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Another Look at Greatness in Torah (Column 733)

With God’s help

Disclaimer: This post was translated from Hebrew using AI (ChatGPT 5 Thinking), so there may be inaccuracies or nuances lost. If something seems unclear, please refer to the Hebrew original or contact us for clarification.

Several times in the past, and most recently in column 722, I dealt with defining “greatness in Torah,” and to what extent many of those regarded in the Haredi public as “great Torah leaders” (gedolei Torah) can, in my view, be considered learned scholars but do not merit being adorned with the title “great Torah leaders.” I return to this painful subject because in recent days I came across several videos on a YouTube channel called in Hebrew, “Gedolei HaDor – Degel HaTorah Movement Channel.” A word of warning up front: this channel is for the strong-hearted only. It is an extremely difficult viewing experience (this is absolutely not written in irony; I still haven’t recovered from the shock).

It is a collection of quite a few videos of prominent rabbis from the Lithuanian (Litvish) Haredi community, gathered in one place to present the most distilled picture of the Haredi outlook as articulated by that camp’s leading Torah figures. The videos I saw there present a genuine horror show, combining malice, stupidity, and unimaginable detachment. I have heard such pearls in the past from Haredi rabbis—some even leading figures—but here there is a distilled concentration that constitutes an unusual and unique phenomenon and therefore deserves attention on its own.

These videos were chosen to present things straight from the horse’s mouth: not secondhand, not rumors, not slips of the tongue, not from political operatives or journalists, but directly from the mouths of the so-called greats of the generation. This is deliberate, organized Haredi public advocacy whose editors presumably selected the very best for the sake of the campaign’s success. The mix of elements I noted above stirred extremely harsh feelings in me. If these are considered great Torah scholars, then an average middle-schooler is Moses himself. And if there are hundreds of thousands of Jews—some outstanding Torah scholars among them—who regard this set of people as the greats of Torah, I completely lose faith in everything I’ve been told about the greatness of anyone. Who knows whether the Chafetz Chaim, R. Akiva Eiger, Maimonides, Rav Ashi, Rabbeinu HaKadosh, R. Akiva, Moses our teacher, Abraham our forefather, and all the figures on whom we were educated were in fact paragons as we were told? Perhaps they, too, were leaders of the “Degel HaTorah movement” of their time, and the superlatives spoken about them bore no relation to the vacuum within them and what comes out of their mouths? These rabbis too are presented to us here as ministering angels, every word of theirs the living word of God. Watching parts of this horror show is a tried-and-true prescription for loss of faith (and again, I write this in complete seriousness).

Another point I couldn’t figure out is: to whom is this channel addressed? As is well known, members of the in-group are forbidden to watch YouTube (though perhaps there is already a “kosher” YouTube?). It seems intended for the non-Haredi public. That is, this is the presentation chosen to express the essence of greatness in Torah and the light of faith before the general public—to magnify and sanctify God’s name. This is yet another angle that demonstrates their lack of understanding and detachment from reality. They apparently think these things are supposed to look good, persuasive, and impressive in the eyes of the broader public (see below the superlatives accompanying the videos). Is this real?! I pinch myself and can’t believe it.

In recent days, in the Q&A, someone quoted an instruction from his father that Haredim should not be counted for a minyan, due to their detachment from the people of Israel at large (see there for actual halachic arguments). Let’s leave the generalization aside for a moment and focus on the Haredim of the mainstream—those who truly and sincerely believe, or at least declare that they believe, in the malicious and detached nonsense labeled there as “the pure outlook.” At least with respect to them, I think this is an argument that indeed has real substance. He spoke of separation in the sense of kashrut certifications and the like, but I believe the separation displayed in these videos is far more substantive.

It is worth citing here Maimonides, Laws of Repentance 3:11:

“One who separates himself from the ways of the community—even if he commits no sins—rather, he separates from the congregation of Israel, does not perform mitzvot together with them, does not share in their troubles, and does not fast in their fasts, but goes on his way as one of the nations of the world, as if he is not of them—has no share in the World to Come.”

(Yes, I know: the point there is “separating from the public,” not about “the world” per se.) In Laws of Mourning 1:10, Maimonides speaks of one who separates from the community in the sense of casting off the yoke of mitzvot (that exists here too, but it does not distinguish Haredim from secular Jews). Yet here it is clear that this is not his intent. Maimonides here speaks of separating from the public in the sense of not sharing their troubles and not joining their fasts, proceeding complacently as if one were a gentile. When the public is in distress, he lives his life with utter indifference (think of a smug Goldknopf type). Someone who carries on as usual and marches in the streets to assert his right to evade service, desecrate God’s name, and live off a dwindling public purse—while others are killed for him and support him, groaning under the security and economic burden—so that he can protest against them and defame them to maximum effect. This Maimonides is an encyclopedic description of current Haredi conduct.

I did write in my response there that in my opinion most Haredim are “captured children” (tinokot shenishbu), and therefore their judgment should be lenient. On the other hand, their captors certainly should not be counted for a minyan, for they are wicked villains. But it’s unclear who the captors are! It is evident that many of their own rabbis are also “captured children” (judging also by their level of argumentation; see below). I have written in the past that Haredim are captive to themselves—a captivity very difficult to escape—and therefore I do not know upon whom, if anyone, this ruling can be applied.

The harsh things I have written thus far require evidence. I shall not repeat points relating to the draft obligation and the foolish arguments invoked to justify evasion. I have already dealt with all that. Nor will I touch here on the ridiculous conceptions and hypocritical declarations about who and what sustains the universe, and whether the army is suitable for Haredim or not. These are general “facts” and metaphysical declarations that are difficult to test rationally. I won’t even repeat why, even if all those arguments were correct, they would not exempt anyone from conscription. Nor will I venture into the deranged assumption that only Haredi Torah study saves and sustains us all. Apparently, those who study and enlist do not protect us (and therefore, if the learners devote two or three years to the army and then return to their studies, this will allegedly destroy the state). I also won’t address arguments regarding those who do not learn; they too, of course, “sustain the state” by not enlisting. I have discussed all that before.

Here I want to focus mainly on the arguments, since logic is easier to critique and to subject to rational scrutiny. To that end I chose three sample videos (and one side example) so that you can get a sense of the quality of the arguments and the arguers. I remind again: the speakers are the heads of the most central Lithuanian Haredi yeshivot (I’ve written more than once that leadership of the Lithuanian public is usually given to heads of yeshivot, and I’ve explained the problems in that; here you can see it with your own eyes). These videos were chosen at random (what I happened to hear lately). The channel is full of additional pearls; simply reach out your hand and pick.

About the framing: the moderator and his role

I chose to begin with a video dealing with a relatively neutral question: entering the workforce. The speaker is Rabbi Moshe Hillel Hirsch, the current leader of Degel HaTorah—that is, by all accounts a very central Haredi leader. It is worth noting that he’s from abroad, so you might expect his words to be a bit more sane and balanced than is common among those considered the greats of the Holy Land. But first I cannot ignore the moderator’s role and the framing of these videos.

Most of these videos open with a moderator. For those unfamiliar, you must understand his role. It is a bit like moderators at academic conferences, but here on steroids. His job is to present the speaker as an angel of the Lord of Hosts, whose words are like burning coals straight from the Divine, against whom no mortal may dissent. His role is to “set up” the “gadol” (great one) and to wrap the person and his words in an aura of sanctity. Essentially, it’s a preface of fire and smoke before the giving of the Torah.

To get a feel for it, look at the title and descriptions beneath this video, also of R. M. H. Hirsch. The superlatives are utterly detached, especially in light of the content. The title is “The Gadol HaDor, Maran HaGaR”M H. Hirsch, in a brilliant insight.” At the bottom of the video, the following description appears:

“The great mystery of the yeshiva world: Why do ‘prodigies’ fall while others flourish? In a brilliant, sharp, and clear insight, the leader of the generation, Maran Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Moshe Hillel Hirsch, shlita, deciphers the root difference between eternal success in Torah and decline after the yeshiva years. The words were said in response to the moderator’s question at the mighty event—the Bnei HaYeshivot Conference (5785), with the participation of the Council of Torah Sages, great heads of yeshivot, and tens of thousands of bnei Torah. Among those present: Rabbi Yitzchak Azrahī, Rabbi Tzvi Danziger, Rabbi David Cohen, Rabbi Aryeh Levi, Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Kook, Rabbi Eliezer Yehuda Finkel, Rabbi Yehoshua Eichenstein, Rabbi Daniel Arenfreund, Rabbi Chaim Peretz Berman, Rabbi Shimon Galai, Rabbi Rafael Gefen, Rabbi Itamar Garboz, Rabbi Daniel Wolfson, Rabbi Avraham Moshe Ziskind, Rabbi Hezekiah Mishkovsky, Rabbi Yigal Rosen, and Rabbi Bunim Schreiber. In his golden answer, Maran reveals the two paths… Watch now the full response and receive the key to securing your spiritual future and eternal edifice in Torah.”

Note that the entire Lithuanian rabbinic leadership is seated there, and the colossal genius, the Gadol HaDor, at a mighty event, offers a genius innovation before all Israel, solving the most mysterious riddle in the yeshiva world. Needless to say, anyone who hears his words receives the key to securing his spiritual future and an eternal edifice in Torah. I warn you that when you listen to the content of the video you are in for a disappointment. The “mystery” turns out to be a cute question anyone might raise, and there are far greater ones. And the answer you hear is banal and superficial, entirely predictable, very partial, unexamined—mere gut feeling. Of course there is something to it, but any child in kindergarten asked this question would give a similar answer. But I won’t go into that specific video. Now we move from the framing to the three videos I wanted to discuss.

First video: R. M. H. Hirsch on going to work: the moderator and his role

In this video, the moderator opens with a simple premise (part of the “pure outlook”): a yeshiva student finishing a “large yeshiva” is supposed to continue in kollel for decades (ten years is for the weak). I remind you that in Haredi education, all educational institutions are “large yeshivot.” There is nothing else. In other words, the simple assumption is that every graduate of Haredi education—every Haredi person—is to sit in kollel for years and God forbid not go out to work. This with no distinction as to suitability, numbers and proportions of learners, livelihood issues, the question of who will support this parasitic world, etc. “The concept of work is outside any discussion,” the moderator intones in his golden tongue. He adds that “kosher daughters of Israel—99% of them—are not willing even to meet a boy who goes out to work.” I assume that the dozens of percent of Haredim reported to us as working (whenever they’re accused of not working) are all married to that 1% of girls who do agree to meet such “criminals.” To this small man, the matter is puzzling. It might be acceptable to permit annulling Rabbeinu Gershom’s ban (on polygamy) to preserve the purity of the outlook and allow a man to marry several wives. But where did our rabbis find a waiver for the prohibition of a married woman such that one woman is married to several husbands? This is a bold halachic innovation by the adherents of the “pure outlook” (or perhaps a great miracle occurred—six husbands in a single womb). But perhaps it’s just me; after all, going out to work is, as is well known, a matter of “be killed and do not transgress,” and perhaps it overrides the prohibition of a married woman.

All this, of course, is entirely obvious and needs no elaboration. And Rabbi Hirsch, sitting there hearing this collection of foolish nonsense, does not open his holy mouth with even a single comment to that clanging gibberish. But now our moderator raises an enormous difficulty: why is it not like this abroad? The “seraphim” there (and remember, R. Hirsch himself is from abroad) do permit mortals to go out to work (heaven forfend). The moderator notes that abroad it was customary throughout history (no less!—apparently Volozhin was founded in Aram Naharaim in the third millennium BCE—or on day zero of Creation) that after yeshiva one goes to work. And the question: how is that possible? Moreover, the matter becomes sharper in light of the decrees and the millstone of livelihood that the Zionists (the wicked) impose upon our excellent boys. He presumably means the “decrees” whereby the budget granted to each Haredi family that does not work (and whose daughters won’t even meet someone who works) is increased by only a few thousand shekels and not more. Indeed, they have placed over them a king whose decrees are as harsh as Haman’s (the Attorney General and the High Court). Truly, this riddle is second only to the previous greatest of all riddles. But fear not: R. M. H. Hirsch cracks this one as well.

I hope that merely raising the initial notion that a struggling yeshiva boy might suffice with ten years in kollel and go to work—even though it will immediately be rejected out of hand—won’t corrupt the young flock watching this video at the mighty event (oops, YouTube is forbidden, so all is well).

Rabbi Hirsch prefaces by saying that he has explained this many times to people abroad who asked him this question. In other words, don’t think he was caught off guard and couldn’t find an answer, so he pulled something out of his sleeve. Not at all! This is a well-formulated doctrine for many years, and it has apparently withstood all the intellectual challenges raised by listeners in the past. That is, the answer we are about to hear is the pinnacle of a long intellectual process—the fruit of a lengthy intellectual “evolution.” You are surely biting your nails to hear what Maran answered. Listen now to the answer received straight from on high—and let your soul live.

“The Land of Israel is a holy place, and a holy place has different laws and obligations from the Holy One, blessed be He,” opens Rabbi Hirsch. And his proof is straightforward. From time immemorial, Jews ascended to the Land from around the world and made a living through various kollelim (i.e., fundraising abroad). All the problems that arise today, he says, exist only because of excessive focus on materialism, heaven forfend. Instead of continuing to live off charity as they always did (since the third millennium BCE) and as befits all residents of the Land, people seek comfortable lives—criminals that they are. And why do boys want to leave (the yeshiva and kollel, to go work)? You’ll be surprised: it’s not because they don’t want to learn, but only because of the pull toward materialism. Therefore it’s important to internalize that everything is only Torah and to increase our disdain for this world (see column 693 on defining Harediness as “citizens of the World to Come”).

There are so many absurdities here that it will be hard to address them all. I’ll start by noting that R. Yohanan the sandal-maker, R. Yitzhak the blacksmith, R. Yehoshua (who was a charcoal-burner), and their colleagues had not heard of the Holy One’s unique demands of the Land’s residents. They did not know that in the Land of Israel, by virtue of its holiness, one must only learn and not work, heaven forfend. The Hatam Sofer also hadn’t heard of this principle when he wrote that working the land in the Land of Israel is akin to learning and performing the Torah. All the Torah commentators who speak of the transition from the wilderness to the Land—requiring us to cease being eaters of manna and begin to work the land and connect to this world—also did not know of this principle. In fact, the Torah itself, when imposing land-dependent commandments, had no knowledge of it. Or perhaps it spoke only to gentiles living here (resident aliens, of course), because the Jews in the Land of Israel—none of them is supposed to work in the field or anywhere else. And what of King David, who went to pasture sheep here, in the King’s palace in the Land of Israel? Is he normal?! An ignoramus—better he should stick to murmuring Psalms and not dare give a general shiur.

According to his thinking, we should be an entire country of righteous people sustained by international schnorring, with none of us working. What about the categorical imperative—i.e., that the behavior cannot be universalized? It is impossible to maintain an entire state whose citizens do not work. But leave aside the categorical imperative he surely never heard of. What will happen in messianic times when all Jews ascend to the Land and lose their license to work for a living—whom will we schnorr from then? Oh right, from the nations (and the verse will be fulfilled in us: “Strangers shall be your shepherds”).

And what about the duty to teach one’s son a trade? The matter of a trade appears in dozens of rabbinic sources, most of them Tannaitic—i.e., composed in the Land of Israel. What, they didn’t know that trade is simply needless bitul Torah? And what of Maimonides on one who intends to live off Torah study (and even the Kesef Mishneh there—on whom those who permit themselves not to work rely—writes that many tried and did not succeed; i.e., even he only permits it after the fact)?

His explanation regarding the “kollelim” is ignorance of historical facts. People ascended to the Land not necessarily to learn Torah but to live and be buried here. The “kollelim” in question supported not specifically Torah learners. They distributed charity funds. Simply put, the Land’s residents in the past were poor and lacked work and livelihood, so Diaspora Jews supported them. The term “kollel” used in that context refers to a charity fund, not a place sustaining mass Torah study. That is not the term’s current usage.

And what does Rabbi Hirsch think of those who cannot learn all day for their entire lives? Oh, that’s simple: he claims there are no such people. Even those who want to go out to work do so only because of their craving for materialism. In essence, everyone is built for 24×7×120 study. Do you have a greater detachment from reality? Our Sages themselves say: one who does not see blessing in his learning after five years will never see it (Chullin 24a). According to Rabbi Hirsch, such people do not exist at all. So whom does the Talmud speak of?!

And I didn’t understand the answer to the initial question. Does the principle that everything should be Torah and nothing else not apply abroad? There, must one not disdain this world? That is the purpose of our creation—so what difference does it make whether we live in the Land or abroad? What is the connection between the Land’s holiness and the centrality of Torah among the aims of our creation and the vanity of this world?! Every child knows that when the Hazon Ish established the centrality of kollel study at the expense of going out to work, he did so not because of the Land’s holiness but to preserve Torah after the Holocaust—and probably also to distinguish from the secular here. That is likely also why this directive was not adopted abroad, since the fear of gentile influence is lower there. Ah, there is another reason, of course: foreign countries are not suckers who will support all the idlers who don’t work. Only here did they find their useful idiots who fund them. But these overly simple explanations eluded R. Hirsch’s holy spirit as it roams the supernal firmaments.

Finally, I wonder about R. Hirsch’s statement that in the Land of Israel the obligations from the Holy One are different. Where exactly did God say that? We did not learn this in the Torah of Moses; it is not taught in the Prophets, nor triply stated in the Writings—but rather in the words of his prophets in Bnei Brak, whose every word is a burning coal. They innovate exalted teachings—and due to their holiness they do not violate “Do not add” or “Do not subtract.”

He should really have said this: Friends, we fear corruption, and besides, here in Israel there are suckers who fund us by the billions. Therefore we call upon everyone to live off charity despite the moral and halachic prohibition involved. But Rabbi Hirsch prefers to invent folk tales that plant this in the Land’s holiness versus the impurity of the Diaspora, to invent new obligations and prohibitions from God known only to today’s greats (and not to the greats of earlier generations—who spoke of “decline of the generations”?!), perceived through their crystal eyes. It is very hard for me to believe he himself believes this drivel. Needless to say, his listeners of course answer “amen,” for his words come from on high; not only that, they immediately go out and disseminate these exalted pearls on YouTube to merit all the viewers.

So far we have mainly seen foolishness and detachment (though at such a level that we cannot ignore a dash of malice). But we have only begun. Now we move on to the next video.

Second video: Rabbi Yigal Rosen on the draft

In another video, Rabbi Yigal Rosen, head of the Or Yisrael yeshiva in Petah Tikva (formerly “Mizrachi,” heaven forfend), explains to us the distortions and errors of the Zionists who demand that Haredim enlist. The subject is the draft, but from a different angle, so I’ll address it nonetheless. My aim, as noted, is to examine his logic.

The moderator opens with a question: what do we answer ourselves about the fact that some return from Gaza in coffins and not from the yeshivot? Rabbi Rosen answers that from “our perspective” (the Haredi one) there is nothing to talk about. But even from their perspective (=the wicked), there is no argument here. He opens his learned analysis with a question: How many, do you think, among all soldiers are in mortal danger? He claims that for every combat soldier there are about 9–10 support personnel. From those ~10%, subtract the Air Force pilots because none of them die. So let the IDF first send the Air Force and the support personnel to Gaza before coming with claims against the Haredim. He then equates support personnel with “jobniks” (=his translation: people who do nothing). Finally, he tells that officers from one of the colleges came to him, and when one of them timidly raised (apparently owing to the rabbi’s sanctity and sublime wisdom) the question why they [Haredim] don’t enlist, Rabbi Rosen asked them why they themselves sit in college and don’t enlist. He says they were stunned and couldn’t answer (for the unfamiliar, this is a classic trait of tales about wicked “maskilim”: the maskil is always dumbstruck before the rabbi’s wisdom; how had he not thought of it himself?!). Then, in his kindness, Rabbi Rosen helped him—“open for him”—and explained that they are in college to prepare the army for the future. “But that is exactly what is done in yeshiva,” he immediately adds: caring for the next generation of Israel. QED. Well, to anyone who knows the genre, it goes without saying that in the end they accepted his words (his note: when you speak their language, they understand [those dimwits]). His conclusion: the claim that the wicked Zionists constantly fear the knock on the door is bubbe-meises. It concerns a very small minority; therefore there is no claim whatsoever against the Haredim. They are at least like support personnel (and that’s only by the wicked’s own view; by ours, of course, they are the main combatants).

There is no need to say that the logic here is rather shaky. Again, a talented rosh yeshiva who delivers brilliant learned lectures presents empty, vapid pilpulim that any child can see through. This is a wonderful illustration of pilpul divorced from common sense—an essential feature of Haredi [non-]thinking. It’s somewhat embarrassing even to address them in detail, but I will nonetheless do so briefly:

  • He of course ignores the hardships of those soldiers who do not risk their lives directly: people in reserves for hundreds of days, whose families are crushed, who also suffer loss of livelihood. He also ignores relatives who have lost loved ones and worry for other relatives (note to him: the relatives and friends of 10% of the soldiers are not 10% of the country’s families but far more). Beyond the dead, there are also physically and mentally wounded. None of this exists among Haredim and it exists in many more families than the number of soldiers who are directly at risk (which is itself not negligible).
  • I once read that the ratio of combatants to support personnel in the IDF is among the best in the world. You cannot conduct warfare without support personnel, and the claim that they are all idle and do nothing is demagoguery at its worst (I don’t claim the IDF is efficient and free of hidden unemployment, but that is true of every large organization. If Rabbi Rosen has a solution, I invite him to propose it—actually, to implement it first in Haredi kollelim). If you transferred the support personnel to Gaza, we could not conduct the war.
  • Air Force pilots number in the mere hundreds. A negligible number; there is no point even mentioning them in the overall picture.
  • But if we are already speaking: pilots do take serious risks. Strikes in Iran and Yemen carry real danger of capture or death (he might interview them about how they feel before such a mission), as do helicopters extracting wounded from combat zones. The fact that none have fallen thus far does not mean no risk; it means they are professionals who operate well. This too is demagoguery. Note as well: even in infantry and engineering the actual percentage of the fallen is very small.
  • Why compare to the percentage at risk out of all soldiers, rather than compare Yeshivat Or Yisrael to a given hesder yeshiva, for example—where the percentage is much higher (and the percentage of combatants is far higher)? On the contrary, let all of Or Yisrael enlist in Golani to improve our situation and the ratio of combatants to support personnel. Ah, he can of course say that Haredim are also support personnel (all of them? even those who don’t learn?).
  • But I don’t understand why Haredim should not contribute their share to that small percentage that is at risk. Why should they be completely exempt from that risk and all be only support personnel? This speaks also of those who do learn—but certainly of those who don’t.
  • Even for those who are learning, preparing Israel’s future can also be accomplished with 68 years of life devoted to learning, not only 70. Yeshiva students who enlist contribute no less to that preparation for the future. So at any given moment there are thousands of learners, and there will be ten percent fewer because they are serving. Is that the precise “minyan” of learners required to prepare the next generation?
  • The comparison of needs is also absurd. If the army truly could not manage without those officers in college, perhaps it would send them to Gaza. But it cannot, because then we would lose the next war. Without pilots, it is certainly impossible; sending them to be infantry in Gaza is ridiculous. Likewise for support personnel. But without all Haredim (here the exemption covers hundreds of thousands) we truly cannot manage in Gaza. Is there justification to invest in the next generation if this generation is in real danger? Does he truly mean that even in real danger one must set aside people to learn Torah? If an avrech or an avrech’s child is critically ill, is he permitted to go to a doctor? Or must he continue learning as “support personnel for medicine”?

I suspect that in a major shiur he delivers in the yeshiva he would not dare present such foolish arguments (I have heard genuinely fine ideas from him), but at a “giving of the Torah,” as is known, not a bird chirps and no one asks or wonders. There is not even a single innocent little girl there to ask: why? (Well, girls are in any case forbidden to think and learn.)

Third video: From the pearls of Rabbi Peretz Berman—about us

In the next video, Rabbi Berman, a rosh yeshiva at Ponovezh, deals with questions of fallen soldiers and military successes—but above all, he deals with us. I’ll only note that at Ponovezh every ram (lecturer) is called rosh yeshiva, so I don’t know his exact status. But it is the flagship Lithuanian yeshiva, so in any case he is a central rabbi. I must preface with a sampling of the superlatives beneath the video:

“In a riveting speech delivered at the Bnei HaYeshivot Conference (5785), Rabbi Berman holds up a searing mirror to the entire system and reveals the truth behind the war over drafting yeshiva students… This is a speech that dismantles all false claims, grants immense power and strength to the world of Torah, and makes clear once and for all why there is no place for dialogue. Watch the full remarks that will not leave you indifferent.”

Indeed you will find it hard to remain indifferent in the face of this torrent of malicious and detached stupidity.

Here the moderator centers the question of Haredi involvement in what is happening in the state. He explains that soldiers are being killed, and the feeling is that Haredim are like Australians, disconnected from what is happening here (see the Maimonides cited above).

Rabbi Berman opens by saying we are dealing with fools who don’t understand the world in which they live. They don’t even know that on Rosh Hashanah everything is decreed. You might think, as I did, that he means not literal foolishness but ignorance of Torah and Judaism. Before I show you that this is not what he means, I’ll say that even if that were his intent, calling it “foolishness” is a detachment from reality. Not everyone who thinks differently from you is a fool (especially in light of his pearls we shall soon see). But fear not: as you will immediately see, he is speaking of real foolishness—i.e., lack of intelligence. They (=the wicked and foolish) take pride in the beeper operation and in the successes in Iran. But that’s all nonsense. What’s the proof? Simple: where was their intelligence on Simchat Torah? What, at one moment they have intelligence and at another it shuts down? Impossible. Therefore it’s obvious that none of this is about intelligence and ability. It’s all divine assistance (in the merit of Torah learners, of course). QED.

For some reason, this exalted genius is not at all bothered by the opposite question: why did God help in Iran and in the beeper operation but not on Simchat Torah? So perhaps it is not God or Torah study? Well, His ways are mysterious—unless we have an idea of what is happening anyway. Only when the matter is “my strength and the might of my hand” do we have conclusive proof that it is God and Torah learners. But the thesis is unfalsifiable: if something works systematically, that too will not prove that the actions were ours. For this reason he can claim Torah study sustains us, but there is never a need to examine the learners when there is failure. Failures are ours; successes belong to God and to the Torah learners (Haredim only, of course).

The possibility that there are failures in the world—and that brilliant, surprising plans succeed because of the skill of their authors—does not cross his mind at all. Want to see this? Here comes the continuation.

Now the genius moves to a brilliant analysis of the beeper operation (so who says there’s no “Daas Torah”?! Here is a rosh yeshiva who is a commander and strategist more wondrous than all our generals. Fortunate are we!). This is his proof that everyone there (in the army, the ISA, and the government) are fools. Listen: it is such a stupid operation that even a children’s fantasy author no one reads wouldn’t dare imagine it (because it’s so idiotic). Why? Simple: it’s a plan where, for twenty years (I don’t know whence the number), they would make sure each person had a phone, and of course hundreds of people know about it—and despite that, the idiots rely on no one in Lebanon discovering it. In addition, whoever wants and decides to activate it, according to them, will be able to do so precisely at the right moment—not a moment earlier or later—and hit all the phone carriers who will just happen to have them on them. Moreover, in a country of one hundred million people (Lebanon has grown somewhat), with wise and clever people like ours—and somehow we presume they are all fools and no one will catch our plan or discover it. He concludes: “Even the biggest fool wouldn’t do such a thing.”

Must I explain anything here? Is there anyone who cannot see that we are talking about a certified fool who can barely be counted for a minyan (not by the Haredi criterion—by the criterion of a deaf-mute and a fool)?

I will only note that it’s a pity the Haredi ministers weren’t in the loop; otherwise they would surely have consulted with Rabbis Landau and Hirsch and with him, and would have received a clear directive to drop this nonsense. In any event, God did us a kindness and saved us from ourselves—causing this idiotic operation to succeed nonetheless. Fortunate are we. I only wonder whether, in this genius’s view, God is involved only in stupid operations, while clever ones are done without His help? Are clever operations indeed carried out by humans? It seems that in his view the salvations by God come only when we are truly foolish. Understand: if everything is in His hands, what difference does it make if we were foolish or not? The only important question is how they learned in Ponovezh that day, no? Whether the plan was stupid or smart—it really doesn’t matter.

I’ll spare you the wonders of “saves from missiles,” which, in the view of fools, are natural; but every child understands they are solely the hand of God (but not the events of Simchat Torah—remember: successes are His; failures are ours. Don’t be foolish Zionists; every child knows this). Along the way he releases surprising theological information: once, God would not perform open miracles because that would negate our free will (for some reason at Sinai, the Golden Calf, and the splitting of the sea this didn’t quite work—but those are trifles). But today He can do open miracles because the fools don’t understand anyway that everything (i.e., the successes—not the failures, of course) is only from God.

After these pearls, Rabbi Berman moves to more directly vilify (yes, it’s possible—if you wondered) all those who speak out against the Haredim. Here are some pearls: they are all (!) liars and frauds, wicked and impure, who seek only to uproot Torah and holiness and to multiply impurity in Israel. All (!) their children are thieves, criminals, and murderers. They are all (!) beasts walking on two legs; there is nothing between them and animals. He already established the bestiality of their stupidity above, of course.

In his words he also explains that they all (!) arrange cushy jobs for themselves in Unit 8200 and Army Radio, and none of them truly serve in the army (not willing to wet their finger for the army—in his golden phrase; perhaps he means service in Shayetet?!…). Note: he does not make the correct claim that there are also non-Haredim who dodge service and run to Army Radio or evade conscription altogether (and again, without 8200 there is no war and no victory—but the fool doesn’t understand that; we already saw this pearl in Rabbi Rosen above). He makes a different claim: that all those who accuse the Haredim are draft-dodgers and do not serve. And here the son asks: so who does serve? The Haredim don’t, and those who accuse them also don’t. So who does? I also don’t think those serving in combat units refrain from accusing the Haredim. There are the reservists’ organizations and “Shvut Ra’anan” and its friends. These wicked ones stand at the head of the accusers of the Haredim—and yet they fall in droves.

But fear not—he reaches the “Mizrachi-niks” too, and actually compliments them. They are not all wicked—rather, more ignoramuses. They are afflicted with what our Sages called “the hatred of the am ha’aretz for the talmid hakham.” The demand for a draft is so absurd that it can have no explanation other than hatred of Torah scholars. Those outstanding Torah scholars who sit on the railings or in yeshivot for dropouts are also the objects of the amei ha’aretz’s hatred. You may wonder whether they are truly Torah scholars—how dare you. As Haredim, they are exempt from the draft; therefore it is clear that each one is a “talmid hakham.” Otherwise, how would he be exempt under the clause “his Torah is his trade”? Use your head, you bunch of amei ha’aretz. Of the three videos, I think the last expresses malice in the most distilled form. In the first two, it is more detachment and stupidity than malice.

Conclusion

The four videos I chose here are a random sampling. You can watch almost any video on that horror channel and see whether my description here holds. Note that this unsettling display does not come from political operatives or fifth-rate Haredi spokesmen, but from those considered there to be the greats of the generation. It is a collection of hollow clichés—of course with not a drop of originality or innovation among them—but that is the lesser problem. These are low-level arguments laced with lies and with a magnificent, malicious detachment from reality—smugness without any basis, in a spirit of “I and none else,” repeatedly reinforced by the “Yamim al y’mei melech” dances. How is it possible that such people are considered great Torah scholars? How is it possible that they ensnare hundreds of thousands of fine Jews, some of them genuine Torah scholars? How is it possible that they present embarrassing arguments that, were they to present them in a major yeshiva lecture, the students would pelt them with their etrogim and laugh at them in the mikveh or the dining hall (you should know: Haredi yeshiva boys are very critical and sharp—even cynical)?

We are dealing with people whose intellectual capacities are not in doubt. The lectures they deliver in their yeshivot are likely complex and beautiful, and their Torah knowledge is likely broad. So what can cause them to descend to such a low level of discourse in every other field? How is it that intelligent people, when they merely step a bit aside from analysis of the Ketzot, reach unfathomed depths? I think the myth of “Daas Torah”—that whoever engages in Torah with devotion and persistence thereby acquires truth in every field and every word he says hits the deepest and loftiest truth—shatters here before the eyes of anyone willing to look soberly. As I wrote above, this truly arouses heretical thoughts. I honestly wondered, again and again: who knows how we should relate to the greats of past generations? Were they, too, technicians of the Ketzot without horizon or depth and without a moral spine? Did they, too, act with smugness on the basis of clichés they never seriously examined? I very much hope not—but who knows.

What stares out at us from these videos is the result of detachment from reality (which among Haredim is an ideology and a parameter that determines Torah greatness) combined with acute anxiety (when the winds of conscription enter the Haredi world, it deeply worries them and drives them to hysterical defensiveness), all woven together with narrow, constricted thinking devoid of any general education—and, of course, accompanied by a total absence of self-criticism and of audience critique (which is usually very critical and sober—but when they reach these subjects, they fall silent). All this means that when these people deal with something not written in Rashi script, they descend to depths of shallowness—which also presents their Torah as an empty vessel. Their detachment from reality enables their political operatives to persuade them that their words are exalted and impressive and should be disseminated widely. Thus, from this heap of conceptual trash they create a fervent YouTube channel, and it is evident they are convinced no listener will stand before this exalted wisdom and not become Haredi on the spot.

It may be that the habit whereby every person must hear their words, lick their plate with zeal, and dance before them “Yamim al y’mei melech” as if they were ministering angels leads them to smugness (evident in all these videos), and to the feeling that there is no need whatsoever to examine the arguments they present. I have little doubt that none of these people has ever reflected on the basis of his outlook, examined counter-arguments, and seriously weighed what he believes. He merely repeats clichés he has been force-fed, except that from his mouth they suddenly become some great light. It seems their analytical abilities stand against them as well. Such a person is used to great admiration (often deserved) for the lectures he gives (more accurately: delivers) in the yeshiva, and perhaps that admiration leads to arrogance and smugness and the sense that in every field he touches his words shine like the firmament. Of course, all others simply don’t understand the simple truth; thus, it’s no wonder that in their eyes anyone who thinks otherwise is either a fool or wicked. Otherwise, how could he fail to accept truths so absolute and clear? Poor fellow (a very common expression—truly touching—in the speech of such people).

These fellows are so detached from reality that they are not even capable of understanding that the criticisms against them in the areas of conscription and entering the workforce do not come from hatred of Torah scholars or a war against Torah, but from acute distress and a rational analysis of reality. It is important to understand that even if someone does not accept the arguments for conscription and for the importance of going to work, I would still expect at least that he understand his non-Haredi interlocutor and his point of view: that the critic is not living his entire life solely to destroy the world of Torah, but that he has a few other concerns (for example, wondering how and from where he will continue to support through his labor the parasitic world of Torah and defend it, and how he and his family will cope with the hundreds of reserve days yet to come). In the eyes of these rabbis—like any ordinary child in kindergarten (I have written many times about Haredi childishness)—anyone who is against him is wicked or wishes him ill. He has no ability to understand that there is another side. This is a kind of collective psychopathy, for empathy for the other simply does not exist there (see columns 493 and 709). Such empathetic understanding of reality—and of the people, ideas, and movements operating within it—is a minimal foundation without which it is impossible to conduct an intelligent discussion. But they are incapable of it.

In conclusion, this channel is nothing less than astounding, and the experience of watching it shakes me to this very moment. I now understand that we simply do not belong to the same religion or the same Torah. These are Torah scholars without sense—of whom the Midrash says a carcass is better than they. It is a sect that has split off from Judaism while choosing to preserve a few of its trappings. I think the questions about counting them for a minyan gain further force in light of what we have seen here.


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93 תגובות

  1. I assume that the problem with the great men of the generation is that they study Torah as a profession, but they develop their views “along the way.” Therefore, studying Torah is perceived as something that requires study, but views are built on the principle of “know what you will answer.” In other words, as a collection of nonsense and stories whose main purpose is to strengthen the heart of the listener. Rabbi Hirsch never asked himself “why don’t Haredim enlist?” The question he is concerned with is “how to come out well in an argument with someone who asks why Haredim don’t enlist.” And the result is accordingly. You will not find a halakhic answer to the question of why don’t they enlist because the view has been disconnected from halakhic law, and this is the root of the Haredim’s disaster. If the question of conscription were a halakhic question, then the rules of a halakhic answer would apply to the answer, but since the view is above the halakhic, then enough of the butterflies and, on the contrary, woe to anyone who tries to use the halakhic to create a view. Thus it turns out that the Haredi is busy escaping the experience that is service in the army and has failed in the attempt of “your brothers will go to war and you will sit” No one asks themselves whether the experience is whether they will prefer their next world to this world of other Jews, because the view is built on the pillars of butterflies.

      1. This is the inconceivable gap between the level of the arguments of the Stifler in the book Chai Olam and the communities of Jacob.

          1. There is another well-known Haredi great who argues in this way
            Everything is conspiratorial
            In his world, secularists are metaphysical entities of absolute evil
            They cannot have any considerations, matters
            Good arguments or anything like that
            And I am of course talking about the Rabbi of Brisk

    1. To Rabbi Michi Shalom,
      Your words are true and accurate, but they do not penetrate the heart, because of the wild style.
      It is a pity, you could have said the things in a more restrained way and then their impact would have been enormous

    2. Rabbi Michai, your words are sharp and thought-provoking, but they sometimes miss the historical, halakhic, and social depth of the Torah world:

      1. Greatness in Torah and scholars: Chazal (Haggaga T’vi) warns against “slandering scholars.” An outsider’s view does not always capture inner depth. Sometimes, humility and peace of mind – not a “brilliant” appearance – are a sign of true greatness that is evident in the rulings and education of generations.

      2. Going to work: Rabbi Yishmael (Berachot, 3) says “whoever practices them follows the custom of the land” – but Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai chooses study alone, and the halakhic law creates a space between worlds, as explained by the Rambam (Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:3). It is not clear to you that the current dosage is a mistake. And those who cancel a vast spiritual creation in favor of sociological data are missing out.

      3. **Conscription and military service: You will not find a sweeping “obligation to conscription” in the Torah. The Sages are careful that not everyone goes to war (Deuteronomy 4:4), and in times of spiritual danger they even allowed an exemption (see Mishnah Sota). The intensity and prayer of the students protects no less than the sword.

      4. **Profit at the expense of the public: The Gemara (Nederim 6221;b) speaks of “Gaon Yaakov who did not labor in him”, and the Rambam himself recognizes the value of individuals who study regularly – “Shvat Levi” – who retire for the benefit of all Israel (HebÙ Shemita and Yuval). And the history of the Haredi has never been based on laziness, but sometimes on wonderful dedication.

      5. Personal criticism and doubt: The abundance of criticism – even if justified – raises questions: Why can't you find a single virtue in the vast Torah work that has emerged? Could this stem from an uncomfortable personal encounter and not from a desire for theoretical objectivity?

      6. Empathy and building a society: “Judge every person with the right measure” (Avot). Building the Jewish people is a shared challenge – and sometimes “neither with your own strength nor with your own sting” is not a slogan, but a moral responsibility.

      I hope that you will also try to see the beautiful sides of Haredi society, and not build your spiritual world mainly on its criticism.

      With best wishes,
      A seeker of truth and knowledge.

      1. A truly strange message, especially when it comes from someone who considers himself an intellectual. I will address it briefly.

        1. Where there is blasphemy, they do not show respect to the rabbi, and especially to a rabbi who has no intelligence. Indeed, they may be complete idiots on the outside, but on the inside they are pure-minded and magnanimous. They hide it well.

        2. What is the point of shmita in a kebab? The argument there was that God Almighty demands that we not serve. Why did you bring in Rashbi and Rish here?

        3. How did you come to a discussion about the mandatory military service that I did not enter here. Of course, your claims are also unfounded, when it comes to a blanket exemption for all Haredim. And protecting these corrupt scholars can make us cringe. It certainly does not save anyone.

        4. The Maimonides does not write that the Levites make a living from the public. But I won't get into a discussion about this Maimonides here because that's not the point.

        5. My topic here was a critique of their distorted logic. I didn't give a review of the virtues and shortcomings of Haredi here. Nor did I describe the clothes they wear.

        6. I don't have a drop of empathy for a psychopathic public devoid of empathy. Nor should I have one.

        Thank you for the wishes. I hope you will replace sticky and unfounded defenses with substantive arguments (which do not exist on these issues).

      2. You motherfucker, did you ask ChatGPT to create an apologetic for the words of the quoted fools? Psshh, the rabbis of the past warned against criticizing themselves, what intellectual honesty!

    3. Greetings and blessings Rabbi Michael,
      I am surprised that there was no reference to the theological issue in the third video.
      There, the thesis was basically put forward that the Holy One, blessed be He, puts ideas into the mouths of the people of Israel, without them doing anything, because all wisdom is the product of Torah study. And what is interesting is that there is a complete nullification here of human thought, human creation, and in general, of choice, labor, for those who work with God. In fact, everything that happens in the world, all the good that happens in the material world, is the product of studying the Gemara, of engaging in studying the Torah. And in fact, all human actions, the person who performs them, are simply totally activated by the Holy One, blessed be He, so that he has no action in them by his own power, but by the power of the Holy One, blessed be He, who implants ideas in him. The whole matter of human action is null and void. This is a serious innovation…

      Isn't that right?

      1. He certainly addressed this concept in several columns, regarding the strange "duty of effort" in this concept.

    4. It is not true that there are no halakhic answers to why Torah students should not enlist, there is that of Rabbi Benizri, for example, with many sources and halakhic arguments.
      But you are right that the main reason that the Haredim do not enlist is because the military structure does not give the Haredi much of a chance to remain Haredi (and in fact to remain as God-fearing as he entered), and so on.

      1. You actually prove my point. On such an acute issue as conscription into the army, there is only a halachic reference from third-level rabbis (with apologies, out of respect for the Torah of Rabbi Benizri), while the greats of the generation and the giants of halachic law do not see any need to address the matter at all. Show me one Haredi whose halachic source is the rulings of Rabbi Benizri. Didn't you find one? M.S.L.

    5. Indeed, a fine distinction, but to a clearly foreign person. Anyone who knows a little about the Haredi Mishnah knows that the mitzvah in whose name they are evading (the version of Rabbi Hirsch and Degel HaTorah) is the mitzvah of the T. This mitzvah is a halakhic answer if you missed the point. (I will add that perhaps we do not need to discuss it at all from a classical halakhic perspective, since the leaders relate to the world of yeshivahs and kollels now that doing something violates your Torah, and therefore the T rejects even a mitzvah that may be done by others.)

  2. I watched some of the segments, indeed a terrifying spectacle of unfathomable darkness of mind. The poor people who follow them. And about them and those who listen to them it is said that so-and-so studied Torah, see how evil his deeds are, etc.

  3. Apparently, Rabbi Michai missed the words of the Maimonides, who divides the law of losing a property between the Land of Israel and abroad. In the Land of Israel, there is an obligation to pursue it and to lose it, leaving nothing behind, but abroad, only in any place where idolatry is found. And so on.

    1. What's the point of putting a shemita on an omelet? And is anyone arguing that here there are different laws than abroad? Maybe I'm not wise, but at least it's not true about me.

  4. And I was just waiting for your comment about them using chatgpt to write the captions for the videos.
    God, I wish I was a pixel on a computer screen to see what format they used.

  5. I must point out that Rabbi Rosen in his message (which I also think is incorrect) did not say that we do not need all the supporters of fighting, etc., and that they are also needed in the army. His main argument on the question of who endangers lives can be asked not only about the Haredim but also about just a Jobnik (who is needed). Apparently this comes from the assumption that we have two levels, one that endangers the soul and the other that does not, and since Rabbi Yigal Rosen is perhaps connected to the traditional public, he can guess that there are many traditional and religious people who think that studying Torah is beneficial and important and therefore will claim that he is like a Jobnik who does not spare his soul.

      1. “And the claim that everyone is idle and does nothing is demagogy in the extreme….If they had transferred the supporters of the fighting to Gaza, we could not have waged the war”
        This is a quote from the Torah, it explicitly says that there are those who do and it is clear that they need to wage an army

  6. Regarding the concern you raised about the previous generation of rabbis, were they also disconnected and thinking about everything that was not study in depth like the rabbis of this generation?
    I can perhaps reassure you that in fact, since the establishment of the yeshiva world, the rabbis of the generation have become the heads of yeshiva, in contrast to the past when the rabbis of the generation were mainly rabbis of cities. A Lithuanian rabbi today is a fairly isolated person who does not speak to anyone except in theoretical study, and therefore a disconnect can be created that was not there in the past. Today, the rabbis of the rabbis of the generation are not only a book of shiurim on the classical tractates, which also hinders the renewal of Torah writing in the Haredi public.
    It is not for nothing that the rabbis of the previous generation were also rabbis of faith, whose religious writings can be seen to this day influencing people and were probably more connected to the public. We can name the Maharal, the Ramban. You can also find this in the world of Hasidism, which works more and meets with the outside world, and also where the Rebbe is not the Rosh Yeshiva (it is passed down from father to son, which could be worse, but you can definitely see that the first Rebbe of many Hasidic sects were definitely thinking people), such as Baal Tanya and Shephat Emet and Reb Tzadok, etc.
    Therefore, you can say that your concern is about the great men of the generation only from the last generations of the Jewish people.

    1. When analyzing the Haredi response to the acute problems of the last 200 years, such as assimilation, the Enlightenment movement, the influx into socialism, etc., one cannot help but come to the conclusion: even the “Gadoilim” of that time were nothing more than grumpy old men who knew how to fire up verses, invent new halachic prohibitions every now and then, ask the public to recite Tehillim more loudly, and that’s it. No special creative strategy, unlike German neo-Orthodoxy.

  7. At the time I asked you exactly about the point you opened with. Is the Torah so heartless? And I remembered that Jeroboam was also the greatest of the generation (and he was a priest and a priest and so on). Maybe we should launch a bus campaign – Jeroboam was also the greatest of the generation…

  8. Among us, the ultra-Orthodox are content with little… Anyone who knows how to quibble over a few issues in the Seder Nezikin is considered great in Torah. And so it is in almost every profession: Anyone who knows how to operate keyboards (especially those programmed with the automatic, bouncing accompaniments…) and knows how to perform a few chord series (usually related to the jazz genre) is considered a musical genius. Over time, this person asks himself, if he already does, then why doesn't he also conduct? All while not knowing the basics of music! And the wise men bow before him as if this were Mozart or Bach, etc.
    Likewise, anyone who has any knowledge of installations, electrical electronics, etc. will be called an expert or technician.
    When it comes to medical matters, who is more expert than the Rebbe? And if not the Rebbe himself, then one of his followers. (Yes, there are individuals like Rabbi Firer who have extensive experience, but most of them just quibble as they please.)

    I enjoyed the terminology "end technician." I've been using the term keyboard technician for wedding musicians for years.

  9. Reminds me of Leibowitz's words about the Haredim, who said they were a sect and a kind of pathological development of Judaism.

  10. Haredi society is truly an Orwellian society
    The past is erased from its mind with a wave of a hand when it suits the political tycoons who run it.
    After all, most of what are called the greats of the generation are old enough people who lived here in the pre-Begin era and they surely remember that
    Exemptions from conscription were limited and married Haredim served in the IDF, which was then much more secular than it is today.
    The absurd claim that a Lithuanian man a priori does not work began in the days of Rabbi Schach in the 1980s.
    The kollel and yeshiva institutions were not so numerous, and not every Haredi boy with a pulse called himself a yeshiva student, and not every young man who just put a ring on someone's finger was called an avrech and sent to rot in some kollel.
    Not even in the Land of Israel, which has special privileges.
    And in general, if in the Land of Israel they don't have to work, why are Haredi women sent to work in very, very secular places, much more than the IDF, where they sat at home and the money came out of the toaster.
    Therefore, as I wrote here once and you (Rabbi Michi) disagreed with me, this society is already in its advanced Hedonistic and Nihilistic stage.
    It is not interested in anything except preserving its comfort. For this purpose, it will use the most absurd excuses possible.

    1. Hedonism is a surprising accusation against a society that lives in poverty by choosing to favor an ideology.

      1. I know it sounds strange
        But Haredim are willing to kill their entire environment for the sacred right to eat cholent or fly to Lizhensk during a pandemic, for example
        Their hedonism is not expressed in eating caviar and driving a Rolls Royce
        But for them, their material agenda must continue even during a nuclear attack

      2. Haredi society strives to continue to enjoy all the privileges of living in a Western country while making a conscious effort to give back as little as possible.
        Have you ever encountered a Haredi who was not approved for a pension?
        Have you ever encountered a Haredi who said the bus to Meron was not comfortable enough for his taste?
        Have you ever encountered their reactions?
        This is a society that is sure that all the pleasures of life come to it for free.
        This is a type of hedonism.
        Haredi hedonism

        1. Five minutes ago I heard Israel Parosh on the radio that if the possibility for any deserter who wants to fly to Uman is not regulated, they will close Ben Gurion Airport.
          This is how they live.
          Others will die in epidemics.
          Die in Gaza.
          They will do hundreds of days of reserve duty.
          And they will fly to Uman.
          Woe to you if you don't.
          This is unbridled Haredi hedonism.
          This is a type of hedonism.

          1. You can say a lot about it, but not hedonism. This terminology is not related at all.
            It is more appropriate to call it exploitation, or a fanatical ideology that does not see others on the path. But it is not related to hedonism, the Haredim are the furthest from it.

            1. Taking back the word hedonism
              But it's completely infantile hedonism
              They don't hide it anymore
              It's no longer Torah study
              No longer protection from the outside world
              You'll all die, go to hell, fall apart
              We'll fly to Uman, we'll go to Miron
              And the Goldknoffs grew
              It's impossible without New York

              1. I haven't followed the details of the discussion, but on the face of it there's no reason to take back the concept. People go there for the pleasure and the experience, and that's hedonism. The fact that the pleasures in question are an experience and not eating cake doesn't change the matter. It's not really any different from pursuing the pleasures of a movie or a singer's performance.

  11. Regarding what Rabbi Rosen said, it is also worth talking about the basic premise of his entire argument: his entire argument implicitly assumes that the statement “IDF soldiers are killed and you are not” is a statement that demands that the Haredim *die* in the name of equality. Then it makes sense to say, for example, “Why do we die and pilots/jobbers/officers in professional academic training don’t?” Supposedly, the army has an interest in sharing the risk equally in the name of justice, and if we happen to have found a way to contribute to the war effort without risk, we should, in the name of justice and equality, intentionally endanger these people. Without such an assumption, there is no logic to the claim “send the pilots to Gaza.” Why would we send them to Gaza? Here I have a man who has undergone very, very expensive and grueling training so that he can fight *without* taking the same risks as an infantryman and so that he can make other soldiers fight with much less risk, so in the name of justice and equality let's kill him. *This is the basic premise of his argument*. This is so crazy. Needless to say, no one cares that the Haredim die. They care that they contribute to the war effort, and the death issue is just an argument that shows why evading this effort is parasitism of the worst kind, because it expects others to take risks for them. The only argument that could work here is “We are like Jobnikim because we study Torah and in this way we actually send the soldiers divine energy that allows them to win”. This cannot be argued with logic, and one can only argue (it is not that difficult to argue, but it is possible) with the hidden moral argument: "If I believe that I am donating to you and you do not believe it at all, is it moral to force you to exempt me from the obligation to donate in your own way (which does not contradict my way), when it is clear that you are paying a heavy price for it and I am not." This is even if we assume out of kindness, it is not clear that the Haredim really believe this, and reality shows that they do not really and very rarely do.

  12. I have, Rabbi Michi, what may be a scoop for you: 90% of the Haredim, no matter what group they belong to, will agree with every word you wrote, provided that their opinion is not published. If there is a commandment that is flouted in Haredim circles, it is the commandment “You shall not be jealous of anyone.” This instruction was given only to the dayanim, but everyone violates it from their own understanding (for severity, perhaps he is included as well) … after all, if they express their true opinion publicly (including the rabbis and leaders of public opinion!) they will not accept their great-grandchildren into yeshivas and seminaries!!!! In my opinion, instead of having a fear of the Divine Presence, they have a fear of their neighbor (the fear of the neighbor), what will the neighbor say about him and how will he be seen in public. This is the principle that guides all their conduct and worldview.

    1. I disagree with this scoop.
      There are many who identify with ideas and criticisms, but among them there are quite a few who continue to hold on to those “Torah greats”. It is not just fear of the neighbor.

      1. https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/discourse/article/bk11d1w5ygl?utm_source=https://www.ynet.co.il&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=general_share

    2. …And this is in contrast to academia where everyone expresses their opinion with complete freedom, but the hand of random evolution has led to almost everyone expressing the same positions?

  13. Regarding what happened in previous generations, I always thought there was a pretty high chance that we are glorifying the legendary names – Tannaim, Amoraim, Rishonim, etc. – and turning them all into superhumans as a result of two things:
    1 – A natural tendency of humans to believe that people of our generation are not “like people of the past”. This happens with athletes, politicians, military personnel, writers, movie stars, etc. So also with Torah greats of previous generations. In specific cases this may be justified, but for the most part, I think it is a delusion and a longing for the past.

    2 – A conscious decision by opinion-formers over the generations to turn the greats of previous generations into people whose greatness we cannot imagine. Without this, why would we take their halachic rulings seriously hundreds and thousands of years after they were given. The transformation of Chazal and the Rishonim into supermen allows us to convince ourselves that even when it seems to us that certain of their statements have long been irrelevant (or even ridiculous), if they were supernatural, they probably knew that what they stated would also be relevant hundreds of years in the future. Thus, we made a huge deal about the decline of generations and ignored, for example, the fact that the Rishonim had much less “material” to specialize in, etc. Why would anyone want to study a question in the Gemara that relates to a woman’s testimony and study it at the expense of other productive things they could be doing, if this is what the people of the second century CE thought, even if they were scholars at the time? After all, they were literally angels.

    1. 1. You are right, this is a natural tendency among all members of the human race, and is known as ”historical romanticism”. Of course, a society whose entire values and existence are built on the past will be more inclined to this.

      2. It is true that the principle of “generational descent” is a means of ensuring the continuity of preserving tradition, but your comment about “studying a topic in the Gemara that refers to a woman's testimony at the expense of other productive things” assumes that Talmud Torah is “an unproductive activity”, and this is no longer related to the level of greatness of the people of the second century, but to a materialistic worldview that does not see much value in unproductive activities (or at least to a perception that does not see the importance of engaging in the Torah of Israel itself).

  14. This is a cult, of course, with all the pathology that this implies. I think a good interpretive way to begin to understand it is to look for parallels to such societies in the world. I am of course aware of the problems with such comparisons, but I still think that the benefit of this approach exists. And here is a surprise: my gut feeling is that in the modern world (certainly the one before it) it will be difficult to find a phenomenon parallel to this cult outside of Judaism. There is something authentically Jewish after all in the Israeli Haredi that has developed here. This is not a compliment or an insult, but probably a statement of fact. Needless to say, there are worse pathologies outside of Judaism, but as our great poet said: There are some more beautiful than her, but none as beautiful as her.

  15. It is important to note that Torah greats in the past grew out of a dedication to the love of wisdom and Torah, and did not have the environment that Torah greats have today - an environment of a "student community" whose default is to sit all day in the kollel. In the past, it is likely that the great had to overcome the difficult hurdles of poverty and illegitimacy before becoming famous as a "rabbi". Therefore, it is more likely that there was in him and in his personality some added value of human greatness, besides the intellectual one. Today, on the other hand, when the entire environment supports and even forces the yeshiva student to "become great" and continue to study - there is no guarantee that the one who did so is anything more than a conformist lazy person, devoid of human strength. It is precisely those who emerge from the press of this society - They are the ones who are mostly made of different material. (As you wrote in the past). Consequently: The disaster of greatness in Torah grew simultaneously with the establishment of the “Society of Learners” and the delivery of fixed allowances for them – just as Maimonides predicted. What is true, and this is a question that deserves a column– Who among us would argue that great minds in the general world do indeed receive some kind of priority over the masses and their naive logic? What is the use of studying and reading the words of Hacha, philosophy, and general thought if the results are that there is no agreement on anything? Our eyes see that wise sages turn out to be complete idiots when it comes to politics (e.g., the artists' letter on Gaza, Kaplan's demonstrations, and the musings of anti-Semitism throughout the world). Here the question is directed to you – How does all your wisdom lead you even slightly to the truth, if wise men of a similar caliber to yours (and there are not many) can claim at the other end of the universe - by virtue of their wisdom and knowledge - exactly the opposite of you (!) regarding the greatest questions - the reality of God, the essence of justice, and the meaning of life? Sometimes it seems that all knowledge is nothing more than a shell for formulating an inner point that is already dictated in advance. In any case, the most poignant riddle of all arises and arises: what can convince you when you look in the mirror that you yourself are not some "Gaddoyle" in disguise?! (I am not asking cynically. I really think this is something that requires personal enlightenment from anyone who invests in studying wisdom).

      1. I didn't find the link there, but at least I corresponded with Michai Bot and was exposed to the subject. There is still a point there that has not been addressed (as stated, according to what I was exposed to Michai Bot only, and correct me if I'm wrong). What is wrong with a simple person like me? I see myself as someone who is unable, for several different reasons, among which the most important is the shortness of the grasp and the shortness of the concept (and other reasons as mentioned), to get into the thick of it and decide for myself who is right, and I have no choice but to rely on those who are greater than me (for my part, call it even blind. I once heard Mr. Bonim joke about what the difference is between a Hasid and a Litvak? That if a Hasid tells his rabbi to jump off a roof, he will immediately hurry up and jump, while a Litvak will indeed obey, but will first check whether his rabbi has not lost his sanity. I will add that if the student is from the third path, he will first ask his rabbi to show him how to do so, because "greatness is more useful than learning." I have no choice, Michai. But a. To follow your inner intuition b. To consider the side circumstances and then decide. I tell you, Miki, honestly, I have known you both personally and from your books for decades and I also know Rabbi Schreiber, as mentioned above (he was a rabbi in the community I was in for at least 10 years until I became Rosh Yeshiva and moved to Jerusalem) with my hand on my heart, Miki, if I think about business from the side of calculations of the world to come, what should I bet on? When I stand before the court of Ma'ale, I do not have even an ounce of fear that they will ask me why you followed Rabbi Schreiber and not Miki) As opposed to the opposite, if I follow you, I am more afraid that I will lose all my share and be condemned for generations to come (may God have mercy on me) This is from my inner intuition. There is no way to fight it and try to deceive myself. That is clear to you, and what are my side considerations besides my inner intuition? I am looking at you and him? In terms of greatness and knowledge of the Torah, there is no doubt that you are not at all up to the task of confronting him (like the battered Haredi law puts you in the small pocket). The man knows Babylon, Jerusalem, Shabbat, and Shabbat, and so on and so forth, and has already managed to write books in detail on all the tractates of the Shas. On the other hand, in matters of knowledge of the physical sciences taught at the university, the pendulum swings in your favor. You have a degree compared to Rabbis who were not exposed to this material at all. But with us, as mentioned, this is not necessarily a disadvantage. Some will say that it nullifies the Torah. This is not the way to test and extend it. Of course, it would be funny to rely on you because of your knowledge of physics. And if we go to the wisdom of everyday life, I have seen him and you in this, you are more or less equal. And in terms of the analytical and philosophical skills of both of you, I have no ability to decide until I see a meeting between you, and even then, I am limited, I am only saying when I can say to myself (as limited as mentioned) Rabbi Bonim has a younger brother named Rabbi Shimon Schreiber, whose philosophical abilities I admire more than anyone I've ever met, and who seems even more so than Rabbi Bonim, but as mentioned, I'm limited in my ability to decide on someone older than me (by the way, they have a third brother named Rabbi Yossel Schreiber, about whom I heard from a friend of Rabbi Bonim himself that he was older than him. I have no idea about giants.) So what do I have left now? To examine and decide only from the perspective of side things (apart from intuition) and it is only from where you came from and what are the parallels of your successes, it is clear that I have more weight for someone who was raised and born in holiness and raised in the Torah and immersed in the Torah all his days than for someone like you who is a Baal Teshuvah. Understand if I follow you when I look at myself in the mirror I will have to swallow so many strange frogs (out of respect for you, I will not write them down. I am sure you are smart enough to understand what I mean) to think that there is a need to fear your positions. So if someone like me who has known both of you and your positions for many years and is only seeking the truth, it is healthy for me that I do not need to fear you and your teachings. What can be said about the young people of the flock who do not know you and the elders of the Haredi public? In my opinion, this whole enterprise has no chance except for those who are perhaps secular or reform and religious lite or ultra-Orthodox who have dropped out. And from your perspective, maybe it's a success to at least save the above. Time will tell, but I am one of those who remain. There are others like me who seek and love truth, but they are a minority within the minority, since they are not exposed to the media like I am and are immersed only in the world of Torah, so their chances are generally close to zero.

    1. Nice argument
      The problem is that the current gaddoyil of the haredi public did not grow up in a climate where Torah study is the default
      Maybe in 30 years

    2. You have doubts about the way human reason works, and yet you will agree that there are plenty of good and logical reasons not to cross a busy road with your eyes closed. Rabbi Michi tried to point out, and it seems to me that he succeeded quite easily, that these videos are in the category of trying to convince us that there is no danger in crossing the road in the manner I described.

      1. I remember reading a book called "The Great Ones" - the individuals who saddened the face of Haredi Judaism in Israel. The book reviews all the rabbinical figures who saddened the "Haredi" as it is today. In the last part of the book, the researchers there discuss rabbinical figures who went beyond the boundaries of Harediism and also influenced the Israeli public, such as Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eierbach, Rabbi Yosef Elyashiv, Rabbi Zion Abba Shaul, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. It is difficult not to see the profound difference between the above figures and those who are called "great ones"; today I call them "puppets on a string." Since the passing of these figures, the Haredi public has been in a process of degeneration and has been unable to find rabbis who will fill their void with Torah greatness and leadership, and who also seem to have conducted a dialogue with the Israeli public and known how to reach compromises with them on various issues. The Haredi public today appoints people who have never gone beyond the borders of Bnei Brak or who know the Israeli public and know how to conduct a dialogue with it. Sad.

  16. You can say a lot of bad things about the ultra-Orthodox Gaddoil. But to win the current ”war” (the quotation marks are intentional, because the government doesn't really want to win) it's enough to listen to Moshe Feiglin: ”occupation, expulsion and settlement”.
    How many soldiers does it take to cut off the water and electricity to the Gaza bastards?
    https://he.mishpacha.com/%d7%94%d7%97%d7%a8%d7%93%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%94%d7%9d-%d7%9c%d7%90-%d7%94%d7%91%d7%a2%d7%99%d7%94-%d7%94%d7%9d-%d7%94%d7%a4%d7%aa%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%9f/

  17. I connect so much with things. The question is, what is the place of these “great Torah scholars” in the world of Halacha? And in the world of Halacha, I mean the weak [healthy, financially, etc.] who sometimes [and I emphasize “sometimes”] do not fully understand the plight of the person seeking help.

  18. What is more immoral, staying home or sending a child to risk their life for the whims of post-Zionists like Yitzhak Goldfein and Aharon Barak, whose children sit in air-conditioned rooms in Tel Aviv at best? How is it possible that the national religious public is silent about this?! Is it better to die for Aharon Barak and Asa Kosher?!

  19. And I wonder about the doubts of – The host does not study in the kollel, what he does is work for which he receives wages and pays taxes legally. He is one of those who an ultra-Orthodox girl will not even agree to meet with (supposedly). This channel is not intended for the general public or even for humans. This channel is aimed at pleasing the sponsor so that he will continue to donate so that there will be a salary for the host. Even the rabbis who speak – their words are aimed at pleasing the growing donors. Not you – You are the possible competitor on the donation market.
    This is the sad result of a commercial version of Judaism, Joseph Caro.

      1. Duch Halevi and his friends criticize Rabbi Yosef Karo for using the Mishnah to establish halachically the permission to earn a living from the Torah, contrary to the words of the Maimonides. He has many Shiginas in his world, and this group of Shiginas is one of the easiest of them.

  20. Rabbi Michai, your words are sharp and thought-provoking, but they sometimes miss the historical, halakhic, and social depth of the Torah world:

    1. Greatness in Torah and scholars: Chazal (Haggaga T’vi) warns against “slandering scholars.” An outsider’s view does not always capture inner depth. Sometimes, humility and peace of mind – not a “brilliant” appearance – are a sign of true greatness that is evident in the rulings and education of generations.

    2. Going to work: Rabbi Yishmael (Berachot, 3) says “whoever practices them follows the custom of the land” – but Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai chooses study alone, and the halakhic law creates a space between worlds, as explained by the Rambam (Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:3). It is not clear to you that the current dosage is a mistake. And those who cancel a vast spiritual creation in favor of sociological data are missing out.

    3. Conscription and military service: You will not find a sweeping “obligation to conscript” in the Torah. The Sages are careful that not everyone goes to war (Deuteronomy 4:4), and in times of spiritual danger they even allowed an exemption (see Mishnah Sota). The intensity and prayer of the students protects no less than the sword.

    4. Making a living at the expense of the public: The Gemara (Nederim 62:2) speaks of “Gaon Yaakov who did not labor in himself,” and the Rambam himself recognizes the value of individuals who study regularly – “the tribe of Levi” – who retire for the benefit of all Israel (Heb. Shemitah and Yuval). And the history of the Haredi community has never been based on laziness, but sometimes on wonderful dedication.

    5. Personal criticism and doubt: The abundance of criticism – even if justified – raises questions: Why can’t you find a single virtue in the vast Torah work that has emerged? Could this stem from an uncomfortable personal encounter and not from a desire for theoretical objectivity?

    6. Empathy and building a society: “Judge every person with the right measure” (Avot). Building the Jewish people is a shared challenge – and sometimes “neither your own nor your own” is not a slogan, but a moral responsibility.

    I hope that you will also try to see the beautiful sides of Haredi society, and not build your spiritual world mainly on its criticism.

    Best regards,

  21. From the outside, it seems that the rabbis are grossly hiding the real reason and are dressing it up in a repulsive view that even a 5-year-old child would not accept. I really want to see a real debate between Rabbi Michi and an important Haredi rabbi because they have become accustomed to not arguing and verifying their words on the halakhic level. Their rulings are political and clearly oppose the views of Torah scholars who said the exact opposite of their view, such as the Hatam Sofer or the Havne Nezer. The general exemption began in 1977 with Menachem Begin who bribed them and in the end the scripture is fulfilled: "He will blind the eyes of the wise and distort the words of the righteous." The saddest thing is that since 2012 they consider themselves an ethnic minority like the Druze and the Bedouin and have removed themselves from the Israeli Jewish category in order to receive budgets for Haredi education that does not teach core studies.

  22. Although the subject here is not the draft itself, it is present here both in the post and in the comments. I would like to bring to the Rabbi's attention important information on the matter from a man who is trusted by me and many others, a great T.A., who is also accurate in facts and in the presentation of facts, even in places where others exaggerate a bit. Let's not talk about cutting corners that he does not have, who met with three of the most senior figures in the defense establishment, namely Rabbi Yaakov Hadas, who knows all the Torah, revealed and hidden (he did experience a personal tragedy in his family's affairs, but this is not related to the matter) and who wrote a booklet about Yaakov as an addition to a book that was recently published called "For Me Radin." I am sure that even if this does not cause the Rabbi to change his view on the matter, it is worth the Rabbi knowing this important information that will perhaps add a dash of understanding to the Rabbi's general view, like the well-known expression "Make sense." (Knowing real facts will never hurt, I hope the rabbi will respect that it took me a long time to type every letter and will not just belittle or delete even if I made a mistake in judgment. My intention is for the good overall)

    Ibid. on page 775 from here on I copy the words literally without any interference or disparagement
    Branch C
    A. And the issue of people trying to convince young men to go out to work is added to the fact that in the last generation there are people from the heads of government and its institutions who have set themselves the goal of changing Haredi Judaism, and this addition causes an addition of bad things that are done because of this.
    B. And a few years ago, I think it was in 2005, I had a man from the highest ranks in the security system, and he came to me to ask for a blessing on a private matter of his and his blessings, and then I asked him if he could do me a private favor, and what it was, because like the rest of the public, I try without a vow to pray a lot for the good of the people of Israel and their salvation from every trouble and distress, although in the Tosafot of Baba Metzia, page 106, verse 1, it is explained that sometimes prayer in detail is more beneficial than prayer in general, and if so, it would be useful for me to know what the most serious security problem facing the Land of Israel is today, which tells me that the most serious is the danger of Hamas, and that tells me Fatah, and that tells me Syria, and that tells me suicide bombers, and that tells me Da'esh, and I don't understand anything about it, and I can't trust any of them, and if he tells me I can trust his words.
    C. And his answer was something like this: All the problems you mentioned are from problem number two onwards, problem number one is something else entirely, and I asked him what it was? And he replied, a surplus of soldiers in the army. And so on.
    D. And I was very surprised to hear this, and I asked him what the great danger in this was, and he replied that the days are over when the natural effort to win a war depends on the number of soldiers and the length of the rifles, today things depend more on various developments, and the large number of soldiers means that a large part of the defense budget goes to financing the army, and then there are also expensive pensions and a lack of money for the things that really cause victory.
    E. And he gave an example of the Protective Edge War, in which, unfortunately, many dozens of soldiers were killed. The reality was that the order of things was the kidnapping of boys in Gush Etzion and the young women being kidnapped and the kidnappers for many days. In order to solve the mystery, many arrests of senior Arabs were made. In response, many rockets were fired from Gaza many times to many places. Therefore, they had to go to war to stop the rockets. If the money had gone to development, they could have long ago installed a defense system that prevents the penetration of missiles in such a way that the rockets would have had no reason to go to war.
    Branch D.
    A. And I asked him, if that's really the case, why don't we change it and reduce the army and solve the whole problem? He replied that there are several reasons for this, the main one being that in order to reduce the army, compulsory conscription must be abolished.
    B. And if compulsory conscription is abolished by doing so, there will be no way to change the living conditions of the Haredi public.
    C. I was amazed to hear these things, and I asked him: Is it so important in their eyes to change the lifestyles of the Haredim that they agreed to abandon the lives of many for this?
    D. And he replied that for them, Haredi culture is something more serious than a security problem, etc.
    E. When I told these things to several people, they told me that this was made public by one of the heads of the Mossad or the Shin Bet a few years ago, who revealed that in their secret meetings they treated the issue of Haredi culture as a problem more serious than the Iranian nuclear program, etc., but I did not hear this from an authorized source, and only from people in the public who said that this was made public and also gave the name of the person who said it and his position.
    Branch E.
    A. After some time, I told these things to a senior member of the defense establishment, and he told me that everything was true, and that even with a simpler calculation, it is possible to understand how without a lack of money they would not have gone to war.
    B. And he explained that the very fact that in such a sensitive area where they were kidnapped there were no cameras is inexplicable, and the real answer to that is the large number of soldiers in the army, which takes up the budget in a terrible way that causes such omissions due to lack of funds.
    C. And he said that if there had been cameras there even after the kidnapping, the kidnapped and the kidnappers would have been found within a few hours, and in general they might not have carried out the kidnapping at all.
    D. And he asked him if Amai does not publish the things, so that the general public knows and strongly opposes such an injustice that many people were killed for such challenges.
    E. And he replied to me that anyone who dares to publish things in this direction immediately loses his position in the army and everything the army gives him and is simply afraid.
    Branch V.
    A. The two senior officials above who told me these things are very famous people in the general public in the country by virtue of their positions.
    B. But I somehow managed to tell the story to a person who is also a senior member of the security forces but is behind the scenes and is not known to the public,
    C. And he told me that besides all of these things being true, there is another thing in it, that if there had been a larger budget, it would have been possible to prevent the entire kidnapping in the first place.
    D. And he explained to me how it was possible, but he forbade me to publish the details.
    E. Although in my opinion many who understand security matters can understand this, it is understandable, but in any case, since he requested it, I did not write the details.
    F. And what concerns our affairs in all this, how terrible their desire to change the Haredi public is, and how willing they are to do anything for it, and therefore how careful we should be about cooperating with them.
    Branch G.
    A. Now, at the time of printing this book in the winter of 2004, the reality has changed for several reasons, and perhaps there is a lack of manpower for the army {but it is clear that the main reason for the entire situation that has arisen was not due to a lack of manpower but rather due to an error in the entire understanding of the issues}.
    B. But this does not change the above that they have a definite goal of changing the Haredi public and for this alone they have done enormous activities for many years to recruit Haredim, and therefore it is clear that even if now they have another reason, in any case when Haredim are handed over to them for the army there is no doubt that they will do sophisticated things to change their lifestyles, and this was told to me by knowledgeable people who are in the matters {and such as what is written above in the supplement after point E in branch A in part A of section 12 and onwards in the matters of the Haredi stream, see there very serious things}. And the main point is that even if there is a shortage of manpower in the army, God forbid, it would be conceivable to exclude Torah students because the best defense is Torah students, and on the contrary, the current situation is a reason to increase the number of Torah students even more. So far, his language

    1. I'm sorry you bothered to type. These are nonsense, and as is the custom of Haredi apologetics, they rely on very well-founded and reliable information from an anonymous expert with a world-renowned reputation in the field, and whoever interviewed him is an exceptional genius who doesn't let anything unverified slip out of his hands. And all of this is of course the exact opposite of what we all know, but what are we, what are our lives…
      In fact, it would have been appropriate to delete this nonsense propaganda, but I spared you the (unnecessary) effort you put into typing it.

  23. A. From my personal and uncertified research, the percentage of casualties among the ultra-Orthodox is not significantly lower than that of the secular, the gap is filled in the following order, religious and traditional. Most seculars serve in combat support roles or in the 8200th Army, etc., hence the low number of casualties recorded among them.
    I conclude from this that the ultra-Orthodox can be criticized for not bearing the burden of casualties, but on condition that the criticism is directed at both the ultra-Orthodox and the secular. Anyone who acts otherwise is a hypocrite.
    Are you really claiming that the pilots are risking their lives when no Israeli plane has been shot down in the last 50 years??
    The demand for equality in the burden, which does not concern the question of casualties, is a complex question, but the ultra-Orthodox believe ideologically that their role in the Beit Midrash is an important and critical combat support role, and they truly believe that they are bearing the burden.
    As for all the semi-ultra-Orthodox underclassmen, the only reason the Haredim oppose recruiting them is the direct fear that it will harm their level of religiosity, and the fear that it will degrade the level of spirituality of the Haredi public, a.k.a. not understanding this fear..
    B. In general, a.k.a. not agreeing with you because it is very embarrassing that people who demonstrate profound and intelligent abilities in Talmud, stand behind such embarrassing arguments when it comes to ideological questions that threaten them, but I think the answer to that is simple.
    Although I have respect for you, who, unlike other rabbis, truly and sincerely try to explain in a logical and appropriate way the reason for your belief in God, however, if you turn to the absolute majority of rabbis from all branches of Judaism, religious Haredim and perhaps even Conservatives, and try to validate them with religious questions, you will raise a pot in your hand and be rewarded with awkward and unintelligible answers, but it does not come down to religion.
    When you come to the average academic and try to validate him on the question of releasing such a large number of terrorists in exchange for individual hostages, you will initially hear stammering arguments that will later turn into meaningless fundamentalist slogans, and a clear unwillingness to hold a proper logical discourse on the matter. Likewise when you try to explain to him why such broad powers for the High Court of Justice do not go well with the original idea of democracy.
    The point is simple, most people are not rational, or semi-rational, they will be very smart and intelligent, but when you press on their point of identity, and try to turn it into its logical or moral logic, you will discover a confused person in front of you who will become violent and fundamentalist in a few seconds.
    I do not see the Haredim as exceptional in this matter, and I do not think they deserve the title of evil and stupid.
    In my opinion, this is classic irrationality when faced with a threat to their identity, which unfortunately happens to everyone.

    1. I have long wondered about the same question as Rabbi Michi regarding ridiculous theoretical arguments from scholars and Torah scholars, and if at first I was inclined to blame the Haredi perspective, over time I came to see that the phenomenon exists among intellectuals of all shades and methods, which forced me to seek the explanation in human nature and not necessarily in a particular circle.

      I recently came to a conclusion similar to yours, regarding the reaction to a threat to identity (which also explains the sharpness and extremism in Rabbi Michi's columns regarding the Haredi). I will add another point, which is that even if the speaker agrees in his heart that there is a certain place for the counterargument and that the matter is more complex than the form he presents, he will never admit this publicly because he does not want to show any doubt about the righteousness of the path, which could affect the inclination of those listening to him.

  24. I agree that there is a lot of ridiculousness in the things said in the videos, and R.P. Berman's words in particular are very outrageous.
    However, it is better to approach the subject in a cold intellectual manner without the nerves and anger that characterize this column (like the other columns concerning the Haredim). It seems to me that if we try to truly understand what the other side wants to say, we can understand the rationale behind the words a little better, without any contradiction to the stupid parts that were said.

    I listened to Rabbi Hirsch's words and I understand that he evaded a real answer to the question itself, probably for reasons of political correctness (“something unheard of”, undermining the foundations of the Lithuanian Torah world, etc.). In my understanding, the division he mentioned between Israel and abroad was intended to provide a historical explanation for an existing phenomenon, and not as a reason to mandate the current course of action forever (which he did not address). The main focus of his words was on the issue of distancing oneself from materialism, which was intended to encourage students to deal with the difficulty of making a living.

    Regarding the statements about conscription, if we filter out all the nonsense and irritating rhetoric, we can find the main rational logic in their claim, which is to dull the sting of the argument of ”Why don't your sons return in coffins”. In this they are right that the claim is a bit demagogic, because we all know that there are communities whose sons very few return in coffins and yet no one comes to them with such claims, which means that the problem is not the difference in the number of those who fall but rather the very fact of evading conscription in general, which is of course a correct and just claim, but it lacks the emotional vulnerability of bereaved parents who are grieving for their sons. (By the way, girls hardly ever go back in the closets, and we haven't heard the advocates of gender equality lament the severe discrimination.)

    Also, there is a lot of truth in Rach's claim about the Torah haters whose whole goal is to uproot the Torah and Judaism from the Jewish people. You don't have to believe him, just read a little Haaretz, Yedioth Ahronoth, and a few other websites that represent this segment of the people to understand who they are and what they think. His arguments about the "Mizrahi" are of course greatly exaggerated, but it's hard not to wonder who hates the Haredim more because of their blind adherence to mystical beliefs at the expense of others, than the secular elite that does everything to be like all the Gentiles, even at the expense of others. Isn't there at least a little hatred of the people of the land for the Tzvi?

    In short, my intention is not to ignore the collection of nonsense and nonsense said in these videos, but to say that if you put emotion aside and try to understand what the other side's message is, you can understand that there is a certain logic to it, even if, in the end, they are very wrong.

  25. A small note:
    If you really wonder whether “HaFetz Chaim, Rabbi Akiva Eiger, Maimonides, Rav Ashi, Rabbi, Rabbi Akiva, Moses, Abraham, and all the figures we were educated on” were all like the rabbis mentioned in the videos, then you should fear that they are right and you are the one who is wrong, instead of concluding from this that they are all infantile fools and only you are the wise one, right?

  26. Regarding your comment that all successes are attributed to God and failures to us, I do assume that this stems from thoughtless rhetoric that is unfortunately found among those who speak of transparency, but as for the substance of the matter, it seems to me that there is a theological explanation for this, based on the idea already mentioned in the Book of Lamentations and expanded upon by various thinkers over the generations, according to which evil in the world stems from the lack of divine abundance, and not from the positive influence of evil. From this stems the thinking that if we have succeeded, then we have connected to divine abundance, and if we have failed, then we have apparently failed to connect to it.

    Of course, according to your view that there is no providence at all in our time, none of this is relevant, but according to the traditional view, which is old - as I understand it, this is the theological rationale behind things.

    1. הגאון החשוב מאור הגולה נשמת הדור אנדרו הוזייר says:

      I am surprised that you, Rabbi Mikhi, do not see that those statements coming from the mouths of the great rabbis and rabbis of the generation are actually logically binding!!!
      If the great rabbi of the generation had doubted even for a moment the obligation of sweeping takeover, it would have become clear in retrospect that he was not the great rabbi of the generation. And since there are no reasonable arguments to purify this creep, dry logic dictates that the great rabbis of the generation would literally say these things as if they were possessed by a demon.
      Furthermore, the type of arguments and the way they are presented have a great practical advantage. If the rabbis were to present clever ideas with profound explanations about the obligation of non-conscription, their public, accustomed to learning, would be able to examine the things as they would any other educational process, and perhaps reach different conclusions.
      The title ‘Conference of Yeshiva Students in the Presence of the Great rabbis’ Every word said in it is logically binding, and in truth, perhaps it would have been possible to save and leave only the title and still mean it.

  27. You grew up with them. You were even their representative. I remember the puzzling explanations about how the Haredi community is not a financial burden.
    So how do you now ‘discover’ this?
    Well, it's like just a rebuke, what do I want from you. But the question is how does this not undermine your self-perception. You were part of the Haredi community for many years, you listened to these mental confusions, and you made them heard by your students from religious Zionism. You dealt with their good questions thanks to a very good ability to win arguments. Doesn't this undermine your self-perception? Maybe your ability to understand reality really isn't as high as you think?

    1. A good question, certainly, but aren't you asking the same question about yourself and your perception of the Haredi public? Perhaps your ability to understand their arguments and reality is not as high as you think?

    2. A note in place. This is one of Miki's deep problems, he gets into the subject and if he thinks he is right he will insult, mock and run over the other side. Tomorrow morning he will think differently, so yesterday's Miki is the fool etc etc and everything is firmly to the end
      My advice to you and the readers of the site, do not be moved by the collection of expressions and curses. Examine things for yourself, and never let someone else's firmness lead you. I know it is easy to get carried away with Miki K”u after he almost always presents the other side as a fool, but do not forget that tomorrow he may think differently and again he will present that Buddha or something else is the truth and again everything is firmly and vain

  28. I started and was shocked by the horror style of His Honor, I tried to continue for the sake of searching for the truth but I broke down in the middle from the harsh epithets. Too bad, too bad, too bad. (And it doesn't matter now that they tell me that they too, etc., I relate to what I read, and if I see an ultra-Orthodox rabbi expressing himself in this way, I will respond the same way. Enough with such low formulations, do we lack enemies at home and abroad?)

    1. I always thought that the virtue of academics and people who are not bound by religious dogmas is that they discuss issues in a balanced and moderate manner without the childish rants of "let him be killed and let him not pass" and "declaration of annihilation" that are prevalent in ultra-Orthodox circles. But apparently at some point, emotion gets in the way for everyone.

  29. You wrote beautifully and these are truly depressing and sad videos.
    Only regarding Rabbi Hirsch's assumption about the difference between the land and the foreign land, I assume that he is referring to the famous Ramban in Leviticus 18 regarding the superiority of Israel as the inheritance of the Lord and "I have set up for you Zionists."

    1. He is not. First, it is an interpretation of the Torah that has no basis and it is unlikely that anyone would seriously build a worldview on it. Second, this Ramban has nothing to do with the prohibition of working in the Land of Israel. The very claim that there is a difference between the Land and the foreign land does not require the Ramban. It is simple and there is no dispute about it. Well, this is not relevant to the discussion.

    2. The problem is much deeper, and it is called ‘Gemara Judaism’. That is, that post-biblical Judaism, with its midrashim, biased commentaries, segulat and mimarim that almost completely supplanted Biblical Judaism.

      When one treats with reverence not only the legal layer of the Gemara, but also the subjective opinions of the Tannaim and Amoraim (who were in essence the early version of the contemporary Haredi rabbis), this is the result: a twisted religion of ‘Sage faith’ that relies on stories of deeds and presents a distorted view of reality. King David is transformed from a womanizing general into a learned scholar, Joshua ben Nun is given the image of a great man of his generation who studies 24/7, while all the nonsense of the ’sacred view’ originates from a sequence of errors that are thousands of years old.

      1. The Lord would not have spoken to King David if he had been a "womanizer" (according to the Bible).
        Fortunately, most people see no need to take your words seriously.

          1. He spoke to him through a prophet! This shows that he was important enough to him.

            1. Just as he spoke to Pharaoh and Jeroboam son of Nebat and Ahab through a prophet.

          2. David had the Holy Spirit even if not prophecy. “The Spirit of the ’ spoke by me and his word was on my tongue”

  30. A close family member used to say that everyone learns from the elders about the ruler and he learns from the ruler about the elders.

    The relative in question studied Jewish Poles in the second half of the nineteenth century and claims that today they are repeating all their mistakes one by one.

  31. Regarding Rabbi Rosen's words, in my understanding he answered the very question that was asked – Why do they risk and die and we don't. And according to the question, the answer is correct – Even in the army, the vast majority do not risk and die because there are many supporters of fighting on the home front (more or less important – he really did not belittle everyone), and so, according to the belief that studying Torah is beneficial to fighters on the battlefield (which many of the site's readers also hold) – Torah students did not detract from any supporter of fighting who does not risk. I do not see a flaw in this answer to the very question that was asked. It is important to be precise.
    I do agree that the question in advance is incorrect, because you should not look only at those who die, and there are several other considerations around them besides deaths, such as the burden on the reserves and their families, and the need for more soldiers, whether combat or not.

  32. Very nice. Simple things, but some need to be opened.

    I just want to ask a question or make a request. The Haredim are indeed ‘stupid’ and as mentioned, but simply they are ‘good’, meaning – they think they are doing the will of God’ and do not lie to themselves. The secular elite are supposedly ‘wise’ but they are, in my understanding, ‘bad’, meaning – they are –one in mouth and one in heart’, they say one thing and do the other. Let's take for example the issue of bearing the burden of bereavement. It seems that in percentages almost half of the fallen are religious Zionists, and from the field it seems that the rest are mostly traditional, which is right-wing, and indeed it is understandable how many of the elite do send their sons to fight..

    A great many people in the secular left-wing public go to the army mainly for ‘personal development’ ‘self-fulfillment’ and even experience. In contrast to the national religious who go to ‘contribute’ and so do the Haredim – many of them – because it is the will of God; (indeed many also study abroad, etc., but many because it is the will of God) and if it turns out for them that the will of God is to enlist, I am pretty sure that they will all go to the most elite tours.

    What do you think about that? I think that in general it is worth a column to distinguish between a ‘moral person’ (whose reason is more examined by motives and desires) and a ‘person who does a moral act’ (whose reason is examined by actions). I hope I was understood..

    1. I have written more than once about the distinction between the deed and the doer (who should be judged according to his method).
      I do not think that the discussion here is about motives. The question is what is actually done. The motives are dedicated to each person in their own right and are not a matter for others. Yeshiva students and their rabbis also do things and study for self-realization. I have not done statistics and therefore I do not know how to deal with the numbers you refer to (although I am very suspicious of them).
      The Haredim do wrong and distorted things, and it is true that many of them believe this. But this is the very claim that they are babies who have been captured by their own hands. The one who made them make mistakes is themselves, and that is the criticism.

  33. Another entertaining video on why Haredim shouldn't work.
    And as a wonderful addition, you can also learn from the video (minute 2:10) about K”u (maybe also suitable as a response to column 735….)

    https://youtu.be/PADoD58U_NI?si=TpBUZH0sZGoHh_ll

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