An ultra-Orthodox person who confused me about recruiting ultra-Orthodox people.
Hello Miki, I spoke with a friend at work today whose brother-in-law is a Haredi priest and we went to him in Beit Shemesh and he explained to us in a mesmerizing way why Haredim don’t enlist. I can’t seem to recover. I came away terribly confused. I’m a graduate of Seder yeshiva… I’d appreciate it if you would respond if you agree or disagree and why? (And without the hatred you have for the Haredim, not that I have a problem with it, but simply because for me it diminishes the clarity of the arguments, and also because it’s hard for me to accept ad hominem arguments.)
From a halachic perspective, he explained that in all of the Torah, we see that there is a security value for a core of Torah students in times of war, and he cited halachic sources for his words. (See Sanhedrin 44, If it were not for David, Yoav would not have waged war, page 10, “Why did the feet of Israel stand in the war, because the gates of Jerusalem were occupied with Torah?” He quoted and opened to me Zohar, Maharl… everything is in place at his house, etc.).
And the section of the Haredi public that did not get involved in the world of yeshivahs argued that indeed, it was right to send him to the army to contribute his part to the war effort in a material, technical sense, but since the IDF is not a purely military security body but an educational body that progressively tries to shape the perception and outlook of those who enter its ranks, the rabbis will not send the non-learners either, because it is important to fulfill the mitzvah that follows the offense, and in particular when it comes to an offense that uproots the recognition and commitment to all of “secular” Judaism, and we are not dealing with a side offense. In addition, also for security reasons, because there is no greater security injustice to the people of Israel (as someone said and even cited a source) than to cause the Jews to cool down and become spiritually rough, something that can and should definitely happen to a young Torah-observant Jew who enters a framework where the spirit is not Jewish. In short, he concluded, “We are not part of the existence of Israeli society (but we are part of the people of Israel) And therefore, any body that is a fruit and product of Israeli society will not take part in it, and there is no greater ideological fruit of Israeli society than the IDF, as the common saying goes, “A people builds an army, a people builds.”
And why aren’t the Haredim promoting frameworks in a kosher Jewish spirit with the IDF, he argued, first of all, that they have tried in the past in several projects and the IDF is considered unreliable in the area of promises in Yiddishkeit matters, and he claimed that we, the “Mizrahi Jews”, know this well. In addition, he also argued that because there is no shortage of soldiers in the sense of pikuach nefesh, but in the sense of a lack that creates severe discomfort, although not in the lack of the Sadak related to the rescue of the workers (which is certainly an accurate fact) and if it is said that there is a shortage in the sense of pikuach, the Haredi argued – then why don’t the National Rabbis send Shiur A and B in their Hesder yeshivas??, and in addition he said that there are enough seculars who can make up for the missing Sadak, and claims of work, family, and livelihood are not a matter of pikuach nefesh but of comfort, and he said that the obligation of the Haredi rabbis to ensure that the spiritual well-being of the non-students takes precedence over their obligation to ensure the well-being of the non-conscripted seculars who can indeed fill the shortage of soldiers if such a shortage exists.
In short, I came away vague and confused. I had never heard such a well-organized, eloquent, and non-confrontational Haredi position. I suddenly felt brainwashed by the public I grew up in, as I had never noticed the cold Torah analysis of the Haredi public, covered in secular and national-religious populism.
I have to say that I am really shocked by the things. To be so impressed by a collection of recycled and inferior arguments that every Haredi speaker says in exactly the same way and to see it as an extraordinary and convincing discourse is really strange. Maybe because he spoke in a hypnotic way, you are still under the influence. It is really embarrassing to address such childish and evil arguments. Nevertheless, I decided to address it, but I need more introduction.
It’s hard for me to decide whether the way you addressed me and dictated how I should answer you and the implicit accusation of ad hominem stems from impudence or stupidity. As with the ultra-Orthodox arguments like the ones you cited (I’ve already touched on the quality of ultra-Orthodox arguments on this subject and in general in several columns), it’s very hard to decide whether it’s malice or stupidity, or maybe both. Or maybe it’s just brainwashing and living in a bubble (babies who were taken). I judge you rightly that you’re under hypnosis.
Now you are probably saying to yourself, here he is repeating his ad hominem, making arguments for the person and not for the matter. So here is the first lesson on ad hominem. An ad hominem argument is an argument that relies on irrelevant characteristics of the person making the argument in order to reject the argument. If Reuben says X and I say that Reuben is evil or an idiot or a woman or a Gentile and thus reject X, that is an ad hominem argument (although, the claim that he is stupid is not entirely ad hominem). But if I make arguments that show why X is not true, and conclude by saying that the arguer is evil or stupid, that is not really ad hominem. That is the conclusion of the discussion: whoever makes such a stupid/evil argument is stupid/evil. I do not remember a time when I referred to something with ad hominem arguments. I certainly refer to people and groups, but their characteristics are presented as a conclusion from arguments and not as arguments themselves.
Beyond that, I would be happy if you could point to an example in which the ad hominem and my hatred obscure the clarity of the answer itself. I usually formulate it quite clearly. Even if I attack someone, I don’t think it affects the clarity of the arguments and the formulation. But I would be happy to see examples in this regard as well, unless this accusation also stems from the aforementioned hypnosis.
So that I do not suspect the Honorable of an ad hominem fallacy, I have nevertheless chosen to address these ridiculous arguments. I will do so in stages. In the first stage, I ignore the question of spoilage and deal with the scholars and the outrageous claim (and I express myself very gently) that there is no situation of “Pikon” here.
Let’s start with the slogan of Torah Magna and Matzala. In most cases, it is taken out of context (I have emphasized this more than once here on the site). But beyond that, even the Haredim themselves do not really believe in it. Are they content with studying Torah instead of going to the doctor or in any other emergency? Wouldn’t they leave the kollel to take their son who is running a fever to the doctor? Would they deepen their studies or try to call the police or run away when a thief/murderer enters their home? If so, then I have a new suggestion, instead of a law coming from the underground: Instead of killing the thief, go back and study and everything will be fine. And spare me the nonsense of ‘effort’, which I have also emphasized here more than once (you can search the site). No one really believes in it. But even if they do, it is irrelevant to the discussion: if one has to make an effort, then one makes an effort in all areas, even when it is inconvenient (one does not leave the kollel for a doctor). And if study is a substitute that makes effort unnecessary, then one should do so in all areas (do not go to the doctor).
I will just point out that learning can protect us even if every Abrech studied his entire life except for a year and a half of service, as with the Hesder soldiers. After all, at any given moment there are thousands of learners who would protect us, even if they were all enlisted for a period of service. So why is it relevant that Torah magna and mitzvah?
What is more, it is generally agreed that a certain number of Torah students can be exempted from military service. But they must be screened to be serious students, who will persist in this their entire lives (and not just during their years of military service. For some reason, only then does the Torah magna and mitzvah apply), and also in between times. The wholesale exemption currently granted to anyone enrolled in a yeshiva or kollel is not an exemption for Torah students, but for idlers and liars.
The argument about why they don’t recruit Seder soldiers in the first years or senior citizens or extend the service to ten years instead of three is a truly evil argument. I didn’t see that yeshiva students canceled the interregnum to protect us in the last war. After all, we all remember that it is the Torah that protects, right?
In general, a society cannot exist if it is all enlisted for military service. There is also a state and an economy to maintain, otherwise how many Haredim will be able to extort money?! That is why they established a three-year service and the rest of the people go about their business unless there is an emergency like war and they recruit reservists. This is another indication that the Haredi mindset has not passed the age of four, and they are unable to understand the difference between running an army and a state and the questions of the Pikn on the level of individual people. A state distributes tasks among its citizens in such a way that it can exist on all levels (that is why money is invested in culture and kollels, even when the state is in danger and when there is not enough budget to save all the sick). By the way, among the Haredi, no one asked them to enlist for life. To serve for a year and a half. They do not want to give even a day, and for this, the Hesder soldiers should not study even a day. Does that sound reasonable to you? The formulation that mocks the respected Hesder rabbis that they should be honored and enlist in Shiur A-B with them is simply delusional and evil. They should stop their Torah (remembering Magna and Mitzla), and not study even one day, so that the Haredi can not serve even one day. Why shouldn’t the Haredi enlist for one year, and then study the rest of their lives. That would free the Hesder students to study in their Shiur A. It does not sound More likely? Without this year’s Torah in the life of every Abrecht, we would collapse and not be saved? Has your eloquent one ever heard of the expression “decorate yourself,” or did they not reach that in their kollel?
As for the claim that it is not a Piko’n. Consider two people who live in a certain house, and now someone comes and threatens to kill them both. It is known that if one of them goes out and fights against him, he will win but die. If both go out, then perhaps one of them will die and perhaps both will be saved. Reuven knows that Shimon will go out in any case, and therefore says to himself, there is no Piko’n here, since Reuven will win even on his own. And in general, going out and helping Reuven is dangerous, because I might pay with my life. Would you accept such an argument? Leave aside for now the implications and whether it is similar to the one discussed by Didan or not. In the meantime, tell me whether you would accept the argument. Note that of course Reuven is talking about his Piko’n. The fact that Reuven will die (to protect him too) does not bother him at all. Do you think he is right that it is not a situation of “Pikon”? Is the argument that it is dangerous relevant to evade his duty to bear the burden? When thousands of soldiers die in a war, is it not “Pikon”? Why, because the state (and the parasitic Haredim within it) remains alive? Who would dare to say “Dadam Didach Somek Tefi”?! To clarify, if this were true, then every secular or religious person should or could also evade conscription for the same reason.
Now I will ask about a situation where Reuven can study Torah instead of going out to help. Does it sound reasonable to you that he would tell Shimon to go out and I will study Torah? What’s more, there are also Shimon-Yam (Datal) who want to study just like him. So why should he sit down and study? Let him enlist and you be the one to sit down and study.
Beyond that, I have explained more than once that the childish Haredi mindset does not understand what it means to run a country and have an army defend it. They think of this situation like the problem of a three-person kollel-sitting Pikun. What is the problem? Right now everything is fine, if a Pikun situation arises then we will abandon everything and enlist. But at the level of a country it will already be too late. When the situation arises where all of our lives are in danger, then we will decide to enlist, we will convince all the sages from Beit Shemesh that this is indeed the case, and then we will train everyone. And all of this will be done when the enemies are on the fences and our situation is critical. Is this how you think about running a country and an army? Is there anyone over the age of four who takes this way of thinking seriously? So why don’t we all just stay home, not just the Haredim, and when the enemies come, they will call us. Just like in the Bible, when the enemies come, they recruit all the guys to fight.
Now comes the question of the fear of spoilage. I will address this briefly, because I have already answered this several times here on the site. First, the spoilage of those who enlist in many cases (in my opinion in most cases) is not created in the army. They already enter there spoiled. An unspoiled Haredi does not make it to the army. Therefore, this myth that the army spoils is greatly exaggerated. Go out and see what happens to the students of the Rabbi Center who enlist on their own (not in the framework of a Beinish) in the army for a short service. How many of them spoil? Compared to how many Haredi who spoil? Why is there such a difference? Because the army only brings out of the force what already exists inside. If you educate for service as a calling, you can prevent the spoilage.
Furthermore, work and academic studies also spoil (we won’t go into the intensity and scope of the spoilage right now. The question is fundamental). Go out and see what happens to those who leave the kollel, who is more and who is less. So why is it allowed there? Because you have to make a living. Well, but you also have to defend your life. The difference is that in making a living, others won’t do the work for you, and in the army there are suckers who do it (and yes, it is a Picon situation).
In addition, when there is a lack of picon, there are concerns about spoilage. The Bible cites a dispute among the Rishonim about whether one desecrates Shabbat for my daughter who was kidnapped by Gentiles who will raise her as a Gentile for her entire life. Some of the Rishonim forbid desecrating Shabbat for this. And those who permit it because there is certainly a concern here, not a doubt, and she loses her Jewishness completely. It is highly doubtful whether those poskim would permit desecration of Shabbat if there is a concern that she will lose her rabbinate and stop wearing a gertel. Therefore, the distinction between concern for life and spiritual concern, even if there is indeed such a concern, is a distinction that is far from being obvious.
The duty to organize the army to serve the Haredim falls first and foremost on them. The stupid slogans that the army is progressive are a weapon of those who have run out of arguments. There are problems in the army, and it is not always run properly, in all areas, not just the Jewish area. Paying attention to this is simply childish. Beyond that, we have a government with a lot of Haredim, they have been in the coalition for many years. Let them force the army to organize properly. By the way, it is now organizing itself in a completely serious way, but it is convenient for the Haredim to point to local deficiencies as an excuse. One of the reasons the army was not organized properly is that the Haredim simply do not come. It is clear to everyone that this has nothing to do with the organization of the army. They want to differentiate themselves in order to preserve Harediism, not in order to preserve Judaism.
It doesn’t work that way, so that others will do all the work for you and you sit back and wait until everything is to your satisfaction. I enlist even though the army puts my life at risk. Sometimes it also conducts itself in a rather stupid way that endangers lives. So you suggest that I not enlist because the army is progressive and pitied the Arabs? Do you have an alternative army? On the contrary, you will establish a Haredi army that will save us. I am sure that it will be run perfectly (like all Haredi institutions and municipalities). Sitting on the armchair and expecting others to do all the work to your satisfaction and pay for it with their blood so that you can benefit from doing your part, is a vicious evasion and not an argument.
And now I will end with what you would have considered an ‘ad hominem’ before the start of this lesson, and I hope you now understand that it is not: the fact that such simple things need to be explained at all, that it needs to be explained why these are stupid and evil arguments, the fact that someone in the universe sees them as eloquent and innovative and anyone who opposes them as brainwashed, all of this says something very bad about the thinking ability of the Haredim and those who buy their shills.
I hope I was clear despite my relationship with the ultra-Orthodox. I must say again that it is truly embarrassing and insulting to have such an unnecessary discussion against such stupid and evil arguments.
Isaac's lips answer truthfully.
Mikhi, first of all, thank you very much for your response and sorry if you bothered because of me or for me. May you be well. I will share with you that the truth is that since yesterday I was not calm and went to that Haredi again to make sure that I really had not been hypnotized, but unfortunately, truly unfortunately, he is simply right, a cold, respectful and honest analysis, I showed him your long response... and he responded calmly and mercifully about you and our entire public, which is captive to such a populist national concept, and I will write the main points of the matter: So I will address your response in a focused manner in order to investigate the will of God. First, regarding the ad hominem, I fail to understand your need as a mature and adult person to constantly attack and speak in such a pointed manner, are you wondering whether I am rude or stupid? (What, brother?) If I tell you that I have a hard time recognizing messages that are conveyed in a way that only or also does not refer to the substance of an argument but to the substance of the claimant, from your point of view, is this impudence or stupidity??? Brother, I was taught at home to speak respectfully to adults, but you simply write in the form of an attacked child or an arrogant patronizing professor.. (Forgive me, I hope you understand what I mean)… 2-Rabbi Michi, sorry, but are you asking me for examples of cases in which you did not write in the ad hominem sense? Man, everything you write against the Haredi is based first of all on introducing rude and patronizing slander and only then on content that pertains to the matter.. I don't understand what you don't understand… 3-Regarding your claim against the “Torah Magna and Matzala” Pay attention to how wrong you are, dear man (sources that I learned only today from that Haredi Jew from Beit Shemesh, and I will present them: Source 1 (To you) - Tractate Makot, page 10, p. 1 - On what would the feet of Israel stand in the war? Because the gates of Jerusalem were occupied with the Torah. Source 2 (To you) - Sanhedrin 40, p. 1 - "If it were not for David, Yoav would not have waged war" - Rashi explains, "If it were not for David, who was occupied with the Torah, and also in Maharashtrian 1, there on the spot. Source 3 (To you) - Baal Tourim on the verse in Numbers 27:23 - He commanded him not to nullify the Torah and always (sacrifice) because of the war. And Shapir Hazinan - Delimud The Torah is definitely an integral part of the war effort. Source D (to your detriment) - a very solid source! I was surprised to the depths of my soul to see this brilliance. Well, Zohar K’ “ Beshal” Daf Nach’ Pages 1’ B’ - with so much eloquence of language that there is no need for even a honey-sweet commentary, and thus it is written: Lit mila belma ditbar hilihon daamin bar habita d’Israel metachain orita Torah (Yaminah) ittakat va ittakat hila va agta daamin” - There is nothing in the world that breaks the armies of Israel’s enemies like the Torah business of the people of Israel that breaks and protects Israel in times of war… See there the words of Rabbi Elazar K’ - that what protects Israel is like seminaries and churches filled with Torah study And prayer... [It turns out that the Haredi perspective that I despised until yesterday is based on an explicit Zohar and other clear and accurate sources, crazy, this simply embarrasses me] Source 5 (to deceive you) - Midrash Tanhuma Matot 3 - It is told about Moses who sent 12,000 army pioneers and stationed 12,000 worshipers against them (not exactly Torah, but the same idea of protection in the spiritual sense) Source 6 (to deceive you) - Zohar “Beha'o'latach” page 199, page 1 - Zebulun went out to battle Issachar in the tent of Torah and after the war Zebulun gave some of the spoils they had looted from the enemies to Issachar, while Issachar gave some to Zebulun, some of the right to study Torah, which is above all else, it is written there in the Zohar K. Source 7 (to be mistaken) see the answer to Or-Semach, section 67, and also in the State Laws of Rabbi Waldenberg, the late. So for me, as a seeker of truth who does not want to be fixed on a particular view because that is how I was raised, I care what the Torah of the one who said and the world would say - things seem unequivocal that there is an integral security contribution to the security of the people of Israel and the success of the Israeli soldiers. -Now, regarding your words that the Haredim themselves do not believe in this and they go to the doctor and so on -when I showed this to my dear friend, he smiled and said, "Mercy - look how much anger blinds my clever eyes" (because I showed him your content and claimed that you are definitely a smart person but mentally captive, and all this for what? Because either you did not read the words of the above friend or you simply did not understand, what is the connection???? Who said that only Torah students are needed??? The Haredim do not claim that soldiers are not needed,,, brother!! All they claim is that the Torah of Israel guides and teaches us that the war formation consists of two fronts, (a)-the front of the fighting force! (b)-the front of the learning force. So of course they go to the doctor, but with the recognition that a doctor without prayer and the right to study Torah is much less of a healer.. -Regarding your claims and the parables, which are so unlike the parable you brought, I have no motivation to comment. I don't know. Your writing style really bothers me.,, but on the contrary, if this sharpens the issue so that we follow the path of God more precisely, I will bother myself as His Honor probably did. The claims that this is cruelty and the like are emotional, stemming mainly from a lack of comprehensive observation and understanding, the Haredim do not claim, “what does it matter I have a t’mizrohnik’s and t’hilweinisher’s who will die in my place… Absolutely not. Rather, the question is asked here how we (that is, the Haredim) express the command of God in the world in a time of war and danger like this? In our eyes, there are fronts, both spiritual and physical, so let's go create them, and here the Haredi leadership stops, and says “the moment the physical contribution to the security of the people of Israel (which consists largely of soldiers who do not risk their lives but in various combat support functions and the like; and not as you presented it in a demagogic and baseless manner) is functioning, there are enough fighters who repay this debt, (and as mentioned, there are few emotional claims from media people Secular ones such as "dead and killed", first of all, because if so, then you will also claim this towards all the thuggish cooks in the IDF, the mechanics who can hold a mag, and the fitness instructors who can be effective negativists!!, and you do not claim this because you understand that the parameter and the measure is not dead or not dead, taking risks or not, but rather contributing, effective or not contributing and not effective, so just as you define the mechanic in the Gaza Division who replaces a pivot in the wheel of the armored tank of the Rotem Battalion or 890, as contributing, even though he does not take risks, and although he could both physically and in terms of the Kabbalah and the DfR be a fighter.) And here the Haredi Jewish greats ask (I became convinced today from a conversation with that same Abrech that there is no "Great men" are not Haredi and the rabbi, the late Ateret Roshonu, was the last "Great Israel" whose views were not Haredi. So then, who would volunteer to fill the ranks of the "Student Army," and it is true that a third of Torah students are needed in times of war [and what if the honorable Rabbi Haggai Lundin quoted the Yerushalmi in the chapter "Not to learn Halacha from legends?" Forgive me, my honor, but the words of the Maharishi are alive and well, which are certainly learned, and many bodies of law are learned from the midrash and legends, and the intention of the Yerushalmi in not to learn Halacha from legends, that is, in legends spoken as a sermon to strengthen the people, is also explained in the Torah in the Sufisms. [Yet, of course, we learn, except when there is a contradiction to the familiar], so who will volunteer for the army of learners? The Haredim say to themselves - "We" and indeed I prayed with him in some evening kollel in Beit Shemesh and I have never seen such a fire of Torah, sorry to say but unlike our midrashts who sit with unfiltered tablets reading a halakhic article on the "Kippa" website while advertisements for women pop up, or who study but like in a city library, low voices, an academic atmosphere :(( Yes, there are also fire of Torah in the G-d but there is nothing at all to compare to what the poor of today have seen... It always saddened me but I was consoled that after all our great rabbis with their hacked smartphones do not protest... and also because I believed that this is the case in all places, so far the halakhic consideration and technical analysis of The Haredi rabbis. And I asked him what you would do if all the predictions come true and you receive the keys to the state when you become the majority?? Who will be in the army? So he told me that most of the army, like most of society, will certainly be from the Haredi community, and as mentioned, in addition, they will provide a soldier of students... - Now, regarding what you rejected by saying that it is evil and stupid and other slanders that are so unflattering to you as an adult and a genius, I would even say... when they claim that the army is secular and progressive and therefore the "non-students" will not be sent... I have no motivation to argue with facts, this is a fact that I have personally experienced, the data is well known, the subject is chewed from all sides, the IDF is an educational and social melting pot even before it is a security organization (and if I exaggerated what I said before, at least You claim that you also have arguments against the IDF and you and I enlisted even though we recognized the fact that we might pay with our lives, so why do they embellish and refuse to pay, especially when it comes to damage to spiritual life (and especially when they are concerned with doubting damage as you define it) and not damage to life itself, which means death. So here is an argument based on a false assumption, which is that physical death is worse than spiritual death, so why are we willing to pay even for physical death and they are not even willing to pay for spiritual death???? A good argument, but a distorted assumption, explained the same elder that the Torah view is that there is no purpose and value in the life of the body if not as a tool and means for spiritual life, that is, without the yiddishkayit “why-me-life” and he brought a lot of references to this, and the best known of all is Ha Daita in Midrash Rabbah 2a’ D’-“The one who has sinned is greater than the one who has been killed” This one (the murderer) was persecuted from this world, and this one (the one who has sinned) was persecuted from both this world and the next.. Therefore, Rabbi Michai… forgive me.. One last thing that the Abraach told me to answer you - that throughout your response you use the concepts of “holding a state” economy” “industry” But we (the Abraach told me) do not see any value in a political establishment of this type whose main goal is to shape the Jewish people and bring the new Jewish Jew to the stage of history. On the contrary, we wish that this institution would disintegrate, just as every religion would wish if it were freed from the ideological bubble in which it finds itself And understand that this is an auto-anti-Semitic society, both consciously and unconsciously, openly proclaiming heretics of sorts, fuck off, what did they do to our Yemeni Sephardic brothers? There's nothing to talk about... We, some of us, have already come from rotten places... The Ministry of Education puts Jewish youth, righteous girls and boys, and righteous babies who were captured, on the fire of its crematoriums every day, and shapes their consciousness into a secular, promiscuous Western, but that's not the way of Israel, my dear grandfather.. And therefore all your claims about it being evil to claim that if there is a shortage, there are enough secular people in the economy to fill the role, (“If so, why did you bother with us”) because there is a political need for them... only create a deaf discourse, because the Haredim not only do not recognize the value of the state, but they also hope for the day that this damned institution, which has burned and continues to burn more Jewish souls every day than all the bodies and organizations in the world, will be dismantled!!!!!!!!!!!! “Your destroyers and your destroyers will come out of you” (although the meaning of the verse is different from my usage of it)… One challenging claim - (said the Abraach) is truly a serious claim that even bothers him. “Provide an alternative” “Make your own army” Initiate Haredi frameworks” There is no such thing… It really is interesting why our Haredi rabbis are not such initiators… He told me that there was once a discourse about autonomy… And maybe it can be a little bit of a relief that the IDF is considered unreliable in its promises, and the empty promises that your public (we mean ours, the IDF) received from the IDF will testify to this [I remember now how they sent us a secular fitness instructor with a distinctly sexual appearance. I don't like to describe it, but how much it embarrassed and saddened us,,, and my coach, some idiot American from Gush Etzion, maybe from Efrat, I don't remember where, said that training is so that we will be strong to fight, and after all, Pikuach-Nefesh rejects all of the Torah, so he also rejects and permits fitness training with a beautiful Russian fisherwoman, hahaha, may God have mercy on us, how much it bothered me back then.) In addition to this, the "Blue Dawn" project In 2007, the recruitment of ultra-Orthodox (non-dropouts) was successful and gained momentum, and was cut short due to the demand of the gender advisor that it was impossible for the IDF, an army of a democratic country, to have a place where women did not enter. But the avrach still claimed that he himself did not understand why the ultra-Orthodox did not become a kind of authority for themselves, like the Palestinian Authority, and establish minimal defense systems, high-tech and an employment economy in a Jewish atmosphere, etc. In conclusion, I appreciate you because you are a dear man and even a sanctifier of the name of God. I even had a friend in the army who deserted and claimed that his recognition of the reality of God returned to him due to your content. I appreciate you, but in my case at least due to the enlightenment that I have been experiencing for the past month and even more so since meeting with that blessed one yesterday and today. You are misleading the many and giving a bad name to the section most faithful to the Torah of Israel - the “Haredi public”–
Erez Rubin, thank you for bringing this up. You reinforced my opinion that the arguments against conscription are empty.
You/he continues to recycle baseless claims. I will answer one more time and end with this.
Regarding my anger, if you didn't understand the obvious – I will explain. It is written from your haters that I will hate, and from this they learned that there is a duty to hate the wicked. And since the Haredim (as a group) are completely wicked (and the stupidity of their arguments probably stems from the need to protect their absurd and evil doctrine), it is commanded to hate them and so is providing an explanation. You don't calmly discuss their doctrine with Nazis or ISIS (although I am indeed in favor of answering them as foolish in a matter-of-fact manner, as long as they present arguments). But that has nothing to do with the content and clarity of the claims, in contrast to your and his demagogy.
Most of your words are a recycling of previous and very common, and very unintelligent, claims. There is nothing new under the sun here. Nevertheless, I decided to address it because you write that it is important to you and do not understand basic things (hypnosis?…).
2- So you did not bring examples. You probably did not understand the lesson on ad hominem.
3- The sources you brought are familiar and irrelevant. Although I wrote that I see no point in discussing the Torah Magna and Matzala, I will address it briefly.
Some of the sources talk about a description of a situation and not about general guidance (like source B. There is no instruction there on what to do, but a description of what happened there).
Some of the sources (like A) talk about the value of learning as it is, regardless of the provision of fighters to study instead of fighting. The intention is that the assistance we receive is so that we can have Torah study in general. This is the right of the Jewish people. What does that have to do with the provision of fighters to study instead of fighting?
There are sources from which it appears that this is also true during the war itself. But even there, the basic principle is that when there is a need for fighters, everyone who is needed is recruited. Beyond that, it is advisable to also place learners. Where did you get the absurd idea that when needed, fighters still give up some in order to study?
Beyond that, I explained that we have enough students even if the Haredim enlist for a year and study the rest of the time, and there are also the Hesder yeshivahs. I'm just reminding you that King David himself fought quite a bit. So bringing him evidence that one should study instead of fight is a joke. And all this about those who really study seriously, which is a small minority in the Haredi community, and even among those who attend yeshivahs and kollels. The vast majority of them leave the kollel as soon as they are freed from the burden of conscription, and for some reason then there is no longer any need to contribute to our defense by studying.
And finally, I explained that almost everyone accepts the exemption that will be given to a filtered number of serious students. So what is the argument about anyway? We are talking about those who do not study seriously or do not study at all, which is the absolute majority of the Haredim. You may have prayed evening prayers in Beit Shemesh, but I lived among them for many years. So please don't sell me any tricks. Just as an example, after studying half a day for five years, I started giving a lesson in the kollel to the born-again avrechich.
I am glad that I brought a smile to that hidden tzaddik's face. If you need to make an effort and learn, then you need to fight when you need to. And now you have to fight. I have already spoken about doses and timing.
The claims that this is cruelty are not emotional. Emotion expresses the essence. Those who rise up against the massacre of innocents are not making an emotional claim, but are expressing a moral claim emotionally. The same is true here. You repeat the mantra of two fronts, and I have already explained to you that it is irrelevant. What's more, dividing the fronts for some reason leaves them in the beit midrash and the others to die for them. I brought up the example of two in the beit midrash that you chose not to address (and for good reason).
The fact that there are soldiers who do not endanger themselves is well-known and clear. They are trying to filter them so that those who do not have a combat profile serve there. In any case, in the IDF, the ratio between combatants and support is the best among the armies in the world (!). And there is certainly no justification for placing an entire population group in the army that does not take risks. Those who are suitable will go to the Golani and the rest of the Haredi and non-Haredi will study Torah.
And indeed, I also claim this towards others who do not serve in a place where they could contribute more. But here it is an entire population that is being evasive as an ideology.
I can only laugh at the claim that there are no great ones who are not Haredi. It is clear that you are a complete Jew who has not read or studied, and so is your interlocutor. In my opinion, as someone who knows the Haredi world (and apparently also the Torah) much better than you, there are almost no Haredi Torah gurus. There are Haredi who possess quite a few sources and some even have good analytical skills. But greatness in Torah is far beyond donkeys carrying such books.
As for learning Halacha from legends, you are talking nonsense. But I will not get into that here.
Regarding the ’progressiveness’ I have already answered and there is no point in repeating. What you experienced in your own flesh is irrelevant and I explained why. I, too, have experienced similar things.
Regarding the greater number of those who have missed more than those who have been killed, I have already explained the futility of this.
Regarding maintaining a state and an economy, that idiot really does not understand what is being said to him. He does not want the state but is milking it as much as he can. So who will he milk if everyone is in the army to protect him? Who will maintain his kollel and subsidize daycare for his children? What does this have to do with the secularity of the state. After all, it would have been appropriate to act this way in Belgium as well. This is the infantile thinking of the haredim that I was talking about. Oh, how did we forget the children of Tehran? You are really ‘shaming the nationalists’.
You partially accepted the claim that they do not initiate haredim frameworks. But it is indicative of everything else. Since this is not happening, it is clear that all these stupid and evil claims are empty excuses for parasitic and evil behavior.
If this is the “most faithful to the Torah of Israel”, then you probably belong to one of the sects that is not very close to the Torah of Israel. Their crooked ’Torah’ is the last thing that can protect anyone (except for protecting their own lives because they do not enlist).
I hope you bought a subscription to Beit Shemesh. Have a good trip.
Of course, there was no reference to the example I gave and nothing about the lame excuse of concerns about spoilage.
And we haven't even started talking about the terrible blasphemy of the matter, how the Torah and the media are presented to the public (see So-and-so who studied Torah, how beautiful his deeds are). The sacred and shattered halakhic obligation to keep a third of the soldiers in the Torah army rejects blasphemy that has been more terrible than it has been since the creation of the world. An entire public in the name of the Torah and under the leadership of rabbis is meddling in a parasitic and dark, anti-moral way, and defending it with evil, vain arguments. This has never happened before. How beautiful the deeds of these Torah students are…
If I may make a few comments. I will just point out that I agree with a large part of what you said.
A. There is no doubt that if going to the doctor caused a clear questioning, then the Haredim would think ten times before each visit and would only do it in an extreme situation. That is why I do not understand this example every time, you are talking about a hypothetical situation. There is no evidence that the Haredim behave differently in a situation similar to the army.
B. Although the sources he cited speak of a given situation and not of a teaching, if the given situation is that because of Torah study people were saved in the war, is this not a given situation that can be learned from?
C. In continuation of the two sections – we need to discuss whether the army really needs another regular force today and this is a pikuach nefesh or not. Such an extreme case of war on several fronts is extremely rare and it is very doubtful if it will happen again. It is not for nothing that several divisions were closed down a few years ago.
D. It is not at all certain that the Da'tal would want to exchange Torah study with Haredim. For them, it is an ideal to fight and defend the country at the same time as studying.
E. You are absolutely right about the mass unemployment situation in the Haredi sector. It is very sad. The question is whether this is why everyone should be mobilized now, or whether we should overwhelm this problem and create tougher and more measured frameworks to strengthen Torah study (you can inform the Ministry of Religious Affairs about this and it will tighten its checks for receiving budgets, it will work great).
**with
It is permissible. 🙂
A. The doctor's example was not brought up as an analogy to our situation, and is not related to the question of spoilage. It is brought up in the context of a discussion on the Torah of Magna and Mitsla and the obligation to make efforts. These are two different arguments and should be discussed separately.
B. The given situation is that learning is important, and everyone treats it as they treat it. From this, deriving practical and general instructions for all situations is a joke. What's more, the entire treatment of legends is stupid Haredi treatment, as they are. Legends must be understood in their context. This is not a factual description of what happened and not a halakhic guideline. This is an indication of a general direction. See the Maimonides' introduction to the Mishnah on Three Sects in Understanding Legends.
C. War in general is a rare event. So perhaps we will not prepare for it. F. Again, childish Haredi thinking that does not understand how an army and a state are run. In the public, doubt is certain.
What's more, there is almost no disagreement about an exemption for a filtered group of students. That's not what the discussion is about.
D. I suggest asking them. There are also secularists who would like to switch. And the fact that for them fighting is an ideal is a problem for the ultra-Orthodox who distort the ideals, and therefore for them it is not an ideal.
E. No one is talking about conscripting everyone, except for the ultra-Orthodox who use this argument as passive aggressive (what's more, there is definitely justification for conscripting everyone).
As mentioned, I agree with some of the things, I'm not saying that because of these things you shouldn't enlist, but just to clarify some of the things you exaggerated.
C. War happened, is happening and will happen, and a multi-front ground war really won't necessarily happen (and as mentioned, the country didn't prepare for it either – because it closed divisions, maybe some others suffer from childish thinking).
D. I suggest you ask them too…
E. I meant all those idlers
You're just insisting. Especially after it's already clear that closing the divisions was a serious mistake.
Thank you for your patience in answering as stupid as they are.
It is quite obvious that the questioner “Erez Rubin” is a Haredi in disguise who considered himself a great genius and savior. His response to Rabbi Mechiy's answer is beyond any criticism. And perhaps it is worth noting how talented he is to the point that he memorized the entire content of the convoluted conversation he ”had” with that anonymous ”Averach”.
Dear Erez,
There is an important piece of information that is worth knowing when dealing with issues that depend on viewpoint - the viewpoint never stems from the sources. It stems from the heads and hearts of the great Torah scholars, and the sources serve as a reference for it.
The source of the viewpoint is intuition, common sense, strategy, and whatever you want, but not the words of the sages.
I will give two examples of this:
1. Age of marriage - In certain Lithuanian yeshivahs, they make sure that young men do not get engaged before and after Friday (sixth year) or after and after Thursday. There are good and innocent Jews who collect sources, from the sages onward, that one must marry by the age of 20, and they fail to understand the above-mentioned yeshivah heads, who go over what is explicitly written in the sources. But the explanation is that it is not the sources that determine the conduct (when it is not a matter of clear and explicit laws), but other considerations.
2. When the dispute between Degel HaTorah and the Jerusalem faction flared up, it was interesting to read the articles published by both sides. Both are wise, both are intelligent, both know the Torah, and each side enlisted the sages to help them. Of course, it is all a thorn in the flesh. This is a disagreement of opinion that has nothing to do with the sources.
The same is true of the issue of yeshiva recruitment. The source and reason for the Haredi opposition to yeshiva recruitment is in no way found in the sagas of the sages, neither those you mentioned nor in others. It is found in a completely different place.
I am not saying that they are wrong, I am just bringing it to your attention, because this is important and necessary information for those trying to understand the issue.
A small comment to Rabbi Michi,
I also think that your harsh words towards the Haredi public in general, have something in them that gives reason to blame and distracts the reader from the substance of the arguments. To be fair, your arguments and opinions would be much stronger and more acceptable if you had refrained from expressing your opinion on the person or public (“fool”, “idiot”, “evil”, “stupid”, etc.) This adds nothing to the discussion and even lowers the level a bit. The Mishnah says that a hater is prohibited from sitting in judgment on his friend who is hated, because judgment depends on judgment, and judgment can be biased when there is personal hatred. And here too, your claims, some of which are based on reason and judgment, can be interpreted as if they stem from personal hatred of the Haredi public, and not from pure judgment, and therefore lose some of their validity, and I say this precisely because I love reading your articles, but lately I feel like you are writing too harsh words,
For your attention 🙂
I took it. Thank you.
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