“Philosophers Against God” – On Jeremy Fogel’s Book (Column 726)
With God’s help
Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.
A few days ago I received from my friend Jeremy Fogel a new booklet he published, whose Hebrew title is Philosophers Against God. He wrote that he would be happy to receive critiques for and against his arguments, so I decided to devote a column to it. Almost all of these matters have been discussed by me in the past, and therefore at least in some cases I will allow myself to be brief and refer to earlier sources in my writings instead of detailing everything here.
Deconversion
Jeremy states at the very beginning of the book that his goal is to lead the reader to deconversion. He then clarifies that he does not intend to claim that there is no God or to undermine anyone’s faith. His intention is only to raise questions and to shake religious dogmatism. Later he explains that dogmatism is the mother of all sin and all evil in the world, and therefore this philosophical discussion is important for our practical lives as well. According to him, all the evil in the world is done in the name of God by those who are sure they know what He wants of them and of all of us; if we undermine that dogmatism and leave God and belief in Him as a kind of question, renouncing answers to it, the world will be much better.
Already here I will note that I too see religious fundamentalism and dogmatism as folly that also leads to problematic results. In that sense I too would like to lead us all to questioning, and I even devoted a book to it, Truth and Unstable, as well as quite a bit of my writing in general. But this is more or less the only point on which I agree with Jeremy in this booklet.
Is religious dogmatism really the mother of all sin?
Jeremy assumes, like many others, that belief in God is the mother of all sin. But unfortunately he misses a very essential point here. In the sixth chapter of my book God Plays Dice I addressed a similar claim by Dawkins (in a talkback to the previous column, David noted that the source of this saying is Steven Weinberg), who wrote that in every group there are good people who behave well and bad people who behave badly, but only in religious groups are there good people who behave badly. I must say that although this is very annoying, there is something to it. But as I showed in my book there, there are quite a few logical and factual errors woven into Dawkins’ words.
Some of the greatest mass murderers of the twentieth century were secular and even atheists: from Stalin and his fellow communists (Lenin and Engels), to Pol Pot—no small butcher himself—and more. One can debate Hitler’s religiosity (Dawkins tries to conduct such a discussion, and his tendentiousness there reaches truly absurd heights), but it is irrelevant. It is completely clear that even if he was religious in some sense, he did not murder in the name of religion. His dogmatism was ideological, not religious. The principles of Nazism are not anchored in the New Testament or in Christian thought. In general, the Nazis were much closer to paganism, and in any case we are dealing with a thoroughly secular ideology, not a religion, even if some of its adherents were religious Christians. In addition, many terror organizations around the world are not connected to religion (the Red Brigades, the Japanese Red Army, Baader–Meinhof, Carlos the Jackal, and more and more—most of them lean communist).
Therefore the more accurate claim is that most evils in the world are caused by fundamentalism or dogmatism, but not necessarily religious dogmatism. In that same chapter I showed that Dawkins himself is a zealous fundamentalist, like many of his atheist colleagues. One indication is that he advances patently absurd arguments from within, and an intelligent person like him should not have done so had he thought about things in a balanced way. This is the place to clarify more precisely what fundamentalism means for our purposes.
The problem with fundamentalism: two kinds of doubt
The philosophical definition of fundamentalism for our purposes (this is my definition, not necessarily something accepted in the field) is the placing of some claim(s) beyond critical thought. A person or group that holds position X with absolute certainty and is not prepared to subject it to critical testing or to relinquish it under any circumstances, regardless of arguments raised against it, is fundamentalist.
In this sense, even Mother Teresa (I am speaking of her image as I perceive it; I do not know her herself) was a fundamentalist, since her clinging to the good was absolute and beyond any critique. Likewise, ISIS adherents are fundamentalists, and so are many Haredim and, to a lesser extent, religious people in general. So too with the Church of “Just Not Bibi” and the Church of “Only Bibi.” Note that this definition does not depend on the content of the position the fundamentalist holds, but only on his absolute adherence to it. Mother Teresa’s fundamentalism threatens no one and harms no one (though I tend to think that fundamentalism, regardless of its content, usually brings bad results), and still it is fundamentalism.
In my book Truth and Unstable I attacked fundamentalism, not because of its moral and social consequences but mainly because I believe it is wrong. Nothing can stand beyond critical thinking (including this very principle). Beyond that, I argued there that religious faith need not be fundamentalist. The antithesis to fundamentalism is not skepticism and the absence of beliefs and/or ideologies, but holding them in a non-dogmatic fashion. I, for example, definitely hold beliefs and ideologies, and I am also willing to fight for them and pay prices, yet at the same time I am willing to hear and consider counterarguments and, if necessary, I very much hope I will be willing to relinquish or change my position.
I explained there that this is the postmodern error. For them, the necessary antithesis to fundamentalism and dogmatism is absolute doubt. But this is a mistake. The antithesis to fundamentalism is the absence of certainty. But the absence of certainty is not doubt. I, for instance, believe in God—but certainly not with certainty. Does that sound to you equivalent to someone who is wholly uncertain about God’s existence?! Even our acquaintance Dawkins divides the faith–atheism scale into seven levels. I’ll list them from memory: absolute believer (with certainty), believer very likely, fairly believing, skeptical regarding belief, fairly atheist, atheist very likely, and absolute atheist. He presents himself as a six out of seven, though his forceful writing indicates he is quite close to level seven (as I wrote above, he is a fundamentalist).
The problem I see in fundamentalism is not its social harms and the cruel extremism that usually represents it in our consciousness. I see a philosophical problem in fundamentalism, and this exists even in Mother Teresa’s fundamentalism. Absolute faith in something is simply an error, before the question of whether it is harmful or not. The reason is that we have no possibility of reaching any conclusion with certainty. True, this error magnifies problems that exist within problematic contents. Cruel or immoral conceptions are problematic, but when someone holds them fundamentally the problem is greatly magnified. There are people with communist views who do not murder and do not support murder, and there are fundamentalist communists who did advocate murder. There are Muslims who do not murder and do not support murder, and there are fundamentalist Muslims who do. The primary problem is usually not the problematic content but the dogmatic grip on it.
As noted above, fundamentalism does not necessarily come from a religious source. I brought examples of horrific and extremely cruel dogmatism on the part of overtly secular groups. The conclusion is that evil and problematic outcomes stem from a problematic ideology, religious or not, and they are only magnified when those ideologies are held fundamentally, whether for religious reasons or otherwise. Therefore, instead of writing a book against God, Jeremy should have written a book against certainty and against fundamentalism in general, irrespective of God. Such a book should examine the relation between truth and certainty and point out that holding to the truth does not mean holding it with certainty. There one could also show that while God is not a necessary basis for fundamentalism, He is a necessary basis for truth (at least on the axiological plane). It would also be worth pointing out there that an assault on God is an assault on the very notion of truth, and although a fundamentalist world is an evil and mistaken world, I would not want to live in a bland, boring, meaningless world in which there is no truth and nothing to live for or even to fight for. Oops—I just remembered that there already is such a book: Truth and Unstable. 😊
In passing I will note that although philosophically God is the basis for truth and from that also for fundamentalism, practically, as we have seen, there are quite a few extreme and dangerous fundamentalists unconnected to Him. They are indeed philosophically mistaken (just as one who thinks there is binding morality without God is mistaken, as I showed in column 456—I’ll note that the debate referenced there was moderated by Jeremy Fogel), but that does not make them any less dangerous.
On questions and answers
Jeremy repeatedly writes in his book that questions are far more important, beautiful, and sacred than answers. Here too, in my view, he goes too far. I am very much in favor of questions, and I am unwilling to leave anything outside the realm of inquiry. But why exalt the question—and even more so the absence of answers—so fanatically and dogmatically? What is wrong with answers? Jeremy writes that questions are always better and wiser than answers. I do not know whence he draws this claim (incidentally, this very claim is not a question; it is quite categorical for someone who dislikes categorical answers), and I see little substance to it.
There are wonderful answers and weak answers, just as there are wonderful questions and weak questions. In my eyes, the willingness to ask is indeed very important—but not because questions are a lofty ideal and answers are submission to small-mindedness. Questions are important because they are the best means of arriving at more and more answers and not settling for the answers we have. Questions are a means to fight fundamentalism, but fighting it does not mean adopting a skeptical stance. Questions about dogmatic claims arise in order to seek alternative answers. For every question we should propose an answer, yet recognize that it is neither absolute nor certain. It is indeed important to reach answers to the best of our ability; it is just not right or desirable to hold them dogmatically and absolutely. As I wrote above: when fighting absolutes, the alternative is not necessarily skepticism and the absence of answers.
Synthetic maturity as an alternative to fundamentalism
In my books Two Carts and Truth and Unstable, I described a three-stage maturation process of a person and paralleled it to the three-stage maturation of our civilization as a whole:
- In the first stage, childhood, the child accepts what he is told as absolute truth. This is a dogmatic stage. If father or mother or the teacher says X, he accepts it as self-evident. In the development of our civilization this is the pagan stage, where dogmatic beliefs were taken for granted from the sages, magicians, or elders of the tribe.
- At some point comes adolescent rebellion, where the youth challenges the adults who explain things and says: Who says? Prove it! His presumption is that he is a rational being unwilling to accept things without proof. He views the adults as dogmatic creatures who make claims without proofs. In the development of our civilization one can see the beginning of adolescence in Greece. There philosophy and logic began to develop and take shape, expressing the fact that the Greeks ceased to accept dogmas as self-evident. Not for nothing does Jeremy sing praises to Socrates, who wandered and asked questions and thereby undermined the prevailing conventions (though he was executed for it).
Adolescence ends when the youth realizes that he has no way to reach certainty. Nothing has a proof, for every proof is based on premises, and premises, by virtue of being premises, have no proof. Here a fracture is formed: the youth who decided to be rational and to accept only proven and certain claims now sees that there are no such claims (save for logical tautologies—but that is not very interesting). He stands before a broken trough: his hope to formulate positions in a rational and certain way has been dashed. This is the point where adolescence ends and we reach the threshold of the third period: adulthood. So what do we do? How do we exit this state and become adults?
- To better understand, I will sharpen the problem the youth faces at the threshold of adulthood. He now holds two insights: (A) Only a certain claim is acceptable. (B) There are no certain claims. What can be the next step? There are three possibilities:
- Remain with both insights and become a skeptic. If only certain claims are acceptable and there are no certain claims, then no claims are acceptable. This is skeptical maturity.
- Adopt insight A and reject B. That is, remain with the conception that only certain claims are acceptable, but deny that we cannot reach certainty. True, by logical argument one cannot reach certainty (for every argument rests on premises)[1], but there are transcendent sources beyond thought that can grant us certainty. This is certainty based on dogmas above critical thinking. And this is of course fundamentalist maturity.
- Adopt insight B and reject A. That is, claim that not only certain claims are acceptable. One may adopt claims even if we have no certainty about them, as long as they are within the bounds of the reasonable. Common sense or intuition are the basic tools in this mode of maturity. This is what I called synthetic maturity (the term follows Kant, but I won’t go into it here).
In the development of our civilization, the stage at which we moved from adolescence to adulthood was roughly the mid-twentieth century. Logical positivism was the essence of the adolescent conception that championed certainty and was prepared to accept only proven claims (or the result of direct empirical observations) and well-defined concepts. That conception broke in the mid-twentieth century, and some attribute this to the world wars. For our purposes, this is the stage at which the world matured. Three streams of adults now arose: postmodernism is skeptical maturity; fundamentalism is the second type; and synthetic maturity is the third. These have been wrestling since the mid-twentieth century, with postmodernism unable to cope with fundamentalism because both conceptions agree that only certain claims are acceptable (the difference between them is only whether such claims exist). Therefore the postmodernist has nothing to say to the fundamentalist who presents “higher” sources of truth. No wonder postmodernism digests fundamentalism into itself (via various New Age phenomena). Thus again and again fundamentalist “truth” demands equal status as one of the narratives in the circle of differences in the postmodern world—and it indeed receives it (post-colonialism and attitudes toward Muslim immigration to Europe express this phenomenon). In recent years postmodernism and fundamentalism have practically fused symbiotically (see the postmodern circles worldwide that support Muslim fundamentalism against the West and, of course, against us in Israel).
From here you can understand that the only way to truly confront fundamentalism is the synthetic way, for it is willing to dispute the fundamentalist “truth” and not grant it equal status, even without certainty on its own path. If you want to confront ISIS, it is not right to tell them that they are as right as we are and at most defend ourselves with force in order to be spared. A real alternative must offer an alternative truth, not a postmodern vacuum. In the aforementioned books I also showed that the only basis for synthetics—that is, for uncertain truth—is… God, and therefore a war against Him is a war against life and against the world.
Note that we again encounter the same fallacy described above. The conception that the only way to present an alternative to fundamentalism is skepticism—the conception of skeptical maturity—leads to a colossal failure of the West. Therefore, as I wrote above, the more appropriate fight is not against God but against fundamentalism on the one hand and skepticism on the other. Note that, surprisingly, Jeremy Fogel and his fundamentalist counterparts stand on the same side of the barricade, and their conceptions are harmful in rather similar ways (for one builds the other). To attack fundamentalism, Jeremy chooses to present in opposition a skeptical stance that believes in questions without answers—that is, in doubt as a value. But as I noted, this only plays into its hands, and there is here a very basic philosophical fallacy. In the last sections we saw that same fallacy in the social sphere and in our real world, and it can be properly understood only by descending to its philosophical depth.
Up to here I dealt with the framework of the discussion, and this is actually my main point. I will now nevertheless enter into a critique of the book’s content itself, doing so according to the chapters of the book.
A. Saint David
The first chapter deals with David Hume, and Jeremy claims that with Hume’s winning arguments one can easily dismantle the accepted images of God and His desires. At the end of p. 20 Jeremy Fogel explains that Hume’s attack on faith has two heads, each directed against a different pillar of faith: (1) the possibility of inferring (the existence of) God from nature; (2) the possibility of knowing something about God from miracle stories in the scriptures.
I have dealt at length with both of these challenges in several places in the past, so I will not enter into great detail here. The first challenge attacks the physico-theological proof, what is called “the argument from design” or Paley’s “watchmaker” argument. The watchmaker argument says that if we see a watch somewhere we will not assume it arose by chance. Something so complex was certainly made by a maker (a watchmaker). If so, the universe—which is much more complex—was certainly made by some maker.
Jeremy claims that evolution refuted these arguments, which is of course a misunderstanding. In my book God Plays Dice, and later in the third dialogue of my book The First Being, I explained this argument at great length and why evolution does not touch it at all. In short: evolution offers an explanation for the emergence of life within the laws—that is, given the system of laws in our universe. But the argument from the laws wonders whence those laws themselves came. This has no scientific explanation and cannot have one. On p. 23 Jeremy himself raises a similar (though not identical) distinction when he writes that nowadays theological claims rely on physics rather than biology (because there, in his opinion, Darwin solved the problem). The question is how we got to the stage of biology at all—that is, who is responsible for the fine-tuning of the laws of physics. Against this he raises several hackneyed rejoinders (the anthropic principle, multiverses, what is so special about our world that it needs explanation?!). I will not go into them here since I explained in the aforementioned books why none of them hold water.
But all this is not about Hume, for these are modern debates (Darwin published his book in 1870, and Hume died almost a century earlier). From p. 28 Jeremy presents Hume’s rejoinders against the physico-theological argument. Essentially there are two main claims:
- The analogy between the universe and a watch is unfounded. A tiger is also a complex creature and no one asks who made it. A watch is an object that serves a purpose, and therefore it is clear someone made it.
This is a very strange claim. First, if I were to show a watch to a person from Africa who had never seen such a thing and does not know what it is for, would he not ask himself who assembled this odd and complex object? Second, why indeed not ask who made the tiger? I certainly wonder about that, and my answer is: God. Jeremy’s mistake is that he thinks these questions are based on experience, and they are not. They are based on logic and philosophy (indeed, to some extent even on mathematics). The probability that something complex will arise spontaneously is very small (this is essentially the second law of thermodynamics). This is not a result of experience but of calculation. Therefore this principle is true for tigers just as for watches. Hume was an empiricist and therefore fell into this error, but from a contemporary philosopher I would expect more. To be clear, I am not claiming this is a scientific thesis or that the second law of thermodynamics proves God’s existence. I am using it only to define complexity objectively and to clarify the argument that denies the possibility that complex things arise spontaneously.
- If every complex thing requires a maker, as the physico-theological argument assumes, and therefore there must be a God who created our universe—then who created God Himself?
Here there is a misunderstanding. There are only two possibilities: either there is an infinite regress of causes, or there is a beginning to the chain of causes. The first possibility is a fallacy (an infinite regress), which leads us to the second. The first link in the chain is called “God.” The question “who created God” has no answer and requires none. No one created Him. He exists without needing a prior cause (ancient philosophy described this, not very successfully, as “self-cause.” Likewise “God who created Himself,” in Jeremy’s phrasing, is absurd. God was never created). If God too needed a cause for His existence, we would be trapped in an infinite regress.
One may of course wonder whether the existence of such a link does not refute the premise that a complex thing needs a maker, and my answer is no. A complex thing of the kinds known to us in the world (which by nature do not exist eternally) requires a maker. Therefore the first link in the chain should be of a different kind—one that does not require an external cause for its existence. That is God.
On p. 31 Jeremy raises a third claim: even if there is such a God who created the universe, who says this is our religious God? And who says He is one? The answer is of course: no one. Philosophy can take us only to domains accessible to it. It can prove that the universe had a Creator, but the claim that He wants us to don tefillin or to eat the Eucharist is a claim not accessible to philosophy. Believers do not arrive at it by philosophical means either, but by revelation. Which brings us to the second pillar Hume challenges: the possibility of receiving a tradition about a miracle or a revelation.
Here I will not enter into this argument, since I dealt with it in great detail in columns 671–673 (written following a debate I had with Jeremy). To my (objective) judgment, I completely dismantled there Hume’s argument against miracles and tradition and showed it to be a collection of question-beggings that does not hold a drop of water. I sent those columns to Jeremy, but now I see that this somehow did not prevent him from enthusing over Hume’s argument as is customary among our atheist cousins (in those columns I described the superlatives this argument receives from them, unjustly). Hume’s arguments against the uniqueness of biblical traditions (p. 35 ff.) are likewise far from convincing, and I hope you will forgive me for not entering here. Even Jeremy’s own claim (I think Hume did not raise it) that tradition is based on a single book rather than on thousands of transmitters across generations is incorrect, and I explained that to him back then (I believe this was already discussed in our podcast). Tradition is transmitted orally by many thousands of people and is accompanied by the Torah scroll. The tradition is not based on the book; rather, the book’s reliability is based on it.
In general, in my book The First Being I present a complete picture of the chain of arguments that lead me to faith, and there I address all these claims in detail. Here I only noted the main points in his remarks.
B. Against God?
In this chapter Jeremy tries to clarify Hume’s motives and aims. His claim is that Hume did not come to undermine God’s existence but only the certainty we can have about His existence, and even if He exists we can have no certainty regarding what He wants of us. He also explains that Hume’s motivation was the danger inherent in religious fanaticism and certainty.
Note: Jeremy claims that Hume’s arguments show that we have no way to know with certainty that God exists (an epistemic claim), but that does not mean there is no God (an ontic claim). I fully agree. But from here Jeremy slips without noticing to the conclusion that one can know of God’s existence—just not with certainty. To my understanding this was not Hume’s view, nor does it follow from Jeremy’s arguments. I will explain now, and I hope Jeremy will forgive me if I disagree with him and with his admired lecturer, Edward Craig.
Hume was an empiricist, and as such he believed that we have no way to know anything about the world except through empirical observation; that is, the only source of information we can have about reality is observation. What is not observable we have no way to know (not even without certainty). Regarding it we must be in complete doubt. I remind you of what I explained above: lack of certainty is not doubt. To know something with high probability is knowledge without certainty, but I would not call it doubt. By contrast, the inability to know something means I doubt it—not merely that I lack certainty about it. Thus, for example, if Hume shows that the principle of causality and causal relations are not the result of observation, the conclusion for him is not that we have no certainty that there is causality, but that we have no way to know that there is causality, meaning we have no way to know it even without certainty. That is, for him the principle of causality is a mere subjective invention (which I strongly dispute). Admit there is a difference between that and saying the principle of causality is uncertain (a statement I accept).
From here you can also understand that even if Jeremy and Craig are right—that Hume’s motivation in undermining dogmatism was to erode religious dogmatism—he took a path too extreme. He showed that we have no way to know that there is a God, not merely that we cannot be certain about Him. Moreover, if his intention was only to erode dogmatism, there is no need for Hume’s extreme empiricism. There is no thesis in the universe that can be held with certainty, except for logical tautologies. For that one needs no argument—only minimal grasp of cognition and thought. Even the evidence of the senses, the most “absolute” fact for the empiricist, rests on the uncertain assumption that our senses reliably reflect reality (and do not merely generate hallucinations). That too is not a certain assumption. To oppose certainty, no complex arguments like Hume’s are required, which proves he did not intend only to erode believers’ dogmatism but to undermine God’s existence—or at least our ability to know of His existence. True, he did not prove that God does not exist, but he argued that we ought to be in doubt regarding Him (and not merely that our knowledge is uncertain).
I will add something else. In my opinion, a thinker’s motivation is irrelevant to the philosophical discussion. One must discuss his arguments on their merits, examine whether they are valid, and to what extent his conclusions are reasonable. This mixing—repeated throughout the book—bothers me greatly. If you have a claim, present arguments for it and against alternatives. Do not explain to me how harmful and ugly my position is; rather, show me that it is incorrect and explain why. Dubious conjectures about Hume’s motives do not contribute to the philosophical discussion, even if they add a pinch of topical salt and pepper. When the arguments do not hold water, we are left with the motives, and in effect this becomes preaching against dogmatism and fundamentalism instead of arguing against them.
I do indeed agree that dogmatism and fundamentalism—not necessarily religious—lead to ills. The way to fight them is to erode (by argument, not by preaching) certainty and dogmatism, but not to erode belief in God per se. What Jeremy and Hume try to do is to attack belief, not certainty about it. All the arguments there concern the very ability to know, not the degree of certainty of that knowledge.
C. The holy hum of doubt
In this chapter Jeremy turns to Socrates. The chapter’s main theme is the sanctity of doubt and questioning and disdain for answers. I already touched on this point above. Socrates is a model of one who challenges every assumption and seeks definitions for every concept. He made people think and define, and showed them that they do not truly understand concepts and claims that seem clear to them. Here too one may interpret doubt and questioning as the great ideal, but to me these are means. The goal is to define better and to find answers. True, for that one must adopt a stance that challenges every concept and insight—but those are means, not ends. What is the point of inquiry if it is not meant to make us wiser? To turn inquiry itself into a value is very odd. Perhaps we will not reach an answer—but that does not mean answers have no value. It only means we need not panic when we lack an answer; but that is not an ideal state.
Indeed, in such an approach we are very aware that all our understandings and conclusions are uncertain. Such an approach does lead to lack of certainty—but not necessarily to doubt in the sense described in the previous chapter. Therefore I very much connect to, and identify with, Socratic sophism. But this hymn to inquiry and challenge, which I fully share, does not dovetail with the trend of undermining our very ability to know anything and of deifying the question at the expense of answers. It does dovetail with the trend of showing that we cannot know anything with certainty. The blurring and lack of distinction between these two states—uncertainty and doubt—and in particular the overly smooth, unwitting transitions between them, are what troubled me throughout the book.
I will only note that the portrayal of Abraham our forefather as a dogmatic antithesis to the inquisitive, challenging Socrates is highly tendentious. True, Abraham heeded without challenge the command to bind his son, but as Jeremy himself notes, he also bargained with the Holy One, blessed be He, like a horse trader over the city of Sodom. Commentators have long explained the differences between these cases. It seems that despite his reservations, Jeremy again tacitly assumes that anyone who has a position—and in particular if he is willing to pay prices for it—is not a skeptic and is therefore dogmatic. But no: he indeed is not a skeptic, but not necessarily dogmatic either. He holds positions and values, only not with certainty. Lack of certainty does not mean lack of position and values, nor an unwillingness to pay prices for them. Again we see a confusion between lack of certainty and doubt and an ignoring of the middle state between dogmatism and skepticism.
Finally, I must recall that Socrates ended his life by giving his life for the sanctity of Athenian law. Is that not fundamentalist dogmatism, like that of Abraham our forefather? Why does this not bother Jeremy in his admiration for Socrates? Where was Socrates’ vaunted skepticism when he could have cut corners regarding the law, saved his life, and no less—continued to impart his great and edifying wisdom to the public? It seems he too was willing to pay prices for his ethical stance, though as Socrates we may assume he probably was not convinced it was true—just like Abraham our forefather.
D. Pyrrho’s enlightened skepticism
The fourth chapter is a paean to Pyrrhonian skepticism. In it Jeremy surprisingly gives credence to various mythical stories—say, about Kalanos’s prophecies regarding Alexander’s death that came true—and somewhat forgets his sacred skepticism toward similar stories on the Jewish–Christian side. Likewise with the (Talmudic) myth about a meeting between Alexander and the Jewish priests, which probably never happened (for Shimon the Righteous did not live in Alexander’s time). But the bottom line for our purposes is that the Pyrrhonians were skeptics. They did not hold that we cannot know anything with certainty (a trivial claim, as noted), but that we cannot know anything. Period. Does Jeremy’s booklet come to support this or to oppose dogmatism? This chapter brings to a peak the dissonance between what Jeremy declares (that he opposes dogmatism) and what he actually does (he opposes holding any claims at all). True, on p. 85 Jeremy adopts an interpretation according to which Pyrrho too obeyed common sense and merely relinquished certainty—but this is highly implausible. Even if he was a thoroughgoing skeptic, that does not mean he would not step aside for a speeding wagon; only the rationale he would give would be “that’s what I feel like doing,” not “that is the right thing to do.” Likewise, contemporary skeptics do not claim they will jump off a roof because they have no way of knowing whether it is less safe than walking to the sidewalk. Everyone acts by their feelings; skeptics just attribute it to feeling, while others attribute it to truth and falsehood (even if uncertain).
From p. 87 to the end of the chapter he discusses the problem of evil. It is a bit odd to devote two and a half pages of a small booklet to this issue, but he presents Sextus Empiricus’s argument as follows:
If the gods cared for all things, nothing bad or evil would exist in the universe. But people say that everything is full of evil. Therefore we should not say that the gods care for all. But if they care even for some things, why precisely these and not others… Either the gods both want to and can care for all, or they want to but cannot, or they can but do not want to, or they neither want to nor can.
Jeremy notes the expression “people say” and learns from it that the skeptical Empiricus suspends judgment even about whether evil exists at all. The decisiveness with which Jeremy speaks about Anne Frank’s fate and God’s share in it does not reflect similar skepticism.
As for Empiricus’s argument, Jeremy explains that if they cannot, then they are weak, and if they do not want to, then they are evil, and thus we are left in doubt whether gods exist at all (for if they have no effect, one cannot discern their existence and infer it from anything).
This is a sharp and elegant formulation of the problem of evil. But it contains quite a few holes. For example, who says it is problematic if they cannot? Perhaps the gods are not omnipotent? And even if they are omnipotent, who says it is even possible to create a world without evil? I, for one, have argued several times that I think it is impossible, and the burden of proof lies on the one who raises the challenge. Before challenging the gods for not solving the problem of evil, one must show that there is a solution that does not involve a logical contradiction (see, for example, column 547 and others). And if you are not even sure there is evil, I do not understand how you infer from this that there is no God or gods. If you are a skeptic, then in any case you doubt everything and need no arguments to do so. I do not see why it is preferable to doubt the existence of evil and from there deduce that there is doubt about God. Doubt the claim that God exists directly. It seems to me much less plausible than the claim that evil exists.
In short, after two and a half such profound pages, Jeremy brings Sextus Empiricus’s conclusion:
From here we can also infer that those who unequivocally claim that the gods exist are likely guilty of impiety; for if they claim that the gods are responsible for all things, they will claim that the gods cause evil; and if they say the gods are responsible only for some things or for none, they will be forced to say that the gods are weak or evil—statements that are clearly the speech of heretics.
At most, you have refuted the claim that the gods are omnipotent or absolutely good. That is indeed heresy according to conventional religious conceptions, but what has that to do with skepticism?! It is a conclusion like any other. In this case, as noted, it is a mistaken conclusion—but that is the most one can get from Sextus Empiricus’s arguments.
Jeremy’s conclusion again pulls the matter to his direction, unjustly:
Whoever claims to know with certainty the solution to the problem of evil limits his concept of God to a mistaken image of divinity. To approach God coarsely, to believe in Him coarsely, is to make God evil and weak—and that is heresy! Pyrrhonian teaching asks us to cast off belief in a God we can know with certainty. It does not tell us not to believe; it tells us not to believe with certain belief. For if we believe with certain belief, we are obliged to call God evil or weak and thus to sin in heresy. Therefore the believer who believes is the heretic. Whoever believes does not believe.
Here the tendentiousness leads Jeremy to a crude logical error. There is no connection between Empiricus’s argument and the question of certainty. He (wrongly) shows that if you believe in a God, that God is evil or weak—but this is true whether your belief is certain or not. If there is a God, then He is evil and weak. The doubt concerns at most whether there is a God. But on the assumption that He exists, He is necessarily evil or weak. Therefore Empiricus’s argument is not an argument against certainty but, at best, against the ability to know at all—that is, a skeptical argument.
But even that is not correct. If you pay attention, the conclusion of this argument is not skeptical at all, but perfectly certain: there cannot be a God, because if there is, He is necessarily evil or weak. Everything here speaks the language of necessity and certainty, for this is a conceptual–analytic analysis, not a typical philosophical argument. But Jeremy, as is his wont, insists on pulling even the thoroughgoing skeptic toward anti-dogmatism—and you can see again that this fallacy accompanies his entire booklet.
E. He who believes does not believe
The end of the previous chapter leads us to the final chapter. Here Jeremy writes the following:
I am not claiming here that every doubt is necessarily blessed. I suppose there are doubts with destructive potential, such as doubting a person’s character without reason, or doubting science in a way not meant to promote it. And perhaps excessive doubt in action can hinder the focus, speed, and determination that firefighters or surgeons, for example, need in heroic moments of saving lives. Perhaps too sweeping self-doubt does not allow for creativity, and perhaps it is impossible to love if one constantly doubts the sincerity of one’s beloved.
But even if not every doubt is blessed, doubt about theological certainty is not like any doubt. It is not just doubt. It is the holiest of holy doubts!…
Here a fallacy that was in the subtext throughout the book now comes to light. What does “blessed doubt” or “unblessed doubt” mean? Do we choose our doubts by whether they help or harm us? In what doubt benefits us we will doubt, and in what it does not—we will not? This is shabby pragmatism, and the last person I would expect to rely on it is a philosopher. It subordinates the “is” to the “ought” in the most unphilosophical way I can imagine. Either everything is in doubt, or it is not. If indeed all things are doubtful, then all are doubtful—whether helpful or harmful. And if it is in our hands, that means we are not truly skeptics but choose to doubt for agenda-driven reasons.
I will say more. The very determination of whether a given doubt is blessed or improper itself shows that we are not dealing with skepticism. For how will you determine the blessedness or otherwise of doubt? What certain criterion will you use to decide that doubt X is blessed and doubt Y is not? This implies that you have criteria by which you assess doubt, and those criteria themselves are apparently not in doubt.
This reminds me of a Dawkins argument about morality (around p. 316 of his The God Delusion), which I criticized in the last part of the first chapter of my book God Plays Dice. I will describe it briefly. He explains that all morality is nothing but an evolutionary construction, and adds that this construction is indeed blessed (that is, correct). Again, I do not understand what criterion you use to judge constructions and decide whether they are blessed or not. You determine that the moral construction is blessed because its outcome is moral—but morality itself is a construction. So whence your criterion?
Oddly, on p. 330 of his book Dawkins himself notes a similar fallacy, but for some reason he directs his arrows precisely at believers:
Even if it were true that we need God in order to be moral, that would surely not make God’s existence any more likely, only more desirable (many people do not notice the difference between the two).
He is absolutely right. What is strange is that this does not stop him from falling into the other side of the same fallacy when he speaks about evolutionary morality, where he explains that although evolution created morality, this creation is blessed (by what criterion?). The fact that evolution created morality gives it no validity, and certainly one cannot judge it by its own criteria.
I have nothing left but to end with Jeremy’s own words (pp. 92–93):
This kind of illusory confidence, by the way, is also dangerous when it settles in other layers of the human experience, not only the religious layer. In politics too it is dangerous to be certain that your position is always just, and in that field as well a bit of doubt promotes moderation and heals zealotry. In general, it is worth interrogating ourselves now and then about all our positions—being, if you like, auto-Socratic. Even avowed atheists would do well sometimes to doubt their stance… [here comes a very typical story about Ayer the atheist who dared to blaspheme holy atheism and got battered for it by members of the atheist church; such examples abound in our environs, of course]
I can only agree with every word of this passage.
In conclusion
I will conclude with a few words directed mainly to Jeremy, as an open letter. I already addressed at the beginning of the column the mistaken link you draw between fundamentalism and religious faith. Here, in conclusion, I will address your remarks on faith in God itself.
One can, of course, dispute this or that argument—yours or mine—and hold this or that position regarding God or atheism; but my feeling on reading the book was that these weighty subjects are handled rather dismissively. You do take care to say now and then that you are not blaspheming the concepts of truth but only certainty; yet as I showed here, throughout the book you in fact do the opposite (and repeatedly blur the distinction between these two levels). The book is replete with very categorical pronouncements about burying faith and the arguments that support it, while in practice no truly strong, fundamental arguments are presented to justify this. To ground so categorical (and dogmatic) a stance, I would expect a more serious treatment of the objections to your arguments—not to dismiss them with straw. It would have sufficed had you seriously and systematically addressed the arguments I raised in my books and various posts (over which we debated, and some of which I sent you).
I must say I have similar feelings when reading many atheist (deconversion) websites, as well as many shallow sites of religious outreach. Shallow treatment of arguments accompanied by categorical pronouncements. Incidentally, this is exactly the feeling that made—and makes—me write my long, meticulous, wearying books and posts, in which I try to deal to the best of my ability (I hope successfully) with all counter-arguments and rejoinders that arise, leaving no claims or arguments untreated. My goal is to give these subjects and arguments the respectful attention they deserve, for the subject is important and fundamental. You yourself try to persuade the reader that the subject is not mere detached philosophy but very significant for the conduct of our lives (as noted above, I am not sure I was convinced by your arguments: regarding fundamentalism yes, but regarding faith not necessarily). But at least on your own terms I would expect a more thorough and in-depth treatment of the arguments. It is not reasonable that a thin booklet like this—which, in addition to its limited scope, mostly does not deal with arguments at all but with hymns of praise to David Hume, Pyrrho, Sextus Empiricus, and Socrates—should suffice to ground a stance in deep disputes over which multitudes have labored for over a thousand years of systematic theology; thinkers and preachers, believers and atheists, have advanced arguments, refuted, contended, debated, and remained lying by the wayside without a clear knockout (each community, of course, convinced absolute justice is on its side). A booklet like this, like the sites I mentioned on both sides, may (or might) speak to the captive audience or to a very shallow audience on the other side. From a philosophical discussion I would expect more.
You thank many people for their assistance. I do not know almost any of them, but I suspect you did not receive serious feedback from them; otherwise the product should have been different—more balanced. I give my feedback here only after the book was published and therefore it comes out somewhat negative, and I ask your forgiveness. In such a situation the feedback can no longer fix the book that has already come out, so at least I try to balance the picture it presents. I am sure your intention is good and I know your philosophical abilities are excellent. But precisely because of this, and because you asked me for honest feedback (which I very much appreciate), and especially because I agree with the book’s fundamental aim and with the dangers of dogmatism—religious or otherwise—precisely for that reason I permit myself to write and publish this critique.
[1] In the history of philosophy there were several heroic attempts to overcome this obstacle and present valid arguments that prove some conclusion without premises (in Kant’s language, “ontological arguments”). Thus, for example, Anselm’s ontological proof of God’s existence (see a detailed analysis in the first dialogue of my book The First Being, and Gödel’s version in column 160), Descartes’s cogito (see it in column 363), logical determinism (see column 459), and more. Needless to say, all these arguments fail. As Kant already argued against Anselm, one cannot prove a factual claim on the basis of conceptual analysis without premises (though in my book The First Being I criticized this critique of Kant).
The first link in the column leads to an empty wiki entry.
Michael Jackson chewing popcorn at the cinema .jpg
On another matter, I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on the basis of the confidence in the precedence of tradition over the book, given the fact that there is evidence of communities that have almost been completely lost, and one break in the chain is enough to make the book the source of tradition, so why is it unlikely that in ancient times the Jews lost touch with tradition in such a way that the book was needed to reconnect them?
I didn't understand the argument about the lost communities. Anyway, our tradition says that it is passed down through tradition and the book only accompanies it. There are many possibles that could be raised.
What a beautiful column!!! Wow!!!
Throughout this column you attack Jeremy for logical failures, contradictions and incompetence and at the end you compliment him on his “excellent philosophical skills”. I have heard Jeremy several times and my impression is that there are many things in him that I appreciate - his love of wisdom, openness to criticism and honesty without posturing (for example his sincere apology after the huge scandal with Zvi Sukkot) but from a philosophical point of view he is a blown up balloon - he speaks beautifully, is charismatic, is witty and has a pronounced French accent! But he is deeply rooted in the sect of dogmatic atheists.
And why not simply argue that the difference between a religious person and a fundamentalist lies not in the certainty of belief itself, but in the attitude toward coercion? The religious person who is not a fundamentalist believes that religious belief has no value if it is forced upon a person; he believes that religion is intended for the free person, and therefore it must be accessible to choice and not to enforcement. Furthermore, he also understands that religion was given to humans – and therefore, it is practical, flexible, and can adapt to modernity and even be intertwined with general moral values. Precisely for this reason, he sees this as the depth of religion’s intention: not to force, but to guide in a humane manner.
I think there is a certain connection between certainty and coercion. This is because coercion in general is intended for social purposes - protecting society from harm. Secular coercion protects against opinions and actions that are harmful to material existence, and religious coercion protects against those that are harmful to religious existence. So the greater the certainty that a particular opinion or practice is harmful to existence (material or religious) - the greater the justification for protecting against it by coercion.
I didn't understand these comments. There is clearly a connection (though not a necessary one) between certainty and coercion. Who said otherwise?
The question of how to define fundamentalism is semantic. Why does it matter?
It seems that you have drawn a parallel between my response and that of "Moses".
My question is, how do you think the difference between a fundamentalist faith and a non-fundamentalist faith is rooted in the level of certainty?
Isn't it possible to have a certain faith that doesn't believe in forcing others? If so, then this is the most fundamental difference
Again, this is a semantic discussion. I wrote that it is possible to have a Vedic faith that does not believe in coercion. But in my opinion, as someone who is inclined to a philosophical temperament, coercion is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself (a.k.a. Mother Teresa). But that is of course debatable.
I am not arguing about semantics.
You claim that Mother Teresa is a fundamentalist, but in doing so you reveal that you have been deceived by a postmodern view that rejects absolute values. By defining belief in an absolute value as fundamentalism, and even comparing Hitler and Stalin to the same category, you reflect an approach that denies absolute values. I argue that the truth is not your view that “there is no absolute faith but reasonable,” but the liberal approach, which preceded postmodernism, which believes in absolute values but opposes their imposition. You are right that postmodernism and fundamentalism share a similar error – the view that it is impossible to both hold an absolute value and avoid imposing it. But you, too, according to your words, are not fundamentally different from the fundamentalist, except that you have not yet been convinced for certain of your belief.
Nathaniel,
I have difficulty understanding your argument. Liberalism also advocates coercion, but it limits it to protection against harm to society. If we recognize the seriousness of spiritual harm as harm to everything, it follows that liberals should also support religious coercion (insofar as it concerns harm to others and not just to the perpetrator).
Ostensibly, the reason liberals today oppose religious coercion stems from their secular perspective (which does not recognize spiritual harm) and not from liberalism itself.
No connection. Liberalism permits coercion only where there is harm to others, not where there is a deviation from an absolute value. The coercion of liberal law is intended to enable a mechanism that protects individual rights, not to protect any values.
Not accurate. Liberal countries do not allow incest between adults, for example. Until recently, homosexual relations were also prohibited. Animal cruelty issues also need to be discussed, whether it is an injury to others or an absolute value. But it is true that the trend is as you described.
There are no three types of adulthood. The only maturity is the one you call synthetic. The other two are simply getting stuck in the adolescence stage only thinking you've left it…
Fundamentalist maturity is simply a kind of return to the childhood stage (only with the intensity of the adolescence stage) and postmodern maturity is still the adolescence stage, only the last part of it – the one who understands that there is no such thing as certain truth but does not notice that he thinks (unconsciously) that this truth itself – the one that claims that there is no certain truth – is itself yes certain… This is of course Russell's paradox in another of his appearances and in a different guise. Therefore, postmodernism is a kind of fundamentalism.
This is really beautiful.
As someone who has read all your books, and still thinks that being a Detlef is the more reasonable option (and I have written about it with you several times), your writing is amazing, especially with the dogmatic feeling on the other side. It's just that I recognize the value of your arguments that it felt like there wasn't really a dialogue.
Waiting for someone to write a book titled “Mathematicians Who Are God”, for me God is a mathematician.
Marin Livio has fulfilled your wish:
https://www.booknet.co.il/%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9D-%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%95%D7%90-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%90%D7%99-55000001625
Do you think he didn't know the book? That's where he got the phrase from. The book appears on the shelves of every Steimatzky or Tzomet Bookstore
A very important column, although I have no hope that Jeremy and his friends will change their views or actions in any way.
Your conversations with Jeremy and the books and columns of yours that he must have read for some reason did not prevent the result in the form of the failed booklet, so why should this column do the job?
It is important for us, not for him and his friends.
***
Correction of a typo:
In the line “Do we choose our doubts *before* the question of whether they are helpful or harmful?”
The word “before” It is certainly a mistake and was typed instead of the (correct and appropriate) word “לפי”,
Unlike other possible spelling errors, the mistake here changes the meaning from end to end (since the meaning of the word “פירות” is completely opposite to the meaning of the word “לפי” in the sense of “ערי”),
Attention, website administrator.
Nice, nice. Corrected.
In the Bible
I read it. I enjoyed it.
I will ask the MIT to explain the words I believe in "complete" faith. As I understand it, this is faith without a shadow of a doubt. Isn't it?
Thank you for the articles that revive souls. May you have a good time with the Torah.
What is there to explain here? If this is the intention, then I do not believe in complete faith. But this is not necessarily the intention. Complete faith can also be without bias and with full commitment, and so on.
In the paragraph about atheist mass murderers, you forgot the greatest atheist mass murderer – Mao Zedong
No wonder.
In his podcast, ‘The Radical’ (already a red flag), he interviews Yoav Ronal, and there you can feel, amidst the chatter, perhaps from his praise of anarchism, radicalism, and revolutionism, that the man is a moderate Marxist.
Link to the episode:
Hello Mikhi,
The possibility that Jewish tradition reflects a truth that exists beyond human experience seems to me to have zero feasibility. In contrast, the possibility that the tradition itself was shaped by internal forces to serve group needs such as cohesion, mutual aid, and a sense of purpose seems to me to be close to certainty. I recognize that this position is a matter of personal judgment – but to me it is as clear as day. However, as a loyal reader I want to thank you for the excellent writing, the meticulous columns, and for presenting the other side of the coin in such an eloquent, profound, and thorough manner.
Thanks for the beautiful column
and Dathan Lehki
I never could understand how Hume could be an empiricist on the one hand, and challenge causality on the other?
Didn't he actually say that he knew nothing?
I wondered too. And my answer is that the appeal to causality also stems from ephemerism.
I don't remember paying for Michael Avraham Plus
Thank you very much Rabbi 🙂
I will never understand how the question of who caused greater bloodshed in the history of wars or tyrannies, atheists or believers, got woven into the debate about the existence or non-existence of God.
Chapter 5 brings
to fix, this chapter brings.
Regarding Alexander's meeting with Shimon, there is a good chronological fit in relation to the years of the Shemitah.
And now the explanation of the example: It does not appear that those Canaanites visited Alexander exactly on the same day that he passed between the conquest of Tyre and the conquest of Gaza (on the day he met with the High Priest), and certainly not during the war against Tyre or Gaza, but certainly during his sabbatical years in Egypt, where he founded Alexandria and lived for a few months on his return and rest.
Today we know this clearly from Greek historical sources (”Alexander of Macedon”, Hocha’ Hadar, Tel Aviv, p.
37) Because Alexander ascended from Egypt to the Syrian Euphrates at the end of the month of May in the year 773 BC, if we calculate according to the year of the last Shemitah, 7003-8, and add another 773 years that were before the Common Era, we get: 7778, a sum of 773 Shemitahs exactly, so that indeed the year 773 BC was a Shemitah year, the Canaanites, the “Africans,” who were called so in Israel after their origin, went down to Alexander the Great in Alexandria, seeing him accept the laws and customs of every country, and respect the heritage and religion of every place, as was especially emphasized in his events in Egypt. And there they failed in their mission. And so the context of the following story proves that the Egyptians discussed with Gebihah before Alexander, and of course it was on the same occasion, which proves that the discussion It was in Egypt, and now how could the sages know that in the month of May (beginning approximately in Nisan) of the year 773 when Alexander was in Egypt, the only year that fits this description in the legend here, the year of the Shemitah in Nisan, this event occurred? And if they had said that it happened in Cheshvan, or that it was the end of the seventh, or the eve of the seventh, or any other incorrect detail, we would not be able today, in light of our knowledge, to carry out this act, had it not been for the Spirit of God speaking through our sages, and they passed this legend down orally in its details for almost five hundred years from the time of Alexander until the time these things were written in the Talmud.
What bad result do you see in the fundamentalism that Mother Teresa had?
Do you mean a certain innocence that she had?
Thank you.
Moral fundamentalism is the sick evil of the left in Israel and around the world. Moral emotion leads, and they are unwilling to hear any counterargument. This is how identification with Hamas and the Muslim extremists is created, and it destroys the West. All of this is a result of emotional moral fundamentalism.
Indeed, but is moral fundamentalism the domain of emotion alone? Can't fundamentalism also be intellectual? After all, there is a rationality to morality, no matter how extreme. Thank you.
I didn't write that fundamentalism was created solely out of emotion.
You answer the most fundamental question this way:
The first link in the chain is a machine. Who created God? There is no answer “and no answer is required”.
This is exactly the question because I can't understand how the only thing, “God” doesn't need parents and all the other things do.
Why can't you say everything was – You call it infinite regression, why wouldn't there be a universe without a beginning and an end – It's no less difficult to grasp than God appearing to Moses at Sinai and even according to you telling him a story that suited his day and why didn't he appear when Galileo said and yet Noah didn't appear again and said you caught me? You're right, I'm correcting the old version. Elsewhere you mention the laws of thermodynamics that energy is not lost. I don't want to depend on science because it leads nowhere as far as God is concerned, but still if nothing is lost there then why infinite regression. I will stay in the field of scholasticism. You also mention the clock that necessarily has a watchmaker, which I assume has parents and he studied at a school for watchmakers. Again, who were God's parents and where did he learn his tricks and shenanigans?
I explained. It doesn't seem like you're reading what I'm writing. If you did read it and didn't understand or disagree and you want to discuss, please explain why you disagreed or what you don't understand.
Just a note. I didn't mention anywhere a thermodynamic law that energy is not lost. This is a law in physics in general, regardless of thermodynamics, and it's also irrelevant to our case. Maybe you mean the second law of thermodynamics, which I used to explain the objectivity of the concepts of complexity and uniqueness.
So before you decide whether or not to rely on science, it's recommended to understand what you're talking about.
Apologies, I may not have understood, so let's take it step by step for the sake of my understanding.
You say the complexity of the universe is the work of a divine watchmaker.
My problem, as I wrote, is that in this comparison a watchmaker is someone who has parents, meaning he was created.
The divine watchmaker was and always will be.
I'm trying to understand this contradiction.
Oops, are we having a similar discussion somewhere else? For some reason I can't find the answer I gave you here regarding the two options: infinite regression and initial link. Something went wrong for me here.
Okay, so I'm not completely confused. I see no reason to have the same discussion twice: https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9D-11/
Oops, I went back to your answer Jeremy and I'm pasting it here.
The question of who created God has no answer and no answer is needed. Nobody created him. He exists without the need for a prior cause.
With an answer like that I understand that you start with belief in God and build everything else around that.
Actually my previous question is irrelevant
Sorry.
Absolutely not. I conclude with belief in God, as this is the conclusion of the argument detailed there.
I am pasting this entire paragraph.
There is a misunderstanding here. There are only two possibilities: either there is an infinite chain of causes, or there is a beginning to the chain of causes. The first possibility is a fallacy (infinite regression), which brings us to the second. ****The first in the chain is called ‘God’. The question of who created God has no answer and no answer is required. No one created him. He exists without the need for a prior cause ****(In ancient philosophy this was unsuccessfully described as ”his own cause”. To the same extent, “God who created himself” is, in Jeremy's description, unfounded. God was never created.) If God also needed a cause for his existence, then we would be caught in an infinite regression.
Again, I may not understand the first sentence in the chain… without the need for a prior cause.
If this is a conclusion, what leads to it?
And also, this is also the conclusion of the watchmaker and the clock.
Maybe I didn't understand
I don't understand what's not clear. When you rule out one of two possibilities, the other remains. That's all.
Well, I'm focusing now on: infinite regression. This is what underlies your claim for the existence of God. That is, from a human perspective you are saying there must be a beginning.
This may be – I didn't think of it – true before James Webb, but it turns out that according to observations it is not at all clear that there was a big bang about which it could be said that this was the beginning. By the way, Webb was sent into space for exactly this purpose, namely to test a scientific theory, and this is the difference between science, philosophy, and religion.
In the first two, questions are asked, possibilities are raised, tested, and attempts are made to provide answers and perhaps for a while to prove them. In religion, it is exactly the opposite, there are only answers.
Well, I see I'm wasting my words and my time. You don't understand what you're talking about.
All the best.
Rabbi Michi Shalom, there is a very nice article on the “religious violence issue” and I think it dismantles at least half of Jeremy's claims.
https://hashiloach.org.il/the-religious-violence/
Hope you like it
First, he doesn't deal with this question at all. He's just trying to save Judaism from this accusation. Second, it's an incredibly biased text. Apologetics wrapped in cellophane. For example, with Muslims, he explains that the main thing is the source and not the deviations from it. And with us, what's important are the deviations and it doesn't matter that the source has incredibly violent aspects (in Christianity, violence is also a deviation from the source, but it's still a very violent religion in practice). In Islam, violence is an influence of Arab culture, but it doesn't matter. In practice, that's what came out. On the other hand, with Christians and Jews, the actual thing doesn't matter; what's important is the source. He obviously ignores the perceptions of two schools of thought in Islam (generally, Shiites believe in the oath, while Sunnis don't) and in Christianity (generally, Catholics believe in the oath and Protestants don't).
Similarly, with Jews, he explains that their number is tiny, when he excludes the non-religious. In Islam and Christianity, he does not do this.
The structure of the article resembles sweeping generalizations that lead to an aesthetic structure that is very attractive to people: Judaism is divided into two parts: the violent Toshva and the moderate Toshva. When Christianity takes Toshva and Islam takes Toshva. Great, everything works out as a kind of material. It's just that a lot of aspects are raped to make sure that this intellectual aesthetic is preserved. Overly sweeping and aesthetic theses always arouse my suspicion, and rightly so.
That is, if you failed to convince me, you are wasting your time…
Right..
So you ran away from the debate..
I accept that a person wants to believe. More than that, I greatly appreciate your new approach to interpreting today. Extremely brave.
I am Jewish and happy and proud of it. It is a great culture and what makes it so is the study and research and curiosity to the point that it has become genetics.
The Land of Israel is the only place.. in fact any country.. where we can develop our Judaism and therefore I welcome your way of integrating religious and non-religious people in this.
Shabbat Shalom.
I don't usually shy away from an argument, but an argument is supposed to be about arguments and to be conducted with each side addressing what the other is saying. That's not what's happening here.
I wanted to be sure of what I was saying or thinking so I went to check how the argument of infinite regression is explained and described. So here it is:
In philosophical contexts, infinite regression is often seen as a problem or paradox, especially when trying to explain the existence of something or the foundations of knowledge. For example:
* Cosmology: In the question of the “first cause” for the existence of the universe, a theory of infinite regression of causes (everything is caused by something else) is often considered insufficient, because it does not provide an explanation for the first cause itself. Many philosophers and theologians argue that there must be an uncaused first cause.
Since this is the basis of your rational argument for the existence of the Creator, then I get the following sentence from the search result: is often considered insufficient because it does not provide an explanation for the first cause itself.
This is also my argument, and if I'm not mistaken, that of Elam Gross and Jeremy Fogel.
I started this journey to examine my beliefs, sometimes I regret that I don't find.
Perhaps then I would ask more questions like you do, but that's another story.
I am now listening to a conversation between the three of you, Eilam Gross, Jeremy Poleg, and your honor.
You use more “scientific” “philosophical” terms, but the conversation is exactly the same as the conversation with me..
I'm using your example regarding skeptics (who of course don't jump off a building because they are doubtful about the danger compared to walking on a sidewalk) to try to understand your position, Rabbi Michi, do you only in a certain way think there is danger in this example, and if someone comes along who gives a good enough answer, you might no longer be sure how dangerous it is to jump off the roof of a building compared to walking on a sidewalk?
??
I didn't understand the question, nor its context.
"There can be nothing that stands beyond critical thinking (including this principle itself)."
Putting this principle up for criticism would be based on the coercion of assuming this principle itself to be true; so that it is not really possible to apply it. If the parentheses were not written for the glory of the recommendation – I would be happy for you to explain them.
As for the comment at the end – Jeremy, as he is known to his fans, is mainly concerned with instilling popular philosophy into the masses. This booklet is not intended to play in the philosophical arena, only to equip more people for whom philosophy is a hobby with arguments that Jeremy, for obvious political motives, is interested in promoting. The outrage over his ignoring the developments that each of the arguments has undergone is a little exaggerated.
The fact that Jeremy sees a blessing precisely in doubts aimed at theological certainty is not enough to anger, because it consciously expresses only his personal taste. Your scolding on this matter shows that Jeremy's loose style is foreign to you, which is quite surprising.
Not true. I can criticize this principle even if it is not necessary that everything is subject to criticism. It is enough for me that there are things that are subject to criticism.
His style is not foreign to me, and I do not understand what this has to do with my criticism.
Cheap apologetics. You can criticize this principle only if the state of affairs is such that there are things that are subject to criticism, but not necessarily all of them – only that such a state of affairs is quite similar to your definition of "fundamentalism" here. So to criticize the principle you have to be (almost) a fundamentalist – and good luck reconciling that with the rest of your words.
If his style were not foreign to you, you would probably offer the following translation of his words: "I am not here to claim that all doubts *I love*…
But even if not all doubt is *loved by me*, doubt in theological certainty is not like all doubt. It is not just any doubt. It is a doubt *loved of the beloved!*"
Such a text, even if it arouses your anger, will not justify criticism that he has "failed" in things.
Similarly, if your initial reaction to the book was one that perceived it as a book of philosophy for the masses, rather than as a book that renewed philosophical discussion on the subject - you probably wouldn't be annoyed by the "rather dismissive treatment" of this discussion.
Well, my policy here is not to censor rants until they become trolls. You're almost there.
Your Honor,
The Rabbi's important words regarding the need to subject faith and opinion to criticism are true in some ways. But there is a fundamental challenge: while the Rabbi, who is profound and well-founded, can stand firm in the face of doubters, what will the wise do?
The common man, who is not strong in the ways of inquiry, is subject to real danger from any common spirit. The power of a small doubter is liable to shake his world, for his entire structure is built on the foundations of innocence and simple faith and not on the power of stable inquiry.
Shouldn't we distinguish between the guidance befitting a wise man and the guidance required of the common people? Is there not a certain belief that is better not to expose to criticism, for the sake of its stability?
No. A person needs to form a position for themselves. What you are suggesting is that you decide for them.
Even someone born into a pagan home will be told that they are not allowed to question and challenge sacred tradition. Just because you were born somewhere doesn't mean that it is the right perception.
You are suggesting that you make decisions for them, just like the pagan's parents.
First of all, thank you for the fascinating column. I learned a lot from your writing.
I am aware that this may not be the appropriate place for such a discussion, but the topic was mentioned, so I will try:
The article claims that the existence of a “first link” that does not need explanation, allows us to settle the question of how a complex thing came into being. That is, every complex thing we know requires a cause, and therefore there must be a primary entity that does not need explanation – God.
But I wonder: does the very assumption that such a solution is “logical” not stem from a deep psychological and cultural bias that is rooted in us? If we assume for a moment a different world – in which there was no religious tradition and no history of belief in God, but only a developed scientific-critical approach – would it even occur to us to propose such an entity as a solution to the philosophical problem? If the world were reborn today without religious memory, but only with ordinary scientific understanding, would we conceive of the existence of God?
Perhaps what seems to us a “reasonable answer” stems mainly from the fact that this concept is already embedded in our cultural consciousness, and not from a real logical necessity??
Even if you are right, there are two possible interpretations: 1. Tradition creates bias. 2. Tradition opens us up to ideas that we would not have thought of on our own.
As such, I have written more than once about the significance of religious education and the correlation between those who have undergone it and a religious life. See columns 294, 630.
I read the two columns above.
I certainly agree that the possibility of God's existence cannot be ruled out simply because without tradition we would not assume so, for precisely the reason you mentioned, that tradition can open us to ideas that we would not have thought of on our own.
Indeed, it seems that this argument itself deserves to be tested in a similar way. If we were not influenced and conditioned culturally and psychologically by thousands of years of religion, would we even then understand that the argument for God's existence is a logical argument under the influence of an appropriate tradition, or would we see the influence of tradition as non-objective and as one that creates a bias.
Indeed, it is really a bit 'tricky', because if we were opened from tradition we may not even recognize the possibility of opening from it, but this question cannot be resolved without a proper logical test.
I am not just asking again and again, the issue really bothers me a lot. For many years I held a similar opinion that God is the logical answer to the question of the existence of the world, but one day I discovered that I no longer think so, and at that time I saw both possible answers as equally logical, while in my current heart that came shortly after I no longer saw the assumption of the existence of God as an answer. Because it is an invention and not an answer. Especially since there is a very reasonable chance that this invention was born in sin. Not that I see atheism as a wonderful answer to any question, but atheism is better than any faith whatsoever, in that it does not bother and does not even need to answer answers and its existence is well aligned with the existence of the question.
Thank you, Israel
It is very difficult to respond to an article of this type, which contains a galley of claims and arguments, the length of the response can be longer than the length of the article. But still, a few points that I drew:
1. One can agree that ideological fundamentalism is a sick evil, but it is funny and trying to present it as disconnected from the religious idea. Such fundamentalism exists in every religion, including Judaism, and it also appears in ”political religions” such as fascism or political communism. Wherever they try to say that there are things more important than basic individual rights of people, we have a problem. And in religion we have it too, it is whatabotism of the cheapest kind.
2. Answers are very important. But there seems to be intentional naivety here. The point is that it is so important to us that there should be an answer, that we prefer a bad and weak answer to no answer at all. The point is that if I have to choose between remaining in the position of “I don't have an answer yet” And between “I have a weak and bad answer”, it is better to stay in the first position, until I have a good answer.
3. Saying that Mother Teresa's fundamentalism does not harm anyone is based on pure ignorance. This is a woman who saw suffering as a gift from God. It was not important to her to lift people out of suffering and poverty, she only cared that they would continue to suffer as long as possible in order to dig into sins. Not only is she not problematic, she is a classic example of how religious fundamentalism causes human suffering.
4. There is a desire to create a straw man here, meaning that if I reject belief in God, then I am a postmodernist. Or if I am a skeptic, then I am a postmodernist. This is absolutely not the case. Postmodernism, with all its illnesses and errors that it creates, is not what makes us reject God. Lack of evidence does.
5. This idea of “I believe in God but not with certainty”, is a nice idea, but it doesn't really say anything. After all, basic skepticism says that we can't know anything for sure except the cogito and even that is in doubt. So from the beginning this ”gun” is on the table. The question is, is there sufficient evidence to believe from the beginning? And in this case, here we run into a wall of “we don't have good evidence, only logical failures”. Sorry, that's not enough.
6. Asking “Where did the laws of reality come from” is a classic wanted assumption, just as the question “Where is Elvis' car” assumes the existence of Elvis. We have no reason that the laws of reality should come from somewhere. We have exactly one reality that we know. We do not know a situation in which “there is no reality” (and before we write, the big bang model does not talk about creating reality out of nothing), we do not know other realities, we do not know any other option. You imagine a situation in which “the laws of reality could have been different” or “someone had to write them” and then you answer the question you posed. It is important to mention that we cannot even talk about probability here, again, we only have one reality. We have no evidence that there is any other option. Our imagination in ”we can imagine another reality” is not a reason to base an argument on it.
7. Regarding the watchmaker's argument, again, it is based on intuition and previous experience. Why did you choose ”a man from Africa”? How is he different from a person from ”North America”? Does his logic work differently? No. The truth is that the hidden assumption here is that the person from Africa only knows things that occur naturally or basic manipulation of things that occur naturally. On the other hand, a person from North America knows a lot of manipulations of something natural into something artificial. Therefore, the watch does not seem strange to him, he has previous experience with a watch. He knows why it exists, he knows that there are watch factories. And even if I show him an artificial product, he will be able to identify the manipulations that can be done with natural materials artificially. Which the person in Africa does not know. So yes, you are explicitly assuming prior experience. On the other hand, both the person in Africa and the person in America have prior experience with tigers. And they know that tigers come from other tigers. Therefore, he will not ask himself “Who assembled the tiger”, he has prior knowledge. For comparison, if I show you a sheep, you won't ask who assembled it, even though we have experience with artificially created sheep. In this case, our experience is the opposite.
Also, we will note the moving of the goalposts by saying that God created the tiger, as soon as it was demonstrated that the argument does not work if you change the clock to a tiger, you changed it to ”Yes God also created the tigers, but through evolution”. In other words, in this case, the entire argument falls apart, everything we encounter, God created. You have assumed the desired again, the conclusion is already in the argument itself. You continue to claim that it is “not based on experience”, but you do not demonstrate it in any way. You simply claim it. The only time I have encountered any defense of this issue is when Yom claimed that circumstantiality is not a product of experience, which is not only a terribly weak and inaccurate argument, it is certainly insufficient to counter the mountains of evidence we have, since it is experience.
I must also note the minutiae in the use of the word “spontaneous”, this word is very strange. Who thinks that things are created spontaneously? What does it mean? Things are created because things were created before them. There is no spontaneity or randomness here. The second law of thermodynamics is perpetuated here to be a deliberate deception, after all, you, as a person who studied physics, know that all that is needed for complexity to increase is a constant flow of energy into a system, which fortunately we have, we have a nuclear fusion reactor that bombards us with energy at any given moment.
8. We have already discussed who created God, let us just point out that I do not think there is any reason to think that the world was created, as far as I know, it has always been, always will be (again the big bang is not creation), it does not need a creator because it is everything. Reality is everything. And if you have a problem with this definition, check if these are not the qualities that you give to the God you believe in. That is, he can have these qualities but reality does not?
9. David Hume's honor is in his place. But he has also been dead for over 200 years, we have had other philosophical ideas since then, it bothers me that pragmatism has simply been forgotten by most practitioners in the field (is it a matter of European superiority? Or the fact that pragmatism simply makes most of these questions redundant, which will cause philosophy departments to stop receiving budgets?). Hume's understanding was limited, he lived in a world before Einstein and Darwin. Continuing to argue about his positions these days seems unnecessary to me, just as I will not defend Darwin's positions, after all, he was as wrong as he was right.
Again, I could sit down and write a text 3 times longer than everything written here, but that would be inconvenient.
You expect a column to do what Jeremy Fogel did not do in the book. That is, he does something overlapping and superficial, while in the response column I am supposed to address all the issues that may arise. My tendency is wonderful. All of these points have been dealt with extensively elsewhere by me and some of them in the column here as well, so I will address them briefly. I will only comment that your sections are numbered in a way that makes it unclear to me exactly what you are addressing.
1. To each his own sense of humor. Of course, if you present every fundamentalist as religious, then fundamentalism is a religious matter. This is exactly the fallacy of Dawkins, who, without getting confused, explained that religions are very dangerous and then went on to explain that all extremism, even that of a complete atheist, is religious. Well, then that is also what I am saying, just in different words.
I have already written about whatabautism here more than once. It is a magic word that aims to silence the other. If he makes a substantive argument against you, there is no problem. You simply explain to him that even if you are not okay, he should keep quiet and only excuse himself. You are immune to criticism. Nice. So usually, criticism and attabotist is completely relevant. In many cases, it simply shows that what you describe as wrong is perfectly fine, and the evidence is that others do the same.
2. I didn't understand what this passage refers to. What are the very important answers? It is worth noting if you are referring to something.
3. I wrote that I think Mother Teresa's fundamentalism is definitely offensive, and in Talkback I also detailed what. I only mentioned that it is more pleasant to live next to her than next to ISIS. But if you prefer them, who am I to stand in your way. But your accusations against her are truly fundamentalist. For some reason, you decided that she would perpetuate the suffering just so she would have something to deal with. Not that I am Mother Teresa's defender, and I even wrote that I refer to her only as an example. But just like that, do you have any basis for this outrageous accusation?
4. I don't remember saying that if you reject belief in God then you are necessarily postmodern. But it is true that if you define fundamentalism as you defined it above, then anyone who believes in something is a fundamentalist, and an atheist is a postmodernist anyway. But that is your definition, not mine.
5. The idea of “I believe in God but not with certainty” is indeed a nice idea. If you have something to comment on, I would love to hear it. I didn't see any relevant comments here. Unless you expected me to present here in a column organized evidence for the existence of God. Well, then no. I won't study quantum theory and social psychology here either.
6. The question “Where did the laws of reality come from” It is not really the assumption of the desired, certainly no more than any logical argument (since, as I have explained more than once, every valid logical argument assumes the desired. Its conclusion lies in its assumptions). The assumption that laws require a legislator stems from reason and not from experience. At least this is the rational default, and whoever claims otherwise has the burden of proof. Therefore, it is irrelevant that we have a single reality. The laws of logic are also supposed to apply to every reality of any kind.
It is clear that you are not familiar with modal logic, so you should read up on it. The whole thing explains the necessity of claims through conceivable worlds.
7. The watchmaker's argument is really not based on prior experience. I have explained this at length in several places. I have answered all these claims in detail. If you expected a comprehensive analysis of them here in the column, I am sorry to disappoint you. The same is true for the concept of spontaneity. When something acts without an operator, it is what is called spontaneous. And if there are laws that describe its operation, it makes no difference. It is still a spontaneous matter, unless the laws have a legislator.
You have stated emphatically that Hume's arguments are terribly weak, even though they are clearly true. But for some reason you do not feel the need to justify your strange statements. You only expect me to do so.
8. I have answered this question many times in the past, and this is not the place.
9. Again, statements without justification. It is difficult to discuss them in this way. I will only point out that it is obvious that you have no idea about Hume's philosophy. And statements that there are other philosophies and that 200 years have passed are not arguments. If you want to argue something against Hume's argument, do it respectfully and argue it and do not reject it ad hominem.
First of all, let's agree that Jeremy's approach in the book is indeed a bit “overlapping” if you want to call it that. I personally don't really connect with this approach, in my opinion the goal was to take familiar but “high”philosophical topics and try to strip them down. Tell you that this is my cup of tea? No. And I guess it's not yours either. But we're probably not the target audience.
My numbering, by the way, is for future reference (point 5 and so on).
1. In case it's not clear, I agree with you that the most essential problem is fundamentalism, the difference between us is that I don't think it's possible to separate fundamentalism from religion. In other words, not all fundamentalism is a result of religion, but all religion produces fundamentalism.
And we'll probably continue to disagree about whatabatism is. Saying “Hey look, he does it too” is not an excuse you would accept from your children, I see no reason to accept it in this type of discussion. The fact that someone else does it does not make it okay.
2. The intention was that even in the book it was possible to understand that he thinks that if you have a question and you have to choose between “I don't have an answer” and accepting a bad answer, it is better to stay with ”I don't know” than accepting a bad answer. It is difficult for people to say “I don't know” and therefore many times they prefer to accept an answer, even if it is bad, just to calm the urge to “solve the question”.
3. Regarding Mother Teresa, there is again whatabotism here. Yes, fundamentalism is bad. But of course, like everything, there are worse than others. It's like I think religions are dangerous to human progress, but there's no doubt, for example, that radical Islam is significantly more dangerous to global well-being than radical Judaism. As for my "blame" for Mother Teresa, I invite you to read Christopher Hitchens' book "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice," which isn't particularly long, about the same as Jeremy's book, and the facts are clear.
4. As I wrote, I don't agree in any way that if I'm an atheist, I'm a postmodernist, which is even illogical, since the word "atheist" predates postmodernism by thousands of years. Are you telling me that the ancient Greeks who gave us this word were postmodernists? I have a lot of criticism of postmodernism, I'm not sure that King is any less.
5. My point, in case I wasn't clear, is that the fact that you claim that you "have no certainty" is irrelevant, because there is no certainty about anything. Therefore, it's like adding a variable to a formula on both sides, the result remains the same. You didn't do anything, you didn't change anything in your perception. You're not convinced of certainty? Great. It doesn't give me any new information that I didn't know before, because even before that, basic skepticism teaches us that you can't know anything for sure.
I didn't expect evidence in this column, of course, the point is that there is no evidence in this column either. There are arguments, but evidence? No.
6. I don't think we need to discuss the fallacy of the requested assumption again (although I will mention that in our first discussion, you claimed that there is no such thing and in the second discussion you opened with this fallacy), that we are talking about logic, I can refer to countless references in the official literature to the fact that this is a well-known, formal and, some would say, the most common fallacy.
And here you are doing it again! “A law needs a legislator”. Because the assumption that this is a ”law” which in essence requires a legislator. After all, “the laws of nature” are not human laws, it's not like the law “Do not drive above 90 on Ayalon”. What we call “the laws of nature” are nothing more than our description of the way reality is managed. As soon as I say “the rules of reality”, suddenly I don't need a legislator here. So here's the desired assumption again, Leib.
And again, this assumption that ”the laws of logic should apply to all reality”, not only is it again not based on anything beyond your claim, it even assumes the possibility that an alternative exists, a possibility that has not been demonstrated. If we talk about modular logic, at no point has it been demonstrated that another reality is in the realm of the possible.
And for the outside reader, it is important to emphasize that modular logic is not talking about “possible physical worlds” but about a thought experiment in which I imagine my reality but with something different. But that's all it is: imagination. A thought experiment. This is pure logic, not synthetic, there is nothing said here about physical reality. That is, if you were trying to formulate a formal argument, the first claim would have to be “It is possible that our laws of reality could be different”. Then the obvious question would be: “Okay, on what basis did you determine that?”. Saying “I can imagine that”, does not constitute any basis in a synthetic argument, an argument that concerns reality.
7. We discussed this issue, face to face, the only thing that was presented was Hume's idea, that circumstantiality is not a product of observation, an idea that is neither connected to modern science nor justified in its own right, it is certainly not enough to cancel out all the evidence on the other side.
This definition of “spontaneous” is also, in my opinion, designed to play on both sides of the playing field. If an acorn falls in the forest and a tree grows from it, is this a “spontaneous” action? After all, it worked according to the rules of reality at every stage of the process, which is not the definition most people would use for spontaneous.
And I have also explained, as you like to say, in previous places: Yom bases his entire argument on Notional regularity and a world before Einstein. Einstein showed us that space-time is a thing with its own properties, therefore circumstantiality is only part of that set of properties. For anyone who reads the correspondence on which you base your argument, it is perfectly clear that Yom's description is simply incomplete, just as Newton's description was incomplete. And this does not in any way harm these two great minds, they are a product of their time and the knowledge that was available to them at that point. Just as Paley probably would not have formulated the watchmaker's argument if he had been born after Darwin's time.
9. You have accused me in the past of rejecting Yom ad hominem, which I do not and did not do. I have great respect for the man, but like many great men in the past, there are things he got right and things he didn't. I can give examples of things Einstein got wrong, or Galileo, Newton, Kepler, Pasteur, Darwin, and the list goes on. To say they were wrong in certain places does not in any way detract from the places where they were right, or diminish their contribution to science and philosophy.
As for my understanding of modern philosophy, allow me not to comment, out of respect.
Hello Aviv. I didn't notice that you were the author before.
If the numbering is for future reference, there are points that I didn't understand what they refer to in my words. It would have been appropriate to note this. Therefore, it seemed to me that you were referring to some sections from the past. Now to your claims here.
1. You don't think it's possible to separate and then immediately separate. So be it. It's also not true that every religion produces fundamentalism. Absolutely not. And even if every religion produces fundamentalism, it's not true that every religious person or group is fundamentalist. So this link is nonsense.
I wrote about Watabautism and I won't repeat the things here.
2. Again, you don't explain what you're referring to here. If you're referring to the physico-theological argument, you're wrong. There is no possibility of no answer. In a logical dilemma, there are only two options: either there is a creator for the world or there isn't. The argument is that the possibility that there is no creator leads to regression and therefore there is a creator. That's all. No answer is an empty evasion. There is no such option here. You can perhaps argue the argument I made against the second option, but in a yes-no question you cannot say that there is no answer.
4. I did not understand why you are repeating a claim that I explained is irrelevant to the discussion.
5. I did not intend to introduce anything new on the question of certainty. And I still say that I do not have certainty. So accusing me of acting from certainty is futile. And if you think this is trivial, then you also agree with my opinion that Jeremy's motivation does not exist.
6. I argue that the required assumption is not a fallacy. But when there is a banal required assumption, the argument loses its meaning. You can refer me to any literature you like. At most, you will find that they do not understand what they are talking about either. I said that ad hominem does not impress me. I want arguments, not quotes or hanging on some tree or another.
I did not assume anything. My argument is that every law needs a legislator. Even a non-human law. I don't understand why I have to repeat the same point again. The laws of nature describe the way nature behaves, and if it behaves according to fixed patterns, this means it is prescriptive. A law needs a legislator. The division between the laws of nature and the laws of a state is irrelevant.
The discussion about modal logic does not concern my argument. You said that there is only one reality and I asked you how you would explain modal logic that deals with other (imaginary) realities. When someone claims that a claim is necessary, the modal meaning is that it is true in every conceivable world. In your opinion, there is no point in talking about all other worlds because there is only one reality. When I say that the laws of nature could be different, that is exactly what I mean. There is no one in the universe who can dispute that, unless you see the laws of nature as a branch of mathematics. I don't think anyone sees it that way. For example, are you claiming that the speed of light or the gravitational constant are logically necessary? That is, is this the case in every conceivable possible world (modal meaning)? That is nonsense.
7. We are back to Hume again. Causality is in no way related to observations. It is a postulate of science and not its result. Hume showed this, and again says that the claim that there are many philosophers in the world is not a relevant argument. Please show where Hume is wrong.
I defined the concept of spontaneous for the sake of our discussion. There is no point in getting into dictionary questions.
9. I accused you of rejecting Hume ad hominem, because that is exactly what you did. You did not raise a single argument against him and only stated that he was wrong in claiming that there are many other philosophers and scientists. What do they say? How does this contradict what Hume claimed? You did not add a word. This is the dictionary definition of ad hominem.
* Indeed, the numbering is just for convenience, not beyond
1. I clarify: Social dogmatic thinking leads to fundamentalism. This does not require religion. But every religion is based on dogmatic thinking, so all religions ultimately lead to fundamentalism. Does this mean that all believers in those religions are fundamentalists? Of course not, I never claimed or wrote this. This is a complete straw man. And to drive the point home: There are about 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. Let's say that only 10 percent of them are extreme fundamentalists. That's still 170 million people. This is a significant number that is certainly capable of undermining social order, even though it is a “minority”.
2. It seems that we are talking above each other. If the question is “Is there a creator for the world?”, it is clear that the answer is dichotomous, yes or no. That is, these are the options, as with any “whether” question. The point is that regardless of the answer, I can certainly say “I don”t know what the answer is”. The basic position, by the way, on this question is no, a creator is a new additional variable, so the basic position is to reject the claim until sufficient evidence is provided. The point is that people don”t like to be in the ”don I have already answered you before that the fact that your inference causes regression shows a failure in inference, not that you are allowed to stop the regression arbitrarily and call it God, this is a logical error of the special pleading type, you formulated a rule and then broke it to avoid the inevitable error it creates. And here is a bad reason to leave the basic position of “no” and certainly not sufficient to say “knows”.
4. I agree that it is irrelevant, you simply claimed that every atheist is a postmodernist, in my opinion this is completely wrong.
5. As I mentioned, I do not accuse you of acting from certainty, because again this is irrelevant. To put it another way: the accusation is that religious fundamentalists (not necessarily you), act under a deep conviction (whether you call it certainty or not), which is not justified. That is, in order to carry out the actions they take, they need an extremely strong justification to reach such a level of persuasion, when such justification, not only does not exist, it cannot exist.
6. I'm not sure we have anything to discuss here. The required assumption is met when the conclusion of the argument is already hidden within the argument itself. The existing consensus in the field is clear. You claim that there is no such thing? Your right, does not prevent it. It simply seems unfair to me that you are shown to be making a mistake, the answer is “it is not a mistake, because I said so and all the experts in the field are wrong”.
“A law needs a legislator”, is the required assumption, because the word “law” by definition, requires a legislator. But the assumption is met because you call the way in which nature operates “laws”. That is, here again, I show where you assumed what you were supposed to demonstrate. That is, I only need to change the word from ”law” to ”rule” or “way of action” and suddenly the requirement for ”legislator” disappears. This is semantics, not logic. Conducting according to a fixed pattern means preaching? Why? How many realities do you know that, in your opinion, ours, which has a fixed pattern, requires explanation?
As I explained in a previous response, modular logic deals with imaginary realities. Therefore, there is no problem using it in pure logical arguments. But the physiotheological argument is not a pure logical argument, it is synthetic, it speaks about our reality. Therefore, our ability to “imagine” For the purpose of a thought experiment, it is not relevant in such a field of arguments, you need to show that another reality is indeed “possible”.
When you tell me “the laws of nature can be different”, as part of a thought experiment, I can flow with you until the end of the Sabbath. But as part of a synthetic argument? Of course not, I will demand that you show what you based your determination on. The fact that you are able to imagine something is not sufficient.
As far as I am concerned, the properties of the speed of light and gravity are simply what they are: properties of reality. Can I imagine another reality in which these properties are different? Of course. Does that mean that they could really be different? Absolutely not, an evidentiary foundation is required here.
7. You accuse me of returning to the day and a sentence after that you write that the day showed it. Here we have a fundamental disagreement. And I have explained more than once where the day is wrong. Circumstantiality is a property of space-time, it is not something that is not a product of circumstantiality. After all, at the end of the day, it is all a problem of induction. If the sun rose today, I cannot be sure that it will rise tomorrow. But the fact that I and no one else have a solution to the problem of induction does not mean that circumstantiality is not a product of experience. It simply does not follow.
9. I write explicitly where he is wrong, I explain it in the simplest way I can. Would you like me to give you specific quotes from his argument to show where he is wrong? After all, again, anyone who reads what he writes understands that everything is based on Newtonian mechanics. And this mechanics is not complete. Again, it is like making claims about what Darwin wrote about evolution, because he did not know that genes exist. Obviously, if he had known, he would have written differently.
So the claim that we can't observe "circumstantiality" is equivalent to the claim that we can observe "gravitation". True. But we can observe its effect on space-time. Just like circumstantiality.
1. We are repeating ourselves. You are logically wrong, as I explained.
2. I didn't understand what was new here. It's either yes or no. There is no don't know here. What people like or don't like is irrelevant when the answer "I don't know" is not on the agenda.
When there are two alternatives: one reaches an infinite regression and the other doesn't, that is itself evidence for the other. Everything else is just gibberish.
4. I'll go back to the carousel, which I really didn't claim. And even if I did claim it, I find it a bit strange that you make the argument that atheism existed long before postmodernism, for at least two reasons: And did you think I didn't know it? Even if it existed before, there is no logical problem in claiming that it is rooted in a postmodern concept.
6. There is no point in going back again. Of course, you are returning here to your favorite ad hominem (all the experts say so, without making a substantive argument).
As above. Nothing new has been added here that I haven't explained.
7. The words don't connect to me here. You write one thing and its opposite. It's not based on experience, but it's empirical. What am I supposed to do with such oxymorons?
9. There is not the slightest connection between Hume's argument and Newtonian mechanics. It's simply a complete lack of understanding.
By the way, the discussion is about “causality” and not about “circumstantiality”.
1. Not particularly. You made a claim. But you didn't show where I was wrong. Maybe a straw man, but not me.
2. There is the “answer” and there is “do I know the answer”. Our universe has an age. Today we know its approximate age. But 1000 years ago, we didn't. So just because there is an answer, doesn't mean we had a way to get to the answer. And Jeremy's whole argument is about what people like or don't like, so it's not clear how that's not at issue.
When you reach infinite recursion, it means you had an inference problem. It's equivalent to setting a math problem for a student and he arrives at an answer that is 1=1-.
Just because he arrives at an illogical answer, doesn't mean he is allowed to change numbers arbitrarily to get an answer that he does like. And that's exactly what's going on here.
4. I quote you: “And anyway an atheist is a postmodernist”. This is a fundamentally wrong claim. I responded to it. It is written above in the thread.
6. Ad hominem is “You are wrong because you are (insert this or that insult). In the worst case, you can accuse me of ad populum, an appeal to the majority. Or an appeal to an authority that is not an authority. But I do not appeal to an authority that is not an authority or commit an ad hominem fallacy. I appeal to the consensus in the field. You do not agree with the consensus. Your problem is with them, not with me.
7. Where is there a thing and its opposite here? Yom explicitly claims that circumstantiality is solely a product of experience, his criticism is that since it is solely a product of experience, it is a psychological inference and not a feature of reality, and therefore it is a “weak” connection And not “necessary”. The first part of it is true. The second part is false. And there are quite a few modern philosophers who show exactly the fallacy. Where exactly is there a thing and its opposite here?
9. Hume's arguments are not influenced by Newton? Wow, this is an absolutely amazing claim. It has no basis in reality, of course, since Hume's famous book “Treatise on Human Nature”, is deeply based in a way that is literally impossible to separate from Newtonian mechanics and philosophy. To claim that Hume's arguments are not based on Newton, in my opinion, is simply to sin against reality.
This is really an argument I did not expect to hear at this point.
I only want to respond to point 2.
In my opinion, what Miki is arguing is that since one of the two options leads to regression, the second option must necessarily be adopted. There is no problem with inference because it is only one of two options, which can be right or wrong. A problem with inference is when you start from something true and end up with something wrong. Here you start from something doubtful and end up with a contradiction. I think it is like proof by negation.
My comment is only about what I think is missing in your discussion. As a matter of fact, I cannot say that I understand the argument or the regression that you are reaching.
I will clarify one point again. Ad hominem in literal translation is a reference to the person and not to the substance of the matter. It is true that we usually talk about the person who is arguing, but I am talking about a reference to the person as opposed to a reference to the substance of the matter. That is, bringing names instead of arguments. There is no point in arguing about what the correct or accepted definition is, since I have explained exactly what I mean, so the terminology is not important.
Beyond that, it is very difficult for me to discuss this. There are quotes of mine that are taken out of context (such as: “an atheist is a postmodernist”. Read my words again and I assume you won't repeat them again), very basic misunderstandings in the apology (for example, regarding Hume's causality, he does not claim at all that the connection is ‘weak’, and the claim that it is psychological is completely different from the claim that it is weak. And in particular, a misunderstanding regarding its connection to Newton), and repetitions of the same thing over and over again even though I have already explained it. Therefore, I suggest that we end here.
It is important to note that if your argument says “Yom said” then there is no problem in saying “Yom was wrong”, this is not an ad hominem argument, you raised it from the beginning. After all, in our conversations, you also chose to say that ”Yom showed us that causality is not the product of experience”, even though this is the exact opposite of what he actually wrote. So it is clear that I will address his words. Every ad hominem argument must be based on “it is a mistake because the claimer is X”. Which I have never done. I explain why he is wrong and even explain why he was wrong.
I am sorry but I do not know in what context, the sentence “”and anyway an atheist is a postmodernist” was shown to be incorrect, the reader will read the words and see if I took anything out of context.
Regarding Yom, I read his words, I read a commentary on his words, I read a criticism of his words. I have the book in front of me. I will even quote a short passage:
It is therefore by EXPERIENCE only, that we can infer the existence of one object from that of another. The nature of experience is this. We remember to have had frequent instances of the existence of one species of objects; and also remember, that the individuals of another species of objects have always attended them, and have existed in a regular order of contiguity and succession with regard to them. Thus we remember, to have seen that species of object we call flame, and to have felt that species of sensation we call heat. We likewise call to mind their constant conjunction in all past instances. Without any further ceremony, we call the one cause and the other effect, and infer the existence of the one from that of the other. In all those instances, from which we learn the conjunction of particular causes and effects, both the causes and effects have been perceived by the senses, and are remembered. But in all cases, wherein we reason concerning them, there is only one perceived or remembered, and the other is supplied in conformity to our past experience.
And I could quote many more sentences if necessary. Yum thought that only through experience are we able to understand causality, the problem he presented and made difficult is ultimately the problem of induction. Which, depending on the interpretation, has types of solutions that are accepted in the philosophical community, or has no solution at all in any way and this is a natural situation just as there is no solution to difficult sophism. But this does not mean in any way that Yum has shown us that causality does not arise from experience, which is the exact opposite of what he actually writes.
Although I thought I had exhausted it, I will comment on the quote because it illustrates the crux of the problem.
Bringing this quote as an argument against me is a complete lack of understanding, because it says exactly what I said. I will explain it further.
In my series of articles 459-466 I expanded greatly on the matter. I showed there that the assertion that there is a causal relationship between event A and event B consists of three components: the logical (if A then B), the temporal (A before B), and the physical (A causes B). All three are needed to talk about causality. Yom denied the latter and claimed that causality cannot contain causation but only a logical-temporal relationship. Everything else is our psychological bias and not an argument about reality.
Yom was an empiricist, there is no dispute about that and I even wrote about it here. This is precisely why he claims that we have no way to determine the existence of a causal relationship between events (since there is no empirical way to distinguish causation. Only the logical and temporal relationship). And in any case, there is certainly no way to determine the existence of the principle of causality in general, meaning that everything must have a cause. It really does not come from experience. What you see in experience is only specific regularities, meaning a logical and temporal relationship between specific events. You have no way to determine the causation between them, and certainly you cannot determine that it will repeat itself, meaning that it is a general law. Not only the principle of causality but any inference regarding a general law of nature is speculation according to Hume (because what is not empirical according to Hume is not acceptable). In particular, one should remember Hume's objection to induction, which completely rules out the possibility of arriving at a general principle of causality and general laws of nature in general. As mentioned, what can be seen empirically is only a logical-temporal relationship without causation. Causation is an a priori matter that does not come from observation. So what to do about it?
Causality in the accepted view (which also includes the causation component) is a priori according to Hume, and precisely because of this he does not accept it. His claim is not that it is a weak connection, but that we have no way of determining that there is such a connection at all. As an empiricist, he does not accept principles that are not based on experience. For him, the causal relationship between events and the principle of causality in general are a logical-temporal relationship. Causation is our psychological bias.
But I do accept the principle of causality (like every reasonable person and every scientist I know). But at the same time, I must also accept that it is an a priori principle, precisely because of Hume's argument. But unlike him, I am not an empiricist (and in my opinion, no one is really an empiricist. There is no reasonable person in the world who really thinks that the principle of causality is just a psychological tendency and does not really exist in reality itself, that is, that in reality itself there is no causation between events), and therefore in my opinion there is definitely a principle of causality. But because of Hume's argument, the conclusion is that it is indeed a priori and does not stem from observation.
I do not know of any argument for this argument of his (that there is no way to derive a causal relationship and the principle of causality in general from observations), simply because he is clearly right. This has not the slightest connection with Newton's mechanics or anyone else's. It has nothing to do with physics and its findings. Any reasonable person understands that the principle of causality is not a product of observation. In this regard, it would be wrong and would not be helpful to bring here a list of all the philosophers of the universe throughout all generations.
As mentioned, I expanded on this in my series of articles on causality 459-466.
I really don't understand this response. You bother to tell me that I'm wrong and that I don't understand Hume, when what you write not only supports exactly what I wrote, but we have no argument about it. The differences between us are completely semantic, but for some reason you insist as if I'm wrong and you're right.
After all, I'm the one who wrote that Hume claimed that causality is the result of observation and experience, but we have no observation of the physical part and that he saw this as a “weak” connection. That is, that a logical-physical relationship is too weak to justify him as an empiricist without the physical part. I wrote that. And you wrote that I'm wrong and immediately repeated my words simply in a different formulation.
The difference between us is that I accept Hume's argument, but I disagree with him about the fact that we don't have ways to establish the physical connection as well. Now I may be a complete idiot, but strong counterarguments have already been presented by many better philosophers than me, whether it's Kant who claimed that this is a radical empiricist position, which even Hume doesn't believe in (this shouldn't surprise you, you're a rationalist, but not a radical, there's no reason to create a straw man for radical empiricism), or the work of John Stuart Mill, who shows that causality is necessary and a product of empirical observation and logical necessity, or the work of Nancy Cartwright, who also presents a pretty solid critique of Hume's naive view.
Or as I wrote to you about how causality can be considered like gravity, if we use Hume's same inference technique, on the principle of gravity, it seems that we don't really have sufficient empirical evidence for its existence. But we measure its effect on space-time, which is exactly the point why Hume needed Einstein.
And even if we ignore all of this, even if we agree with Hume completely, it still shows the exact opposite of your position: Hume thought that causality was a product of experience alone. The fact that David Hume specifically had no way to anchor causality in the physical world, not only does not constitute an argument against “experience” (because experience does not necessarily have to be empirical), it leaves us in the position of “we have no solution”. This does not mean that the alternative solution of “causation is not a product of experience” is correct. It does not follow. Now if you want to be a radical empiricist, then yes, that may not be enough for you. But on the same scale you can be a radical solipsist and think that all of reality is your invention. These are irrelevant positions, you are attacking a straw man who does not exist, just to knock him down and claim that you won.
Hello. You wrote in one of the comments, “There is no rational person in the world who really thinks that the principle of causality is just a psychological tendency and does not really exist in reality itself, meaning that in reality itself there is no causation between events.” If so, what is the definition of “causality” that we claim that a rational person in the world believes exists, beyond some emotion in the soul?
I didn't understand the question.
You seem to have assumed that there is intrinsic causality within the laws of nature. If so, what is the general definition of "causality" beyond describing a recurring pattern in empirical observation?
As I wrote, it caused. For details, I referred to my series of articles on causality.
David Hume would argue that a grimace is an empty concept, and that everything we call a grimace is merely an empirical pattern of two things that follow one another chronologically or simultaneously. Is it possible to define a “grimace” beyond Hume’s definition of an empirical pattern?
You mean, can it be measured? No. That's exactly what Yom is saying. Define? I defined.
Defining causality as "grima" is not a definition but a synonym.
Every definition is a synonym. The question is whether it clarifies the defined concept or not. In my opinion, it definitely does.
By the way, Hume, for example, thought that causality does not include causation. So it is not a synonym. Although he also admitted that the intuitive concept does include causation, and he opposed this. And this again proves that the claim that causality includes causation claims something (otherwise, what did he oppose?).
Did Yom deny causality, that is, claim that "causality does not exist," or did he simply claim that it is an empty concept?
Did Yom deny causality, that is, did he claim that "there is no causality," or did he simply claim that "causality" is an empty, meaningless concept?
I know what the experience is when we say “Grime”, as an emotion that we experience, a feeling of feeling an essential connection between 2 phenomena in reality. But it is nothing more than an emotion. And we identify this emotion with the word “Grime”. But this is not the essence of the concept, otherwise the claim would be that a grimma in reality is an emotion experienced in consciousness, and there is no grimma “as itself”
Denied. Because he was an empiricist. He also understood the concept well and denied it because of his empiricist position and not because of a content void. He was not a positivist.
You are confusing emotion with understanding or perception. The color red is also an emotion by your definition. Causing is a concept that I (and you) understand well. The bush is always an internal subjective act, but it is not an emotion. Alternatively, if that is what you call an emotion then the river still exists.
Can't empiricism claim that a concept is empty? Is a claim about an empty concept positivism? Berkeley was an empiricist and claimed that matter is an empty concept and did not deny it by claiming “there is no matter” otherwise he would be a solipsist and not an idealist
The difference is that it is possible to imagine an everyday empirical pattern without the emotion of "causing" that accompanies it in the mind. Whereas it is impossible to imagine a form without color. So color is an essential experience in reality without which reality cannot be described, while the emotion of "causing" is not, and reality can be described without it.
By the way, if Yom only denied causality but acknowledged the essence of the concept, and did not claim its emptiness. What is the difference between him and the Kalam method?
Cognitive necessity is irrelevant to the discussion. What is the connection between necessity and understanding? Okay, I've exhausted it.
Isn't the feeling of causation simply our habitual feeling all our lives that something B happens after something A, to the point that we feel a sense of strangeness about the claim that something B won't happen after A? If so, it is nothing more than a feeling of habit.
I will reiterate my question that may have been asked without clarifying it well: Regarding causality only *in the empirical reality of the senses*, did David Hume claim that causality in this case is empty (i.e. the concept of “sensory phenomenon A’ being the cause of sensory phenomenon B’ ” is an empty concept), or did he claim that it is indeed possible to speak of the concept of “causality between one sensory phenomenon and another” but in practice he denied it by claiming that it does not exist? My question deals only with the concept of causality between 2 sensory phenomena, and not with other causality.
If a definition is a word that is directly experienced in the mind, such as “saw the color blue” or “experienced joy” it is indeed illuminating.
But to say that ”causation” is “accident” is not illuminating anything. It is like claiming that ”rrrr” is “pppp”. In the meantime, defining causality as an accident has clarified nothing, and one day it will be argued that it is impossible to define it beyond an empirical pattern.
I've exhausted it. Either you're just insisting or you really don't understand what causation is (I find it very hard to believe). Either way, this is pretty childish positivism, and therefore the discussion is pointless.
The question is whether it is possible to define causality beyond a synonym. A real definition that will remove “causality” from an empty, meaningless concept. (Beyond some emotion in consciousness. Or from describing an everyday empirical pattern)