the content of my words. However, I excluded what happened there from that because in my opinion it is a clear case (if we do not get carried away and get hung up on empty formalism), and therefore it cannot depend on the complexity of considerations of coercion and liberalism.
In halakhic law, the accepted view is clearly coercive, although even there there is room for a range of opinions. The discussion here is not halakhic but moral.
The parentheses of the N.B. are really empty formalisms of the kind I mentioned earlier.
generation:
I really enjoyed it, definitely an interesting discussion.
But I can't hide my disappointment with the rabbi's speech. It would have been possible to avoid all kinds of sexual descriptions (pinches on the bouncing buttocks), descriptions of clothing, etc.
I really like the site and its content.
thanks
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Rabbi:
It was indeed possible. Thank you.
Isaac:
You say you oppose sexual freedom, but regardless of the law,
I wanted to ask what problem you see with permissiveness and why you see it as a problem,
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Rabbi:
I think that masturbation is very problematic, especially among teenagers. The main problem is that masturbation cheapens physical relationships and empties them of essential content. By the way, I said that I think this way even without the halacha, but of course it is intensified in light of the halacha.
Eric:
I don't think the argument of those opposed to the partition was (i.e. someone may have argued this, but more reasonable arguments were also made) that the girls there are prevented from seeing them by the rest (no one suggested requiring all the girls to come to the prom). The argument is the fear that it will have a negative impact (in the eyes of the opponents) on the public atmosphere by making the separation more legitimate and familiar. (Not that I am against separation, I am just stating the views of some people).
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Rabbi:
It is clear that they did not propose to force all of them to come, but the argument was that they did not want a partition. The fact that they would not come is a result of this policy. The question is why do they not want a partition? What I argued is that the reason is their right to see the girls. This is of course cynical, as I cannot see any other logical reason.
What you are suggesting is the fear of a negative impact, but such a fear also arises when someone comes to a ball without a kippah or modest clothing. Does the demand to require everyone to come in a kippah sound reasonable to anyone? Or perhaps to demand that women not sing (which is much more legitimate because women's singing really bothers some religious men)? Poke Hezi how this legitimate demand is treated in public today.
You can always say that the behavior of the other person with whom you disagree has a bad effect. After all, this is true by definition, because when you let the other person act as they want, it can always affect someone. That's what is called intolerance, right? According to this logic, it is also forbidden to talk about the fact that it is better to dance separately, because that also has an even worse effect (someone might still be convinced). And it is also forbidden to walk with a kippah, because that might lead people to walk with a kippah.
In short, this is nonsense. It's a shame to waste energy on it.
Tal Yumal:
In the case of the vote at the university, the faculty threatened not to budget for the party (at a level that would not allow it to take place) if there was a divide... so the fact that there was a fairly small majority of voters against it is already something.
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Rabbi:
Long live democracy. That's how Assad would probably win any election in Syria.