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Bull running

שו”תBull running
asked 6 years ago

Hello Rabbi
I don’t really understand what the explanation is that less protection is enough for a bull that is on the move?
Regards


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מיכי Staff answered 6 years ago

First of all, this is of course a three-way dispute of conditions. The opinion that timely maintenance is less than complete maintenance is simple. According to the law, half of the damage is a fine. In order to get rid of a fine, you need to have better maintenance than the one that exempts you from paying, mainly the law. When you are charged less, naturally more is required of you to get rid of it. The argument is that in any case, they made it easier for you, so if you still want to get rid of it completely, keep excellent maintenance.
In other words (roughly equivalent): If you kept a lesser guard, you are not wicked enough to be liable for full damage, but not righteous enough to be completely exempted (i.e., even from half the damage). Although one must add to the opinion here that the party that dies in its place stands. It seems reasonable to assume that a bull that is killed while keeping a lesser guard will not be completely exempted but will be liable for half the damage. And this must be rejected.


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נועם replied 6 years ago

Thank you very much.
That is, if I understand correctly, a tam ox does not need to be guarded at all, and yet the sages imposed a fine on it, so if I want to get rid of the fine, I must maintain excellent guarding. On the other hand, a tamed ox needs guarding and the requirement for me to guard it is less. My logic says that the more your wealth poses a greater danger to the public, the more you must guard it. Therefore, I would require excellent guarding. The explanation that a tam ox does not need guarding and therefore the obligation is only from the law of fines is also a bit incomprehensible. An ox is an animal that has the potential to cause harm to the public. Does the Rabbi see any logic in the fact that an ox does not need guarding at all? It seems to me that today a dog needs excellent guarding.

מיכי replied 6 years ago

Right, but the conclusion is wrong. Less protection is “like a human denarius” and therefore it is enough for the ox (even a moed) to be considered protected. But to get rid of the fine of half the damage, you need to be really righteous and maintain excellent protection.
It is not a question of how much protection the ox needs, but what protection justifies that we spare you and even exempt you from the fine.

Har'el Fishman replied 6 years ago

Apparently, the division is that in the case of a complete sentence, the basis for liability is because your sentence caused harm, whereas in the case of a term, the basis for liability is because you did not keep it.

מיכי replied 6 years ago

True (although there is some confusion about the Abkhaz investigation regarding tort claims), but that in itself requires an explanation.

Har'el Fishman replied 6 years ago

Because the obligation to guard the bull of the time of the festival is an explanation – this bull is close to causing harm, therefore guard it – and therefore the obligation is on the man. But in their opinion, half the damage is a fine which is a fine” which says that the one whose bull caused the damage must pay.
Apparently the intention of the Torah is that everyone should maintain excellent guard – therefore in their opinion we obligated the one who maintains lesser guard to pay, but in the time of the festival the Torah relies on the owner to maintain excellent guard (“just bulls with the assumption of sustainable guard” according to this opinion), both because this bull is close to causing harm and because he will pay the full amount of the damage that the bull will cause. In other words, the owner is already deterred.

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

Well, I've lost you. In a bullfight, anyone who keeps less guard is exempt, meaning that halachically, less guard is sufficient. So why assume in a stele that the owner will keep it in excellent guard? I've already explained that the Gemara states that the required guard is “kadantri inshi”, meaning less guard. But I think everything is clear now.

Har'el Fishman replied 6 years ago

Would it be conceivable that someone who has a tam bull and keeps it in excellent condition would reduce the level of care for the bull after it has been tamed?
Why would he do this, is it because the halacha no longer requires him to pay?! After all, this is the opinion of the Rabbi, who believes that ”tam bulls are subject to the presumption of permanent maintenance”, that is, he trusts the owner to take care of his bull even before the Torah required damages to be paid for them! So your question is not for me, but for the Rabbi.

מיכי Staff replied 6 years ago

I think you're completely confused here. But everything has been explained. Just innocent bulls under the presumption of conservation but not tripping. And the presumption of conservation is not only because the owner is a guardian but also because there is no fear that they will be gored. Okay, we've exhausted it.

פשיטא replied 6 years ago

Where does this concept of half damage come from? Isn't it permissible to sell the live bull and the dead bull and divide the money? That is, both will receive the same amount. That is, no one is held guilty of the bull hitting, and both share the extent of the damage equally.
And in the case of a bull, the penalty is that he gives him the live bull and he receives the dead bull.

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