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The Third Path: On LGBTQ, “Lite” Religiosity, and Harmful Criticism (Column 728)

With God’s help

Today I was sent a post by Yael Mashali responding to a letter from the Council of Rabbis of Binyamin. The Binyamin Regional Council decided to invite the gay singer Eden Hason to perform. The Council of Rabbis of Binyamin subsequently published the following letter:

Right from the start I must say that I very much appreciated the unavoidable call for unity—meaning, to let the matter go from here on out so that there be no dispute. In other words, after their demands were met—“from now on, let’s coordinate the summer shows together”—we are all called to remain united and prevent controversy. How beautiful, and how typical. Truly like “Torah scholars who increase peace in the world” (much like Yasser Arafat, who could be considered the world champion in the number of peace agreements he signed).

On this painful issue, Yael Mashali published: Next responseI will not copy it here due to its length; I will only say that Mashali explains to them that they are irrelevant and calls on the public to ignore this benighted stance and to embrace their many LGBTQ children, as numerous as the sand on the seashore. Needless to say, I agree with the spirit of her words and with the assessment that this is a problematic rabbinic stance. Still, the response jarred me, and I think it does more harm than good. As I will explain, it exemplifies a broader and more general phenomenon, and thus it is worthwhile to analyze it

Inviting the Artist, or the Community’s Attitude Toward LGBTQ People

Mashali—without much noticing—moved from the specific question of inviting a gay artist to perform, which served as the trigger for her post, to the broader question of the appropriate communal and familial treatment of LGBTQ people. This shift is important for what I wish to say here.

The question of inviting such an artist seems to me much simpler, and it is far more reasonable to oppose the rabbis’ position on it. The rabbinic committee bases itself on slogans about harming the values and sanctity of the family in Israel. I fail to see how and in what way this causes harm. Will there be children in the audience who are not LGBTQ who, following the performance, will be convinced to become so? Or might there be those who are LGBTQ who, if such an artist is not invited, will be convinced and return to being straight? Perhaps a few boys and girls are in some intermediate situation, but I very much doubt the extent to which, in a religious society, someone who has a choice will choose to present as LGBTQ simply because they feel like it. Usually it is someone who is that way—not due to the influence of this or that artist. They simply have no choice. In my view, the opposite concern—that such calls push LGBTQ people into a corner and plunge them into severe distress—is far more serious.

Beyond that, do they think it is permissible to invite an artist who desecrates the Sabbath, or who eats non-kosher food? I assume such objections would not arise. In any case, I have not heard similar objections to such artists. Among the rabbis there is a taboo surrounding the LGBTQ phenomenon—perhaps in part a reaction to the struggle waged by LGBTQ activists themselves, at times with violent or silencing tactics. And yet I do not see substantive justification for this. On the contrary, the concern about influence and legitimization of Sabbath desecration—something that is subject to a teenager’s decision—exists much more than the concern of influencing someone to become LGBTQ, which, as noted, is usually not up to them. Even from the artist’s perspective, being LGBTQ does not depend on him, whereas desecrating the Sabbath certainly does. The LGBTQ artist simply is who he is and has little choice in the matter (he is anus—coerced, in halakhic terms), and therefore he is certainly less culpable and less wicked than the artist who desecrates the Sabbath.

In short, by every parameter I can think of, there seems to be far less logic in inviting a Sabbath-desecrating artist than in inviting a gay artist. So why is everyone fighting for the “sanctity of the family”? In my estimation, although lofty values and spiritual declarations are draped over the issue, at bottom this is merely a social taboo—one that naturally takes longer to change within a religious society. It is very convenient to clothe these primal feelings in halakhic garb. It seems to me that “Hardal” rabbis (ultra-conservative religious-Zionists) in general focus obsessively on LGBTQ phenomena and wage desperate and hopeless holy wars against them; this too, in my opinion, stems from taboo and psychological fixation rather than from ethical or spiritual deliberation.

Mashali's response

If one truly chooses to focus on the relationship to LGBTQ people rather than on the question of inviting the artist, I would expect at least a few words to be devoted to the halakhic prohibition. The elephant in the room is not mentioned at all in her remarks, and I get the impression that it does not interest her. She treats the phenomenon as if it were some hobby of children, and the rabbis’ stance as a random craze—on the part of rabbis, parents, and the religious community at large. Hello! There is a severe biblical prohibition—arayot (forbidden sexual relations), one of the cardinal sins for which one must be killed rather than transgress (yehareg ve’al ya’avor)—namely, mishkav zachar (male–male intercourse). I would expect that, before preaching to the rabbis, Mashali would open with something like: “Granted, this is a severe halakhic prohibition,” and then add a description of the realities and hardships, and of the need—and duty—to address the phenomenon and its people in an inclusive manner.

Why is this important? Because my concern here is not Yael Mashali or her response per se. It is symptomatic of a style of debate that gravely harms the just struggle for the proper treatment of LGBTQ people. Responses like Mashali’s present the picture exactly as the rabbis wish to present it: on one side stand the rabbis—the God-fearing, uncompromisingly committed to Halakhah and Torah—who bravely and firmly fight for the values of Torah and holiness against the winds of the time; and against them stand a few “lite” types, shouting liberal and progressive slogans as though these were Torah values. The truly religious versus the “lites.” Note that this is precisely how those Hardal rabbis would like to frame the struggle, and in this sense Mashali plays into their hands.

How was it appropriate to respond?

So what should she have done? As stated, one cannot argue about the fact of the prohibition or its severity. It is present, as it were, in black fire upon white fire, in the Written and Oral Torah and throughout the poskim. I noted above that, in my view, one should begin by stating that this is an extremely severe prohibition, agreed upon by all decisors, and that “there is no counsel against the Lord.” After that preface, it is very important to explain that fear of Heaven does not mean callousness, nor does it mean ignoring reality and its complexities. Despite the prohibition, a person endowed with these tendencies cannot overcome them; in halakhic terms, he is anus—coerced. I do not think there is a greater coercion than this. In this context I usually cite the Talmud (Ketubot 33a–b), which discusses whether flogging is more severe than death:

As the Talmud (Ketubot 33a–b) suggests: death may be more severe than flogging, yet unending flogging that breaks a person’s resolve can be harder to withstand than a one-time threat of death; ordinary people cannot endure limitless suffering with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Note: while death is certainly more severe and more painful than flogging, unending flogging—continuing throughout life until one capitulates—can be more severe and painful than the threat of death. Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, who sacrificed their lives and entered the fire in order not to worship idols—had they been flogged in such a fashion, they would presumably have yielded. Why? Because a reasonable person (and even an unreasonable one) cannot endure continual suffering with no light at the end of the tunnel. In the end, one breaks. By the same token, a person can be required to refrain from sexual relations for a period (for example, during his wife’s niddah), but a person cannot avoid sexual relations for his entire life. Here he will surely break; this is genuine compulsion. Therefore, even though there is no halakhic way out—no permission—for this severe prohibition, the appropriate halakhic-Torah treatment of such people is to regard them as fully coerced (anusim). Certainly more coerced than Sabbath desecrators, men who have relations during niddah, or those who eat pork. And yet, on the conservative side, for some reason, all these are treated with wondrous inclusion and outreach, while LGBTQ people are targeted by a resolute and uncompromising crusade.

Such a response would cast the disagreement in a completely different light from the one I described above: we are all committed to Torah and fear of Heaven; we all value the sanctity of the family and the values of Halakhah; and yet there remains a debate about how to proceed. This is not “lite-ness” versus piety, as conservatives and Hardalim delight in portraying it (and as Mashali’s response suggests), but rather a debate about what fear of Heaven and commitment to Torah and Halakhah actually demand. The claim is that Torah and Halakhah themselves oblige us to accommodate the phenomenon and to give these people a place in the community like any other person. That is an entirely different statement, and it offers a real alternative to the conservative approach expressed in the letter cited above. Such an argument also stands a chance of being accepted (in my estimation, they too will eventually tire of the “jihad” against LGBTQ people and will understand what the whole world has already understood. It takes them time to adjust, since rabbis and religious people in general tend to conservatism and to clinging to social taboos and fixations. Among them—among us—change always takes longer; but it is already here, and I am fairly certain it will continue to advance).

Theological and Meta-Halakhic Comment

One can of course wonder: if this is indeed the situation, why does the Torah prohibit it? If one truly cannot withstand this prohibition, what is the point of prohibiting it? Take, for example, the prohibition of theft. Some suffer from kleptomania (a tendency to steal). The prohibition applies to them as well, of course, though they likely cannot withstand it, and therefore, if they violate it, they will likely be considered coerced. So what is the point of prohibiting it? Here the answer is simpler: it was indeed prohibited because of ordinary people who can withstand it. If we were all kleptomaniacs, the Torah would presumably not have prohibited it. Hence the prohibition exists; once established, it applies to everyone—including kleptomaniacs—though they will be regarded as coerced regarding it. What about homosexuality? There, the situation appears different, since, unlike kleptomania, everyone for whom this prohibition is relevant is a person with such a tendency, and therefore cannot withstand it. So what is the point of prohibiting it?

Elsewhere I cited R. Moshe Feinstein (RMF), who argues that the Torah does not place a person in a test he cannot withstand. From this he concludes that homosexuality cannot be an innate, natural tendency; it must be a choice—people are capable of choosing otherwise. In his view, it is necessarily the counsel of the evil inclination; otherwise, the Torah would not prohibit it. Now consider the conclusions if one understands that he erred about the facts. In most cases it is an innate and natural tendency (I will not enter here the question of genetics; that is irrelevant to this discussion). If we reject RMF’s factual premise, then his meta-halakhic premise—that the Torah does not test a person with what he cannot withstand—necessarily leads to the opposite conclusion: the prohibition does not apply to those who have such a tendency. It was stated only regarding those who act from desire while having another option (straight people driven by desire, or bisexuals). This line of reasoning could lead to an actual halakhic heter (permission) for the act itself—at least for those whose inclination is such.

As for me, I do not know whence RMF derived his meta-halakhic premise. To me it seems entirely unfounded, and precisely because of this I cannot justify permitting the act even for those whose inclination is such. Therefore I wrote above that, in my view, the prohibition exists for them as well, only that they are coerced (anusim).

But even if one asks all the questions and finds no answers, good questions do not change reality. In our case, even if one adopts RMF’s meta-halakhic premise (that the Torah does not demand from us what we cannot withstand), I do not see how he can derive factual conclusions from it (that it is always a matter of desire and not an ingrained tendency). Reality owes us nothing. To understand and know it, one must make observations and examine it with open eyes, not perform pilpul based on theological assumptions. Questions—however good the theology—are not a sufficient basis for making factual determinations about reality, certainly when they contradict experience and what one sees. Therefore, even if one adopts RMF’s position, the conclusion that it necessarily always involves mere desire rather than an ingrained tendency is baseless, and there is no logical reason to accept it. At the same time, as noted, there is also no real justification for the approach that for those with such tendencies there is no prohibition at all.

General implications: The third path

I have tried to explain why “lite” arguments against the commonly accepted rabbinic approach toward LGBTQ people can greatly harm a justified struggle. I showed that there is a more correct and effective way to critique the conservative approach—namely, on the basis of halakhic and Torah arguments (and, of course, factual ones). This principle applies to debates about change in Halakhah more generally.

In many cases, critics and innovators advance “lite” arguments—explaining that this or that stance is immoral or unethical, or how it will be received in the broader world; pointing to problematic outcomes (see the series of columns 475480 On Modern Orthodoxy, and in particular in the column 478where I explained the difference between it and Reform. The main difference concerns whether one relies on consequentialist considerations). In doing so, they play into conservative hands and shoot their own justified struggle in the foot. Conservatives are careful to portray their opponents as “lites,” and such criticism is indeed “lite.” Instead, arguments for change must be advanced in halakhic terminology and through halakhic thinking and considerations. Morality can motivate; the justification must be halakhic and Torah-based. The non-“lite” critic claims that the conservatives are halakhic transgressors, not merely that they are immoral. We must understand that identifying anyone who is not conservative/Hardal as “lite” is a manipulation by Hardalim and conservatives, and we must not cooperate with it. Mashali’s (otherwise justified) form of criticism is an excellent example of this matter; it serves as a parable for the general rule. One might almost say: with defenders like these, one does not need prosecutors

The Third Path raises the banner of a Torah- and Halakhah-based alternative, not the banner of “morality” against the halakhic banner. Our aim is to show that there is another Torah, not to attack the Torah and commitment to it in the name of morality and contemporary values. It is important to understand that this mistake runs so deep within all of us that many who do not identify with Haredi or Hardal approaches perceive themselves (!) as “lites,” and thus do not permit themselves to break free of the erroneous and deeply problematic models of Torah and Halakhah.

I have often said that, in the era of the Haskalah, young people were presented with an impossible dilemma: to be wise and wicked, or righteous and foolish. It is no wonder that most of the public chose to be wise and wicked, and thus secularism emerged. The flip side was those who chose to be righteous and foolish—thus conservatism and Haredi-ism were born: religious conceptions that are benighted, detached, and foolish. Framing the discussion and dilemma in this way causes double harm: we lost the wise who leave and exit, and those who remain hold to a dark Torah. This is also what is happening today—partly due to conservatives and their mode of debate, and partly due to these forms of criticism against them. The critics themselves cause Torah and Halakhah to remain on the dark side; anyone moral and logical is thereby non-religious or non-Jewish—or, at most, “lite.” In this way, by means of this problematic form of criticism, we ourselves lend a hand to the terrible hillul Hashem (desecration of God’s name) committed by conservatives and to the transformation of Judaism into a dark and repulsive Torah, as is happening today.

This is why the conceptualization of the Third Path is so important. Our point is to say that it is not a “lite” offshoot of one of the two existing paths, but an alternative path. Without such conceptualization, no genuine change in Torah and Judaism themselves is possible, and we are doomed to live within the dreadful dichotomy I described—where being Jewish means being stupid, disconnected from honest reasoning and from facts, and immoral.

45 תגובות

  1. Eden Hasson is a singer, not a stand-up comedian (Shahar Hasson is the stand-up comedian, and he is not gay)

  2. I actually feel quite a bit that even on the "light" side, there is no shortage of great fools, God willing. And in fact, in discussions like this, even more so.

    1. I agree, but I think that it is usually not stupidity but rather laziness that does not understand the complexity and religious constraints and therefore raises problematic criticisms like this that appear to the religious person as a lack of understanding. In fact, it is probably a lack of care for Halacha and Torah.

        1. The comparison between LGBT people and Sabbath desecrators is unfair. The LGBT community does not quietly endure offenses on its own, it holds Torah desecration parades, many of which also deliberately disrespect the Torah.
          On the other hand, those who desecrate Shabbat do not hold Shabbat desecration parades. They do desecrate in public, but not as a matter of principle. (Of course, there are those who do, but they are a negligible minority.)

  3. I will only refer to the crudest and most common demagogic exercise – the assumption of an “LGBT” or gay phenomenon. One can declare the existence of a “usury community” that includes usury lenders and usury borrowers, a “prostitution community” that includes prostitutes and adulterers, a “drug community” that includes consumers and dealers. And then conduct “studies” that claim that this is an uncontrollable impulse, but without examining the data from that “study” it will be clear that this is a “fake.” Indeed, a usury lender and a usury borrower are under the same prohibition, but it is clear that these are two phenomena that are economically or motivationally different. The same goes for a drug dealer and a drug addict, a prostitute and an adulterer, lying down and lying down.
    It is true that the one who lies and the one who lies are called "homosexual" and are under the same Torah prohibition, but this is only because the existence of one without the other is impossible, just as there is no prostitute without an adulterer, a usurer without a usurer, a drug dealer without a junkie. Therefore, it is clear that any claim about an "uncontrollable urge" regarding homosexuals is a lie.
    One could propose such a model – indeed, the one who lies is a rapist like a loan shark who desperately needs money or is being tricked. But the one who lies is just a sadist. (It turns out that in all languages, but all of them, the expression "I will have sexual intercourse with you" is the same as "I will humiliate you", "I will punish you", I will take revenge on you")
    Therefore, whoever wishes to prohibit tendencies that are dynastic must also prohibit lying down, just as one cannot permit trade without permitting consumption, permit prostitution without permitting adultery, etc.

      1. Wow! What depth of reasoning! A masterpiece of philosophical thinking! Not only am I sure I want to leave this comment and your reply under my name, but I'm also taking a screenshot to immortalize this philosophical discussion.

      2. Congratulations on the important things. The topic came up in two lines and I would love to know your opinion on the struggle that operates in extremism against other extremism, (which exists in many political and religious spheres today). I have always believed that in most cases creating balance is an end that does not justify the means, especially after I saw that even Maimonides, with his famous method of the middle path, writes a little differently in Teaching the Perplexed.
        thanks

        1. I can offer the answer from the michi-bot:

          Two levels must be distinguished:

          Public tactic: “Extreme against extremism” in order to “balance” – this is usually a mistake. It preserves extremist language, fosters fundamentalism, and obscures the substantive debate. The appropriate alternative is not anti-extremism but rather positing a well-organized halakhic argument and opening a third path: to criticize from the language of halakhic and method, and not through moral shaming or “breaking a market.” This is exactly the spirit of the “third path”: to base criticism “in halakhic terms” and raise the flag of a Torah-halakhic alternative, instead of an anti-extremist campaign.

          “Does balance justify means?” There is no blanket answer to it. It is a question that sounds profound, but without a concrete context it is “almost empty of content”; one must always get down to the specific case, weigh the values and the precise framing, and then discuss.

          And what about the Maimonides and the “middle path”? It is important not to be mistaken: the “middle path” for the Maimonides is a measured norm, not a license to create opposing extremes in the name of balance, nor a “hesitant middle.” Rabbi Michael Avraham emphasizes that the Maimonides speaks of measurement and moderation that lead precisely to the middle – not of a jolt between poles or of “balances” that sanctify every means.

          Beyond that, attempting to “educate through extremism” feeds exactly what they seek to curb: a fundamentalism that eliminates doubt and criticism. Therefore, even at the level of culture and discourse, the recommendation is to prefer rational, complex, and precise argumentation – not to replace one extremism with another.

          Bottom line: We do not fight extremism with extremism. We fight by proposing a substantive-halakhic alternative and by adhering to conceptual and methodological precision. “Balance” is not a super value that justifies crooked tools; our goal is truth and halakhic law, not counterbalance games.

    1. It takes two to dance tango, and the same goes for male intercourse. I am not familiar with this, nor do I know whether a study has been conducted from which it can be understood who prefers to be the one lying down and who the one lying down, and perhaps there is also a reversal of roles. In any case, if this is indeed an innate tendency and not some sexual curiosity or mere lust of the flesh, then it is not at all similar to lending money on interest or to prostitution and adultery. And in general, regarding the issue that the Torah does not put a person through a test that cannot be resisted, that he learned from a beautiful woman, only the righteous went to war, and if so, what is your mind? If you are afraid that you will not withstand the test, you can get rid of it with the excuse of "fear and tenderness of heart," and yet the Torah permitted it. It must be investigated whether this is something innate in that person, since when it is not a time of war, he was not permitted to do so on the grounds of prostitution. Therefore, people who truly have an innate tendency are considered rapists.

      1. The common denominator between a bed-ridden person, a prostitute/adulterer, a drug dealer/junko, a usurer/borrower is that in all these pairs, one can identify one side who is in distress and perhaps even arousing compassion, and the other side who exploits his distress and is beyond reproach. There is no escape from incriminating one without incriminating the other.

  4. 1. Assuming that homosexual orientation is a broad spectrum and not a binary orientation (there are also those who are bisexual and attracted to both sexes), the rabbis' war of prohibition against homosexuals is understandable, more so than against Sabbath desecrators. In order to preserve the illegitimate act in conservative societies as such, many on the continuum will move in the "positive" direction, and even those who are homosexual will do so out of choice and not proudly declare that they are so.

    2. You criticize the attack tactic against the mustards, which only plays into their hands, but you do not offer an alternative that aligns with the liberals' motivation. They want to legalize gays. To legalize the act itself. You do not bring up a midrashic conservatism that meets this need. Therefore, this is not a good issue to illustrate the separate path of the third path.

    1. 1. I wrote that it is unlikely in my opinion, because a religious guy certainly wouldn't do it if he had another option. The opposite concern is more serious. They themselves usually don't say so either. From their perspective, everything seems to be a sin and a natural instinct.
      2. Anyone who wants to undermine the halakhic obligation is not a light. He is an infidel.

      1. In my opinion, what deters conservatives is not the scenario of a religious guy who is constantly debating which direction to go. But rather of a young boy who is undecided about his sexual identity, and the legitimization of homosexuality will give him a push in the homosexual direction (which is often irreversible in many ways).
        Therefore, it is different from a coach who violates the Sabbath.

        1. How exactly would a push in this direction cause homosexual attraction to become fixed? Attraction does not depend on external legitimacy, perhaps the decision to put it into practice does.
          But do we really want people to observe laws because of pressure from their environment? In my opinion, this is a bad approach that does more harm than good.

  5. In my opinion, the correct response is similar to what you wrote at the beginning of the article (a paragraph that begins with "the question of inviting such an artist"). Your halachic analysis can be disputed, and I'm not sure I agree with it either. What's important is that it's non-personal. It doesn't matter what the world will say if they don't invite him, nor does it matter whether what he does at home is against halachic law. A singer is, for that matter, no different from an air conditioning technician. The only thing that matters is whether he sings well or not, and all this background check has to pass.

  6. What about the point that Eden Hasson may not be having sex at all?

    Do you accept Polisok's argument regarding the distinction between cohabitation and the prohibition of male intercourse?

    1. This has nothing to do with the question of whether to invite him. That is an educational question, not sanctions on a criminal.

  7. Just a really innocent question. Where do you get the idea that someone who is unable to actually fulfill the commandments of Pro and Rabu or Ona is considered a slave? Have you ever heard of "the man Moses" who divorced his wife? I don't remember anything happening since the divorce.
    Have you heard of Ben Azzai who said, "What shall I do, my soul yearns for Torah?" And he did not marry because of that (and some say he married and immediately divorced). Therefore, I suggest you delete this line, since you are openly disgracing yourself here, since you are supposedly firmly stating things that you have not researched or examined, and since this statement is completely unfounded, then what is left for the public to think? You are actually giving us a subtle hint here, like an elephant, of what your situation would be like without the ability to maintain a married life, and that is, you would be forced to commit any kind of sexual offense that would kill a person and not be tolerated (to put it mildly). It is not appropriate that in the same post you published about "the righteous and the foolish" {"the wicked and the wise"} you would openly expose yourself like that. I am writing this solely for your own benefit. You do not have to type yourself in to know every time a third-way WhatsApp group explodes in yours, some damned person (especially in matters of sexuality, how do you always say "passenish") and share it with us in the threads and turn it into a post.

    1. I am touched by your sincere concern for my well-being. Perhaps when I recover from this I will try to see if there is anything in the collection of nonsense written here.

  8. Is a person whose only sexual arousal and satisfaction is pedophilia also said to be a rapist, since he cannot maintain himself forever and abstain from sex?
    Why don't we adopt another alternative: even if this is indeed his only sexual solution, he will still preserve himself in another way, for example through castration?
    Thank you very much!

    1. Indeed, a pedophile can also be a rapist. But here there is harm to others and therefore he is not like us. Like a kleptomaniac.
      The question of castration is interesting. At first glance, I tend not to go in that direction. A person should not castrate himself, and Anark is because of the prohibition, and if in his current state he is a rapist then he is a rapist. Perhaps with regard to a pedophile there is justification because of the harm to others.

  9. Or he should devote his head and most of it, or rather his entire being, to Torah, as the Rabbis have said (if he worked for 25 years, he can also work for 95 years)

  10. I think the reason the rabbis bring the Sabbath desecrators closer and not the LGBTQ+ is because they really think, like the rabbi, that it's a situation of rape and not of choice. But they're afraid to legitimize it because people will think they're giving it permission. They don't know what to do with this animal but hope that will change over time.

  11. I didn't understand what the third lane's position was.

    General statements of "We are committed to Halacha, but we are liberal but light...",
    But I didn't understand at all what was new.

    In addition, the argument that conservatives are not afraid of contact with just secular people who desecrate the Sabbath is inaccurate. It is true that there is tolerance towards secular people, but even with secular people, they are sometimes cautious about contact.

    And as for "you can invite a singer who violates Shabbat, but a gay singer is problematic," it's probably because homosexuality is seen as a moral flaw (a completely legitimate opinion) beyond the halakhic issue. There's really no moral problem with a singer who violates Shabbat.

  12. First, in my opinion, this is a very important article and I hope many will be exposed to it.
    Secondly, I have a question: How do we know that having sex with a man is included in the prohibitions of incest, which it says shall be killed and shall be transgressed against?
    And in fact, this is a general question: how do we know which incest prohibitions are included in the killing and not to be transgressed? Because, as far as I know, the Gemara does not specify.

  13. I think there is room to distinguish between a singer who is gay but doesn't make a big deal out of it, and a singer who advertises himself as such, and even composes songs for pride parades.
    This still doesn't mean he should be denied the right to perform, but the comparison to a singer who desecrates Shabbat seems to me to be a somewhat naive comparison...

    1. That is, there is a difference between a sinful singer and a singer who takes part in an industry that normalizes sins.

  14. Why do you assume that a gay man is a rapist?
    It seems improbable to me that God would command a person to refrain from a certain act and at the same time bring him into the world with an inability to overcome it. It seems simply absurd to me to assume that God would prohibit something in the prohibition of circumcision, and bring a person into the world with a tendency that cannot be overcome. It is clear to me that whatever is prohibited is due to lust and not due to a tendency that cannot be overcome.

    1. Just because he has no other choice, doesn't mean he's a compulsive person.
      This means that the price he must pay to maintain Halacha is very high.
      Who said the price was high enough to be considered rape?

      1. It is clear that having no other choice is not necessarily rape. Someone who has no choice but to lose ten cents is not considered rapist. But such a level of difficulty for a lifetime with no choice is strictly rape. Who said that being spanked for life is rape? And who said that being spanked for a lifetime is rape? And who said that if you are threatened with a gun, it is rape? What a reasonable person cannot stand is rape. That is all. There is an opinion and common sense and it is worth using them.

  15. Presenting gay people as rapists is very problematic, because all the prohibitions for which the urge is sexual, according to the 7th chapter, are rape. It is ridiculous to say that the Torah's commandments regarding incest and the like were stated to a person who does not desire these things, and if every person who has a sexual urge is called a rapist, there are no incest prohibitions. However, it is said that the prohibition was stated in a place where a person has no preference between the option of consecrating a woman and the option of coming to her with a prohibition, and the Torah tells him to consecrate a woman, and it is very strange that Torah prohibitions were not stated in place of urges. Certainly there is a situation of urge that will make a person a rapist or close to rape, but let's not refer to the concept of urges as a situation of rape, and therefore a person who declares himself that he does not have the obligation to try to deal with urges cannot be called a rapist, except that in this I agree with the Rabbi who did not detract from a Sabbath violator, but certainly not better than him. As the Rabbi presented it, a Sabbath violator also has urges, as the repentant ones who fight with all their might to keep the Sabbath will testify. And in the substance of the matter, in male intercourse there is the concept of abomination as the verse says. I do not know exactly what the Torah means by these words. It is a broad issue whether it is an abomination that the Torah wrote, that is, because of the prohibition or that this is the reason for the prohibition, but MM, as far as I know, abomination means distance, and in this sense, the prohibition of male intercourse is different from the prohibition of Shabbat, and in male intercourse there is indeed a matter of distance, either because of a Torah command or before it. For the law, it is necessary to understand whether the distance is carried out in fulfillment of the law of the Torah. On the matter or other matters, a note in passing

    1. These are people who have no other choice. What does this have to do with all the prohibitions on incest? If a man comes to his sister or another man's wife, he has options to have other marital relations. A homosexual has no option to have relations with permission.

  16. The fact that he has no other option for sexual relations does not mean that he must have sex. Again, there may be a specific urge that will cause him to be rapist, but his situation as a person who does not overcome his urges in the first place is not a situation of rape. It is a simple matter. And one more thing, what does this have to do with there being other prohibitions that are written about as abomination? The word abomination requires Talmud on its own. What does it matter if it is written in other places, and apparently it contains some content of a certain distance that belongs in the prohibition of sexual intercourse, not in the prohibition of Shabbat? I would like to hear your opinion on the matter of explaining the content of abomination, and not hearing that there are other places that need an explanation.

  17. Peace and blessings.
    I would be happy to point out that indeed, there is no distinction between Sabbath desecrators and people who have sex with men. And it seems that the answer is not substantive but educational. Sometimes you have to look at it from the perspective of an educator who knows the level of 14-year-old boys and girls: going to a performance by someone who desecrates the Sabbath will not make them 'like' Sabbath desecration, but going to a performance by someone who has sex with men will encourage them, and because they don't really understand the complexity, they will say, 'Wow, the Torah is bad, so we need to be secular,' etc. Therefore, in my opinion, it is indeed not worth inviting such people to performances that attract youth...

    1. Truly wonderful tendency. Why do you think seeing an artist desecrate the Sabbath doesn't normalize desecration of the Sabbath? On the contrary, it normalizes it much more, because it's an option for everyone, not just gays. And the fact is that today feelings toward desecrators of the Sabbath are completely numb, while the taboo for gays remains.

  18. Regarding sexual orientation, I do think it is more of an innate tendency. I am not convinced that it is completely irreversible. In my opinion, the claim that it is completely irreversible is a new religion that came to legalize the creep. In my opinion, it is more of a tendency in percentages.

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