A Question About Faith – Lesson 8

I'll go through it, thanks.

Why can't we compare, for example, faith to empirical science regarding prophecies that have come true? If the prophecy does not come true, then it turns out that he is a false prophet and the prophet is killed, and if it comes true, it is evidence that he is a true prophet and from now on he is trusted also regarding his prediction of what will happen in the future?

Because the prophecies are really not unambiguous. And there are other reasons why they don't come true.

So how is it possible, according to your words, to kill a prophet who prophesied and none of what he said came true? (See Rambam) A. He was not unequivocal, and if so, he did not prophesy falsely B. He will always make excuses for what you have written now, that there are other reasons why they do not come true

This is just at the examination stage. You and I were talking about prophecies in the Bible.

Is it only in the testing phase?
That is: only before the prophet is officially recognized – they check whether his prophecies are fulfilled.
But how will his prophecy be tested if, according to you, “the prophecies in the Bible are not unambiguous” and ”there are always excuses why they were not fulfilled”?
If there is no objective criterion to test fulfillment – then the “testing phase” has also collapsed.

Maimonides is not talking only about a “technical phase”, but about the truth of the prophetic test:
Unambiguous fulfillment = truth.
Non-fulfillment = lie.
Without this, the entire concept of prophecy is emptied.

What is not clear? I explained. When a prophet is tested, he is supposed to issue prophecies that can be tested empirically. For example: Tomorrow at ten in the morning 12 mm of rain will fall. The prophecies in the Bible are not like that. Therefore, faith is not a scientific test.

Sorry for the outburst – I’m relatively new here on the blog, but every time I’m amazed anew by the tricks of the tongue and the ease with which you hide and manage to evade behind rhetorical slips down the chitchat, and by the wonder that rhetoric slips through the readers and commenters’ fingers here – like public soap.
Because this time, with all due respect – it simply crossed the line of good taste. Listen, this is no longer an argument, but a dense smokescreen of vague chitchat,
And this is an excellent opportunity to show Nadav and the other readers here, how you can turn a philosophical blunder into a distinct show of brilliant rhetorical acrobatics – that makes viewers forget the simple question:
What did we actually ask? And what did the rabbi answer? So it clearly seems that there is a pretty transparent attempt here to evade the central question!
It’s also not really clear what exactly you gained from this ridiculous assertion that it’s “only at the exam stage”?
Your argument tries to grab the rope from both ends: On the one hand, you claim that prophets were indeed tested empirically – and then, as if “after the kindergarten teacher went out for a break” – you claim that suddenly the prophecies that followed are no longer unambiguous, and have “good reasons” not to come true, huh? Is this radio??
Your mouth answered you: Every prophet in your Bible that entered your bookshelf has already passed the “credibility test” that you set, and in an empirical way, and if, in your opinion, from the moment the prophet passed the test, he is absurdly entitled to shoot and make vague, elusive and vague statements, and everything is still considered &#8221prophecy”to him?
What insurance policy is this? With a Bible like that, I (like you) would lose interest in it too.
And you still ask, “What’s not clear?” – Maybe it’s not clear which Bible edition with a filter you have at home?
For example, my edition of the Prophets includes Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jonah, Malachi, and a few other old friends – and there, contrary to what you say, there are a lot of concrete, measurable, and completely empirical predictions. Some with a clear time frame, some with a detailed description of clear events – which allow for empirical examination such as the destruction of the temple within 70 years, the sudden death of a certain ruler, war, famine – and all tested and verified in reality
So with your permission, I will give, in a nutshell, a light overview of completely measurable and accurate predictions

Jeremiah: “At the end of the seventy years for Babylon – I will punish you”.
Bingo. Measured, dated, and fulfilled (Ezra 1’).

Isaiah 4:1–5:5
“I say to Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I desire he will fulfill.’
The prophet Isaiah calls on the name of Cyrus – some two hundred years before his time – and prophesies that he will return the people of Israel to their land and rebuild the temple.
Measured? Certainly. Clear history. Return to Zion. Cyrus’ declaration.

Elisha informs the Shunammite woman:
“Arise and go, for the Lord has called for a famine, and it will come upon the land for seven years.”
And indeed, the Shunammite woman packs a suitcase.
A Prophecy About Drought – With Precise Timing and Pre-Declared Duration
And Not Just Any Weather Forecast

Jonah: “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown” – with a stopwatch.
True, they repented – but the prediction was measurable.

Jeremiah 28 – Hananiah Ben Azur Dies in a Year
Hananiah predicts that the kingdom of Judah will return to prosperity within two years. Jeremiah responds:
“Behold, I will cast you off the face of the earth; this year you shall die” Hananiah Ben Azur dies within a year, exactly according to the prediction written on your Bible.
And very empirical. Either he dies this year – or he doesn’t. No excuses.

1 Kings 13:13 – The Death of the False Prophet
The prophet prophesies that Josiah will sacrifice bones on the altar at Bethel. And adds an immediate sign – the altar will be torn apart and the ashes will be poured out.
A prophecy with a “double sign”: both a future sign (Josiah), and an immediate sign (the altar was torn apart and the ashes were poured out).
With two conditions that were met, and precise details for both the present and the future
All of these are not just prophecies – but empirical tests of every kind, the prophets were certainly tested, and sometimes even publicly!

…So what is left of your sweeping claim – “The prophecies are really not unambiguous and there are other reasons why they are not fulfilled” – if not an attempt to bypass the focus of the discussion? Even if this is stated with some certainty, it is still impossible to ignore the fact that many of the prophecies in the Bible meet (and have met) measurable standards.

PS
Even if we accept your position that it only concerns the testing stage –
the very fact that you demand an empirical test to receive credit for a prophet,
indicates that according to you too – the Bible includes content that can be scientifically tested.
And sometimes – even more sharply than contemporary scientists are willing to commit to.

Thank you scientist, you really took the words out of my mouth, please don't turn off the water until the discussion is exhausted.

In honor of the scientist, you can turn off the water. If you haven't received a response by now, I assume you won't. I'll try to get answers on another blog.